Thorens TD150 refurb

[rusty bearing]

Well, I got me a sad looking TD 150 Turntable. No armboard, no lid, but thats Ok as the bearing and motor are good. so now for the refurb. It'll take a while to decide the actual design of the new plinth, some sort of cover, descision on arm, cart etc.
I've spent some time researching all this before taking the plunge but I'd welcome any hints,tips, relevant websites etc from those who have been down this road before me.....:)

I'll post photos as it progresses if anyone is interested?

[Pete The Cat]

A few months of fun await. I began a similar journey with a Garrard at the back end of last year and it's very rewarding. Look forward to seeing your photos...

Pete

[DSJR]

See if you can download a setup manual for the venerable fruitbox Linn LP12. If you treat the TD150 in a broadly similar way regarding arm-cable dressing and clamping to the new plinth and obviously the suspension and bearing fettling too (EP80 makes an excellent replacement oil for these bearings IMO)..

A decent mat would be to advantage. I respect the old Td124 multi-ribbed mat, but the later 150/160/125 mat isn't too hot in terms of record support. My advice is to avoid felt mats, as I think summat a bit more substantial suits the deck's sonics better - IMO...

Plinths? An old LP12 plinth is ideal and the 150 chassis drops straight in (:lol:). The fixings are slightly different and there will be a gap alongside the armboard, but it works a treat.. Russ Collinson does some nice new ones I believe too.

Good luck - and piccies please once you get going.

[Rare Bird]

The best bit will be getting the deck out of it's original plinth, see the metal top plate is screwed into the plinth with countersunk wood screws then a thin aluminium laminate glued on top, you will without a doubt damage the laminate.

[rusty bearing]

Thanks guys. Some useful info there. Definitely agree with the view on mats.
I'm planning on making a new plinth in oak so it sounds like I'll have to come up with either a clever way of not damaging the ally laminate or a 'Plan B'.:scratch:

[Moko]

To lift off the aluminium cover can sometimes be easy mine was only held down with double sided tape so only took a thin metal scraper underneath to lever it off, others I've heard are glued down so you would have to use a heat gun / hairdrier to loosen it enough to get some leverage on it.


If you need any advice PM me I might with my limited experience have some useful info:)

Good luck with your rebuild and post some pics for us to see how you get along.

[rusty bearing]

'The Project' is now in bits on the desk in't office. I was lucky that the thin ally plate was held by double sided tape, thin blade and some Goo Gone soon sorted that!
The motor spins up quietly and the bearing and spindle are in fine nick with no scoring at all:)
I've done a bit of polishing on the side of the platter, bit more to acheive the final finish though.
Got my hands on some oak today, left over bits from one of last years jobs that was lingering in the customers woodshed so thats the next job. Make armboard and plinth and mount the SME arm I've picked up. It's the 3009 improved S2 which will have a rewire and phono plug conversion so I can use my existing interconnects.

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9121/p1020645u.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/830/p1020645u.jpg/)
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I've spent some time reading about these arms and while not the best thought of it should do what I want as I'll be using MM cartridges, possibly a Grado. Till then I'll have to use an old Linn K9. Not ideal but I can fudge it for a while.

Any views on cart matching with this arm welcome......:cheers:

[DSJR]

The "Improved" S2 SME will take all sorts very well IMO, depending on headshell fitted. My choice would be something like an SAS tipped Shure, but any mid compliance mm type should be great - possibly a Sumiko BPS on a Jelco headshell.

The only Grado's worth looking at are the top-line reference ones IMO. All the others are DULL, DULL, DULL - IMO :)

Don't get anything that tracks much over 1.5g, as dynamic wow will start to rear it's ugly seasick head. These decks work a treat with 1 to 1.5g trackers, hence the Shure suggestion...

[Pete The Cat]

I've done a bit of polishing on the side of the platter, bit more to acheive the final finish though.


Following progress with interest. Bit of an understatement above though - I can almost see MY face in the reflection ! Great finish.

Pete

[rusty bearing]

Ah well it looks mirror finish but can see imperfection when it turns and that will annoy the hell out of me. Got this finish in about 1/2 hour with a spiral sewn cotton wheel on the bench grinder using a white grade polishing wax.

Dave, I have considered the question of compliance and tracking, the SME seems to have been built very much with the venerable V15 in mind and I see glowing reports of the SAS stylus fitted in one of these. So if I can lay my hands on a Mk3 at reasonable cost.......:)

Otherwise the Grado reference platinum 1 seemed to fit bill. It would be great if we could try these things out, like amps or whatever, before buying. Do dealers have demo carts I wonder?:scratch:

[Rare Bird]

Try giving it a good polish then scrub it in washing up liquid & sponge then buff back up with duster, see if the patches go... Looks like a 'TD150 Mk.II A/B' !

