Fast ripping of CDs (and storage)

[dave2010]

Someone in our house (not me) keeps remarking on the piles of CDs, the boxes stored in cupboards, the new boxes which come in from Amazon and elsewhere. :) :) I guess many of us have similar conversations.

Occasionally I get comments such as "why don't we put all the CDs on a device ..." - (such as one of those Brennan thingies ...) and "then store all the CDs in a big box somewhere else" - typically mentions garage, shed, loft etc.

One of the reasons I don't particularly want to go this way is just the sheer time involved. With several thousand CDs, if each took 5 minutes (optimistic) to store, that'd be getting on for 200 hours non-stop. Then Sod's law would probably kick in anyway, and the drive or data storage device would get damaged or nicked, and the whole effort would be wasted.

I'm guessing that perhaps the most sensible approach, if I am to even think of going this way at all, is to select maybe the 200 or so most interesting CDs, and then rip them to a hard drive, and then play them back via my network and Squeezebox. That way my time involvement could perhaps be reduced to a few days, but at the end of it all, it'd only save the equivalent of approximately one IKEA CD rack.

I have looked at the specs of the Brennan JB7 - OK, but not too thrilling. If I remember it can only save to MP3 and WAV. WAV might not be too bad, and I think it can export to a hard drive.

Other devices which might also do similar things are from Olive (e.g 3HD recorder), and the XIVA musicm8. I did hear very good things about older CD recorders - such as a Yamaha model with a disc drive - but unfortunately I never quite got into CD recorders, and some which might have had suitably high audio quality, together with storage for quite a collection of CDs, passed me by.

A DIY solution might also be feasible - for example using a PC as a Linux box, and put in several CD drives for ripping. Anyone tried that?

[Macca]

As far as Brennan goes read this thread if you didn't already:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8517&highlight=brennan

[Tim]

A DIY solution might also be feasible - for example using a PC as a Linux box, and put in several CD drives for ripping. Anyone tried that?
I haven't tried multiple rips, and I doubt your processor would cope with it, I'm just going to run a test and see what a drain it would be?

I recently ripped around 1,500 CD's and if they are in good condition, you can get them done in around 2 minutes each, if they are marked and you need to use error correction, that can take 5 minutes +, depending on how bad they are. But it's a ONCE only task and believe you me, if you ever do do it, you will be making regular backups for sure - I'm never doing that again :lol:. But for me the pluses are fantastic, I have my entire CD collection on a 2TB drive, I listen to far more music and it only takes a few mouse clicks to find anything.

I would build your own if you can, the sound quality you will achieve from a dedicated music player will outclass the units you have mentioned and cost a darn sight less, but you will need a good DAC. You should also get lot's of help from the file audio boys here, if you get stuck or need advice :)

And if you don't want to build one, get a Squeezebox.

[Tim]

OK, I just did a single rip using EAC for a FLAC file. This is on a fairly well sorted PC running Win7 x64 with nothing else running on it, apart from this web browser. It's using 1.7 GB RAM and the CPU was running at around 10%, but with regular peaks to 50~60% (Dual core 3.16GHz), so you would need a pretty beefy PC to run multiple rips IMO. Additionally, I reckon you would increase the risks of getting errors and may have to start again. Your rips would take considerably longer, so what you gained by doing multiples, would be cancelled out.

My advice would be a single rip at a time, using a good desktop PC with a good quality drive. A laptop is not good for long ripping sessions.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/test.jpg

Intel E8500
8 GB RAM 1066MHz DDR2
Plextor PX-L890SA drive
Rickie Lee Jones - Pirates
EAC v0.99
FLAC file

EDIT: And +1 for Martins' post, avoid the Brennan.

[webby]

I went through the same process recently, actually I'm still part way through it. Ok, I don't have thousands of CDs, probably more like 600. I started selectively ripping to alac using xld and I've done around 300 I guess but I've got to the point where I'm now thinking to myself "do I want to rip the rest of these CDs? You've got your absolutely favourites, why not use spotify premium for the rest? It's lossy yes, but I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference".

So that's where I am right now. About 300 CDs stored nicely under the bed and the remainder waiting for me to make my mind up.:scratch:

[Stratmangler]

I went through the same process recently, actually I'm still part way through it. Ok, I don't have thousands of CDs, probably more like 600. I started selectively ripping to alac using xld and I've done around 300 I guess but I've got to the point where I'm now thinking to myself "do I want to rip the rest of these CDs? You've got your absolutely favourites, why not use spotify premium for the rest? It's lossy yes, but I doubt I'll be able to tell the difference".

So that's where I am right now. About 300 CDs stored nicely under the bed and the remainder waiting for me to make my mind up.:scratch:

Have you tested that statement ?
I've compared CDs to Spotify @ 320kbps and the difference is quality is very apparent - the CDs have much more detail and sound better as a result.

[webby]

No I haven't, but I do know that I don't have golden lugholes. :eyebrows:

[Stratmangler]

No I haven't, but I do know that I don't have golden lugholes. :eyebrows:

Neither have I :)
Golden ears that is.

[Tim]

Have you tested that statement ?
I've compared CDs to Spotify @ 320kbps and the difference is quality is very apparent - the CDs have much more detail and sound better as a result.
+1, quite a big difference even to my cloth ears - of course you need the right equipment to reveal that difference?

[webby]

One of the reasons I don't particularly want to go this way is just the sheer time involved.

Another alternative is to use a cd ripping service such as RipCaster (https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/node/6?gclid=CLjqs__OmaoCFZRX4QodW087ww), i-fi (http://www.i-fi.co.uk/?gclid=CN34uYDPmaoCFUkT3wodWSnhyQ#!services) or ExactRip (http://www.exactrip.co.uk/).

[Tim]

Jeez, for that money I'll do it and a lot cheaper too :lol:

[webby]

Jeez, for that money I'll do it and a lot cheaper too :lol:

I thought about that too, but thought I'd just share the info.

[Tim]

At nearly a pound a pop, I could take a week off work and get paid more than my regular job, for sitting at home and listening to music :)

[brainz2000]

Vortexbox is designed to do just what you want .... Or dbpoweramp in bulk ripping mode...

I used both when ripping my cd collection

Tim

[Tim]

Does Vortexbox rip multiple CD's at the same time, not heard of that one?

[dave2010]

I haven't tried multiple rips, and I doubt your processor would cope with it, I'm just going to run a test and see what a drain it would be?I was amazed just now. In my tests on my iMac (couple of years old), the CDs took between 8-10 minutes to rip to FLAC using Max. I looked at the CPU usage, and it was between 2%-25%, and disc usage was nowhere near max either. I was also streaming a previously ripped FLAC file to my Squeezebox at the same time. I did think of stressing the machine out more - for example by running VLC or even Quicktime on HD videos, but I know that on this machine that doesn't work too well even without anything else running.

The new iMacs (and indeed even the Macbook Pros) are maybe 3-8 times faster than mine, so probably would have even less load on the CPU.

I have older PCs, and I'm not desperate to buy another one. The number of hours I've spent (wasted!!*?&*?!!! ... aaaggghAAGGGHHH!!!) on PCs (not always my own - indeed often other people's) trying to keep them working or restoring them back to life probably far exceeds the time I would spend on ripping. I guess I could afford a new one though, just for this job, though maybe it would be better to buy another iMac or even a Mac mini. If things are better/faster using Windows (not sure that they would be), then I could run Bootcamp or one of the emulation packages - VMWARE/Parallels/VirtualBox - but right now it is looking as though maybe just one newish iMac will do the job.


