View Full Version : Valve amps can sound louder than transistor ones???
I do hope this is allowed, because it's a subject that's come up before - and because we have engineers posting here, I'm hoping that they'd contribute :)
Nicked from the WTF forum - sincere thanks to "Globs" for posting this and hope he? doesn't mind... The OP has fairly efficient speakers but his 50W Moon amp distorts when the volume is turned up to 12 o'clock, making the sound harsh-toned.
"RE: How many watts do you need?
An oscilloscope will be far better - but more people have a meter
An issue is also 'what is true power'? Most transistor amps have deep feedback loops inside that need headroom to work, so at max output power there isn't much room left for them to keep control.
Also there is the power bandwidth issue - how much power is available at 30Hz compare to 1kHz?
Then there is compression - look inside a modern amp and see the size of the power transformer, it's usually pretty small. You can have an amp that can deliver it's supply rail power with ease, and one that is straining at every point at the power rail level. They have the same power on paper, but one will sound far more powerful than the other.
Tube amps are a case in point, a 40Watt tube amp will sound far louder, with far better bass and far more dynamic than a 40Watt solid state amp, because it's generally going to have a 300VA power transformer rather than an 80 or 100VA one. My 10W(ish) SEP amp's transformer is about the size of a 60W solid state transformer.
The only time you'll need more power is with less efficient speakers - where the designer has traded bass response for efficiency. Take a typical 85dB/Watt speaker with a 50W amp - you get 102dB max (with 1kW you'd get 115dB). Compare that to a pro-audio 96dB/Watt speaker - you will get the same volume with 4W. That's FOUR Watts! To reach 115dB you'd need 80.6W - rather than 1kW. Speaker efficiency is king, your amp choice is a lot better and bigger with efficient speakers, which is one reason I like the big Tannoy dual concentrics etc!"
IMHO, you can't check power just with a meter. You need some way of checking the distortion level.
Many low power valve amp owners especially low or zero feedback ones are running them to regularly go into clipping on transients, but because of the soft clipping nature of those amps it tends not to be noticed, so they can produce a higher average power output before the clipping is noticed.
And I say this as someone who makes and prefers valve amps. I have said before that I strongly believe most SET's that people use are underpowered, if a 300b needs to produce more than 0.5W its the wrong valve, 0.25W for a 2a3 and so on. You only realize this when you listen to a amp with the same qualities as a low power set, on the same high efficiency speakers, but with 20W or so on hand.
All IMHO of course.
selfaddict
07-08-2011, 11:41
Hi Nick.
Do you mean 0.5W for 'constant' power required by the speakers. What I meant that amplifier will cope most of the music with giving output power of 0.5W per channel? So for 300B SET you would prefer to have around 9W per channel headroom to minimize clipping/distortion?
Juha
And I say this as someone who makes and prefers valve amps. I have said before that I strongly believe most SET's that people use are underpowered, if a 300b needs to produce more than 0.5W its the wrong valve, 0.25W for a 2a3 and so on. You only realize this when you listen to a amp with the same qualities as a low power set, on the same high efficiency speakers, but with 20W or so on hand.
All IMHO of course.
Yes, if at normal listening volume the average power the amp is producing is say 0.5W then you will have enough headroom for most peaks. Its not a hard and fast rule, but all other things being equal if you want to use a 300b, 94dB/W speakers are a minimum sensitivity.
Thats Just IMHO of course.
selfaddict
07-08-2011, 12:50
Can this be measured in any way or are we just relying knowing the sensitivity of the speakers and the output power of the power amp and making the judgment using these figures?
Yes, if at normal listening volume the average power the amp is producing is say 0.5W then you will have enough headroom for most peaks. Its not a hard and fast rule, but all other things being equal if you want to use a 300b, 94dB/W speakers are a minimum sensitivity.
Thats Just IMHO of course.
Leaving extremes out for a second, reproduction of piano and choral music can often easily show up clipping issues in many amps. percussive music in general isn't so much of an issue I found, unless you listen at extremely high levels. These days, I play music rather quietly (honest Alex ;)) and the 12W from my particular pair of Quad II's is more than ample.
greenhomeelectronics
13-08-2011, 09:11
This is a massively complex subject, the debate about how to measure power has raged for years and will continue to do so. The big problem is that music creates a complex wave form. In a lab you can measure power by using sinusoidal signals, you can measure impedance and current in very controlled circumstances but in the real world few people get their kicks by listening to sine waves (except the Stig- some say he loves it). While power is important he most important thing to consider is sound pressure level. We can measure sensitivity in speakers and power from amplifiers but the two factors have to be considered together if we are to quantify perceived volume. The environment in which the equipment is installed is also a massive influence - 2 watts in a tiny room may seem as loud as 10 watts in a medium sized room.
Our own valve amp was largely tested and perfected on my home made transmission line speakers, I had no way of knowing what sensitivity they were so I compared them with other speakers of known sensitivity and reckon they are about 96db, maybe a bit more. At 4 watts per channel in triode mode they are what I would describe as "comfortably loud" in my 15 ft square lounge. The peaks in power would be significantly more than that, but 4 watts was the RMS reading from my Technics integrated power meter.
There is a lot of crap out there regarding output power- the most extreme example I saw was a home cinema system with an advertised 1200 Watts. It turned out to be peak music power that actually worked out at under 10 watts RMS per channel.
One of the best set ups I ever heard was in the smallest listening room I have ever seen and a 4 watt per channel valve amp fed off an ancient FM tuner.
Just my 2p worth.
Dave.
anthonyTD
13-08-2011, 09:30
IMHO, you can't check power just with a meter. You need some way of checking the distortion level.
Many low power valve amp owners especially low or zero feedback ones are running them to regularly go into clipping on transients, but because of the soft clipping nature of those amps it tends not to be noticed, so they can produce a higher average power output before the clipping is noticed.
And I say this as someone who makes and prefers valve amps. I have said before that I strongly believe most SET's that people use are underpowered, if a 300b needs to produce more than 0.5W its the wrong valve, 0.25W for a 2a3 and so on. You only realize this when you listen to a amp with the same qualities as a low power set, on the same high efficiency speakers, but with 20W or so on hand.
All IMHO of course.
Totally agree!
A...
anthonyTD
13-08-2011, 09:52
hi All,
there are of course other reasons why valve amp designs sound more powerfull and seem to project sound far better watt for watt than a similar solid state amp.
A few reasons are, voltage rails, valves are generally high voltage devices, solid state are generally run at much lower voltage but higher current.
Feedback is another, valves are inherently very linear without feedback, a lot of solid state devices need feedback around each device to linearise them, valves usualy only need nominal over-all feedback to linearise for a specific frequency response, distortion, and damping factor.
If we look at why the voltage a device runs on plays such a significant part in audio, here is an example [its not exact before i get slated, its just an example] if you took two cross bows, one with a tension on the bow 10 times larger than the other, fire this first one into a target 10 meters away and measure how long it takes to hit the target, then fire the second one, [the one with the least tension] both arrows hit the target, but the speed of each one is greatly diffrent, as stated both arrows hit the target, but the energy tranfer with the higher tension bow is greater than the weaker one although both arrows still hit the target in exactly the right spot.
now compare this to valve amps and solid state and it can be understood why valve amps in genral sound more powrfull watt for watt, they transfer the given audio signal energy more effortlessly, thus dynamics are transfered with almost all the original impact.
all this is of course IMHO, but i hope it may help.
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 10:15
hi All,
there are of course other reasons why valve amp designs sound more powerfull and seem to project sound far better watt for watt than a similar solid state amp.
A few reasons are, voltage rails, valves are generally high voltage devices, solid state are generally run at much lower voltage but higher current.
Feedback is another, valves are inherently very linear without feedback, a lot of solid state devices need feedback around each device to linearise them, valves usualy only need nominal over-all feedback to linearise for a specific frequency response, distortion, and damping factor.
If we look at why the voltage a device runs on plays such a significant part in audio, here is an example [its not exact before i get slated, its just an example] if you took two cross bows, one with a tension on the bow 10 times larger than the other, fire this first one into a target 10 meters away and measure how long it takes to hit the target, then fire the second one, [the one with the least tension] both arrows hit the target, but the speed of each one is greatly diffrent, as stated both arrows hit the target, but the energy tranfer with the higher tension bow is greater than the weaker one although both arrows still hit the target in exactly the right spot.
now compare this to valve amps and solid state and it can be understood why valve amps in genral sound more powrfull watt for watt, they transfer the given audio signal energy more effortlessly, thus dynamics are transfered with almost all the original impact.
all this is of course IMHO, but i hope it may help.
Anthony,TD...
I am sorry Anthony but you really should know this is cobblers. High voltage has nothing to do with it as your high voltage is low current and my low voltage is high current, that is the way the game is played and there is no difference in the end, and anyway in the end you have to become the same as me by using an output transformer. That original article posted by the OP is bollocks. It is like comparing apples with pears, how many different varieties of apples and pears are there? do they all taste the same.
Feedback is a red herring you can design both valve and solid state amps with loads of feedback - with no feedback - or with localised feedback - IT DEPENDS ON THE DESIGN.
If there is an inherent difference between valve and solid state then it is usually tonality, usually due to the output transformer. BUT Tim de P used to play games with this because he got so pissed off with ignorant people. So he would deliberately design valve amps that sounded like the so called sound of solid state amps and visa versa, when asked why, he would laugh and say "because I can".
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 10:48
The work an amp has to do is push and allow to return or push and pull a resistance. An analogy - imaging a stiff door you are trying to open, it give resistance to your push. Now you could be a big bloke with small muscles (valve) or a small bloke with big muscles (solid state) in makes no bloody difference as the combination of size (volts) and muscles (amps) is what dictates the power of the push.
That original article posted by the OP is bollocks.
Richard, where does that comment fit in with your desire for discussion on forums to be polite and civil?
You must learn not to express yourself in that way, where you demean/disrespect the perfectly valid opinion of someone else. It is *precisely* that style of posting which winds people up, makes them retaliate, and in turn, causes the conflict you so dislike!
Therefore, in future, please do not refer to anyone's valid opinion as "bollocks", or "cobblers". Disagree, by all means, but always show tolerance and respect for an opposing viewpoint. Cheers!
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 11:03
Richard, where does that comment fit in with your desire for discussion on forums to be polite and civil?
You must learn not to express yourself in that way, where you demean/disrespect the perfectly valid opinion of someone else. It is *precisely* that style of posting which winds people up, makes them retaliate, and in turn, causes the conflict you so dislike!
Please therefore in future do not refer to anyone's valid opinion as "bollocks", or "cobblers". Cheers!
Marco.
Do you want me to go into the archives and quote the number of times you have done exactly the same thing.
The viewpoint was not that of the OP, he was quoting it from another source, and that is what I was referring to.
For me, the reason is clear: output coupling. The reason a valve amp drives a speaker so effectively and 'sounds loud' is that it uses a transformer - a very efficient way of matching impedances and converting (in this case) voltage to current, which is what a speaker needs.
Compare with MC step-up transformers, which to my ears sound so much more dynamic and full-on than an MC amplifier stage.
Have you ever heard an OTL valve amp? Absolutely gutless.
Richard,
The viewpoint was not that of the OP, he was quoting it from another source, and that is what I was referring to.
Yes, but the OP clearly felt that it was a valid subject for discussion, and not "bollocks", so your derogatory remark was impolite and disrespectful.
Please just do as you are asked. My request is NOT up for debate. You still haven't learned your lesson, have you? I'm losing my patience with you... Any further 'back-chat' and you'll be off for another wee holiday!
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 11:22
For me, the reason is clear: output coupling. The reason a valve amp drives a speaker so effectively and 'sounds loud' is that it uses a transformer - a very efficient way of matching impedances and converting (in this case) voltage to current, which is what a speaker needs.
Compare with MC step-up transformers, which to my ears sound so much more dynamic and full-on than an MC amplifier stage.
