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Historicus
19-10-2008, 11:21
I have read on the audiocircle forum that Marco owns a Denon 103 Pro as I do.
A really great cartridge that has really more hights then the 103R and simply a better sound of another classe. I'm really happy about it (I use the 103Pro with a (japanese) Ortofon AS-309 S 13inch tonearm on an old Garrard 401 with a massive german plynth that sounds like a little Verdier!

I want to ask here if someone tried the step up of HIGHPHONIC HP-T5S with this cartridge and if it can compete with Denon's AU-S1 ?

Actually I use a twicked (better cables and cinches) Denon AU-300 that I want anyway to improve with a better product and that's why I'm asking your advice.

Ciao from Rome,

Piero

Historicus
21-10-2008, 06:03
Hi Marco, I need your answer!

Kind regards,

Piero

PS I choose the 103 Pro after reading an article of guru Reto Luigi Andreoli on the alternative magazine HiFi Szene from Swiss. This magazine doesn't exist anymore because was against any promotion and brain washing of the hifi industry. Reto Andreoli simply wrote what a nonsence was the philosophy of a VdH diamond referred on how records were pressed. For him a well combined 103 (heavy tonarm as Fidelity Research, Ikeda, 3012 + a massive player as a Verdier Platine) was the heaven of reproduction, at least, without any artefacts.
A swiss friend sold me one of his 103 Pro bought in Japan telling me that it was simply a cartidge of another level (better hights, great deepness, etc.) and he was really right!

griffo104
21-10-2008, 07:57
I use a Denon Au-300 with my Denon DL301ii, a nice little step up.

For Denon Dl103 (regardless of type) try and check the availability of an Audiotorium 23 (try googling that name). It's a German made step up transformer and is specifically made for the DL103. If you do a search on the Stereophile website you may be able to find the review on there (it was in Art Dudley's column).

By all accounts it's an excellent step up and Marco has used one.

Marco
21-10-2008, 09:21
Hi Piero,

Sorry for the delay, I've just been a bit busy lately :)

The Highphonic HP-T5S is a very good step-up transformer, and ideally matched to the 103Pro. I used to have one and sold it to Scoobs (Nick) who posts here before buying my Auditorium 23. He has since sold it on to someone else after himself buying an A23. It certainly works very well indeed but in my opinion it is not as good as the A23 or Denon AU-S1 (see links below):

A23: http://www.toneimports.com/auditorium23/a23stepup.html

Six Moons review: http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/auditorium23/23.html

AU-S1: http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Denon_AU-S1_Audiophile_MC_Step-up_Transformer.html

Much depends on how much you want to spend. The AU-S1 is priced on the Audiocubes website, and the A23 is £350 in the UK. You can email Tone Imports and find out how much they are to send to Italy and be informed of your nearest dealer. Keith Aschenbrenner, who designed the A23, is a lovely guy to deal with - a real enthusiast with a terrific ear for voicing hi-fi equipment.

He values tone and timbre, which sadly are qualities that are lacking in so much hi-fi equipment made now, particularly moving coil cartridges, which these days prioritise detail retrieval and 'clarity' (not how I would consider it in the genuine sense) above all else resulting in a somewhat 'forensic', clinical, portrayal of music that does not appeal to my ears. This is where classic cartridges such as the Denon DL-103, EMT TSD/XSD-15 and Ortofon SPU score over their 'forensic' counterparts. Keith also has a wonderful system which I'm sure you'll approve of!

You are absolutely right about the 103Pro. It is in my opinion the best of all the 103 derivatives, mainly because of the extended high frequency response to 55,000Hz (instead of the 45,000Hz of standard models). This gives it detail and clarity which other 103s can't manage, whilst retaining the bass drive and 'funky' sounding factor that the 103 is renowned for.

I hope that helps. If there's anything else you'd like to know just ask. If you'd like to know about the Audiocom modifications to the Sony X-777ES (as per your email) start a thread in The Digital Impression and I'll pop by and deal with it :smoking:

Marco.

Yomanze
21-10-2008, 11:04
Hey Marco... I'm not sure if this 'extra clarity' will be due to the extended frequency range. Not even my STAX earspeakers go up to 55Khz and your Spendors are measured at 20Khz +- 3db. I'd not really expect to see anyone on this forum with speakers that extend past 30Khz.

Marco
21-10-2008, 11:11
Yom, you're right. But it's a bit like the effect of a supertweeter: you can 'hear' its effect, even though technically you can't, if you see what I mean. The extended high frequency response of the Pro also adds 'air' and 'space' to music.

It's about the knock-on effect, sonically, further down the frequency range where the ear is most sensitive that the extension to 55,000Hz is noticed. This is what makes the 103Pro special compared to other 103s :)

Marco.

Chris
21-10-2008, 14:33
Hi Marco et al.,
I´m using an AT-650 with my 103Pro into a P10/Sugden a21SE. It´s the only SUT I´ve heard and, living in the Canaries, am likely to hear unless I buy blind as I did with my 103Pro. How does the AT compare ? I´m having a Kondo rewire on my Ittok LV111 for Christmas and hopefully I will then be in a better position to appreciate what one of these SUTs can do. I rather fancy the Highphonics one - any idea of the price ?

By the way, would you contemplate a retip job for the 103Pro or do you favour staying with the original spherical one ?
Chris

Marco
21-10-2008, 15:41
Hi Chris,

Mmm, where should I start... First of all I rate the P10 and Sugden as excellent bits of kit, so you're fine there. However I'm afraid that an Ittok just isn't really suitable for a DL-103Pro, or otherwise. It's an excellent arm, but it really needs a Linn or a Lyra cartridge, or perhaps an OC-9 or AT-33PTG, which would work well with your AT-650 step-up transformer.

The problem with a 103 on an Ittok is that a) there isn't sufficient effective mass, particularly at the headshell, to optimise its performance, nor is the headshell large enough to accept its physical size comfortably, and b) the Ittok's mid-forward sonic signature doesn't suit the 103, as it possesses similar traits in that area. I'm sure you're getting acceptable results but it's far from an ideal combination.

The other thing is that I suspect your AT-650 will not provide the correct loading and impedance values which the 103Pro (or otherwise) requires. Ideally, although I appeciate the challenges in your part of the world, MC cartridges and SUTs should be purchased together as a combination and both designed together from the ground up. This is what happens, for example with the Denon AU-300 and AU-S1 devices and Denon cartridges, and what has happened with the likes of the A23 - it's why they work so well.

Depending on what's most important to you, I would either keep the Ittok and find a cartridge which suits it better, or if you really like the 103Pro, find an arm which it'll work with - something high-mass with a detachable headshell would be ideal, athough these are pretty thin on the ground, and then buy either one of Denon's own SUTs, a Highphonic, or an A23. You don't say what deck you've got. Given that you're using an Ittok I'm presuming it's an LP12. If so, again this is not the ideal deck to use with a DL-103.

As for re-tips, personally I'm not a big fan as I feel that they remove some of the original sought after character from cartridges, even though certain sonic improvements may be gained in other areas. Troikas are a good example - I don't think the ESco re-tips sound as good, and I've heard similar things happening with DL-103s. I'd be interested to hear how Nick (Scoobs) gets on with his recently sapphire-modified 103Pro. Perhaps this will be an exception to the rule :)

Marco.

scoobs
21-10-2008, 15:47
Hi Chris
Would I be right in guessing you post as Alvolake on the wam?

The Highphonics SUT new from Japan will set you back around £220 with import tax etc. I sold mine to a wammer (musicbox) who has recently been trying to shift it on...have you not seen it? I think he still has it.

Being the grateful recipient of Marco's hand-me-downs I also have a 103pro too...well it was a pro, it is coming back hopefully tomorrow with a sapphire cantilever and fancy paratracer stylus. Trouble is the guys at Expert Stylus Co have taken over 2 months to do this which is killing me now as I hadn't budgeted for a back up cartridge, and had I asked previously they would have sent me a stock 103 as a courtesy car(t) as these fellas work on 1908 timescales not 2008 :steam: :doh: I just hope I'm back tomorrow singing their praises as they are just meticulous.

You should also consider nuding your 103pro, as it responds well to the additional mass, and if, like me you're not convinced by the poor headshell/cart coupling interface of the 103.

Regarding the Denon AU-S1. I think this is really aimed at the ultra high compliance and ultra low output DL304 and top of the range A-S1. The best options for you would be the hiphonics, or a really nice letter to Santa asking for a Auditorium23, or perhaps a CimeMag. Have a butchers here (http://home.comcast.net/~omaille/audio/DL103/DL-103.html) for details.

Marco
21-10-2008, 16:00
Regarding the Denon AU-S1. I think this is really aimed at the ultra high compliance and ultra low output DL304 and top of the range A-S1.

Did you mean the DL-S1?

I'm pretty sure that's not the case, mate, regarding the DL-304. If anything it's the opposite. I'd imagine that the DL-103 and top of the range DL-S1 are more fussy with step-up transformers than the DL-304. I know where you're coming from, and I could be wrong, but most people I know who run DL-304s do so quite happily into active transistor MC stages.

With a 103Pro the best SUT, IMO, is either the top Highphonic one (I forget the model number, but it's up from the HP-T5S), a Denon AU-S1 or an A23.

Hey, you could have grown a big bushy beard by the time ESco have taken to do the mods on your cartridge! :eyebrows:

Marco.

scoobs
21-10-2008, 16:10
Funny enough Marco, I haven't shaved since last friday, as I have the week off work.

Just looking at that link again and came across his 1210 (http://home.comcast.net/~omaille/audio/SL-1200/1200Mods.html) page...interesting.

Marco
21-10-2008, 16:26
Interesting link (the first one). The CimeMag looks like another viable SUT option. I had to chuckle at this bit, though:


As has been recently said:

"The Denon DL-103 enjoys to right since 1962 (!) Cult status with innumerable music lover. In spite of the bargain entry, this system resides almost always in very expensive and ausgefuchsten units. For the Japanese broadcast conceives, conquered this hochaktuelle classic, style just in heavy, robust tone arms e.g. a SME 3012-R since then the entire world. The DL-103 is with security of one of the tonal most balanced cartridges, that there is. It plays warmly, mightily, voluminous, incredible dynamically, enormously bass festival and in addition with a means area and high tone area breach loose subsequent itself."


"As has been recently said" indeed! Yeah, I couldn't agree more :lol:

The stuff in the second link is a bit too 'home-made' looking for me. I'm not sure I'm into strapping brass pipe caps to the end of my tonearm. I'd far rather have one of Thruno's lovely polished solid brass designs!

Marco.

scoobs
21-10-2008, 16:31
Hmm...now I just need to remember where I put that whale oil I had hanging around, and Marco needs to recall how J7 flushed out and re-oiled his bearing. lol

Marco
21-10-2008, 16:43
LOL. Indeed, but that made a big difference and doesn't look butt-ugly! ;)

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 17:14
Hey, you could have grown a big bushy beard by the time ESco have taken to do the mods on your cartridge! :eyebrows:

Well, in their defence I feel obliged to point out it's a very small and very busy outfit.

On a positive note; when I've used them in the past I've never had ANY complaints whatsoever about their craftsmanship. I'm sure it will be worth the wait. :)

SPS
21-10-2008, 18:16
I'm also interested to see how these retips sound

a few months ago i got my hands on an old 1962 shure M3D, they are quite rare broadcasting mm cartridge, and where in the same price league as an spu, it has an orginal stylus, but it is damaged..

About a month ago i got hold af a jelco replacement, and it has taken some breaking in and setting up..
but i've got there, it produces a big smooth musical sound now, records sound like music, not fantastic detail but very good, more listenable than the kesiki or the lyra i had before it.

it needed alot of mass, i have it on the fidelity research arm, on a thorens 124
i've had to add even more mass to the headshell..

i have been pondering about getting the original sylus retipped

must say i'm very impressed as it is...

steve

scoobs
21-10-2008, 18:48
Well, in their defence I feel obliged to point out it's a very small and very busy outfit.

On a positive note; when I've used them in the past I've never had ANY complaints whatsoever about their craftsmanship. I'm sure it will be worth the wait. :)

Yes they are very busy, especially with this new 103 mod, and I feel guilty for saying what I said. It's just I've have had two separate delivery dates come and go now :( Here's to another evening of CD replay. :drugs:

Chris
21-10-2008, 19:01
Hi Scoobs,
yeah, you clocked me good and I used to be no-vice on the Mana forum which is where Marco and I first met. He´s responsible for the dirty great 6 gram glob of Blutak I have on my Ittok ´tho Thrunobulaxx has since made me a rather spiffing brass weight for my headshell which I haven´t yet fitted ´cos my arm is about to travel tae Glasgae ta see yon J7 for some Kondo stuff - if the effect of the Cardas rewire on my mate´s Ittok is owt to go by, the SUT, whichever one I finally go for, is up for a kick in the ass.
Will report soon.
Chris

Marco
21-10-2008, 19:03
Hi Steve,


a few months ago i got my hands on an old 1962 shure M3D, they are quite rare broadcasting mm cartridge, and where in the same price league as an spu, it has an orginal stylus, but it is damaged..


Like this? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/Suits_Me/Brianboards03-04-06238.jpg :)

They're excellent old things and have soul, emotion, and realistic 'tone' in spades, similar to the DL-103 and SPU - exactly what is missing with about 95% of modern cartridges. Any true vinyl aficionado should do themselves a favour and hear one with a suitable turntable and tonearm. For a similar thing try a Shure SC35C, which is the modern equivalent (the body is unfortunately plastic but the generator and stylus assembly, though detachable, are similar):

http://www.bswusa.com//product_popup.asp?product=SC35C&image=http://168.75.125.68/assets/product_images/large/shur_sc35c.jpg

It's touted these days as a 'DJ/scratch cartridge', but mounted on the right turntable and arm, it can sound truly magical (it also has bass to die for) - and it's cheap as chips, as with the DL-103 for very similar reasons (economies of scale).