I recently ripped around 1,500 CD's and if they are in good condition, you can get them done in around 2 minutes each ...May be possible, but depends on kit, and what else is going on. Not sure if Max is fast - as above - but might test out other ways, maybe even iTunes -> ALAC. What did you use to do the rips, and what PC or PC spec do you have?

What surprised me is that it does seem that I can work on the iMac at the same time, so even if I can only do 6 CDs per hour, then it might only take a modest number of months "working" time to get most done. If I also set up my machine at work to do this, then I could transfer the files back each day or week, and it could well be possible to get through 20 or so a day - with relatively little extra effort. As it happens, the "inquirer" about the possibility of storing CDs this way has also offered to help/do the work, so if everyone in my family is trained up to do this, then maybe it would only take 6 months to get everything onto hard drives.

Probably need several hard drives and an organised plan for action though.


I would build your own if you can, the sound quality you will achieve from a dedicated music player will outclass the units you have mentioned and cost a darn sight less, but you will need a good DAC. You should also get lot's of help from the file audio boys here, if you get stuck or need advice :)Thanks - that might be a project for when I finally give up work - scheduled for a couple of years.


And if you don't want to build one, get a Squeezebox.Got an SB3 and a BoomBox model already. I feed the SB3 into a Caiman.

[webby]

New mac mini's that have just come out have no optical drive! This could mean you can pick up the previous model and save a few quid. Whatever, the mac mini is a great machine. See here: http://www.solutions-inc.co.uk/index.php/store/mac-computers/1868-apple-mac-mini-24ghz-intel-core-2-duo-320gb-was-p64900

Edit: I use XLD for ripping to ALAC on my 2006 imac. Takes about 5 mins per cd, but it depends on the settings I guess. I use XLD's secure ripper and check the AccurateRip database for integrity. I do not verify suspicious sectors or test before copy as this would slow the process by half. I've not had a bad rip yet.

[Tim]

Lots of food for thought there, I have no experience of Mac's, but an 8-10 minute rip time is not very enticing!


I have older PCs, and I'm not desperate to buy another one. The number of hours I've spent (wasted!!*?&*?!!! ... aaaggghAAGGGHHH!!!) on PCs (not always my own - indeed often other people's) trying to keep them working or restoring them back to life probably far exceeds the time I would spend on ripping.
Lol, tell me about it - I have stopped repairing other peoples computers now, I used to do it a lot, but got fed up of being taken advantage so I changed tack. I did a few jobs at work for people, but started charging and my prices were 50% of whatever PC World would charge. Strangely the requests have dried up now, which was the intention ;)


What did you use to do the rips, and what PC or PC spec do you have?
Specs are after my performance screen capture;
Home built
Win7 Pro x64
Intel E8500 3.16GHz dual core CPU
8GB RAM 1066MHz DDR2
Plextor PX-L890SA optical drive
EAC v0.99

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de

http://www.dbpoweramp.com

I have always used Exact Audio Copy to do my rips, mainly for the error correction. It is fiddly to set up the first time, but once you do it, that's it. You can create differing ripping profiles, so I have a profile for speed which on an unmarked prisitine CD (as most of mine are) can do a rip in under 2 mins. Then I have an error correction profile for charity shop and eBay CD's, which takes longer - around 5 mins. dBpoweramp is very popular and a lot easier to use, but I have only played with it, but it certainly has a lot of very useful functionality. EAC is free, dBpoweramp costs around $38.00 with a free trial available. Try them out and choose? I found the drive is very important too, I started with a Pioneer drive that during long sessions used to slow and get problems with error correction failing, probably due to heat. I now have a Plextor, which I love, it's fast and gives accurate rips every time - laptops . . . forget it, unless it's just a single rip every now and then.


Probably need several hard drives and an organised plan for action though.

Definatley, this is the most important element, as you won't have the stomach to do it again, so a backup plan is essential. Hard drives are so cheap now though and you should easily get 4,000+ CD's on a 2 TB drive.

[dave2010]

Lots of food for thought there, I have no experience of Mac's, but an 8-10 minute rip time is not very enticing!I'd agree with you if it wasn't possible to do anything else. Actually I'm not sure that it is such a problem if it's possible to get on with other work at the same time. The timings I gave were in the modes with paranoid error detection and verification - both in Max and in iTunes. Actually I've just done another one which took only 5 minutes direct into iTunes - I think the timings depend on the degree of error correction and also on the final destination of the files.


Lol, tell me about it - I have stopped repairing other peoples computers now, I used to do it a lot, but got fed up of being taken advantage so I changed tack. I did a few jobs at work for people, but started charging and my prices were 50% of whatever PC World would charge. Strangely the requests have dried up now, which was the intention ;)Well done. In my case it's harder - because the requests come from a wife and daughter who insist on using these things, but manage to turn their problems in to my problem! It's got to the point where I'd rather buy them new Apple kit than spend any more time on such problems. Could fill a whole thread or forum about this!

I've still got a Vista laptop with either a dead hard drive or a virus waiting to be dealt with. Fixed it once, but ....


I have always used Exact Audio Copy to do my rips, mainly for the error correction. Despite above, I have and do still use PCs for some things, and EAC is one program I do use for ripping if I'm on a PC.


Definatley, this is the most important element, as you won't have the stomach to do it again, so a backup plan is essential. Hard drives are so cheap now though and you should easily get 4,000+ CD's on a 2 TB drive.I am certainly not going to do this without reasonable backups, once we get going.

[Tim]

Good luck with your quest anyway Dave, whichever route you take. It is a lot of effort to start with, but the rewards are worth it IMO :)

[dave2010]

TIm

Thanks for encouragement. I posted this - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12494 - but went ahead and downloaded Squeezepad anyway. According to forums elsewhere I'll end up downloading iPeng as well. Not absolutely perfect, but amazing that it can drive the kit (several players including the iPad itself), and I reckon the sound quality via

iMac -> Wireless LAN -> Squeezebox -> Caiman -> Beyer DTX900 or alternatively
iMac -> Wireless LAN -> Squeezebox -> Caiman -> Bantam Gold -> Sanyo Hi Fi Ones
is pretty good.

I have a feeling that the quality via the Squeezebox beats most other modes, so it's not just the convenience factor. Currently listening to a download from emusic - Miklos Rozsa piano concerto, and this sounds much better than I remember it, which considering the mangled sounds one sometimes gets from compressed audio is an achievement.

The convenience is also good though, just a few seconds tapping, and I can be listening to something completely different.

There are several other points/queries I want to make/ask about ripping, but they can wait for a little while (day or two), now that I'm having some success with this.

[WAD62]

I use SqueezeCommander on my Android phone to handle 3 SBs, much better than the Squeezebox controler...

dBpoweramp is the way to go for ripping to FLAC, and get yourself a good CD drive, makes it much quicker and more accurate...;)

[Tim]

There are several other points/queries I want to make/ask about ripping, but they can wait for a little while (day or two), now that I'm having some success with this.
No probs and ask away, there are a quite a few members who use file based audio, so a problem shared, should hopefully be a problem solved.

:cool:

[dave2010]

No probs and ask away, there are a quite a few members who use file based audio, so a problem shared, should hopefully be a problem solved.

:cool:OK. I shall ask away with specific topics. First one follows almost immediately, but there may be a few coming shortly.

[dave2010]

The first issue I considered is which lossless format to use. AFAIK the most common ones are ALAC and FLAC. Some other formats may have both lossy and lossless variants.