Have you ever heard an OTL valve amp? Absolutely gutless.
I shall try to avoid expletives, but this is arse about face. No transformer can ever make anything more efficient. All a transformer does is swap voltage for current or visa versa, BUT in the process you MUST have losses, so it must be less efficient. This is why good output transformers (and good phono SUTs) cost a fortune. The cost is to cut the inherent lossiness to a minimum with large plates and iron mass, quality of iron for high flux, quality wiring (even to the extremes of silver wire). BUT the simple rule applies "there is only one thing better than the best component you can use, and that is no component".
The reason why OTL amps sound gutless is not the transformer, it is the design (per usual). You are playing with something on the borders of possibility, so you have to get it *exactly* right to work optimally, that includes such variables as temperature and humidity. If an OTL is spot on the ball and well designed it can sound fabulous, but they are inherently dangerous beasts, get something wrong and you have a few thousand volts on your speakers and an amplifier on fire. That is the problem with them, they have to be balanced to work and components drift with age temp etc.
You're getting lossiness and efficiency mixed up. A good transformer is highly efficient at coupling mismatched impedances.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 11:50
You're getting lossiness and efficiency mixed up. A good transformer is highly efficient at coupling mismatched impedances.
No I am not. Lossiness and lack of efficiency are the same thing electrically, look it up! Quite simply a transformer cannot be more efficient than not having one, when it is not needed. A valve amp needs it, a solid state amp doesn't, it is already matched to the load.
Efficiency in general describes the extent to which time or effort is well used for the intended task or purpose. It is often used with the specific purpose of relaying the capability of a specific application of effort to produce a specific outcome effectively with a minimum amount or quantity of waste, expense, or unnecessary effort. "Efficiency" has widely varying meanings in different disciplines.
Note that the term "efficient" is very much confused and misused with the term "effective". In general, efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input (See Trevor Vaughn). Compare "effectiveness", which is a vague, non-quantitative concept, mainly concerned with achieving objectives. In several of these cases, efficiency can be expressed as a result as percentage of what ideally could be expected, hence with 100% as ideal case. This does not always apply, not even in all cases where efficiency can be assigned a numerical value, e.g. not for specific impulse.
A slightly broader model of efficiency that nevertheless remains consistent with the "percentage" definition in many cases is to say that efficiency corresponds to the ratio r=P/C of the amount P of some valuable resource produced, per amount C of valuable resources consumed. This may correspond to a percentage if products and consumables are quantified in compatible units, and if consumables are transformed into products via a conservative process. For example, in the analysis of the energy conversion efficiency of heat engines in thermodynamics, the product P may be the amount of useful work output, while the consumable C is the amount of high-temperature heat input. Due to the conservation of energy, P can never be greater than C, and so the efficiency r is never greater than 100% (and in fact must be even less at finite temperatures).
Good grief, I know that a transformer cannot be more than 100% efficient! I am talking about how efficient they are at coupling mismatched impedances - far more than by trying to do it in circuitry. By taking a valve amp's high voltage and high output impedance and transforming it, the match to the speakers is excellent. This is why some valve amps even have impedance matching jumpers, to get the turns ratio right.
By the way, there have been transistor designs in the past using coupling transformers in the circuit. I wonder why?
I shall try to avoid expletives...
Why would expletives be necessary in a polite and friendly exchange of views between two people? :scratch:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 12:39
Good grief, I know that a transformer cannot be more than 100% efficient! I am talking about how efficient they are at coupling mismatched impedances - far more than by trying to do it in circuitry. By taking a valve amp's high voltage and high output impedance and transforming it, the match to the speakers is excellent. This is why some valve amps even have impedance matching jumpers, to get the turns ratio right.
By the way, there have been transistor designs in the past using coupling transformers in the circuit. I wonder why?
Output transformers (and incidentally output capacitors) where used for two reasons with transistor circuits. With early circuits especially Germanium transistors it was necessary to decouple the output stage from the load. Secondly in a couple of US cases to try and simulate a family valve sound with their transistor amps. No other reason. Why should anyone spend hundreds of pounds for something that is not required or helpfull or necessary.
You don't seem to understand that necessity dictates, a transformer cannot be more efficient that an active circuit, and efficiency is the subject. It is passive so it can only create losses, either in voltage or current or frequency or distortion, it *cannot* do anything else due to the laws of physics.
Valve amplifier output tranformers have a primary purpose which is not to match impedance, that is secondary, they are there to to step down and transform voltage.
Isn't it interesting, then, that Martin's amps and mine, despite their respective designs being POLES APART, sound remarkably similar?
A 350W solid-state Chord, with SMPSs, and a (then, when we done the comparison) 30W Class A valve amp, with output trannies, sharing a very similar sonic signature, into the same system (Martin's). Who'd have thunk it, eh! ;)
Marco.
Valve amplifier output tranformers have a primary purpose which is not to match impedance, that is secondary, they are there to to step down and transform voltage.
It is one and the same thing, at least that's what my degree course in electronics taught me ;)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 13:06
It is one and the same thing, at least that's what my degree course in electronics taught me ;)
You know exactly what I am talking about, you are being pedantic. Why do transformers have separate 4 8 and 16ohm tapings, so why do they do that if they are so good at matching, do you have to do that with transistor amps - no!
So lets get back to the original point you made before all the smoke screen has been added, as this is what I have replied to.
"For me, the reason is clear: output coupling. The reason a valve amp drives a speaker so effectively and 'sounds loud' is that it uses a transformer - a very efficient way of matching impedances and converting (in this case) voltage to current, which is what a speaker needs."
Please explain how a transformer can be more efficient and make an amplifier sound louder.
How come then my (then) 30W class A valve amp sounded as subjectively loud as Martin's 350W soild-state Chord?
Because in his system, it did!!
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 13:21
How come then my (then) 30W class A valve amp sounded as subjectively loud as Martin's 350W soild-state Chord?
Because in his system, it did!!
Marco.
Because of a thousand different variables. This thread is being simplistic, and anyway perceived loudness can be very different from measured loudness.
For a start loudness is a logarithmic curve relative to watts as everyone knows, so even in potential (as long as the load is matched to the amp) the difference is not as big as it looks. And has already been said elsewhere your amp can go into clipping and just add to the "valve sound", where as a clipping transistor amp sounds horrible and is very noticeable.
Sorry, John. I don't get your point. This discussion has nothing to do with the trade.
Are you saying that trade members can't discuss hi-fi? If so, mate, then that is most certainly not the case on AoS. We welcome our trade members taking part in discussions out with of the trade area.
Also, as Richard has said many times before, he posts here as Richard Dunn, not (outwardly) as NVA. The only reason I put "Trade" under his name is to differentiate him from ordinary members who have nothing to do with making a living from designing hi-fi equipment.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 13:43
I am not a trade member. I am a member who happens to make a living from making Hi-Fi. Find one post of mine in the trade section. I do not promote or try to sell my products here. I am here for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to discuss hi-fi.
Already said it, mate! :)
Marco.
Just another one of my poor attempts at humour Marco :eyebrows:
I’m having a weird day. I’ve taken the post down :mental:
This is a very interesting discussion, and as usual, there does not seem to be one definitive answer. The only non-technical thing i can add is that my last amp, a Lyngdorf tda 2200, 200w into 8 ohms, 375w into 4 ohms, did not seem any louder than my 30w Unison Research s6, and musically, the s6 walked all over the Lyngdorf. I'm sorry for taking this thread in a slightly different direction, but i'm about to purchase a new amp, and have decided to go back to valves. I'm considering the Pure Sound 2a3, and wonder if it's 18 watts will be enough to drive my Kef Reference 2.2 speakers, which have 90db sensitivity, and a minimum 3.2 ohms impedance. I have contacted guy sergeant at Pure Sound, but he has not replied.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 14:06
This is a very interesting discussion, and as usual, there does not seem to be one definitive answer. The only non-technical thing i can add is that my last amp, a Lyngdorf tda 2200, 200w into 8 ohms, 375w into 4 ohms, did not seem any louder than my 30w Unison Research s6, and musically, the s6 walked all over the Lyngdorf. I'm sorry for taking this thread in a slightly different direction, but i'm about to purchase a new amp, and have decided to go back to valves. I'm considering the Pure Sound 2a3, and wonder if it's 18 watts will be enough to drive my Kef Reference 2.2 speakers, which have 90db sensitivity, and a minimum 3.2 ohms impedance. I have contacted guy sergeant at Pure Sound, but he has not replied.
Does it matter if you have a 5 litre car with 300bhp or a 2 litre car with 120bhp if you are only going to poodle it around. A domestic hi-fi system is the equivalent of poodling it around. If you want to connect them up to a PA rig you will find the difference. My point is you obviously don't need more than 30w, so the excessive spec of the other amp is just for marketing purposes.
Though I will concede one point, as I have just made in my last post. You will have difficulty noticing when a valve amp begins to runs out of headroom, as it just sounds more valvey, where as a transistor amp running out of headroom will make your teeth grate.
Just another one of my poor attempts at humour Marco :eyebrows:
I’m having a weird day. I’ve taken the post down :mental:
Lol - we all get 'em, dude. Weird is cool, 'normal' is boring!! ;)
Marco.
Though I will concede one point, as I have just made in my last post. You will have difficulty noticing when a valve amp begins to runs out of headroom, as it just sounds more valvey, where as a transistor amp running out of headroom will make your teeth grate.
Indeed, though, with a quality valve amp and quality efficient speakers, your ears would give in long before the amp would........ ;)
Try as I might, I can't get my Copper amp to clip in my system, with my 95db Tannoys... I can get to 75% volume, on the Croft, which just creates a massive wall of sound, with frightening visceral intensity and SPL's that make you feel almost ill, but no hint of strain whatsoever (or clipping), and then I back off before worrying about the state of my hearing and losing my intestines on the wall......!! :rave:
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 14:59
Indeed, though, with a quality valve amp and quality efficient speakers, your ears would give in long before the amp would........ ;)
Try as I might, I can't get my Copper amp to clip in my system, with my 95db Tannoys... I can get to 75% volume, on the Croft, which just creates a massive wall of sound, with frightening visceral intensity and no hint of strain whatsoever (or clipping), and then I back off before worrying about the state of my hearing and losing my intestines on the wall......!! :rave:
:eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Loudness is a weird thing, it probably is clipping at that point which is why you perceive it as loud, but the even order distortion you are getting is just like the up front nature of a PA, it is visceral. What people don't understand is that in steady state test gear sig gen generated scope reading clipping you are looking at voltage clip. In a real situation more often than not it is current clip, and the two sound different. In voltage clip the signal hits the rails where as in current clip the rails are dragged down to hit the signal. Current clipping has a less harsh but more loudness related effect with valves. With solid state both voltage and current clipping even at slight onset are immediately apparent and nasty, though current clipping slightly less so, due to largely odd order harmonics that are generated.
This is an example of how specs are meaningless and irrelevant. If you measure a square wave on a solid state amp it is clearly superior to any valve amp, it is sharp and if it errs then it is in ringing (overshoot). Where as a valve amp just can't produce a square wave it will always be rounded. Musically in this case the lack of spec ability is a musical advantage. So as you can see it is a complex subject, that stretches into psycho acoustics elements, and how we as humans perceive music.
I don't know an active pre, valve or solid state, that isn't clipping transients at 75% of volume control, with some real con jobs like a couple of the MF ones they clip a not much over 50%. It is all part of perceived loudness, spec wars, and to stand out in dem rooms. There are lots of little cons that can be perpetrated to make people *think* there is a difference. That is why the only differences that are important are musical.
Trust me Richard, I *know* what a clipping valve amp sounds like, and there ain't no clipping - just a huge effortless sound that pins you to the wall! Ask anyone here who's heard my system.
You'll have to pop up sometime and hear it for yourself. I think you'd find it quite an experience ;)
Other than that, I fully agree with what you say.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 15:10
Trust me Richard, I *know* what a clipping valve amp sounds like, and there ain't no clipping - just a huge effortless sound that pins you to the wall! Ask anyone here who's heard my system.