About a month ago i got hold af a jelco replacement, and it has taken some breaking in and setting up..
but i've got there, it produces a big smooth musical sound now, records sound like music, not fantastic detail but very good, more listenable than the kesiki or the lyra i had before it.


Lyras are clinical, frigid, things in comparison. Jonathan Carr seems like a lovely chap, but I hate the way he voices his cartridges!!


it needed alot of mass, i have it on the fidelity research arm, on a thorens 124
i've had to add even more mass to the headshell..


For an elegant solution, since you've got a detachable headshell arm, use one of these - 18g mass and with almost zero resonant properties:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Audio-Technica/product/Audio-Technica_AT-LH18,OCC_Head_Shell.html

But the cost might be an anathema to your D.I.Y sensibilities ;)

Marco.

Marco
21-10-2008, 19:55
Well, in their defence I feel obliged to point out it's a very small and very busy outfit.


Don't get me wrong, Mike, I know where you're coming from but I have to disagree. I run my own business from home as a 'one-man band' and have in the past taken on more work than I can realistically handle. Thing is, it's ultimately counter-productive because when you can't deliver orders placed by customers in the timescale agreed then in the long term it's doing your business more harm than good as customers will get fed up waiting and in future go elsewhere.

There is simply no excuse for an established company like ESco, who've been trading for a number of years now, taking months (in Scoobs' case) to deliver orders. You take on more staff, move to bigger premises, or do whatever you have to do to guarantee an efficient service. If you're getting enough business (which by all accounts ESco are) then you should be able to afford the cost of higher overheads - even if you have to increase your prices slightly most customers would rather that than having to wait months for their goods!

Much as I sympathise with running a business myself, and being under pressure to deliver products often within very tight timescales, there is simply no excuse for such production delays. I certainly wouldn't give ESco my business, no matter how good the job was, for that reason because all they're doing is trying to make as much profit as possible at the inconvenience of the customer, hoping they'll put up with it, instead of investing profits made in more manpower, machinery and/or bigger premises to cope with the demand for their services and thus pass on increased production efficiency to the customer.

That's a no-no in my book!

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:08
You take on more staff, move to bigger premises, or do whatever you have to do to guarantee an efficient service. If you're getting enough business (which by all accounts ESco are) then you should be able to afford the cost of higher overheads - even if you have to increase your prices slightly most customers would rather that than having to wait months for their goods!

Well...

No!.... In this sort of business I would maintain that you do NOTHING that may compromise quality.

We ain't talking about quantity here... sorry matey. ;)

I would much rather wait for a high quality product than have some 'mass produced' tat sent out in no time...

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:13
Yes of course I agree, but you can have both by putting into place whatever is necessary to do things right in the first place... I.E, employ more staff with the necessary skills to maintain product quality and move to bigger premises! It's not rocket science ;)

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:21
Yes of course I agree, but you can have both by putting into place whatever is necessary to do things right in the first place... I.E, employ more staff with the necessary skills and move to bigger premises! It's not rocket science ;)

Marco.

Ah, but that's the crux of the matter...

This sort of stuff is nothing less than an art...

You don't find folk like that at the local job centre! :eyebrows:

Seriously though... where the hell do you find these sort of craftsman skills?... Think of the likes of Koetsu etc! we're talking about a very rare skill-set here boyo! ;)

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:28
As usual, matey, seek and ye shall find! There are enough companies around making cartridges so there must also be enough people around who know how to re-tip them!

You can also train people, too, you know... How do you think the ones who are doing the job now learned? ;)

The bottom line is ESco are not offering an efficient service and IMO that's not acceptable.

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:31
As usual, matey, seek and ye shall find! There are enough companies around making cartridges so there must also be enough people around who know how to re-tip them! ;)

The bottom line is ESco are not offering an efficient service and IMO that's not acceptable.

Marco.

Bullshit!!!!

Sorry bud... try looking!

Go-on... give us all a list ;)

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:37
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, mate. I'm not in the business so how would I know where to find the right people? But ESco are, so they should! The bottom line is there's NO WAY I would EVER wait months to get my cartridge back from re-tipping! F*ck that for a game of soldiers! :lol:

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:41
You can also train people, too, you know... How do you think the ones who are doing the job now learned? ;)

Picture this....

You are are company who provides a service, say, plumber, sparky, joiner, picture framer, telecoms installer... etc..

You train them for a couple of years and they think 'I can do this on my own' and do so... what is the impact on your business?... not that much I'd guess.

You are a very rare and specialised company, of which there are only two or three in the country who provides this service and you spend a couple of years training them and they think 'I can do this on my own'!... and you lose 30-50% of your business!

Errr....

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:52
Not necessarily, mate. I'm afraid that's a rather simplistic, narrow-minded view. Not everyone wants to run their own business and take on the risks that go with it. Some people are quite happy to work for others and be paid a regular wage. There will always be 'do-ers' and 'followers' on this Earth and that principle applies to people who re-tip cartridges the same as in any other business... ;)

Like I said before the fact is, ESco *could*do something about it if they wanted to, but have deliberately chosen not to. Good luck to you (and others) if you have the patience to wait so long to get your cartridges back. Anyway, as I said, I'm not into re-tips for reasons specified, so thank goodness I'll never have to use their services!

Fingers crossed though that Scoobs gets a good result with his :)

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:54
Okey Dokey...

I hope you don't want to wait more than a few minutes for your Slatedeck! :lol:


Quality comes at a price.... sometimes the price is 'time'! ;)

SPS
21-10-2008, 21:03
Hi Steve,



Like this? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/Suits_Me/Brianboards03-04-06238.jpg :)

They're excellent old things and have soul, emotion, and realistic 'tone' in spades, similar to the DL-103 and SPU - exactly what is missing with about 95% of modern cartridges. Any true vinyl aficionado should do themselves a favour and hear one with a suitable turntable and tonearm. For a similar thing try a Shure SC35C, which is the modern equivalent (the body is unfortunately plastic but the generator and stylus assembly, though detachable, are similar):

http://www.bswusa.com//product_popup.asp?product=SC35C&image=http://168.75.125.68/assets/product_images/large/shur_sc35c.jpg

It's touted these days as a 'DJ/scratch cartridge', but mounted on the right turntable and arm, it can sound truly magical (it also has bass to die for) - and it's cheap as chips, as with the DL-103 for very similar reasons (economies of scale).



Lyras are clinical, frigid, things in comparison. Jonathan Carr seems like a lovely chap, but I hate the way he voices his cartridges!!



For an elegant solution, since you've got a detachable headshell arm, use one of these - 18g mass and with almost zero resonant properties:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Audio-Technica/product/Audio-Technica_AT-LH18,OCC_Head_Shell.html

But the cost might be an anathema for your D.I.Y sensibilities ;)

Marco.


Thats the one Marco, the very same

The headshell has a coin blu-tacked on.. working a treat.. if i keep the cartrige on full time i may invest in one of those 15gram headshells..

its funny, i quite liked the lyra but i supose i've also changed my veiw of what I like since then.. I will go back to the keski in a week or so.. and see how it sounds.. it does detail in spades.. but i am now playing records.. something I'd stopped doing.. and really enjoying the music.

I may bring it to owston ..

steve

Marco
21-10-2008, 21:12
Mikey,

Nah, of course I won't mind waiting for that. But the difference is Darren's upfront about the timescale required to do the job. He hasn't quoted me 2 weeks to do the job (or whatever) and then actually taken two months to finish it, which appears to be along the lines of what ESco have done with Scoobs.

I don't mind waiting 2 months to get a job done to my satisfaction, providing I've been told in the first place that's how long it will take. What I will *NOT* tolerate is being told one thing and it ending up being something very different. Furniture and carpet stores, for example, do this regularly when you order goods, and many other places too, and it's totally inexcusable. In business you deliver what you promise - end of. It's how I've always run my business and why through sheer bloody hard work and a dedication to perfection I now don't have a mortgage to pay... ;)

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 21:17
LOL! :lolsign:


Bugger off!.. Scoobs is having a custom made Sapphire cantilevered cartridge, not a sodding sofa! :sorry:


Or a custom made picture of Elvis! :D



HeHe... Time to 'leave it' I think! ;)

Marco
21-10-2008, 21:20
Yes, that's why I said "for example", ya dafty! ;)

How long is this silly and pointless argument going to last? We obviously have a very different mindset on this. I'm off tomorrow so can stay up and type bollocks all night if necessary :lol:

:lolsign:

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 21:27
HeHe... Time to 'leave it' I think! ;)

Ya missed this bit ya knob! ;)

Marco
21-10-2008, 21:38
Nope, ya wee jobby, I didn't! :lol:

But why should you get the last word? :eyebrows:

:ner:

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 21:40
Coz I'm 'harder' than you! :bum:

Marco
21-10-2008, 21:44
Thats the one Marco, the very same

The headshell has a coin blu-tacked on.. working a treat.. if i keep the cartrige on full time i may invest in one of those 15gram headshells..


You should, Steve. I use one with my DL-103R and Pro and it sounds fantastic. It's undoubtedly the best detachable headshell I've ever used, and over the years I've had a few!


its funny, i quite liked the lyra but i supose i've also changed my veiw of what I like since then.. I will go back to the keski in a week or so.. and see how it sounds.. it does detail in spades.. but i am now playing records.. something I'd stopped doing.. and really enjoying the music.


It is funny because a Lyra and an M3D are about as far apart sonically as you can get with cartridges, but the fact that you're just playing records now and enjoying music says it all...


I may bring it to owston ..


Please do. If it's on a detachable headshell I can listen to it on my 1210 :)

I'll also have the LH-18 with me so we can try your M3D on that if we get time.

Marco.

scoobs
21-10-2008, 21:56
Oh gawd blimey!...what have I started. Can we leave this now please.
Isn't the azimuth slightly out on this?
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/nipple.jpg

Marco
21-10-2008, 22:01
Seems fine, but I'll just have to 'tweak' it to find out... :gig:

Where on earth did you find that image - Googling for tits or 1210s? :lol:

Marco.

scoobs
21-10-2008, 22:05
Lol. I found it whilst browsing off the 103 mod page earlier.

Marco
21-10-2008, 22:11
Hi Scoobs,
yeah, you clocked me good and I used to be no-vice on the Mana forum which is where Marco and I first met.


Hi Chris,

I had no idea you were 'no-vice' - small world! :)

Do you miss the old Mana forum? I've tried to get Mr Pig to join but he's given up now on forums. Mind you that was about a year ago when I was running the infamous 'Hi-fi Corner', so if he sees this place now he might change his mind, and then again with Mikey's and my shenanigans here tonight he might not :lolsign:

Do you have contacts for some of the old crew?

Marco.

dmckean
22-10-2008, 00:39
Interesting link (the first one). The CineMag looks like another viable SUT option.

The CineMag works great and is very musical. It only cost me $150 to build but it took me six months to get around to it. That's part of the reason I don't mind paying Jim in the other thread.

Hagerman Audio Labs makes a step-up built around the Cinemags with a ton of loading options but he charges $649 for it.

http://www.haglabs.com/stepup.html

Historicus
22-10-2008, 06:42
Marco, grazie mille, for all your advices on the step up for my 103 Pro. Now I'm on search of the A23 because I'm too curious how it sounds together with the cartridge from Denon.
Ciao from Rome, Piero

Chris
22-10-2008, 07:29
Hi Marco,
Yes, I do miss the Mana Forum ´tho´of course "life was very different then" - and whatever anyone says, I don´t foresee ever removing my Phase 5 from under my Linn in fact one day I might even scout round for a couple of Soundstages to go to 7.
Pity no-one has taken up on a "New Mana" or at least JW could have pointed to a replacement material for the "balanced boards" - I have mislaid 2 of mine for my speaker bases and don´t know what best to use.
Also a shame about Mr. Pig - he was always a good read and a mine of suggestions for aging beginners like myself. I do see threads from familiar posters on different forums from time to time - even Parry (or was it Kilroy)? "Nuff said.
All the best,
Chris

griffo104
22-10-2008, 08:04
Blimey, so many things to disagree with Marco on this thread :lolsign:

I still find it very strange with people declaring the Lyras to be clinical. I've never found this in my setup. I've certainly never heard bass as well textured and with as much depth and detail, both in my own setup and several others I've been to visit (in bake offs otr at friends). I always welcome going back to listening to the Dorian and it's great even sound.

Listening to something like Squarepusher where the bass is making the walls tremble always puts a smile on my face and for me it;s still by far the best cartridge I've used for claissical music, it gets the seperation of instruments and scale spot on. Of course this is just personal preferences.

when I purchased the Orbe it had a DL103 on the end of the tonearm and I really couldn't wait to get it off. I really hated the thing. Of course I'm a bit more aware that a Rega based arm isn't the best to hear this cart now but judging from what people on the firums were saying at the time you wouldn't think that.

As for the DL304 (and DL301ii I also own), both these carts benefit hugely from going through a step-up. I've owned a DL304 and it needs a real quality active set up to get the most out of it, I've heard it doing much better things through a step up. The problem I have with the DL304 and DL301ii is they lack dynamics, imo, especially when compared to the Lyra cart and even comparing both to a Goldring Elite you realise how soft the bass performance from these carts are - even through a step up.

I keep meaning to revisit the DL103, just for curiosity more than anything, now realising that more weight would need to be added to the Technoarm. What I find so strange about this is people like Arthur from Funk using DL103 carts in his demos with just a bog standard RB300. He always seems happy enough with it.

Marco
22-10-2008, 08:42
Hi Dave,


The CineMag works great and is very musical. It only cost me $150 to build but it took me six months to get around to it. That's part of the reason I don't mind paying Jim in the other thread.

Hagerman Audio Labs makes a step-up built around the Cinemags with a ton of loading options but he charges $649 for it.

http://www.haglabs.com/stepup.html

Thanks for that. I think I might put all these links for good SUTs into a thread in 'The Artist's Palette' for useful future reference. That way people will know where to find them easily should they be looking to buy an SUT :)

Marco.