Personally I can convert to either ALAC or FLAC, but since I use an iMac frequently the "obvious" choice is ALAC. This gives immediate iTunes compatibility, and it seems to be compatible with my Squeezebox kit too.

I assume that if necessary I can convert from ALAC back to FLAC, so there is no harm in choosing ALAC at the outset.

On the other hand, some people may recommend FLAC, which for me would give an immediate compatibility issue with iTunes, though there are ways round, for example using Fluke - http://code.google.com/p/flukeformac/

Some people may find FLAC is immediately more convenient for them.

Can I assume that, for me, that ALAC is really the way to go?

[dave2010]

Following Issue 1, it seems reasonable for me to stick with iTunes for playing some of the ALAC files, and my Logitech kit works with those.

Some people - particularly those who don't use iPods or iMacs, but who are using PCs may wish to use other players and playback devices. It is quite possible that some players and devices won't play ALAC, in which case that either restricts the players to be used, or step 1 - choice of format - needs to be changed.

[dave2010]

I assume that there are good converters which can convert from ALAC to FLAC and/or FLAC to ALAC. While I hope that I don't need these initially, at some later stage it might be necessary. By then I would hope to be able to do batch conversion from files on one drive to another.

Is it easier going one way rather than the other? Are some tools easier to use than others? Recommendations!

[webby]

I rip everything to alac using XLD. It's pretty easy to use. I only use that over iTunes own converter cos iTunes doesn't produce a log report or reference the accurate rip database.

Tags are handled by freedb or musicbrainz in xld and for my purposes are perfectly adequate. XLD also offers replay gain. I don't use it but some do.
XLD converts to all kinds of formats and I believe can rip to 2 formats at once.
So you could rip to alac for the home and aac for the iPod for instance.

I add artwork manually using album art exchange.

[Stratmangler]

IIRC Squeezebox Server transcodes ALAC to FLAC on the fly.

ALAC is fine - it can be decompressed back to AIFF or WAV if necessary.
I don't use it myself because it's proprietary to Apple, and that usually means that using a licensed Apple product is a must.

[dave2010]

Most tools, such as iTunes etc., will try to match CD tracks against a CD database - often the Gracenote one.

This clearly saves a lot of time, and in many cases will also cause the artwork to be located - not sure how - but it does, and can appear in a user interface, such as for SqueezePad.

Some rippers are not so good at this - for example when I ripped a CD using Max for MacOS the other day, it couldn't find the data for one CD, so I had to partially enter it manually, and all the tracks were given numbers - relative to the name I provided.

I don't know how easy it is to modify such metadata afterwards, but in the first instance it helps to get as much accurate data as possible. The time taken to enter/correct such data can easily approach or exceed the ripping time. If only a few CDs aren't recognised this might not be a problem, but it could be if this happens relatively often.

I noticed a few years ago that some tools use different databases, and give different results. Are there any preferred tools/databases?

[WAD62]

dBpoweramp to FLAC, with AMG smart metadata & CRC check sum digit verification...;)

But not for a mac...

[webby]

Most tools, such as iTunes etc., will try to match CD tracks against a CD database - often the Gracenote one.

This clearly saves a lot of time, and in many cases will also cause the artwork to be located - not sure how - but it does, and can appear in a user interface, such as for SqueezePad.

Some rippers are not so good at this - for example when I ripped a CD using Max for MacOS the other day, it couldn't find the data for one CD, so I had to partially enter it manually, and all the tracks were given numbers - relative to the name I provided.

I don't know how easy it is to modify such metadata afterwards, but in the first instance it helps to get as much accurate data as possible. The time taken to enter/correct such data can easily approach or exceed the ripping time. If only a few CDs aren't recognised this might not be a problem, but it could be if this happens relatively often.

I noticed a few years ago that some tools use different databases, and give different results. Are there any preferred tools/databases?

Answer:


I rip everything to alac using XLD. It's pretty easy to use. I only use that over iTunes own converter cos iTunes doesn't produce a log report or reference the accurate rip database.

Tags are handled by freedb or musicbrainz in xld and for my purposes are perfectly adequate. XLD also offers replay gain. I don't use it but some do.
XLD converts to all kinds of formats and I believe can rip to 2 formats at once.
So you could rip to alac for the home and aac for the iPod for instance.

I add artwork manually using album art exchange.

[dave2010]

dBpoweramp to FLAC, with AMG smart metadata & CRC check sum digit verification...;)

But not for a mac...re Macs ...
Can be done with dBpoweramp I think using Bootcamp or one of the VM systems using a Mac. VM options are Parallels, VMWare and VirtualBox. I've not actually done exactly this, but I believe it should work. If there's a trial version of dBpoweramp it should be easy for me to test that on both VMWare and Bootcamp over the next few days.

There are other options, but that'd maybe be good for someone who particularly wanted to use dBpoweramp.

[sburrell]

Hi Dave,

I've been through the process of ripping my CDs already, though I've only a few hundred, certainly not as many as you. I found this site very helpful:
http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/
Helps you determine the best drive for ripping purposes. Choosing the right drive can make a big difference to ripping speed, especially if you get one that actually (not ostensibly) supports C2 error correction. You'll notice that there are other things that drives can do that you may not have considered, such as HTOA (http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/htoa.php) (Hidden Track One Audio) access. Then there's Accurate Stream and non-caching drives, both of which spead up the process considerably.
After that I recommend XLD on the Mac, as others already have. It seems to have an issue right now tagging using MusicBrainz, but otherwise I find it the best option for direct ripping to my preferred format, ALAC. Using XLD, I achieve excellent results with AccurateRip and certainly only about 10-15 seconds per track - so about 5 minutes for a trouble-free 20-track CD, not 8-10 minutes. I recommend you set it to eject CDs once they're ripped, this saves another step. If you set it up correctly, you can have it so that you simply insert a CD, have it rip, and remove the CD all without user interaction, greatly speeding up the process.
EDIT: I've just found also that, if you have two drives, you can insert a second CD and it will cue it up in the list to be done as soon as the first is finished. At the moment simultaneous ripping doesn't seem to be supported, but this can still shave time off your ripping process - and if you decided to borrow an external drive and make it three or more optical drives, even more so. It cuts out the delay inherent in the change-over between discs.

As for storage, I heartily recommend you use ZFS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS)-based external storage for the data integrity - HFS+ does not support data integrity, which is one of its current flaws. If you choose to back up to removable media (which is not a stupid idea, considering you can probably get 14 ALAC'd CDs on one DVD), make sure you choose DVD+R media, is this has better data integrity features than DVD-R.
Good luck :)

[WAD62]

re Macs ...
Can be done with dBpoweramp I think using Bootcamp or one of the VM systems using a Mac. VM options are Parallels, VMWare and VirtualBox. I've not actually done exactly this, but I believe it should work. If there's a trial version of dBpoweramp it should be easy for me to test that on both VMWare and Bootcamp over the next few days.

There are other options, but that'd maybe be good for someone who particularly wanted to use dBpoweramp.

If you can get it working I'd thoroughly recommend it, very good meta data, and the CRC check against a DB of CRC's for the same CD is very useful.

I started using EAC, but to do a large volume dBpoweramp would be my recommendation.

It also has very good batch conversion capabilities...:)

[dave2010]

As I rip CDs - now mostly to ALAC, I think that there can be more than one library system. I use iTunes at present, and this somehow cooperates with the Squeezebox server. I'm assuming that since the ALAC format is lossless, that iTunes will do better or worse than any other system. This would not necessarily be the case if I used a lossy codec.

So far I've not had a problem, but I'm aware that problems may come later.