You'll have to pop up sometime and hear it for yourself. I think you'd find it quite an experience ;)
Other than that, I fully agree with what you say.
Marco.
You are aware of gross clipping, transient clipping is a completely different thing in valve amps, all you will notice is loudness. It is psycho acoustic effect.
There *is* no clipping (of any description) Richard, PERIOD, so don't argue about something you haven't heard for yourself - ta! ;)
Marco.
One baby ss amp that clipped so gracefully it was more like gentle and progressive compression is the original Naim Nait, which simply acted as a compressor rather than letting go horribly like its more expensive "CB era" brethren did, with "teeth grating" results :)
Again, I don't know the why's and wherefores, but the newish Albarry mono's give the impression of incredible "grip" and endless headroom, despite "only" being 50W each I believe. I fully appreciate that this could easily be shown logically by "those that know," but I'm sure it still goes back to power supplies and careful design manipulation of same :)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 15:43
There *is* no clipping (of any description) Richard, period, so don't argue about something you haven't heard for yourself - ta! ;)
Marco.
I have been designing and building amps for over 40 years first as a hobby, including valve amps. I do not need to hear you system to know what is happening
1 if your pre amp is at 75% on the volume control, then given that line levels are matched it *is* clipping transients.
2 that clipping creates a psycho acoustic loudness effect. I have witnessed it, measured it, and theorised about it a long time ago. AND it is one of the basic differences between valve and transistor circuits. What you perceive as loudness is artificial but nice. If you had a valve amp of twice the power you would get that loudness effect at a higher measured level of watts. This is the reason why people say that single ended 300B go loud, because they don't understand what loud is.
3 I could create a system for you that would damage your hearing to the point you ears would bleed yet you would not perceive this loudness effect. It would not seem loud until it really hurt and damaged you.
You are perceiving something that is not a reality, it is quite well know so it is not just me saying it. There are papers written on it at the AES, but I can't be bothered to find them for you.
Lalalala... Keep waffling on! I don't give a flying feck if you've been stroking your middle leg and whistling Dixie for 40 years, or about any freakin' "papers". Now you're playing the (absolutist) objectivist card when it suits you! :rolleyes:
You didn't design my amp or build my system. I *know* what I hear with components I use daily and know inside out, sweety, without you telling me!!
Now, kindly respect my listening expenience and intimate knowledge of my own system, and back off.
Marco.
Just to try to calm things down a tad, may I politely suggest that Marco's system is a special case here... My addled brain worked out that at 40 Watts input approx, the Lockwood Tannoys would be putting out a mean 115db I reckon!!!!! Now, I've owned big (ish) active ATC's which would do the same thing (the bass units needed around 100W for this approx) and my gawd it's summat in a smallish room, as I believe Marco has at present...
Bringing it up to date, at the levels I listen at today, the old Quad II's probably only have to deliver a very few Watts most of the time, as 85db would be as loud as they ever go normally (BC2's claim 86 - 87db/W from memory - they're more efficient than BC1's)..
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2011, 18:52
Because of a thousand different variables. This thread is being simplistic, and anyway perceived loudness can be very different from measured loudness.
For a start loudness is a logarithmic curve relative to watts as everyone knows, so even in potential (as long as the load is matched to the amp) the difference is not as big as it looks. And has already been said elsewhere your amp can go into clipping and just add to the "valve sound", where as a clipping transistor amp sounds horrible and is very noticeable.
I actually agree with this :) So don't start having a go Richard, please :eyebrows:
The difference between say 30W & 300W is only 10Db (which is a physical volume doubling) & allowing for the low feedback factor of Marco's power amp & some clipping which as Richard mentions will be a lot cleaner (less harsh) due to the much lower overall feedback they may well sound like thay can do similar things.
Give them some seriously deep bass to do & this may well no longer appear to be the case, unless the valve amp output transformers are seriously over engineered ;)
sq225917
13-08-2011, 19:27
Without measuring the voltage rails and current delivery from an amp it is impossible to 'know' when it is clipping, in many cases you simply cannot hear it, especially with valve amps which may clip quite gracefully. If you mean 'clipping' as audible gross distortion, then yes your amps may never sound like they are clipping, but as regards the true meaning of clipping and it's measured effect they most certainly will be at some point. though where that point exists with 96db speakers is likely to be seriously masked by the loudness curve.
Without measuring the voltage rails and current delivery from an amp it is impossible to 'know' when it is clipping, in many cases you simply cannot hear it, especially with valve amps which may clip quite gracefully. If you mean 'clipping' as audible gross distortion, then yes your amps may never sound like they are clipping, but as regards the true meaning of clipping and it's measured effect they most certainly will be at some point. though where that point exists with 96db speakers is likely to be seriously masked by the loudness curve.
Sure, no doubt - I just haven't managed to reach that point yet (which is what I was trying to explain to Richard)! I gave up fearing for my hearing, whilst the amp was sitting there smugly saying "Come on, ya wuss, is that all you've got?" :ner: :eyebrows:
Hi Dave,
Just to try to calm things down a tad, may I politely suggest that Marco's system is a special case here... My addled brain worked out that at 40 Watts input approx, the Lockwood Tannoys would be putting out a mean 115db I reckon!!!!! Now, I've owned big (ish) active ATC's which would do the same thing (the bass units needed around 100W for this approx) and my gawd it's summat in a smallish room, as I believe Marco has at present...
Indeed!
Honestly, since the amp has been recently re-capped, it's a freakin' animal!! One of my mates was round the other day and we were listening to Godsmack 'The Oracle': http://www.amazon.com/Oracle-Godsmack/dp/B003DU513A) at levels you'd swear that you were at a gig. It was frightening. I can't really describe it any other way, as you had to be there to experience it, but at the end of the first two tracks, we were both sweating with the sheer intensity of the sound (real throbbing, gut-pummelling stuff), and just turned round to each other and laughed out loud, saying "WHAT DA FUCK?!!?" :lol:
I need to buy an SPL meter!
Hi Mark,
Give them some seriously deep bass to do & this may well no longer appear to be the case, unless the valve amp output transformers are seriously over engineered....
They are (large bespoke hand-wound jobbies, and expensive to produce!) however, you'll have to come round and bring some of that mad shit you listen to, dude, and take the smug grin off that Copper amp's chops!! :gig:
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2011, 20:39
Hi Mark,
They are (bespoke hand-wound jobbies, and expensive to produce!), however, you'll have to come round and bring some of that mad shit you listen to, dude, and take the smug grin off that Copper amp's chops!! :gig:
Marco.
:) You know it Marco ;) Frankly that is the only place that a valve amp can fall down (if properly designed). However, a crappy solid state amp, or should i say a standard Japanese solid state amp will probably have as much if not more of a problem with deep bass than a well designed valve amp. After all the valve amp will likely have a PI filter after rectification, which will go a good way to to ensuring a decent supply (as i'm sure you know ;)).
Frankly Jap amps with low storage capacitance turn me off :eyebrows: The PSU is everything, after all it's what you are listening to at the end of the day ;)
Frankly Jap amps with low storage capacitance turn me off The PSU is everything, after all it's what you are listening to at the end of the day
Too bloody right, mate!!!
And, I'm pretty sure too that the outrageous dedicated hard-wired mains set-up I've got, goes some way towards providing my amp with some more 'horse-power', in terms of headroom and lack of strain, and is one of the reasons behind why I'm hearing what I'm hearing :cool:
You know yourself the benefits of good clean mains power!
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2011, 20:58
It's quite impressive how much power the inductor in the mains PSU of a valve amp can store/absorb/supply... The only people who have attempted this with solid state (as far as i know) is Musical Fidelity, due to previous MF bodging (that i am witness to) they have probably not done the job as well as it could be done :eyebrows:
anthonyTD
13-08-2011, 21:33
hi all,
well, i did think after i put up my thoughts on this subject that my views might be unpopular with some here. There are of course good and bad designs of both technologies, however, the subject discussed here comes up time after time when people who have been running/using solid state designs for many years discover what even mediocre valve amps are capable of compared to what they have been used to. the subject of output transformers has been brought up here[again] so i will give my take on them, yes, they are a necessity in valve amp design because as we have already discussed, valves are high voltage, high impedance devices, hence they need a matching device to step down the voltage, increase the current, and also lower the impedance to a matched value in order to drive a loudspeaker, now, Richard has already given his views on my crude explanation of what i think may be making the biggest diffrence in sonics of each topology, and of course he is welcome to his views, however, Richard has also stated that the output transformer is the weakest link in a valve amp, and in some ways i have to agree, however, my arguement is, even with this crappy piece of lossless metal and copper windings in front of them, the superior performance of a well designed valve circuit cannot be ignored or disputed, so, i stick by my views, which, are, the lineararity of the device, and the voltage rails they run on play a big part in how each design topology portrays dynamics.
Anthony,TD...
Did you hear my amp clipping, Anthony, (or rather Ian's) in any shape or form, the last time you were round and we were playing Tool ('Undertow' CD) at near 'live gig' levels?
I think that some people find it difficult to reconcile the effect I get in my room with the Copper amp/Lockwoods, given that it is 'only' a 30W (or in my case now, 50W) valve amp.
You've experienced it, mate, on many occasions, so please comment :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 22:09
Sorry I missed coming back to this earlier, been enjoying roast duck and rice noodle soup in Chinatown.
Anyway I really do not care a hoot about posturing and threats, and if this post is taken down then, well you who get the chance to read it can judge for yourselves.
If line levels are matched, which I am sure they are in Marco's system, and the Croft is designed as an active line level device (which I know it is) then at three quarters (75%) up on the volume control his (and*any*) power amp is clipping transients and you are into the loudness effect. With a solid state amp this would be audible and horrid, with a valve amp it just makes it sound loud and more valve like.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 22:22
As an addenda what I have said applies to any active pre amp used with any power amp set at standard line level.
I should explain that NVA is different, it has a tadge more gain in the early voltage gain stages of the power amp but it is designed to be used with a passive pre so you would get the same onset of transient clipping with the pot pre at full out on the pre amp not 75%. But with a shunt type stepped attenuator, as we also use as an option, you wouldn't even reach transient clipping at full out as there is always a residual resistance even at full out, so you do not get the loudness effect, which in solid state amps is horrible anyway so you don't want it.
For proof if you a have a transistor radio, which are normally about 2 or 3 watt, just turn it up full and see how loud it is - horribly distorted and horribly loud. Simply perceived loudness is more a factor of distortion than it is a factor of power.
I won't take your posts down, as they simply reflect your valid opinion (not facts, like you'd like to think they are).
However, you can keep on saying the same things until the cows come home, Richard, and it still won't make one iota of difference to what I *know* I'm hearing in my own system! :upyours:
It's interesting that you cling to the objectivist/measurements stance, when it suits you, being as absolutist and dogmatic in the process as those you often fight against of that mindset, and pooh-pooh such an approach the rest of the time, where you advocate letting your ears be the judge....
What you're telling me is akin to a cable cynic lecturing me on the 'fact' that cables can't make any difference, out with of basic LCR characteristics (is LCR the right term?), which from experience, I also know is totally untrue, so carry on believing what you want to believe, and I'll carry on *knowing* what I hear! ;)
Science doesn't yet have all the answers to explain everything that we genuinely hear with audio.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 22:32
:) You know it Marco ;) Frankly that is the only place that a valve amp can fall down (if properly designed). However, a crappy solid state amp, or should i say a standard Japanese solid state amp will probably have as much if not more of a problem with deep bass than a well designed valve amp. After all the valve amp will likely have a PI filter after rectification, which will go a good way to to ensuring a decent supply (as i'm sure you know ;)).