[rusty bearing]

Ta I'll try that. I think it's only some of the residue that I've missed.
Its a Mk.II but whether A/B I don't know, didn't that come without an arm so you could add what you wanted.
If I had to guess I'd say the owner of this had sold the old armboard and tonearm separately but as I only wanted the bits I've got, no problem.

[Rare Bird]

Yes thats what i'll be, soapy water should get it off :)

'A' with arm/No base, 'B' without arm/With base.. I see the arm cue..I much prefer the Mk.I with the alloy lift & turn knob

[DSJR]

Ah well it looks mirror finish but can see imperfection when it turns and that will annoy the hell out of me. Got this finish in about 1/2 hour with a spiral sewn cotton wheel on the bench grinder using a white grade polishing wax.

Dave, I have considered the question of compliance and tracking, the SME seems to have been built very much with the venerable V15 in mind and I see glowing reports of the SAS stylus fitted in one of these. So if I can lay my hands on a Mk3 at reasonable cost.......:)

Otherwise the Grado reference platinum 1 seemed to fit bill. It would be great if we could try these things out, like amps or whatever, before buying. Do dealers have demo carts I wonder?:scratch:



Now you've polished that platter, you'll be doing it for years to come ;)

Dealers don't have the stock, time, or inclination for cartridge dems these days, because it's about one in a thousand clients who are interested. Why do you think the second-hand market is so buoyant these days and the mid-range HiFi market so dead?

An SAS V15 III will be fine, as will the Stanton 681EEE mk3 and related Pickering XV15/757S at £130 I think. Still not sure about the cheaper Nagaoka's, as they still seem to hint at greatness but never quite get there :scratch:

[DSJR]

Yes thats what i'll be, soapy water should get it off :)

'A' with arm/No base, 'B' without arm/With base.. I see the arm cue..I much prefer the Mk.I with the alloy lift & turn knob

Nah, I preferred the mk2 with balls on the arm and a remote cueing control on the top plate. Far less risk of jogging the stylus ;)

[Rare Bird]

Your pulling my leg? That 'TP13a' would be the first thing i'd remove from the deck, the Mk.I pull & turn knobs are far superior quality to the Mk.II..

[Beobloke]

I'm with Dave on this one - the TP13a fitted to the Mk2s is a surprisingly competent bit of kit. Better than the bias-free clunk-fest fitted to the Mk1s.

Oh, and that lift/twist knob was 'orrible!

[Barry]

Hello Mike,

You have an interesting project there. Having lived with a Thorens TD150 fitted with an SME arm, I'd like to add my comments to those already posted.

First, I wouldn't bother trying to find a Mk III version of the SME. You already have a good, and versatile, arm in the Mk II (improved) with detachable headshell. This arm is perfectly suitable for use with cartridges having a compliance of up to 30cu, and should you wish to use low compliance moving coils, you can experiment with heavier third party headshells.
I'm not sure how deep you intend making your new plinth but if you intend the new plinth to retain the same slim depth, the SME needs to have the horizontal entry arm cable fitting. I would thoroughly recommend replacing the 5 contact Belling and Lee connector with RCA phono sockets. This will, as you say, allow you to use your own interconnects but these must be thin and very flexible; otherwise you will upset the deck suspension. Also be aware the total dead weight of a Series II SME is considerably greater than that of the Thorens arm, for which the deck was designed. This will require readjustment of the deck suspension springs.

There is very little difference between the mat of the TD150 and that of the TD124, so I wouldn't worry about changing it. Anyway, the way the two mats fit around the centre spigot is slightly different.

Finally, at the risk of being pedantic, the TD150 designated the motor alone, without arm or plinth, the TD150A was the motor with arm (A) and the TD150AB was the complete assembly of motor, arm and fitted in a plinth (or base (B)). This designation also applied to the TD125 design, contemporary with the TD150.

Regards

[rusty bearing]

Gosh! Lots of info and points of view here today...
I might be swaying to the view that a Shure V15 Mk.III + SAS might be the way to go. Moving coil perhaps in the future but thats the benefit of detachable headshells.
I'm also considering rewiring the arm to phono plugs on a plate mounted on the rear of the new plinth but would the tonearm wires need shielding from leaving the base of the arm to the plugs?
It would negate any effect on the springing by interconnects otherwise its a conversion on the arm itself and a dogleg in the cables to the amp. The plinth will be a bit deeper than the old one anyway so space will not be a problem. Around 100mmm seems a good place to start.

