Which is the best cartridge?

[sprint]

I am looking to upgrade my turntable system to a Mitchell Orbe, SME IV or V arm (budget limits force me more towards a IV unless I can find a V at a good price) and A.N.T. Kora Ltd MC or MM phonestage.

I was originally thinking of going for the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge but now having doubts and would like some advice opinion with respect to the Benz Micro Glider or Grado Sonata 1 (what is the difference between the Statement or Reference series?) as alternatives?

Would the Ortofon be the best match for the above system or would one of the alternatives be a better match and provide a better sound?

Music types listened to are prog, rock, blues and male and female vocalists I do not listen to classical music.

The amp used is a MF Nu Vista integrated.

[griffo104]

As a fellow Orbe user (although only a Technoarm) don't rule out the Lyra carts (dorian and Delos in that price range). I know some on here aren't keen but if you like rock and that sort of music they are exceptional from my experience.

I also like the Glider a lot, very smooth yet detailed. Defo a cart you can listen to all day.

the ortofon are good but I find them a little soulless. Maybe that's just me, I have a lot friends who love them so it could be just me.

[DSJR]

The Orbe SME actually does some justice to Koetsu's, so my love of the basic Black model still stands (little to no snake-oil on this one)..

Lyra's can be a tad toppy if you're not careful, but the Benz and Shelter models seem well liked.

The one lengthy occasion I heard a ZYX R100 I was smitten. very clear, "fast" on percussion but "musical" with it, if you get what I mean - in the Decca-like sense of the word.

Which brings me back to the question - Why spend a fortune on a low output mc cartridge when a London Decca Jubilee will probably do it so much better??????

Just my cheeky thoughts :lol:

[The Grand Wazoo]

To echo Dave, I've used Koetsu Blacks on my Gyro since 1992 - never felt like I wanted anything else.

[Yiangos]

A word of caution Andy.Whatever you buy,make sure you can afford the retipping when the time comes and it will come eventually

[Neil McCauley]

I haven't heard EVERY cartridge of course so cannot with certainty answer the precise question. Moreover I like the sound of vintage cartridges. And additionally I hear the differences readily regarding what a change of arm does to the sonic characteristics of the cartridge which must of course must influence my observations.

And so given the above, these are the vintage MC cartridges which have consistently given me the greatest musical pleasure.


Van den Hul EMT/MC1
Brinkmann EMT/Ti
Dynavector 17-D2
Koestsu Black (original)
Supex SD900
Supex SD901

[Darren]

What do you love about the vintage carts Howard?

[Neil McCauley]

What do you love about the vintage carts Howard?

Now then, this is for me a VERY interesting question. Moreover I'd not, prior to your question even marginally thought about this. Off the top of my head, and I will expand on this at some point, there are two answers:

I use vintage gear in the main at home. Rowland preamp into Trio L07-M mono power amps. Pink T turntable. Various odd arms. Vandersteen passive speakers and Meridian M1 actives from 1976. Thus those vintage cartridges work 'right' with my choice of gear. By this i mean that they give me colossal musical satisfaction.
Also I have always had a love of ultra-fast / over-damped bass plus 'crisp' top-end and euphonic mid-band with unrealistically (absurdly) high dynamics and ....... outstanding detail retrieval even at low sound pressure levels. All of my stated choices, through my gear offer me this. I must explain that imaging (both depth of and stability of) play no part in my aspirations. If any of those cartridges do or don't offer imaging then I really cannot say 'cos I've never listen for that. By this I don't mean imaging is unimportant - rather that it's unimportant to me. It's the tonal characteristics that are my priority. I'm even content with a tiny bit of mis-tracking if the rest of the characteristics are fine.

Hope this helps

Thank you again.

Sincerely

Howard

PS: I LOVE the sound of vintage Decca cartridges, but not the hassle as I experienced it before (it seems) the dawn of time!



***********************************

[sprint]

A word of caution Andy.Whatever you buy,make sure you can afford the retipping when the time comes and it will come eventually

Thanks for your advice, Generally how may hours of use can you expect from a tip?

