View Full Version : New software mods for the Squeezebox Touch...they work.
https://sites.google.com/site/computeraudioorg/squeezebox-touch-tweaks
and the SB forums link for support etc
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89359
Try 'em,
works alsongside Soundchecks mods, just as effective.
:cool:
Good spot - I'll give it a try.
Thanks,
Alex
Ali Tait
07-08-2011, 20:30
Looks interesting Gaz, a good improvement?
Hmm, interesting. Not just me that thinks threading priority and preventing system services from accessing CPU makes a difference then :)
camtwister
08-08-2011, 19:25
I've had a go at this.
I've been listening to high res files (24 bit, 96 kHz) via wireless streaming. The Touch is connected to my Rega DAC via a Mark Grant G1000HD coaxial cable.
Very early impressions are that more information is audible in the 8-10kHz region with the S/PDIF value at 59, compared to the unmodified settings.
This effect reduced as I lowered the value towards 45.
What do these figures actually relate to? Are their minimum and maximum values?
Looks interesting Gaz, a good improvement?
yup,
to me theres an even more obvious change in the sound than Soundchecks mods.
Its an improvement for sure.
Ali Tait
08-08-2011, 23:33
I take it these only work if you are using a pc to run SC?
dionisio
08-08-2011, 23:58
To be honest, I wasn't expecting these to make any difference but ... I applied the mods while a song was playing, the device rebooted and started the song again and could immediately detect the extra treble detail.
PS. As the mods are applied to the Squeezebox Touch itself, it doesn't matter what computer is being used to run the Squeezecenter software.
Hi all,
Thanks for trying my SB Touch mods.
FYI I update the site from time to time. I included some information about "Tuning" the mod to suit your system.
Enjoy!
Hi Dynobot.
The mods do make an improvement and spending some time tweaking the SPDIF value from the original 59 did make a difference in my system.
Good work sir. :cool:
magiccarpetride
10-08-2011, 17:15
Hi all,
Thanks for trying my SB Touch mods.
FYI I update the site from time to time. I included some information about "Tuning" the mod to suit your system.
Enjoy!
Wow, lots of excitement about your mods. Since I'm using Linux, can you help this poor soul do your mods without having the Windows utility? Can I apply your mods from the command line (same as I've applied Soundcheck's mods)?
Wow, lots of excitement about your mods. Since I'm using Linux, can you help this poor soul do your mods without having the Windows utility? Can I apply your mods from the command line (same as I've applied Soundcheck's mods)?
.. and a similar request (please) for all the Mac owners out there!
BW
RTJ
Gazjam,
Great, thanks and enjoy!
BTW, what value did you settle on for spdif??
Wow, lots of excitement about your mods. Since I'm using Linux, can you help this poor soul do your mods without having the Windows utility? Can I apply your mods from the command line (same as I've applied Soundcheck's mods)?
Hi magic,
From Linux you can 'cd' to the rcS file and use your editing software [gedit or leafpad etc] if you can open that file you can just apply the changes to it. Otherwise yes you can apply the changes via command line ie [chrt -f -p....] you should still get a echo reply back as to the priority change.
.. and a similar request (please) for all the Mac owners out there!
BW
RTJ
Try this
http://www.rbrowser.com/
Once its open on your Mac just follow the same steps.
Try this
http://www.rbrowser.com/
Once its open on your Mac just follow the same steps.
Wow, thank you.
BW
Richard
Wow, lots of excitement about your mods. Since I'm using Linux, can you help this poor soul do your mods without having the Windows utility? Can I apply your mods from the command line (same as I've applied Soundcheck's mods)?
Just in case you are not able to open window with a text editor like gedit etc. and are forced to use command line only here is a site with a pretty easy to follow guide for vi editing. This way you can 'cd' to the rcS file and open it in the terminal window, edit the file and save it.
http://www.basicconfig.com/linux/vi
magiccarpetride
11-08-2011, 18:36
Just in case you are not able to open window with a text editor like gedit etc. and are forced to use command line only here is a site with a pretty easy to follow guide for vi editing. This way you can 'cd' to the rcS file and open it in the terminal window, edit the file and save it.
http://www.basicconfig.com/linux/vi
Awesome. Actually, I'm using a Mac, but because I'm ssh-ing into the Touch from the Terminal, I feel like I'm descending into the command line Linux (or is it Unix?) Would your Linux instructions apply for the Mac flavor of *nix?
Also, I've learned from another thread discussing your mods (a different forum) that one member managed to shoot himself in the foot by applying your changes, after which he inadvertently added a blank line at the end of the file, thus causing the Touch to hang (it can happen if one is not familiar with the file editor). I wanna make sure I don't end up doing the same (it's a pain in the ass to do the factory reset and then redo all the Soundcheck's mods, if you know what I'm saying), so are there any tips you could kindly offer for making sure we don't inadvertently fabricate an extra blank line at the end of the file before saving it?
Thanks so much, I can't wait to get home and try this!
