QUAD ESL 57's with super tweeters and sub woofers

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've had my 57's now for about 4 weeks, they are very good. But I wondering if anyone had tried sub woofers and super tweeters?? Are they worth it and has anyone tried them in there systems??? i just thought i'd be cheeky and ask :eek:

[Ali Tait]

Cone woofers don't work with statics. They are just not fast enough. A good supertweeter should work well though.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well.........there was the Levinson HQD system.
Big, big, Hartley woofers & Decca ribbons.

[Barry]

Just to give you an idea of what Chris (The Grand Wazoo) is talking about:

http://www.hautefidelite-hifi.com/up...inson/hqd2.jpg

But this is perhaps the ultimate development of a speaker system using Quad 57s - a subject of ‘wet dreams’ of yours truly!

Seriously though, there is a question I must ask; “You seem to be enjoying your Quads, so why the need to supplement them with egregious woofers and tweeters?”

Actually I don’t wish to appear cynical, as knowing that I cannot use stacked Quads (I have tried them – they are fabulous, but I simply don’t have the space for them), I have considered trying out a sub-woofer with them.

And this is where the difficulty starts. The Quads, like all electrostatic speakers (apart from the Shackman Dynastatic ) are dipole designs. It is very difficult to integrate ‘monopole’ speakers, such as woofers, where the driver is in some sort of cabinet, and super tweeters with dipole designs. Now I know the Levinson system uses such devices; indeed it got rave reviews, but I have never heard such a system myself. Martin Logan seem to be able to do it, according the favourable reviews of their hybrid electrostatic sealed-enclosure woofer designs, but again I have never heard these.

There is also another consideration to be made. If you are going to extend, or supplement the frequency response of the Quads, this has to be done in a symmetrical manner: that is, if you are going to extend the high frequency response upwards, you need to extend the low frequency response downward by a similar amount.

There is a theory that for any speaker to sound balanced, the product of the low frequency –3dB point (in Hz) multiplied by the upper frequency –3dB point (also in Hz), should be ~ 400,000. Thus for an “ideal” speaker this would be 20Hz and 20kHz, yet a more modest one spanning 40 – 10,000 Hz should sound just as balanced. This is a somewhat contentious idea, but I think it has some validity.

So to the Quad 57s: well they have a quoted response of 45 – 18,000Hz, or a product of 810,000. Thus one should supplement the response with a sub woofer whose response extends down to 22Hz. An active sub-woofer, wherein the driver faces downwards may overcome the integration problem. This is something I have wanted to try. REL and B&W make some excellent sub-woofers. A friend of mine has offered me the chance to try such a device – I just haven’t had the time to do so. The Finnish company Gradiente made sub-woofers, especially for the Quads (both 57 and 63s) and these received good reviews. I have never heard them though.

Likewise using super-tweeters: there is an aberration (resonance) around 9kHz with the Quad 57s. Many have commented that using super-tweeters whose response extends to supersonic frequencies (that is, above the perceived upper limit of human hearing) can be beneficial. Again I’m inclined to agree: although we may not directly perceive pure tones above 20kHz (and, alas with age this limit quickly comes down), one is aware of the presence, or not, of harmonics above this frequency. I wrote about this on the forum: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11634&highlight=Can%27t+hear+high+frequencies.

But as I say, if you are going to supplement the high frequency response, you really ought to ‘balance’ it by also supplementing the low frequencies.

If you do want to go ahead and try extending the response of your Quad 57s, don’t bother with using any form of crossover: run the Quads full range.

Perhaps it is just simpler to leave things as they are. If you can’t, or don’t want to, stack the Quad 57s, enjoy them as they are. Often, to quote the words of the Bauhaus architect Mies Van de Rohe: “the less is more”.

Trust this is of some help.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Just to give you an idea of what Chris (The Grand Wazoo) is talking about:

http://www.hautefidelite-hifi.com/up...inson/hqd2.jpg



....or take a look here. Stacked Quads + 24" woofers = ???

[Barry]

....or take a look here. Stacked Quads + 24" woofers = ???

Where is the link Chris?

[Ali Tait]

I have heard ML's, and IMHO, they sounded the same as the ER Audio statics I had. Colin built them, and had included a sub on each speaker, driven by an active crossover and high power MOSFET amps. He tried for years to successfully marry them to the panels, and gave up in the end. I found the same when I bought them. He now uses a pair of 63's with fostex supertweeter which he says works very well. I may try a pair with my Acorns when they areup and running again.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Where is the link Chris?

Oops!

http://soundartiwakura.jp/bbs/bbs/board.php?bo_table=soundartphiles&wr_id=111&page=2

[The Black Adder]

What are you playing on the stats? - I've heard that they are wonderful for classical stuff but don't really rock. I'm expecting to be wrestled to the ground for saying that so if I'm wrong then thats cool.