Frankly Jap amps with low storage capacitance turn me off :eyebrows: The PSU is everything, after all it's what you are listening to at the end of the day ;)
High capacitance is not the arbiter of good power supplies, low impedance (high va) is. High capacitance means high residual inductance in the capacitor windings, so it starts to become self defeating, parallel sets of capacitors to create high capacitance nullifies this effect.
worthingpagan
13-08-2011, 22:37
:partytime:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 22:39
I won't take your posts down, as they simply reflect your valid opinion (not facts, like you'd like to think they are).
However, you can keep on saying the same things until the cows come home, Richard, and it still won't make one iota of difference to what I *know* I'm hearing in my own system! :upyours:
It's interesting that you cling to the objectivist/measurements stance, when it suits you, being as absolutist and dogmatic in the process as those you often fight against of that mindset, and pooh-pooh such an approach the rest of the time, where you advocate letting your ears be the judge....
What you're telling me is akin to a cable cynic lecturing me on the 'fact' that cables can't make any difference, out with of basic LCR characteristics (is LCR the right term?), which from experience, I also know is totally untrue, so carry on believing what you want to believe, and I'll carry on *knowing* what I hear! ;)
Science doesn't yet have all the answers to explain everything that we genuinely hear with audio.
Sorry Marco you are clutching at straws. I am not being an objectivist in the slightest, I am explaining what I hear, which in this case happens to corelate to the physics. There is no way around it, you can calculate it, you can measure it, and in solid state amps you can hear it. The thing with your situation is you can't hear it as it is not an audible distortion as such as it is what is known as soft clipping, only creating even harmonic distortion, all that creates is a perceived loudness effect.
I will say again, loudness is more a factor of distortion than power. I could put a 1200w Tresham PA amp on your system (if I still had one) and it wouldn't sound loud in that small room of yours, with those speakers until your ears were bleeding and your hearing was permanently damaged. It would just have a feel of extraordinary power and they would probably hear it in the next village.
Have you finished yet?
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 22:57
Reality never finishes, it tends to go on for ever :lolsign:
Well, you love your 'reality', shweety, and I'll carry on loving mine! :trust: :kiss:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-08-2011, 23:17
hi all,
well, i did think after i put up my thoughts on this subject that my views might be unpopular with some here. There are of course good and bad designs of both technologies, however, the subject discussed here comes up time after time when people who have been running/using solid state designs for many years discover what even mediocre valve amps are capable of compared to what they have been used to. the subject of output transformers has been brought up here[again] so i will give my take on them, yes, they are a necessity in valve amp design because as we have already discussed, valves are high voltage, high impedance devices, hence they need a matching device to step down the voltage, increase the current, and also lower the impedance to a matched value in order to drive a loudspeaker, now, Richard has already given his views on my crude explanation of what i think may be making the biggest diffrence in sonics of each topology, and of course he is welcome to his views, however, Richard has also stated that the output transformer is the weakest link in a valve amp, and in some ways i have to agree, however, my arguement is, even with this crappy piece of lossless metal and copper windings in front of them, the superior performance of a well designed valve circuit cannot be ignored or disputed, so, i stick by my views, which, are, the lineararity of the device, and the voltage rails they run on play a big part in how each design topology portrays dynamics.
Anthony,TD...
Anthony I am perfectly willing to accept your views and respect the quality of your amps. This is not about that, we may differ as to the relative compromises of valve v solid state and as I could just as easily design valve amps if I wanted to, so you could just as easily design solid state amps if you wanted to. The ultimate test would be to bake-off in both yours and my systems. I would bet that you would win in yours and I would win in mine, which shows that with good product it all comes down to system synergy.
This is about something different, the loudness effect, you must have come across it. It is one of the main reasons why valve amps are on a roll at the moment on the forums. The other reason is that most valve converts are coming from Naim / Linn type musical presentation, which in itself was an anomaly. They created a home PA system, which is fine but wearing, valves provide a complete change to another presentation, and the Linn / Naim brainwash means that people need a complete philosophical reversal to break away from that bullshit. They have been indoctrinated that no solid state could ever be better so they turn to valve. Time will see it going back the other way, but not back to them, that sound and presentation has had its day at last.
As an ex-Naimee, I turned to valves because I discovered amps that could do 'thermionic Naim' (Anthony doesn't design typical valve amps), and indeed, much, MUCH more than that - at a mere fraction of the cost of my old £40k Naim system, with Spendor SP100s.
It therefore made sense to ditch the Naim, so I sunk the change when I sold it, and lived happily ever after! ;)
In my case, there was no more to it than that.
Marco.
Marco
Do you really listen with the volume on your pre at 75%?
Recalling Ian's Tannoy Canterburys I really can't imagine how loud that is in a smallish room?
Only for a giggle sometimes, dude, when the crew are round - it's hard to resist with rock music! Otherwise, I listen at pretty low levels.
What's the point in having a tiger in your tank if you don't put your foot down sometimes and test the acceleration? :eyebrows:
It's nice owning a system that can comfortably handle it :)
Marco.
Only for a giggle sometimes, dude, when the crew are round - it's hard to resist with rock music! Otherwise, I listen at pretty low levels.
What's the point in having a tiger in your tank if you don't put your foot down sometimes and test the acceleration? :eyebrows:
Marco.
I am relieved ;) Don't think I will ever forget those Canterburys :eek:
They're beasts, as are the Lockwoods.... Everyone should own a big pair of Tannoys sometime in their lives! :cool:
Marco.
I just been catching up on this thread and trying to get what Richard is saying. I have similar sound charteristics as Marco system and think what you trying to say is that awesome sound we both get like almost being at a gig is valve disortoration! But this is a kind of a pleasent distoration that is pleasing to the ears? but still distoration If that is case I am quite happy with that distoration as it sounds so bloody realistic
Sorry Richard I am just trying to make sense of this.
It's interesting that my Chord power amp has dynamic coupling of the power rails so that the positive and negative rails remain coupled no matter what the transient demand of the signal. It also runs at +/- 90V, rather high voltages for a tranny amp. While not the same as an inductor in a valve amp PSU, it does have the same effect of providing immense stiffness to the PSU rails - not to mention that because it is a switching PSU it can 'top-up' the reservoir capacitors 80,000 times per second rather than 100 times per second for a linear PSU.
Good design is good design and it helps support what Marco and I heard in my system: that completely different topologies, well designed, can sound remarkably similar. Since neither amp was stressed, the relative difference in power output was irrelevant.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 10:15
I just been catching up on this thread and trying to get what Richard is saying. I have similar sound charteristics as Marco system and think what you trying to say is that awesome sound we both get like almost being at a gig is valve disortoration! But this is a kind of a pleasent distoration that is pleasing to the ears? but still distoration If that is case I am quite happy with that distoration as it sounds so bloody realistic
Sorry Richard I am just trying to make sense of this.
You don't get it. Valve distortion is valve distortion, and it is very minor, there is more effect from type of valve and circuit design than there is from valves as a genre per se.
What I am talking about here is very simple, but is complex in its effects as it is psycho acoustic based, what the ear likes and does not like, as opposed to what is objectively correct.
So to repeat - any active pre-amp set at 75% on the volume control when used with standard line level input sources will be clipping transients. This creates a loudness effect which is when the human ears and brain tells you it is loud.
With a valve amp that manifests as soft clipping which is largely 2nd harmonic distortion and smaller amounts of other even harmonics and minimal amounts of 3rd and other odd order harmonics. As any musical instrument designer will tell you, the art of making a good musical instrument is creating the timbre for that instrument, and that is harmonic pattern, and if left just at the fundamental tone it would be boring *and not get loud*. The overtones they try to create for the specific timbre of that instrument is even harmonic patterns as they are musically in tune with the fundamental. They avoid odd harmonics as they are not musically in tune (think of a choral harmony and one member of the ensemble is flat or sharp, you hear the person who is off very easily). So it is the musicians who should play loudly or not, not the reproducing equipment creating it as a artifice.
With a transistor amp that manifests as hard clipping which is largely odd order harmonics as it is more capable of creating a real square wave (which is what clipping is). So an electrical / technical / objective advantage to solid state turns into a musical disadvantage against the technically less correct valves.
This is why valve amps can get away with low power yet sound *loud*, because loud is more a facet of distortion than it is of power. So a valve amp sounds loud pleasantly and musically even if in reality it is an artifice, where as a solid state amp sounds loud in an unmusical nasty way. This is the reason why you need more power in solid state amps so you keep them away from transient clip. So basically in valve amps that live up front nature you talk about is created by the amp distorting nicely, a similar nature to the design and EQ setting on large PA rigs creating the same effect, but they are both artifice, you may like them but it is not *right*.
I have done a lot of work with this and it is one of the main reasons I redesigned to use a passive pre-amp. I avoid the problem by not letting the amp transient clip unless it is at full output on the volume control, just as a warning you are going too far. I also believe that 80w is the most you need in a domestic environment. Also how a speaker presents that sound into the acoustic is very important.
As I have tried to explain, perceived loudness is a psycho acoustic anomaly, yes you still have louder, but what the human brain perceives as *loud* is more a result of distortion than power. I have done work on this that goes back to the early 80's when I decided 80w was enough domestically. At the time I was producing Tresham PA amps at a potential of over 1000w and we wanted to produce a domestic version as some hi-fi shops had cottoned on to how good they were. In a domestic situation a Tresham SR402 was capable of permanently damaging your hearing before you detected it was loud, this is just not acceptable and is one the reason why I keep saying they are two different markets and good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
Anyway you are one or the few people here on this forum who has heard what I am trying to do in optimum as designed domestic conditions, so you judge, but the last thing you could say about it is that it recreates a good PA system, if that is what someone wants go elsewhere. I designed PA systems (and ran the desks on some) so I know what is happening and I have developed my own take and solution to the problem, but people pays their money and they takes their choices.
Its worth remembering that for an amp to drive 300W sine into a 8 ohm load, it needs to output a wave that has 70v peaks. Add some headroom to that and you very quickly get to 90v rails.
Also as the energy stored in a capacitor is equal to half the square of the voltage multiplied by the capacitance and if Marco's amps rails are at 500v, and he has 220uf of smoothing cap, will have a 27J energy storage. At 50v, the same energy storage would need 22000uf of caps.
anthonyTD
14-08-2011, 10:21
Anthony I am perfectly willing to accept your views and respect the quality of your amps. This is not about that, we may differ as to the relative compromises of valve v solid state and as I could just as easily design valve amps if I wanted to, so you could just as easily design solid state amps if you wanted to. The ultimate test would be to bake-off in both yours and my systems. I would bet that you would win in yours and I would win in mine, which shows that with good product it all comes down to system synergy.
This is about something different, the loudness effect, you must have come across it. It is one of the main reasons why valve amps are on a roll at the moment on the forums. The other reason is that most valve converts are coming from Naim / Linn type musical presentation, which in itself was an anomaly. They created a home PA system, which is fine but wearing, valves provide a complete change to another presentation, and the Linn / Naim brainwash means that people need a complete philosophical reversal to break away from that bullshit.
They have been indoctrinated that no solid state could ever be better so they turn to valve. Time will see it going back the other way, but not back to them, that sound and presentation has had its day at last.
Hi Richard,
i take your point on the highlighted above, and accept that there is merit in it, There are of course many other variables to take into acount when trying to describe why one design' wether it be valve or solid state has a totaly diffrent soinc presentation to another, however, as i have stated before, i accept that there are exceptionaly good solid state designs, and there are exceptionaly bad valve designs, a lot will depend on the design, and on what the designer set out to acheive.
As far as the brand names you accociate with being the main culprits and reasoning for the recent [10 to 15 years now] convert to valves, again i can only comment on my own experience, as far as those brands are concerned, and in those products you describe, i have no such experience, however, i have experience of many other top branded solid state designs of the day, and i didnt care much for most of those.
Anthony,TD...
The other reason is that most valve converts are coming from Naim / Linn type musical presentation, which in itself was an anomaly. They created a home PA system, which is fine but wearing, valves provide a complete change to another presentation, and the Linn / Naim brainwash means that people need a complete philosophical reversal to break away from that bullshit. They have been indoctrinated that no solid state could ever be better so they turn to valve. Time will see it going back the other way, but not back to them, that sound and presentation has had its day at last.