Hi Ian (Dynobot) - thanks very much indeed for joining us, and contributing to the thread - however could you kindly pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself? This is one of the requirements of our community, as it makes for a more friendly forum. Thanks. :)
Awesome. Actually, I'm using a Mac, but because I'm ssh-ing into the Touch from the Terminal, I feel like I'm descending into the command line Linux (or is it Unix?) Would your Linux instructions apply for the Mac flavor of *nix?
Also, I've learned from another thread discussing your mods (a different forum) that one member managed to shoot himself in the foot by applying your changes, after which he inadvertently added a blank line at the end of the file, thus causing the Touch to hang (it can happen if one is not familiar with the file editor). I wanna make sure I don't end up doing the same (it's a pain in the ass to do the factory reset and then redo all the Soundcheck's mods, if you know what I'm saying), so are there any tips you could kindly offer for making sure we don't inadvertently fabricate an extra blank line at the end of the file before saving it?
Thanks so much, I can't wait to get home and try this!
Hi magic,
The best way to insure you do not have extra spaces is to go to the end of the file and backspace until you get to the last character. same goes for each line, backspace to get rid of spaces.
Also, I've learned from another thread discussing your mods (a different forum)...
I also read on that other forum, after someone posted to Soundcheck about him trying these mods and/or putting them in his next release of mods that Soundcheck actually wants credit for these mods. Apparently he says he thought of them in 2007 but I guess he forgot about them until now since he did not use them any of his Squeezebox mods until now....oh well.
At any rate, I will keep them on my site and help anyone who wants to use them.
Both you guys are doing a great job...keep it up!
Maybe great minds think alike? :)
Heres a thing to consider...
When I upgraded the firmware on my Touch to the latest "nightly" build (7.6.1 - r32869) the "optimum" SPDIF value changed? :scratch:
I was sitting at 51 as anything higher sounded a bit "etched" and this value gave the best balance between clarity and musical flow.
*seriously, Im not making this stuff up! :mental:
Upgraded the firmware, factory reset, Soundcheck mods then yours..and the sound wasn't as clear as before.
I had found that the higher the SPDIF value the "clearer" the top end seemed to be..so I set it to the original recommended value of 59.
Sound is better that it was, more of what made it better than without the mods.
Some voodoo going on here I think. :eyebrows:
Software like Amarra etc (insert good/bad comment here..) seems to rely on similar tweaks to system processes, CPU priority etc, so I for one reckon theres definately a good thing going here.
I neither own nor have even heard a Touch, but it's interesting to see someone apply the ideas of tuning thread and interrupt priorities in a real-time Linux environment to this popular kit.
While not directly applicable to the Touch, here's one web ref. that explains a few concents and shows how IRQ priorities can be juggled/tuned for low-latency audio.
http://subversion.ffado.org/wiki/IrqPriorities
For a more general overview of real-time Linux in the audio context there is:
http://apps.linuxaudio.org/wiki/real_time_info
And there's always the ALSA low-latency how-to:
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Low_latency_howto
Unfortunately like a lot of ALSA documentation the last ref is not very up to date.
Hi all,
Thanks for trying my SB Touch mods.
FYI I update the site from time to time. I included some information about "Tuning" the mod to suit your system.
Enjoy!
Hi Ed, are you aware of any similar mods for the SB receiver or SB3?
:cool:
Both you guys are doing a great job...keep it up!
Maybe great minds think alike? :)
Heres a thing to consider...
When I upgraded the firmware on my Touch to the latest "nightly" build (7.6.1 - r32869) the "optimum" SPDIF value changed? :scratch:
I was sitting at 51 as anything higher sounded a bit "etched" and this value gave the best balance between clarity and musical flow.
*seriously, Im not making this stuff up! :mental:
Upgraded the firmware, factory reset, Soundcheck mods then yours..and the sound wasn't as clear as before.
I had found that the higher the SPDIF value the "clearer" the top end seemed to be..so I set it to the original recommended value of 59.
Sound is better that it was, more of what made it better than without the mods.
Some voodoo going on here I think. :eyebrows:
Software like Amarra etc (insert good/bad comment here..) seems to rely on similar tweaks to system processes, CPU priority etc, so I for one reckon theres definately a good thing going here.
Maybe not voodoo, I started using the mods with the latest release, which is why I used 59.
BTW, the owner of these mods is FFADO like I referenced in my site. They came up with them years ago and actually published this information which I gave credit too on my site.
http://subversion.ffado.org/wiki/IrqPriorities
I know Soundcheck from many years ago on Audioasylum. It was his pride speaking...
If you notice on my site I reference other sources too like Texas Instruments in ref to the usb tweaks I use ie very short cables etc.
I neither own nor have even heard a Touch, but it's interesting to see someone apply the ideas of tuning thread and interrupt priorities in a real-time Linux environment to this popular kit.