Marco
22-10-2008, 08:47
Marco, grazie mille, for all your advices on the step up for my 103 Pro. Now I'm on search of the A23 because I'm too curious how it sounds together with the cartridge from Denon.
Ciao from Rome, Piero

Prego, Piero. Non è niente :)

The best thing for you to do is email Tone Imports and find out who your nearest dealer is; then order one from there. I doubt you'll find any for sale on Ebay or second-hand.

Marco.

Marco
22-10-2008, 09:07
Hi Chris,


Yes, I do miss the Mana Forum ´tho´of course "life was very different then" - and whatever anyone says, I don´t foresee ever removing my Phase 5 from under my Linn in fact one day I might even scout round for a couple of Soundstages to go to 7.


Indeed; life was very different then, and there's a lot you can do now that perhaps you didn't know about before! I'll explain... I still have all my 'Mana' supports - *but* only my stainless steel 6-tier rack and speaker stands are 'genuine' Mana. I sold all my 'official' racks and Stages for good money and got identical replicas made for a fraction of the price from a local metal fabricator. If you get it done right they sound identical to the stuff JW sold, in fact better because you get it made in non-magnetic stainless steel instead of magnetic angle-iron! I've got tons of the stuff now, which would have cost me a small fortune from Mana... :eyebrows:

I've got contacts for all the stuff you need - powder coaters, glazers, balanced boards, spikes, etc. PM me and we can chat about getting you a couple of Stages and some balanced boards ;)


Pity no-one has taken up on a "New Mana" or at least JW could have pointed to a replacement material for the "balanced boards" - I have mislaid 2 of mine for my speaker bases and don´t know what best to use.


I've dealt with the latter issue - you have no worries on that score. With regard to the "New Mana" thing, JW and I discussed starting the business again under a new format but it never got off the ground before we ended up falling out - long story! I've thought about doing it myself, as I have all the right contacts, but I just haven't had the time with running my own art business and now this place. I know I could make it work and be profitable but perhaps some other time. I don't mind getting the odd few bits done for people, though.


Also a shame about Mr. Pig - he was always a good read and a mine of suggestions for aging beginners like myself. I do see threads from familiar posters on different forums from time to time - even Parry (or was it Kilroy)? "Nuff said.


I'm confident I'll get the piglet on here someday. There are also a few of the old crew on pfm, so perhaps they'll find their way here in due course.

Marco.

Marco
22-10-2008, 10:13
Hi Griffo,


Blimey, so many things to disagree with Marco on this thread


Well it'd be right bloody boring if everyone agreed with me all the time, so disagree away! :eyebrows:


I still find it very strange with people declaring the Lyras to be clinical. I've never found this in my setup. I've certainly never heard bass as well textured and with as much depth and detail, both in my own setup and several others I've been to visit (in bake offs otr at friends). I always welcome going back to listening to the Dorian and it's great even sound.


It's simply a matter of context. Don't get me wrong, if Lyras are your 'thing' they'll do the job better than most. I've owned a couple (a Helikon and Argo i) so I know exactly what they do. The thing is when you get a 103R or 103Pro working optimally (and I mean optimally) they just sound utterly sublime in every area, particularly in the bass, which trust me makes Lyras sound positively anaemic! The only area they lack slightly in is absolute detail retrieval at higher frequencies. If you want to dissect every nuance on a recording with forensic precision then you need a cartridge with a good fine-line or VDH stylus. However, when a 103R or Pro have been optimised to their maximum potential everything else is spot on in the most beguiling way.

The standard 103 is not in the same league for a variety of reasons so I will omit it from the discussion. The 'R', Pro, or 'SA' versions are where it's at with 103s.

Trouble is, getting a 103R or Pro to sound right (as it was intended by the manufacturer) is both difficult and expensive. First of all, you need a top-notch direct-drive or high-mass belt-drive T/T to hear it at its best (bouncy decks or Regas just won't do) and, most crucially, a high-mass arm with a detachable headshell from a similar era to when the 103 itself was produced (think Fidelity Research, SME 3012, if you have a deck big enough to take it, Denons own arms, AT broadcast, etc). It only works on the 1210's arm once the counterweight balance and existing headshell have been upgraded to something which adds more mass.

Once all that's been attended to, you then need to buy a suitable MC step-up transformer which loads the 103 correctly and provides the correct impedance and gain, and then run it through a top-notch MM valve phono stage, if you wish to maximise its capabilities. The last bit is optional but preferable.

Now tell me, how many people do you know with 103s that've gone to all that bother? The fact is the majority of people using 103s are only hearing a fraction of its potential, and it is *this* that it gets unfairly judged on. The 103 may initially be cheap to buy because it's made by a huge Japanese company like Denon, but getting it to perform optimally sure as hell isn't!


when I purchased the Orbe it had a DL103 on the end of the tonearm and I really couldn't wait to get it off. I really hated the thing. Of course I'm a bit more aware that a Rega based arm isn't the best to hear this cart now but judging from what people on the firums were saying at the time you wouldn't think that.


Exactly. Like I said, that's the problem. The 103 just isn't meant for set-ups like that. Cartridge and tonearm fashions have changed dramatically since the 103's era and so you simply can't use it with most of today's ancillaries if you have any notion of hearing it properly.


As for the DL304 (and DL301ii I also own), both these carts benefit hugely from going through a step-up. I've owned a DL304 and it needs a real quality active set up to get the most out of it, I've heard it doing much better things through a step up. The problem I have with the DL304 and DL301ii is they lack dynamics, imo, especially when compared to the Lyra cart and even comparing both to a Goldring Elite you realise how soft the bass performance from these carts are - even through a step up.


I don't doubt that the 304 needs quality ancillaries to get it working optimally, but most people I know who use them get very good results simply running them through good quality active MC stages. It tends to be more the 103 and DL-S1 which are talked about in conjunction with SUTs. I suspect that Denons own models are produced more with the 103 in mind than the 304. However, I believe that all low output MCs perform better through specifically-matched SUTs than through even the best active MC stages. There is simply less noise that way, and noise is the main enemy where phono stages and moving coil cartridges are concerned.

Also, your DL301 sounds nothing like an optimally set-up 103R or Pro, so until you hear what the latter sounds like (perhaps by visiting me sometime?) you'll never be able to appreciate what I'm getting at and why I think Lyras sound so 'frigid' in comparison ;)


I keep meaning to revisit the DL103, just for curiosity more than anything, now realising that more weight would need to be added to the Technoarm.


My advice is only do it if you're willing to go the whole hog as I've described. Any 'halfway house' measures will only result in disappointment and ultimately the wrong impression about what a 103R or Pro are truly capable of.


What I find so strange about this is people like Arthur from Funk using DL103 carts in his demos with just a bog standard RB300. He always seems happy enough with it.

Yes, I know, but Arthur is Arthur. I know him quite well - he's a lovely chap and an extremely talented designer, but at shows his demonstrations - how shall I put it - are not set-up for ultimate sound quality... He uses fairly bog-standard ancillaries simply to show differences between his deck and a full Linn one, which are always readily apparent in my experience; the 103 fitted on the Rega 'does the job' in that sense. You'll notice that whenever the Sapphire is demonstrated by a Funk Firm dealer there are no 103s anywhere in sight! :)

Marco.

griffo104
22-10-2008, 11:06
Marco,
When I went looking for a new cart to have a play with I refused to go near the usual suspects with regards to forums. I tend to find forums, especially on our side of the pond, tend follow fashions quite strongly only for them to slag off the component they raved about so much previously.

I did a LOT of research in to carts and found a lot of 'happy' DL103 owners (and not just the extended models you mention) were doing a lot more with them then simply slapping them on the end of a Rega of Linn arm. this really opened my eyes up to the whole hifi thing. the other pattern I noticed was how many serios vinly lovers, and I mean very serious, hating all forms of digital playback, all pretty much ignored any epensive cart. So many seemed to be happy with the cheaper end of the market - the baby Benz Micro bing particularly popular.

I chose the DL301 for various reasons. Their popularity in Japan, where they simply don't bother with the DL304, it;s stylus profile, the exceptional mid band and tonal balance. It has an amazingly natural sounding treble.

I have the extra heacy weight that comes with the Technoarm, so I would just need to add more weight at the headshell end but I may well go out and get a DL103R at some point. I have the Denon AU-300LC which, as you mention, get matched up to these carts quite a lot.

It may be a interesting few months.

Historicus
22-10-2008, 12:01
Marco, thanks I just found a second hand A23 (practically new of 2006) after putting an announce on the german forum of the Audio Analogue Association. Cost about Eur 350. After I have ordered it Keith Aschenbrenner answered to my mail: A23 cost 485,00 €uro plus 24,00 Euro Premium shipping outside Germany. Here the link to the shop in Frankfurt www.auditorium23.de.
Do you know the Yamamoto YC 03-Stereo or Mono with their set-ups (SUT-01 or SUT-02)? They had a great success in Germany for the neutral sound and they're also called the Koetsus of the common man.

Maybe Griffo104 is not so informed that a 103PRO is completely different referred to the 103. The first one is a professional release with a great tonal response; a totally different sound from the original 103 or 103R with whom can't compete.

Marco
22-10-2008, 12:08
Griffo,


When I went looking for a new cart to have a play with I refused to go near the usual suspects with regards to forums. I tend to find forums, especially on our side of the pond, tend follow fashions quite strongly only for them to slag off the component they raved about so much previously.


Indeed, I totally agree. It's ridiculous and it's something we've strived not to create on AOS. I hope you can notice this :)


I did a LOT of research in to carts and found a lot of 'happy' DL103 owners (and not just the extended models you mention) were doing a lot more with them then simply slapping them on the end of a Rega of Linn arm. this really opened my eyes up to the whole hifi thing.


Personally, I've only seen this sort of thing happening recently, certainly in the UK. I think elsewhere in Europe and in the US the 103, and the optimising of it thereof, has been going on and been used for a long time. I first used the 103 (in standard form) and played around with SUTs, high-mass headshells, etc, in 1982 where I used a 103 into a Lentek SUT, which was battery operated, in conjunction with a Sondex S230 integrated amplifier. My deck in those days was an Ariston RD11S with a Linn Basik LV-V arm, but it was suitably 'fettled' for use with a 103. Over the years I've gradually learned more and more about getting the most from the 103, until now where I consider myself unashamedly and immodestly as somewhat of an expert on the matter ;)


the other pattern I noticed was how many serios vinly lovers, and I mean very serious, hating all forms of digital playback, all pretty much ignored any epensive cart. So many seemed to be happy with the cheaper end of the market - the baby Benz Micro bing particularly popular.


It's probably because so many 'hi-end' cartridges are a rip-off, and I mean in terms of sound-per-pound value, not in a nasty or devious sense. When you consider, for example, that a Denon DL-110 or 160 costs well under £100 and can compete with or outperform designs costing many times that amount, and that cartridges ultimately wear out, rendering them almost worthless, then it puts things into perspective. Snapper, for example, retired his £2k Linn Akiva for a DL-160, and he uses a fully tricked out LP12! The AT-33PTG is another case in point, and outperforms many much more expensive designs, the same as with your DL-301.

I've had expensive Koetsus, Lyras, Transfigurations, Sumikos, Linns, Dynavectors, and plenty of other cartridges over the years and none of them get near to giving me the performance I enjoy with the 103R or Pro and their particular presentational qualities. It's the old economies of scale thing again - why pay a 'boutique' cartridge manufacturer £2000 for a cartridge that performance-wise the likes of Denon or Audio Technica could make for £200? It's just nonsense unless you're a badge snob or covet 'audiophile jewellery' for the sake of it. There are, however, a few specialised manufacturers of hi-end cartridges whose designs really do offer something special and (arguably) are worth the money, but those are few and far between and you pay accordingly! The 'pseudo hi-end' devices below that are just not worth the cost, in my opinion.


I chose the DL301 for various reasons. Their popularity in Japan, where they simply don't bother with the DL304, it;s stylus profile, the exceptional mid band and tonal balance. It has an amazingly natural sounding treble.


It's a great cartridge in the areas you describe but it lacks the 'balls' of a 103. All hi-fi equipment is a compromise and cartridges are no exception. Quite simply, I would not trade the 'funky' factor or the beautifully cavernous, textured, 'slammy' bass and liquid, valve-like midrange, which I've only heard from the likes of a 103 or Ortofon SPU, for any amount of "amazingly natural sounding treble". As they say 'you pays your money and takes your choice'.

Much of it of course depends on what music you listen to most. If you're mainly into classical, choral and acoustic music then quite rightly you would use a cartridge which compliments that type of music. If that represented my sole musical diet then a 103 would most certainly not be my cartridge of choice. However as I mostly listen to rock music and beat-driven material, using a cartridge which does bass *so* bloody well in the most beguiling way imaginable is an absolute no-brainer! :gig:


I have the extra heacy weight that comes with the Technoarm, so I would just need to add more weight at the headshell end but I may well go out and get a DL103R at some point. I have the Denon AU-300LC which, as you mention, get matched up to these carts quite a lot.


Keep us posted on how you get on. I suspect though that the Tecnoarm isn't a good match for a 103 regardless of adding mass to the headshell. In my experience it has characteristics in the midrange and top end which don't marry well with the 103. However, as always, I'm quite happy to be proved wrong! :)

Marco.

Marco
22-10-2008, 12:30
Hi Piero,


Marco, thanks I just found a second hand A23 (practically new of 2006) after putting an announce on the german forum of the Audio Analogue Association. Cost about Eur 350. After I have ordered it Keith Aschenbrenner answered to my mail: A23 cost 485,00 €uro plus 24,00 Euro Premium shipping outside Germany. Here the link to the shop in Frankfurt www.auditorium23.de.