I really wish things could be as black and white as the quote above, but although I haven't heard Anthony's amps as yet, I have heard the likes of Graaf and Copland, the former sounding more "solid state" than many transistor amps, and the latter in one notable case (with a token valve recitifier/regulator I seem to remember, but ss everywhere else), sounding incredibly holographic, given a suitable source...
I can't disagree too much with the Linn/Naimies going over to valves, as I've been there myself. Trouble is, the surviving dealers (I think my "virginity" which was KJ has now gone completely? :() are helping these two makers join forces again, as Naimies refuse to believe in any other turntable but the LP12 it seems and Linn are about to resurrect the (better off) long dead Isobarik concept - nostalgia?
You don't get it. Valve distortion is valve distortion, and it is very minor, there is more effect from type of valve and circuit design than there is from valves as a genre per se.
What I am talking about here is very simple, but is complex in its effects as it is psycho acoustic based, what the ear likes and does not like, as opposed to what is objectively correct.
So to repeat - any active pre-amp set at 75% on the volume control when used with standard line level input sources will be clipping transients. This creates a loudness effect which is when the human ears and brain tells you it is loud.
With a valve amp that manifests as soft clipping which is largely 2nd harmonic distortion and smaller amounts of other even harmonics and minimal amounts of 3rd and other odd order harmonics. As any musical instrument designer will tell you, the art of making a good musical instrument is creating the timbre for that instrument, and that is harmonic pattern, and if left just at the fundamental tone it would be boring *and not get loud*. The overtones they try to create for the specific timbre of that instrument is even harmonic patterns as they are musically in tune with the fundamental. They avoid odd harmonics as they are not musically in tune (think of a choral harmony and one member of the ensemble is flat or sharp, you hear the person who is off very easily). So it is the musicians who should play loudly or not, not the reproducing equipment creating it as a artifice.
With a transistor amp that manifests as hard clipping which is largely odd order harmonics as it is more capable of creating a real square wave (which is what clipping is). So an electrical / technical / objective advantage to solid state turns into a musical disadvantage against the technically less correct valves.
This is why valve amps can get away with low power yet sound *loud*, because loud is more a facet of distortion than it is of power. So a valve amp sounds loud pleasantly and musically even if in reality it is an artifice, where as a solid state amp sounds loud in an unmusical nasty way. This is the reason why you need more power in solid state amps so you keep them away from transient clip. So basically in valve amps that live up front nature you talk about is created by the amp distorting nicely, a similar nature to the design and EQ setting on large PA rigs creating the same effect, but they are both artifice, you may like them but it is not *right*.
I have done a lot of work with this and it is one of the main reasons I redesigned to use a passive pre-amp. I avoid the problem by not letting the amp transient clip unless it is at full output on the volume control, just as a warning you are going too far. I also believe that 80w is the most you need in a domestic environment. Also how a speaker presents that sound into the acoustic is very important.
As I have tried to explain, perceived loudness is a psycho acoustic anomaly, yes you still have louder, but what the human brain perceives as *loud* is more a result of distortion than power. I have done work on this that goes back to the early 80's when I decided 80w was enough domestically. At the time I was producing Tresham PA amps at a potential of over 1000w and we wanted to produce a domestic version as some hi-fi shops had cottoned on to how good they were. In a domestic situation a Tresham SR402 was capable of permanently damaging your hearing before you detected it was loud, this is just not acceptable and is one the reason why I keep saying they are two different markets and good for one is not necessarily good for the other.
Anyway you are one or the few people here on this forum who has heard what I am trying to do in optimum as designed domestic conditions, so you judge, but the last thing you could say about it is that it recreates a good PA system, if that is what someone wants go elsewhere. I designed PA systems (and ran the desks on some) so I know what is happening and I have developed my own take and solution to the problem, but people pays their money and they takes their choices.
Richard,
I (sort of) understand where you're coming from, but my policy in hi-fi is always one of 'The proof of the pudding is in the listening'. I don't give a SHIT about what the physics says, 'scientific proof', measurements, or any objectvist bull - I use MY EARS to evaluate anything and everything to do with audio, pure and simple.
Therefore, let's BOTH evaluate together what you've described above, when I bring both my Croft preamp and Copper amp down to your place, and we'll see if we can get my power amp to clip in your system, and you can educate me (I'm serious about this) as to what you mean here:
What I am talking about here is very simple, but is complex in its effects as it is psycho acoustic based, what the ear likes and does not like, as opposed to what is objectively correct.
We can then both debate the matter when we're sat together listening to the same thing, and hopefully I'll 'get' where you're coming from, because at the moment, in my system, I simply can't hear what you're describing :)
I'll call you on Monday afternoon and we'll arrange a mutually suitable date for my visit, and then we'll put this thing to bed once and for all, and hopefully after it, we'll both be wiser! :cool:
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
14-08-2011, 18:19
It's interesting that my Chord power amp has dynamic coupling of the power rails so that the positive and negative rails remain coupled no matter what the transient demand of the signal. It also runs at +/- 90V, rather high voltages for a tranny amp. While not the same as an inductor in a valve amp PSU, it does have the same effect of providing immense stiffness to the PSU rails - not to mention that because it is a switching PSU it can 'top-up' the reservoir capacitors 80,000 times per second rather than 100 times per second for a linear PSU.
Good design is good design and it helps support what Marco and I heard in my system: that completely different topologies, well designed, can sound remarkably similar. Since neither amp was stressed, the relative difference in power output was irrelevant.
That (post transformer) inductor can supply either the positive or negative rails with current & indeed it does significantly help regulation. It's quite likely that only the positive rail is in the feedback loop that goes back to the SMPS chip to regulate the voltage (usual setup), but the inductor will regulate the negative rail as they are coupled magnetically via that inductor.
Good design, i have worked on loads like it ;)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 18:32
Richard,
I (sort of) understand where you're coming from, but my policy in hi-fi is always one of 'The proof of the pudding is in the listening'. I don't give a SHIT about what the physics says, 'scientific proof', measurements, or any objectvist bull - I use MY EARS to evaluate anything and everything to do with audio, pure and simple.
Therefore, let's BOTH evaluate together what you've described above, when I bring both my Croft preamp and Copper amp down to your place, and we'll see if we can get my power amp to clip in your system, and you can educate me (I'm serious about this) as to what you mean here:
We can then both debate the matter when we're sat together listening to the same thing, and hopefully I'll 'get' where you're coming from, because at the moment, in my system, I simply can't hear what you're describing :)
I'll call you on Monday afternoon and we'll arrange a mutually suitable date for my visit, and then we'll put this thing to bed once and for all, and hopefully after it, we'll both be wiser! :cool:
Marco.
I am not in the slightest bit interested in making your amp clip, the same for mine. I am only interested in music.
Once again the reason for my statements should be absolutely clear. You said when you want to really let the amp rip you use the the pre-amp at 75% on the volume control, and then the amp pins you back. I was simply explaining to you why this is happening. As I keep saying *you will not hear it* what you will hear is that the system is loud, that is the effect. As I also said if you had two bridged Tresham SR402 delivering 1400 watts each it would not reach that level of perceived so called loudness until your ears were bleeding.
I am sorry but accept it or not it is fact. At that level on the VC of an active pre-amp then the power amp is clipping transients and that is what you are hearing, known as loudness effect. I seriously do not want to reproduce that here. If you don't want it to happen then use a passive pre-amp (though not a TVC passive as some have gain windings as well) as that will not allow the input voltage to reach that stage. This is one of the reasons why some people don't like passives as they are used to and like the distortion involved.
anthonyTD
14-08-2011, 20:52
hi Richard,
as far as the position of the volume control is concerned on a given preamp, for eg, marco's croft, as you know it will depend on how much gain the preamp has at that position, and also, how much headroom the power amp has on the input stage, now without looking at the spec of the croft i couldnt tell you what its gain structure is, but going by what i have heard and seen of it in marco's system i would suspect that it is quite a low gain unit. As for my own prefrence As far as valve preamps are concerned, well its no secret that i like the grounded circuit, mainly because it has huge overload margins, ie; massive headroom, for eg, put 2v [peak to peak] into one of my designs, you get a clean 20v [if you want] out!
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 21:06
hi Richard,
as far as the position of the volume control is concerned on a given preamp, for eg, marco's croft, as you know it will depend on how much gain the preamp has at that position, and also, how much headroom the power amp has on the input stage, now without looking at the spec of the croft i couldnt tell you what its gain structure is, but going by what i have heard and seen of it in marco's system i would suspect that it is quite a low gain unit. As for my own prefrence As far as valve preamps are concerned, well its no secret that i like the grounded circuit, mainly because it has huge overload margins, ie; massive headroom, for eg, put 2v [peak to peak] into one of my designs, you get a clean 20v [if you want] out!
Anthony,TD...
It is not the pre-amp creating the loudness effect, it is the power amp. All the pre-amp does is provide the voltage to a level that the power amp clips the transients. And I will say again, if an active pre-amp has been designed to standard line levels (and AFAIK the Croft is) then at 75% of the volume control the power amp is transient clipping no matter how much headroom is built into the amp. All that a really good power supply does is ensure that the clipping is voltage clip i.e. the signal hits the rails, and not current clip i.e. when the rails are pulled down to hit the signal. The latter normally means poor matching to load and subsequently inadequate power supply VA. It just means the effect comes in sooner than 75% of the VC.
If you don't want it to happen then use a passive pre-amp (though not a TVC passive as some have gain windings as well) as that will not allow the input voltage to reach that stage. This is one of the reasons why some people don't like passives as they are used to and like the distortion involved.
Richard, erm, I'm not quite sure how to say this, but part of the listening experience I described was with a passive preamp.....
My mate Ian, who owns a copy of a Music First preamp (Anthony has heard this preamp himself in both my system and his) had brought it round to my place for a sesh, as I wanted to hear it in my system (along with his Rega DAC). It was only the second part of the sesh where my active Croft preamp was used and both were played at the same level, with my valve amp.
Our listening session concluded that there was very little to separate the performance of the two preamps, and so the sound I described, where I couldn't hear the clipping you're stating that should be happening, was with BOTH the Croft and Ian's passive preamp, in-line.
So, in terms of this debate, I'm not quite sure where we go from here.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 21:21
Richard, erm, I'm not quite sure how to say this, but part of the listening experience I described was with a passive preamp.....
My mate Ian, who owns a copy of a Music First preamp (Anthony has heard this preamp himself in both my system and his) had brought it round to my place for a sesh, as I wanted to hear it in my system (along with his Rega DAC). It was only the second part of the sesh where my active Croft preamp was used and both were played at the same level, with my valve amp.
Our listening session concluded that there was very little to separate the performance of the two preamps, and so the sound I described, where I couldn't hear the clipping you're stating that should be happening, was with BOTH the Croft and Ian's passive preamp in-line.
So, in terms of this debate, I'm not quite sure where we go from here.
Marco.
The Music first is a TVC with additional gain windings so in this instant on this subject is virtually the same as a line level active pre-amp.
I have already said my statement doesn't apply to TVC's with gain windings. It applies to attenuator passives either pot or stepped attenuator or LDR based, or TVC without gain windings.
Hi Anthony,
as far as the position of the volume control is concerned on a given preamp, for eg, marco's croft, as you know it will depend on how much gain the preamp has at that position, and also, how much headroom the power amp has on the input stage, now without looking at the spec of the croft i couldnt tell you what its gain structure is, but going by what i have heard and seen of it in marco's system i would suspect that it is quite a low gain unit.
I can't comment on the gain structure of the Croft, as I don't know what it is, but since I've changed the shunted stepped attenuator for the DACT pot you recommended, the volume available on the early travel of the pot is much greater than before, and the preamp sounds far better as a result, as you heard for yourself last time you were up, after you fitted the DACT pot.