While not directly applicable to the Touch, here's one web ref. that explains a few concents and shows how IRQ priorities can be juggled/tuned for low-latency audio.
http://subversion.ffado.org/wiki/IrqPriorities
For a more general overview of real-time Linux in the audio context there is:
http://apps.linuxaudio.org/wiki/real_time_info
And there's always the ALSA low-latency how-to:
http://www.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Low_latency_howto
Unfortunately like a lot of ALSA documentation the last ref is not very up to date.
Yes Krisbee those are the true sources of information concerning real time linux and alsa. I made references to the very sources on my site.
Thanks for posting that
Hi Ed, are you aware of any similar mods for the SB receiver or SB3?
:cool:
No only products that use Linux
Dynobot,
Now I've had a chance to read more of the information on your excellent website I'd say it was well worth a visit for anyone interested in computer audio.
One thing that really struck me was how you had discovered by accident that cutting the 5volt power connection on a USB cable gave such good results that you sold both your ADuM isolator and AUDIO-GD USB to Coax converter. It's an idea that SOTM incoporated into their very expensive tX-USB: Low noise USB audio PCI card with switchable BUS power. Of course this may not work on a USB DAC that needs the 5volt connection, but must be worth a try on a cheap USB cable.
To stray off topic a little further, in your comparison of Windows v. Mac etc. you express a perference for the Squeezebox Touch, but only if the Squeezebox server software riuns on a separate machine. But unless I missed it you don't say which DAC etc you were listening to, or perhps this choice was independent of the rest of your audio chain..
Although Im a dedicated Linux user I still have not built a separate "audio computer", yet I lean towards an Atom powered device or using an embedded sytesm like one of the ALIX m/boards combined with VoaygeMPD linux. Talking of which have you ever seen this website?
http://kubotayo.web.fc2.com/voyagempd.html
It includes some patches for MPD itself to make further use of real time capabilities. I've made no use of these myslef yet so can't say if they are effective. But they are accompanied by a detailed description.
One last question, I wonder if you had ever tried the switch from ALSA to OSS4? Sadly, my DAC's USB connection does not function although recognised in OSS4 , but my Envy24HT card works OK.
I think this is great despite not being a Touch user.
(I am trying/have tried similar with MPD with the assistance of my more Linux knowledgeable friend)
I’ve believed for some time now that experimentation in both hardware and software setup can make a considerable difference to file based audio.
There have been two main problems imo with regard to this kind of system optimization for audio
a) overcoming the “bits are bits” mindset prevalent in computer based audio reproduction
b) the majority of audio enthusiasts just don’t have the computer/software skills to experiment with such modifications.
It’s exciting to read that people are actually hearing a difference in how an OS is set up.
It’s interesting that the more traditional audio enthusiasts are quite happy to report that changing this capacitor or that valve/transistor makes an audible difference but, often still insists that computers were designed to multitask and prefer to concentrate on everything after the computer rather than the source itself.
Like Chris, I found your preference for tx USB style powering solution interesting and something I’m considering for my server build as mentioned in my Music Server thread.
It is rather expensive atm though.
I’ve had good results with the ADUM chip connected to a Linear power supply but not all USB Dacs seem happy with this arrangement.
As mentioned somewhere, some IRQ lines are on the MOB and I wondered if you had experimented with the removal of these lines? Regrettably I’ve scrapped a few boards now attempting to do just this.
There are software solutions available for thread prioritisation and core mapping. Have you tried any?
Imo it’s great that people such as yourself are attempting to bridge the chasm that exists between the computer/coding/scripting and audiophile sides of quality audio reproduction.
magiccarpetride
12-08-2011, 16:50
Hi magic,
The best way to insure you do not have extra spaces is to go to the end of the file and backspace until you get to the last character. same goes for each line, backspace to get rid of spaces.
Thanks so much for your selfless help, Dyno. I've applied your mods last night, and wow, wow, wow! And WOW!
What the hell is going on in there? How is it possible that commenting out two lines of code and adding 4 lines of code can result in such staggering improvement? I confess I have not the foggiest what's going on, but man it works. Does it ever work!
I also have to confess that I was extremely skeptical that this mod could make even the slightest difference. After going through the flurry of mods and tweaks (2011 is the tweak year for me), I was convinced that I've reached the point of diminishing returns. The only way I could see things sounding any better was if I were to do some serious upgrades to my electrical wiring, which would require a five figure investment on my part.
Then along came your four lines of code, and wham, bam, a la chazam!
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Dynobot,
....
But unless I missed it you don't say which DAC etc you were listening to, or perhps this choice was independent of the rest of your audio chain..
Although Im a dedicated Linux user I still have not built a separate "audio computer", yet I lean towards an Atom powered device or using an embedded sytesm like one of the ALIX m/boards combined with VoaygeMPD linux. Talking of which have you ever seen this website?
http://kubotayo.web.fc2.com/voyagempd.html
It includes some patches for MPD itself to make further use of real time capabilities. I've made no use of these myslef yet so can't say if they are effective. But they are accompanied by a detailed description.
One last question, I wonder if you had ever tried the switch from ALSA to OSS4? Sadly, my DAC's USB connection does not function although recognised in OSS4 , but my Envy24HT card works OK.