That's great. Well done! :)

This is a very interesting read: http://www.auditorium-23.de/Accessories/Transformers.html particularly this bit on the A23:

[From the website]
I have reason to believe that its designer, Keith Aschenbrenner, voiced this unit around the basic SPU Classic, which like the Denon 103, is all about tonality in the same sense that the folks at Audio Note UK claim their components are. Both cartridges favor the body of notes over the leading edge and weight over speed.


That's EXACTLY why I like cartridges like the DL-103, SPU, and EMT TSD-15. It's where I'm at with vinyl sound and why I don't like Lyras, which represent the other end of the spectrum. Griffo, take note ;) It's interesting that Audio Note were mentioned as in my opinion they're one of the few modern cartridge manufacturers that get this aspect of cartridge performance correct. But then both AN designs and the 103 use Alnico magnets... I'm convinced that the Alnico factor is significant.

This (from the website) is also spot-on!


The A23 Denon 103 step up is a perfect complement for the cartridge of the same name. Played through it, the Denon 103 maintains its body and weight, but its apparent speed and resolution improve dramatically, especially throughout the upper registers.


That's exactly what happens when a 103 is used with an A23 and why, until you use one (or can make one like it), you haven't heard a 103 properly!


Do you know the Yamamoto YC 03-Stereo or Mono with their set-ups (SUT-01 or SUT-02)? They had a great success in Germany for the neutral sound and they're also called the Koetsus of the common man.


I know of Yamamoto SUTs but not cartridges, although I've not heard any. I first discovered them on the Japanese website where I bought my 103Pro.


Maybe Griffo104 is not so informed that a 103PRO is completely different referred to the 103. The first one is a professional release with a great tonal response; a totally different sound from the original 103 or 103R with whom can't compete.

:eyebrows: I think he's reading and learning fast!

Marco.

griffo104
22-10-2008, 12:54
As a hifi geek I'mnow fully aware of the top end DL103s. As mentioned I did a lot of research :)

The one I would also like to get my hands on would be the Zu Audio modded one which addresses a lot of the problems with the basic DL103.

I was reading just yesterday that a dealer in the UK is still stating that DL103 will be a decent job in Rega based arm and yet with a bit of research it becomes quite apparent that this isn't so. I a gree with Marco the Technoarm may not be the best match with a DL103 to fully appreciate what it can do.

My musical taste a re hugley varies. From indie to metal to punk to industrial to jazz to claissical. I don't mind the odd well done dance music either (Unkle and that kind of thing). One of the things I dislike about the DL301ii isthat it just doesn't give you that sense of scale and dynamics that a full on orchestra shouwld have. for chamber music it's much better, the tonal and timbral capabilities of the cart really shine through.

I've realised, as I get older and (hopefully) wiser, there is no single , simple solution. As with most things in life it's not as easy as a reviewer or some bloke on a forum would some times like you to believe it is. there's a very good reason why some many decks were modded and redesigned to have more than one toneamr on, especially for the Japanese market who seem to appreciate the multiple solutions to a given problem.

As for SUTs then, yes, running my phono in MM mode brings worryingly superb silences to sound, it's just so queit, but my current experiences with SUTs are bringing a little less detail and seem to soften the sound up a little bit.

Having grown up a cd boy I suppose I've noticed this more as I never had a deck until I was 28 (blimey nearly 9 years of analogue bliss now), but that's another discussion for another day - the CD propaganda machine :steam:

Marco
22-10-2008, 14:17
Griffo,


The one I would also like to get my hands on would be the Zu Audio modded one which addresses a lot of the problems with the basic DL103.


I've heard it. It's very good if you want to 'freshen up' the 103 and make it sound more 'hi-fi'-like, but not if you value the traditional traits which make the 103 special. The Zu mods lose some of the 'romance' but improve certain sonic aspects of the 103, which will either be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your priorities. Aesthetically though it looks lovely!


I was reading just yesterday that a dealer in the UK is still stating that DL103 will be a decent job in Rega based arm and yet with a bit of research it becomes quite apparent that this isn't so. I a gree with Marco the Technoarm may not be the best match with a DL103 to fully appreciate what it can do.


My advice is to ignore any dealer who says that a 103 will work optimally in a Rega arm. He's either talking bollocks in some way to further his business or simply hasn't got the necessary experience to know better. Yep, mate, I'd not bother with a 103 in a Tecnoarm as I don't think you'd get the results you're looking for. No doubt it's a good match with your 301, though.


My musical taste a re hugley varies. From indie to metal to punk to industrial to jazz to claissical. I don't mind the odd well done dance music either (Unkle and that kind of thing).


Don't get me wrong, so does mine - I listen to all sorts, but when I feel like playing some rock or dance music then I want it to be 'pummelled' along with the drive and 'heft' that in my experience only a 103 and SPU (and classic cartridges of their ilk) can manage. Anything else is just weedy and ‘limp-wristed’ in comparison! As long as gentler and more subtle types of music are rendered satisfactorily (to me) then I'm happy with the trade-off :)


One of the things I dislike about the DL301ii isthat it just doesn't give you that sense of scale and dynamics that a full on orchestra shouwld have. for chamber music it's much better, the tonal and timbral capabilities of the cart really shine through.


Yep, and there's your trade-off. I can tell you now that no matter how well set-up or partnered a 103 is it will not do detail retrieval and 'delicacy' as well as a 301 or 304 (or any cartridge with a fine-line stylus) for that matter. However, it will do it about 95% as well when set-up has been optimised and it's used with the right deck and arm. What you will get though is bass to die for and a sense of scale and power through the lower registers that neither of those two cartridges (or any 'delicate' sounding fine-line type) could dream of...


I've realised, as I get older and (hopefully) wiser, there is no single , simple solution. As with most things in life it's not as easy as a reviewer or some bloke on a forum would some times like you to believe it is. there's a very good reason why some many decks were modded and redesigned to have more than one toneamr on, especially for the Japanese market who seem to appreciate the multiple solutions to a given problem.


That's absolutely right. There is no 'one true path' to audio nirvana, and quite simply anyone who possesses such an absolutist mindset will never have a great sounding system which is able to play all genres of music with aplomb. The Japanese are far more adept at knowing what to buy with hi-fi and getting the most out of it than we will ever be. The Germans and Greeks are also of a similar ilk. In the UK hi-fi enthusiasts are in the main Ebay bargain hunters flitting unsatisfactorily from system to system in search of some 'magic' they'll never find or badge snobs dropping huge sums of cash on 'statement' products which actually deliver very little in terms of genuine sonic or musical satisfaction. As they say in Glasgow, 'all fur and nae knickers'!


As for SUTs then, yes, running my phono in MM mode brings worryingly superb silences to sound, it's just so queit, but my current experiences with SUTs are bringing a little less detail and seem to soften the sound up a little bit.


Yes, you're right, but the softness you describe is simply a trait of the AU-300. It's a good little device but it has its limitations. You need to try something better to fully appreciate what a good SUT can do. There will be no 'softness', I guarantee you! IMO, it's unquestionably the best way to play music through a low-output, low impedance, moving coil cartridge.


Having grown up a cd boy I suppose I've noticed this more as I never had a deck until I was 28 (blimey nearly 9 years of analogue bliss now), but that's another discussion for another day - the CD propaganda machine :steam:

I think you mean the DIGITAL propaganda machine. CD is pretty good when done well, and has its place, but it will never be able to compete sonically with vinyl done well. I'm hopeful that these new hi-res computer formats will be as good as the 'digiphiles' are making out, but until I hear it trounce my vinyl set-up the jury is out... I've witnessed too many false dawns with digital before to get too prematurely excited!

Marco.

Historicus
23-10-2008, 19:41
I posted my announce on the Auditorium 23 step-up on the german AAA (Audio Analogue Association) forum and after buying a used A23 some geek wrote me that this setup is one of the most overrated product and sounds even worse then the little Denon Au-300 step up ... anyway Aschenbrenner has lots of enemies in his country, nemo profeta in patria as latins say!
About the A23 when I'll test it I will know something more. At least, I could claim my compatriot Marco!

Marco
23-10-2008, 19:51
Haha... :lol:

Piero,

Quegli biscari sono da vero proprio stupido. Le cose che pensono loro non è importante! Sono securo che il A23 è una cosa molto speciale ;)

I better not write in Italian any more as it's not fair on our UK members...

I've owned the little AU-300 - it's good but not in the same league as the A23. Let us know how you get on when it arrives :)

Marco.

Mike
23-10-2008, 20:57
Quegli biscari sono da vero proprio stupido. Le cose che pensono loro non è importante! Sono securo che il A23 è una cosa molto speciale

Babelfish translation:


Those biscari are from true own stupid. The things that pensono they not and important! They are securo that a23 and a thing much special one


:lol::lol::lol:

Marco
23-10-2008, 21:26
Hahahaha... That shows you just how shite on-line translators are! :lolsign:

Would you like the proper translation?

Marco.

dmckean
24-10-2008, 03:33
Hi Steve,



Like this? http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/Suits_Me/Brianboards03-04-06238.jpg :)

They're excellent old things and have soul, emotion, and realistic 'tone' in spades, similar to the DL-103 and SPU - exactly what is missing with about 95% of modern cartridges. Any true vinyl aficionado should do themselves a favour and hear one with a suitable turntable and tonearm. For a similar thing try a Shure SC35C, which is the modern equivalent (the body is unfortunately plastic but the generator and stylus assembly, though detachable, are similar):

http://www.bswusa.com//product_popup.asp?product=SC35C&image=http://168.75.125.68/assets/product_images/large/shur_sc35c.jpg

It's touted these days as a 'DJ/scratch cartridge', but mounted on the right turntable and arm, it can sound truly magical (it also has bass to die for) - and it's cheap as chips, as with the DL-103 for very similar reasons (economies of scale).



Lyras are clinical, frigid, things in comparison. Jonathan Carr seems like a lovely chap, but I hate the way he voices his cartridges!!



For an elegant solution, since you've got a detachable headshell arm, use one of these - 18g mass and with almost zero resonant properties:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Audio-Technica/product/Audio-Technica_AT-LH18,OCC_Head_Shell.html

But the cost might be an anathema for your D.I.Y sensibilities ;)

Marco.


The Shure SC35C scares me with it's 4.0 to 5.0 grams tracking. Does it really need that much tracking force?

Historicus
24-10-2008, 04:49
Grazie Marco BUT you forgot our language, don't bother when I studied in Germany I did it too :-)
Anyway, corrected sounds it so (in one phrase about 6 errors, good rate!):
Quei biscari sono da vero proprio stupidi. Le cose che pensano loro non sono importanti! Sono sicuro che il A23 sia una cosa molto speciale.

The mentioned translator is UNIQUE

Marco
24-10-2008, 07:01
LOL. Grazie, Piero. I don't get much opportunity to write in Italian these days, so obviously I'm a bit rusty! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
24-10-2008, 07:05
The Shure SC35C scares me with it's 4.0 to 5.0 grams tracking. Does it really need that much tracking force?

Hi Dave,

You can get away with 3g, and it sounds pretty good at that. People get unjustifiably concerned about high VTF - the fact is there's more chance of a cartridge causing damage to records bouncing about and mistraking at a 1g (it happens) than snugly tracking grooves at 3 or even 5g. The worst damage of all is caused by a worn stylus tracking at anything! Worry not. The SC35C is superb for the money. Again, like the 103, you need a high-mass headshell and the right tonearm to get it to work properly.

That done, it's a 'beast from hell' into a good tube MM phono stage! :gig:

Marco.

dmckean
24-10-2008, 19:35
Hi Dave,

You can get away with 3g, and it sounds pretty good at that. People get unjustifiably concerned about high VTF - the fact is there's more chance of a cartridge causing damage to records bouncing about and mistraking at a 1g (it happens) than snugly tracking grooves at 3 or even 5g. The worst damage of all is caused by a worn stylus tracking at anything! Worry not. The SC35C is superb for the money. Again, like the 103, you need a high-mass headshell and the right tonearm to get it to work properly.

That done, it's a 'beast from hell' into a good tube MM phono stage! :gig:

Marco.

I might pick one up just to play around with then. For $35 including shipping how can you go wrong?

I recently picked up the Zu version of the 103R new for the same price as the standard Zu 103. I've got about 30 hours on it so it still has some breaking in to do but so far I've been impressed. I'll post more once I've had a few more weeks with it.

Marco
25-10-2008, 08:14
Hi Dave,

Keep us posted on what you think of the Zu as it beds in. When I heard one (admittedly at a show) it was good but I felt that some of the 'romance' had been stripped away from the 103, albeit it was better from a hi-fi perspective. It would be interesting to know if this was the intrinsic effect of the mods or an artefact of the system the Zu was demonstrated in.

Yep, you can't lose with the Shure, especially in the States! If you go for one let us know how you get on :)

Marco.

Historicus
05-11-2008, 22:46
My Auditorium 23 step up for the 103 Pro arrived and I'm impressed on how good it sounds now. It has a better high and bass output, great dynamics, very balanced.

For DIY Projects you can buy 2 MuMetal isolated Haufe capsules T-7883 for about 120 Eur and build your A23 by yourself.

The 103R, that needs more power, sounds better with Denon's AU 300.

Marco
05-11-2008, 23:40
Ciao Piero,

Nice one. I'm glad that you managed to fix your original problem :)

Interesting about the Haufe transformers - did you open it up to find out? I'm sure our resident DL-103 fans that are handy with a soldering iron will have taken note...

Incidentally, the A23 works just fine with the 103R. The 103R, in my experience, also sounds far better through the A23 than the AU-300. The AU-S1 though is a different matter ;)

Marco.

dmckean
06-11-2008, 05:02
My Auditorium 23 step up for the 103 Pro arrived and I'm impressed on how good it sounds now. It has a better high and bass output, great dynamics, very balanced.

For DIY Projects you can buy 2 MuMetal isolated Haufe capsules T-7883 for about 120 Eur and build your A23 by yourself.

The 103R, that needs more power, sounds better with Denon's AU 300.