Issue 5a: How good are tools such as iTunes with very large collections? Can they go belly up above a certain number of albums/tracks?

Issue 5b: How easy is it to migrate the audio files from one library system to another?

Issue 5c: Are there any preferred library systems?

I'll come back with other iTunes related issues later, but these more general issues re the library systems will do for now.

[WAD62]

Most music players/server such as SqueezeServer or winamp only require that you tell them where your library is, then they build a catalogue/index of the data.

I just point both of my players at my FLAC library on my NAS and there's no problem. And perform a reindex whenever I add more data to my library.

However as soon as iTunes gets involved I think everything becomes rather confusing...and I'll dip out for a more knowledgeable Mac person. ;)

[Tim]

I can't really add anything here as I don't have any experience of MAC's and don't use iTunes, in fact I dislike it intensely, but thats just me.

Foobar automatically indexes my library and monitor's it at all times, so as soon as I add another CD it picks it up and adds it to the index.

My master library is FLAC and I use Easy CD-DA Extractor, when I want to convert to another file format. I also have a second library of .mp3 files which mirrors the FLAC library for use on portable players, but mostly it's for USB sticks to plug into the car player. When I converted my master library to .mp3 it took over 5 days to complete!

[WAD62]

My master library is FLAC and I use Easy CD-DA Extractor, when I want to convert to another file format. I also have a second library of .mp3 files which mirrors the FLAC library for use on portable players, but mostly it's for USB sticks to plug into the car player. When I converted my master library to .mp3 it took over 5 days to complete!

Similar experience Tim, and for the same reasons...

I used dBpoweramp and did it in alphabetical sections...otherwise my CPU would have melted through the floorboards. ;)

P.S. Seconded R.E. iTunes, it's the bete noir of software :steam:

[camtwister]

If you choose to back up to removable media make sure you choose DVD+R media, is this has better data integrity features than DVD-R.


Hi Simon,

If you have time, would you mind expanding on this? Thank you.
I use DVD to archive data and audio. I once used DVD-R exclusively, because I was working in a studio and the SuperDrives in Macs could only read that format at the time. Now that current Macs can read both formats, should I consider putting material on DVD+R and why?

Ta!

[pwood]

I ripped my collection of 400CD's last Christmas and it took a couple of months in between having a life. I used DBpoweramp and a laptop which took on average 6-8mins to rip a disc to FLAC. A dedicated drive would have been faster but I was already fiscally challenged from the outlay of the Sonos, NAS combo and subsequent USB harddisk for a further backup.

Start with the most recent and most played stuff so you can start enjoying the benefits right away.

[dave2010]

One problem which can happen is that a CD is put in, and ripped, but although the track details are more or less correct, the album details are in Japanese or Chinese. I guess that using the Musicbrainz tool mentioned or other tools, that this kind of problem can be fixed, but right now I don't know how to do it.

It has just happened to me with a Decca CD - disc 1 of a 3 CD set 473 255-2 Mendelssohn String Quartets played by the Ysaye Quartet.

I don't know if I can edit the details in iTunes, or if I need to do something else to get this right.

[Tim]

One problem which can happen it that a CD is put in, and ripped, but although the track details are more or less correct, the album details are in Japanese or Chinese. I guess that using the Musicbrainz tool mentioned or other tools, that this kind of problem can be fixed, but right now I don't know how to do it.

It has just happened to me with a Decca CD - disc 1 of a 3 CD set 473 255-2 Mendelssohn String Quartets played by the Ysaye Quartet.

I don't know if I can edit the details in iTunes, or if I need to do something else to get this right.
Recognition of Classical CD's can be a right royal pain in the A - hence why I haven't finished mine. Too often I have to edit the album details myself. Gracenote seems to be one of the best, but still gets it wrong quite often :(

[Stratmangler]

One problem which can happen it that a CD is put in, and ripped, but although the track details are more or less correct, the album details are in Japanese or Chinese. I guess that using the Musicbrainz tool mentioned or other tools, that this kind of problem can be fixed, but right now I don't know how to do it.

It has just happened to me with a Decca CD - disc 1 of a 3 CD set 473 255-2 Mendelssohn String Quartets played by the Ysaye Quartet.

I don't know if I can edit the details in iTunes, or if I need to do something else to get this right.

MP3Tag is very good for tag editing, but you'll need to run it on a PC.

[Tim]

I don't know if I can edit the details in iTunes, or if I need to do something else to get this right.
:D Yep, buy a PC - iTunes is the devil for serious file audio.

[dave2010]

:D Yep, buy a PC - iTunes is the devil for serious file audio.No way! I have PCs and I want a life! I agree that there may be some problems with iTunes. If necessary I'll run in emulation mode, but I don't want to have any more Windows machines in the house. I reckon I've saved at least an hour a day, possibly two, by NOT having Windows/PCs to mess with. If you've tried Apple kit and it didn't work for you, then fine, but if you haven't you should believe me when I say that the Apple stuff is much easier to maintain.

I haven't got onto some of the issues with iTunes yet - such as ripping several versions of Beethoven symphonies, then ending up with a complete mess, such as

Movt1A,Movt1B,MovtC,Movt2A,Movt2B,Movt2C,Movt2D,Mo vt3A,Movt3B,Movt3C,Movt3D,Movt4A,Movt4B,Movt4C,Mov t14D etc

where A, B, C, D represent different versions.

Having said that iTunes is poor for some things, is it really the case that other systems do better? I'm not convinced yet. Just because there are known problems with a system (such as iTunes) does not mean that other systems will actually do better.

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


I don't want to have any more Windows machines in the house

that’s also my opinion. Don’t understand why Tim bashes Apple that often. If Apple hard- and software really was that bad, I wonder why in nearly all audio recording studios Apple stuff is used.

Werner.

[Stratmangler]

Dave,



that’s also my opinion. Don’t understand why Tim bashes Apple that often. If Apple hard- and software really was that bad, I wonder why in nearly all audio recording studios Apple stuff is used.

Werner.

Probably because the same small group of people keep on doing the rounds, and they demand that they have stuff where they don't have to relearn how the software works.

[Werner Berghofer]

Chris,

I don’t think so. According to my own experience in the media production business the most important factors for choosing a platform are reliability, performance and durability of hardware, software and peripherals. And it certainly is not a disadvantage if user interfaces and hardware exterior are pleasing to the eye and easy to use.

In my opinion, Windows and the hardware used to run it have nothing to offer here, except maybe a lower purchase price (but better not think about total cost of ownership). It’s a nice system for tweaking and guys in love with their soldering irons, but not for productive work within tight time schedules.

Werner.

[Tim]

Dave,

that’s also my opinion. Don’t understand why Tim bashes Apple that often. If Apple hard- and software really was that bad, I wonder why in nearly all audio recording studios Apple stuff is used.

Werner.
They are just not for me Werner, I'm a little different to the average Windows user as I build, tinker and experiment with computers - goes with my job. But you cannot do that with MAC's. My Apple 'bashing' as you call it, is normally in response to people telling my how wonderful they are and the superior attitude some of their owners and the company has (not necessarily anyone here), it's like a religious cult which I refuse to buy into it. And again, I'm not referring to anyone here, but a lot of Apple owners feel the need to constantly tell you how you must have a MAC or iPhone and sneer 'what's wrong with you' if you don't agree - that behaviour I can never understand :scratch:

I also find the obsessive behaviour of many iPhone users quite disturbing, they just cannot do anything or go anywhere without their iPhone in their hands and can become quite rude, whilst immersed in their prepossessed world. Apple and their 'must have' products IMO have changed human behaviour more than any other modern company and I'm just not comfortable with that. A Windows PC is a functional inanimate object that meets many needs, it's a tool.... Apple make things people covet and they exploit that to the max and that kind of ethos I object to and always will.

