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jandl100
19-10-2008, 08:14
Audio Physic II - bought a couple of weeks back.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/APVirgo2.jpg

Run from my Leak Stereo 20 or Esoteric AZ-1 I had one hell of a job getting the sound to gel. Waltzing speakers around the room like crazy :mental: - nope nothing seemed to work. they sounded OK, but I could hear a lot more potential there that just wasn't being realised. Seemed like the APs were in for a very short stay at Casa Jerry.

Then due to a combination of curious and sad circumstances, a couple of days ago I found myself with a new pre/power amp combo ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MFA3701.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MFA370-MVX2.jpg

Yup, from the Glory Days of Musical Fidelity ... an MVX.2 pre and an A370 power amp.

Woo-Hoo !! - now we're cookin' with charcoal. :smoking: Despite all protestations to the contrary, what the APs were really crying out for was 235 Watts / 50 amps of solid state class-A beefsteak up the jacksie! Word on the streets is that the Virgos are best with valves ... well, they do sound mighty fine, but you really gotta hear them with a muscle amp!

The APs are def here for the long haul (well, long haul by my standards! ;)) - perhaps I can see some larger APs making their way Jerry-wards in the New Year. Mighty fine speakers when fed the right juice.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MFA370Virgo.jpg

StanleyB
19-10-2008, 08:44
Have you still got neighbours with perfect hearing heh Jerry?

jandl100
19-10-2008, 08:56
Pardon? What was that you said? ;)

sastusbulbas
19-10-2008, 11:05
Hi J,

Those are some nice pieces of equipment there, I have had some enjoyable moments with those speakers, I found them to do a magic disappearing act, but as you seem to have found out, with a bit of work with placement.

I take it you have them tried very wide apart, far out into the room and very toed in? I found that the recommended Audio Physic placement did indeed seem to work quite well. Your placement looks a little closer to the walls than recommended. Have you got them on the long or short wall?

As for your new amps, well all I can say is congratulations, if I had the spare money I myself would have loved them, they seem very well looked after. I have a bit of a soft spot for that Musical Fidelity combo with the Kef R107, I felt it had one of those synergy's that made the value of American high end questionable and had you ask what the fuss was with Naim and Linn.

Funny enough it was the above combo which had me gagging to get hold of the Sony combo Marco had, which back in the early 90's was my dream set up to aim for (along with Audioquest cables :doh: LOL). Funny how things go, the guy with the Sony ended up with an expensive repair bill so had to hold on to the Sony, and I got the hump after waiting so long and spent the money on a Titanium MTB and gave up on audio for a few years.

Marco
19-10-2008, 11:08
Funny enough it was the above combo which had me gagging to get hold of the Sony combo Marco had...

Hi Steve, which combo was that - are you referring to my CDP and DAC (which I'm still using)? I've never used anything else from Sony, hi-fi-wise.

Marco.

sastusbulbas
19-10-2008, 11:21
Hi Marco,

I thought you had the original Sony CDP-R1/DAS-R1 combination before changing the transport?

Anyway the original Sony CDP/DAS-R1 combo is what I meant, back in the early-ish 90's I was offered first dibs on this pairing for £1800 or so, as the owner was upgrading. This upgrade was either awaiting arrival from the states or I believe was a new product, I am unsure but it was a long wait, which ended when his Krell amplifier blew.

Marco
19-10-2008, 11:42
Yep, Steve, you're right. I thought we were talking about amplifiers, though.

I did have the CDP-R1 transport before replacing it with the X-777ES due to a diode failing in the drawer mechanism of the R1 which couldn't be replaced. I have my eye on another R1 but, TBH, the X-777ES is every bit as good although it doesn't match as well visually with the DAS-R1 DAC.

You missed out big time on that one, mate! You just don't get CDPs of that quality made anymore.

Marco.

sastusbulbas
19-10-2008, 12:15
Hi Marco,

Yes I sort of did miss out hence my disappointment back then, I also rate the similar two box champagne Technics competing model also from that era.

Still I also rate a lot of TEAC and Theta's kit, and feel that Theta was one of those companies that kept it going right up to the days of up-sampling and oversampling. My Theta Data III and my DAC were well regarded in their day, back when Stereophile A ratings were a little more reliable I feel.

Sadly in this day and age if it's not got new technology, then it's obviously not good enough for most, for me 16 bit is 16 bit and when done well it sounds superb in a cohesive manner across the audio band with a wide variety of source material. This is something I feel has all but disappeared from today's digital replay, and I cannot help but feel that all the processing and off the shelf components are to blame, to my ears many of today's players lack body, depth, bass weight and substance.

I never bought the oversampling and up-sampling genre when it came out, I felt it offered nothing more than a slightly watered down facsimile of what the then current best of 16 bit replay had to offer, and most of this "higher resolution" was nothing more than processing and a more forward presentation, nothing to do with resolution. Things have got better but I feel it was a sideways step to make more money out of digital with a "new" method of extracting "different" performance with less engineering and better profit.

Nowadays people sing about the DAC being the be all and end all, and if there is any noticeable difference between transports and digital cables your DAC is rubbish! A number of years ago such DAC's were praised for their resolution, but things take various directions, instead of chasing absolutes we have processing which will take any old signal and process it well enough to sound the same as any other signal.

jandl100
19-10-2008, 17:03
I take it you have them tried very wide apart, far out into the room and very toed in?

Yup. Disappearing act, for sure, when very wide apart but I found the stereo spread was just too wide - most of my listening is classical, and a 30 foot wide piano (as one example) just doesn't cut it! So I have them closer and toed in so they cross a foot or two in front of the listening chair.

I've yet to do much re-positioning since I got the MF pair, they just invite you to sit down and listen, not fart about! But, yes, I shall re-try the speaker positioning tango and see where they sound best now.




I found that the recommended Audio Physic placement did indeed seem to work quite well. Your placement looks a little closer to the walls than recommended. Have you got them on the long or short wall?



I'll admit to preferring the extra bass weight and gravitas from a near(er) wall position and am happy to sacrifice a little in the way of sonic holography in order to achieve this.

They are along the long wall. I prefer that with most speakers anyway, so no problem there.

With their soundstage "trick" it's easy to overlook their resolution, which is imo superb. The Audio Physic by-line is 'No loss of fine detail' so they clearly place most emphasis there themselves.

jandl100
14-12-2008, 10:37
Following my unsuccessful venture into the world of Horning speakers, a swap deal has resulted in the acquisition of some ProAc Studio 140 speakers and a Pro-Ject Tube Box phono stage.

The ProAcs are quite pretty aren't they?

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ProAcStudio1401.jpg

I first wired the ProAcs up to my MF A370 solid state amp. Yuk - big mistake. What have I done? The sound was bloated, bland and lo-rez. Hmmm ... these are for the Classifieds, pronto!

ProAcs are often an easy amp load, though, so I thought I'd hook up my Chinese OTL valve monoblocks. I hadn't used them in ages - they are no use at all with my 4 Ohm average Audio Physic Virgos.
Wow - zounds & bejeebers! Music - room filling, hi-rez, spacious and wonderful, and full of vitality and pizzazz! :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ProAc140OTL.jpg

And those OTL amps look so purdy glowing away (and usefully heating the room!).

The ProAcs are pointing pretty much straight ahead, with their griilles on - the treble gets a little enthusiastic otherwise.

And that Pro-Ject Tube Box phono stage is a little honey, too - it's sitting on the floor between the amps and the speaker - it replaced (and thoroughly stomped on) an MF X-LPSv3 / X-PSUv3 combo.

Marco
14-12-2008, 11:56
Hi Jerry,

What did you find wrong with the Hornings, incidentally? Did you try them with valves? Just curious as I've always wondered how they'd sound driven by a nice P/P valve amp :)

Marco.

jandl100
14-12-2008, 18:08
Hi Marco
The Hornings were just too coloured for my musical tastes, and not large scale enough for classical music, and not deep enough or taut enough in the bass. After a few days all I was hearing was the colourations!

Yup, tried valves - Leak Stereo 20 and my OTLs. The OTLs didn't sound good at all - but the Zeuses were 6 ohm nominal dipping to 4 ohms - and OTLs really don't like that sort of load at all. But even the Leak was easily outshone by my MF A370. Not what I had expected.

I guess I am just more of a 'monitor' sort of a guy ... I doubt I'll be repeating the Horning-type route again. I can hear why some folks love their Fostex and Lowther drivers, but they are not for me.

jandl100
16-12-2008, 07:57
My latest toy arrived yesterday ... took a while to get it motoring as it has smaller than usual output pins :doh: and my headshell tags required careful squeezing to close them up a little ... but now it's really singing :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DVXX1L.jpg

Beechwoods
19-12-2008, 18:05
Nice picture, Jerry. How does it sound?

Primalsea
19-12-2008, 20:58
Hi Jerry,

I see you have a Behringer Ultra Curve. Did you use this with the RTA Room Correction and what did you think of it??

Cheers

jandl100
19-12-2008, 23:18
Hi Jerry,

I see you have a Behringer Ultra Curve. Did you use this with the RTA Room Correction and what did you think of it??

Cheers

Hi Paul

It's a Behringer DEQ2496. Yes, I've used it as a room correction device and I think very highly of it ... but only when used in pure digital mode - the ADC and DAC aren't bad but not that good, either.

It's out of circuit at the moment as everything sounds quite well balanced. But it came into its own when I had a pair of Dali Skyline 1000 open baffle ribbon hybrids. Their 12 inch open baffle woofer was giving +15dB bass peaks in my room :( - but the DEQ2496 sorted that out very nicely.

Most recently I was using it to increase the roll-off of a REL Strata 5 subwoofer. For my tastes ALL subs roll off way too slowly into the mids, and the Behringer was a neat and easy way to knock 30dB off the sub's midrange output! :)

jandl100
19-12-2008, 23:24
Nice picture, Jerry. How does it sound?

Very pleasing, indeed. I've always loved the sound of Dynavectors - I started off with a DV23RS, then a DV17D2 (I had 2 of those!), then a DV-XX1L.

Just wonderfully natural music makers, to my ears. Fast and detailed but tonally rich - quite a rare combination in my experience. Along the way, I've wandered in to Ortofons and a Denon and Roksan/Goldring, but I always return to DVs somehow! They just sound right to me.

Primalsea
20-12-2008, 11:31
Thanks Jerry for the info,

Are you saying that the Behringer adds its own character to things? I was looking into using it for room correction for the whole system - digital & vinyl.

I'm wondering if the pro's of room correction outway the cons of the DSP. Just to clarify by room correction I mean using the calibration mic to measure the room and then the Behringer to automatically compansate for it ala Lyndorf on the cheap.

jandl100
20-12-2008, 12:58
Thanks Jerry for the info,

Are you saying that the Behringer adds its own character to things? I was looking into using it for room correction for the whole system - digital & vinyl.

I think that using its digital inputs and outputs it is pretty much transparent. I.e. between digital source and your own fancy DAC. In which case I strongly recommend the Behringer. :)

But if you use its analog ins/outs for a vinyl setup or from an integrated CDP's analog outputs, then you have to use the Behringer's frankly mediocre onboard ADC and DAC. Not so good. :(


Just to clarify by room correction I mean using the calibration mic to measure the room and then the Behringer to automatically compensate for it ala Lyndorf on the cheap.

Yup, that's what I mean, too. :)

I don't recommend you use the auto-correction though - do it manually for much better results.

jandl100
01-01-2009, 23:27
A lovely New Year prezzie to me :)

I just can't believe how cool this looks :smoking: - and it sounds great, too!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Denon62L2.jpg

A Denon DP-62L.

Filterlab
01-01-2009, 23:58
Very nice Jerry, looks cracking!

John
02-01-2009, 18:01
Wow what a lovelly looking Turntable very elegant

jandl100
02-01-2009, 18:33
Yup - it is nice. Photos make it look a bit like a flying saucer (my wife says!) becuase of the lights and the raised circular platter area, but 'in person' the actuality looks even better. .... & it sounds good, too. :)

jandl100
10-01-2009, 06:56
New Toys !! :smoking:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MLCLS2zetc.jpg


OMG - simply superb in so many ways! :)



... yes, I know the room's a mess ;), but I'd only just set 'em up and stuff was still all over the place!

Primalsea
10-01-2009, 10:07
Yep panels are something else arn't they. I found that having them so close to the walls spoiled things a little due to the reflections. I bought some egg box profile acoustic foam and placed it right behind the panels. This tidied things up really well. I did make some absorption panels a while a go which did help but not as much as the foam and its more descrete.

jandl100
10-01-2009, 10:44
I found that having them so close to the walls spoiled things a little due to the reflections. I bought some egg box profile acoustic foam and placed it right behind the panels. This tidied things up really well.

Ah, now that is interesting. Thanks, Paul.

I've just submitted an eBay offer for some. :)

My one criticism of the sound at the moment is that it can get a bit forward once things get more than moderately loud if there is a lot of hi freq content - especially on 'full bore' orchestral. Do you think the egg box approach might help with this?

jandl100
10-01-2009, 10:48
Yep panels are something else arn't they. I found that having them so close to the walls spoiled things a little due to the reflections.

I've got them firing across the width of my 12x20 ft room at the mo. I tried them out as far as 4 feet from the wall, but I prefer the slightly fuller sound of them at just under 3 feet.

I've just received a 6m length of my fave Black Mamba speaker cable which will enable me to easily fire the CLSs down the length of the room without having to move all the kit around. That should easily allow me to have up to 6 feet behind the speakers. Will try that sometime soon.

Filterlab
10-01-2009, 11:18
Ahhh, MartinLogan CLSs, lovely stuff. I believe this is/was their only non-hybrid model? They certainly need some space those, great sound once they're set up though. :)

jandl100
10-01-2009, 11:36
Well, there's always their new CLX at £25k ;)

Primalsea
10-01-2009, 14:26
My one criticism of the sound at the moment is that it can get a bit forward once things get more than moderately loud if there is a lot of hi freq content - especially on 'full bore' orchestral. Do you think the egg box approach might help with this?

Funny you should say that I found that the foam reduced the highs a bit. This might be something to do with the rear reflections not hitting the wall and coming back slightly out out time.