Hi Krisbee,
Thank you for the comment about my web site...:)
About the Dac[s] I used for the comparison between operating systems. Well the comparison went on over a very long period of time. My first computer audio machine was a Windows XP machine which I reduced down to the bare-bones and ran Foobar with Otachans plugins. I compared Winamp and Foobar a lot back then and starting getting interested in Linux audio. At that time my Dac was Creative Soundblaster card which soon got replaced by a Lavry DA10 Dac. The rest of my system consisted of an Aragon 8008BB amp and an Anthem Pre2L preamp with my Dynaudio speakers. I probably spent a good year trying everything I could to make both Linux and Windows sound as best as possible. Since then I have gone through a lot of Dacs if you see my web site. With each new Dac I go back and compare so I would say the Dac[s] I used for my final write up was every Dac I have owned and generally speaking I ended up with the results I posted about.
Yes I have read the web site you mentioned, its a very very good wed site. BTW, those paths are pretty much the same thing Soundcheck is doing with his TT2.0 Squeezebox mod.
No I have never tried OSS4 but I might give it a shot, thanks for telling me about it. Up until now I was strictly ALSA.
it looks too technical for me, is there are daftee's version of how to make the alterations?
it looks too technical for me, is there are daftee's version of how to make the alterations?
I have a SB touch connected to a dacmagic and my nas in another room connected to my pc and router with ethernet cables
i put my sb ip address in and it says network connection refused, help please
camtwister
16-08-2011, 20:00
Hi David,
To follow these soft modification instructions, you first need to establish secure communication between your Touch and your other networked devices. This is achieved by using a SSH (secure shell) protocol. Until you tell it otherwise, your Touch will refuse to allow a third party to access its instruction set.
Go to the Settings menu on your Squeezebox Touch.
Go to Advanced.
Go to Remote Login.
Select Enable SSH.
You can now use the WinSCP client on your computer to edit the Touch firmware. Good luck!
network error...connection time out is all I get...gggrrhhhhhh
I did the settings on the SB
camtwister
18-08-2011, 10:21
OK - next two things to check.
- When you enable SSH on your SB, does the IP address given to you by the Touch on screen, match the IP address entered into WinSCP? Check that you are using the root username, 1234 password and port 22.
Reboot your SB before proceeding.
- Go to the menu tree on the left-hand-side of the WinSCP window.
Select Connection.
In the Timeout box, increase the Server response timeout to 120 seconds from 15 seconds.
Give that a go...
electric beach
18-08-2011, 12:03
Just want to endorse Gazjam's enthusiasm for this mod and to thank you, Ed, for making the process available and for the simple instructions to apply it.
The Sbooster makes a dramatic difference but much like the old X10D buffer, it seems to give with one hand and take with the other, so you have a different presentation that is not necessarily "better" overall but could still be preferred, depending on the rest of your system and personal flavour you prefer.
This mod is fascinating in that you can adjust the settings to match your system, so I can see a lot more people being happy with the result. Being able to make the changes while listening is quite enlightening in terms of judging the effects and takes away the normal A/B comparison issues.
I only applied it last night and I think you need to live with a given setting for a while to get an average, because it's easy to fine tune one album/ production then change to another and start tweaking again :doh:
And the effect? Well, primarily think of it as a treble control or a sharpening tool in a photo manipulation program. It is possible to increase detail and leading edge definition to excess - beyond a balance with other frequencies or other considerations. Personally the greatest gain for me is the reduction in the graininess which the standard touch suffers from. The presentation is more refined and the soundstage cleaner (lower background noise?). I have some initial reservations about the effect on the bass but I need more time on this one. The increased inner detail highlights a musicians technique, the diction of a vocalist (Paulo Nutini sounded very Scottish and Melody Gardot had sticky lipgloss :lol:) but I'm thinking this is at the expense of an holistic rightness; with Luis Salinas, before my attention seemed drawn to the tone of his solo acoustic guitar, the reverberation of the wooden body, the rattle of the obviously metal strings and the creaking of his leather guitar strap - all elements that were creating a quite solid illusion of a real person and a real instrument. Now I seem focused on the finger slides, the plectrum technique, the attack and decay of each note.
Now if I can just find that magic number that balances the two.....
Unreservedly recommended as worth the little time and effort to experiment.
Hi Folks,
Hope no one minds m hanging this on the back of this thread but has any one any knowldge or experience of this player: -
http://www.signalyst.com/consumer.html
To a numptie like me it seems to have things going for it but what do I know?
Any response appreciated.
Dave.
These are nice mods Ed ! :eyebrows:
I guess an executable, with some "recommended" and a "revert to the factory" values could be also possible ? ;)
Oh, and btw, how would these mods work if you disable neither WLAN nor samba ?
Just want to endorse Gazjam's enthusiasm for this mod and to thank you, Ed, for making the process available and for the simple instructions to apply it.
The Sbooster makes a dramatic difference but much like the old X10D buffer, it seems to give with one hand and take with the other, so you have a different presentation that is not necessarily "better" overall but could still be preferred, depending on the rest of your system and personal flavour you prefer.
