What defines a good tonearm?

[Neil McCauley]

I’m thinking here of the engineering design and execution rather than anything else.

The arm that gave the most musical enjoyment was the Breuer-8 Dynamic. After that the SME IV. The Ittok with any Dynavector was magnificent. Sonically the most disappointing were the cheap and shoddy uni-pivots of the 1980s. But I suspect that it was their appalling fit ‘n finish that precluded me from giving them a fair hearing. Yes I would agree that for midrange neutrality, air-bearing arms such as the Air Tangent are probably unequalled. And yet I remain intrigued and curious.

Why can't all of the best attributes be combined in one design?

What really are the technical limitations?

Why is it that any ball-race arm can’t (in my experience) give the neutrality of the air-bearing?

Why is the air-bearing type somewhat, to my ears, weak at the extremes?

How can it be that a 40 year-old design like the Breuer, devoid of fancy magnesium castings and so on deliver a level of dynamic, speed and attack that can be breathtaking?

I say all this in the knowledge that although trained at UMIST as a mechanical engineer, I truly have no idea. So over to you gang.

Thanks and regards

Howard

[hifi_dave]

As someone who has set up and sold countless thousands of tonearms, I would suggest a good tonearm should be straightforward to set up, stays set up and doesn't fall to bits in use.

Anything more than that is a bonus..:)

[Rare Bird]

Sonically the most disappointing were the cheap and shoddy uni-pivots of the 1980s. But I suspect that it was their appalling fit ‘n finish that precluded me from giving them a fair hearing.



For example??

[Neil McCauley]

As someone who has set up and sold countless thousands of tonearms, I would suggest a good tonearm should be straightforward to set up, stays set up and doesn't fall to bits in use.

Anything more than that is a bonus..:)

Indeed. But in terms of the potential for innovative engineering design principles, regretfully I'm no further forward. But thank you

[Neil McCauley]

For example??

To respond would deflect the direction of the thread. I have no interest in considering the failings of historic models simply because there's nothing worthwhile to be done.

Consideration of past failures and the brands that represented this is an irrelevance to me these days.

My interest, and the catalyst for this thread - is the potential for future engineering developments. Nothing more than this. Thank you.

[hifi_dave]

Indeed. But in terms of the engineering design principles, regretfully I'm no further forward. But thank you

I deliberately avoided that as it's a matter of opinion. I have used unipivot, fixed bearing, knife edge etc arms and all have their good points and some have their failings. I don't think you can say that the best arm is 'so and so' or that the best arms are unipivot or fixed bearings etc.

[Neil McCauley]

I deliberately avoided that as it's a matter of opinion. I have used unipivot, fixed bearing, knife edge etc arms and all have their good points and some have their failings. I don't think you can say that the best arm is 'so and so' or that the best arms are unipivot or fixed bearings etc.

Indeed. Indeed. what puzzles me though is this.

Q1: Why is it not possible in one design to combine the most musically credible aspects of each individual type?

Q2: What really are the engineering obstacles?

Q3: Might it be that the materials play a more important role than the bearing design?

Q4: How to separate conjecture from fact?

[Rare Bird]

To respond would deflect the direction of the thread. I have no interest in considering the failings of historic models simply because there's nothing worthwhile to be done.

Consideration of past failures and the brands that represented this is an irrelevance to me these days.

My interest, and the catalyst for this thread - is the potential for future engineering developments. Nothing more than this. Thank you.

Not really an answer to my question, i was just wondering what you though were the shoddy Uni's of the 80's?

[Neil McCauley]

Not really an answer to my question, i was just wondering what you though were the shoddy Uni's of the 80's?

Andre - I want to make this unambiguously clear I'm not going to be drawn into such a debate. Simply that.

It is irrelevant to the point in question.

I hope you’ll forgive me if from now on I’ll decline to answer any similar questions from you or anyone else about identifying shoddy workmanship from a quarter of a century ago.

Okay?

Thank you.

PS

Why not start a thread of your own entitled 'What really were the worst uni-pivots of the 1980s' ? Or perhaps "Which arm makers really took the piss in the 1980s - and got away with it?"

[hifi_dave]

Indeed. Indeed. what puzzles me though is this.

Q1: Why is it not possible in one design to combine the most musically credible aspects of each individual type?

Q2: What really are the engineering obstacles?

Q3: Might it be that the materials play a more important role than the bearing design?

Q4: How to separate conjecture from fact?

You've left out the choice of wiring, which I find is as important as the design and engineering.

[Neil McCauley]

You've left out the choice of wiring, which I find is as important as the design and engineering.

Yes. Quite correct. An oversight on my part. Thanks for pointing this out. Do you have a view re wiring that you might want to share?

[nat8808]

If you take as red that Arthur Kerbrou... Arthur K's F.XR II is a magnificent arm (as has been reported in the press and many forum goers also enthusing about it) then it's mostly down to how the arm flexes.