I've read somewhere that if you shoot down the room you should put some absorption on the side walls just behind the panels. So if you get some foam it will be useful whatever you do. TBH at the moment room treatment is making the largest changes and its the least expensive.

Filterlab
10-01-2009, 14:32
I found that there's a vast potential difference in presentation when the vertical angle is adjusted, maybe moreso with the hybrid MLs, but the same should essentially work with the single panels. The more upright the brighter the sound. Or I should say the more directly fired at the listening position, the brighter the sound.

Primalsea
10-01-2009, 18:07
I have found the same also, also my friend who has the Acent's says the same thing.

Panels tend to beam more so that other drivers which means they tend to have much more treble energy on axis. ML tend to tilt there panels back a bit but I set the adjustable feet spikes so that they are more vertical. This is one of theweaker points of ML's they tend to have a sweet spot the curved panels help a bit but not much. Not sure if the CLS have curved pannels though. The best way to hear them is from far away but most UK living rooms are not as big as the average in the US.

Filterlab
10-01-2009, 19:54
The CLS definitely have curved panels, CLS is an acronym form Curvilinear Line Source. What you've said about the living room size is bang on, but there's another giveaway factor on ML speakers that show they're designed for the US market; as houses in the UK tend to have solid internal walls the bass from MLs is almost always lean, houses in the US tend to have drywall internally which resonates at the lower frequencies causing bloom. A lot of US designed loudspeakers have an adjustment of some type on the crossover to counteract this effect, from my experience with american speakers (i.e. my last two pairs), if this is undertaken correctly it aids an even frequency response without compromising bass response in either situation.

Ali Tait
10-01-2009, 20:41
Lovely panels Jerry.I wouldn't want to live without mine now.No more box speakers for me!

Primalsea
10-01-2009, 21:07
I know what you mean about US houses. I know it probably varies from state to state but I saw some vert nice, large houses in Houston. However seeing one being made is an eye opener. It was completely softwood framed with the exterior walls made from some kind of cladding. I just hope they have substancial amounts of fire retardant.

The Summits have adjustable bass, obviously for this reason you indicated. Some of the older ML's have 2 bass drivers. One of them acts out of phase for the very low frequencies to stop overblown room gain, interesting idea.

jandl100
11-01-2009, 16:30
Thanks for the advice folks.

I've just ordered 6x15 inch square egg-box type absorbent tiles. The initial plan is to fit them in the rear of the speaker as a vertical array of 15x45 inches each speaker.

See how that goes - then play around a bit!

It's kind of strange - the perceived balance is a bit on the bright side, but measuring the in-room sound with my Behringer DEQ2496, it actually slopes down from bass to treble ... ? Hmm. :scratch:

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 17:05
Hi Jerry, I hope it goes well with the tiles.

As you have a dipole that beams a lot more than cones speakers you need to take nearfield and farfield on axis and average the result. If you mic is not on axis with the panels you will get a drop in treble. This is very obvious if you change the volume while off axis from the speakers and then go and sit infront of them they will be a hell of a lot louder and the treble alot stronger.

This is one of the bad points about panels, they're very directional. However they do so many other things well.........

Marco
11-01-2009, 18:12
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MLCLS2zetc.jpg


Excellent, Jerry. A true 'den of iniquity' ;)

Keep up the good work!

Marco.

jandl100
11-01-2009, 19:12
This is one of the bad points about panels, they're very directional. However they do so many other things well.........

Heh!! Damn right there.

More progress with the CLS - the key to tonal happiness is toe-in. ... oh and just the right setting on the subwoofer.

Have just been listening to one of my fave Brahms choral CD with the CLSs quite severely toed in - the panels pointing a bit in front of me - luxuriating in the tonal warmth :) ... I would never have thought I'd be saying that about CLSs until now! Lovely jubbly.

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 19:18
Jerry,

FYI here's what I done with my foam tiles
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f23/primalsea/Speaker.jpg

jandl100
11-01-2009, 19:28
Thanks Paul - most interesting. Really neat looking. What would you say it does to the sound?

Sadly, my CLS panels are 20 inches wide, so I won't be able to do anything quite like that. I'm thinking of getting a couple of strips of wood, painting them black, and using those as a 'frame' to attach a vertical line of 3 15 inch tiles to. Should then be able to stick this to the rear of the CLS frame with black electrical insulation tape. Anyone got any better ideas?

Primalsea
11-01-2009, 19:39
Jerry,

I found that it tidied up the sound, as I mentioned before it seemed that the rear projected sound was hitting the walls and coming back slightly out compared to the forward projected sound. The foam seens to absorb a lot of this. I also found it made the treble not so loud but now I'v gotten used to it I think its more balanced.

RE the tiles you could try glueing 2 together with contact adhesive or double sided tape. That was you will have a 30 wide tile that you might be able to put in similar to mine. Mine just sit there of their own accord, I didn't have to stick them to the speaker in any way.

Your CLS might be different but I found that covering the entire back with tiles easn't as good as just using 2 tiles and leaving some gaps. Also It seems better leaving a bit of room between the panel and the tiles.

One of the other problems with these is that they really show up a poorly produced album. Coldplay Viva la Viva through these is crap.

jandl100
12-01-2009, 07:37
Thanks Paul. Given your commenst I think I'll make up a lattice contraption that can just be leant up against the rear of the speaker, or even free standing .... or :idea: - a free standing room divider thingy to attach the tiles to. ... IKEA?

Will def look into that idea! :)
___

TBH though - the toe in takes me a LONG way toward nirvana with the CLS. Can adjust the tonailty to suit mood or music by an easy small twirl of the panels too!

Filterlab
12-01-2009, 09:18
Your smiley as requested:

:idea:

Primalsea
12-01-2009, 20:31
:idea:

Motorised, remote control lazy susans with pan and tilt. Now thats something to think about

jandl100
15-01-2009, 20:05
Well, I've now rotated things so that the CLSs are firing down the length of the room rather than across the width.
About 5 feet clear behind them now.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/CLSlength-wise.jpg

They are clearly much happier in this configuration. Soundstage is more natural and relaxed, music has more room to breathe. Climaxes less shouty - but still a bit forward. Much much better - and it was darn good to begin with!

I've also now received the 6 15x15 inch egg carton absorbent tiles. Hmmm. They seem to flatten the soundstage - it's all a bit 2D when these are placed (quite closely) in a vertical array leaning up against the rear of the speaker.
I've also figured out a way to mount the tiles more flexibly - IKEA do a 45 inch high or so 14x14 inch footprint stand which would hold 3 tiles quite nicely and would allow flexibility in placement pretty much anywhere in the room in a vertical array with some spacing between the tiles. Next time I'm near an IKEA I'll probably invest the required £17 or so for the two.

Alternatively, I might try placing these forming a corner trap in the top rear corners of the room .... :scratch:

Primalsea
17-01-2009, 21:03
Hi Jerry,

I found that things didnt really work if I covered the whole of the back panel with the foam. I played around for a while with different numbers of tiles and in the end settles for 2 per speaker. This equates to 2/3's of the panel having the foam behind it. I don't think its a bad thing to let some of the rear projected high frequencies to get to the back wall.

Of course your setup is completely different to mine so I would imagine that different things would work, you just have to fart arse around trying all of the possaibilities but thats half the fun!!

jandl100
04-02-2009, 18:04
Box Swapper that I am :mental: I'm kinda hankering to change my amp.

So are there any suggestions of a better way to power my Martin Logan CLSiiZ fullrange stats than my beast of a MF A370/2? Budget is £2k max, preferably rather less. :)

Primalsea
04-02-2009, 18:30
Hi Jerry,

Update on the foam pads, I'm not using them now! I moved my speakers too so that they fire down the length of the room. This means that the speakers are in front of my curtains. The curtains alone seem to be enough which is suprising. I would have though more absorption than the curtains can give would have been needed. It seems that the foam/curtains/whatever need to be used sparingly.

As for an amp you could have a look on the Martin Logan Owner's Club forum. Being a USA based group the taste in amps tend to differ to ours. However they are american speakers.....

Filterlab
04-02-2009, 20:27
I must admit that I found my Aeons to be very easy to drive and they were more than happy enough with my Audiolabs (a pair of 8000Ps), they were even happier oddly and worked better being single wired and driven by one 8000P rather than bi-amped. More a case of current than power it would seem.

Primalsea
04-02-2009, 21:18
I'll agree with that Rob. My 20 watt Kel84 valve amp had no problems with the Aeon's. However an old Cambridge A1 amp was unstable. It would seem that not all amps were designed to be unconditionally stable into all speaker loads.

jandl100
04-02-2009, 22:07
I home demmed a pair of PrimaLuna 6 monoblocks (4x EL34 a channel) today - no go! Dynamically constrained and lacking in lo level rez. It didn't sound a happy amp at all. But it might be that I'm kinda spoiled by my MF A370 ....

The CLS do dip down to about 1 ohm in the treble ... :scratch:

Primalsea
04-02-2009, 22:40
Most Martin Logans do go to 1 ohm in the treble. I very nearly bought a Audio Research D250 for about £1500 once but it was just soooo HUUUUGE it wouldnt fit in my cabinet or anywhere else foro that matter. Also draws about the same power as a kettle. Hell of an amp though.

jandl100
05-02-2009, 10:33
Hi Jerry,

Update on the foam pads, I'm not using them now! I moved my speakers too so that they fire down the length of the room. This means that the speakers are in front of my curtains. The curtains alone seem to be enough which is suprising.

Yup - me neither! I bought 6 of those "egg carton" 15 inch square tiles. Just sitting around cluttering up the room. Just seemed to close in the sound. :doh: :scratch: Ah well.

With the CLS firing down the length of the room, some curtains behind them (as with your setup) and with 5 feet or so space behind them, too, all is well with the world.

___

BTW - I'm buying a BelCanto eVo4 class D power amp (350WPC :smoking:) to see how it goes with the CLS. :)

Primalsea
05-02-2009, 12:31
If you orientate the tiles the right way you can push 2 snuggly together. I tried to get them in the corners and on the wall but the master would have none of it.

If you have a dedicated room or no waf issues to overcome they will be of use elsewhere. I have read that a panel on the wall behind you help quite a lot with reflected sound.

Im sure I'll find a waf acceptable use for mine soon.

jandl100
05-04-2009, 09:57
Well, it's been 3 months now, and I'm still pleased as punch with my ML stats! :smoking:

I've swirled them around again so they are now firing across the room's width - tbh they still sound great, even with only about 3 feet clearance behind them. And it's nice to have top notch sounds to go with my film DVDs again as the MLs now bracket my plasma screen once more.

The main reason for this update post, though, is for my new speaker stands for the MLs. On the ML user forum many folks say that the CLSs really benefit from being raised a bit. (Many diss the idea as well, of course! ;)). So I've been giving some thought as to how to try this out. There's some pics on the ML forum of some seriously tasty looking stands - and Sound Anchor make bespoke stands for them too if you throw sufficient numbers of $100 in their direction. Generally the stands seem to be about a foot high - tbh that would be pretty overpowering in my room, so I thought I'd cobble together some stands just a few inches high to try out the idea.

Enter 2 IKEA IVAR shelves and some beech wood 'granny knobs' :lol: from eBay. Total cost - £0 for the IVAR shelves as they were knocking around unused anyway (but only a few £ new from IKEA) and less than £8 for 8 of my gran's knobs. Oh, and a £fiver for some good wood glue to attach the knobs to the shelves. Painted them gloss black to go with the speakers and even The Wife reckons they look OK ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MLCLSstands2.jpg

They raise the speakers by just over 3 inches.

And here's the overall appearance under the speakers. Quite neat, I reckon. :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MLCLSstands1.jpg

And the effect on the sound? Very worthwhile - the word that came immediately to mind was 'pellucid'. ... and that's not a word that often just pops into my cranium!

pellucid

Adjective
Literary
1. transparent or translucent
2. extremely clear in style and meaning [Latin pellucidus]
hc_dict()

Translucent - yep, that's it. The midrange in particular has taken on a very nice free-flowing smooth transparency that is very easy to listen to indeed. "Articulate" is another word that springs to mind. The sound seems even freer of the speakers than before.

And with those spherical feet, the whole shebang is extremely easy to slide around for those inevitable positioning tweaks!

The stands are stayin'! :carrot:

jandl100
03-07-2009, 09:47
Time for an update ....

The Martin Logan CLSiiz stats are gone and I've some noo babes who sing just for me ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LeemaXavierCary2.jpg

Leema Xaviers. I think of them as a 'grown up' Audio Physic Virgo II. :)

Actually, I play them with grille covers on ... unusually, they sound better that way, to me.

The Bel Canto eVo4 amp is temporarily retired, and here are my new amplification loves ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Cary572sef.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Cary572seside.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF4852.jpg

Cary 572-3 single ended monoblocks.

And very nice indeed they sound together. :smoking:

Oh, and while I'm mentioning these updates to my system, I should also say that a Melos PS-1 valve phonostage should be shipping Jerry-wards tomorrow! :)

Ali Tait
03-07-2009, 10:08
Very nice Jerry! Which ouput valve is that? I take it it's one of those unique to Svetlana? Heard a DIY amp at our last meet with one of those Svets as output and it sounded superb.

jandl100
03-07-2009, 10:22
Yup, it's a Svetlana 572-3. Pretty, innit!

The openness and musical detail are stunning. :)

Ali Tait
03-07-2009, 11:13
What's the output?

Spectral Morn
03-07-2009, 11:34
Time for an update ....

The Martin Logan CLSiiz stats are gone and I've some noo babes who sing just for me ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LeemaXavierCary2.jpg

Leema Xaviers. I think of them as a 'grown up' Audio Physic Virgo II. :)

Actually, I play them with grille covers on ... unusually, they sound better that way, to me.

The Bel Canto eVo4 amp is temporarily retired, and here are my new amplification loves ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Cary572sef.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Cary572seside.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF4852.jpg

Cary 572-3 single ended monoblocks.

And very nice indeed they sound together. :smoking:

Oh, and while I'm mentioning these updates to my system, I should also say that a Melos PS-1 valve phonostage should be shipping Jerry-wards tomorrow! :)

Hi Jerry


Those Cary amps look very nice....very nice indeed. Nice find.