This mod is fascinating in that you can adjust the settings to match your system, so I can see a lot more people being happy with the result. Being able to make the changes while listening is quite enlightening in terms of judging the effects and takes away the normal A/B comparison issues.
I only applied it last night and I think you need to live with a given setting for a while to get an average, because it's easy to fine tune one album/ production then change to another and start tweaking again :doh:
And the effect? Well, primarily think of it as a treble control or a sharpening tool in a photo manipulation program. It is possible to increase detail and leading edge definition to excess - beyond a balance with other frequencies or other considerations. Personally the greatest gain for me is the reduction in the graininess which the standard touch suffers from. The presentation is more refined and the soundstage cleaner (lower background noise?). I have some initial reservations about the effect on the bass but I need more time on this one. The increased inner detail highlights a musicians technique, the diction of a vocalist (Paulo Nutini sounded very Scottish and Melody Gardot had sticky lipgloss :lol:) but I'm thinking this is at the expense of an holistic rightness; with Luis Salinas, before my attention seemed drawn to the tone of his solo acoustic guitar, the reverberation of the wooden body, the rattle of the obviously metal strings and the creaking of his leather guitar strap - all elements that were creating a quite solid illusion of a real person and a real instrument. Now I seem focused on the finger slides, the plectrum technique, the attack and decay of each note.
Now if I can just find that magic number that balances the two.....
Unreservedly recommended as worth the little time and effort to experiment.
that "magic balance" you speak about seems to have been worked out by John Swenson over on the squeezebox forums - at least with his system/ears.
He's took the mods one step further and tweaked additional system processes as well as SPDIF.
When john suggests an impovement, I make a point to check it.
Have a play with his settings, see what you think?
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89359&page=9
I feel these mods are system dependant and subject to the usual "one mans meat.." caveat, but the mods DO work.
Been on my hols, not home till Monday, will be having a go with them myself.
G.
magiccarpetride
22-08-2011, 16:51
that "magic balance" you speak about seems to have been worked out by John Swenson over on the squeezebox forums - at least with his system/ears.
He's took the mods one step further and tweaked additional system processes as well as SPDIF.
When john suggests an impovement, I make a point to check it.
Have a play with his settings, see what you think?
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89359&page=9
I feel these mods are system dependant and subject to the usual "one mans meat.." caveat, but the mods DO work.
Been on my hols, not home till Monday, will be having a go with them myself.
G.
I must be going deaf, because I played with spdif values (as well as with jive_alsa values) yesterday, and I could not, for the life of me, detect much (if any) difference. Regardless of whether I set it to 59, or to 41, or to any other value in between, everything continued to sound gorgeous. There were no detectable, audible differences.
Am I going bonkers? Just for a lark, I reverted everything back to the way it was before I've applied dynaudio's mods, and sure enough, that extra high-end gorgeousness in sound was gone. Apply the mods again, and I'm back in business:) So while I'm capable of hearing the benefits of dynaudio's mods, I'm still a dullard when it comes to fine tuning these mods.
Any suggestions? What am I missing here?
Alex, your systems maybe shit? ;)
The main thing is to get Jive_Alsa to a higher priority than the SPDIF process, which John Swenson suggested as a new twist on the mods.
Previously, the tweaked SPDIF value as it approached the initially recommended 59 became quite "etched" in a lot of folks systems.
John Swensons suggestion of raising Jive_Alsa process to 59 keeps the increased clarity from before, but without the edginess the higher up you went.
In my own system (and ears!) the sweet spot is spdif at 48.
Its system dependant though, so try diffrent values as you are doing.
The audible difference in values between the low 40's (40 is the default=no higher priority) and the high 50's is quite obvious in my system, and its my ears and tastes (I guess) that picks the best value for me.
As I said before, these mods work and the changes can be heard, even without a pair of Maggie's like yours Alex! :)
Anyways, I'm off to swap out some whistling Murata's from my Dac...wish me luck!
Alex, your systems maybe shit? ;)
:lolsign:
magiccarpetride
22-08-2011, 20:29
Alex, your systems maybe shit? ;)
Sadly, I'm coming to the same conclusion. There are so many people reporting very audible differences, and yet my shitty system cannot reveal any. Oh well, time to get out of this shitty hobby anyway... Fucking rat race! Perhaps my money would be better spent on the hungry mouths in Somalia?
Sadly, I'm coming to the same conclusion. There are so many people reporting very audible differences, and yet my shitty system cannot reveal any. Oh well, time to get out of this shitty hobby anyway... Fucking rat race! Perhaps my money would be better spent on the hungry mouths in Somalia?
Well, the changes are not THAT big, and without any possibility to swap between the two configurations, you have only the long-time hearing memory to help you...
Perhaps your system is not guilty, after all. ;)
Ali Tait
22-08-2011, 20:51
What's your dac? Assuming you run your Touch through one.
magiccarpetride
22-08-2011, 21:01
Well, the changes are not THAT big, and without any possibility to swap between the two configurations, you have only the long-time hearing memory to help you...