Consequently, 'normal' listening levels (with CD) occur at around 9 or 10 o'clock on the dial, which I think is about average. But, and this is where the debate lies, I'm still able to get the Croft to the 3 o'clock position, which is most certainly very loud indeed, but to my ears with no audible distortion or clipping, and with vinyl, almost all the way to full volume, with the same results. The Copper amp and the Lockwoods just lap it up!!
I don't think that your preamp necessarily has more gain (it may do), but rather that most of the available loudness level happens within the early travel of the pot, if that makes sense. Therefore, with your preamp in my system, the level of sound I'm describing with the Croft at 3 o'clock, would happen with your preamp at 12 o'clock.
Does that make sense? :)
Also, and I did ask you before earlier in the thread, the last time you were round (with Ian and Mark Grant), and we used Ian's Copper amp and his passive preamp, and we played that rock music (Tool) at 'live gig' levels, when you told me afterwards that the sound you experienced was the best you'd ever heard from a system, did you hear anything which to your ears resembled clipping?
Marco.
You don't get it. Valve distortion is valve distortion, and it is very minor, there is more effect from type of valve and circuit design than there is from valves as a genre per se.
Yes I did not say I expert in this I am just merly trying to really understand where you coming from
What I am talking about here is very simple, but is complex in its effects as it is psycho acoustic based, what the ear likes and does not like, as opposed to what is objectively correct.
I actually think thats my point is if I like what I am hearing then I do not really care if its soft clipping what I care about is the actual music being played and how much I enjoy it
With a valve amp that manifests as soft clipping which is largely 2nd harmonic distortion and smaller amounts of other even harmonics and minimal amounts of 3rd and other odd order harmonics. As any musical instrument designer will tell you, the art of making a good musical instrument is creating the timbre for that instrument, and that is harmonic pattern, and if left just at the fundamental tone it would be boring *and not get loud*.
When buying a guitar I would listen to its tone its body how it projected, With a hifi system its about the coherant whole how it gives the illusion of the band playing in your room and how I emotionall connect to it
The overtones they try to create for the specific timbre of that instrument is even harmonic patterns as they are musically in tune with the fundamental. They avoid odd harmonics as they are not musically in tune (think of a choral harmony and one member of the ensemble is flat or sharp, you hear the person who is off very easily). So it is the musicians who should play loudly or not, not the reproducing equipment creating it as a artifice.
This is interesting point Richard music needs to have dynamics to sound good I been to a lot of concerts somewhere around the 2000 and I judge my system by that standard. So there are times when lets say I am at a Jazz gig and I think no HIfi system no matter how good can produce this, so then I think its about the illusion of the event
As I have tried to explain, perceived loudness is a psycho acoustic anomaly, yes you still have louder, but what the human brain perceives as *loud* is more a result of distortion than power.
I have no idea where my systems fits into this that for others to decide but when Howard came round he thought what he heard was one of the best systems he has heard in this country and the few others who heard my systemAnyway you are one or the few people here on this forum who has heard what I am trying to do in optimum as designed domestic conditions, so you judge, but the last thing you could say about it is that it recreates a good PA system, if that is what someone wants go elsewhere. I think you have a unquie sounding system
I really liked what it did and certainly presents music in a unqiue way, as I said you more than welcome to hear mine so it give you an idea of what I value in soundpeople pays their money and they takes their choices.
Yes sure do my argument is in the end we all have own sound values and the sound we end with will depend on this and the ears we have.
The Music first is a TVC with additional gain windings so in this instant on this subject is virtually the same as a line level active pre-amp.
Well it's the only passive preamp I've heard that I could live with. It sounds OUTSTANDING, which I'm sure Anthony will confirm. Any other passive preamps I've used so far (obviously I haven't heard yours yet) sound 'small', lack drive and dynamics, produce restricted transient attack from the partnering power amp, and consequently, make music sound 'soft'.
In any case, I think there are still too many anomalies regarding the issue of clipping, and as such at this point in time, I remain unconvinced by your argument.
I'm afraid it's going to have to take me to hear what you're describing (and someone there to explain exactly what I should be listening for) before I will believe what you're suggesting is 'factual', because at the moment, when I play rock music at 75% volume on the Croft, it just sounds like a massive big, powerful, clean and controlled sound, likes of which you get a live rock gig (only of course on a smaller scale), where the PA system is top-notch, as are the acoustics.
John will know exactly what I mean here, as he's both heard my system, and like me, has been to more than a few rock gigs over the years! :fingers: ;)
Are the amps used at gigs generally clipping when the music is seriously loud, but still sounds superb? Because, if so, then there is no argument, as what I'm hearing there, is what I'm hearing at home on my system (at 75% volume on the Croft), albeit on a smaller scale.
Marco.
This is interesting point Richard music needs to have dynamics to sound good I been to a lot of concerts somewhere around the 2000 and I judge my system by that standard. So there are times when lets say I am at a Jazz gig and I think no HIfi system no matter how good can produce this, so then I think its about the illusion of the event.
Me too, although only if the sound quality at the concert was good! ;)
Generally though, I strive to make music reproduced on my system resemble, as closely as possible, the sound of real voices and instruments, and what I hear when listening to them live. If I've been to a rock gig, then I want my system, as far as possible, to recreate the visceral intensity and throbbing, pulsing, menacing, trouser-flapping sound of the PA system I heard at the gig, but only if the sound at the gig was good!
If I've been to a jazz club, I want to recreate the sound I heard there of the 'shmaltzy' sound of the sax, or the piercing vibrancy of the trumpet, or the perfect pitch, tone and timbre of the piano, along with also capturing the intimacy of the venue.
I believe that I have created a realistic and convincing snapshot of that with music reproduced on my system, as no doubt you have too, with your awesome OBs! :cool:
Marco.
anthonyTD
14-08-2011, 22:42
Hi Anthony,
I can't comment on the gain structure of the Croft, as I don't know what it is, but since I've changed the shunted stepped attenuator for the DACT pot you recommended, the volume available on the early travel of the pot is much greater than before, and the preamp sounds far better as a result, as you heard for yourself last time you were up, after you fitted the DACT pot.
Consequently, 'normal' listening levels (with CD) occur at around 9 or 10 o'clock on the dial, which I think is about average. But, and this is where the debate lies, I'm still able to get the Croft to the 3 o'clock position, which is most certainly very loud indeed, but to my ears with no audible distortion or clipping, and with vinyl, almost all the way to full volume, with the same results. The Copper amp and the Lockwoods just lap it up!!
I don't think that your preamp necessarily has more gain (it may do), but rather that most of the available loudness level happens within the early travel of the pot, if that makes sense. Therefore, with your preamp in my system, the level of sound I'm describing with the Croft at 3 o'clock, would happen with your preamp at 12 o'clock.
Does that make sense? :)
Also, and I did ask you before earlier in the thread, the last time you were round (with Ian and Mark Grant), and we used Ian's Copper amp and his passive preamp, and we played that rock music (Tool) at 'live gig' levels, when you told me afterwards that the sound you experienced was the best you'd ever heard from a system, did you hear anything which to your ears resembled clipping?
Marco.
hi Marco,
ok, i think i know where Richard is coming from, yes, its posible at those levels there is a soft clipping going on at the extreeme dynamic levels [i am talking about fractions of a second] with that kind of music, however, it was not noticeable, therefore, does it matter ?
Also, unlike a lot of solid state amps where when you get to the absolute limits of the power supply, the clipping affect is objectionable, valve amps [on the whole] clip more gracefully, so, yes, at seriously powerfull levels valve amps will suffer from clipping, however, the way that they clip is far more gentle and subtle than that of most solid state designs, therefore when a valve amp clips the affect is more akin to compresion rather than the very noticeable and objectionably abrupt way solid state designs clip.This i feel is another reason why, to get the same perceived sound level and dynamic presence you get from a decent valve amp, a solid state amp without going into clipping would have to be many times the power rating in comparison.
Anthony,TD...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 22:43
Well it's the only passive preamp I've heard that I could live with. It sounds OUTSTANDING, which I'm sure Anthony will confirm. Any other passive preamps I've used so far (obviously I haven't heard yours yet) sound 'small', lack drive and dynamics, produce restricted transient attack from the partnering power amp, and consequently, make music sound 'soft'.
In any case, I think there are still too many anomalies regarding the issue of clipping, and as such at this point in time, I remain unconvinced by your argument.
I'm afraid it's going to have to take me to hear what you're describing (and someone there to explain exactly what I should be listening for) before I will believe what you're suggesting is 'factual', because at the moment, when I play rock music at 75% volume on the Croft, it just sounds like a massive big, powerful, clean and controlled sound, likes of which you get a live rock gig (only of course on a smaller scale), where the PA system is top-notch, as are the acoustics.
John will know exactly what I mean here, as he's both heard my system, and like me, has been to more than a few rock gigs over the years! :fingers: ;)
Are the amps used at gigs generally clipping when the music is seriously loud, but sounds superb? Because, if so, then there is no argument, as what I'm hearing there, is what I'm hearing at home on my system (at 75% volume on the Croft), albeit on a smaller scale.
Marco.
At no point have I said what you are listening to is bad, you really haven't understood my explanation if you think that. What I am saying is that it is an artifice, but so is a concert PA system. Neither are reality.
Reality for an electric band is when they practice with just their back line, which is more often that not clipping valve amps :doh: A good PA is supposed to try and reproduce that on a larger scale. For example the Queen sound was old VOX AC30's, lots stacked up (this one I know as I once had to lug them on stage before they became famous), where as the Hendrix sound was grossly microphonoc valves in Marshall stacks, he used to select duff valves so he could play with the feedback and distortion.
If that is what you want then you are still stuck in the home PA brainwash that was started by Linn and Naim and you have just got yourself a better version of it. I am looking for something completely different. I am looking for musical, timing, spacial and tonal accuracy in all elements of music. A musician could probably explain it better than me, I wish Gromit was here posting in this thread as he explains it very well.
Yes, but I get all that, TOO, as well as the 'PA experience' (although the latter only with rock music)! :)
That's why I said earlier that I've achieved 'themionic Naim', with Anthony's Copper amp, and much, MUCH more. The "much, MUCH more" bit being the "musical, timing, spacial and tonal accuracy in all elements of music", you describe and which you want from equipment. I also want that, and get it!
The combination of the Croft and/or Ian's passive pre/Copper amp, through my Lockwoods, does all of the above - that's why I love my system so much....!!! :cool:
Marco.
hi Marco,
ok, i think i know where Richard is coming from, yes, its posible at those levels there is a soft clipping going on at the extreeme dynamic levels with that kind of music, however, it was not noticeable, therefore, does it matter ?
Also, unlike a lot of solid state amps where when you get to the absolute limits of the power supply, the clipping affect is objectionable, valve amps [on the whole] clip more gracefully, so, yes, at seriously powerfull levels valve amps will suffer from clipping, however, the way that they clip is far more gentle and subtle than that of most solid state designs, therefore when a valve amp clips the affect is more akin to compresion rather than the very noticeable and objectionably abrupt way solid state designs clip.This i feel is another reason why, to get the same perceived sound level and dynamic presence you get from a decent valve amp, a solid state amp without going into clipping would have to be many times the power rating in comparison.
Okay dokes, but I'm afraid I don't hear the effect of this "soft clipping", although I won't dispute that it is happening.
You've hit the nail on the head though here:
[I]however, it was not noticeable, therefore, does it matter ?
Nope, mate, does it f*ck. It matters not one iota because what I'm achieving when playing rock music at 75% volume on my preamp appears to be a realistic snapshot of a live gig, on a smaller scale (as indeed you said yourself when you heard it), and I've NEVER managed to achieve that, or the superb sound I'm getting now in general, with any solid-state amps.
If I can't hear it, then the effect of soft-clipping is simply irrelevant (and it appears that it's also an artifice of live amplified music, which my system is simply faithfully replicating), so for me, the discussion is over.