[sprint]

Thanks for all of your comments and advice so far.

Surprised that know one seems to be supporting the Ortofon which in its Kontrapunkt b format always seemed highly recommended and what about the Grado range or are MM's not to be in the picture for the proposed set-up?

[lewis]

I have always been led to believe that it is better to spend more money on the tonearm, and less on the cartridge. So instead of downgrading to an Sme iv with a dearer cartridge, have the Sme v you REALLY want, and go for a cheaper cartridge.:)

[Si74]

The Orbe SME actually does some justice to Koetsu's, so my love of the basic Black model still stands (little to no snake-oil on this one)..

Lyra's can be a tad toppy if you're not careful, but the Benz and Shelter models seem well liked.

The one lengthy occasion I heard a ZYX R100 I was smitten. very clear, "fast" on percussion but "musical" with it, if you get what I mean - in the Decca-like sense of the word.

Which brings me back to the question - Why spend a fortune on a low output mc cartridge when a London Decca Jubilee will probably do it so much better??????

Just my cheeky thoughts :lol:

Quoted as my experiences are similar. On my second Koetsu Black and don't feel the need to spend more but when I did, I bought a zyx Airy 11.
In a Stogi S it sung but in gimbals(zeta & stogi) it's hard to fault but difficult to love.
If you can pick up a nos older model Benz Glider, then imo, they take some beating on vfm and work well in everything, Aros/Ekos/SME .

Used to buy them by the half dozen for 200 quid each and if I'd any brains I would have just kept them & been sorted for ever more:scratch:

[Yiangos]

Andy,not 100% sure about this but expect 1 year with heavy use.Koetsus can go up to 2 with heavy use and with heavy use i meen listening to records every day for hours.

[sprint]

I have always been led to believe that it is better to spend more money on the tonearm, and less on the cartridge. So instead of downgrading to an Sme iv with a dearer cartridge, have the Sme v you REALLY want, and go for a cheaper cartridge.:)

I think you are right on that in as much that I may be better to go for the V and a cheaper cartridge, but that still leaves me somewhat not knowing which one to go for?

[sprint]

Quoted as my experiences are similar. On my second Koetsu Black and don't feel the need to spend more but when I did, I bought a zyx Airy 11.
In a Stogi S it sung but in gimbals(zeta & stogi) it's hard to fault but difficult to love.
If you can pick up a nos older model Benz Glider, then imo, they take some beating on vfm and work well in everything, Aros/Ekos/SME .

Used to buy them by the half dozen for 200 quid each and if I'd any brains I would have just kept them & been sorted for ever more:scratch:

Unfortunately the Black's are about £1800 now, so out of my price range at the moment as I am having to spend on a total upgrade in one go.

The reviews on the Glider tend to indicate that it is a bit clinical in its sound, though very detailed? Looking for a clear and detailed sound but with a bit of warmth?

What has been your experience?

[sprint]

Andy,not 100% sure about this but expect 1 year with heavy use.Koetsus can go up to 2 with heavy use and with heavy use i meen listening to records every day for hours.

Thanks for the reply, assuming 3 hrs a day then that should give something in the region of 1000 to 1500 hrs?

[DSJR]

You know, this makes the venerable Denon 103 a total bargain. I believe Big Moog, who occasionally posts here, has had 103's re-tipped by EsCo using their Paratrace tips. Since the basic generator seems good, despite the conical tip ;), a new body and specialist tip profile might just transform it into a proper giant killer for several hundred quid total outlay.

Anyone here done this?

[Vinyleyes]

Andy ... FYI I'm running a Lyra Argo on an SME 20Mk1 with SMEV arm .. through valves and I find the sound just a touch clinical for my liking .... I too am looking for something a little sweeter without losing detail ... .. :scratch: ...

[Si74]

Unfortunately the Black's are about £1800 now, so out of my price range at the moment as I am having to spend on a total upgrade in one go.