Perhaps your system is not guilty, after all. ;)
No, the thing is that I'm sitting in front of my stereo and changing the spdif values in REAL TIME, on the spot! I have my laptop resting on me lap, I'm logged into my Touch via ssh, and I'm playing with the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command. I'm basically changing the next to the last value, say from 40 all the way up to 59. Every time I change it and press Return key, the change takes effect and the FIFO priorities on the Touch change. The wisdom of the crowds insists that as you go higher, the sound should become more etched, more 'trebly', and vice versa. By going down close to 40, the sound should become softer, rounder, with warmer bass.
But the thing is, no matter what values I plug in, it all sounds the same to me. So if I can't hear any differences immediately, what are the odds I'll be hearing them eventually?
I think I may be too old for this shit anyway...
magiccarpetride
22-08-2011, 21:03
What's your dac? Assuming you run your Touch through one.
How would spdif changes affect the sound if one is not using the spdif outs?
Stratmangler
22-08-2011, 21:05
No, the thing is that I'm sitting in front of my stereo and changing the spdif values in REAL TIME, on the spot! I have my laptop resting on me lap, I'm logged into my Touch via ssh, and I'm playing with the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command. I'm basically changing the next to the last value, say from 40 all the way up to 59. Every time I change it and press Return key, the change takes effect and the FIFO priorities on the Touch change. The wisdom of the crowds insists that as you go higher, the sound should become more etched, more 'trebly', and vice versa. By going down close to 40, the sound should become softer, rounder, with warmer bass.
But the thing is, no matter what values I plug in, it all sounds the same to me. So if I can't hear any differences immediately, what are the odds I'll be hearing them eventually?
I think I may be too old for this shit anyway...
The Maggies are known to be a bit hot in the HF response to start with - maybe they can't be induced to give any more ;)
No, the thing is that I'm sitting in front of my stereo and changing the spdif values in REAL TIME, on the spot! I have my laptop resting on me lap, I'm logged into my Touch via ssh, and I'm playing with the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command. I'm basically changing the next to the last value, say from 40 all the way up to 59. Every time I change it and press Return key, the change takes effect and the FIFO priorities on the Touch change. The wisdom of the crowds insists that as you go higher, the sound should become more etched, more 'trebly', and vice versa. By going down close to 40, the sound should become softer, rounder, with warmer bass.
But the thing is, no matter what values I plug in, it all sounds the same to me. So if I can't hear any differences immediately, what are the odds I'll be hearing them eventually?
I think I may be too old for this shit anyway...
Are you sure a thread priority change takes place immediately ? :scratch:
magiccarpetride
22-08-2011, 21:10
Are you sure a thread priority change takes place immediately ? :scratch:
Pretty sure, as I get immediate feedback in the console informing me that the FIFO priorities have now shifted. And a lot of other users confirm that this is the way to effect the changes in real time, so that you can immediately notice the change in the sound quality. That's how people are now fine tuning their systems -- on the fly. The darndnest thing is that I can't hear any difference.
And yet, I can hear huge differences when adding crystals or applying teflon tape to my AC plugs. What a stupid hobby!
Perhaps you should let someone else type the changes, so that you can notice them ? :)
Bah, revert to the factory settings, then come back another day... ;)
magiccarpetride
22-08-2011, 21:15
The Maggies are known to be a bit hot in the HF response to start with - maybe they can't be induced to give any more ;)
Quite the reverse, my Maggies (I have an old school pair, the big ones), are more on a darker, more liquid side. I'd love to be able to solicit sharper high frequency performance from them.
But regardless, this tweak is supposed to give us the whole gamut. People compare it to the sharpening/softening tool in Adobe Photoshop. You should be able to go all the way up to the very etched sound, and then bring it down all the way to very soft, bassy, almost muddled sound.
Nothing resembling that is happening as I keep dialling up/dialling down these spdif values.
Alex,
dont give up yet!
you need to reboot the Touch every time you make a change so that it loads up the new values AS it boots up.
Not "instant" changes...but pretty close. :)
Its not a night and day difference by any means, but I found they were more noticable than Soundcheck's mods...and a very worthwhile improvement.
Can't remember if your on a Mac or not, but in WinSPC in the Terminal window you just type "reboot" after saving new SPDIF values to your rcS file.
Linux is Linux..maybe similar commands on the Mac?
you need to reboot the Touch every time you make a change so that it loads up the new values AS it boots up.
Not "instant" changes...but pretty close. :)
Ah... see Alex ? You were not deaf after all and don't throw away your system...
... yet :lol:
Ali Tait
22-08-2011, 22:52
How would spdif changes affect the sound if one is not using the spdif outs?
I wouldn't know as I've not tried the mods and don't know what they entail.I won't bother asking in future..
