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WOStantonCS100
06-08-2011, 21:04
Forgive me, I'm sure there is a thread on this already; but, I can't find it. (Mods, please move if you find it.)

So...

I've heard it argued both ways for and against using a record clamp on an SL-1200MK2 and there are valid reasons for going with either one. However, as an argument that a record weight should not be used with the stock motor/bearing because of possible added stress to the motor/bearing... ? Well, I didn't think that sounded right; so, I decided to check into it further just for my own peace of mind. This is what I found.

The motor/bearing in the SL-1500MK2's and SL-1400MK2 I have are identical save for the flange for mounting. It's been said that the platter on the 13, 14 and 1500MK2's is heavier and more substantial than the 1200MK2. Holding each platter, in a very unscientific test, it's quite apparent to me that this is true. I then looked up the platter weights in the service manuals.

SL-1500MK2 platter weight is 2.5 kg

SL-1200MK2 platter weight is 2 kg

That, of course, is a .5 kg difference. So, loading the 1200MK2 with another .5 kg would have a neglible effect on the stock motor/bearing. It would be well within the tolerances of the motor/bearing. In other words, adding (in my case) a TTWeights Classic 1 lb. (454 g) record weight would bring the weight just shy of the 1500MK2 platter without the record weight.

As mentioned before (and by others in forums), again, I have to agree that the stock 1200MK2 platter is a down grade in terms of heft from the 13/14/1500MK2's (and 150MK2). The only thing missing is the damping underneath. That MN platter is lookin' better and better everyday. ;)

It's probably lunacy to worry about such things; but, I'm a happier gent for for gaving gone through the exercise. :)

I can post pictures of the two platters side by side, if anyone is interested.

chris@panteg
06-08-2011, 22:02
Hi Biff

Does it sound better to you with the weight though ?

WOStantonCS100
06-08-2011, 23:33
Hi Biff

Does it sound better to you with the weight though ?

Hey Chris,

I have to be honest. Sound tweaking, per se, wasn't the reason I initially purchased the record weight. Indirectly, I guess it was. I was having a time recording one of my LP's (Sergio Mendes - The Great Arrival). The record is a bit dished. I could hear the effects of poor and changing azimuth because of the defect. When playing the side 2, the record weight easily flattens out the record; big improvement in sound. On side 1, there is also improvement, although not as much as on side 2 because there is still space between the platter and the vinyl. However, there's a bit more stability which also improves replay.

I do prefer spinning vinyl with the weight and do think it sounds better; but, that's completely subjective. I always use the weight when recording vinyl as I like the idea of, as much as possible, restricting micro movements of the vinyl while in play. Stylus drag may have little to no effect on the 1200 platter and tightly coupling the disc to the platter just seems to make sense to me. If there are colorations added to the presentation by the weight, thus far I can live with them, considering the problems it solves.

Ooops, I'll add that, the rubbery sound of the stock mat is accentuated by the record weight. I do not like that sound. Until I definitively sort out the platter/mat I'm going to go with, I'm using a felt mat on top of the stock rubber mat. This sounds far better than stock mat, vinyl and record weight as the rubberiness has all but disappeared.

I do think too much about these things...

jandl100
07-08-2011, 07:23
I did a sound quality check with weights/clamps of various masses and types when I had a Techie tt, an SL1700 in this case.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LPclamp2.jpg

Basically, the heavier the weight the better the sound. It wasn't subtle. :)

The Winner, at 0.9Kg :eek: ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LPclamp1.jpg

The Michell clamp was easily the poorest sounding. :scratch:

__

My current tt is a Pioneer dd with suspended chassis - so I can't use silly-weight clamps as it grounds the chassis. The Revolver Pig push-on rubber clamp is ideal in such situations!

Canetoad
07-08-2011, 08:36
If anybody is interested I just weighed my Bruil and it is 375 grams exactly. :)

Spectral Morn
07-08-2011, 08:59
My experience would match Jerry's.

The Revolver pig2 is quite good, The Bruil is quite a bit better (easily audible) and the Oyaide weight is a lot better again.

I have run these weights on a standard bearing motor 1200 with no audible issues at all, just benefits.


Regards D S D L

Marco
07-08-2011, 09:08
Jerry's (and Neil's) experiences are spot on!

However, things change drastically when a Mike New platter is in the equation, as the heavier record weights all then 'over-mass' the pudding - and that's when the Michell clamp comes into its own... ;)

Marco.

jandl100
07-08-2011, 09:32
Hmm .. interesting, Marco. (As usual! ;))

So, when it comes to 'clamps', you reckon it's overall platter+clamp mass that counts, not the mass sitting on top of the LP?

jandl100
07-08-2011, 09:36
My experience would match Jerry's.