I'm a dinosaur I guess, so just ignore me :wheniwasaboy:

Anyway, I'm off to watch the Grand Prix

:cool:

[Werner Berghofer]

Tim,


I build, tinker and experiment with computers […] But you cannot do that with MAC's

no, you can do that too with Macs, but why, what for? Macs are built to create and – yes – consume content in an easy and pleasing way. Are you aware that also in science, research and development Macs are more often used than other computers?


Apple and their 'must have' products IMO have changed human behaviour more than any other modern company and I'm just not comfortable with that

I fully understand what you try to say, and believe me, I share most of your feelings and expressions. But don’t forget: this is valid for Apple’s consumer products, but not for the reliable and valuable media production workhorses Apple successfully is producing since the late 1980’s.

Nobody is being forced to purchase Apple products. Is Apple to blame for people liking and buying their products?

Werner.

[Tim]

Best agree to disagree I think Werner ;)

I'm happy being 'a PC' as you are happy being an Applehead. It won't matter whatever argument is put forward in support of Apple, as I will never like the company and I'm a stubborn old cuss who will often bite my nose off to spite my own face :mental:

[Werner Berghofer]

Tim,


Best agree to disagree I think Werner ;)

agree. Piece, brotha!


I'm a stubborn old cuss

Guess I’m older than you. I first got in touch with electronic data processing in 1979 (was 23 years old at that time). When did you start?

Werner.

[dave2010]

Werner

I think I'm with you on this, and it seems I'm even older.

I work somewhere where they have lots of Macs and PCs. Many of the Macs will also run Windows XP. In an environment where there's really quite good technical support many of the problems which home users face are dealt with by the tecchies, but even so even they are not generally willing to "upgrade" to the latest version of Windows. Further, since they have so many machines, if something goes wrong, they either bin the machine, or re-initialise it with images stored on a server.

Home users are generally unable to adopt this approach to support, and I have found that maintaining Windows PCs in a home environment is akin to shooting your left foot off on Monday, with a likelihood that you'll shoot the right one off by Wednesday.

There are some good programs for PCs, and many gamers will perhaps prefer them, but they may know how to tame the beasts - the computers, that is.

I have worked with Macs, PCs and even Unix and Linux systems for many years, and I was sceptical of the claims of some of my colleagues who supported Macs in the early parts of this century. I'd had a Mac laptop before, which I liked at the time (it still goes, I think), but I was well aware of the problems which the Mac OS 8 and 9 systems were capable of delivering.

When I switched back to Macs for personal use a couple of years back, many of the problems which I regularly experienced with PCs just disappeared - apart from residual issues with other machines we still have. Sure, there are some problems with Macs, but mostly they just work, and the software is OK.

It's rather like having a car and being able to drive it and go places, rather than having to service it extensively every time one wants to go out. Some people enjoy fixing cars [I've got an old one which needs attention right now] while others just want them to go. Most people who use computers now should be in the latter mode.

[dave2010]

Hopefully a simple one this. I thought I'd try to find out more about tagging, and how to do it better. Now I've managed to get quite a number of CDs accessible, but actually managing them is turning out to be a bit of a pain.

I'm currently using iTunes + Squeezebox server, with Squeezepad to control the music. The limitations of tagging, as I have it now, are starting to become obvious. A lot of music doesn't appear under the "right" place(s). This must have been dealt with elsewhere - but I'll come back to this.

I thought I'd try MusicBrainz, since it was suggested earlier. I've downloaded it to my iMac (Snow Leopard). Doesn't work with CDs though, as when I put in a CD iTunes intercepts the CD before MusicBrainz Picard can get its hands on it. Even closing down iTunes does not allow MusicBrainz to get to work. The CD icon in MusicBrainz does not go bold - to allow me to click on it.

I'm hoping that I may discover rather better and useful tagging than that from the Gracenote db, but I may not.

Any suggestions?

Also, what may seem a stupid question - "are the tags stored in with the music file, or in other auxiliary files?" I don't know how tags are stored. If they're in the file, then does it make a difference which OS (Windows, Mac, Linux etc) is used, or is this only application dependent? If the latter, are there standards for different library systems, so that tags will work if the music files are moved across systems?

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


Any suggestions?

although this certainly may be a major pain in the rear, I prefer manual tagging. I’m very picky regarding the way titles are spelled and written, and because I’m a typographer I hate so see the very common wrong usage of ' (minute sign) and ’ (apostrophe). Since no online music title database corresponds to my requirements, I choose the manual route instead.


are the tags stored in with the music file, or in other auxiliary files?

Except for WAV files all other tags and cover art graphics are stored in the music file; the WAV format does not support tagging. Tags and cover art graphics travel without problems across various platforms and devices.

Werner.

[Stratmangler]

Why not correct the tags that iTunes pulls in before you start ripping ?
I hate iTunes and its interface with a vengeance, but it is possible to correct things first.
Don't forget to set iTunes to rip securely ;)

[dave2010]

Dave,

Except for WAV files all other tags and cover art graphics are stored in the music file; the WAV format does not support tagging. Tags and cover art graphics travel without problems across various platforms and devices.
Werner

Seems crazy to me to have potentially large volumes of data embedded in music or video files. It'd make more sense to have tag-links which could be linked to external databases. For example, I'd like to see CD notes, which some companies (e.g Chandos) provide, but it might not make sense to have these in metadata fields. Of course it does make a difference where and how the metadata is used. In the context of a CD, if the CD notes are put in the metadata associated with an album, then this should only be a relatively small amount of extra data. If the notes are associated with every track, then there would be significant duplication. Metadata might also be used for streaming services, in which case it would need to be sent fairly frequently to be useful, but preferably kept brief enough so as not to interfere with the music or video.

Re WAV files, I thought they could be tagged, though aren't perhaps normally. I remember a few years ago a work colleague, saying he'd ripped some CDs to MP3 - perhaps for a party, but then found later that the WAV files which he managed to associate later also picked up the tags. He was surprised that this happened, but once he noticed it, found it useful. Maybe I misremembered his story, but I think that is what happened.

This forum also has a discussion about WAV tags - this posting, and the later ones - http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showpost.php?p=81189&postcount=9

Re different formats, do the tags get recoded when moving (say) from mp3 to aac, or have the different formats been converging to similar standards, so that the metadata can simply be copied (with the format fields modified if there are any) when doing a format conversion?

[sburrell]

Album artwork added automatically by iTunes is stored in a cache file and not embedded into the file. To embed the artwork, delete the automatically downloaded one and add your own artwork manually.

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


Seems crazy to me to have potentially large volumes of data embedded in music or video files.

compared to the average overall size of a lossless audio file, the additional size of tags and cover art with dimensions of 1000 × 1000 pixels is peanuts :-)


It'd make more sense to have tag-links which could be linked to external databases.

Of course it would, but on the other hand I fear this would tremendously complicate the process of moving audio files between different computers and audio devices.


Re WAV files, I thought they could be tagged

Well yes, WAV files can be tagged, but the metadata is not embedded in the audio file itself, but stored in various supplemental library files which reside locally on the computer. Therefore metadata usually is lost if copying the WAV file to another computer or device. Please check Computer Audiophile’s thread WAV file tagging and artwork in iTunes (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/WAV-file-tagging-and-artwork-iTunes-Guide) for detailled information.