The Grand Wazoo
22-08-2011, 23:00
Hey Alex,
Here's a thought for you. Maybe you're the victim of someone getting carried away in their over-enthusiasm of description of the effects of changes to their system?
magiccarpetride
23-08-2011, 00:04
Hey Alex,
Here's a thought for you. Maybe you're the victim of someone getting carried away in their over-enthusiasm of description of the effects of changes to their system?
Hmmm, you know, I might consider that, but Gaz is in on this one, and I have pretty good track record with his impressions aligning with mine. This is the first time ever that him and I don't hear ear-to-ear, and that confuses the hell out of me:scratch:
Hmmm, you know, I might consider that, but Gaz is in on this one, and I have pretty good track record with his impressions aligning with mine. This is the first time ever that him and I don't hear ear-to-ear, and that confuses the hell out of me:scratch:
Alex,
If you can hear Soundcheck's mods you can hear these - I suspect your not doing something right! :)
Your Caiman (like mine) is "good enough" and you have better speakers than I've got...
So...
lemme have a think...
You say your sitting at the laptop applying different values using the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command at the console, changing values as you go and aren't hearing anything?
Couple of things to check/think about:
You need to reboot the Touch for each change in value to take effect, sounds like maybe your not doing that?
Also,
The "address values" in the commands "chrt -f -p..." for Real time clock and SPDIF can vary dependant on which firmware your Touch is running.
The "address" (367) of the SPDIF value given in Dynobot's webpage example can change...so if your just typing in "chrt -f -p 51 367" command and changing 51 to whatever...you using might not be doing anything - even if you WERE rebooting after every change ;)
Dynobot does suggest in the "small print" that you check these values in YOUR system first and change the address values (i.e 367) to what matches your system.
You did do that, right? ;) :ner:
Keep the faith brother, these mods DO work.
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
How would spdif changes affect the sound if one is not using the spdif outs?
I wouldn't know as I've not tried the mods and don't know what they entail.I won't bother asking in future..
Alex,
Maybe some Dacs are less able to show these mods as others for whatever reason so I'm sure thats why Ali was asking and trying to help you out.
Also,
You said you were typing the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command to tweak your SPDIF value, so someone asking about your Dac is a fair question I'd have thought?
Just sayin.... :)
magiccarpetride
23-08-2011, 15:49
I wouldn't know as I've not tried the mods and don't know what they entail.I won't bother asking in future..
I didn't mean to brush you off... I was asking in all earnestness. It looks like many of these things appear related, once you dive deeper into the underlying Linux and Alsa in the Touch. So even if one is not using spdif, it is conceivable that the changes in the spdif thread priority might affect other parameters. I don't know, that's why I was asking. But please do not think that I was being a prick there;)
magiccarpetride
23-08-2011, 15:52
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
How would spdif changes affect the sound if one is not using the spdif outs?
I wouldn't know as I've not tried the mods and don't know what they entail.I won't bother asking in future..
Alex,
Maybe some Dacs are less able to show these mods as others for whatever reason so I'm sure thats why Ali was asking and trying to help you out.
Also,
You said you were typing the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command to tweak your SPDIF value, so someone asking about your Dac is a fair question I'd have thought?
Just sayin.... :)
Absolutely. It was a bit of a miscommunication on my part; I didn't mean to dismiss any possibilities, that's why I asked the question. It is conceivable that even if someone is not using spdif, the changes to its priority could influence other parameters. What I was asking is -- how?
I know next to nothing about digital sound processing, and am just now discovering the wonderful brave world of digital audio, and what makes it tick in a system such as Linux. Naturally, I will continue with many, many dumb questions...
magiccarpetride
23-08-2011, 17:52
Alex,
If you can hear Soundcheck's mods you can hear these - I suspect your not doing something right! :)
Your Caiman (like mine) is "good enough" and you have better speakers than I've got...
So...
lemme have a think...
You say your sitting at the laptop applying different values using the "chrt -f -p 51 367" command at the console, changing values as you go and aren't hearing anything?
Couple of things to check/think about:
You need to reboot the Touch for each change in value to take effect, sounds like maybe your not doing that?
Also,
The "address values" in the commands "chrt -f -p..." for Real time clock and SPDIF can vary dependant on which firmware your Touch is running.
The "address" (367) of the SPDIF value given in Dynobot's webpage example can change...so if your just typing in "chrt -f -p 51 367" command and changing 51 to whatever...you using might not be doing anything - even if you WERE rebooting after every change ;)
Dynobot does suggest in the "small print" that you check these values in YOUR system first and change the address values (i.e 367) to what matches your system.
You did do that, right? ;) :ner:
Keep the faith brother, these mods DO work.
How would I know which value in my system matches the 367 value?
I so want this to work for me!
How would I know which value in my system matches the 367 value?
I so want this to work for me!
Hey Alex :)
When you think that with these mods, the SPDIF value is only one of 5 that make it work, there is (as you say) a lot of stuff going on - NOT just the digital out.
As an experiment I took my Caiman out of circuit and went back to analogue out using the Touch's internal Dac.
With the mods there are still improvements, hard to say what though as its a completely different Dac - BUT - compared to the non-modded sound, the mods bring good improvements.