The Revolver pig2 is quite good, The Bruil is quite a bit better (easily audible) and the Oyaide weight is a lot better again.



... the problem with my current suspended chassis tt is that it takes very little extra weight to ground the chassis.
So the 'screw/push-down' clamps are the only worthwhile option (lightweight mass-clamps are pretty much useless, imo).
Have you tried a Pig, Marco? ... ime it's better by a long way than the Michell.

WOStantonCS100
07-08-2011, 16:45
The Techy 13-1500MK2's are, also, suspended chassis tables. Depending on how well the rubber cup and spring have aged, using a weight on these tables would not be advisable. I'm currently doing a mad scientist experiement which involves replinthing an SL-1500MK2. Solid plinth, heavier platter (than a 1200MK2), a record weight... maybe a 12" arm?? :scratch: Could be good.


If anybody is interested I just weighed my Bruil and it is 375 grams exactly. :)

Very interesting, indeed. I thought for sure it would outweigh the TTWeights. Looks can be deceiving.

MartinT
07-08-2011, 23:41
I'll second Marco's observations. I used to use a Bruil weight, but with the MN Platter & Achromat combination, the Michell clamp wins.

etphonehome
08-08-2011, 05:56
My SL-1210M5G fitted with MN Bearing, Platter, and Origin Live mat...tried with:

Oyaide Clamp, Michell Clamp, and Audio Technica AT618 clamp.

I like the Audio Tech best.

Tarzan
08-08-2011, 14:11
Just to put my two penneth worth in......, l have used a BREN1,Michell clamp, and the Oyaide weight, and with the Oyaide mat, the Oyaide is quite easily the best, you pay for it mind-but it looks cool as anything and really does its job:)

Canetoad
08-08-2011, 18:23
So how much does the Oyaide weigh? :scratch:

colinB
08-08-2011, 18:36
Think its meant to be 400gm.

Spectral Morn
08-08-2011, 19:31
So how much does the Oyaide weigh? :scratch:

Well that depends on which version. You buy, either the standard short height (STB-MS) or a higher version (STB-HW) (heavier) or buy the cylinders in the different heights.
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/analog/pg634.html

The cylinders can also be bought in carbon fibre.
http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/analog/pg633.html

Specs for actual weight http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/AUDIO/products_category/analog/pg634.html

Essentially the Oyaide weight is changeable to suit different TTs etc.


Regards D S D L

worrasf
10-08-2011, 17:33
Or you can be a cheap skate ****ard like me and buy one of these at 15 :lol:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260829231021&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_636wt_966

360 g laser cut carbon steel disc. I just put a thin coat of incralac clear lacquer on to keep finger marks off.

Works a treat on my system on top of the Achromat - better stereo imaging, tighter bass, crisper plucked strings - a definite improvement.

So unless someone can tell me how the 360g in this disc is inferior to 360g in one of the uber expensive branded weights I'm using the money I saved to help fund a very special cartridge I have been after for a while.

:cool:

Steve

kininigin
10-08-2011, 20:54
Or you can be a cheap skate ****ard like me and buy one of these at 15 :lol:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260829231021&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_636wt_966

360 g laser cut carbon steel disc. I just put a thin coat of incralac clear lacquer on to keep finger marks off.

Works a treat on my system on top of the Achromat - better stereo imaging, tighter bass, crisper plucked strings - a definite improvement.

So unless someone can tell me how the 360g in this disc is inferior to 360g in one of the uber expensive branded weights I'm using the money I saved to help fund a very special cartridge I have been after for a while.

:cool:

Steve

:lolsign: i bought one of them,but offered a tenner (im a proper cheap skate bastard)for it,which he accepted.

Must admit,not done any critical comparisons as of yet,but allways use it.

Mike_New
11-08-2011, 07:25
Forgive me, I'm sure there is a thread on this already; but, I can't find it. (Mods, please move if you find it.)

So...

As mentioned before (and by others in forums), again, I have to agree that the stock 1200MK2 platter is a down grade in terms of heft from the 13/14/1500MK2's (and 150MK2). The only thing missing is the damping underneath. That MN platter is lookin' better and better everyday. ;)It's probably lunacy to worry about such things; but, I'm a happier gent for for gaving gone through the exercise. :)

I can post pictures of the two platters side by side, if anyone is interested.

Then get one and be transported into paroxisms of sonically orgasmic delight!!

Mike_New
11-08-2011, 08:23
I have carefully studied the comments and observations in this thread, and it moves me to make a few observations, which I have been thinking about for a few months.
If we accept that records and including the newer 180gm and 200gm pressings, have labels which sit in a planar location above the recorded surface by as much as 0.3mm. Then we must surely accept that in the absence of a platter or mat which has a suitable label recess, then the use of any sort of weight is going to ensure that the record is clamped by it’s label!!