After all, it uses most of a Rega RB250 even if the bearings are uprated from the basic model (Johnny from Audio Origami will tell you, IIRC, that once you have good enough race bearings gains don't really come from improving on them still) and all the rest is down to the stiffening of the armtube..

There are a couple of people making air-bearing arms from home that are supposed to be very very good (and especially for the price) too.

Often though people choose one path for the basic design and then revert to older designs for the rest of it e.g those airbearing arms I mention then just use knife bearings for up/down movement because they're easy to make, The FF F.XR uses common race bearings etc again with just the one innovation in the whole design.

Perhaps for marketing purposes (or just pride of your new design) having too many innovations at once just ends up watering down your USPs? You want your main innovation to stand out..

Then again, maybe it's all in the detail - Audio Origami's PU7s have received great reviews and glowing comparisons to many of the well established arms by both reviewers and users alike and yet it's really just a refining of an old design, the Syrinx PU3.

Out of interest, did the Sumiko 'The Arm' ever come close to the Breuer Howard? I've a tatty one myself and was thinking of a home brew Arthur K style modification to stiffen and undamp the tube, see what happens.. One of the smoothest and freest movements I've ever experienced with its ball race and cone bearings.

[Rare Bird]

Mayware - Formula 4 uni & Mission original '774' are my all time favs. Not the slightest intrest in Mid to high mass arms

[Neil McCauley]

Out of interest, did the Sumiko 'The Arm' ever come close to the Breuer Howard? I've a tatty one myself and was thinking of a home brew Arthur K style modification to stiffen and undamp the tube, see what happens.. One of the smoothest and freest movements I've ever experienced with its ball race and cone bearings.

A VERY interesting question Nat. Thank you. Also known as the MDC-800, yes I sold many of these when I could get them. Sumiko stopped making them when they became the US SME importers. I very much doubt if SME put pressure on them. They just didn’t behave like that. Sumiko probably reasoned that it would be hard to sell two alternative ‘best arms in the World’.

In answer to your question, frankly no. Close but not quite. In isolation, it was and no doubt remains a very musically credible arm. But side by side comparison on two Pink triangle turntables using consecutively numbered VDH MC1 cartridges through the Meridian ‘Zebra’ modular preamp into the 3-driver version of the Meridian M1s demonstrated not only a difference but the superiority in neutrality of the Breuer. Hope this helps.

Regards

Howard

[nat8808]

Thanks for that - always wondered but of course rare to find anyone who's heard both let alone anyone who's actually compared them so thoroughly!

Always hard to find Breuers though.. my search continues.

[Neil McCauley]

Thanks for that - always wondered but of course rare to find anyone who's heard both let alone anyone who's actually compared them so thoroughly!

Always hard to find Breuers though.. my search continues.

Expect to pay circa £2k for a black or brass one. These cannot / will not be serviced by Herr Breuer BUT my pal Werner who is the senior engineer at Brinkmann might. Bearing are very fragile (jewellers precious stones I think) and are not DIY adjustable. The stones can shatter through incautious adjustment.

[DSJR]

I think the uni-pivots referred to from the 80's are the tatty old hadcocks, which fell to bits even before being set up :lol: I only mention these old relics because the arm is still being made in one form or another and in actual fact, once the oldies were properly assembled, they sounded excellent on the early LP12, Thorens 160 and Systemdek - imo of course. The lightweight Mayware arms were wonderful for ADC's and Sonus Blue cartridges, but not good with much else I found. I believe there was a massier later version which may still be in production and of course the Roksan Nima seems to borrow a heck of a lot from the Mayware ideals - in appearance certainly..

The Mission 774 Andr'e was a good idea, but let down by terrible quality control and awful tacky finish on most of them. By the time they'd tidied the thing up, the heavy exit wires all but precluded satisfactory use on the fruitbox and immediate competition, so it lost favour and faded away to be replaced by the mechanic and Jelco made? cheaper arm they did...

My two favourites at the moment, for what it's worth, are the sadly departed Alphason HR100S, which was WAY before it's time I reckon. Wonderful with "difficult" MC types, I suspect an ADC XLM would also have worked well at the other end of the compliance scale. It certainly sounds fantastic with a "podded" Decca. The other arm is the NAS AceSpace arm, which combines unipivot theory and has stabilisers (like the old Stax UA7 had) to make handling easier. I don't think it's too silly money either, unlike the better looking but hopelessly over-priced (IMO) Naim ARO. Tom Fletcher seemed to know by instinct what worked and what wouldn't and I don't feel he ever got it really wrong. Although he may have strayed a little here and there along the way, I still remember him with great respect and affection and recommend his (now) legacy designs unreservedly.

