Battle of DACs (in my head)

[feelfreetoblameme]

I haven't really come back to this forum since I joined up a few weeks ago since I was waiting to get some kind of audio equipment as I was starting basically from scratch after selling my old mini-system. I just acquired a pair of powered speakers (Audioengine A5s (http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-5)) and I have to admit that my neophyte ears have been blown away. These speakers are hooked up to an old Marantz CD player and an Airport Express and I have to admit the sound has been pretty damn awesome. But I don't think I'm done yet. I want to have a system that can last me for quite some time without the upgrade bug biting. And a stand-alone DAC seems to be the perfect addition to make this particular setup last me for some time.

And that's where the problems begin. I've looked at and read about (and in a couple of local stores, listened to) a lot of DACs. The Rega DAC that I listened to probably sounded the best although the Cambridge DAC Magic wasn't that far behind. But the two DACs that I'm currently debating about buying, purely based on reading about them online, are the new Beresford Caiman SEG (http://www.beresford-dac.com/products/1-beresford-tc-7520/47-beresford-tc-7520-seg-caiman) and the Matrix Mini-i (http://tamaudio.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=55). The Beresford is of course very popular around these parts and I had some pleasant interaction with Stanley over email. I've heard nothing but good things about his service and his products. The same can pretty much be said of the Matrix Mini-i as well. The prices on both these DACs are fairly comparable as well. There are minor differences between the DACs feature sets and looks of course, and I'm guessing this is where the decision-making will happen.

The Beresford Caiman has a Wolfson DAC chip while the Matrix offers two "balanced" AD1955 chips. The Matrix has a higher sampling rate (24bit/192 vs 24bit/96) on it's optical and coaxial inputs though I think that will hardly make much of a difference. In usability terms, the Beresford has more inputs available while the Matrix comes with a remote (which costs $30). I've read on other forums that the Matrix has a very tube-like, musicality to its sound and my guess from reading about the Beresford is that it's more detail-oriented/neutral sounding.

I'm pretty sure I'll be happy with either of these DACs, and the Beresford is currently on sale ($324) with a 30-day money back guarantee. The Matrix isn't much more in cost ($340 with remote) and the seller that I've been looking at seems reputable. So my question I suppose into the forum ether is: does anyone have experience comparing these DACs to each other? What would you guys, much more knowledgeable about such matters, recommend?

Thanks!

[nat8808]

One thing to note is that the Beresford will be being bought direct from Stanley (is that still correct?) and the Matrix through a dealer (is that right too?) so you may find the quality of components is higher or features are higher in the Beresford purely on the basis that there's no middleman to pay.

It is a guess though and I've not heard a modern dac to help other than that!

[StanleyB]

There are a lot of attractively priced and well specced DACs out there. Where the Caiman, and its stall mates, differ is in the upgrade department. Most other DACs just can't be upgraded, and those that can have to be sent off for the work to be done at a high cost. Manufacturers in general prefer that you buy their latest model, instead of upgrading your existing one.

The other point to consider is the availability of a pool of owners for advise etc.

[Yoga]

I've had both, and would agree that if you want to upgrade/tweak yourself, go with the Caiman (SEG). If you'd like a set-and-forget DAC, the Mini-I is fantastic value also :¬)

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-accessories/matrix-mini-i-dac-977524/review

http://www.headphonista.com/matrix-mini-i/

http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-mini-i-balanced-dac/

You'll be happy with either :¬)

[DSJR]

The Gator-Caiman is very good indeed, judging by Alex_UK's one, but as the Rega DAC is better than the Saturn we compared the Gator to, it may well be the next step forward as things currently lie. It's unlikely the Rega would need any upgrades either - your choice, as the Rega does cost more in the UK.

Having said that, what we need is a not too expensive DAC preamp with multiple digital AND analogue inputs and with a remote volume control at least, if not full remote input switching. Since the Gator appears to offer a decent low impedance source to per amps, near or remote, as in your speakers, this will be the best option possibly right now... :)

[Millzee60]

I may be posting out of turn here but another advantage of the Beresford is that if you speak to Stan before buying about the type of sound you're looking for he can make adjustments before shipping.

[Werner Berghofer]

Ahmad,


What would you guys, much more knowledgeable about such matters, recommend?

nobody has heard it yet, and until now there are no reviews available, but the Schiit Bifrost DAC (http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7) looks very promising and interesting. Currently it is in pre-order, shipment is expected to begin on the end of August.