Regards D S D L

jandl100
03-07-2009, 17:23
What's the output?

According to Stereophile tests it's 15W at 1% distortion, 20W at 3%.
Although that was for the original, mines a mark X, where X is a number >1!

Ali Tait
03-07-2009, 21:31
Plenty for most speakers then!

jandl100
04-07-2009, 07:14
Yep, the Carys easily drive my Leema speakers as loud as I wish & under good control.

As delivered, the Cary's had a very fast, open sound that was a bit forward and relentless in character. Great fun and very impressive, but quite difficult to relax with over the longer haul. Changing the JAN Philips 6sn7 tubes that they came with for some interesting (& cheap!) Soviet tubes (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250453449520&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&salenotsupported) altered that though. These are said to be an RCA knock-off, and they sound much sweeter and more musical in the Carys. I've also bought some genuine RCA 6SN7s from the US which should be on their way to me by now (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390062421276&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&salenotsupported).

Yesterday, I also changed the JAN Philips 5U4GB rectifier tubes for some GEC U52's from Langrex (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310087990822&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&salenotsupported). In the eBay auction info they said they are Japanese-made GEC, but the printing on the valves says made in England. This was less of a dramatic change than with the 6SN7 swap, but a bit more of a natural 3D soundstage and slightly warmer tonal colouring.

The Carys are now singing very sweetly and musically, but with plenty of presence, palpability, drive and energy. :)

The other input tube is an unbranded 6DN7 - I can't find out much about these - anyone have any info or any ideas for tube rolling?

Mike
04-07-2009, 08:28
The other input tube is an unbranded 6DN7 - I can't find out much about these - anyone have any info or any ideas for tube rolling?


It's a TV tube with not too many equivalents, there's a bit of info HERE (http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6DN7)

Marco
04-07-2009, 08:39
Nice one, Jerry :smoking:

I very nearly bought some Cary amps myself at the beginning of my journey into valves, so I've always rated them.

Glad they're doin' the biz for ya! :cool:

Marco.

jandl100
04-07-2009, 09:57
It's a TV tube with not too many equivalents, there's a bit of info HERE (http://www.nj7p.org/Tube4.php?tube=6DN7)

Thanks Mike. A bit too techie for me, though! :)

There's some interesting opinions on the 6DN7 valve here http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=bottlehead&n=116122&highlight=Jabberwock but the concensus seems to be that there isn't much diff in sound between any of the brands.

There's some Tung-Sol ones on eBay.com that I'll probably have a bid on just to hear for myself.

It's curious that Cary changed from the original amp design which used two 6SN7 to one that used one 6SN7 and one 6DN7. :scratch:

jandl100
05-07-2009, 08:06
A problem? ....

One of the power tubes has developed a small (1cm) silver/brown spot, the other tube has the faint outline of a similar spot. What's going on? :scratch: Is this something to be concerned about?

I've noticed these silver areas on other tubes, but these seem to have just developed .... I think!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF4859.jpg

Mike
05-07-2009, 08:50
Hi Jerry,

I'm not sure which bit you mean... is it this bit?

jandl100
05-07-2009, 09:42
Yes, looks like a brown spot on the photo, lower left. Sans camera flash, it looks silvery.

Mike
05-07-2009, 09:52
Ah, that's the 'death spot'!... You should send your amps to me for safe disposal as soon as possible.

Or... you could just keep on enjoying them and not worry too much about what looks like a painted marking on the glass which has discoloured due to the heat. Seriously, that's all it looks like form here. If the amps have the facility to check/adjust the bias it may be worth checking that it's in spec and doing a few regular re-checks just to make sure things aren't going awry.

Spectral Morn
05-07-2009, 09:56
Hi Jerry


I think this may be the getter on this tube. Some getter are at the top of the valve and sometimes on the side or both. Valves may have multiple getters.

This link shows pictures and descriptions of valve/tube condition and the various things that you can and do see when using them....hope this helps.

Link http://thetubestore.com/blueglow.html



Regards D S D L

jandl100
05-07-2009, 10:22
Hi Jerry


I think this may be the getter on this tube. Some getter are at the top of the valve and sometimes on the side or both. Valves may have multiple getters.

This link shows pictures and descriptions of valve/tube condition and the various things that you can and do see when using them....hope this helps.

Link http://thetubestore.com/blueglow.html



Regards D S D L

Aha - yes, that seems like it.

As the link says -

Getters

The getter or getter flash is the silver/gray coating seen on the glass of a tube ....... Regardless, the getter flash is what indicates there is a good vacuum in the tube and that no air has leaked inside.

That sounds OK then! :)

Thanks guys, phew!!


Ah, that's the 'death spot'!... You should send your amps to me for safe disposal as soon as possible.




And I shall decline your kind offer for the moment, Mike. ;)

Mike
05-07-2009, 11:01
And I shall decline your kind offer for the moment, Mike. ;)

Bah!... it never works! :steam:

jandl100
12-08-2009, 08:29
These should arrive today ...

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Infinity251.jpg

Exciting, isn't it! :carrot:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Infinity252.jpg

I doubt my Cary SET valve amps will be able to drive them - but I expect my 400wpc Bel Canto eVo4 will do just fine. :)

Marco
12-08-2009, 09:21
Nice one, Jerry... But what are they exactly? Are they famous (somewhere?) and we're supposed to know, like... ;)

{Edit: I've just viewed your post in 'Admin mode' and noticed that they are designs from Infinity}.

A bit more info for the benefit of the uninitiated would be good, matey!

Marco.

jandl100
12-08-2009, 10:03
A bit more info for the benefit of the uninitiated would be good, matey!

Marco.

What? I thought part of the fun was identifying unusual kit. ;)

Anyway, you hifi forum admin types are supposed to know everything about hifi! :lol:

Anyone else know?

If you want to cheat .... Info link .... http://www.bobbyshred.com/infinity/RS25.html

Marco
12-08-2009, 11:25
They should be nice, Jerry. You may be surprised just how good the Carys are at driving them... As long as they have a fairly flat impedance curve, efficiency of at least 86db, or so, and don't have stupidly complicated crossovers, then they should be fine.

We look forward to a full write-up (with pictures of them in situ) in Strokes of Genius :cool:

Marco.

Mike
12-08-2009, 16:28
It won't be too long before he ends up with a pair of THESE (http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/GF1/GF1.html)! :eyebrows:

Marco
12-08-2009, 17:54
I bet they'd be bloody awesome!! :wow:

Marco.

jandl100
12-08-2009, 18:58
It won't be too long before he ends up with a pair of THESE (http://www.thevintageknob.org/YAMAHA/GF1/GF1.html)! :eyebrows:

Nah - too bloody heavy - 150Kg! :mental:

Anyway - they just look like overgrown Yammie NS1000M - and I didn't get on with those at all! :scratch:

:)

Mike
12-08-2009, 19:52
they just look like overgrown Yammie NS1000M - and I didn't get on with those at all! :scratch:

Ya big girly!

I'm going to make sure your digi cable has a little bit of wee in it! :ner:

jandl100
12-08-2009, 20:36
Ya big girly!

I'm going to make sure your digi cable has a little bit of wee in it! :ner:

Aha - the magic foo ingredient! Your secret is out. :eyebrows:

.... blooody hell, these Infinity's are awesome. :eek:

Mike
12-08-2009, 20:42
Grrr.... :steam:


Actually.... when I said "wee", I meant "poo"! :lolsign:




On a slightly more serious note: They look great! :)

But I said that already. :LoL

On an even MORE serious note: Your cable won't contain any wee. Just a little bit of poo! :eyebrows:

Marco
12-08-2009, 21:31
.... blooody hell, these Infinity's are awesome.

Never mind all this hilarity...

Have you tried them with the Carys yet, shweety? :)

Marco.

jandl100
12-08-2009, 23:14
Never mind all this hilarity...

Have you tried them with the Carys yet, shweety? :)

Marco.

Ummm ... no.

A bit scared to, tbh. I believe they drop to 2 ohms in the treble and are a nominal 4 ohm load - not exactly cumfy for a 10wpc SET valve amp driving a speaker thatthe maker recommends using between 100 and 300 watts on!

I'm having way too much fun with my 'little' 400wpc Bel Canto at the moment to worry about it, though.

I have never heard such realistic vocals from a speaker. ... & big scale music is BIG.

The beasts had me literally gasping for breath at large scale orchestral music ... bloody hell (he says again) these are scorchers of a speaker!

Mike Reed
13-08-2009, 08:59
Does this mean your box-swapping days are over, Jerry?

I follow your itenerant progress with incredulous fascination; not least for the fact that you are a classical aficionado, and that I dread either buying or selling anything and cannot understand how you make a fine art of it.

Best wishes for the new kit, of which I have no knowledge at all.

jandl100
13-08-2009, 09:06
Does this mean your box-swapping days are over, Jerry?

I follow your itenerant progress with incredulous fascination; not least for the fact that you are a classical aficionado, and that I dread either buying or selling anything and cannot understand how you make a fine art of it.

Best wishes for the new kit, of which I have no knowledge at all.

:) Thanks Mike

See my write up and lots more photos in the reviews section. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=58450#post58450

No, of course my box swapping days are not over! I'll enjoy these for a while and then something else will take my fancy .... Yup, I'm totally :mental: but I have huge amounts of fun.

jennyababe
13-08-2009, 19:52
Audio Physic II - bought a couple of weeks back.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/APVirgo2.jpg

Run from my Leak Stereo 20 or Esoteric AZ-1 I had one hell of a job getting the sound to gel. Waltzing speakers around the room like crazy :mental: - nope nothing seemed to work. they sounded OK, but I could hear a lot more potential there that just wasn't being realised. Seemed like the APs were in for a very short stay at Casa Jerry.

Then due to a combination of curious and sad circumstances, a couple of days ago I found myself with a new pre/power amp combo ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MFA3701.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MFA370-MVX2.jpg

Yup, from the Glory Days of Musical Fidelity ... an MVX.2 pre and an A370 power amp.

Woo-Hoo !! - now we're cookin' with charcoal. :smoking: Despite all protestations to the contrary, what the APs were really crying out for was 235 Watts / 50 amps of solid state class-A beefsteak up the jacksie! Word on the streets is that the Virgos are best with valves ... well, they do sound mighty fine, but you really gotta hear them with a muscle amp!

The APs are def here for the long haul (well, long haul by my standards! ;)) - perhaps I can see some larger APs making their way Jerry-wards in the New Year. Mighty fine speakers when fed the right juice.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MFA370Virgo.jpg

can i se the back of that musical fidelty thanks jen

jandl100
13-08-2009, 20:16
can i se the back of that musical fidelty thanks jen

Hi Jen

Nope! It's sold and gone. Ask Ali Tait, its new owner! :)

It was a fairly empty rear view - a couple of input RCA sockets, 2 pairs of output binding posts per channel, and a mains socket.

jandl100
18-08-2009, 06:57
Ooo-err ... ! :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Krell400xiEDAD1000DAC.jpg

a Krell 400xi integrated amp would seem to have appeared on my shelves - now where did that come from? :scratch:

It sounded total shite for the 1st hour or so, but once it had warmed thru ....


If the Lord spake thusly - "Jerry, thou shalt box-swap no more" I think I would be happy. Well, with the Krell amp and Infinity speakers anyway. Providing the Lord agreed to miraculously provide any necessary maintenance on said kit. ;)

The Krell seemeth, oops, seems to provide the rich tonality & dimensionality of the classic Quad II valve amps that I loved so much but with detail, transparency, focus, energy, propulsion, pizzaz, control and authority that the Quad amps sadly lacked.

OK - let's just say it provides excellent synergy with my Infinity speakers. :smoking:

.... and I'll probably have gone off it by tomorrow! :lol:

Marco
18-08-2009, 07:05
LOL. Krells are funny beasts... I've heard them sound both totally shit and also sublime. Fortunately, your beastie comes from the latter camp :)

You certainly can't fault the build quality!

Marco.

Mike Reed
18-08-2009, 08:44
You're unbelievable, JERRY.

There can't be many dealers that change their stock as frequently as you do.

Maybe you ARE a closet dealer, but if all this box-swapping is driving you to religion......................

Beethoven's 'Choral' should sort things out and put class A solid state electronics to the test (and your neighbours too, no doubt !)

jandl100
03-09-2009, 11:08
New arrival!

A stonkingly good valve hybrid pre-amp ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/URUnicopre-front.jpg

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/URUnicopreinnards.jpg

A Unison Research Unico pre-amp. Lovely phonostage, too! :cool:

twelvebears
06-09-2009, 08:32
Following my unsuccessful venture into the world of Horning speakers, a swap deal has resulted in the acquisition of some ProAc Studio 140 speakers and a Pro-Ject Tube Box phono stage.

The ProAcs are quite pretty aren't they?

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ProAcStudio1401.jpg

I first wired the ProAcs up to my MF A370 solid state amp. Yuk - big mistake. What have I done? The sound was bloated, bland and lo-rez. Hmmm ... these are for the Classifieds, pronto!

ProAcs are often an easy amp load, though, so I thought I'd hook up my Chinese OTL valve monoblocks. I hadn't used them in ages - they are no use at all with my 4 Ohm average Audio Physic Virgos.
Wow - zounds & bejeebers! Music - room filling, hi-rez, spacious and wonderful, and full of vitality and pizzazz! :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ProAc140OTL.jpg

And those OTL amps look so purdy glowing away (and usefully heating the room!).

The ProAcs are pointing pretty much straight ahead, with their griilles on - the treble gets a little enthusiastic otherwise.

And that Pro-Ject Tube Box phono stage is a little honey, too - it's sitting on the floor between the amps and the speaker - it replaced (and thoroughly stomped on) an MF X-LPSv3 / X-PSUv3 combo.

Nice choice of giant lava lamp.... have exactly the same one myself.

And *@&$ me, that ole 370 is MASSIVE!

jandl100
02-10-2009, 07:08
And these are very nice, too .... :)

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ThetaCDTandDAC.jpg

That Theta is the best DAC I've heard by a country mile ..... unless you are totally focussed on bass performance, in which case I'd vote for my old EAD DSP-1000 Series 3.

jandl100
13-10-2009, 07:06
New amps in the main system at Chateau Jerry .....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Behringerbi-amp.jpg

:smoking:

jandl100
13-10-2009, 07:27
And a completely (well, almost) new 2nd system for the conservatory ....