Thus the recorded surface is effectively floating above the platter or mat.
Note I am using the term recorded surface.

Anyone who claims that this produces superior sound has got to be kidding themselves. I could be more explicit but I am such a nice guy!
The possible exception to this, is when an outer clamp ring is used. Or though again this would not be ideal.

Further it gets a bit more complicated when one considers the use of a small diameter weight such as the ones shown in some of the posts here. If the label recess is sensibly machined into the mat (or Platter) such that all labels are going to be clear of bottoming. Then this small diameter weight is going to push down against the label into a void, thus causing the record to tend to lift upwards due to the counteracting forces. Again the recorded area floats on air.

A typical example of this is the widely accepted Achromat used with my platters. ( I use One) which has a label recess which offers adequate depth.
(This is certainly not a criticism but an observation)
Now what is required in this situation is a clamp that does not bear onto the label surface but just bears onto the runout groove area at the edge of the label area. Thus clamping the recorded surface to the mat (or platter)

Now this can obviously cause a collision problem with the cartridge. However if the outer part of the clamp is made low enough then the cartridge body can ride over it. Dependant on tracking height.
A sensible compromise here is to use a weight as large in diameter as is practical commensurate with not intruding into the runout groove.
The small diameter weights offered by many people, whilst they may look sexy and cosmetically desirable, IMO do little to improve the sonics of replay.

worrasf
11-08-2011, 08:35
The small diameter weights offered by many people, whilst they may look sexy and cosmetically desirable, IMO do little to improve the sonics of replay.

:exactly: My cheapo 15 (or in some cases 10 :eyebrows: ) home made carbon steel 360g weight fits this spec perfectly. When used with the Achromat you can actually observe the outer edge of the vinyl flattening out when the weight is added pushing the label into the recess in the Achromat. It's functional but not eye candy and IMHO is a significant and very cost-effective improvement.

Steve

Ducatiist
11-08-2011, 11:04
I'm just musing now,

but I've just been reading this thread, which has made me think about the screw-down spindle thing on my old Ariston RD 80. I've never used it with an achromat, just with the Linn type mat. In theory you can screw the label down solid, as the spindle is threaded, which would be like having a very heavy weight on the label. The screw part adds very little mass to the three point suspension, which makes me think this might work well with other suspended decks.

Surely this would be a possible/feasible alternative to adding weight to the already heavy platter, if you could get a screw thread machined into the spindle? Especially if your thinking of changing/altering the platter anyway.

I think I need to go and get the RD80 out the loft and have a play.

As I said, only musing and not based on any experience, as I never noticed much difference on the Ariston.

Hope I've not disrupted the thread!!

Stu

Marco
11-08-2011, 12:19
Hi Stu,


I'm just musing now, but I've just been reading this thread, which has made me think about the screw-down spindle thing on my old Ariston RD 80. I've never used it with an achromat, just with the Linn type mat. In theory you can screw the label down solid, as the spindle is threaded, which would be like having a very heavy weight on the label. The screw part adds very little mass to the three point suspension, which makes me think this might work well with other suspended decks.

Surely this would be a possible/feasible alternative to adding weight to the already heavy platter, if you could get a screw thread machined into the spindle?


See here: http://www.kabusa.com/RC1200.htm :)

Marco.

Ducatiist
11-08-2011, 13:25
Hi Marco,

Ahhaaaa, seems I've not had a super dooper idea then!!!!

I'm not too well up on SL1200 mods an all. Just thought I'd had a great thought!!!! DOH

Thanks for putting up with a bewildered fool....This hifi stuff....its all too much!!!

Marco
11-08-2011, 13:28
Lol - maybe it shows that great minds think alike? ;)

Marco.

WOStantonCS100
12-08-2011, 05:36
If only Kevin would change the font on those things! ;) Maybe, a nice script logo or something. Make it "purty" and folks will be all over it. :)

Here are a few snaps of the platters:

SL-1200MK2 platter

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz80/TCKA1ESa/Projects/IMG_8613.jpg

SL-1500MK2 platter

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz80/TCKA1ESa/Projects/IMG_8612.jpg

side by side comparison (notice how the lip of the 1500MK2 (also 13/1400MK2 & 150MK2) is wider than the 1200MK2 (and 16/17/1800MK2), also the magnet ring of the 1500MK2 is completely surrounded by an extension of the platter which in itself is balanced and thicker than that of the 1200MK2)

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz80/TCKA1ESa/Projects/IMG_8614.jpg