Werner.

[Werner Berghofer]

Simon,


Album artwork added automatically by iTunes is stored in a cache file and not embedded into the file.

this is quite true, thank you for pointing this out. Since I usually prefer to add the tags myself, I forgot to mention that I also disabled the iTunes option for automatic download of cover art files. These images are always added manually by myself, becaue I prefer larger dimensions than the usual 300 × 300 pixels added by iTunes.

Werner.

[dave2010]

Werner

Thanks for a very helpful reply


compared to the average overall size of a lossless audio file, the additional size of tags and cover art with dimensions of 1000 × 1000 pixels is peanuts :-)
Probably, and for a one off it is OK, where the metadata is filtered out by the server. I thought that sometimes the metadata is used for streaming purposes, and that might not be so good if this gets mixed in with the communications stream. There are many posts on these boards extolling the virtues of more precise timing in the communications, and the benefits of shaving away a few pico-seconds of jitter. :)



Of course it would, but on the other hand I fear this would tremendously complicate the process of moving audio files between different computers and audio devices.
It would not be unreasonable to have some data stored externally. For example:

tag: CD-Notes = "http://www.recordcompany.com/Sibelius/RC5044.pdf"
would be a short tag indicating that the record company notes in pdf form are available at the specificed URL.

tags: Composer-Note-1 = "http://www.wikipedia.com/Beethoven"
Composer-Note-2 = "http://www.wikipedia.com/Brahms"

etc.

I don't know enough about tags - I assume that they can't be parameterised - which "might" be even more flexible, eg.

tags: Composer-Note ("Beethoven") = "http://www.wikipedia.com/Beethoven"
Composer-Note ("Brahms") = "http://www.wikipedia.com/Brahms"
Personal-note("Proms") = "http://www.myblog.com/Proms2011"

Some pattern matching systems can work with that kind of data.

Doesn't actually seem too complicated to me.



Well yes, WAV files can be tagged, but the metadata is not embedded in the audio file itself, but stored in various supplemental library files which reside locally on the computer. Therefore metadata usually is lost if copying the WAV file to another computer or device. Please check Computer Audiophile’s thread WAV file tagging and artwork in iTunes (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/WAV-file-tagging-and-artwork-iTunes-Guide) for detailled information.

Thanks for the clarification re WAV files and external data.

[webby]

I don't really see the point in having a composer note link to a wiki page for the composer. I can access the wiki pages for a given album, artist or composer with a few clicks. You're not browsing whilst playing back music are you? :eek:

The tags that are probably most incorrect from database lookups are genre and composer info, but I don't really use either for browsing.

For correcting tag case and other minor tag errors there are a number of helpful scripts at dougs applescripts.

Again, I recommend XLD for ripping. Have you looked it up Dave? I've mentioned it a number of times now. I don't have too many problems with tagging. Nothing that a title case script can't fix.

As per Werner, I also add album art manually. This is usually sourced from album art exchange. Plenty of high quality art there. Do it as you go and it takes about 30 secs.

[webby]

You could download something like Alfred and use search templates. For example, activate Alfred, type wiki, space, type Beethoven, enter, will open up the wiki page for Beethoven. All without touching the browser.

I do the same to get artwork: aae, bob dylan, opens up the album art exchange page for bob Dylan.

Personally, I use launchbar but I'm just looking at switching to Alfred which is free, or you can use it with an addon which costs £12.

Werner, do you use any utilities like this?

Note: there are actually some scripts at dougs applescripts that will search wiki, and others, based on the artist now playing, or selected.

[Werner Berghofer]

Lee,


Personally, I use launchbar […] Werner, do you use any utilities like this?

I used to be a launchbar user, but that was back in the days of Mac OS 9. Nowadays I think launchbar isn’t needed anymore, because Spotlight offers very similar features – it even cloned the launchbar keyboard shortcut cmd+spacebar.

There a tons of useful and smart utilities available for Mac OS X, but I’m an old fashioned guy with roots back in Assembler programming, so I’m used to do many things manually. I use Macs just because they are beautiful and the ladies think I must be rich ;-)

Werner.

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


I thought that sometimes the metadata is used for streaming purposes, and that might not be so good if this gets mixed in with the communications stream.

I’m pretty sure the metadata section is clearly separated from the audio section in the audio file, and this separation also will be honoured by the file transper protocol used for streaming.


There are many posts on these boards extolling the virtues of more precise timing in the communications, and the benefits of shaving away a few pico-seconds of jitter.

I know, but there are also many posts dealing with equipment burn-in and folks claiming to hear differences between 44.1 KHz/16 bit and 192 KHz/24 bit audio files. One must not believe everything which can be found on the Internet ;-)

Werner.

[dave2010]

Lee



The tags that are probably most incorrect from database lookups are genre and composer info, but I don't really use either for browsing.
So how do you get to your music? Do you do it via folders?

I'm already at the point where navigating to the right files is becoming a problem, particularly via the iPad Squeezepad interface. Maybe iPeng would be easier - though I suspect there's not much in it.

It might actually be easier to do the navigation via folders and using aliases - not sure though. I'd probably need a real machine (e.g Mac mini, or Macbook Air) to do that.

Still - live music tonight - must go - Prom 33, Sibelius, Grieg, Nielsen.

[webby]

Lee

So how do you get to your music? Do you do it via folders?

I'm already at the point where navigating to the right files is becoming a problem, particularly via the iPad Squeezepad interface. Maybe iPeng would be easier - though I suspect there's not much in it.

It might actually be easier to do the navigation via folders and using aliases - not sure though. I'd probably need a real machine (e.g Mac mini, or Macbook Air) to do that.

Still - live music tonight - must go - Prom 33, Sibelius, Grieg, Nielsen.

I use iTunes if I'm at my mac, or the apple remote app on the iPad. This accesses my itunes library and displays album art and playlists etc. Other remote apps are available.

People can slate iTunes for whatever reason and yes, I feel it's a little bloated now (I'd prefer it if it was just a music player) but I like the user interface and the visual aspect of the album art.

So yeah, I let iTunes handle my music files and the playback of them. I can't be bothered, and haven't got the time, to faff about with a folder structure and separate playback software.

Enjoy the concert!

[webby]

There's a good run down on using XLD here: http://www.digitalvertigo.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=26740

[dave2010]

Lee

I actually downloaded and ran xLD yesterday. I really wanted to find a way of splitting a music file into manageable chunks. I need to figure out whether I can make up suitable cue sheets, or whether i need another (yet another!) editing tool.

[Werner Berghofer]

Lee,


There's a good run down on using XLD here

XLD is claimed to be superior with problematic CDs, but the files it produces are identical to the iTunes rips. Computer Audiophile → Benefits of ripping with XLD versus iTunes (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Benefits-Ripping-XLD-versus-iTunes).


In large part, the benefit from using XLD’s ripping software (as compared to iTunes) could be labeled 'peace of mind'.

Normally I also use XLD, but when I get annoyed by its slow ripping speed I switch to iTunes. Even with correction of CD read errors enabled, the ripping process in iTunes is much faster. The CDs I rip usually are trouble-free, since this is the first I do after the Amazon package has arrived in my home. With XLD I also noticed that the masking of certain characters which may be problematic in Mac OS X filenames (for example the colon, the forward slash or the apostrophe) does not work reliably all the time. In this respect, no version of iTunes has been causing troubles yet; these characters are replaced by an underscore in the filename.

Like you I’m happy with the iTunes user interface and wouldn’t bother switching to another audio playback software.

Werner.