Usher X-719 standmounts ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Usher-conservatory.jpg

Don't they go well in there! :)

and a Melody SP3 valve integrated amp, with a valve-loving, colour-coordinated cat called Sooty ...

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MelodySP3andSooty-small.jpg

All fed by a boring looking Sony minidisc player (so I shan't show a photo!). I'm deliberately not including another source as I have a stash-load of wonderful recordings off-radio on minidisc which I never play on my main system for some reason. :mental: So this 2nd system is a great opportunity to correct this. :)

& all together .... yes, the place is in a bit of chaos as the ginger cat on his blanket behind his radiator is in the process of deceasing thru kidney failure (he's 15 going on 16) and if he wants to sit there with all his 'comfort paraphanalia', so be it!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MelodySP3UsherandSooty.jpg

Primalsea
13-10-2009, 18:11
Hi Jerry, what do you think of those power amps?? I head that they're not bad in a Hifi World review a while back.

Do you know any thing about electronics?? I have a suspicion they are not biased for minimum crossover distortion but instead biased to run cooler. You can adjust this easily if you know what to do.

jandl100
14-10-2009, 06:06
Hi Jerry, what do you think of those power amps??

Bloody good. Even better when bi-amped when they seem to come even more alive, at least into my speakers. I had a Wigwam-Mate come around the other day - actually he was selling me his Behringer A500 to turn my rig into the bi-amped setup I have now - he's got a very nice system himself including Zu speakers. .... He wasn't much looking forward to going home and listening to his own rig ... ! ;)

To be perfectly honest, in an unsighted audition I think that they would just sound like great highend amps. Yes, you can get different sonic 'flavours' with other ss and of course valves - but in terms of absolute quality they are very convincing indeed. If I wasn't an incurable Box Swapper I could easily live with them. I had a Krell 400xi integrated quite recently, imho the Behringer shows it the door - the Krell sounded coloured in the bass and smoothed over in mid and high detail compared to a single Behringer. I don't honestly think there is a single sonic aspect where I prefer the Krell. And that gets even more so with 2 of them. Some folks might not take to the Behringer bass which is deep and powerful but a little dry compared to many 'audiophile' amps - I reckon that it might just be accurate! :)


Do you know any thing about electronics??

No! :scratch:


I have a suspicion they are not biased for minimum crossover distortion but instead biased to run cooler. You can adjust this easily if you know what to do.

I'll have to invite someone intelligent around for that! :lol: But yes, they do run cool.

twelvebears
14-10-2009, 08:53
You're unbelievable, JERRY.

There can't be many dealers that change their stock as frequently as you do.

Maybe you ARE a closet dealer, but if all this box-swapping is driving you to religion......................

Beethoven's 'Choral' should sort things out and put class A solid state electronics to the test (and your neighbours too, no doubt !)

Yup. There can be no doubt that Jerry does have a problem.

However, as Jerry already clearly says he's 'an unrepentant box-swapper', this does rather call into the question the truth of the saying that the firsts step to dealing with a problem, is admitting that you have one. :)

jandl100
14-10-2009, 09:13
Yup. There can be no doubt that Jerry does have a problem. :)

Problem? Nope, I ain't got no problem, guv.

I just need my next hifi fix! .... NOW!



It's true that I do spend most of my time peering out the window looking for the next courier van to appear .... ;)

Just hooked up my new XLO digital balanced cable, and yesterday eve plumbed in my new Acurus A250 amp .... now where is that Quad 77 amp for my conservatory system? .... damn couriers ....

Marc B
26-10-2009, 15:24
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Behringerbi-amp.jpg

I don't know why but I always assumed that Unico Pre was alot smaller.

Let me know when you're about to sell please mate

p.s. it's the bloke who mailed you the other day about your old EAR preamp :)

jandl100
26-10-2009, 21:36
I don't know why but I always assumed that Unico Pre was alot smaller.

Let me know when you're about to sell please mate

p.s. it's the bloke who mailed you the other day about your old EAR preamp :)

Hi Marc :wave:

Yep, the UnicoPRE is not small.

No plans to sell yet -it's bloody good, the best I've heard, I reckon! :)

jandl100
23-11-2009, 08:55
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MLScenario.jpg

Martin Logan Scenario hybrid electrostatics. :)

OMG - but these are seriously cute! :eek:

4 foot tall and as neat and well-formed as they come.

I picked them up yesterday - another eBay curiosity purchase. :smoking:

I've never got on with ML hybrids (the full range CLSiiz stats I had earlier this year are really a quite different category of speaker). I've had several dealer dems over the years and all I have heard suffer from lack of integration between stat panel and bass cone woofer. Various comments on t'internet and a fairly rave review (http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-loudspeakers/floorstanding-loudspeakers/martinlogan-scenario-loudspeakers.html) implied that the baby of the range, the Scenario, might do things better. An eBay auction with a start price of £495 only attracted 1 bidder - me - Lord knows why - these retail at £2k ... :scratch:. Very nice condition - pretty much Minty, really - but no boxes so pick-up only - maybe that was the reason for the lack of interest?

Early days yet, but bass/stat integration seems extremely good - it hasn't arisen as an issue at all in my listening so far (admittedly only a few hours).

Heh, these can really pump out the decibels, and the 8 inch bass is taut and fast - which is essential for keeping up with the electrostatic mid/tweeter panel (the x-over point is 500Hz).

They sound good just plunking them down where they fit in - will need to move my big Infinity ribbon hybrids out of the way to give the MLs room to breathe and optimise the placement.

Sadly, my Melody SP3 valve amp (38wpc) is simply not up to the task of driving these, bass is weak and the overall result is a very bright and squeaky sound.
They work extremely well with one of my Behringer A500 amps though - 120wpc and detailed, clean and powerful. Sadly, the Scenarios are only single-wired so I can't bi-amp with my two A500's.

They have exceeded my expectations so far - but there is a fair bit more work to do to set them up properly, I suspect. :cool:

Alex_UK
23-11-2009, 09:19
Very nice Jerry! Presumably then the A500's can't be run in bridged mono mode?

jandl100
23-11-2009, 09:53
Very nice Jerry! Presumably then the A500's can't be run in bridged mono mode?

Yes - they can - which is where the A500 moniker comes from - a (probably over-optimistic) 500W in bridged mode.

But as I understand it, with low impedance loads like MLs, bridging is not a wise thing to do .... I'm happy (and eager) to try it if folks think it is a safe thing to do .... thoughts, anyone? :)

Alex_UK
23-11-2009, 10:27
Yes - they can - which is where the A500 moniker comes from - a (probably over-optimistic) 500W in bridged mode.

But as I understand it, with low impedance loads like MLs, bridging is not a wise thing to do .... I'm happy (and eager) to try it if folks think it is a safe thing to do .... thoughts, anyone? :)

Ah, I see - I wasn't aware of that so PLEASE don't try on my account! :eek:

jandl100
16-12-2009, 10:53
Latest acquisition chez-Jerry.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/ChordCPM2600f1.jpg

I fancied a bit of a change from the mainly valve-based systems I've been enjoying recently - I thought this would fit the bill nicely! :eek:

A very different presentation to what I have been used to ... but some fiddling with cables and speaker position and it is now singing very sweetly indeed.

Fine detail is probably the best I have ever heard in my setup, but not a pleasant or musical sound initially - a tendency to brightness (sorted with a cable change) and a 2D soundstage (sorted by re-positioning and toeing in the speakers).

My Unison Research UnicoPRE valve pre-amp is now up for sale. :)

jandl100
16-12-2009, 11:06
Oh, and this has come along recently, too ... very nice indeed!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/LoricraftMissingLinkphonostage.jpg

chris@panteg
16-12-2009, 11:55
Hi Jerry

My word you do get through some serious stuff ' i rather like the Chord it looks stunning ' and have always been impressed with the build quality .

Martin would not disagree i am sure '

MartinT
19-12-2009, 11:22
I fancied a bit of a change from the mainly valve-based systems I've been enjoying recently - I thought this would fit the bill nicely!

Hi Jerry, you're the first person I've seen on AoS that has Chord equipment apart from me. Interesting that you use the word 'sweet', I would agree that they are but they need extremely clean partnering electronics and cables if they are not to sound bright. Set up just so, I don't think you can beat them for detail and speed, not to mention sheer whack.

jandl100
19-12-2009, 11:41
Hi Jerry, you're the first person I've seen on AoS that has Chord equipment apart from me.

Hi, fellow Chord fan! :)

Have you seen my full review/blog? http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=88524#post88524

It is definitely an ongoing adventure!

Hydie
19-12-2009, 11:45
Hi Jerry, you're the first person I've seen on AoS that has Chord equipment apart from me. Interesting that you use the word 'sweet', I would agree that they are but they need extremely clean partnering electronics and cables if they are not to sound bright. Set up just so, I don't think you can beat them for detail and speed, not to mention sheer whack.

I've used Chord amplification for years and CDP for the last couple, I think it's great and would upgrade with Chord.

Primalsea
19-12-2009, 14:08
Hi Jerry, you're the first person I've seen on AoS that has Chord equipment apart from me. Interesting that you use the word 'sweet', I would agree that they are but they need extremely clean partnering electronics and cables if they are not to sound bright. Set up just so, I don't think you can beat them for detail and speed, not to mention sheer whack.

cough cough

jandl100
19-12-2009, 15:18
Throat pastilles can be very effective for colds & chills. ;)

REM
19-12-2009, 18:01
Hi Jerry, you're the first person I've seen on AoS that has Chord equipment apart from me. Interesting that you use the word 'sweet', I would agree that they are but they need extremely clean partnering electronics and cables if they are not to sound bright. Set up just so, I don't think you can beat them for detail and speed, not to mention sheer whack.

Question is though, how long before the NEXT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx5j-FuqeI) amp comes along....

MartinT
19-12-2009, 18:03
cough cough

I'm scratching my head...

jandl100
19-12-2009, 21:00
Question is though, how long before the NEXT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx5j-FuqeI) amp comes along....

I just like to try different things.

Why do people persecute me about this?

A perfectly sensible review thread on the Wigwam forum was ruined by a rash of posts like this. :rolleyes:

.... sorry, but I've really had enough .... (Just call me Mr Grouchy this evening! ;))

Primalsea
19-12-2009, 21:06
I'm scratching my head...

DAC64 ;)

MartinT
19-12-2009, 22:41
DAC64

Aha! I couldn't find anything in your profile but guessed you must have something.

Macca
20-12-2009, 00:05
I just like to try different things.

Why do people persecute me about this?

A perfectly sensible review thread on the Wigwam forum was ruined by a rash of posts like this. :rolleyes:

.... sorry, but I've really had enough .... (Just call me Mr Grouchy this evening! ;))

Jerry

I wouldn't worry about it; I think a lot of people follow your thread with interest - and I would do the same as you if I could only be bothered to sell the stuff back out again when I'm bored/have bought something better.

Regards

jandl100
20-12-2009, 07:52
Thanks, Martin.

I'm feeling better this morning! :lol:

jandl100
07-01-2010, 09:18
New power amp!

Sitting above the excellent Chord ... Beauty and the Beast (but which one is which?!) and in fact currently running from the Chord's pre-out sockets, although I do have an Eva2 passive LDR pre-amp on order that I plan to use with it.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/CroftChordamps.jpg

A Croft Series 5 Mk2S power amp. :) I just couldn't resist when it came along on eBay!

A very open and fast sound with somewhat brighter tonality than the warmed up Chord. Very articulate and musically communicative (is that a word? :scratch:) and it's 25wpc are well able to drive my Infinity speakers.

DSJR
07-01-2010, 10:00
Ah, NOW you're talking :lol:

A lovely little giant-killer amp that one, with an "updated" bright-n-breezy Quad II kind of sound I thought. The Series IV was beefier but slightly rounded in tone by comparison.

Can you hang on to this one please? Get a 25 basic preamp for it ;)

jandl100
07-01-2010, 10:10
"Bright & breezy" - yup, that's it! :eyebrows:

I used to have a Croft 4SA, in fact it was my very first valve amp many years ago! And yes, I remember it as somewhat warm-toned and a little forgiving - certainly more so that the Series 5mk2.

Hang on to it? What a strange idea. :scratch:

But, yes, I do plan to - perhaps a Croft pre would be nice, but I am addicted to the insidious benefits of volume remote control!

DSJR
07-01-2010, 14:40
Nah, you've got to be a masochist and deal with TWO MANUAL volume controls :D

You'll get a decent phono stage too...

jandl100
07-01-2010, 15:37
Nah, you've got to be a masochist and deal with TWO MANUAL volume controls :D


Well, I've got a remote controlled LDR pre-amp on order, so I could put that in series with it .... ;) But I guess that isn't quite what you meant. :lol:

MartinT
07-01-2010, 17:27
I always hated my Croft SIP's two volume controls.

Themis
07-01-2010, 19:57
Jerry

I wouldn't worry about it; I think a lot of people follow your thread with interest - and I would do the same as you if I could only be bothered to sell the stuff back out again when I'm bored/have bought something better.

Regards
Exactly !

Cheers, Jerry. :cool:

DSJR
07-01-2010, 20:06
I always hated my Croft SIP's two volume controls.

You really do get used to it. I'd prefer two switched attenuators though, but I need 1M ones and they're pretty impossible to find I reckon...

MartinT
07-01-2010, 21:25
You could make one, say 22-way rotary with a range switch. With good resistors it would outperform any tracked pot.

Ali Tait
07-01-2010, 21:46
Yep,Hi-Fi Collective sell stepped attenuator kits.Choose your own resistors.

jandl100
20-01-2010, 11:10
Well, my Chord CPM 2600 integrated amp is 'resting' - and I've plucked up my courage and turned it off, to see if it regains its clinical & bright sound it initially started out with. Some forum members elsewhere are extremely dubious about my claims in this regard! :lol:
Anyways, I'll report back on that issue on my Chord amp review thread when I re-insert the Chord at some point.