[DSJR]

I'm with Dave on this one - the TP13a fitted to the Mk2s is a surprisingly competent bit of kit. Better than the bias-free clunk-fest fitted to the Mk1s.

Oh, and that lift/twist knob was 'orrible!

People are ditching Lenco L75/78 tonearms because they think they're rubbish too. OK, they're not Jelco 750's, but they're darned good if you get the cartridge right and Marco's pet cheapies, together with the more upmarket versions, are ideal ;)

[stewartwen]

www.theanalogdept.com for all your Thorens questions!
S

[rusty bearing]

A little progress, the sound damping is in place. As cost is a consideration at the present time I had as Michael Caine would have said,
"a great idea"
There is in the loft a roll of underfloor sound deadening underlay @ 3mm thick so this has been pressed into service. I did the top plate as well but have removed some as it interfered witht the 'bounce. :doh:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2674/p1020654.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/p1020654.jpg/)
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Spent a little time putting some oak throught the thicknesser and routing it up to take away some of the simplicity. Glued and cramped it up and just talken it out, diagonals perfect and no twist. If it rains tommorrow as promised I can sand it up indoors, add the supports, an IEC socket and see how it all looks.:)

Finally for the base panel I had a kitchen door that had been drilled incorrectly, not by me for once! 22mm thick very dense MDF. I think the base will be fairly solid with this in it plus more sound damping on it....

[flatpopely]

I'm late to this thread but I rebuilt a TD150 20 years ago. Here is what I did and when finished it was very close to my mates new LP12/Ittok.

1. Strip and clean the whole deck
2. Get a new hardwood plinth - local cabinet maker did this
3. Get an old LP12 armboard and cut to fit 150 plinth
4. DID NOT APPLY DAMPING ANYWHERE.
5. Fit an LVX/Basik Plus ot RB250/300
6. Fit an AT95 cart

Sounded ace.

[DSJR]

You could always find a clean old LP12 plinth and just graft an LP12 armboard straight on. Fools a good few :lol:

Great old deck, but prices are rapidly following Lencos now :(

[rusty bearing]

It is as you say Dave, a lovely old deck though I believe the prices have started moving up because the 301's 401's Lenco's et al are simply more than most (meaning me) are prepared to pay so naturally look around for something more affordable (cheap!).

Wonder what will be next?:scratch:

Linn plinth? Could do but I'm happy making my own, its half the fun. Besides I've been a joiner now for more years than I care to remember so I can't really take the easy way can I?:lol:
I have run out several arm-boards though with the thought that I can try more than one arm /cart combination, pennies permitting of course.

[DSJR]

Ah, I didn't know you were a joiner;) Might be another nice man for us to know here :lol:

See if you can get a looky at the innards of a typical Linn plinth. The battens look a bit flimsy, but have always been stapled and glued to the hardwood frame. The huge corner fillets were a definite improvement as before, the frame could "boing" a bit like a tambourine. The two mounting blocks on the LP12 plinths of ancient times were very variable in hardness and this, coupled with the sometimes lop-sided "squareness," made for lop sided top plates which dipped excessively, put the spring-bolts out of parallel and caused all manner of setup issues - we were master setter-uppers back then :)

I'm only telling you this so you can design and build these things out of your TD150 plinth. Get the top plate sitting naturally square and true on each corner and firmly attached in the Thorens mounting points. make sure the suspension bolts are parallel (Linn made a tool for this which works well) and, when you reassemble the suspension parts, a smear of talc may not go amiss, as it will be easier to rotate the springs to get the suspension centered and bouncing properly - it should bounce vertically piston-like with no shimmy or lateral shaking.

Thorens original belts can easily be got now. Other pattern belts are often too thick and pull the suspension over. The proper ones have "Thorens" written on the outside. My favoured lube for the mainbearing is EP80, as it's dead cheap and viscous enough for the ball and thrust plate at the bottom. There are other fancy types which I'm sure are fine as well and I think my 125 may have something fancy in it, although I haven't drained it to find out. I believe Thorens used a turbine oil, which smelled like thinner EP80 to be honest. I tend to part fill the bearing LP12 style, mopping up any excess which comes out and allowing for the inevitable hydraulic lock one gets with these older decks, the platter taking ages to sink back down into position.

Andrew's advice re arms is excellent, as these weigh the right amount and won't overload the springs (the mass is too low for Linn springs IMO). The ubiquitous SME models (9") should be fine too, if you want a period feel...