It'll be interesting to see what Rega have done with the RB303 which should be along very soon now. The basic design is first class IMO, but maybe limited by wiring issues and obvious (to those that have set them up on different decks) mounting compromises - all those spacers and possible incompatibility with some armboard types I think...

[Neil McCauley]

Mayware - Formula 4 uni & Mission original '774' are my all time favs. Not the slightest intrest in Mid to high mass arms

Ah ha. Yes, I'd forgotten about these. I too like the original 774 greatly. With a Supex 901 and on a LP12 is was a difficult challenge to demonstrate a superior sound.

[John]

Howard you heard my air bearing arm and its not weak in the extremes
A lot of that is down to wand length and rigidity

[nat8808]

Is that one those made by Vic the Dentist in Watford? Can't remember the name - Terminator?

[Neil McCauley]

My two favourites at the moment, for what it's worth, are the sadly departed Alphason HR100S, which was WAY before it's time I reckon. Wonderful with "difficult" MC types, I suspect an ADC XLM would also have worked well at the other end of the compliance scale. It certainly sounds fantastic with a "podded" Decca. The other arm is the NAS AceSpace arm, which combines unipivot theory and has stabilisers (like the old Stax UA7 had) to make handling easier. I don't think it's too silly money either, unlike the better looking but hopelessly over-priced (IMO) Naim ARO. Tom Fletcher seemed to know by instinct what worked and what wouldn't and I don't feel he ever got it really wrong. Although he may have strayed a little here and there along the way, I still remember him with great respect and affection and recommend his (now) legacy designs unreservedly.

Good point re the HR100S. Agreed that it was far ahead of it's time. I did sell lots of STAX arms inc the CF versions. Mainly on the Micro Seiki DX-1000 decks. In every respect these looked the business but try as I may I never achieved what I felt was a spectacular sound. The FR64s i found more pleasing.

The Syrinx PU/2 & PU/3 of course - nothwithstanding questionable quality control.

The Grace G-707 was always predictable i.e consistent but the speed with which a powerful MC cartridge could loosen the bearings was both a source of astonishment and dismay. damn good with the F9E MM cartridge.

Now this may be heretical but the fact was that many of my customers were utterly delighted with the SME 3009 with virtually any Shure cartridges, The Sonus range (terrific and sadly underrated), Pickering, Stanton and Grados.

[John]

Is that one those made by Vic the Dentist in Watford? Can't remember the name - Terminator?

Yes but Vic no longer a dentist or based in Watford

[Welder]

Tone arms are fundamentally flawed. The best one can hope for is absolute accuracy at two points.
The obvious answer is of course is linear tracking. Or better still, no mechanical link at all.
Oh wait; its been done ;)

[hifi_dave]

If we're talking favourite arms, mine is the Fidelity Research FR-64S. When that came along it was like a breath of fresh air - stunning sonics and with a build to match. Not only that but it is 100% reliable and a joy to set up and use with a wide range of cartridges.

Another great arm that rarely gets a mention is the Helius Orion. Sounds excellent and was well made unlike some arms of that time.

I also have a soft spot for the SME 3009 imp, with fixed or detachable headshell. It was my first 'serious' arm and I still have it, working perfectly on my Goldring G99. Not a universal arm by any means but great with the right cartridge. Fit n finish n styling.

[Clive]

As John has said, Vic now is solely focused on his Trans-Fi business. I've been privileged to follow the progress of Vic's air bearing arms to it's current level. The changes along the way have been dramatic. I can't think of an area where it is now lacking - assuming you aren't after audiophile jewelry, just good engineering to achieve a really good price and high excellence in sound. Many of the changes along the way have indeed helped at the frequency extremes, particularly in the bass. Some folks don't seem able to ditch their assumption that pivoted arms are the only way. Their loss.

[prestonchipfryer]

Noticed that some had the Mission 774. Had one on an LP12 with a Signet (think it was a TKIII) in the 80s. Very good sound as I remember it. The finish on the 774 was not brilliant, to say the least, but all adjustments were available with this arm: Azimuth, VTA, damping, etc. Easy to adjust as well. It would be good if Rega arms (and derivatives) had all adjustments built in, but suppose that is asking too much.

John

[Rare Bird]

The lightweight Mayware arms were wonderful for ADC's and Sonus Blue cartridges, but not good with much else I found.



Dave it worked wonderful with a lot of cartridges, sounded superb with Nag 'MP11 Boron' ;)

[DSJR]

I tried one on my Lp12 a few years later (mid 80's) and must admit to finding it wanting, but then, the Linn chip was fully inserted where the sun don't shine and hadn't been forcibly ejected at that point :)

Howard, I agree regarding the Sonus Blue, but they were variable I found. I'm well chuffed with mine though and it works a treat in the 701... :)

[Neil McCauley]

Howard you heard my air bearing arm and its not weak in the extremes
A lot of that is down to wand length and rigidity

Indeed. And colleague AoS readers, John is correct. So how come I made this cock-up? Simple. For some reason I thought that John / Vic's arm was not air-bearing. It is of course, but the pump is very quite.