But at the moment this is my amplification line-up ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Eva2EEBBACroft.jpg

An Eva2 LDR remote-controlled passive pre, an Eastern Electric BBA valve buffer and a Croft Series 5 Mk2S power amp.

.... and I have to say it sounds bloody good. :eek:

It doesn't have quite the weight and gravitas of the Chord amp, nor quite its dynamic punch or bass tautness.
But it gains in openness, detail, mid and treble speed and articulation and image focus & 3D soundstage. Not that the Chord is at all bad at any of these things - if audio memory can in any way be relied upon, the Chord is the most musically enjoyable solid state amp I have heard. But there is something about a good valve setup, isn't there! ... and that LDR pre is a mighty transparent device, although I do find it a bit upfront and just too clean without the EE BBA valve buffer in situ.

jandl100
10-02-2010, 13:30
Well, the Croft Series 5 has gone.

But here's something that arrived this morning ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/AI500amp.jpg

.... an Audio Innovations 500 integrated amp with Sovtek 5881 power and Mullard input toobs. Only an hour or 2 on it so far ... but it sounds very nice indeed with a very fine mm phonostage which I use with a couple of x6 Partridge transformers with for my Orty Rondo Bronze.

I think this will be more of a keeper than the Croft - it has a fuller somewhat less excitable sound that seems rather more musically relaxing so far.

electric beach
10-02-2010, 13:59
Hi Jerry

You mentioned that you have (had) a REL Strata 5 sub, I use a Strata 3.

Have you any experience to pass on regarding a speaker cable; I bought the unit used and it didn't come with the REL lead. At the moment it's dear Auntie Andrews 4PR but I prefer solid core for all cables.

Thanks,

Barry
10-02-2010, 18:19
Well, the Croft Series 5 has gone.

But here's something that arrived this morning ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/AI500amp.jpg

.... an Audio Innovations 500 integrated amp with Sovtek 5881 power and Mullard input toobs. Only an hour or 2 on it so far ... but it sounds very nice indeed with a very fine mm phonostage which I use with a couple of x6 Partridge transformers with for my Orty Rondo Bronze.

I think this will be more of a keeper than the Croft - it has a fuller somewhat less excitable sound that seems rather more musically relaxing so far.

A friend of mine has one of those. Yes they are very nice. Does yours have the input selector switch upgrade?

My friend's AI 500 uses valves obtained from the Chelmer Valve Company (just up the road from me!).

Regards

jandl100
10-02-2010, 18:30
Hi Jerry

You mentioned that you have (had) a REL Strata 5 sub, I use a Strata 3.

Have you any experience to pass on regarding a speaker cable; I bought the unit used and it didn't come with the REL lead. At the moment it's dear Auntie Andrews 4PR but I prefer solid core for all cables.

Thanks,

Hi S&V

Yup - nice subs - although I have full range speakers at the moment and don't feel the need for one now.

Must admit that you have asked the wrong person about this! Cable Fan though I am, I have never been able to hear much of a difference between cables on a subwoofer. Maybe it's because I usually use the RCA interconnect connections rather than the speaker cable option? Or maybe it's that with my classical-music leanings, wall-shaking bass is not of much interest and maybe that's where cable differences become important with subs? Dunno!

Anyone else got any experience here?

jandl100
10-02-2010, 18:35
A freind of mine has one of those. Yes they are very nice. Does yours have the input selector switch upgrade?

My friend's AI 500 uses valves obtained from the Chelmer Valve Company (just up the road from me!).

Regards

Hi Barry

I'll probably only be keeping this for a couple of months as I have some new speakers on order and I doubt this fine little beastie will drive them - be interesting to find out, though. It certainly drives my Infinity's with enthusiasm. 25WPC? - sounds a lot more! But I guess that's valves for you.

No, I don't think it has the selector upgrade, I'm not sure. I'm thinking of using it as a power amp by going in thru the tape outs and bypassing that gubbins anyway. Do you think that would work?

DSJR
10-02-2010, 19:03
Well, the Croft Series 5 has gone.

But here's something that arrived this morning ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/AI500amp.jpg

.... an Audio Innovations 500 integrated amp with Sovtek 5881 power and Mullard input toobs. Only an hour or 2 on it so far ... but it sounds very nice indeed with a very fine mm phonostage which I use with a couple of x6 Partridge transformers with for my Orty Rondo Bronze.

I think this will be more of a keeper than the Croft - it has a fuller somewhat less excitable sound that seems rather more musically relaxing so far.

Mega :fence: :vomfest:

Hope the cap surrounded by hot resistors has been replaced (must have been by now) and you haven't totally lost the lovely lively treble you gained with the Croft Series V.

No wonder these AI amps were used with screechy Snells. They needed to be IMO :lol: The A500 even removed the sssting from some pro-Acs too....

You could at least have got the pre and power amps (First and second?). At least they were more neutral with the relaxation IMO :D

hifi_dave
10-02-2010, 19:37
We sold so many of those back in the day. It was a similar price to the Audiolab 8000A which was the mags fave but we sold three Series 500 for every Audiolab.

Those were the days...:)

DSJR
10-02-2010, 19:41
Yeah, and you got more than three times as many as Audiolabs back for service too - and don't deny it, my memory's not THAT bad you know...:D

jandl100
10-02-2010, 23:24
Mega :fence: :vomfest:

Hope the cap surrounded by hot resistors has been replaced (must have been by now) and you haven't totally lost the lovely lively treble you gained with the Croft Series V.

No wonder these AI amps were used with screechy Snells. They needed to be IMO :lol: The A500 even removed the sssting from some pro-Acs too....

You could at least have got the pre and power amps (First and second?). At least they were more neutral with the relaxation IMO :D

Not your cuppa char, eh Dave? :lol:

... not sure I've seen you so 'down' on a piece of kit before! :scratch:

Well, these things are all relative .... the 'lovely lively treble' of the Croft was a bit OTT for me - never could quite settle down with it - a bit too bright & breezy for me, I guess.

Tbh - at least with my kit, and this evening bypassing the AI's pre section by going in via the tape-outs and using my Chord amp's pre section (so gaining remote control :eyebrows:) the whole shebang was very lucid and articulate, but with a pleasing weight and gravitas. A better balanced sound for me - I liked it a lot :ner:

Barry
10-02-2010, 23:27
Hi Barry

I'll probably only be keeping this for a couple of months as I have some new speakers on order and I doubt this fine little beastie will drive them - be interesting to find out, though. It certainly drives my Infinity's with enthusiasm. 25WPC? - sounds a lot more! But I guess that's valves for you.

No, I don't think it has the selector upgrade, I'm not sure. I'm thinking of using it as a power amp by going in thru the tape outs and bypassing that gubbins anyway. Do you think that would work?

Hi Jerry,

Don't see why this shouldn't work. I believe Neil (Dalek Supreme) has some knowledge of these amps; he might be able to add his opinion on this.

Regards

jandl100
10-02-2010, 23:46
Yep, Barry - I tried it this evening and bypassing the pre section in this way and using the pre-outs from my Chord 2600 amp opened up the sound very nicely ..... and gave me remote control! :)

The Grand Wazoo
11-02-2010, 00:29
Jerry,
For the price at the time (£500) it was a great little amp in the right system - I've heard it sound marvellous.
The early ones were guaranteed to fail though. I've been told that at one point the returns to the factory actually exceeded 100% of all those that had been built at the time (because some went back twice or more!). Lookout Toyota!!!

But I'm told that if it's lasted this long it will be fine (either it received the necessary modification or it was built after they had the design sorted).

Others may clarify this.

DSJR
11-02-2010, 20:56
Jerry,
For the price at the time (£500) it was a great little amp in the right system - I've heard it sound marvellous.
The early ones were guaranteed to fail though. I've been told that at one point the returns to the factory actually exceeded 100% of all those that had been built at the time (because some went back twice or more!). Lookout Toyota!!!

But I'm told that if it's lasted this long it will be fine (either it received the necessary modification or it was built after they had the design sorted).

Others may clarify this.

I rest my case :lol:

Seriously, it's a bit too soft toned - i.e. - wrong - for my tastes. At least the Croft Series 4Sa had some "push" to go with its warmth...

Until the next one....... :eyebrows: :lolsign: :cool:

jandl100
11-02-2010, 22:35
I rest my case :lol:

Seriously, it's a bit too soft toned - i.e. - wrong - for my tastes. At least the Croft Series 4Sa had some "push" to go with its warmth...

Until the next one....... :eyebrows: :lolsign: :cool:

Nope - you're wrong, Dave. And I'm pretty sure I know why ....

The AI 500 as AI intended is an el34-based amp. Mine has 5881 power tubes.

All (and I mean ALL, to a greater or lesser extent) el34 amps I have owned or heard have been pipe&slipper machines that, for my tastes, extract the pizzaz from the music. I'll wager a penny to a £10 note that it's the AI500 using el34 toobs that you are basing your opinion on. I can assure you that my amp with 5881's is quite nicely lively and in no way a snooze-machine, thanks very much .... :ner:

MartinT
11-02-2010, 22:44
I felt the same way about the Croft Series 4S that I still have in my garage. Running on EL34 valves it too had soft edges and lacked some go. Glenn Croft then upgraded it to 6550 valves which certainly gave it more edginess and shear brute force in the bass. I just never liked it as much as the Leak Stereo 20 I also have, especially in the midrange.

jandl100
11-02-2010, 23:01
I felt the same way about the Croft Series 4S that I still have in my garage. Running on EL34 valves it too had soft edges and lacked some go. Glenn Croft then upgraded it to 6550 valves which certainly gave it more edginess and shear brute force in the bass. I just never liked it as much as the Leak Stereo 20 I also have, especially in the midrange.

Thanks Martin. :) ... I agree also that the Leak St20 is a mighty fine amp!

Hey Dave !! - I rest my case :lol: :lol: :lol: :ner:

Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 23:12
Do folks feel the same way about Radford el34 amps then?

jandl100
11-02-2010, 23:23
Do folks feel the same way about Radford el34 amps then?

I've not heard a Radford el34 myself.

But el34 amps I have heard/owned include Papworth, PrimaLuna (1 integrated and 1 pair of monos), a Chinese MingDa ... and others I can't bring to mind at the moment ...
The MingDa had the most musical interest - the others noted were definite snooze machines with el34, but the PrimaLuna integrated picked up a lot when the el34 were swapped out.

The Grand Wazoo
11-02-2010, 23:25
Do folks feel the same way about Radford el34 amps then?

Nope! The Radford does not possess the 'vintage bass' syndrome, not to my ears anyway.

I know what you mean though. I had an obscure US amp that was loosely based on a Dynaco ST70. With EL34's it just sounded like any old EL34 amp. It fizzled out one day & as a side effect of the work I had done to resurrect it, it gained the ability to take alternative valve types. In the bass region it was completely transformed.

Ali Tait
11-02-2010, 23:54
Possibly down to the quality of the ironwork.Radford are known for their excellent transformers.

Barry
12-02-2010, 00:52
I felt the same way about the Croft Series 4S that I still have in my garage. Running on EL34 valves it too had soft edges and lacked some go. Glenn Croft then upgraded it to 6550 valves which certainly gave it more edginess and shear brute force in the bass. I just never liked it as much as the Leak Stereo 20 I also have, especially in the midrange.

This month's HiFi News has Ken Kessler raving about the Leak ST-20. He says it works well into Quad ESL 57s. I'm surprised at this, as I have found that 10 watts is not enough, yet the 15 watt Quad II seems OK. Perhaps the Leak can produce more than 10 watts. Anyway Kessler gives the Leak a score of 87/100. Not bad for a design that is over 50 years old. The down side is of course that the prices will increase even more.

Actually this is 'sour grapes' on my behalf. At the tender age of 19, the father of a school chum, who had a pretty good system in those days (he used Wharfdale SFB-3s, sand filled open baffle speakers), offered to sell me his Leak SL-20 for a very reasonable figure (something like £20 or £25) as he was going to buy a Rotel ss amp (of all things). As an impecunious undergraduate I just didn't have the money and could not afford it. :wah:

Perhaps I should have asked my father for a loan.

Regards

DSJR
12-02-2010, 08:00
Kessler writes what his fanbois want to read. He gets more work that way and enjoys the adulation...

I never thought the Stereo 20 deserving of all this fanw@nk, finding it a bit "etched" and almost hard toned. Must have heard a bad 'un. I understand it was the Stereo 60 (?) that was the real giant killer...

I loved some TL12's I once borrowed for a few weeks though.

jandl100
12-02-2010, 08:19
Yes, the Leak St20 is of the 'forward' persuasion, ime. Very very nice, though, if you don't mind that. A very different beast to a Quad II, for example.

I thought the Leaks got worse as they got bigger? I've only ever owned the St20, though.

DSJR
12-02-2010, 08:22
If HiFi dave can remember, he'll tell you as he's owned 'em all... (and still has a treasure or two tucked away I believe.

jandl100
12-02-2010, 08:33
Come on DaveSJR - after all those humourous emoticons, you owe me an answer as to whether you'd formed your opinions on the AI500 with el34 choobs or not! ;)


... this is a Marco-style "don't evade the issue" !!

Ali Tait
12-02-2010, 08:41
I've heard one that had been totally rebuilt with all new components.It was a while ago now,but I don't remember it being particularly forward,in fact it sounded very like a KEL 84,not surprising since they are both PP EL84,so rather nice really!

Barry,I'm not surprised one will drive the Quads.I used to use an original Sugden A21 with mine,which at 7w/ch drove them very well indeed,and a very synergistic pairing too IMO.

As for KK,he probably bought a few before he wrote the article!

jandl100
12-02-2010, 08:58
A year back, maybe 18 months, I bought and sold a really clean and just-serviced Leak St20 for £300 - they're going for way more than that now. :scratch: ... it's funny how audio fashion comes & goes.

Same thing with Celestion Ditton 66 speakers - couldn't used to move 'em for £300 ... now they fetch £600+ on fleaBay. :rolleyes:

Ali Tait
12-02-2010, 09:23
Even then,that's bloody cheap Jerry! Worth getting one or two at that price as an investment.If I'd known 10 years ago how much much vintage stuff would go up in price... Some stuff you couldn't give away then.