Verdict: soft-clipping on valve amps, for me, is a total non-issue! :cool:
Marco.
Interesting thread although i wont pretend to understand a lot of it.
My present amp is a 100w AVI which replaced a high current 60w Rotel. The Rotel sounded icey clear compared with previous seperates and i did love it. It could sound very forceful with some music where as the AVI has a more relaxed presentation.
From the post it would appear the Rotel had less head room and may have been clipping. It never sounded distorted but i can listen to my present system for longer. Its just easier to listen to , if sometimes not as exciting with some music as before.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 23:36
hi Marco,
ok, i think i know where Richard is coming from, yes, its posible at those levels there is a soft clipping going on at the extreeme dynamic levels [i am talking about fractions of a second] with that kind of music, however, it was not noticeable, therefore, does it matter ?
Also, unlike a lot of solid state amps where when you get to the absolute limits of the power supply, the clipping affect is objectionable, valve amps [on the whole] clip more gracefully, so, yes, at seriously powerfull levels valve amps will suffer from clipping, however, the way that they clip is far more gentle and subtle than that of most solid state designs, therefore when a valve amp clips the affect is more akin to compresion rather than the very noticeable and objectionably abrupt way solid state designs clip.This i feel is another reason why, to get the same perceived sound level and dynamic presence you get from a decent valve amp, a solid state amp without going into clipping would have to be many times the power rating in comparison.
Anthony,TD...
At last someone seems to have twigged. Though the effect is not at extreme transients at 75% VC it is more gross than that, obviously depending on recorded and mastered and cut levels, but normal levels of that and line level matching means that at 75% it is far more than extreme transient clip.
Now you need to explore the loudness effect of transient clip, and even more so with gross clip. As I said many posts ago listen to a transistor radio at a couple of watts full up and tell how me loud it is. It is psycho acoustic, perceived loudness is more a facet of distortion than power.
Listen to your amp and pre at 60% VC. Now borrow as high powered amplifier as possible and listen to it a 60% VC, does it really sound more loud, not really, it has greater visceral and physical effect and your ears may be ringing, but it will only get that same loudness effect at the onset of clip, by which point your will probably be in pain.
Sure ok, Richard, but see my last post. As far as I'm concerned, none of this really matters :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 23:47
Okay dokes, but I'm afraid I don't hear the effect of this "soft clipping", although I won't dispute that it is happening.
You've hit the nail on the head though here:
Nope, mate, does it f*ck. It matters not one iota because what I'm achieving when playing rock music at 75% volume on my preamp is obviously a realistic snapshot of a live gig, on a smaller scale (as indeed you said yourself when you heard it), and I've NEVER managed to achieve that, or the superb sound I'm getting now in general, with any solid-state amps.
If I can't hear it, then the effect of soft clipping is simply irrelevant (and it appears that it's also an artifice of live amplified music, which my system is simply faithfully replicating), so for me, the discussion is over.
Verdict: soft clipping, for me, is a total non-issue! :cool:
Marco.
It is an issue because that is where your perceived "loud" comes from, and why a lower powered valve amp sounds "loud", which I thought was the point of this thread.
Lol - well that might have been Dave's original point. What I was interested in was whether this "soft clipping" was an issue of any concern, which I've concluded it isn't.
My final take on the matter was expressed earlier:
If I can't hear it, then the effect of soft-clipping is simply irrelevant (and it appears that it's also an artifice of live amplified music, which my system is simply faithfully replicating), so for me, the discussion is over.
Verdict: soft-clipping on valve amps, for me, is a total non-issue! :cool:
If you want to carry on discussing the "loud" thing, then do so, (I'm not really interested in that) but the soft-clipping debate, for me, is now done and dusted.
Back to the music! :gig:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
14-08-2011, 23:58
Sure ok, Richard, but see my last post. As far as I'm concerned, none of this really matters :)
Marco.
What I don't understand is why it is always about your system. This forum, if the membership figures are correct, contains thousands of systems. Are all the rest of them crap, and are all the rest of their owners not interested as to why their systems perform the way they do in this aspect and the limitations involved.
Well, that's up to them to contribute to the discussion, and give their input if they wish. There are many fantastic systems belonging to members here, quite a few I've heard and enjoyed. Of course the membership figures are genuine. What are you trying to imply?
And of course I talk about my system, as my experiences are based on it, just as you refer to your experiences, based on what you hear with the equipment you use.
All is normal! :)
Marco.
worthingpagan
15-08-2011, 00:06
What I don't understand is why it is always about your system. This forum, if the membership figures are correct, contains thousands of systems. Are all the rest of them crap, and are all the rest of their owners not interested as to why their systems perform the way they do in this aspect and the limitations involved.
Perhaps most people are just happy listening to their music instead of listening out for sounds they can't hear, but should hear and might hear :eyebrows:
:lolsign:
Indeed!!
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
15-08-2011, 00:12
Perhaps most people are just happy listening to their music instead of listening out for sounds they can't hear, but should hear and might hear :eyebrows:
You see, you for one just don't get it, we are discussing why lower powered valve amps sound as "loud" as high powered solid state amps. If you read the thread you will find I have given the reason for it at least 10 times.
worthingpagan
15-08-2011, 00:44
You see, you for one just don't get it, we are discussing why lower powered valve amps sound as "loud" as high powered solid state amps. If you read the thread you will find I have given the reason for it at least 10 times.
I thought it was nearer 11 times, still. And for the record, "I get it" quite frequently :lol::booty:
:lies:
Only kidding, ya sex stud! Here, play being the 'rear-gunner'..... :goodfriends: :goodfriends:
:lol: :lol:
Marco.
I think there are quite a few of us getting it.
Let's try another thought experiment: I play a piece of music on my system at the classic power output of 40Wpc RMS. This would be, on my system, objectionably loud. Given my speaker's sensitivity (90dB/W) it would be creating over 105dB SPL of average level. Excruciating, most likely.
Now, if I were to double, redouble and double again power output, I would need to increase the output by 9dB to be running at 320Wpc, close to my amp's maximum. So, when running at the 40W level, will there be musical peaks of 9dB above the average? Quite possibly, as Richard and indeed Musical Fidelity have been saying for years :)
The difference is that a real 40W amp would be significantly clipping the transient peaks, flattening their spikes and probably sounding horrible, because it has no headroom to go much above its power level for anything but short lengths of time. My amp, on the other hand, would handle the peak because it has the headroom. What about a bigger peak, say 12dB above the average? In that case, my amp may well clip. However, my ears would be bleeding by then.
So do amps clip when reproducing real music at significant volume? Possibly, and the audibility will depend on how much of the peak is preserved.
I think you have to consider the source as well. Its possible to say with accuracy what the maximum voltage output peak voltage (as thats whats important when considering clipping) is with a CD or digital source, Its nowhere as easy to do the same with a analog source like LP.
I think you have to consider the source as well. Its possible to say with accuracy what the maximum voltage output peak voltage (as thats whats important when considering clipping) is with a CD or digital source, Its nowhere as easy to do the same with a analog source like LP.
Agreed Nick, and I referred to power rather than voltage to keep it simple.
anthonyTD
15-08-2011, 08:41
hi All,
its worth noting that any part of the source be it CD player, preamp, etc has the potential to clip the next stage if there isnt sufficient headroom, be it in the preamp for the source, or power amp for the preamp.
however, i fear this is not what Richard is getting at, another point worth noting is, if we are to believe that with valve amps your percieved loudness level is acheived much earlier than with solid state, then simply by using a valve amp, your more likely to preserve your hearing for longer!:ner:
Sorry Richard i couldnt resist that one!:)
Anthony,TD...
its worth noting that any part of the source be it CD player, preamp, etc has the potential to clip the next stage if there isnt sufficient headroom, be it in the preamp for the source, or power amp for the preamp.
Yes, my point was with red book CD you know the peak voltage from it will be 2.828v so if you know the gain and limits of all the parts down the chain you can say for certain if it will go into the less linear region of any part (including the loudspeakers as they are not blameless in this either).
Far less easy to do with vinyl.
But yes, if there is too much gain and not enough headroom any bit in the chain can clip.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
15-08-2011, 08:53
hi All,
its worth noting that any part of the source be it CD player, preamp, etc has the potential to clip the next stage if there isnt sufficient headroom, be it in the preamp for the source, or power amp for the preamp.
however, i fear this is not what Richard is getting at, another point worth noting is, if we are to believe that with valve amps your percieved loudness level is acheived much earlier than with solid state, then simply by using a valve amp, your more likely to preserve your hearing for longer!:ner:
Sorry Richard i couldnt resist that one!:)
Anthony,TD...
That is fine Anthony, what people don't seem to recognise is that I am talking about a valve amp advantage not a criticism. It has been an interesting process in delving into human nature, as the usual parties have just thought or presumed what they think they should think or have been programmed to think, without the benefit of engaging the brain.
Someone earlier mentioned MF's take on this, well along with just about everyone else I thought it daft. Their solution was to provide a booster amp that made it next to impossible to clip the signal. The down side is it make your volume control potentially a weapon :rolleyes:. You can of course just put up with it as most people do, saying to themselves "that is a bit loud" and turning it down a bit, without realising the mechanism behind this. I take a different approach, at the sacrifice of dem room con jobs and sales techniques (which I don't need because I don't deal with them) I make it so the amp is extremely unlikely to go into any significant levels of transient clip even with full VC.
It has been an interesting process in delving into human nature, as the usual parties have just thought or presumed what they think they should think or have been programmed to think, without the benefit of engaging the brain.
Have you any idea how disrespectful and condescending that sounds??
And you go on about ad hominem? How hypocritical of you. You're clearly attacking the person behind the opinion, not the opinion itself! And you wonder why your posting style winds people up??
I'm not sure whom you're referring to there, Richard, but we're back to your inability to express a point without the need to ridicule/demean people who think differently from you. That is completely unacceptable on this forum.
You're on a final warning, as I will not tolerate this any further. If I see ANY evidence of that behaviour again, your next ban will be permanent.
Marco.
chris@panteg
15-08-2011, 09:32
Marco
I must say you seem to be extremely sensitive to anything that may even in the slightest , might be perceived as a criticism of your kit !
In this instance it seems to me to be a fairly plausible explanation , i used valve amps for many years and i enjoyed them immensely but I'm almost 99% certain a lot of the enjoyable sounds i heard were in fact a distortion or soft clipping in the way Richard has described , i would like to know if Guy Sargeant has any thoughts on this .
Hi Chris,
Marco
I must say you seem to be extremely sensitive to anything that may even in the slightest , might be perceived as a criticism of your kit !
Not sure what you mean. As far as I know, no-one's being critical of my kit. I'm only saying what I hear when I listen to my system loudly, and debating the result of "soft-clipping" with others. In fact, that's no longer the case, as I'm satisfied that it's a non-issue, mainly because I can't hear it, and neither can others who've heard my system.
Marco.
Chris, don't worry on this one. I've already suggested that IN MARCO'S SYSTEM and IN MARCO'S ROOM (which is tiny for such large speakers :lolsign:), he would easily be able to deafen himself and others with a good quality 40W valve amp - and quite easily from an equivalent decently supplied 40W solid-state amp as well I suspect. A sensitive FIFTEEN INCH Tannoy driver in a suitable big box, a very low loss crossover and heavy-duty cables (as I believe the VDH "Wind" to be) is an order of magnitude more efficient to the squeakers most of us use (including my ancient antique Spendors) - around 10db more sensitive than mine I think.
What WOULD be fascinating would be to see what an original 15-20 WPC Naim Nait would do, as it clips so graciously (only their 135's dod it anywhere near as well at the time).
Exactly, Dave.
I'm not disputing that my amp will clip at some point. It's the fact is that in my system, because my speakers are so efficient, and my room is small, I'd never get to the stage where I heard it clipping!! ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
15-08-2011, 10:05
Hi Chris,
Not sure what you mean. As far as I know, no-one's being critical of my kit. I'm only saying what I hear when I listen to my system loudly, and debating the result of "soft-clipping" with others. In fact, that's no longer the case, as I'm satisfied that it's a non-issue, mainly because I can't hear it, and neither can others who've heard my system.