Re the wand-length, this was a driving force vehind the Dynavector DV505 and 507 arms and the Transcriptor's 'Vestigial' arm.

Thanks for the nudge John. Kindest regards. Howard

[DSJR]

Yes but Vic no longer a dentist or based in Watford

A shame, as I need a good dentist to fix my crumbling fillings. A keen interest in all things audio to take one's mind of the drilling & filling would have been a great advantage :lolsign:

I bought some of Vic's tonearm wire not long ago. Splendid service :)

[Neil McCauley]

A shame, as I need a good dentist to fix my crumbling fillings.

I've been relying on Greg here > http://trinitydental.co.uk/practice.htm for many years. Faultless service. Reasonable prices. If within a reasonable
distance then well worth a visit. Unhesitatingly recommended.

[nat8808]

Yes but Vic no longer a dentist or based in Watford

I once sold an LP12 on ebay and the american buyer asked me to take it along to Vic to be fettled to take a Terminator - showed me around his system. Very nice guy. Odd to find a dental practice with a listening room in the basement and bits of turntable in the spare surgery.. no, actually is was more a kitchen kind of space, not a surgery.

Oddly, the American buyer just disappeared and never got in touch with Vic, at least still hadn't some 3 months after I delivered it..

[nat8808]

As John has said, Vic now is solely focused on his Trans-Fi business. I've been privileged to follow the progress of Vic's air bearing arms to it's current level. The changes along the way have been dramatic. I can't think of an area where it is now lacking - assuming you aren't after audiophile jewelry, just good engineering to achieve a really good price and high excellence in sound. Many of the changes along the way have indeed helped at the frequency extremes, particularly in the bass. Some folks don't seem able to ditch their assumption that pivoted arms are the only way. Their loss.

I've considered it but think it's too heavy for my Pink Triangle - takes about a 820g max arm I think.

He needs to start experimenting with carbon fibre..

Not sure it's necessarily an assumption in terms of what works but an aesthetic assumption of what a turntable is, how you interact with it - it's too tied up in vinyl culture and history and image.

In a sense I too would find it a shame to change that interaction of moving the arm over in the normal way - as you say, my loss.. and would have to have two TTs.

[sq225917]

Sorry for backtracking a little, but stiffness in and of itself isn't the sole arbiter of quality in a turntable arm, you can't consider it in isolation of arm and cartridge resonances. The stiffest arm will not always be the best, far from it in fact. You have to consider where stiffness and resistance to flexion stops and resonance starts. They are effectively the same thing just occurring at different scales and frequencies.

I'd give my back teeth to own something like the Sindre, with its air-bearing arm, short carbon armtube and linear tracking. I think these arms have the potential to get closest to perfection, high stiffness, moderate mass and low resonance free of steep peaks within the audio band.

[Neil McCauley]

Sorry for backtracking a little, but stiffness in and of itself isn't the sole arbiter of quality in a turntable arm, you can't consider it in isolation of arm and cartridge resonances. The stiffest arm will not always be the best, far from it in fact. You have to consider where stiffness and resistance to flexion stops and resonance starts. They are effectively the same thing just occurring at different scales and frequencies.

This was precisely the founding and I believe enduring ethos of Scott Strachan, founder and designer of Syrinx. He was a rather engaging eccentric. In fact it seemed to me that in some respects ne was a bit like Sgt. Oddball in Kelly's Heroes - played by Donald Sutherland. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuStsFW4EmQ

[nat8808]

Sorry for backtracking a little, but stiffness in and of itself isn't the sole arbiter of quality in a turntable arm, you can't consider it in isolation of arm and cartridge resonances. The stiffest arm will not always be the best, far from it in fact. You have to consider where stiffness and resistance to flexion stops and resonance starts. They are effectively the same thing just occurring at different scales and frequencies.

I'd give my back teeth to own something like the Sindre, with its air-bearing arm, short carbon armtube and linear tracking. I think these arms have the potential to get closest to perfection, high stiffness, moderate mass and low resonance free of steep peaks within the audio band.

Well, for about £750 you can buy the top Trans-Fi Terminator - only difference is the Sindre uses the same airbearing for vertical movement too but then the Sindre has a long arm tube so more susceptable to resonance.

For £500 you can often pick up mid - late 80s linear tracking, air bearing arms..

[nat8808]

Has anyone here heard a British deck from the mid 90s that had a tonearm made of triangular, pylon/crane type structure?

Surely you could something like that 3-D printed in ceramic these days...