Marco
12-02-2010, 15:19
... this is a Marco-style "don't evade the issue" !!


Hehehe... We can't have any of this 'evasive wankery' going on, can we, old chap? :eyebrows:

Dave, you owe the man an answer, so slip out of yer floral nightie, put some pants on, and come out from hiding! :ner:

Marco.

DSJR
12-02-2010, 15:27
Come on DaveSJR - after all those humourous emoticons, you owe me an answer as to whether you'd formed your opinions on the AI500 with el34 choobs or not! ;)


... this is a Marco-style "don't evade the issue" !!

I've been doing something known as work, don't you know.....:scratch:

I can't remember what the A500 had now, but i'm sure they had EL34's didn't they?

I just found the two i heard a bit rolled off and "nice" sounding, in the same way you may find a big pro amp a bit relentless (opposite in other words). One of the A500 owners "upgraded" to the mono's with preamp and I found them much less rose-tinted myself.

Is that a sort of satisfactory answer?

Barry
12-02-2010, 18:11
I've heard one that had been totally rebuilt with all new components.It was a while ago now,but I don't remember it being particularly forward,in fact it sounded very like a KEL 84,not surprising since they are both PP EL84,so rather nice really!

Barry,I'm not surprised one will drive the Quads.I used to use an original Sugden A21 with mine,which at 7w/ch drove them very well indeed,and a very synergistic pairing too IMO.

As for KK,he probably bought a few before he wrote the article!

Hi Ali,

My second amplifier consisted of the output circuits of the Sugden A21 amp (I knew someone who knew Jim Sugden, who could get me the parts) fed by the Sugden C51 preamp. The A21 was supposed to be 12.5W. I found this insufficient when I got my Quads, yet as I say, I have run the Quads with the Quad II amps and (not surprisingly) it's fine. 15W is only 0.8dB more than 12.5W, so I can only assume that the sensitivity of the power amplifier section of the A21 is less than the 0.5V that the C51 produced.

Regards

Ali Tait
12-02-2010, 18:26
Yes,possibly.I found no lack of volume with mine.I did like the way it sounded too!

Spectral Morn
12-02-2010, 19:14
Sorry Jerry

I am coming a bit late to this thread.

AI Series 500 is a very good amplifier imho. I have owned and still do own one since new back in 1990 ish. They were supplied with El34. I used mine this way and loved it. Dave DSJR seems to indicate that they are warm and wooly...nope. A bit veiled perhaps, but not warm and wooly, and on a bad day it can be brightish.

Reliability on AI kit was very good (got the odd bad one. When they went it was spectacular though. Bridge rectifiers were a particular issue as was EL34's shorting) compared to many items at the time late 80's to mid 90's. The general opinion and this would be Guys as well, is that early ones are better than late ones (better output transformers). If yours has outputs for 4,8 and 16 Ohm, then its one of the better ones.

Using 5881 valves is a worth while upgrade/change. I use these in my AI series 1000 Mk3 monos. Replacing the pots, selectors and crap RCA jacks on the side is a good option and worth doing. Rewiring is also worth while.

I know that Eric Anderson (the designer) had issues/concerns with Peter Q about the case design(when I met him a few years ago we had a laugh about it)...Eric thought it would overheat, Peter preferred the way it ended up looking (as do I). AI kit at the time was regularly referred to, as "The Manhatan Skyline" especially the series 1000 pre and first or second audio amplifiers.

We sold bucket loads of AI kit over the years.

Its a great classic amplifier imho.


Regards D S D L

The Grand Wazoo
12-02-2010, 19:18
Reliability on AI kit was very good (got the odd bad one. When they went it was spectacular though. Bridge rectifiers were a particular issue as was EL34's shorting) compared to many items at the time late 80's to mid 90's.

So is my info on returns incorrect then Neil?

jandl100
12-02-2010, 19:44
I can't remember what the A500 had now, but i'm sure they had EL34's didn't they?

I just found the two i heard a bit rolled off and "nice" sounding, in the same way you may find a big pro amp a bit relentless (opposite in other words). One of the A500 owners "upgraded" to the mono's with preamp and I found them much less rose-tinted myself.

Is that a sort of satisfactory answer?

Yeah, that's fine. :) Thanks Dave.



The general opinion and this would be Guys as well, is that early ones are better than late ones (better output transformers). If yours has outputs for 4,8 and 16 Ohm, then its one of the better ones.

Yes, mine has the 16 ohm taps. :cool:

Using 5881 valves is a worth while upgrade/change. I use these in my AI series 1000 Mk3 monos.

Excellent news! :cool:


Its a great classic amplifier imho.


Regards D S D L

Thanks Neil - I do like it a lot. Currently using it via the tape inputs to bypass some of the switchery, and that has focussed the sound up quite nicely. Using the Chord amp's pre-outs at the moment but as soon as I can get round to it I plan to try my Eva2 LDR passive pre.

I've some 83dB/W sensitivity speakers on order, it'll be interesting to see how well the AI drives them. I'm not a headbanger like some folks here and a lot of my listening is to small scale classical, so it might just work!

I'm planning to try a bit of input tube rolling - it started out chez Jerry with a solid line of Mullards (2 ecc88 and 3 ecc83) - I've now swapped out the Mullard ecc83 for a couple of Watford TADs and a Telefunken - the sound was a bit too warm for me with the Mullards - I got on to the Watford site to order a triplet of cryo-ed TAD 12AX7 only to find that I was 5 hours late and they were now on hols til the 23rd Feb! :doh:

Spectral Morn
12-02-2010, 21:55
So is my info on returns incorrect then Neil?

I can only speak from my own shop based experience at the time. Reliability was very good. If it had not been, 1 I would not have bought AI gear myself then or now and 2 Which should probably be 1, I would not have sold it.

Regards D S D L

Spectral Morn
12-02-2010, 22:01
Yeah, that's fine. :) Thanks Dave.




Thanks Neil - I do like it a lot. Currently using it via the tape inputs to bypass some of the switchery, and that has focussed the sound up quite nicely. Using the Chord amp's pre-outs at the moment but as soon as I can get round to it I plan to try my Eva2 LDR passive pre.

I've some 83dB/W sensitivity speakers on order, it'll be interesting to see how well the AI drives them. I'm not a headbanger like some folks here and a lot of my listening is to small scale classical, so it might just work!

I'm planning to try a bit of input tube rolling - it started out chez Jerry with a solid line of Mullards (2 ecc88 and 3 ecc83) - I've now swapped out the Mullard ecc83 for a couple of Watford TADs and a Telefunken - the sound was a bit too warm for me with the Mullards - I got on to the Watford site to order a triplet of cryo-ed TAD 12AX7 only to find that I was 5 hours late and they were now on hols til the 23rd Feb! :doh:

Waste of time Jerry. The Pre section in the AI 500 is passive. Only the middle ECC83 is a driver, all the other valves are part of the phono stage(worth doing if you are using the phono stage). Your using it through the tape inputs with a better pre proves my point about it being veiled, the pre bit is the weakest element. Better internal cabling (at the time Audio Note Silver was a common option), much better volume pot and source selectors was the only way to improve the pre section. Triode coupling was also popular if you had very sensitive speakers...I myself was not in favour of this...however many did it and loved it. I needed the 25 watts at the time.

I think it will struggle a bit with 83 db speakers...but with all things give it ago.


Regards D S D L

jandl100
12-02-2010, 22:56
Ah, OK - thanks Neil - that'll save me a penny or two.... although I do rather like the onboard phonostage ... with a pair of Partridge transformers it sounds rather good with my Orty Rondo Bronze.

And yes, I kind of expect to sell it on once I get my new speakers, but as you say, you never can quite tell until you try it!

alfie2902
12-02-2010, 23:44
Do you want to roll those Mullards my way Jerry ;)

jandl100
12-02-2010, 23:47
Do you want to roll those Mullards my way Jerry ;)

EDIT: Changed my mind! - Sorry Alfie, but I do expect to be selling the AI500 on in a couple of months time, so it would be nice to have a full set of Mullards to include! :)

pure sound
12-02-2010, 23:49
The very early 500''s were poorly wired up but they did have the very good Hinchley Mains & Output transformers in them (with 4, 8 & 16 ohms) Hinchley used to make the transformers for Leak amongst others., They were eventually taken over by Tamura and then stopped making audio transformers so other suppliers had to be found. The build quality gradually improved but took a leap forwards when production was moved down to Weymouth. Ventilation & layout were sorted. Whenever older 500's came in for repair to Weymouth, they'd be fully stripped & re-built just keeping the original transformers at no cost to the customer and usually without the customer knowing. That was just so they wouldn't come back again. I suspect that the huge majority of 500's still going now will probably have had a re-build. the problem was the EL34's being run at full tilt and many varieties of EL34 not being able to withstand that. They'd lock up, draw excessive current & take out the associated cathode resistor & bypass caps. That would include Mullards too. AI realised early on that none of the Chinese EL34's would last long so never fitted them. The Sovtek ones were the most robust and also sounded good. 5881's always had a slightly richer fruitier sound in a 500 which could be too much of a good thing with some speakers.

Funnily enough Leak had a similar problem with the Stereo 20 to begin with when they were trying to run EL84's at full dissipation. Eventually they had to re-design the OPT's and turn it all down a notch.

Amused by DSJR's Snell comments. Certainly if you attached Snells to the kind of electronics he used to sell they'd soon tell you about rough hf performance. But Snells could sound perfectly sweet on the end of good electronics.:ner:

Marco
12-02-2010, 23:54
Hi Jerry,


Ah, OK - thanks Neil - that'll save me a penny or two.... although I do rather like the onboard phonostage ... with a pair of Partridge transformers it sounds rather good with my Orty Rondo Bronze.


What's up with the Denon - have you fallen out with it already? ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo
12-02-2010, 23:56
The very early 500''s were poorly wired up...........

Thanks a lot for clearing that up - sanity restored!
I've heard that Leak story too and I've heard Snells sounding equally angelic and devellish depending on what they've been hung on the end of.

Spectral Morn
12-02-2010, 23:56
Ah, OK - thanks Neil - that'll save me a penny or two.... although I do rather like the onboard phonostage ... with a pair of Partridge transformers it sounds rather good with my Orty Rondo Bronze.

And yes, I kind of expect to sell it on once I get my new speakers, but as you say, you never can quite tell until you try it!

Hi Jerry

I ran mine with an EAR Head transformer and a Lyra Clavis. TT was an Oracle Delphi Mk 4 with Eminent technology ET2 Linear air bearing arm...it was a magical combination. The phono stage is very good, though the Series 1000 pre being all phono stage (pasive line stage like the series 500) was quite a bit better than the 500's phono stage.


Regards D S D L

jandl100
13-02-2010, 00:20
Hi Jerry,

What's up with the Denon - have you fallen out with it already? ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco

No, not at all.

It turned out the TAF 103 was slightly misaligned in the aluminium body, I only realised this when it was mis-tracking a bit on heavily modulated grooves near the end of side. I hope to get a new one next week. I've got a spare headshell now for my Yamaha tt, so it'll be easy to swap 'em about! I suspect the presentation is sufficiently different to the Orty that I'll want to keep both.

btw - did you get the headshell spacer/weight back OK?

jandl100
13-02-2010, 00:26
Hi Jerry

I ran mine with an EAR Head transformer and a Lyra Clavis. TT was an Oracle Delphi Mk 4 with Eminent technology ET2 Linear air bearing arm...it was a magical combination. The phono stage is very good, though the Series 1000 pre being all phono stage (pasive line stage like the series 500) was quite a bit better than the 500's phono stage.


Regards D S D L

Hi Neil

The tt rig you list there is a fair way ahead of my current little setup, I think, so phonostage diffs will be less obvious to me I expect.

The AI500 'stage sounds pretty good, but I'll do some direct comparisons with my Loricraft Missing Link 'stage soon and see what one I want to use. Enjoying the AI500 'stage, though, it does sound very fine in its own right.

Marco
13-02-2010, 00:48
Hi Jerry,


No, not at all.

It turned out the TAF 103 was slightly misaligned in the aluminium body, I only realised this when it was mis-tracking a bit on heavily modulated grooves near the end of side. I hope to get a new one next week. I've got a spare headshell now for my Yamaha tt, so it'll be easy to swap 'em about! I suspect the presentation is sufficiently different to the Orty that I'll want to keep both.


Don't worry, I was just teasing! Interesting what's happened though... I'm sure you'll get that sorted out ok :)


btw - did you get the headshell spacer/weight back OK?

Ya, sure did brovva - cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Ali Tait
13-02-2010, 01:06
Thanks a lot for clearing that up - sanity restored!
I've heard that Leak story too and I've heard Snells sounding equally angelic and devellish depending on what they've been hung on the end of.

I guess that means that Snells are just a good transparent speaker.Which was my opinion the one time I heard a pair on the end of several different amps.

jandl100
04-04-2010, 10:44
A new toy at Jerry Mansions ... hifi tart that I am, the Chord CPM2600 amp seems to have been ousted from my affections. :eyebrows:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF5535.jpg

Very powerful and in control. Detail and image focus are excellent - makes the Chord sound a bit too relaxed. I love it! :eek:

A very impressive solid state amp - AVI Lab Series Integrated. A big amp in a small package!



.... the Chord amp needs a visit to the factory anyway :( - it doesn't respond properly to remote volume commands. I've spoken to the engineer at Chord and he says the volume knob shaft just needs cleaning as the clutch mech is skidding a bit and operating too soon. Sounds easy, but the volume knob is well and truly hidden amongst the other paraphenalia and despite following his instructions I can't get to it. :scratch: Damn, I hate it when I can't sort out a niggling little problem like this!

chris@panteg
04-04-2010, 11:20
Nice one Jerry

AVI amps are a bit underrated ' i remember them sounding superb at one or two shows back in the 90's .

DSJR
04-04-2010, 12:07
That AVI is Class B as well :eek:

Shows what can be done these days with knowledgeable design and the right components.

Forget Ash if he annoys you, it's Martin Grindrod who designs them and he's a true gentleman :)

Ali Tait
04-04-2010, 14:55
A mate has one of those.A nice amp indeed!

jandl100
04-04-2010, 15:27
That AVI is Class B as well :eek:


Ah - perhaps that explains the mega-power in the shoebox sized chassis? It barely gets warm, too.