[webby]

Lee

I actually downloaded and ran xLD yesterday. I really wanted to find a way of splitting a music file into manageable chunks. I need to figure out whether I can make up suitable cue sheets, or whether i need another (yet another!) editing tool.

Oh I see, for long concert pieces and such?

[webby]

XLD is claimed to be superior with problematic CDs, but the files it produces are identical to the iTunes rips. Computer Audiophile → Benefits of ripping with XLD versus iTunes (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Benefits-Ripping-XLD-versus-iTunes).

Like you I’m happy with the iTunes user interface and wouldn’t bother switching to another audio playback software.

Werner.
Well that was a couple of years ago, and the developer is often releasing updates. The latest version has a XLD Ripper option. In truth, I mainly use it for the accurate rip peace of mind, and the log reports, which iTunes doesn't produce.

I may run a rip speed test to check iTunes vs XLD actually.

[Werner Berghofer]

Lee,


Well that was a couple of years ago

better make that a couple of days ago :-) Last Saturday evening I cancelled XLD ripping a perfectly clean and scratchless audio CD and used iTunes instead to rip the disc. This was the most recent version of XLD, labelled 20110703 (135.1), on my 17" MacBook Pro 2.66 GHz Intel Core i7 with 4 GB of RAM, and there were also the filename troubles I mentioned in my earlier post.

Werner.

[webby]

Lee,



better make that a couple of days ago :-) Last Saturday evening I cancelled XLD ripping a perfectly clean and scratchless audio CD and used iTunes instead to rip the disc. This was the most recent version of XLD, labelled 20110703 (135.1), on my 17" MacBook Pro 2.66 GHz Intel Core i7 with 4 GB of RAM, and there were also the filename troubles I mentioned in my earlier post.

Werner.
Hmmm, I meant link. That was written in 2009.

Re your comments: interesting. As I say, I will test.

[dave2010]

Oh I see, for long concert pieces and such?

Mmmm. Maybe. How about files around 1.5 Gbytes, perhaps containing 9 or more hours of flac encoded music!

[Reid Malenfant]

Mmmm. Maybe. How about files around 1.5 Gbytes, perhaps containing 9 or more hours of flac encoded music!
Can't you burn it to a DVDr? 4.7Gb single sided, plenty of room.. Cheap to :eyebrows:

Nero should do it :)

[webby]

Mmmm. Maybe. How about files around 1.5 Gbytes, perhaps containing 9 or more hours of flac encoded music!
What do you want to do with it?

You've got FLAC files that you want to convert to ALAC? Is that it?

[dave2010]

Mark
Can't you burn it to a DVDr? 4.7Gb single sided, plenty of room.. Cheap to

Nero should do itNo - sorrry, that's not what I want to do.

Lee - as above - not what I want to do.
What do you want to do with it?

You've got FLAC files that you want to convert to ALAC? Is that it?
The files are large, so I want to split them into convenient units. I want an editor or splitter which will cope with large FLAC (or ALAC - since I can convert to that format if needed) files.

I've just been looking again at Audacity, and tried using the 1.3 Beta and ffmpeg tool (Mac OS version), but it didn't look hopeful. Either it wasn't working, or was going to take most of the day just to load up.

A few things occur to me.

One, which might work if I can find the right tools. Are there general file splitting tools which can split any file? I'm sure there are.
Then obviously the end (and perhaps also the beginning) of a file created that way may not be in "good" FLAC or ALAC format, but despite that it may then be possible to edit the files using some editors. Depends how robust or picky such editor tools are about beginning and ends of data files.

Another option, since I'm using a Mac, is simply to go back to WAV, and then edit from there. The files might be very large, but I think the Mac file system should cope. It might be a bit slow, but I've seen xACT convert some of these files to WAV as an intermediate process, and that didn't take too long. Some/many Windows systems would not do this, because of constraints on file sizes.

I'm not sure how good Audacity is for large files. Although my experience of Audacity is that in many ways it is excellent, it normally generates a massive number of modest (typically 1 Mbyte) temporary/project files, and this can slow some operations down very considerably. It works very well for audio files less than one hour or so.

[webby]

The files are large, so I want to split them into convenient units. I want an editor or splitter which will cope with large FLAC (or ALAC - since I can convert to that format if needed) files.



Sorry Dave, I'm a little confused cos I don't have all the info.

Are you saying you have FLAC files that are, say, 50 mins long, and that you want to add 'chapters' for want of a better word, to break them into smaller parts?

Is this to aid navigation, or playback, so that you can skip to a particular section?

If so, you can actually do this in iTunes, but it is a little convoluted, but if you were only doing it a few times or so it wouldn't be too bad.

[dave2010]

Sorry Dave, I'm a little confused cos I don't have all the info.

Are you saying you have FLAC files that are, say, 50 mins long, and that you want to add 'chapters' for want of a better word, to break them into smaller parts?

Is this to aid navigation, or playback, so that you can skip to a particular section?

If so, you can actually do this in iTunes, but it is a little convoluted, but if you were only doing it a few times or so it wouldn't be too bad.Lee

Sorry - very long delay between your post and this reply! Work and other things have been distracting me.

Actually the FLAC files could be several hours long, which is part of the problem. I have some which are a few hours long, and I've tried (and failed) to generate files which would have been perhaps 10 hours long. The reason is that I have tried to record unattended, when I might have been out for at least five hours. I didn't particularly want to do this, but it seemed the only way to (try to) get the material, not having software which could be configured and scheduled to turn on/off at the appropriate times.

It's not immediately high priority, though it would be good to know how to split long FLAC or ALAC files - preferably without having to spend a lot on software. I always try free software first!

It wouldn't be necessary to do this too often, though I'd hope it wouldn't take more than (say) 15 mins per large file, or maybe it could be done as a batch process so that I wouldn't have to monitor it.

[webby]

Dave, may I ask how the recording is done in the first place? Is it an Internet radio recording? If so what software do you use to record?

[dave2010]

Latest problem is with ripping with iTunes on a Mac. Twice in the last few days I've had CDs which wouldn't rip well at all - the sounds produced are truly abominable.

I suspected my CD drive, but actually it does seem a bit random. The two CDs which have failed to rip properly are both from magazines. One is of Bruckner 3rd Symphony, from the BBC Music Magazine, while the other is of Mahler's 1st Symphony, from the Classic FM Magazine (which is very good, btw, and a bargain at under £5 - Horenstein and the LSO). These CDs play in CD players, but won't rip on the Apple. I thought this fault was going to go hard, but when I put in a couple of EMI CDs bought in a charity shop, they went in without a murmur - and the results are good.

Maybe the freebie magazine CDs really aren't made on such good plastics.

[Stratmangler]

Latest problem is with ripping with iTunes on a Mac. Twice in the last few days I've had CDs which wouldn't rip well at all - the sounds produced are truly abominable.

I suspected my CD drive, but actually it does seem a bit random. The two CDs which have failed to rip properly are both from magazines. One is of Bruckner 3rd Symphony, from the BBC Music Magazine, while the other is of Mahler's 1st Symphony, from the Classic FM Magazine (which is very good, btw, and a bargain at under £5 - Horenstein and the LSO). These CDs play in CD players, but won't rip on the Apple. I thought this fault was going to go hard, but when I put in a couple of EMI CDs bought in a charity shop, they went in without a murmur - and the results are good.

Maybe the freebie magazine CDs really aren't made on such good plastics.

I'd almost bet cash that the format of the discs that do not rip properly is non standard.