[John]

I once sold an LP12 on ebay and the american buyer asked me to take it along to Vic to be fettled to take a Terminator - showed me around his system. Very nice guy. Odd to find a dental practice with a listening room in the basement and bits of turntable in the spare surgery.. no, actually is was more a kitchen kind of space, not a surgery.

Oddly, the American buyer just disappeared and never got in touch with Vic, at least still hadn't some 3 months after I delivered it..

Yes Vic told me a bit about the LP12 story not sure what happened in the end
I agree Vic is very geniune
His system in his home is now creating some of the most amazing music I heard!

[stewartwen]

There are number of things that a pick up arm must do;
1. Have very low bearing friction, in all planes
2. Use cables that do not affect the p/u arms performance
3. Have easily set VTA adjust, and of course easily set VTF.
4. Be well designed as a complete piece of elecrto mechanical engineering.
5. They must be easy to use.
6. also they must be relatively easy to repair.
7. If a universal arm, they must work with a large variety of cartridges.
8. Be availiable in two or three arm legths.
9. Must have the ability to add mass to suit some of the older carts, and of course the Denon DL 103
10. Have the option of using damping fluid.
I could go on for hours but I am sure that you get my drift.
S

[sq225917]

Well, for about £750 you can buy the top Trans-Fi Terminator - only difference is the Sindre uses the same airbearing for vertical movement too but then the Sindre has a long arm tube so more susceptable to resonance.

For £500 you can often pick up mid - late 80s linear tracking, air bearing arms..

You see your idea of 'only difference' and mine are about as far removed as could possibly be. The two arms are in fact as far apart in terms of air-bearing arms as it is possible to be. Have a think abut rocking modes on both arms and get back to me. ;-)

[Clive]

The circular air bearing arms seem to have their own set of issues. The Sindre uses a long arm tube which from trying out different lengths I know to be a REALLY significant area. Maybe the length Sindre has is good for their arm but I suspect they kept it long to make it more universally acceptable as it makes placing the record on the platter easier. As for any rocking modes with a short wand.....the best arm I've owned for tracking warps is the shortest arm, possibly due to low mass of the wand.

[nat8808]

You see your idea of 'only difference' and mine are about as far removed as could possibly be. The two arms are in fact as far apart in terms of air-bearing arms as it is possible to be. Have a think abut rocking modes on both arms and get back to me. ;-)

I've been thinking about rocking modes.. horses? Rocking moods? like when a bit fidgety?

You'll have to explain the terminology - I'm sure what it refers to is common sense but I don't know the syntax.

I see the differences in terms of what I see physically - your ideas of differences probably extrapolate on that and take into account what these physical differences then follow on to mean, widening the gap.

[nat8808]

The circular air bearing arms seem to have their own set of issues. The Sindre uses a long arm tube which from trying out different lengths I know to be a REALLY significant area. Maybe the length Sindre has is good for their arm but I suspect they kept it long to make it more universally acceptable as it makes placing the record on the platter easier. As for any rocking modes with a short wand.....the best arm I've owned for tracking warps is the shortest arm, possibly due to low mass of the wand.

Better tracking but bigger changes in VTA?

Sonic effects of changes in VTA depending on stylus shape?

All gets quite specific and complicated when we go into too much detail doesn't it..

Much nicer when people just wrap it all up in one word: Synergy.

Then we can move away from thinking about it too much and just go by random trial and error!

[nat8808]

Out of interest, how does a cutting lathe move accross the vinyl?

Is it mechanical, related to the number of rotations of the platter?

[sq225917]

A cutting head is electromechanically driven, the distance it moves is directly related to the total length of the record and the amplitude of the next revolutions worth of music to be cut. ig used to be done by guess work, but it's been done with a digital delay line for decades now, mid seventies I think.

The pivot point of the Sindre arm is a line through the middle of arm tube, roughly in line with the tip of the stylus heightwise. Where do we think the pivot point of the transfi is as it tracks warps and how does the location of the pivot point alter as it rides the warps. Or is it that because of the V that forms the effective arm tube that it cannot accurately ride the warps and ends up compressing the canti vertically instead?

One of these is a well thought out geometric solution, the other simply is not, but it's easy to source and make in your shed. I have no idea how either of them sound, I'm sure the Transfi is more than acceptable, Clive loves his that much is obvious and I have heard from Mark that his set-up sounds very good.

[k9vap]

The pivot point of the Sindre arm is a line through the middle of arm tube, roughly in line with the tip of the stylus heightwise. Where do we think the pivot point of the transfi is as it tracks warps and how does the location of the pivot point alter as it rides the warps. Or is it that because of the V that forms the effective arm tube that it cannot accurately ride the warps and ends up compressing the canti vertically instead?

One of these is a well thought out geometric solution, the other simply is not, but it's easy to source and make in your shed. I have no idea how either of them sound, I'm sure the Transfi is more than acceptable, Clive loves his that much is obvious and I have heard from Mark that his set-up sounds very good.