More pics please as setup progresses :)

[rusty bearing]

I've got the thing sat in its old plinth beside me as I speak. Talced and cleaned the springs last week, With the SME temporarily mounted it levels up nicely and 'quivers' for @12 seconds. Nice vertical bounce.
The setup seems quite easy or maybe I'm just lucky;)
Anyway by end next week I reckon I'll have it running to see what it sounds like, then maybe think about rewireing the arm to some phono sockets after some soldering practice. :)



Do you mean EP80 as in Castrols transmission fluid?

[Alex_UK]

Do you mean EP80 as in Castrols transmission fluid?

Don't go wasting your money on Castrol - Halfords' own is fine. :) (about £8 and a bottle will last a lifetime - probably 2!)

[Rare Bird]

The area most dudes buying an old 'TD150' go wrong imho, is they tend to remake the plinth to the original, hence retaining the narrow armboard instead of re working the design to take a wider board... When removing the original armboard you will discover the replacement will require a small rebate underside.

[rusty bearing]

The area most dudes buying an old 'TD150' go wrong imho, is they tend to remake the plinth to the original, hence retaining the narrow armboard instead of re working the design to take a wider board... When removing the original armboard you will discover the replacement will require a small rebate underside.

Absolutely. If starting from scratch make it a bit bigger. My only worry would be at what point does this start to affect the springs ability to balance the weight?

There weren't no board with this one but I believe the originals were 81mm wide and 10mm thick? Anyway I made the new ones at 91 x 12.5 and length of top plate -4mm just to give more, and this is a technical term here, 'wiggle room' :lol:

[rusty bearing]

A long time ago and probably far away in a land that time forgot etc I used to browse the mags and lust after a Pink Triangle or an LP12. Never could afford one with mortgages, family and so on.....

If you wonder " is that relevant?" then read on;

Its been a bit quiet in the work dept and I hate having nothing to do so 'the project' has been quietly moving on. In fact I reached a point where I just had to plug it in and see how it sounds with a bog standard 3009 imp S2 arm and a Shure V15 MK.II:)
I'd checked the arm over and found the earth had separated from its tag inside the can, other than that it seemed passably OK. Soldered back and tested everything for continuity. Resistance values were all at at between 69-74 milli-ohm, acceptably close.
So having unplugged the trusty Pro-ject.......
A bit more hum than expected led to checking connections, blue wire at the headshell wasn't fitted properly (it's the eyes you know, not what they were).
I'd set the TT springs t'other day so only the arm setup remained. Easy enought to do. Set to track at 1.5g initially. All ready, lets reach for Plainsongs In search Of Amelia Earhart and sit back.....:cool:

The immediate difference to the Pro-ject with it's Ortofon 2M is in the more mellow tone, my ears are saying I like this, lets have more! Then the icing on the cake. SWMBO comes in, a confirmed philistine regarding Hi-Fi, and says
"Oooh that sounds really nice"

Joy unbounded, if she can tell the difference it must be good.:eyebrows:
I reckon I'm getting I might close to those iconic decks of my youth.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6437/p1020674m.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/p1020674m.jpg/)
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Now I need to build me a small setup rig a la Linn to set everything properly and track down or make some decent TT feet. In time I hope to strip rewire and service the tonearm, remake the armboard as I'm not happy with how it looks. I originally thought it would be better with the arms baseplate as I've set it, now I'm not so sure but its only an aesthetic thing

[Moko]

Wow that looks great.:) it's funny I think there's going to be real revival in cheap HiFi as there's loads of blokes with more time on their hands than they had previously and want something to keep them busy...I know because I'm another one.

[rusty bearing]

Thanks dave, I must admit to feeling just a little smug. I'm quite enjoying having more time, although Mrs bearing tells me to stop being annoying and "find something to do". Of course then she tracks me down and says " you were too quiet, I thought you were up to something"
Can't win can we:lol:

[rusty bearing]

Well, it's been running happily since August and I've thoroughly enjoyed spinning the vinyl and listening with renewed interest, anyway....
Stumbled across an SME 3009 MK 3 'earthing can' (is that right?) for, given what they pay on auction sites, very little money. This as you know has the phono sockets in place so a simple case of unsoldering the old and inserting the new, a job which went very easily in the end.
I haven't rewired the arm yet and now i have my custom made Klotz I/c's plugged in I may not bother. It really is sounding sweet, I played the old Tubular Bells album earlier, quite rich but you can follow every instrument individually and the low notes on the synthesiser (I 'm assuming) just growl away.
After Mrs bearing has watched the football I'm going to spin some more,could be a late night......:):):)

[Rare Bird]

'3009 Mk3'!!!

[rusty bearing]

Or possibly Series III:doh:

[Rare Bird]

Yes Series 'III' screening can