This isn't the first time I've heard A23s were Haufe transformers but this is the first time I've seen a model number.

Marco
06-11-2008, 08:51
Are you any good with a soldering iron then, Dave? ;)

This is useful information for anyone into D.I.Y because the reason the A23 sounds so good is because the transformers match the DL-103, 'R' or 'Pro' so well.

Marco.

Chris
06-11-2008, 10:10
If anyone can tell me (technically retarded) how best to go about this, I think I´ll have a shot at it. Apart from a box and input and output terminals , what else would be needed.
Oh, and a source for these trannies, please.
Cheers

Historicus
06-11-2008, 12:51
The Haufe capsules are built in the phono imput of EMT (950, 948,938), to be precise model T-890 (1:10) and T-451 (1:7).
Here you find the data sheets of all the Haufe capsules
http://audio.kubarth.com/rundfunk/index.cgi
This is the Haufe site http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de/html/profil.html
Some other good capsules are Amplino TM3 or Lundahl LL9206 (http://www.kandkaudio.com/mccartsetup.html).
On the german AAA-Forum was a great talk about auditorium 23 and the Haufe capsules because for some the price of the first was too high related to these built in capsules. Mr. Aschenbrenner's success in Germany (import of Shindo and Verdier and self designed speaker, cables and transformers) created lot of envies, as latin say "nemo profeta in patria!" and that's why he sells in the US very well!

Jensen publishes even a good Moving Coil Cartridges/Transformers Table to select the right step up http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mc.html

dmckean
07-11-2008, 01:38
The Haufe capsules are built in the phono imput of EMT (950, 948,938), to be precise model T-890 (1:10) and T-451 (1:7).
Here you find the data sheets of all the Haufe capsules
http://audio.kubarth.com/rundfunk/index.cgi
This is the Haufe site http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de/html/profil.html
Some other good capsules are Amplino TM3 or Lundahl LL9206 (http://www.kandkaudio.com/mccartsetup.html).
On the german AAA-Forum was a great talk about auditorium 23 and the Haufe capsules because for some the price of the first was too high related to these built in capsules. Mr. Aschenbrenner's success in Germany (import of Shindo and Verdier and self designed speaker, cables and transformers) created lot of envies, as latin say "nemo profeta in patria!" and that's why he sells in the US very well!

Jensen publishes even a good Moving Coil Cartridges/Transformers Table to select the right step up http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mc.html

I don't speak german so I'm not really sure if it's still possible to buy these transformers from Haufe. I'm happy with my Cinemags but I wouldn't mind seeing what the Auditorium 23 is all about on the cheap.

dmckean
07-11-2008, 01:44
Are you any good with a soldering iron then, Dave? ;)

This is useful information for anyone into D.I.Y because the reason the A23 sounds so good is because the transformers match the DL-103, 'R' or 'Pro' so well.

Marco.

Marco, if you buy the right RCA jacks you don't even need to solder.

Chris
07-11-2008, 09:03
I´ve emailed Haufe (in English) about the best way to get hold of a pair. If I get any joy, I´ll let you know.
Chris

Marco
07-11-2008, 09:10
Nice one, Chris. Keep us posted :)

Marco.

Chris
08-11-2008, 21:03
Assuming I manage to source these trannies, is there any way I might incorporate a balance control in the box - my Sugden a21Se doesn´t provide balance and I am sick and tired of my room/decor induced off centre image. I don´t doubt this is a bit off-track but is it possible using a top notch potentiometer somehow or am I way out of line.

Chris
10-11-2008, 19:22
Marco,
you have a pm.

Marco
10-11-2008, 22:05
Hi Chris,

Got it - thanks :)

I've had friends round today so been a bit busy :smoking:

Marco.

anubisgrau
18-11-2008, 22:48
I was quite enthusiastic when I've managed to source a NOS AU-320 SUT last year to use it with plain 103. However it turned out there was no competition with a built in trannies in EAR 864 I owned, also with EAR 834P which is my temporary solution (not sure if I would agree with so much raving about it).

I'm currently testing a rather wonderful sounding RIAA made by a local designer, fully valved (5Y3 rect., ECC82 & 83) which is much more engaging and natural sounding than stock 834P.

However it's again that AU-320 is underperforming - at 40 ohm setting there's hardly any serious bass, slam & dynamic.

It makes me wonder if AU-320 is actually made for a 14ohm 103R, and not for a 40 ohm 103, though it seems that lots of Cinemag users have lots of joy at 37.5 ohm primary wiring.

Is there any kosher way how to lower an impedance of the 103 that's seen by the windings?

Or should I give it up - could be it's just a bad product and that's it.

Thanks for your input.

PS. forgot to add, current testings are done on 1210, 3g extra weight on a stock headshell (tomorrow i'm putting 5g), a diff. mat and M6 (?) screws instead of its stock rubber feet. my stabi 2/stogi is still being overhauled...

Prince of Darkness
19-11-2008, 12:18
Loading for MC cartridges can be a complex matter (unlike MM's which are designed for a 47K load). Normally, correct loading is achieved by a combination of the step up transformer and the loading resistor on the input of the phono stage. An alternative is to load the primary with the required value instead. There is some information on this on these threads from the World Designs Forum.

http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2468&highlight=primary+loading

http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2442

In practice it may be worth experimenting with a number of values of load to find what works best for you.:)

anubisgrau
19-11-2008, 18:38
OK i have to ask the following:

what impedance is auditorium 23 SUT made for? i have to ask this cause i can see both 103R and 103pro are mentioned and they are AFAIK 14 and 40 ohm which IMHO can't be run through the similar primaries succesfully?

can anyone clarify this?

Historicus
20-11-2008, 21:14
I think that the impedance is about 40 Ohm. The A23 step up is studied for the normal 103. Anyway the constructor doesn't tell the impedance but the Haufs are for 40 Ohm.

Another question about 103PRO: with which weight do you use it for better results. I know that someone uses it with more weight then the standard one.

anubisgrau
20-11-2008, 22:30
historicus, you have PM

anubisgrau
24-11-2008, 23:16
although my 103 is not pro, maybe it's worth of mentioning

if you have a chance to get any old westrex trannies, don't hesitate

as i'm writing this, i'm switching between the stock SUT in 834p and westrex (a friend stucked them in a nice wooden box) in a real disbelief.

so much more natural, airy, real, softer, sparkly..... a real music event in the room.

btw, i was trying to put weights both under and above the stock technics shell but i couldn't as bolts were not long enough, i need to get the new ones tomorrow. however i've used an opportunity of dismantling everything to check a trick someone described somewhere - that 103 needs such a loose coupling so it even benefits from placing a thin wire between the plastic body and the shell (or weight) so there's actually no contact surface anymore - except for the wire. i cut a small piece of an (invisibly) insulated transformer wire (don't ask me about a diameter, pretty thin, say 0.3mm or less) and shaped it so it follows a flat top of 103 around the holes for the bolts. i placed it exactly between the cartridge and the weight (under the shell), plus i added a tiny strip of thin plastic foil across the bolts (a part of stanton 500 package) between the wire and the weights.... and played the music....

very very pleased with what i've heard so far, definitely more overall control, tighter bass and more definitions in the mids. more speed, better transients too.

i'm listening to tchaikovsky's concert for violine and orchestra (DG, abbado) now and the violin of nathan milstein has never sounded so fast and natural

if i could only keep this bloody westrex trannies.....:)

dmckean
09-01-2009, 06:19
Hi Dave,

Keep us posted on what you think of the Zu as it beds in. When I heard one (admittedly at a show) it was good but I felt that some of the 'romance' had been stripped away from the 103, albeit it was better from a hi-fi perspective. It would be interesting to know if this was the intrinsic effect of the mods or an artefact of the system the Zu was demonstrated in.

Yep, you can't lose with the Shure, especially in the States! If you go for one let us know how you get on :)

Marco.


I've had plenty of time with both now. The Zu 103R sounds a lot like the stock Denon 103R. I do notice a little less sibliance on the inner grooves. I wish I had another table and arm to try it on as I suspicion it was designed to work better on arms where the 103 isn't normally ideal.

As for the Shure, I like it! It's the best cartridge for playing old Sabbath albums I've ever run across yet. I like it in the same way I like my old Panasonic headphones. Not exactly hi-fi but sounds great to me.

niklasthedolphin
09-01-2009, 09:47
I have read on the audiocircle forum that Marco owns a Denon 103 Pro as I do.
A really great cartridge that has really more hights then the 103R and simply a better sound of another classe. I'm really happy about it (I use the 103Pro with a (japanese) Ortofon AS-309 S 13inch tonearm on an old Garrard 401 with a massive german plynth that sounds like a little Verdier!

I want to ask here if someone tried the step up of HIGHPHONIC HP-T5S with this cartridge and if it can compete with Denon's AU-S1 ?

Actually I use a twicked (better cables and cinches) Denon AU-300 that I want anyway to improve with a better product and that's why I'm asking your advice.

Ciao from Rome,

Piero

Ortofon happens to be danish.

"dolph"

Prince of Darkness
09-01-2009, 11:20
Although Ortofon is definately Danish, it appears that the AS-309 S arm is made in Japan by Jelco.:)

Marco
09-01-2009, 11:46
Indeed, Kevin - as are many arms from well-known 'prestigious' brands made by Jelco, and at a fraction of the price they sell at when supplied with the 'correct' badge!

Dolph, get a grip. Even if the Ortofon arm had been made in Denmark you're just being pedantic. If you've got nothing constructive to post other than nit-picking on small details (I presume you're familiar with that term?) then please post nothing and keep your 'pearls of wisdom' for other threads when you may add something of more value :)

Ciao Piero,

Sorry, I missed this:


I want to ask here if someone tried the step up of HIGHPHONIC HP-T5S with this cartridge and if it can compete with Denon's AU-S1 ?

Actually I use a twicked (better cables and cinches) Denon AU-300 that I want anyway to improve with a better product and that's why I'm asking your advice.


The Highphonic is a no-brainer with the 103Pro, as the two were designed together. It is an excellent combination and better than with the AU-300. The AU-S1 is even better but that's considerably more expensive.

You do know that Highphonic are the ones who redesign the 103 and make it into a 103Pro? 'Highphonic' are basically a small group of ex-Denon employees who've left and set up their own company manufacturing a range of products under their own brand name.

I've now moved on my 103Pro after buying a 103SA, which in my opinion is the 'daddy' of all the 103s. I would have kept it, but I simply have too many cartridges already to warrant having another.

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
09-01-2009, 11:48
Although Ortofon is definately Danish, it appears that the AS-309 S arm is made in Japan by Jelco.:)

Thank you for that info.

Didn't know.
Not that it has much of my attention..................but good to know.

"dolph"

Historicus
12-01-2009, 16:59
The more I burn in the Auditorium23 with 103PRO the better it sounds.
Now it sounds like a higher class cartridge as Koetsu or similar ones with a grace together with a great personality!

Grazie Marco per il tuo consiglio!

Marco
14-01-2009, 12:21
Prego, Piero. Non e niente :)

I also agree with your evaluation. That's precisely why I'm using a 103SA (and before a 103Pro) and not a Koetsu, saving a fortune in the process! ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
14-01-2009, 12:44
My problem is that Haufe will not say which transformer is actually used in the Auditorium 23. They have said it is not the T 7883, so which one is it?

Thanks

Dave

Marco
14-01-2009, 13:04
No idea, Dave. You'll have to photograph the ones used in my A23 when I come down. Hopefully that will help you to identify them on the Haufe website :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
14-01-2009, 14:13
Yes I supose so. The armplates are on order. Anyway you can photo the transformers?

Dave

Historicus
14-01-2009, 22:33
Ciao Marco, can you tell us, please, something more about the differences between the 103SA and 103 Pro?
Grazie,
Piero

Chris
18-01-2009, 20:23
I think it´s quite understandable from a quantity customer/supplier POV, them not wanting to state categorically that the trannies used in the Auditorium are the T-7883 but if you look at their data sheets it would seem to be the only one to match cartridge specs (40ohms and 47kohms). Maybe the 23 trannies are one-off specials but from my one-off correspondence with Haufe I get the impression they make trannies but are not over-interested in hi-fi or what people do with them after. I have never heard a 23 but I can assure you the T-7883s walk all over my AT- 650 at 40 ohms so they must be worth a try at the price. Who knows? maybe they´re even better than the 23 ones.

Dave Cawley
18-01-2009, 22:17
They said they are not. They should know!

Marco
18-01-2009, 23:19
Dave,

I think that it's best just to wait and check out the ones in my A23 when I come down - hopefully that won't be too long, eh? :)

Marco.

Dave Cawley
19-01-2009, 08:09
Hopefully not! A new batch of 750D's are expected today, but the arm plates are still not here. I suppose it's my definition or otherwise of "working days" ?

Dave

Marco
19-01-2009, 20:00
LOL. Just keep me in the loop Dave and I'll wing my way down there quicker than you can say "belt-drives are shit!" :lol:

Marco.

scoobs
27-03-2009, 12:17
Fellas
Did anyone get to the bottom of the issue regarding which trannies the A23 actually uses and are they really the best to use with a 103R or SA which are 14ohm.

Dave Cawley
27-03-2009, 12:25
No one will say, :confused: but I measured one and will try to get some made. :kiss:

:bag:

Dave

scoobs
27-03-2009, 12:41
I only ask because my trigger finger is poised, ready to order a 103 from Dave, but I use an A23 and am not sure what flavour 103 to go for.

Dave Cawley
27-03-2009, 12:44
Any 103 will work very well with the A23. :kiss:

:bag:

Dave

Marco
27-03-2009, 12:45
I've not heard anything better *so far* than the A23 and HA-500 with any 103 - 'R' , 'Pro' and 'SA' included, but I'm expecting great things from Dave's SUT when it's born :smoking:

One I've not heard is Denon's own AU-S1, but I'd imagine it's quite similar in balance to the HA-500 head amp. A future project is to upgrade the HA-500 with high-grade modern caps, resistors, etc, and the PSU to something beefier in a separate case, all of which I'm sure will improve its performance further.