[Reid Malenfant]

Electrostatics are fast, damn near instant! If you want to pair them with subs look for very low QTS bass drivers as the amplifiers that power these will have much more control. Make sure that the amps feeding the subs have a high damping factor so they can control the cones ;)

Low QTS means better transient response, or if you like it'll start & stop faster which is what you want ;) Some of the Precision Devices range which include a 24" driver may well be good for this. If i remember right the 24" has a QTS of about 0.33, you might be better off looking at some of the 21" range as they are lower.

So you might not get the deepest bass in the world, but even 25Hz bass will be supremely clean, fast & accurate :)

Oh, i forgot the loud bit!

[hifi_dave]

Many, many moons ago, ProAc made the ProStatic. This employed a 12 inch ATC bass driver in a cabinet the width of the ESL 57 which then stood on top. To extend the HF a Motorola piezo tweeter was attached to the front panel.

[Wakefield Turntables]

What are you playing on the stats? - I've heard that they are wonderful for classical stuff but don't really rock. I'm expecting to be wrestled to the ground for saying that so if I'm wrong then thats cool.


I got the ESL's to partner the Radfords:cool: But i intend to listen to stuff like piano jazz, maybe a little classical, accoustic and vocal recordings. I think I'm also going to dig out my Garrard 301 and SME 3009 out and get them fettled up to use in this all valve system. I may even get a specific valve phono stage when funds permit. This is my 2nd system, the other is the 1210 system (as listed in my signature) which mainly handles prog rock and heavy/thrash metal and all the fantastic heavy rock from the 70's :eek: Whilst the 1210 can handle pretty much anything I fancied a 2nd system for easy listening and wanted some with a "warm" sound to it unlike the 1210 which is so forensic it'll rip yeah face off given half a chance. :lol:

[montiverdi]

I know this doesn't involve a woofer or supertweeter, but I found some pics of stacked pairs in lovely wooden cabinets here...

http://www.record-producer.com/?a=5202

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've seen other projects like this in the past but they are just insane!

[Spur07]

I heard some ESL 57's today driven with original Quad II's and i thought they sounded superb, such a big, mature sound with plenty enough bass for me.

[Barry]

I heard some ESL 57's today driven with original Quad II's and i thought they sounded superb, such a big, mature sound with plenty enough bass for me.

Well, I've been using mine (unmodified) for nearly forty years. I wouldn't change them for anything else, simply because they do what is most important for me. I put up with their shortcomings, because those are not so important to me.

However if you can stack them, the benefits gained are very worthwhile. The sense of presence is palpable, and they can be played louder with some useful extension to the bass response. Oh - if only I had the room!

[Reid Malenfant]

However if you can stack them, the benefits gained are very worthwhile. The sense of presence is palpable, and they can be played louder with some useful extension to the bass response. Oh - if only I had the room!
Strangely I always find that there tends to be a big gap between loudspeakers & ceiling, are you sure you don't have room Barry, it's all going upwards after all :D

[Barry]

Strangely I always find that there tends to be a big gap between loudspeakers & ceiling, are you sure you don't have room Barry, it's all going upwards after all :D

Haha - yes I have the room, however it's a matter of aesthetics: the stacked pairs would dominate my listening/living room. Stacked pairs would cut down the light and I do like plenty of natural daylight.

And before Marco reminds me that I ought not sacrifice sound quality for the sake of appearance, I will say again: I would entertain stacked pairs if the room was considerably wider where the speakers are positioned.

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm assuming you have a window behind the speakers then Barry, that didn't come into my equations unfortunately :(

I understand... Try listening with your eyes closed like Martin does :D

[dantheman91]

I know this doesn't involve a woofer or supertweeter, but I found some pics of stacked pairs in lovely wooden cabinets here...

http://www.record-producer.com/?a=5202



HI

i think you better pop into the welcome section and introduce yourself and you hi-fi taste in music etc. before the forum police come to get you :eyebrows:

[Reid Malenfant]

HI

i think you better pop into the welcome section and introduce yourself and you hi-fi taste in music etc. before the forum police come to get you :eyebrows:
Damn, looks like the police are out on a binge :eyebrows:

:doh:

Well spotted :D

[Ali Tait]

I have a pair of these-

http://www.eraudio.com.au/DIY_Speaker_Kits/Acorn_ESL_kit/acorn_esl_kit.html

- which are effectively stacked panels. they sound superb, and do very good bass for statics.

[Barry]

I have a pair of these-

http://www.eraudio.com.au/DIY_Speaker_Kits/Acorn_ESL_kit/acorn_esl_kit.html

- which are effectively stacked panels. they sound superb, and do very good bass for statics.

How are the 'transformerless' ESLs coming along Ali? I believe you were working on directly coupling the ESL stators to the anodes of a push-pull valved power amplifier.

Regards

[Ali Tait]

Well Nick is, when I get the rest of the money to him to get them finished. Been spending money on the valve dac lately, bought a pair of O'Netics output transformers for it.

[icehockeyboy]

Fwiw, Mark at The Missing Link uses a sub with his Quads, at least he did last time I was there, and it sounded great!

[Ali Tait]

Cool, glad someone's got it to work, I never could.