The reviews on the Glider tend to indicate that it is a bit clinical in its sound, though very detailed? Looking for a clear and detailed sound but with a bit of warmth?

What has been your experience?

oimo but I'd disagree with the clinical bit re the Glider.
Certainly a shade warmer sounding than any Lyras or Ortofons.
Using a Quicksilver tube stage tho I might add.

[Barry]

Thanks for your advice, Generally how may hours of use can you expect from a tip?

For a non grain-orientated diamond 1,000 - 2,000 hours, depending on stylus profile. Inspect the stylus for condition after 750 hours

Top quality stylii with more exotic profiles last somewhat less. Skilled operators working in LP pressing quality suites can reliably hear wear of a spherical stylus after as little as 50-100 hours! :(

With some top quality cartridges, the manufacturer will recommend stylus renewal after 200 -300 hours.

A general rule of thumb would be around 400 hours for a grain-orientated elliptical stylus and 800 hours for a line-contact stylus.

[Yiangos]

Andy,yes,around 3 hours a day would give you that.Mind you,Koetsus are the most expensive cartridges to retip.To give you an example,a koetsu black wich is around $1800 in the USA costs about $1500 for retiping and i am not so sure that includes the shiping costs.The cheapest high-end cartridges to retip are the van den hulls but i believe this is not the sound you're looking for.I agree with Andrew (lewis) as far as regarding the sme.Keep the V and go for something like a Benz micro glider.Cheaper than the Koetsu and much cheaper to retip.Also,Benz cartridges are more soulful than Lyras and VDHs.

[MartinT]

Andy ... FYI I'm running a Lyra Argo on an SME 20Mk1 with SMEV arm .. through valves and I find the sound just a touch clinical for my liking .... I too am looking for something a little sweeter without losing detail ... .. :scratch: ...

Try a Shelter, Brian. The 5000 is not sweet but it's less clinical than a Lyra.

[lewis]

I think you are right on that in as much that I may be better to go for the V and a cheaper cartridge, but that still leaves me somewhat not knowing which one to go for?

I'm not sure what your intended budget is for your cartridge, but a good £500 choice is the Dynavector dv20, which i use, and would recommend. A good £750 choice would be the Cartridgeman Music Maker mk3, which is one of the most musical cartridges going, and has plenty of great reviews. A good £1000 choice would be the Benz Wood sl, which won Hi fi world's best cartridge this year. Decisions, decisions!

[sprint]

I'm not sure what your intended budget is for your cartridge, but a good £500 choice is the Dynavector dv20, which i use, and would recommend. A good £750 choice would be the Cartridgeman Music Maker mk3, which is one of the most musical cartridges going, and has plenty of great reviews. A good £1000 choice would be the Benz Wood sl, which won Hi fi world's best cartridge this year. Decisions, decisions!

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.

As you finished, decisions, decisions....?

I think it is going to be between the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze (Highly recommended by Hi Fi World) or the Benz Micro Glider/Benz Wood? (high, medium or high output?)

I far as I can make out the Benz Micro Glider/Benz Wood is one and the same thing with the Wood being a Glider with a £200 wooden body, ouch!

What is the benefit, if any of a £200 wooden body over the original Glider?

[lewis]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.

As you finished, decisions, decisions....?

I think it is going to be between the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze (Highly recommended by Hi Fi World) or the Benz Micro Glider/Benz Wood? (high, medium or high output?)

I far as I can make out the Benz Micro Glider/Benz Wood is one and the same thing with the Wood being a Glider with a £200 wooden body, ouch!

What is the benefit, if any of a £200 wooden body over the original Glider?

You could do a lot worse than either of the Benz cartridges, but the Wood s is supposed to have better parts, aswell as the wood body, which is supposed to give a better, more natural, musical sound. Low, medium, or high output all depends on which phono stage you go for, with a mm stage you could go for a high output mc, or, go for a mc phono stage, and go for a low output mc.