You asked about the 367 value for SPDIF?
To check yours - and therefor the correct value for your SPDIF, type this in a Terminal window whilst SSH'd into your Touch:
ps -eLo pid,cls,rtprio,pri,nice,cmd
This will list all the startup processes, what their "address" value is and also what their priority value is.
Your interested in the first and fourth column as well as the "description" column under the heading CMD.
Your looking for the values for SPDIF and Realtime clock.
(Under the CMD heading they are [IRQ-47] and [IRQ-25]
Two columns to the left (under "PRI") is the value that you change.
(My IRQ-47(SPDIF)=471* and IRQ-25(RtC)=414*
THESE are the values I have put in my rcS file as they exactly match my config, NOT the ones on Dynobot's website as stated.
So its:
1) check your values using ps -eLo pid,cls,rtprio,pri,nice,cmd
2) Take note of numbers under "PID" heading for [IRQ-47] and [IRQ-25]
3) Edit your rcS file, save and type "reboot" in a terminal window to activate the new values.
I know you weren't changing your rcS file but were doing it "on the fly", but if your sitting with the laptop in front of your system you might as well do it this way IMHO.
Have a go, let us know how you get on. :)
magiccarpetride
23-08-2011, 19:34
Hey Alex :)
When you think that with these mods, the SPDIF value is only one of 5 that make it work, there is (as you say) a lot of stuff going on - NOT just the digital out.
As an experiment I took my Caiman out of circuit and went back to analogue out using the Touch's internal Dac.
With the mods there are still improvements, hard to say what though as its a completely different Dac - BUT - compared to the non-modded sound, the mods bring good improvements.
You asked about the 367 value for SPDIF?
To check yours - and therefor the correct value for your SPDIF, type this in a Terminal window whilst SSH'd into your Touch:
ps -eLo pid,cls,rtprio,pri,nice,cmd
This will list all the startup processes, what their "address" value is and also what their priority value is.
Your interested in the first and fourth column as well as the "description" column under the heading CMD.
Your looking for the values for SPDIF and Realtime clock.
(Under the CMD heading they are [IRQ-47] and [IRQ-25]
Two columns to the left (under "PRI") is the value that you change.
(My IRQ-47(SPDIF)=471* and IRQ-25(RtC)=414*
THESE are the values I have put in my rcS file as they exactly match my config, NOT the ones on Dynobot's website as stated.
So its:
1) check your values using ps -eLo pid,cls,rtprio,pri,nice,cmd
2) Take note of numbers under "PID" heading for [IRQ-47] and [IRQ-25]
3) Edit your rcS file, save and type "reboot" in a terminal window to activate the new values.
I know you weren't changing your rcS file but were doing it "on the fly", but if your sitting with the laptop in front of your system you might as well do it this way IMHO.
Have a go, let us know how you get on. :)
Brilliant. Thanks so much, bro!
camtwister
24-08-2011, 21:30
I've varied SPDIF and Real-Time Clock values using the suggested RCS file alterations and I've heard sonic differences, particularly at the top-end when changing the SPDIF values by more than three integers. However, the process IDs for both jive_alsa processes change each time I boot up my Touch. Is there a line of code that I can add to the RCS file, that will automatically detect and set the value to 55 for example, rather than the default of 35 and 45, so that I don't have to manually change them in a terminal window at the beginning of each listening session?
Hi Guys,
I'd be interested in anybody else's opinion on this. Late last night I switched on my Logitech Touch, only to be advised that a new version of the software was available. I downloaded and installed it and then began to listen through my AKG IEDs - I was immediately struck by how much better the sound seemed to be from how I last remembered it from perhaps a week or so ago.
I would describe the sound as being much more 3D, greater depth of the sound stage, if that is possible with IEDs?
Am I deluding myself or has anyone else noticed any improvement?
I am aware that there are 3rd parties coming up with software mods to improve the sound and I wondered perhaps whether Logitech had taken notice of these mods and developed their own version as an update - any thoughts?
Cheers,
Dave.
Hiya Dave,
good to see you back. :)
Ive found that firmware changes CAN affect the sound and is usually an improvement.
Not all of the changes make any difference though?
My take is that every now and again the Logitech engineers make some change that makes the Touch work more efficiently or something, which messing about with CPU priorities etc in the mods have shown can improve the sound.
I don't rely on it though, as not all firmware changes make any difference. Theres firmware upgrades frequently if your running 7.6.1 software, but I ignore them mostly and like to update every couple of weeks if theres anything new.
Its possible that the software mods are being looked at by Logitech engineers I suppose...but I wouldn't think they trawl the forums like we do! :)
Have you tried themods yet Dave?
Hello everyone, I just wanted to share and UPDATE to my modifications.
I added one more file to be modified, see 2nd step. It entails adding two lines to the asound.conf file.
Also
**Note: It is not recommended that you use these mods in conjunction with any other software modifications.**
I also recommend that you install the latest firmware on the Touch via Firmware update.
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