To be honest, I'd be very surprised if the AU-S1 is better than the A23, given the latter's 'provenance', but you know me, I might import one some day just to find out ;)

Marco.

Barry
04-04-2009, 21:18
a few months ago i got my hands on an old 1962 shure M3D, they are quite rare broadcasting mm cartridge, and where in the same price league as an spu, it has an orginal stylus, but it is damaged..

steve

The M3D was my first cartridge, bought fourty years ago in 1969. I think I paid £7 for it; I'm sure an Ortofon SPU would have cost considerably more then. I only bought it because I was having great trouble in obtaining a B&O SP6, the cartridge that I really wanted. When asked what the Shure equivalent was I was told the M3D. I used it for about a year then moved on to the M55E.

I am intrigued that you rate the M3D along with Denons and Lyras. You don't seem to be alone; an M3D went on eBay recently for £87 !

Regards

Marco
05-04-2009, 10:55
Well, I've just won this little baby on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130296229316&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

:cool:

I'll report my impressions when it arrives :)

Marco.

Barry
05-04-2009, 21:51
Well, I've just won this little baby on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130296229316&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

:cool:

I'll report my impressions when it arrives :)

Marco.

Yep, that's the one. I first used mine in a Garrard SP25 (we all have to start somewhere), then when I replaced the turntable/arm with an SME fitted to a Collaro 2020 deck (rim drive), the M3D spent several months in its new home. I then moved on to the M55E, which at the time I thought to be a significant upgrade. I still have a 55E, though not my original sample.

I would be very interested to hear of your findings. Looks like I might have to give the M55E another listen. It would be ironic if I ended up desparately wanting to try another sample of my first cartridge.

What goes around comes around?

Regards

Barry

Marco
05-04-2009, 23:53
Hi Barry,

Well I heard Steve's (SPS on the forum) M3D and was blown away by it, hence why I've now got one myself.

His had that lovely rich 'tone' you get so often with classic cartridges, which is completely missing on modern designs where the emphasis is more on forensic detail retrieval than realistic 'tone' and a more 'forward', but in my opinion, less musical presentation.

It's not that the M3D sounds 'tubby', overblown or dull - its bass simply has real weight which adds just the right amount of body to voices and instruments in order that they sound genuinely 'real' rather than 'tinny' synthetic sounding facsimiles of the real thing.

The midrange on the M3D is also quite shockingly vivid and dynamic sounding, rather like a Decca, although not quite so fierce, providing set-up is optimised, and the top-end is nicely open and 'airy'. It needs lots of mass to work right, as it comes from an era and pedigree similar to that of the DL-103 (both were used in broadcasting studios) when high-mass arms and heavyweight turntables to take them were the norm.

I should get good results using it on the Techy with the Jelco and heavy counterweight and NOS AT LT-12 magnesium headshell.

My feeling with some classic MM cartridges is that the generally poor quality of phono stages and amplifiers that were used in those days didn't allow the full performance of them to be realised. The quality of both amplifiers and phono stages nowadays releases the potential in the cartridges that was always there. This fact was proved to me recently when I listened to a Shure V15 TypeIII and M75ED through the tube MM stage in my Croft - the sound was fantastic and far better than I remember hearing first time around!

Perhaps that'll be the case if you try an M3D again? I'm certainly looking forward to hearing the results I get with mine :cool:

Marco.

anubisgrau
02-11-2009, 17:02
i have 103 and haufe trannies - apparently the similar as A23

does anyone know if A23 has any resistance loading so 103 sees an optimal 100ohm or not?

Historicus
02-11-2009, 20:03
I don't have any resistance mounted on my A23

anubisgrau
02-11-2009, 20:16
and it goes to any plain 47k MM phono?

OK, no resistors needed. that's a good news.

Barry
03-11-2009, 01:36
I believe that the A23 uses Haufe T-7883 transformers. Nobody seems to know and neither Keith Aschenbrenner nor Haufe will say.

If they are the T-7833, then running them into a 47KOhm load will present the cartridge with a load of 494.5 Ohm.

Incidently, the T-7883 is designed for a primary load of 40 Ohm and a secondary load of 47KOhm - the coil resistance of the Denon DL103 is 40 Ohm.

The 7883 would thus seem to be the ideal transformer to use with the Denon 103, and if the same transformer is used in the Auditorium A23, then that would explain why it too is a good SUT to use and thus Marco's and other's good opinion of this device.

Regards

anubisgrau
03-11-2009, 14:30
OK than it's clear. I don't know how I come to this 100ohm load, probably I picked it somewhere on the net.

Considering 103R has a different impedance (14ohm if I'm not wrong) - so T-7883 won't be ideal. Has anyone tried A23 with 103R and what are the thoughts? And what is generally considered to be a good choice for 103R?

anubisgrau
05-11-2009, 21:02
I've disconnected a resistor loading however it doesn't perform that well with a bare 7883 trannie. To my ears it's still better when a 103 is loaded with 100ohm than what it is loaded with a plain 7883..... Rounded, fuller, more natural, more subtle..... This is it (and goes what Denon says in the manuals...)

Rare Bird
05-11-2009, 21:06
Sorry for changing subject but while were on 103R..Bling kings might be intrested in one of these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-Denon-103-dl-103-aluminium-body-upgrade-103r_W0QQitemZ170402990001QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurnt able_Parts_Accessories?hash=item27accf47b1

Marco
05-11-2009, 21:39
Has anyone tried A23 with 103R and what are the thoughts? And what is generally considered to be a good choice for 103R?


Hi anubisgrau (what's your proper first name? :))

I use a Denon 103SA (basically a 103R with a 'fancy' body) with my A23, and the combination is superb. Therefore, I wouldn't worry about any incompatibility issues.

The A23 loads partnering cartridges at just over 100ohms, and this is definitely the optimal setting for any DL-103. Anything much over that tends to make the sound rather 'edgy' and brittle.

Marco.

anubisgrau
05-11-2009, 22:10
OK - this is a bit more clear now, because your 103SA has 14ohm impedance while mine 103 has 40 ohm impedance.

therefore 103R and 103 have different recommended loadings. AFAIK 103R wants 40 ohm with a trannie and 103 wants 100ohm min.

when you were ordering your A23, did you have to emphasize what version of denon you have?

i mean, i can't talk about things I haven't tried and maybe it just works superb with both, however there should be a difference because loading is a quite tricky thing. unless there are two different A23s (or different Haufe trannies).

Marco
05-11-2009, 22:15
LOL - before we go any further, do you have a 'normal' first name? I'm old fashioned in that I like to talk to people with 'real' names :)

Marco.

anubisgrau
09-11-2009, 22:01
LOL - before we go any further, do you have a 'normal' first name? I'm old fashioned in that I like to talk to people with 'real' names :)

Marco.

Gordan:smoking:

Marco
09-11-2009, 22:16
Nice one, Gordan. I'll continue the discussion tomorrow - right now I'm off to bed for an early night :cool:

Laters,
Marco.

anubisgrau
11-11-2009, 21:00
marco, your tomorrow is a bit long:)

anyway - impedance matching resistors removed and now 103 feeds haufe T7883 for the best result so far in my room. the preamp is a tube rectified (separated supplies for heating and voltage), 2-step (ECC82 & ECC83), phase correct, passive DIY RIAA. EAR 834p is collecting dust on the shelf....

Barry
11-11-2009, 23:34
To sort out exactly which version of the 103 we are talking about, the following would appear to be helpful:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DENONDL/denonDL.html
and
http://www.vinyl-lebt.de/SME/DL103/Thumbnails.html

To summarise:

DL-103 (1964) Broadcast-only model designed for NHK, the Japanese broadcasting authority.

DL-103 (1970) First consumer version Spherical stylus. Compliance 5cu. Coil resistance 40Ω.

DL-103S (1974) Higher compliance (8 cu) than 103, elliptical stylus. Coil resistance 40Ω.

DL-103D (1977) Higher compliance (12 cu). Elliptical stylus. Frequency response to 65kHz.

DL-103T (date ?) DL103 packaged with step up transformer.

DL-103/TII (1978) 15th Anniversary commemorative version with improved tracking.

(DL-103U (1981) Not a cartridge but a dedicated headshell)

DL-103 GOLD (1982) 20th Anniversary model, gold finish DL-103M (1983) Body re-style.

DL-103LC (1985) 75th Anniversary Commemorative edition LC-OFC coils.

DL-103LCII (1986) LC-OFC copper coils. Coil resistance 13Ω.

DL-103SL (1989) Change of materials and styling, limited edition DL-103GL (1990) High purity gold wire, limited production of 2,000.

DL-103C1 (1991) LC-OFC DL-103FL (1993) Fine-line stylus.

DL-103R (1994) Stylus shape,compliance, tracking force, frequency response and mass as per DL-103 but change to high purity copper wire of purity 99.9999% (6N) for the coil, output voltage of 0.25mV, and impedance of 14 Ω.

DL-103 PRO (date ?) Similar in appearance to the 103R Elliptical stylus Compliance 6cu Coil resistance 38Ω.

DL-103SA (date ?) Blue coloured body with rounded edges. Spherical stylus. Compliance 5cu. 6N purity copper coils. Coil resistance 14Ω. Recommended load impedance 100Ω minimum.

DL-103M (date ?) Silver finish to sides of the cartridge body Elliptical stylus Compliance 13cu Tracking force 1.4 +/- 0.2g mass 5.6g Coil resistance 40Ω



Gordan, your posts 115 and 122 contradict one another. Exactly which version of the 103 are you using?

An unloaded T-7883 transformer (that is loaded only by the nominal 47KΩ impedance of the disc input of your preamp) will present a load impedance of 494.5Ω to the cartridge. This will be fine for any version of the 103. The recommended 100Ω load is a minimum value.

Regards

anubisgrau
12-11-2009, 12:13
Gordon, your posts 155 and 122 contradict one another. Exactly which version of the 103 are you using?

An unloaded T-7883 transformer (that is loaded only by the nominal 47KΩ impedance of the disc input of your preamp) will present a load impedance of 494.5Ω to the cartridge. This will be fine for any version of the 103. The recommended 100Ω load is a minimum value.

Regards


sorry my mistake - i have a plain 103 (40 ohm coil resistance).

yes i was aware that unloaded haufe transformer present around 500 ohm to a cart and that's why i wanted to experiment with a resistor that would nominally decrease the load, i tried both with 40ohm and 100ohm load and both worked less succesful than unloaded. could be it's just a tuning of the whole system, the differences were quite obvious - unloaded more open, better hf resolution, better stereo.

Marco
12-11-2009, 13:05
marco, your tomorrow is a bit long:)

anyway - impedance matching resistors removed and now 103 feeds haufe T7883 for the best result so far in my room. the preamp is a tube rectified (separated supplies for heating and voltage), 2-step (ECC82 & ECC83), phase correct, passive DIY RIAA. EAR 834p is collecting dust on the shelf....

My apologies, Gordan. I got caught up with a few things! :)

All I can say is that I get superb results with the A23, whether using my bog standard 103, my 103Pro or my 103SA, despite their different coil resistances. It's honestly not something that's ever concerned me.

The problem with attempting to ascertain what difference the 40Ω coil resistance of 103 makes, compared to the 14Ω of 103SA, when using the A23SUT, is that the cartridges sound quite different due to other issues (internal wiring and cartridge body material) that it's impossible to isolate the effects of each different parameter when changing one cartridge over for the other...

That's why so far I've never bothered thinking about it. I just fit whichever cartridge I want to the Jelco, balance it up, and enjoy the superb sounds which issue forth (A23 in place, regardless)! :gig:

Marco.

anubisgrau
13-11-2009, 22:46
this evening i've assembled my new deck - stabi S/stogi S w benz micro MC gold and i can add this combo sounds stunning into unloaded haufe T7883 (the imp of MC gold is 20 ohm)!

it actually completely demolished my another deck with 103 (stabi 2/old stogi) in such a brutal manner that left with a conclusion that stogi arm is by far suboptimal for 103.

btw very surprised with BM MC gold. if there's a bargain, this is it

kcc123
13-11-2009, 23:53
To sort out exactly which version of the 103 we are talking about, the following would appear to be helpful:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DENONDL/denonDL.html
and
http://www.vinyl-lebt.de/SME/DL103/Thumbnails.html

To summarise:

DL-103 (1964) Broadcast-only model designed for NHK, the Japanese broadcasting authority.

DL-103 (1970) First consumer version Spherical stylus. Compliance 5cu. Coil resistance 40Ω.

DL-103S (1974) Higher compliance (8 cu) than 103, elliptical stylus. Coil resistance 40Ω.

DL-103D (1977) Higher compliance (12 cu). Elliptical stylus. Frequency response to 65kHz.

DL-103T (date ?) DL103 packaged with step up transformer.

DL-103/TII (1978) 15th Anniversary commemorative version with improved tracking.

(DL-103U (1981) Not a cartridge but a dedicated headshell)

DL-103 GOLD (1982) 20th Anniversary model, gold finish DL-103M (1983) Body re-style.

DL-103LC (1985) 75th Anniversary Commemorative edition LC-OFC coils.

DL-103LCII (1986) LC-OFC copper coils. Coil resistance 13Ω.

DL-103SL (1989) Change of materials and styling, limited edition DL-103GL (1990) High purity gold wire, limited production of 2,000.

DL-103C1 (1991) LC-OFC DL-103FL (1993) Fine-line stylus.

DL-103R (1994) Stylus shape,compliance, tracking force, frequency response and mass as per DL-103 but change to high purity copper wire of purity 99.9999% (6N) for the coil, output voltage of 0.25mV, and impedance of 14 Ω.

DL-103 PRO (date ?) Similar in appearance to the 103R Elliptical stylus Compliance 6cu Coil resistance 38Ω.