Whatever, it does sound fab. :carrot:

Tarzan
04-04-2010, 16:20
Any chance of a review of the AVI Amp Jerry?:)

jandl100
04-04-2010, 17:49
Any chance of a review of the AVI Amp Jerry?:)

WHAT?! :no:

Oh, all right then. :) I'll put summat together over the next few days after widening my listening a bit.

DSJR
04-04-2010, 19:30
AVI made a bloomin' huge footprinted S2000 amp - full width and 17 inches deep or thereabouts. I think it was 200WPC with the wind in the right doirection. Whatever the feelings about the brand, you switched it on, enjoyed loads of music and switched it off when done. No "personality," barely warm to the touch, no fussiness and bother at all. I'd love to hear my pre with one today and with the Mark Grant interconnects I now have.

The Lab series looked superb and had better styling and a heavier finish IMO. I think LS-Designs were making these (or at least stuffing the circuit boards) by this time.

Marco
04-04-2010, 19:35
Nice amp, Jerry.......from the days when AVI made proper hi-fi equipment ;)

Marco.

DSJR
04-04-2010, 19:40
Nice amp, Jerry.......from the days when AVI made proper hi-fi equipment ;)

Marco.

I believe history will say that they still do now....... :ner:

It's just that their current products don't hype up the mid bass as most small boxes do..

Themis
04-04-2010, 22:41
A couple of years ago, I tested an AVI power, and, it was nowhere as good as you seem to find yours, Jerry.
I wonder whether mine was faulty, after all...

jandl100
05-04-2010, 07:06
No "personality," barely warm to the touch, no fussiness and bother at all.

Yup - that pretty much sums up my feelings. There you go, Tarzan, review done! :eyebrows:



I believe history will say that they still do now....... :ner:

It's just that their current products don't hype up the mid bass as most small boxes do..

Nope - I do not buy that at all.

I've had the pleasure (?) of hearing a pair of AVI ADM9 actives a couple of times over the last few weeks. A truly flawed product. Speaker resonances so painfully obvious I'd be ashamed to sell them in Dixons as a £19.99 Special. They really do sound like an empty cardboard box stuffed with a couple of 10p drivers to me. Well, OK .... maybe that's a slight exageration! But it's pretty close to an accurate description. :mental::doh:

jandl100
05-04-2010, 07:11
A couple of years ago, I tested an AVI power, and, it was nowhere as good as you seem to find yours, Jerry.
I wonder whether mine was faulty, after all...

Interesting. I can't believe that was a Lab Series amp like I have - perhaps one of the cheaper plastic fronted jobs? I've not heard those so I have no idea what they sound like.

Marco
05-04-2010, 08:31
I've had the pleasure (?) of hearing a pair of AVI ADM9 actives a couple of times over the last few weeks. A truly flawed product. Speaker resonances so painfully obvious I'd be ashamed to sell them in Dixons as a £19.99 Special. They really do sound like an empty cardboard box stuffed with a couple of 10p drivers to me.



http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2834/sign0004.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/sign0004.gif/) http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2834/sign0004.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/sign0004.gif/) :lol: :lol:

And didn't you also listen to them at the one and only hi-fi show AVI demonstrated them at a couple of years ago? I seem to remember the word "anodyne" being used as part of your vocabulary ;)

Basically, since AVI gave up making REAL hi-fi equipment (i.e. separates and proper sized speakers), they've abandoned any notion of producing equipment which qualifies being labelled as high fidelity!

Marco.

P.S Sorry, Alfie!

jandl100
05-04-2010, 08:54
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2834/sign0004.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/sign0004.gif/) http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2834/sign0004.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/sign0004.gif/) :lol: :lol:



Wow - my very own AOS emoticon. :stalks:

I feel truly honoured. Thanks Marco! :cheers:

.... I guess I'll let Covenant share it if he likes. :)

Marco
05-04-2010, 08:57
It's all part of the service, sire! :)

Marco.

DSJR
05-04-2010, 10:44
We need to kill the AVI annihilation-fest right now and leave the ADM speakers alone, as they play no part in AOS in my opinion.

My final word on the make is that the S2000 series had a perspex front panel set into CAST mouldings, the paint finish of which being easily scratched :(

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/AVIPre1.jpg

Now back to valves, techies and Tannoys please :lol:

Themis
05-04-2010, 10:52
Interesting. I can't believe that was a Lab Series amp like I have - perhaps one of the cheaper plastic fronted jobs? I've not heard those so I have no idea what they sound like.
Don't know. It looked like this one:
http://www.avihifi.co.uk/images_legacy/poweramp.jpg

Marco
05-04-2010, 11:06
Hi Dave,


We need to kill the AVI annihilation-fest right now and leave the ADM speakers alone, as they play no part in AOS in my opinion.


As long as Ashley James, Farney, and other blinkered puppets of their ilk, continue their ridiculous campaign against 'legacy hi-fi' on the HDDA forum, then their toy computer speakers are fair game for appropriate ridicule ;)

Marco.

DSJR
05-04-2010, 11:13
Who actually looks in there except you and me (and the ADM owners)?

Themis
05-04-2010, 11:24
Bah, who cares, anyway.

REM
05-04-2010, 11:51
We need to kill the AVI annihilation-fest right now and .....:


Yes Yes Kill Kill AVI Kill ......oh that's not what you meant, oh well I'll STFU then:lol::lol:

jandl100
05-04-2010, 11:58
Don't know. It looked like this one:
http://www.avihifi.co.uk/images_legacy/poweramp.jpg

Yup, that's the same series as my amp so probably has similar innards and sound.

I have no idea how it measures, but it sounds very very good and exerts impressive authority over my current speakers.

jandl100
05-04-2010, 12:11
Hi Dave,

As long as Ashley James, Farney, and other blinkered puppets of their ilk, continue their ridiculous campaign against 'legacy hi-fi' on the HDDA forum, then their toy computer speakers are fair game for appropriate ridicule ;)

Marco.

:scratch:

Well, I have no interest in that forum and care even less about what they say.

I was just responding to Dave's comments ....


I believe history will say that they still do now....... :ner:

It's just that their current products don't hype up the mid bass as most small boxes do..

IMHO the ADM9 is a deeply flawed product and should never have been released onto the market. I suspect that it is only the superbly enacted marketing hype that sells these abominations. I agree with Marco in that I would not classify it as a high fidelity product. It has low-fi sound at a mid-fi price.

Based on my experience, the older AVI kit is an entirely different story. I suspect that the difference lies in a change of leading role within the company - it used to be audio engineering-led, it is now marketing hype-led. Very sad, but probably very profitable!

jandl100
05-04-2010, 12:18
I'm on the lookout for more AVI Lab Series kit ... any suggestions/offers?

Yeah, I know about the cdp on eBay ... shhhhh! :)

DSJR
05-04-2010, 12:22
I said i wouldn't answer, so I won't, except to say that like going from a big fast car to a little family shopping-trolley, owner/lovers of good big speakers just can't and won't understand small ones, no matter how good they may be (or not).

Anyway, give it a week or two and Jerry will have changed his amp again ;)

jandl100
05-04-2010, 12:46
Anyway, give it a week or two and Jerry will have changed his amp again ;)

Of course!

So much hifi, so little time! :eek:

alfie2902
05-04-2010, 13:23
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2834/sign0004.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/sign0004.gif/) http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2834/sign0004.gif (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/sign0004.gif/) :lol: :lol:

And didn't you also listen to them at the one and only hi-fi show AVI demonstrated them at a couple of years ago? I seem to remember the word "anodyne" being used as part of your vocabulary ;)

Basically, since AVI gave up making REAL hi-fi equipment (i.e. separates and proper sized speakers), they've abandoned any notion of producing equipment which qualifies being labelled as high fidelity!

Marco.

P.S Sorry, Alfie!

:lolsign: No worries Marco, I'm used to it now! ;) I'll just enjoy mine quietly! :sofa:

jandl100
05-04-2010, 15:03
:lolsign: No worries Marco, I'm used to it now! ;) I'll just enjoy mine quietly! :sofa:

Oops - sorry Alfie :o

Nice speakers. No, really, I love them. :whistle:

:lol:

DSJR
05-04-2010, 17:28
:nocomment: :D

jandl100
05-04-2010, 18:26
Well, let's look at it positively.
No matter what Alfie changes his ADM9's for, it'll be an upgrade! :eyebrows:

.... OK, OK; enough already! :peace:

Actually, an ADM9 fan of my acquaintance has just changed to the 9.1 with an AVI sub, and is most pleased indeed.

alfie2902
05-04-2010, 19:31
:lolsign: Jerry, No worries mate ;)

I know they're not everyones cup of tea, & that some of the claims about them are a little over the top, but flawed? It would be no fun at all if we all liked & owned the same kit!

They do work me very well in my 2nd system, but I did pick them up for very little money! Upgrading to 9.1s isn't an option though as they only have 1 sub out! where my early 9s work well as 2+2 :eyebrows:

Cheers, alfie

P.S. Jerry you just might need your ears testing :ner::lolsign:

jandl100
09-04-2010, 07:13
Whoa! :eek:

AVI kit is like rabbits ... how did this happen? :scratch:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/AVIampcdp.jpg


:eyebrows:

Arrived yesterday. Very very nice indeed .... but is the onboard DAC quite up to my Theta? ..... a fair bit of listening and component/cable juggling and a combined review of amp & cdp will follow. :)

Marco
17-04-2010, 11:17
Interesting, Jerry! Like I said before, that stuff is from when AVI used to make proper hi-fi equipment ;)

I've always loved the "Laboratory Series" moniker, though.... As if somehow the illusion of 'laboratory testing' added kudos to the design! :eyebrows:

Marco.

alfie2902
08-05-2010, 23:38
Come on Jerry, let us know how you're getting on with the MBLs? :eyebrows:

jandl100
09-05-2010, 07:08
Come on Jerry, let us know how you're getting on with the MBLs? :eyebrows:

MBLs?

What MBLs? :scratch:

Oh - these MBLs! :lol:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/MBL2.jpg

Ah well, I only got 'em last Wednesday, and they are said to need 100 hours of running in.

They seem satisfactory so far. I might go as far as to say that they are rather good. Decent vfm, as it were.

They do seem to need running in, though.
Each speaker has two 8.5 inch woofers and the phrase "tight as a duck's arse" immediately sprang to mind with the bass ... really needed to loosen up - which they are now doing. I guess I've got less than 20 hours on them so far, but the bass is loosening and starting to bloom, and the 4 sets of drive units (2 cone woofers, 2 5.5 inch cone lower mids, 1 Radialstrahler upper mid and 1 Radialstrahler tweeter) are getting noticeably more coherent ... the sound is jelling into a unified whole.

3D imaging was startlingly good to begin with, and is getting better. Detail/rez was also fab, and is now beginning to settle into a more relaxed and unified presentation.

They are on 30 day trial from Audio Emotion ... but I rather suspect that they are keepers.

Many thanks to my wife,:cheers: who suggested I buy them in the first place. ... they are way beyond my normal hifi budget!

Currently driving them with my 300wpc (4 ohms) AVI Lab Series integrated, which is doing a fine job with these allegedly difficult speakers .... but I must admit that they do seem to be crying out for valve sound - I'd bet that would be a great combo .... I have my eye on something that may be suitable. :eyebrows:

Macca
09-05-2010, 09:45
Just read a review - fascinating speakers, proper 'Hi end'.

You going to be selling your Infinity then Jerry (he hinted) or have they already gone?

DSJR
09-05-2010, 10:11
I see you haven't told us here about your blown Theta Jerry...

jandl100
09-05-2010, 17:45
You going to be selling your Infinity then Jerry (he hinted) or have they already gone?

I've still got them, and I'll be selling once I've decided that the MBLs are here to stay.

You want first dibs? ;)

jandl100
09-05-2010, 17:48
I see you haven't told us here about your blown Theta Jerry...

Ah. Yes. I managed to hotwire my Theta DAC's digital input socket to the positive pole of my high-current AVI amp's speaker output. Fireworks! :doh::(

It's now been looked at by Chevron Audio (at Guy Sergeant's suggestion) and they have declared it beyond repair.

Bugger.

The Vinyl Adventure
09-05-2010, 17:54
How did you manage to do that?

jandl100
09-05-2010, 18:07
How did you manage to do that?

The Theta DAC was entirely disconnected, except for a digital signal input lead, the other end of which happened to fall against the amp's speaker output sockets.

It was quite a spectacular display of sparks from the DAC, followed by a pall of smoke.

I was not a happy bunny.

horace
10-05-2010, 12:31
Jerry's got some new kit?

Nah, I don't believe it ;)

Why don't you give him his own subforum?

Yeah, the 'What's Jerry bought today?' forum would keep this place ticking over quite nicely I reckon.

Got to be worth at least a sticky - the man's a legend!

Glad to see you are still having fun Jerry. I promise I'll let you have your preamp back soon.

Cheers

:)

Martin

jandl100
10-05-2010, 12:54
Hi Martin :wave:

Hmmm ... yeah ... well ....

If I keep the MiBbLes, as seems quite likely, then my speaker box-swapping days are over for the next several years.
I don't see myself turning away from the Techie 1210 tt either.
This is getting a bit worrying. :scratch:

Of course, there's still CDPs and DACs and cartridges and phonostages and amps and cables to play with ... :carrot:

horace
10-05-2010, 13:13
Hi Martin :wave:



If I keep the MiBbLes, as seems quite likely, then my speaker box-swapping days are over for the next several years.
I don't see myself turning away from the Techie 1210 tt either.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Tell me another, you're on a roll!
:)

jandl100
10-05-2010, 13:38
Nope. Straight up - that's the deal from swmbo with the MBL speakers.

There's some details here about the speakers if you're interested. http://www.mbl-usa.com/View.aspx/2103/mbl-116-Elegance

horace
10-05-2010, 14:03
Nope. Straight up - that's the deal from swmbo with the MBL speakers.

There's some details here about the speakers if you're interested. http://www.mbl-usa.com/View.aspx/2103/mbl-116-Elegance


I can't believe it - Jerry hanging up his speaker cables for the last time.