[dave2010]

I'd almost bet cash that the format of the discs that do not rip properly is non standard.Chris

You may be right. I've now checked these discs on a different machine. They don't rip in iTunes on that either, so probably not a hardware issue at all.

Total pain though. I think there's a route using EAC on PCs - which might give acceptable results, but I hate having to turn a PC on, and then I've got to transfer the data back to Mac OS anyway. I tried EAC and got one track converted, but it was a slow business. The sound quality seemed OK.

I tried Foobar, but although the results were better than the Mac rips, the overall sound was still dreadful when I put the files back on to Mac OS X. Sounded like overload distortion on loud passages, and both of the CDs mentioned have quite a few of those.

I still wonder if something significant has changed in iTunes recently (Mac OS version).

I shall now investigate other ways of ripping on the Macs, to avoid having to have anything to do with PCs (though currently typing this on a PC laptop). Max and XLD maybe?

[webby]

I've lost track of how often I've mentioned XLD. I'm not saying it'll work, but it deserves a chance.

[Lodgesound]

Try Exact Audio Copy (EAC).

Very quick and accurate (and free) - it will even compare extracted errors with an online database to varify data transfers. Needless to say it puts in all track titles and artists etc..

Also try ripping to WAV files - using FLAC is all well and good but you actually save very little in terms of space and in any case harddrives of large capacity are so cheap now. Couple this with the fact that WAV's are what the industry uses and can be relatively easily track marked in software as they are completely uncompressed.

[Stratmangler]

Chris

You may be right. I've now checked these discs on a different machine. They don't rip in iTunes on that either, so probably not a hardware issue at all.

Total pain though. I think there's a route using EAC on PCs - which might give acceptable results, but I hate having to turn a PC on, and then I've got to transfer the data back to Mac OS anyway. I tried EAC and got one track converted, but it was a slow business. The sound quality seemed OK.

I tried Foobar, but although the results were better than the Mac rips, the overall sound was still dreadful when I put the files back on to Mac OS X. Sounded like overload distortion on loud passages, and both of the CDs mentioned have quite a few of those.

I still wonder if something significant has changed in iTunes recently (Mac OS version).

I shall now investigate other ways of ripping on the Macs, to avoid having to have anything to do with PCs (though currently typing this on a PC laptop). Max and XLD maybe?

Have you tried exploring the discs?
I remember that the Prince freebie a couple of years had something like 99 tracks on it, most of 'em being silence, and a few at the beginning containing the actual music files.

http://cdn.thatgrapejuice.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/prince20.jpg

[dave2010]

I've encountered yet more discs which won't rip properly on Macs using iTunes, and it is repeatable across different machines. Someone else who has been "on the case" has detected that in some cases these are CDs which have pre-emphasis, though apparently in theory iTunes should be able to deal with these.

As yet this hasn't been singled out as the reason, or even the only reason, but it does seem that some CDs will almost certainly cause problems for iTunes rips.

One example is this CD set from Brilliant, which originates from BIS - http://www.selections.com/AH736/martinu-symphonies-1-6-3cds/?searchtext=Martinu (Amazon have this too, but this supplier sometimes has very low prices). From this set, the first two discs will not rip acceptably, but disc three, which has Symphonies 5 and 6 will. It'd be interesting to know if the original BIS set also has this problem.

Although issues might be due to the CD material, this seems unlikely. In this case it's probable that all the CDs are physically made using the same materials, so it's a coding issue. One possibility is that because of licensing issues Brilliant has deliberately put some form of spoiling code into the data, to prevent the disc from being copied, but it seems unlikely, as anyone who really wanted this would copy from the BIS discs. I'm not sure if I can check this, or find a copy of a BIS original disc to check, though I do have other BIS discs, and it might be that the problems are associated with them.

BIS discs often have a pretty amazing dynamic range, so that might have something to do with it - maybe they always use pre-emphasis and/or other techniques. For example, could they have used HDCD plus pre-emphasis? I don't know if that's actually possible - maybe HDCD does that anyway.

I don't know an easy way to check for pre-emphasis or special formats when a CD is put into a computer drive. I think possibly dBPoweramp might do this, but as it's a Windows program I'm not over keen to use that. Maybe there are Mac programs which can check formats?

[dave2010]

Maybe this post elsewhere will have some effect - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3472347 or not, as the case may be!

[bobbasrah]

Dave, totally off the wall but I remember something about splitting Flac files, vaguely in Bonk or something similar.... Sorry, hazy response but will root around as something is sounding familiar...
So far as Mac issues, sorry mate no help from here...

[dave2010]

Maybe this post elsewhere will have some effect - https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3472347 or not, as the case may be!
Prompted by someone else who's also noticed problems using iTunes on some CDs, I can now report that almost every other player - eg. VLC, Songbird, Cog and even Apple's own Quicktime can play these difficult CDs without making a complete scrambled mess of them.

For ripping, Songbird manages rather well, but it only supports Ogg and Flac I think.

Am I imagining it, or does Cog do a better job than most for playback?

As I've been reporting, iTunes 10.5 does seem to be the major culprit re the poor sound from some CDs. Apple need to get this fixed PDQ, before someone sues them for damage to their hearing!

[dave2010]

I noticed reports that iTunes 10.5.1 is now available. I also read that this does not fix the ripping/playing problem with some CDs. I can confirm that this is indeed the case. It would still not play/rip CD2 of my set of Alfven symphonies with Neeme Järvi (Brilliant 8974). If anyone has managed to not update to iTunes 10.5, I'd suggest that they restrain themselves, as iTunes 10.5 and 10.5.1 still seem to have some quite significant problems - at least regarding some discs.

Stick with what you've got already if it works for you, and don't attempt the "upgrade" to 10.5.n yet.

If you've already got 10.5, then you might not notice any significant differences in "upgrading" to 10.5.1, though it depends what matters to you. If you have problems with playing the problems are likely to carry through to the latest version.

I did also have some problems trying to install 10.5.1, though I overcame these by going and fetching a new .dmg installation package - as if I'd installed iTunes for the first time, from the Apple web site. It does seem that Apple have screwed up somewhat with iTunes 10.5.

From now on I intend to keep copies of installation files so that I can revert back to earlier versions if I need to. Unfortunately I'm not sure that I have access to 10.4 or earlier .dmg files right now, though it's not a total disaster, because even allowing for the problems, the program does do more than 90% of the rips apparently OK.

[bennyboyph]

dbpoweramp in secure mode with c2 pointers.

[WAD62]

dbpoweramp in secure mode with c2 pointers.

+1 :cool:

[Smoker]

my own personal view regarding this is down to money, I dont believe mac's are worth the money in my situation. both macs and pc's are often badly designed in terms of heat management, basically put i'd never waste money on a ready built mac or a ready built pc. I built my own and much better it is too!

the greater the load the greater the heat and these puppies both macs and pc's are guilty. better design in the casing and components would be a better foundation for any computer that is used for serious applications.

I dont pass judgement on other peoples preferences based on what they can afford but just wanted to point a few things out. yes itunes on the pc is crap and on the mac it runs as it should. I put it down to bad programming! if i reboot my computer and select my snow leopard drive my quad core pc boots and runs itunes just fine and any other application with the smoothness of any high end mac. ive spread my set up across both os's with any design/music related apps done in snow leopard with gaming/ripping etc using windows 7. same pc, just built to spec to carry a heavy load.

I use macdrive to have access to any osx drive while in windows 7, both systems are great in my opinion.

[webby]

Dave, re your last post: I don't believe that it is as easy as that to revert back to older versions of iTunes. Be very careful what you do. Google it and you'll find many reasons not to bother.