DL-103SA (date ?) Blue coloured body with rounded edges. Spherical stylus. Compliance 5cu. 6N purity copper coils. Coil resistance 14Ω. Recommended load impedance 100Ω minimum.

DL-103M (date ?) Silver finish to sides of the cartridge body Elliptical stylus Compliance 13cu Tracking force 1.4 +/- 0.2g mass 5.6g Coil resistance 40Ω



Gordan, your posts 115 and 122 contradict one another. Exactly which version of the 103 are you using?

An unloaded T-7883 transformer (that is loaded only by the nominal 47KΩ impedance of the disc input of your preamp) will present a load impedance of 494.5Ω to the cartridge. This will be fine for any version of the 103. The recommended 100Ω load is a minimum value.

Regards

The production date for the 103M cartridges was 1983, they had a boron cantilever and special elliptical stylus. For 103 SA they started in 2007.

Barry
14-11-2009, 01:59
Thanks King. I may write a piece on the Denon 103 series of cartridges for the Library, and to do a proper job I need to know that sort of information.

Any idea of the production date for the 103Pro ?

Regards

kcc123
14-11-2009, 13:13
Hi Barry,
The production date for the 103 Pro was 1994, the same as the 103R. There was another one called 103 EN in 2006.

Best regards!

mart10
20-02-2011, 13:09
Hi,
I am reading this post all away, but nobody did answer the question of witch Haufe trannie is used in the A23 ???

Did anyone open the A23 and take a look for those trannies ?? :scratch:

Regards, Martien

Barry
20-02-2011, 15:12
Hi,
I am reading this post all away, but nobody did answer the question of witch Haufe trannie is used in the A23 ???

Did anyone open the A23 and take a look for those trannies ?? :scratch:

Regards, Martien

The general consensus seems to be that the transformers to use are Haufe T-7883:

http://audio.kubarth.com/rundfunk/index.cgi.
(Scroll all the way down to the section headed "Übertrager", then scroll down to "HAUFE T7883" and click on the 'pdf' icon.)

I have been shown the inside of an A23 SUT and have to say whilst the transformers used have the same style as those of Haufe, they are slightly larger in diameter and slightly taller. They were devoid of any markings.

When loaded by the standard 47KOhm of a MM phonostage, the A23s present an impedance loading of around 100Ohm to the cartridge. An unmodified T-7883 would not do this (it would present an impedance of around 470Ohm), so the transformers used in the A23 must contain loading resistors, which may explain why the transformer cans are larger. There was no sign of resistors present external to the transformers.

I can find no reference to a T-7833 and believe this to be a misprint.

I have used loaded Haufe T-7883 transformers with my Denon DL103C (40Ohm coil resistance) and they work well.

Trust this is of some help

mart10
20-02-2011, 19:02
Hi Barry,
I do understand not all, I mean loaded and unloaded...This is probebly my English. I do read, that you can't find anything on the outside of the transformers, ok. But you think there are resistors on the inside to match the primare 40 or 100 Ohm. I have a Matisse TubeAmp, with also transformers inside for MC carts, They say that it is 580 Ohm on the primaire side (the specs say 250 Ohm), so I have tright resistores into parallel of 220 Ohm to make it 150 Ohm, and 47 Ohm, to make a total of 43 Ohm. I hope/think the transformers are OK in the Matisse, but I look for a copple of T7883 than to see what is the best, because I want to have the best for my 103SA you see.

I have seen the data of the T7883. Do you know where to buy this transformers anyway ??

Thanks a lot for your replay here, and I let you know. :)
Regards, Martien

Barry
20-02-2011, 21:12
Hello Martien,

Sorry, I probably overloaded you with information.

The Haufe transformers have a 10:1 ratio, so when their secondary winding is terminated by the nominal 47kOhm of the moving magnet input stage of your preamp, the impedance presented to the cartridge at the primary winding will be 47000/(10*10) = 470Ohm.

The Denon 103C likes to 'see' an impedance of around 100Ohm, so to achieve this a 12kOhm resistor is wired across the secondary terminals of the transformer. A resistance of 12kOhm in parallel with the 47kOhm of the preamp will look like 9.56kOhm, or 95.6Ohm at the primary terminals.

The A23 SUT, when connected to a 47kOhm moving magnet input of a preamp presents the cartridge with an impedance of around 100Ohms. The step up ratio is 10:1, so there must be a loading resistor of ~12kOhm connected across the secondary windings. Looking inside the A23, there is no visable sign of these resistors, unless they are concealed inside the housing of the transformers.

Keith Aschenbrenner, the designer of the A23, obviously will not say what transformers he uses. Common belief is that they are made by Haufe and that they are type T-7883. Obviously Haufe will not say, as it is probably a matter of 'Commercial in Confidence'. The transformers inside the A23 look like a Haufe design, however they are larger than the T-7883 and are unmarked. They could be 7883s and use a larger housing to contain a loading resistor fitted across the secondary winding.

As far as I know Haufe are still in business. I bought my 7883s from a fellow AoS member, but suggest you try:

http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de

Hope this is a little clearer.

Regards

mart10
21-02-2011, 07:09
He Barry,

Yes that is clear enough, I do understand your great story here !!
You say the resistors are putting on the sec side (47K), I have solder them on the Prim.side of my Matisse input. Is there a reasen to put the resistors on the prim. or sec side anyway ??
But I will buy the T7883 to see if they are better, I don't know what is in the Matisse, there are also no markings, very little bleu ones (47k : 250/580 Ohm)
Many thanks Barry, I hope I can buy the 7883

Regards, Martien

mart10
22-02-2011, 13:09
Hi Barry,

I have some emails back from Deutsland, she has also send the same PDFfile included as your database in this AoS.
The cost is 40,35 a transformer, and sendcost of 18 euro.
But I hope this is the right transformer as in the A23 ??
Is there also any schematic of the wires included if you know :)

Thanks, Martien

mart10
22-02-2011, 18:24
Hi,
About my Matisse PreAmp, it has also nice transformers for MC, but I don't notting about them. The specs say 47K - 250 Ohm, a reviewer (Peter Willemswaard) say 580 Ohm. So I don't no what is true.
Do someone know, if that impedance is to be checkt with a multymeter or something?
Maybe the are very good if a have the right 40 Ohm for my 103SA

Well I have read enough about the very good combination 103 - A23 (T7883) so I will order these transformers to working out for the best posseble match !

Thanks boy's. :scratch:
Regards, Martien

Barry
24-02-2011, 00:38
Hello Martien,

Apologies for the slow reply. This has been due to you asking the seemingly innocent question: "is it better to fit a 12KOhm resistor across the secondary winding or to fit a 120Ohm resistor across the primary winding?"

Both will produce similar results of loading the cartridge with an impedance of ~110Ohm. (If one takes into account the resistance of the primary and secondary windings of the Haufe T-7883, the true result is 120.1Ohm in the case of loading the secondary winding, and 107.6Ohm in the case of loading the primary winding.)

My dilemma was "from a noise point of view, which loading scheme is better?" To answer this I had to resort to circuit theory, use Thévenin's theorem and the Nyquist formula for thermal noise. I won't go into the calculations here, as it would only annoy certain members of this forum. I shall simply state from a signal-to-noise point of view, loading the transformer on the secondary side is better.



The answer to your second question is much easier. Regarding the colour coding of the transformer wires, they are as follows:

red and green: primary winding
blue and white: secondary winding

(the red and the green wires are in phase)

black: transformer core
black/yellow: transformer housing

The black and black/yellow wires should both be connected to ground (at the preamplifier).

Many people have reported that the type and manufacturer of the loading resistors can have an audible effect. You might like to try several types and makes.

Trust this is of help

Regards

mart10
24-02-2011, 18:32
Hi Barry,
Thanks a lot for the replay.
The need and problems with the resistors was nessesary at the transformers inside the Matisse TubeAmp.
I am also thinking that the secondari is better to add the resistors, because of the inpackt of any noise.
But I have ordered 2x T7883 at Hause, Duitsland. I have read that with the T7883 you don't need any resistors, because the primaire is already 40 Ohm.
I am very curius about the 7883's, I hope and think the are a lot more better!
Next week I hope the arrived at my home in Holland, I can't wait...:rolleyes:
Thanks, I let you know when I have experiens with them.
Regards, Martien

mart10
25-02-2011, 19:42
Hi Barry,
I want not to be an "%&@#" boy. I don't know a good word in English.
I have read your story ones again and again. But there are a copple of things that I want to know. Have I read it good, that the transformers in the A23 are different of the T7883s ? You rote that they in the A23, are a little larger than the T7883s ? Because of resistors inside.
But the T7883 have also 40 or 100 Ohm primair.
And is the primairy of the T7883, 40 Ohm (specs) or 100 Ohm you sad.
Kind regards, Martien

Barry
25-02-2011, 22:19
I have read that with the T7883 you don't need any resistors, because the primaire is already 40 Ohm.

Martien,

I think you may have misunderstood the data sheet for the T7883. The 40Ohm you mention is the source impedance (i.e. the coil resistance of the cartridge; the DL103 has a coil-resistance of 40Ohm). The data sheet for the T7883 reads as follows:

Data sheet for the Haufe T-7883 transformer.

Übersetzungsverh. : 1:10 (transformer ratio 1:10)

Quellwiderstand : 40 Ω (source impedance 40Ω)
Lastwiderstand : 47 KΩ (load impedance 47KΩ)
Primarpegel : dBu 0.05V (Primary level 50mV maximum, this is a misprint: ignore the dBu)

Frequenzberich : 20 Hz 20kHz +/- 1dB ref. 1kHz (frequency response)
Klirrfaktor < : 1% (distortion factor)

Impedanz Z : 6,8 kOhm 1 kHz +/-30% an rt - gn Farbe / Pin
(Impedance 6.8kΩ at 1kHz +/-30% between red – green coloured leads. Must confess I don’t know what Haufe mean by this.)

Vormagnetisierung DC : 0mA
(DC magnetising current 0mA, i.e. don’t allow any DC to flow through the windings.)

Wicklungswiderstand : 11.5 Ω : 1.3 kΩ +/-10%
(coil/winding impedance (resistance), primary : secondary)

Schaltbild
Primary winding: rt – gn (red – green)
Secondary winding bl – ws (blue – white)
Core sw (black)
Casing ge/sw (yellow/black)




But there are a couple of things that I want to know. Have I read it good, that the transformers in the A23 are different of the T7883s ?

I said that it is generally thought that the A23 uses Haufe T7883 transformers, but nobody can confirm this. The transformers fitted inside the A23 look like Haufe designs but are unmarked and are physically larger, both in diameter and height than the 7883. I cannot say catagorically that 7883s are used, however I have used 7883s with my Denon 103 and they work very well. I should add that the secondary windings are loaded with 12KOhm metal film resistors, so as to present the cartridge with an impedance of ~110Ohm.


And is the primairy of the T7883, 40 Ohm (specs) or 100 Ohm you said?

Unless the secondary winding is loaded with an additional shunt resistance, the primary winding will present an impedance of ~495Ohm to the cartridge. The Denon 103 is designed to work into an impedance of ~100Ohm. To achieve this, you need to load the secondary winding (the blue and white wires) with a 12KOhm resistor.

The impedance of the primary depends on the overall loading placed on the secondary winding. The primary is not 40 Ohm, for reasons explained above.

Trust this makes things a little clearer.

Regards

mart10
26-02-2011, 20:28
Hi Barry,

Its clear for me now.
The A23 is different from the T7883 transformers.

The trannies of A23 are larger, maybe for resistors on the inside, so the primary of the A23 is already +/- 100Ohm, good for the DL-103.

The T7883s need resistors (12k) on the secondary (47k), to make the primary also about +/- 100Ohm

However I hope that the sound performance of the T7883 is the same as the A23 ?? :scratch:

Best regards, Martien

Marco
28-02-2011, 02:15
Hi Martien,

I hope so, too, so do let us know. Plenty of folks, I'm sure, will be interested in the outcome :)

Marco.

mart10
03-03-2011, 18:59
Hi,
I was not 100% shure about the T7883s, so I canseld the order.
Today I buy a A23 at the importer in Holland. The A23 was availlable, so I did play 2 ours already with the A23.
My first conclusion is, more detail, more real tone, more air, greater stage, and a bit to much high tones (crunch?), but I know, plenty of ours to play-in. :)
I am happy with it, its more money than only the T7883, but I trust it more. I let you know after a few weeks.
Regards, Martien

mart10
04-03-2011, 20:57
Hi,
Well I have play 4 ours now, and the A23 is getting better and better.
My Matisse Pre-Amp has little MC step-up trannies inside, I know notting about them, but they playing alright, I thought.

But the new A23, is playing fantastic. Also the playcement of every instrument and voices are much better and precise. Also dynamic is much better. Also you here things, what you don't know if it was there, maybe you here it before, but now its more real with better definition.
All the difference tone-colours are much more and real, very nice !!

It is incredeble the difference like before, with the other MC step-up trannies.
And not forget, it is the 103SA that all the things pick-up from the record !!
It is right, when you have an 103, you need also the A23 !! :doh:

To-night, I here no harsh, like yesterday, maybe the power from the net (230V) was better, or play-in of the A23.

I have one question, now I have the IC of the CD-drive on the A23 and the PreAmp, witch IC I have to buy for the definetive connection of the A23 ?? Thanks !

Kind regards, Martien

pgabulon
27-03-2011, 11:32
I am currently listening to the DL 103 pro with the Aesthetix Rhea Signature with a load of 250 Ohm. What made a big difference was to replace a light headshell with a heavy AT LH18 which really made it sung in the ortofon RS 309

The Grand Wazoo
27-03-2011, 15:47
Hi Philippe,
Welcome to The Art of Sound. Perhaps you wouldn't mind going over to the Welcome section & introducing yourself to the members?
If you start a new thread there, it would be a good way to tell folks a little about yourself, your system & your tastes in music.
Maybe see you over there?