Experiments conducted in my "shed" have shown that unless the wand mass is also perfectly centred from the pivot point forward to the stylus and from the pivot point back the counterweight (which it never is) the maths is not so simple. I have found in my real world experiments that keeping the centre of gravity below the pivot has less of an effect on VTF over warps. Having the pivot point in a straight line from stylus to fulcrum often means most of the mass is above the pivot line. As the wand tilts, this has a pendulum effect on the VTF which I feel is far worse than the effect the stylus geometry would have on warps.

I may not be correct, but to insinuate I have not thought of this is an insult, Simon.

Vic

[sq225917]

Vic, I really don't think it's fitting for this thread to become a treatise on what I see as the technical shortcomings of the Transfi arm. You probably don't want it, and I have a sneaking suspicion it won't appeal to Marco's sensibilities or enamour me with other members of the forum who hold you in high esteem.

I wasn't insinuating that you hadn't thought of the pivot point conundrum Vic, simply that I didn't think you had chosen the best technical solution.

Let's just say, I can see no valid technical reason for not choosing a round horizontal arm carrier assembly other that cost and ease of manufacture. I assume your made your choices based on your target audience as opposed to purely technical reason as evidenced on the large majority of high end air bearing arms.

[The Grand Wazoo]

So trying to get us all to neatly sidestep around what looks like it may turn into a bit of an altercation, let me ask you this Simon:

Do you suppose that tubes are used purely for technical reasons and not also because they can be bought relatively cheaply (in the case of many arms) and matched easily to other parts (also made cheaply) in house on a lathe, whilst neatly hiding the wiring?

[Clive]

Simon, are you speaking from your own theories or practical experience? There are many ways to skin a cat but the quality of execution is key! How familiar are you with the Terminator in use?

[John]

Interesting theory Simon All I know is just how well this arm performs The arm will never be a soloution for everybody and its not meant to be But its costs to performance level is what this site is about I could never go back to a pivot arm myself but cannot really speak to much about other designs all I know is I am very happy with its performance in the real world
For myself I had lots of different arms in the past including an Illustrous a SME 4 silver wired and a Zeta

[k9vap]

Actually, there is a tubular air arm on the market that is cheaper than Terminator.

If you dont understand the advantage of having the horizontal & vertical pivots separate, you need to do some research into Ladegaard & his theories on tonearms & resonance before dissing Terminator.

[DSJR]

Anything that does justice to a Decca cartridge has a huge thumbs-up in my book :)

From my amateur perstective, if the arm-pipe is long and not shaped/tapered in some way, won't there be a tendency for it to "bend?" making the pipe thicker adds to the effective mass, which may be ok for some pickups, but not others. making it shorter may put a compromise on warps and VTA (minimal with weights and clamps on the record I suspect), but may make for a more rigid design.

A fascinating discussion and since the Terminator costs so relatively little compared to other top end confections, well worth trying out I reckon :)

[John]

In my experience its a match made in Heaven Dave

[Rare Bird]

I tried one on my Lp12 a few years later (mid 80's) and must admit to finding it wanting, but then, the Linn chip was fully inserted where the sun don't shine and hadn't been forcibly ejected at that point :)



For some reason i never felt right using an uni on springy TT's! My Mayware 'F4' Sounded wonderfully open on the J.A Michell 'Focus S' with Pickering 'XLZ-7500S'/'PLZ'..A vastly underrated buget TT imho.

Pictured below my arm i posted on another forum years ago fully rewired with Cardas

[DSJR]

The most F4's we sold in the day were with JBE DD table and fitted with Sonus Blue - an excellent synergy there I remember until the LP12/Grace 707 and Supex combo swept it all away....

[sq225917]

So trying to get us all to neatly sidestep around what looks like it may turn into a bit of an altercation, let me ask you this Simon:

Do you suppose that tubes are used purely for technical reasons and not also because they can be bought relatively cheaply (in the case of many arms) and matched easily to other parts (also made cheaply) in house on a lathe, whilst neatly hiding the wiring?

Chris, I can't claim to know why any designer who chooses a tube does so. Availability, price, variety and predictable mechanical characteristics will all play a part in their choice to a greater or lesser extent. It could be that they all choose a tube because they believe that it gives a more consistent air gap that is unaffected by drag on the stylus to stimulate rocking modes, or that it allows them to ensure there is only a single line of pivot symmetry and therefore predictable warp tracking. Of course they could just choose it because tube/rod is easily available.

I am sure that none of them are fabricating them on a lathe in their shed though, not unless their shed is adjoined by a metalwork facility that's capable of precision grinding and honing. Though some of lesser manufacturers might drill pre-purchased tube with their shed-located B&Q drill press.