I own a headphone amplifier from Schiit Audio. Build quality, design, visual appearance and sound of their headphone amplifiers are excellent, and I’m pretty this also can be said about their DACs. If my budget allows it, I shall purchase a Bifrost DAC later this year, and I’m curious how this will compare to the three Beresford Caiman DACs I use in my home.

Werner.

[roob]

The Bifrost certainly looks good on paper and well priced, it will be interesting to see how it performs.

[sq225917]

There's some serious old school design cred from the guys at Schitt as well, ex Sumo and Theta designers. I look forward to that giving the Young a run for its money later in the year.

[feelfreetoblameme]

Thanks for all the responses, guys, the help is much appreciated! In reverse order, then:


nobody has heard it yet, and until now there are no reviews available, but the Schiit Bifrost DAC looks very promising and interesting. Currently it is in pre-order, shipment is expected to begin on the end of August.

I did look at the Bifrost, Werner et al, and although very pretty, it did cost a little bit more to upgrade to the USB version than either the Beresford or Matrix Mini-I. I'm sure it will be good since I've heard good things about Schiit's headphone amps.


I may be posting out of turn here but another advantage of the Beresford is that if you speak to Stan before buying about the type of sound you're looking for he can make adjustments before shipping.
16-07-2011 06:42 AM

I'll look into that although I think I'm not terribly picky about the sound. Detail vs warmth is a debate but I think both DACs that I'm considering will give me good sound out of the box. Plus I doubt I know enough at this stage to think of what changes to ask Stanley to make.


The Gator-Caiman is very good indeed, judging by Alex_UK's one, but as the Rega DAC is better than the Saturn we compared the Gator to, it may well be the next step forward as things currently lie. It's unlikely the Rega would need any upgrades either - your choice, as the Rega does cost more in the UK.


The Rega is I believe even more expensive in the US. I loved it's warm sound and bigger soundstage (at least in comparison to the Dac Magic) but my bank account probably can't handle it.


There are a lot of attractively priced and well specced DACs out there. Where the Caiman, and its stall mates, differ is in the upgrade department. Most other DACs just can't be upgraded, and those that can have to be sent off for the work to be done at a high cost. Manufacturers in general prefer that you buy their latest model, instead of upgrading your existing one.

Definitely a good point, Stanley, and something I've been thinking about. But I also again wonder about my knowledge/expertise in the electronics tinkering department. I have heard of Mini-I upgrades being done as well although they looked much more daunting than Beresford upgrades.


One thing to note is that the Beresford will be being bought direct from Stanley (is that still correct?) and the Matrix through a dealer (is that right too?) so you may find the quality of components is higher or features are higher in the Beresford purely on the basis that there's no middleman to pay.

Although I chatted with Stanley about buying direct from him, currently the US website (which I'm sure is affiliated with him) is selling it for about the same cost and in case of problems it would be nice to ship cheaply in the US instead of to the UK. Plus they have a 30-day money back guarantee, although I'm sure if someone was really unhappy with a Beresford, Stanley himself would take a return too.

Well, I'm still debating, and as Yoga said, I'd probably be happy with either one. I'll let everyone know once I've made a decision and what my impressions are. Thanks again!:)

[roob]

Is the Teac Dac available in the States?
http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/digital-analogue-convertors/teac-ud-h01-reference-asynchronous-usb-upsampling-dac.html

[feelfreetoblameme]

Is the Teac Dac available in the States?
http://www.custom-cable.co.uk/digital-analogue-convertors/teac-ud-h01-reference-asynchronous-usb-upsampling-dac.html

I'm unsure on that point. I saw that on another post on here and was curious about it. I haven't read any impressions of its sound. TEAC does have this other line they sell in the US called Esoteric but I think those are much pricier. http://esoteric.teac.com/dacs/

[feelfreetoblameme]

I've had both, and would agree that if you want to upgrade/tweak yourself, go with the Caiman (SEG). If you'd like a set-and-forget DAC, the Mini-I is fantastic value also :¬)

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/hi-fi-accessories/matrix-mini-i-dac-977524/review

http://www.headphonista.com/matrix-mini-i/

http://www.headfonia.com/matrix-mini-i-balanced-dac/

You'll be happy with either :¬)

I did have a quick question for you, Yoga, as you've had experience with both DACs. What would you say are the biggest differences in sound between these two?