Cheers

anubisgrau
20-02-2014, 22:05
The Haufe capsules are built in the phono imput of EMT (950, 948,938), to be precise model T-890 (1:10) and T-451 (1:7).
Here you find the data sheets of all the Haufe capsules
http://audio.kubarth.com/rundfunk/index.cgi
This is the Haufe site http://www.haufe-uebertrager.de/html/profil.html


considering that haufe claims T890 is 1:10 SUT with 40 ohm primary DCR and 35kohm secondary, there's obviously something wrong with this calculation, the ratio is either much higher (more than 1:20) or DCR measurements are not correct..... anyone?

NRG
21-02-2014, 10:18
29.6 if my calculation is correct

anubisgrau
21-02-2014, 11:33
yes if the above data is correct which is not.... the mistery is solved, these are the loaded impedances, the real coil impedances with T890 are 9 and 900 ohm, which gives 1:10.

alles klar, apologies for confusion

Barry
05-03-2014, 22:03
Since the secondary winding will carry a lower (one tenth) current than the primary winding, it is likely to use wire of a smaller gauge than that used for the primary winding. It will therefore have a higher resistance per unit length.

The DC resistance (Gleichstromwiderstand) for the Haufe T 890 is 9.1Ω for the primary winding and 900Ω for the secondary winding. The ratio is ~ 1:100, whereas the turns-ratio or transformer ratio (Űbersetzungsverhältnis) is 1:10.

Only if the same gauge wire is used for both windings, will the turns-ratio be the same as the ratio of the winding DC resistance.

If one looks at the effective (or apparent) impedance of the windings (Scheinwiderstände), they are ~ 2 700Ω for the primary and 250 000Ω for the secondary. The ratio of the two is 92.6, implying a turns-ratio of √92.6 = 9.6, that is ~ 10 as expected.

Paulie72
18-11-2020, 14:42
Is this topic still relevant?

I am looking for an A23 SUT denon version or an serviced Denon HA-1000 which one will be the better solution for an Denon DL-103-Pro?

It will be used together with an Yamaha GT-2000 turntable with external powersupply and an Devialet Expert Pro 140 all in one amplifier and phono pre also.

walpurgis
18-11-2020, 15:38
Well, I expect if you blow the dust and cobwebs off this thread you should find it serviceable. :)

Marco
18-11-2020, 19:00
Is this topic still relevant?

I am looking for an A23 SUT denon version or an serviced Denon HA-1000 which one will be the better solution for an Denon DL-103-Pro?

It will be used together with an Yamaha GT-2000 turntable with external powersupply and an Devialet Expert Pro 140 all in one amplifier and phono pre also.

New or second hand, Paul, for the A23? If it's the latter, then the best plan is to start a wanted ad in the classifieds or look on ebay (for both). If you're looking for a new A23, then talk to Simon at Hi-Fi Sound: https://www.hifisound.co.uk/

That's where I got mine from, when I had it (he does them to order only) and he's a great guy to deal with.

Other than that, as I have a lot of experience with all versions of the 103, including the Pro, I can say from experience that it works really well with a Highphonic HP-T5: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Highphonic-HP-T5-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-/264564360652 as they were designed to work together, due to the fact that Highphonic make the Pro (or rather modify stock 103s to their spec), so that would be a great match, in terms of synergy.

Hope that helps:cool:

Marco.

Paulie72
18-11-2020, 20:34
New or second hand, Paul, for the A23? If it's the latter, then the best plan is to start a wanted ad in the classifieds or look on ebay (for both). If you're looking for a new A23, then talk to Simon at Hi-Fi Sound: https://www.hifisound.co.uk/

That's where I got mine from, when I had it (he does them to order only) and he's a great guy to deal with.

Other than that, as I have a lot of experience with all versions of the 103, including the Pro, I can say from experience that it works really well with a Highphonic HP-T5: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Highphonic-HP-T5-MC-Step-Up-Transformer-/264564360652 as they were designed to work together, due to the fact that Highphonic make the Pro (or rather modify stock 103s to their spec), so that would be a great match, in terms of synergy.

Hope that helps:cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco,

The A23 is brand new and is the last one available for the moment due to CoVid19. Is the Highphonics better then the A23. For me the Highphonics is cheaper by the way.

I have an HA103CL MC Cartridge, unique Tungsten tension-wire which is basically an tuned version of the DL-103-Pro.

The Denon AU-S1 is not a good one for the DL-103-Pro?

Paul

Marco
18-11-2020, 20:49
Hi Paul,

It's down to personal taste, of course, and what will work best in your system, but I'd give the Highphonic a go, as sonically there's not much in it, and if it's cheaper for you then it makes sense. Plus, I've dealt with the seller before, Yuki, (only recently) and he's top-notch:)

Marco.

Paulie72
18-11-2020, 21:23
I sent Juki an PM on ebay to check what the possibilities are to buy the Highphonic from him.

Marco
18-11-2020, 21:30
Nice one, please say 'Hi' to him from me:)

Marco.

Paulie72
19-11-2020, 07:47
Marco thanks for you tip. I have ordered the Highphonic-HP-T5-MC from Juki and sent him your regards.

Marco
19-11-2020, 10:25
Nice one - hope you enjoy it, Paul, and do please report back:)

Marco.

Paulie72
19-11-2020, 12:26
Will take some time for shipping but when it arrives i will definetely give feedback.

Below my turntable and 2 of my cartridges that i have.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201119/207171ddcf506c58cb3623018e1ed2aa.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201119/97ff47816c3f849f9ea60ff8a6cbd485.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201119/3b50b625e9226766eeafa20748fa8fb4.jpg

Paulie72
20-11-2020, 12:14
The Highphonic SUT will arrive tuesday. Unfortunately the customs needed a big part of money also :(

But that is allways the risk with buying outside the "EU".

Marco
20-11-2020, 12:27
Yup, it was the same for me when I bought my Denon DL-103GL and AU-310 SUT from him - but when you consider just how good some of this gear sounds/performs, compared with a lot of 'mainstream' stuff today, even when factoring in the import charges, it's still a bargain!:)

Anyway, drop us a not when it arrives and what your thoughts are:cool:

Marco.

Paulie72
24-11-2020, 22:22
The Highphonic SUT is in it looks really nice. The sound is really really good. The rothwell headamp is unfortunately no match.

Better instrumental separation. More dynamic also. The stage is more deep.

Marco thanks for your tip [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201124/4bdb08fd514305f2c7f7cd3dee530df9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201124/857aed8ad5c5876117ff6f28c8524371.jpg

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Marco
24-11-2020, 22:30
That was pretty quick, Paul!:eek:

Nice one, though. So glad it worked out well, as it's always a risk giving (fairly expensive) reccos to someone who's system you've never heard... I'm not surprised though that the Highphonic sounds good, as it was designed to match the Pro, so you should have real synergy at work, which is always key, IME, to getting a great sound from vinyl!

Enjoy - and yes it does look good!:cool:

Marco.

Paulie72
24-11-2020, 22:52
I made a deal for fast shipping i am very impatient [emoji39]

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Marco
24-11-2020, 23:43
Lol - I'm the same! My stuff took ages to get through customs, though [nearly 3 weeks!]:doh:

Marco.

Paulie72
25-11-2020, 22:32
I am still enjoying my SUT it is an magical combination. As discussed on another forum it is a good as the weakest link. Which was my headamp before.

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Paulie72
22-03-2021, 19:31
I like my DL103Pro very much. I have an Benz Micro Glider L2 and AT33PTGII both do not give me the Joy that i have with my Denon. I am allergic for IGD they both have it and they are professionally installed.

What would be an nice upgrade of the Denon without the headache from AT and BM?

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Marco
23-03-2021, 23:11
Hi Paul,

How are you? Hope you're well and staying safe!:)

Glad you're enjoying your 103 Pro and Highphonic SUT. It should be a very good and musically satisfying combination. In terms of IGD, it should be minimal (virtually inaudible) with ANY cartridge (and arm) that's been *fastidiously* well set-up!

However, you'll always get a little more with a conical tip, than with ellipticals or fine-lines, simply because of the nature of their stylus profiles, although with everything optimised the difference, audibly, should be negligible.

As for upgrading from the Denon, in the way you describe, firstly you must understand that you won't be able to achieve such, universally, as the 103's unique talents, musically, simply won't be automatically usurped by another cartridge, arguably more accurate, by dint of having a superior stylus - there are *always* tradeoffs!

However, if you wish to retain as much of the Denon's sound (musicality) as possible, but add a little more polish and finesse, my recommendation would be to consider cartridges from Phasemation and Miyajima (PP-300 and Takumi, respectively), as shown here and available from the website of one of our traders:

https://ammonite-audio.co.uk/product-category/analogue/turntable-cartridge/

Hugo's a top bloke and great guy to deal with, and whom I've no doubt will help you achieve your aim. Cartridges from both of said manufacturers are voiced to sound 'musical', not clinical or 'artificially hi-fi', like the products of many of today's manufacturers, so there'll be no such 'headache' to worry about!

Hope that helps:cool:

Marco.

Paulie72
25-03-2021, 14:33
Hi Marco,

I am well including family. Thanks. What i find out is that i am very prone to distortion of any kind. One time during a listening session with my speakers i heard an distortion no one else could hear. Then after an sound sweap we found out that the magnets of my planar speakers was coroding and where touching the foil. Also i can hear the buzzing of the adapters of handphones. So with cartridges i am prone to distortion too. My AT and Benz Micro are more prone to IGD then my Denon. The Benz Micro is installed by an professional wo did the retipping of the Benz Micro. Also changing the anti skating made it less prone but is still there. Do you think the 2 cartridges mentioned are less prone to IGD?

Marco
25-03-2021, 21:44
Hi Paul,

Glad you guys are safe and well:)

Interesting you say that the Denon is less prone to IGD than the AT or Benz Micro, as technically because they have the 'superior' styli, it should be the other way round!;)

I don't doubt what you're saying though, as with my Denon 103GL, I get *minimal* (virtually inaudible) IGD, as I'm super-fastidious with set-up and also about ensuring that the cartridge I use is ideally suited to the partnering arm, especially in relation to mass [crucial in minimising IGD].

Using, say, a low-compliance MC cartridge with too light an arm (and/or headshell) is a recipe for creating all kinds of nasty distortions, or for that matter, when a 'posh' fine-line stylus (of an expensive MC cartridge) isn't optimally aligned with the grooves it's tracing, such as would be the case if VTA, VTF and/or azimuth weren't *absolutely* bang on.

In terms of the two cartridges I mentioned, I can't say whether or not they're less prone to IGD than the AT or Benz, simply that they'll likely sound as 'musical' and 'richly toned', as the Denon, plus be a little more open, detailed and 'well behaved' at the top end, and so would give you a nice option to have sometimes instead of the Denon, if you fancied a slightly different 'flavour'.

Marco.

Paulie72
28-03-2021, 09:40
Hi Paul,

Glad you guys are safe and well:)

Interesting you say that the Denon is less prone to IGD than the AT or Benz Micro, as technically because they have the 'superior' styli, it should be the other way round!;)

I don't doubt what you're saying though, as with my Denon 103GL, I get *minimal* (virtually inaudible) IGD, as I'm super-fastidious with set-up and also about ensuring that the cartridge I use is ideally suited to the partnering arm, especially in relation to mass [crucial in minimising IGD].

Using, say, a low-compliance MC cartridge with too light an arm (and/or headshell) is a recipe for creating all kinds of nasty distortions, or for that matter, when a 'posh' fine-line stylus (of an expensive MC cartridge) isn't optimally aligned with the grooves it's tracing, such as would be the case if VTA, VTF and/or azimuth weren't *absolutely* bang on.

In terms of the two cartridges I mentioned, I can't say whether or not they're less prone to IGD than the AT or Benz, simply that they'll likely sound as 'musical' and 'richly toned', as the Denon, plus be a little more open, detailed and 'well behaved' at the top end, and so would give you a nice option to have sometimes instead of the Denon, if you fancied a slightly different 'flavour'.

Marco.Thanks for your reply. For now i am busy buying other speakers. Almost pull the trigger on Vivid Audio K1. After that i will invest some more time in setting up the AT to see if i can solve this issue. For me i need to be relaxed bec i am not that good of a fiddler [emoji39].

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Marco
29-03-2021, 07:58
Sure, and good luck with that:)

However, although I'm not a big fan of AT cartridges in general, if they're optimally set-up (all having very good quality elliptical or fine-line styli) they should display almost inaudible IGD.

One thing to try also (as I'm not sure which tonearm you use) is adding some extra mass to the headshell, (with the use of a shim) as most MC cartridges, apart from the highest compliance varieties, like to 'see' some mass, so flimsy lightweight headshells sometimes cause distortion.

In that respect, a couple of grams can make all the difference, and always apply VTF towards the upper end of the specified range.

Or you may like to fit a Houdini: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?71276-The-Funk-Firm-Houdini-review

That will KILL your IGD dead... :trust:

Marco.

Paulie72
29-03-2021, 08:56
Hi Marco,

i am using an Yamaha GT-2000 with an YAS-39 arnm. The headshell is an Jelco HS-25BR i will check what will happen with some extra weight should that perhaps also being the issue for the Benz Micro?

Marco
29-03-2021, 21:53
Hi Paul,

Nice T/T and arm. Also, the Jelco headshell is pretty solid, so there's no big issue there, although you could try adding a couple of grams at the headshell (as long as you can balance it out at the other end), and see if that improves matters or not, but I think the IGD you're hearing is more likely to be a set up thing.

Have you used an alignment protractor to set up your cartridges (either AT or Benz), and if so which geometry have you selected, Stevenson or Baerwald? With a Japanese arm like yours, I'd always use Stevenson, so if you've aligned it with Baerwald, try it with Stevenson, and I reckon that will eliminate much of the IGD.

Let me know how you get on:)

Marco.