Vic, I think I have a good understanding of the reasoning behind splitting the vertical and horizontal pivots in a tonearm, Dynavector do it with some precision and success. I'm not aware that Ladegard did this with two pivots though, his arm was a long knife edge bearing and like any air-bearing slider arm has only one (long) pivot, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make or how you think that point refers to your or his arm. I'm well versed on his work for B&K.

I assume you mean you are able to create two different moments of inertia in the Transfi, one in the horizontal and the other in the vertical; due to the different moving masses in each plane and having the ability to alter the effective mass of each individually to give some control over resonance in each plane individually. If you have the equipment and knowledge to be able to measure and tune these factors in your arm to reduce the resonances to the lowest possible levels and outside of the audioband then i applaud your efforts. What is the resonant frequencies of your arm assembly?


Clive, I have zero experience with it, I'm purely looking at the design choices from a technical point of view much in the same way i'd look at a car with a wheel in each corner as being more stable than a Reliant Robin. I don't have to roll the Robin onto it's roof at 50mph going round a tight bend to see a potential shortcoming of the design choices its designer made.


As I said however, I thought this was a technical discussion of what defines a good tonearm, had I have known that the answer we were looking for was 'because the designer says so' then i wouldn't have bothered responding, it wasn't my intent to upset anyone, just enjoy a robust technical discussion. I'll refrain from any further responses regarding the Transfi.

[Clive]

Clive, I have zero experience with it, I'm purely looking at the design choices from a technical point of view much in the same way i'd look at a car with a wheel in each corner as being more stable than a Reliant Robin. I don't have to roll the Robin onto it's roof at 50mph going round a tight bend to see a potential shortcoming of the design choices its designer made.


As I said however, I thought this was a technical discussion of what defines a good tonearm, had I have known that the answer we were looking for was 'because the designer says so' then i wouldn't have bothered responding.
Simon, a crucial point is that I am very aware that Vic has many theories too but what he then does is to make prototypes to test his theories out. As with any theory it could be right or wrong. Such testing is vital. We can all have our pet ideas but they don't always work out as expected, other factors can turn out to be more important, yes a Robin is unstable but there are racing trikes that fair rather better, are 4 wheel always better that 3, possibly not.

The perfect tonearm does not exist and will no doubt won't ever exist. There will always be compromises to work with, eg do you want a tonearm that will track extreme warps or would you prefer one that is optimised for less imperfect LPs? - this is just an example of a couple of potential design requirements. Maybe warps are not that important but it depends on how you define a warp, ie +/-2mm or +/-5mm and over what distance?

[John]

There are no issues in how the Terminator tracks if a record is in reasonable condiction the arm has no issues and copes with small warps
I repeat in listening I have had many pivoted arms and my personal preference is for the air bearing I can get great bass and clean extended highs I been to Vics home and heard his system the bass he gets is absoulty stunning
Theories are fair enough and they can help develop our understanding but this is a subjective site and most of us care what actually something sounds like in real life

[Marco]

Excellent discussion, chaps.

No need to bow out, Simon, as your input is as valid as anyone else's. All I'd say is let's not refer to sole-trader's working premises as "sheds", as it is rather disrespectful, and very likely inaccurate ;)

Marco.

[DSJR]

I believe Tom Fletcher made many/most of his turntables from a converted barn (or similar) at his home for many years. The decks just got better and better in finish. By the way, didn't Naim start from a converted living room in salt lane in Salisbury????? Whatever you think of the brand, it's now one of the most successful audio manufacturers in the UK currently...

I also believe many cartridges (and certainly Decca's) have unequal compliances vertically and horizontally. I've added mass to my headshell which has improved the bass, but makes the thing very difficult to handle (thank heavens for cueing devices as I haven't a finger-lift)...

[Marco]

Yup, Dave. I think that the term "workshop" would suffice :)

Marco.

[k9vap]

I don't want to get involved in mathematical technicalities or abstract discussions. As Clive says, I prefer to test an idea out in practice in the real world. I am lucky in having the facilities to do this & also the passion for it. That is why I felt the need to defend the accusation that Terminator was not thought out.

The T3Pro you see now is not something I just knocked together in my workshop, but represents nearly 10 years of evolution, from the early traditional Ladegaards to the present inverted bearing design. Every part of the tonearm has gone through many prototype stages, from the size, spacing & profiles of the holes in the manifold to many wand/pivot bearing designs & materials. Various sliders were made in active & passive forms, sizes & widths in an attempt to improve the efficiency of the air bearing. Here is one area I believe it scores over the tubular design requiring less than 1/4 of the air pressure of other low pressure designs. The hiss from the manifold is inaudible.

Terminator is not perfect, & never will be......but I believe it plays records better than alot of things out there.