[jandl100]

I had an Orty Rondo Bronze for quite a while (until I SNAFUed the cantilever suspension :doh:) and I enjoyed it a lot. I've also had a few lesser Orty carts over the years. Tbh, they gave CD-sound in a vinyl context. A bit upfront and driven, certainly compared to many other makes of cart I have experience of. Good fun, if that's the sound you want.

Over the years I keep coming back to Dynavector carts. 23RS, 17D2, 17D3, XX1L. Open, clear, lots of detail but never harsh or too upfront. I suspect, though, that my fave of all the DV carts I've tried is the 10X5 hi-output MC! :scratch: It's got an extra burst of energy and pizzaz and can make the higher cost DV options sound a little, well, boring!

Don't forget the Denon 103 variants, though.
One of the best carts I have had was a re-bodied standard 103.
Huge amounts of energy with a real spring in its step. Great fun.


.... and what about the Grado range or are MM's not to be in the picture for the proposed set-up?

Good question!
I recently picked up a slightly used Grado Statement Master.
Here's a pic cos it looks so sweet in its wooden body ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/GradoMasterStatement.jpg

A bit of an anomaly, as it's not a MC but has a low output of only 0.5mV at 5cm/s.
Previously my only experience with Grado was with a Gold Prestige mm cart. Dullsville, man. :zzz: ... despite being a multi-award winner at its £150 cost. I guess there are a lot of Pipe & Slipper listeners out there! (Which is fair enough, if that's what floats your boat.)
The Statement Master, though, is an entirely different kettle of swimmy things. :thumbsup:. Transparent, detailed and wide open as the Texas praire. Filigre detail, lovely focussed imaging, but with the oomph to make music happen in your room as well.
I've not heard a non-MC cart that can do this sort of combination of well-focussed delicacy and power before.
Must admit I am quite taken by this cart at the moment. :)

[lewis]

I agree with Jandl100 regarding the Dynavector cartridges, but before i upgraded to my current Dynavector dv20 xh, i had the Dynavector dv10x5 high output, and although the sound was superb, i found it a bit thin in the bass department. The Dynavector dv20 xh is a dv10 turbocharged, and has the bass to go with it!:)

[jandl100]

Ah, curious. Perhaps it comes down to matching arm & tt? ... my experience is that the 10X5 has a much juicier & more fullsome bottom end than the 17D3, for example. (I've not tried a dv20).

[MartinT]

The DV20X2L has very good bass power and extension, I would expect the 20X2H to be similar.

[DSJR]

Sorry to be boring again, but it comes down to what you prefer and maybe what's actually there on the vinyl.. Many records are cut with lower bass levels than intended, either because the cutter couldn't take it, granny's old music centre/record player would jump, or possibly because of the bass-heavy pickups many HiFi enthusiasts used to use.

I like the OC9 and DV17D way of doing things, finding the older DV20 models from a few years ago a bit too heavy in balance. I can quite understand others preferring the latter balance and finding the former cartridges too thin-toned for them...

The extra "balls" of the 10XV may just be the extra mass the groove has to push around. I do agree that the more "refined" you make a stylus assembly, the greater risk there is of blandness, all in the cause of "high fidelity.."

[jandl100]

Mmmmm ... retraction time!!

I've just had a hifi friend around for a few hours, and we did a CD vs LP-Grado Statement Master vs LP-DV10X5 comparison on an album I have in both formats.

The CD came last although it still sounded pretty good, the LP-Grado was middling and the LP-DV10X5 came out a fairly easy winner!

I'm not saying this conclusion is universal, but something about the 10X5 just suits my system.

Anyone fancy a great condition Grado Statement Master? :)

[lewis]

Like you said Jerry, it's probably all to do with system synergy, and there are more questions than answers! Although my system is not bass light, (Origin live Aurora Gold, Ol silver mk2, dv20xh, Unison Research s6, Kef ref 2.2), the dv10xv was bass light in my system. I don't like too much bass either, i prefer quality over quantity.