I feel a strange sense of emptiness.

This could be a tough time for you - are there patches or gum available to deal with the cravings?

Very nice speakers BTW.....

But not as nice as those ones over there.......

or those ones.....

or....

Best of luck - you can always rely on your fellow forum members to say 'I told you so' (ahem, I mean provide sympathy and moral support) should you fall off the wagon.

(Cue dramatic music, as the camera closes in on Jerry as he walks slowly towards the sunset and eventually disappears into the distance).....and roll closing credits.

:)

Martin

I still don't believe you!

jandl100
10-05-2010, 14:33
Just the speaker box-swapping has come to the end if I keep the MBLs ... the rest will continue. :)

.... if the MBLs aren't pretty much perfect for me, which they will have to be at the price, then they will be going back to the dealer. They are on 30 day trial.

It's not financially viable for me to sell 'em as the drop from the price I paid for the new MBLs will be prohibitive until quite a few years of depreciation have passed. That's the 'price' I pay for getting them in the first place.

& tbh, I've kept the Infinity RS2.5 speakers well over 7 months with ne'er a thought of selling them until swmbo decreed I could get my MBL Dream Speakers.

I've got my eye on a nice valve power amp to try with them :stalks: ... so the box swapping continues, never fear!

twelvebears
10-05-2010, 19:18
Nope. Straight up - that's the deal from swmbo with the MBL speakers.

There's some details here about the speakers if you're interested. http://www.mbl-usa.com/View.aspx/2103/mbl-116-Elegance

Yeah that was pretty much what Susy said when the WBs arrived... "can you please try and stick with these ones for a while?"

Macca
15-05-2010, 10:47
I've still got them, and I'll be selling once I've decided that the MBLs are here to stay.

You want first dibs? ;)

Sorry for the delay Jerry, not around here much in the week.

Yes I am interested - but collection will be a little tricky so cannot be definite but if you want to sell PM me with a price and I will get back to you.

jandl100
05-08-2010, 07:31
The battle of the amps! :eek:

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/DSCF5819.jpg

On the lower shelf, the reigning champion - a Graaf 5050, aka Steffi!
- 50wpc of 6550 Svetlana Winged-C power with some very nice NOS Amperex input toobs.

On the upper shelf, the new contender - a vintage Yamaha PC2002M. The pro version of the highly respected M2 audiophile amp.
- 240wpc of solid state might, that doubles its power into 4 ohms, and pretty much again into 2 ohms. A veritable Krell of an amp!

What a different set of presentations! .... Steffi is a rich, full bodied red wine. The Yammie is a pure and scintillating white.
Which is better? :scratch: Silly question - quite meaningless!
Which do I prefer? Well, it depends ....
Which is more correct? Impossible to say. But I suspect the Yammie is the more accurate. Who knows? Not me.
Do I enjoy both? Yes! :cool:

There's no doubt of the extra power on tap with the Yamaha. Big Stuff gets conveyed with an effortless ease and unlimited dynamic sweep that is pretty damn awesome. A tad more detail from the Yammie, too - swmbo picked up on that straight away.

Steffi fights back with a tonal richness and opulence, and somehow a sense of grandeur that eludes the Yammie that is not unconnected, I feel, to a fullsome but well controlled bottom-end. Luvverly. :eek:

The Yammie cost me £225 plus postage on eBay. :doh: Just stupidly good for the money.

Ali Tait
05-08-2010, 08:43
Cor that looks nice Jerry! Baggsy first dibs if/when you sell it! :)

MartinT
05-08-2010, 16:37
Mmm, that Yammie looks very nice indeed, my kind of amp :)

jandl100
14-08-2010, 10:19
Well, the Yammie PC2002M has now been sold ... sorry, Ali, someone beat you to the request for 1st dibs. :( .... I had 3 requests for 1st dibs within an hour or so of posting about the amp! :lol:

That was a really nice amp - loads of power and control and a really exciting presentation. Huge fun .... and those meters! Luvverly.

I enjoyed it so much I decided to have a go with another Yammie amp .....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/YamahaM452.jpg

A M45 power amp ... 125wpc ... with fancy flashing red power meters. :eyebrows: Not everyone's aesthetic cup of char, but I like it! And you can turn the display off to give a nicely boring plain black fascia. :)

Blimey, this is a good'un, too. :eek:

It doesn't quite have the balls-out uber-control and dynamism of the 240wpc PC2002M.
But it does have a front panel button and associated little square red light labelled "class A". This turns a typical piece of mid-price Jap Crap (decent enough, but not that special) into a genuine high end transparent and delicately nuanced 60-watter. It sounds gob-smackingly good - 3D palpable imaging, uber-transparent, finely detailed (but not etched .... well, OK, just a bit ;)) and bass whoomph and control that are definitely grin-inducing. Curiously, the bass is better in "class A" than in class A/B.
No, I suspect it's not real class A - it doesn't get warm enough for that. But whatever it does, it is very special indeed.
£207 on eBay plus delivery for genuine top-end sound. Blimey - wot a bar-gin!

:carrot:

DSJR
14-08-2010, 22:51
I bet you'll find that Yammie is mostly class A with humungous heatsinks preventing the thing from going out of thermal control..

As for the bigger yam, the QMI Gaincell did similar things and I've NEVER heard passive 'briks sound so good as with one of them driving them. B&W 801's stood up and took notice too and the little overload lights on the original KEF 105's never went out!

jandl100
15-08-2010, 11:16
I bet you'll find that Yammie is mostly class A with humungous heatsinks preventing the thing from going out of thermal control..


Could be, Dave. It is quite hefty.

Must admit that I don't usually go for solid state class A. I usually find them a bit soft and too forgiving (Krell KSA50, Sugden, Electrocompaniet etc).

But this Yammie M45 continues to hit the spot, chez Jerry, driving my MBLs with precision and passion. :eek:

.... Having said that, I have just now won an eBay auction for a Classe 70 power amp :doh::eyebrows:

jandl100
19-08-2010, 06:58
The latest step in Jerry's hifi jourmey ...

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Classe70innards.jpg

A Classe Audio Seventy power amp.
75wpc into 8 ohms and 150wpc into 4. So a nicely stiff power supply - and it drives the MBLs with aplomb.

I popped the lid off to change from XLR to RCA input - 4 nicely made jumpers needed to be shifted by 1 notch - so I thought a nudy pic would be nice!

No, it hasn't supplanted the Yamaha M45 in my affections, that still is an amazingly fine sound. Astonishingly so, for what it is - mid-price JapCrap.
But the Classe is bloody good - a "subtle powerhouse" may be the 2-word-review. I've had it for a couple of days now and it has passed the "do I sell it straight on" test with ease.

My MBLs are not the easiest load for an amp to drive - a pair of DPA Enlightenmant amps were more about subtle detail & openness and couldn't really manage to get a grip on what is a 4-way, complex x-over, low efficiency speaker - but this little Canadian beast has the drive and sheer gusto to do them justice without being reduced to harshness or glare.

Very nice indeedy. :)

Flyfisher
25-08-2010, 07:19
On Monday night I visited Jerry Towers as he very kindly offered me a short term loan of his Ali bodied DL103 cart, so I naturally heard his system.

Now I have been to Jerry Towers before, but many years ago, and I know that Jerry is a compulsive box shifter so my opening line was

"Well Jerry this looks great, how does it sound..... and how long will you keep it"

"What happens if you ever get your hands on something that great, would you just move it on because that it what you do?"

Sit down Roger and listen to my new speakers, I bought these new and they are staying, at which point I nearly keeled over!!

The MBLs were amazing, the sound stage huge, the musical detail, and even though we were not sitting too far away from them you felt the music all around you and if you closed your eyes the speaker disappeared. The big Yamaha amp drove the speakers very well.

Jerry is a SS devote and I am for valves so will differ there, but he most definately has a very good system, and I will follow Jerry from time to time to make sure that he really does keep those speakers, but somehow I think he really will.:eek:

jandl100
25-08-2010, 08:02
Thanks Roger - it was very nice to see you again :) - yes, the MBLs are keepers.

The Yamaha amp doesn't do at all bad, does it?! :scratch: :carrot:

And thanks for returning the 103 - I'm glad you liked it - & I'm sure the 103SA is substantially better again!

jandl100
27-08-2010, 08:02
As some folks here might have seen in the Classifieds section, I've ditched my trusty old Techie 1210 as the joys of vinyl have once again worn rather thin for me. :(

But, fear not, Monte-Tom, Marco and others ... I'm not going to be entirely without the wonders of vinyl.

Just picked up this leetle tt. Somewhat down-priced from my old Techie 1210 - and I can't play it yet, as my new (down-priced) phonostage hasn't arrived (hopefully today).

Quite pretty innit. Obviously a Techie knock-off! :eyebrows:

Denon 103 cart all mounted and ready to go ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/NumarkPro-TT1.jpg

The Grand Plan for this is that it will allow me to play and perhaps slowly expand my collection of Gilbert & Sullivan LPs and will allow me to keep a few very special LPs from my collection - the rest will be sold off or donated to charity shops as appropriate.

Hopefully, retaining a minimal vinyl capability will remind me how frustrating as a music playback medium it is for me and hence will stop me from investing bigger-£££ in the future! I really do need to break out of this buy-sell-buy-sell vinyl feedback loop I have been in for the last few years. It doesn't make sense - even an earthworm learns from experience - but not me! :mental:

MartinT
27-08-2010, 08:15
That is so obviously a knock-off that I'm surprised Technics haven't sued.

Jerry - you just haven't heard vinyl done right yet, otherwise you wouldn't be having these doubts :)

jandl100
27-08-2010, 08:39
That is so obviously a knock-off that I'm surprised Technics haven't sued.

:lol:


Jerry - you just haven't heard vinyl done right yet, otherwise you wouldn't be having these doubts :)

Well, some folks might not think that a Voyd Point 5, SME V, Dynavector DVXX1L was too shoddy! ;)

Been there, done that, love CD! :lolsign:

Techno Commander
27-08-2010, 11:48
IIRC the Numark has a greater range of pitch control then the Techie does.

Probably of little use in a HiFi scenario, but on this occaison, the TT was designed for club use.

DSJR
27-08-2010, 14:04
Any chance of some pics of the motor unit minus platter?


"Jerry - you just haven't heard vinyl done right yet, otherwise you wouldn't be having these doubts
__________________
-MartinT"

Martin, you just haven't compared CD with the master file/recording, otherwise you wouldn't be having the thoughts above :D

All good fun innit :gig:

MartinT
27-08-2010, 14:14
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like CD too ;)

jandl100
27-08-2010, 17:46
IIRC the Numark has a greater range of pitch control then the Techie does.

Probably of little use in a HiFi scenario, but on this occaison, the TT was designed for club use.

Yup, unlike the Techie 1200/1210 which was a hifi unit adopted by the DJ community, I believe - the Numark is sold purely as a DJ item. It also has a button which reverses the direction of the platter - very handy! :lol:

My phonostage did indeed arrive today - had about a 3 minute listen before I had to go out this afternoon .... :scratch: .... err, it all sounded bloody good!
More reports later once I've got a few hours on it.

I suspect I may have chanced upon the ultimate bargain phonostage, too. £39 + P&P !! :eek: Once again, more later.

jandl100
30-08-2010, 07:18
Once again, more later.

... and here I am a few days on ... & listening to LPs again. :)

The Numark Pro TT1 continues to defy expectations.
No, I don't have a direct comparison with my old Techie 1210, but it sounds damn similar to me. Do I feel I am missing out? - nope.

Just to clarify, the new bits in the TT rig are the Numark tt and the phonostage. My old Denon 103 cart and Partridge transformers are still in situ.

Just cos it's so pretty, here's another pic of the Numark ...

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/NumarkTT12.jpg

Note the neat display window showing speed, pitch and a kool segmented ellipsoid thingy which rotates when the platter is doing its spinny-thing. :eyebrows: Beat that, Techie-owners! :lol:

Speed constancy? Dead-on - even on sustained piano chords - the ultimate test!

And the cheapo phonostage? ....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/Phonostage.jpg

Moving magnet only, so my Partridge transformers are def needed for the Denon 103.
I was browsing good ol' eBay looking for a cheapo replacement for my luvverly Loricraft phonostage when I came across this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130419934696&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT.

"This is not your cheap and cheerful preamp, it's a high quality analogue preamp using a professionally made PCB, laid out to maximise audio performance and coupled with quality components throughout.
The preamp has been designed for quality hifi systems ... "

Ah, thought I, that sounds more promising than the cheapo junk that you normally see selling for a few tens of £. Money back offer, too, so why not.

It's a really fine piece of kit. It can run off a 9V battery or a wallwart PSU (not supplied). I started off with a 9V battery - lasted about 10 hours before what sounded for all the world like cartridge mis-tracking set in - which of course I thought it was. So much frustrating fiddling with the cartridge alignment etc later (without success) I realised that the red light on the front of the phonostage seemed a bit dimmer than before .... :doh: the battery!
So I dug out a 0.5A / 9V PSU that was lying around and plugged that in - hey presto - no more mis-tracking! :rolleyes::mental:
And it still sounds fine.
So here we have a very decent sounding mm phonostage for £39 plus P&P. Whodathunkit? :scratch::eek:
I've owned the £15 'bargain' phonostages - let's just say that you get decent vfm. This little baby FAR exceeds that humble standard. I've also owned the CA 640P and I'd say that my 'stage easily beats that - no greyed out tonality and flattened perspectives here, it sounds far better than that. I'd say it is on a par with a Musical Fidelity XLP V3, although a bit more vibrant than that.
Strongly recommended. (But remember it's only moving magnet.)

I've also now ordered a decent 5A PSU to try with it - I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't take it up a further notch.

The ultimate test is that several days on Jerry is still happily spinning his vinyl again with a much down-sized (in price terms) tt rig. £39 for the used Numark tt and £45.50 (with P&P) for the brand new phonostage. Damned fine! :)

StanleyB
30-08-2010, 08:58
I used to sell a lovely MC/MM phono preamp for about £50. It was a poor seller for me, but Revolver has been doing good sales with it after they hiked the price from my £50 to £180. So the extra £130 in price increase seems to have improved its credibility :mental:.