Marco.
Hi Marco
No one is being critical of your kit :) That's the point ! Its actually a positive advantage that Richard is talking about , but the fact its described as a form of clipping seems to be unacceptable .
worthingpagan
15-08-2011, 10:06
I'm so vain i thought the good dr was referring to me! But i've never said I know diddley squat about anything other than what I hear with my own ears, which, after years of heavy metal at loud volumes and Motorhead concerts (the loudest band in the world, fact) my ears still don't bleed :lol::cool:
worthingpagan
15-08-2011, 10:08
Hi Marco
No one is being critical of your kit :) That's the point ! Its actually a positive advantage that Richard is talking about , but the fact its described as a form of clipping seems to be unacceptable .
Nah! There's a way to get your point across
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
15-08-2011, 10:16
Exactly, Dave.
I'm not disputing that my amp will clip at some point. It's the fact is that in my system, because my speakers are so efficient, and my room is small, I'd never get to the stage where I heard it clipping!! ;)
Marco.
:doh: you wont hear it as clipping which in most peoples cases is the result of gross clipping, you will hear it as loud, which is an artifice created by transient soft clipping.
The circle turns again.
StanleyB
15-08-2011, 10:30
you wont hear it as clipping which in most peoples cases is the result of gross clipping, you will hear it as loud, which is an artifice created by transient soft clipping.
Not true Richard. What you'll hear is a reduction in dynamics of the loud passages that are being clipped. i.e. the clipped passages will sound less loud that they normally would have if they had not been clipped. The unclipped passages won't sound louder.
I went through this and did some experiments with my old mate Taresh Vadgama from NAD when he was designing the soft clipping circuit for the NAD amps in the early 80's.
Richard and Stan, you're BOTH right, as Richard has commented on "decent" valve-clipping appearing to be an enhancement of the valve-vibe and Stan stating quite correctly (IMO) that the sound will gently compress, as I believe the old valvey Fairchild compressors used to when many singles were produced, giving a "ballsier" sound to the finished product - I believe :)
P.S. In Marco's case, any slight compression in his Copper-Amp would be at such a huge volume that it would be nigh-on inaudible above the din :D :peace:
StanleyB
15-08-2011, 10:43
I have a very good scope :eyebrows:.
:doh: you wont hear it as clipping which in most peoples cases is the result of gross clipping, you will hear it as loud, which is an artifice created by transient soft clipping.
The circle turns again.
Indeed.
Although it undoubtedly exists in normal circumstances (I'm NOT disputing that), "soft-clipping", or any other form of clipping, doesn't exist to my ears with my power amp (even with the preamp at 75% volume), because my system won't allow me to hear it, as my speakers are so efficient and my system is in a small room, so for me, it's a total non-issue.
Therefore why are we discussing it in reference to my system?
Basically, 50W of pure Class A valve power into huge 95db efficiency speakers, in my small room, means that my ears will give in before the amp or speakers will (and the former start to clip). What's so hard to understand? Jeez!
Marco.
P.S Anthony will be along later to explain this better than I can.
P.S. In Marco's case, any slight compression in his Copper-Amp would be at such a huge volume that it would be nigh-on inaudible above the din :D :peace:
Precisely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But that "din" sounds just like snapshot of a live gig! ;)
Why can Chris or Richard not comprehend what you obviously do? :doh: :doh:
Marco.
I thought, being a reasonably knowledgeable lot around here we didn’t partner inefficient speakers with underpowered amps in large rooms in the first place so clipping be it soft clipping associated with valve equipment, or hard clipping associated with solid state, or even that dreadful racket class T and D make when clipping shouldn’t be an issue.
I think Richard is right in that the vast majority of amplifiers, if you’ve got the volume knob turned 75% of its travel, the likelihood is the amp clips.
Whether you can hear it clipping and whether that clipping is more or less unpleasant to listen to if detectable at all, is another matter.
Seems simple to me. Don’t use an amp that needs more than a third turn on the volume pot to achieve your preferred listening volume :scratch:
"Why can Chris or Richard not comprehend what you obviously do? :doh: :doh:
Marco"
I cannot answer that one Marco ;) but having owned, sold and loved large speakers (OK, middle sized in 1970's terms :)), I do know where you're coming from where this "ease" of drive is concerned :cool:
Bring back IMF transmission lines, JBL L200's, BIG Tannoys and AR LST's - When I started, these weren't regarded as huge speakers (well, the L200's maybe). Big certainly, but not unmanageable. Now, the cheapo Wharfedale Denton mk1's look humungous :(
I thought, being a reasonably knowledgeable lot around here we didn’t partner inefficient speakers with underpowered amps in large rooms in the first place so clipping be it soft clipping associated with valve equipment, or hard clipping associated with solid state, or even that dreadful racket class T and D make when clipping shouldn’t be an issue.
I think Richard is right in that the vast majority of amplifiers, if you’ve got the volume knob turned 75% of its travel, the likelihood is the amp clips.
Whether you can hear it clipping and whether that clipping is more or less unpleasant to listen to if detectable at all, is another matter.
Seems simple to me. Don’t use an amp that needs more than a third turn on the volume pot to achieve your preferred listening volume :scratch:
Doesn't Marco's preamp have a calibrated stepped attenuator?
Remember, volume controls match relative levels. not our fault that the laws on the mass produced "audio-log" ones seem to give all or nothing in the first third to half rotation from minimum?
Doesn't Marco's preamp have a calibrated stepped attenuator?
Yes.
Marco.
It was meant as a rule of thumb Dave ;)
I haven’t got a clue what Marco uses as a pre amp and yes there will obviously be a different response from a stepped attenuator and a log pot.
It seems to me that the main protagonists have got bogged down in the finer details and the only way the factual matter in the discussion will be settled is to go to Marco’s and measure at what point the amp clips.
Fact is, if one doesn’t find the sound of an amp clipping disturbing then it don’t really matter whether it clips or, how it clips, does it? :)
anthonyTD
15-08-2011, 11:41
hi all,
first of all i would like to try and put this " volume knob position confusion" to bed once and for all, it is posible to have a preamp that even at full travel of the volume control will not have the ability to clip or overload the power amp, its just gain!
a typical example of this; when i sell a preamp to a UK customer, i ask what power amp its going to be used with, i then look at the input sensitivity of the power amp and set the gain structure of the preamp to give maximum power from the power amp at around 12 oclock, [based on typical source voltages] now for the american market, i take a diffrent aproach because the americans seem to prefer to be able to turn up their preamp to well past 3 oclock for a maximum perceved volume level.
So, the position of the volume control in any system as far as a marked measurement can be very miss-leading at best.
Now, onto the clipping affect of valve amps versus solid state, both technologies "clip" run out of steam etc when they get near the limits set by the power supply or the output devices, however, the way it happens is key to understanding why one can be more tolerable than the other.
It is well known that when valves get to nearing their limit they do clip, but because there is a compresion affect when aproaching this level it is far less noticable than when it happens with solid state designs, also, we have to consider the harmonics created at those levels by each technolgy, ie; valves can by nature only produce predominantly [in measureable amounts] low order harmonics, 2nds, 3rds, where as solid state has the ability to not only produce low order, but also higher order harmonics, which are much more objectionable in even small amounts.
Concerning Marco's system and the Theoretical level limit that would need to be acheived before one would be aware of the system clipping to an extent that was noticeable, well, i seriously think the speakers would run out of SPL in that room before any noticeable and therefore detremental clipping would be of any concern.
Anthony,TD...
Vinyleyes
15-08-2011, 11:44
Well I don't pretend even to know the intricacies of all this debate .... but getting back to the original topic ... My Radford STA25 goes just about as loud as my Nakamichi PA-7 through my 92db Tannoys .... and both of them get a little scrappy sounding around 3 oclock .... ( and so do the neighbours ... :) hahah! ) .... so there you go ........... :cool:
Concerning Marco's system and the Theoretical level limit that would need to be acheived before one would be aware of the system clipping to an extent that was noticeable, well, i seriously think the speakers would run out of SPL in that room before any noticeable and therefore detremental clipping would be of any concern.
Exactamondo - note the bit underlined, in particular!! :)
Now could certain parties here please accept and embrace that fact? ;)
Otherwise, we're simply destined for yet more circular argument, in which case I will just lock the thread.
Ta!
Marco.
Awww, come on AnthonyTD how many manufacturers set the gain of their volume pots to a specific market?
How many even use stepped attenuators come to that?
Don’t most commercially available amps we average audio enthusiast use have log pots?
I don’t think what happens with Marco’s kit is of much relevance to the whole clipping issue.
For a start he has huge fairly efficient speakers in a shoebox (no offense meant Marco)
And £6000 approx worth of custom built power pushing them.
Seems simple to me. Don’t use an amp that needs more than a third turn on the volume pot to achieve your preferred listening volume :scratch:
That's too simplistic, John. Systems have different overall gain and even different gain for different sources. Many preamps have adjustable gain, too. You cannot relate average listening levels or maximum headroom to the volume control position.
Yep, it’s simplistic and yes I appreciate all the points about differing gain per component.
I did write, “rule of thumb” and that’s what I meant :doh:
I still maintain that for the “majority” of commercially available systems you are unlikely to go far wrong using this rule.
(expecting a whole list of components and circumstances to prove the exceptions now :eyebrows:)
I don’t think what happens with Marco’s kit is of much relevance to the whole clipping issue.
For a start he has huge fairly efficient speakers in a shoebox (no offense meant Marco)
And £6000 approx worth of custom built power pushing them.
No offence taken, mate. What you say is a fact.
My system, and the (superb) sonic results I achieve with it in my room, are WAY off what would be considered as 'normal', so if this discussion is to continue, it's best if my system is kept out of it! :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
15-08-2011, 15:09
Indeed.
Although it undoubtedly exists in normal circumstances (I'm NOT disputing that), "soft-clipping", or any other form of clipping, doesn't exist to my ears with my power amp (even with the preamp at 75% volume), because my system won't allow me to hear it, as my speakers are so efficient and my system is in a small room, so for me, it's a total non-issue.
Therefore why are we discussing it in reference to my system?
Basically, 50W of pure Class A valve power into huge 95db efficiency speakers, in my small room, means that my ears will give in before the amp or speakers will (and the former start to clip). What's so hard to understand? Jeez!
Marco.
P.S Anthony will be along later to explain this better than I can.
Simply because it makes no difference if your amp is 50w or 1000w, whether your amp is class A to Z, whether your speakers are 85db or 95db, or if you room is small or the Albert Hall. At 75% of your VC on your pre-amp your power amp is transient clipping, and not extreme transient, but normal transient. That clipping in the case of your amp is even harmonic so is *musical* but an artifice. In the case of a solid state amp that clipping is largely odd harmonic because it reproduces the clipped wave form better (produces a better and more precise replica of the wave form squaring), so is unmusical. Which is why clipping valve amps are not noticed until it is gross, but solid state amps are noticed very quickly, but in both case the onset of distortion makes your ear brain interface say that "this is loud".
This difference in noticing the onset of distortion combined with the psycho acoustic effect of loud being more distortion related than power related is the reason why people think valve amps sound louder per watt that solid state amps - the answer to the OP.
As far as Stan's intercept is concerned, it will sound louder as your ears detect the onset of distortion as "loud", which has been the point of this thread. It is a pretty well known psycho acoustic fact.
Oh FFS, I've had my FILL of this circular argument! No amount of logical explanation of my unique situation, by people who know what they're talking about, such as Anthony, seems to penetrate into your stubborn, thick dome!!!! :mental:
One thing I can't stand is blinkered absolutism and people disrespectfully TELLING me what I'm listening to in my own bloody system!! :nono:
<Thread closed>
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.