[John]

Just to say having known Vic and seen how his arm has envolved over the years I would agree with his above staement
I think Vic hardly sells any of these arms in this country; its a shame because in my experience I have found the arm to perform at a very high level indeed and have been a strong advocate of this design since I first heard it on my old VPI HW19iv
For me I like this real approach of test and listen
I say with all things HIFI related hear and experience for yourself make up your own mind.

[sq225917]

Terminator is not perfect, & never will be......but I believe it plays records better than alot of things out there.

Vic I'm sure it does, it appears to address many of the issues with gimble and unipivot arms.

Would you like me to send you a pair of the jewel cup pivots and micron polished steel points that i have in my spares box? You might find them an interesting alternative to your current 'points'. ;-)

[JazzBones]

I think the uni-pivots referred to from the 80's are the tatty old hadcocks, which fell to bits even before being set up :lol: I only mention these old relics because the arm is still being made in one form or another and in actual fact, once the oldies were properly assembled, they sounded excellent on the early LP12, Thorens 160 and Systemdek - imo of course. The lightweight Mayware arms were wonderful for ADC's and Sonus Blue cartridges, but not good with much else I found. I believe there was a massier later version which may still be in production and of course the Roksan Nima seems to borrow a heck of a lot from the Mayware ideals - in appearance certainly..

The Mission 774 Andr'e was a good idea, but let down by terrible quality control and awful tacky finish on most of them. By the time they'd tidied the thing up, the heavy exit wires all but precluded satisfactory use on the fruitbox and immediate competition, so it lost favour and faded away to be replaced by the mechanic and Jelco made? cheaper arm they did...

My two favourites at the moment, for what it's worth, are the sadly departed Alphason HR100S, which was WAY before it's time I reckon. Wonderful with "difficult" MC types, I suspect an ADC XLM would also have worked well at the other end of the compliance scale. It certainly sounds fantastic with a "podded" Decca. The other arm is the NAS AceSpace arm, which combines unipivot theory and has stabilisers (like the old Stax UA7 had) to make handling easier. I don't think it's too silly money either, unlike the better looking but hopelessly over-priced (IMO) Naim ARO. Tom Fletcher seemed to know by instinct what worked and what wouldn't and I don't feel he ever got it really wrong. Although he may have strayed a little here and there along the way, I still remember him with great respect and affection and recommend his (now) legacy designs unreservedly.

It'll be interesting to see what Rega have done with the RB303 which should be along very soon now. The basic design is first class IMO, but maybe limited by wiring issues and obvious (to those that have set them up on different decks) mounting compromises - all those spacers and possible incompatibility with some armboard types I think...

Dave, many light years ago at one of the Chesterfield shows, I was talking to Tom Fletcher (enthusiastic in all things turntable and arms) when, to prove his point, he requested that I stick out my right arm, much to my amusement and curiosity I did so where upon he suddenly grabbed my arm and started to pull and jerk it much to my surprise and alarm. This was Tom's idea, passed onto me, as to what a pick up arm had to endure!!!!:eek: I mentioned unipivotal arms to him and in particular the Aro (me being an LP12 user as you know), Tom related how Naim had requested a unipivot from him which he obligingly sent, he was that type of fella. The NA arm was returned to Tom with a statement that the unipivot idea did not work (er hum :rolleyes:). Shortly after Naim came out with their Aro unipivot arm much to Tom's chargrin (read incredible disbelief!). You may have encountered this story yourself as you well knew Tom... I really liked the guy but from then on always made sure my arms (bodily) were kept out of reach :eyebrows::lol: Tom is now no more and there was no one else to verify this story but it did shock me as I use Naim stuff (tinkered with I must say) but not the Aro.
Theres nowt as wierd as Hi Fi folk!


Ron :respect:

[DSJR]

I HATED the ARO with a vengeance at the time, you may recall Ron. It wasn't until I set one up for an old client who was treating himself to a brand new LP12/Armageddon/ARO and Lyra (I think, but it was eight years or so ago) that I really heard what this arm could do - on an LP12 anyway. Having heard the audio exit leads in isolation (they use a sort of French sourced? flexible aerial type coax IIRC), I'd say that any "sound" in the ARO is more to do with these than the tonearm structure. As you know, I had the earlier Mentor arm for a good while and it was a joy to use, if not as well finished in detail as a Jelco (or ARO for that matter).

Tom got his revenge on the end, as instead of the arrow shape being an influence (and possibly other things?), he actually used the carbon-fibre loaded arrow shafts as the arm-tubes for his "Ace" arms - and very good they are too for not much more than jelco prices..

Sorry for thread drift, but I was thinking whether Vic might consider a precision conventional tonearm, but then I remembered the current NAS arms and was wondering if they make a conventional mount for alternative decks......

[John]

My experience is that Vic uses all the products he sells in his own system, so think it unlikely he would make a conventional arm.