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View Full Version : It's official - AOS featured in Dec 08 issue of Hi-fi World



Marco
18-10-2008, 19:14
Guys,

Following a meeting today with the magazine's editor David Price, I can confirm that the forum will be featured in the December issue of Hi-fi World, which is out on sale on 31st October 08 so make sure you all buy a copy!! :)

The article will be in the 'News' section at the beginning of the magazine and will feature an introduction to the forum by me and a screen shot of the homepage together with a link to our site. This will expose the forum to a much wider audience just in time for the busy festive season.

So on behalf of everyone on AOS I would like thank David - who's a top bloke - and Hi-fi World for supporting what we're trying to achieve and giving us such a wonderful promotional opportunity.

Marco.

snapper
18-10-2008, 19:24
:champagne: :glug:


Nice one,Marco.

Seems like a productive day.

Neil McCauley
18-10-2008, 19:35
Guys,

Following a meeting today with the magazine's editor David Price, I can confirm that the forum will be featured in the December issue of Hi-fi World, which is out on sale on 31st October 08 so make sure you all buy a copy!! :)

The article will be in the 'News' section at the beginning of the magazine and will feature an introduction to the forum by me and a screen shot of the homepage together with a link to our site. This will expose the forum to a much wider audience just in time for the busy festive season.

So on behalf of everyone on AOS I would like thank David - who's a top bloke - and Hi-fi World for supporting what we're trying to achieve and giving us such a wonderful promotional opportunity.

Marco.

Congratulations Marco. Priceless lives up to his name once again - and good for him too.

---//---

Marco
18-10-2008, 20:23
Thanks guys. David couldn't have been more helpful - we had a really good chat about many things. He really likes AOS and appreciates what we're trying to achieve. Howard, I of course have no idea who you're referring to! ;)

We have many more similar plans in the pipeline to promote the forum so stay tuned - we're slowly but surely building something special and nothing will stop us reaching for the stars!

With your support AOS will continue to become bigger and better than ever :mex:

Marco.

leo
18-10-2008, 20:39
Thats great news, well done Marco:smoking:

Mike
19-10-2008, 00:37
the forum will be featured in the December issue of Hi-fi World, which is out on sale on 31st October 08 so make sure you all buy a copy!! :)

I've not missed a copy for several years now, so that's a 'given'.

Still interesting though, how did that come about if I may ask? :)

I've been a bit of a fan of Noel Keywood, David price, Adam Smith etc for many years and have a particular fondness for the work of Peter Comeau. Best magazine out there IMHO.

Cheers...

John
19-10-2008, 05:54
Good work and a great Magazine its the only one I really purchase these days as I always feel like I learn from reading it and I got two pieces of my kit on the recommendation of HIFI world which I am very happy with (of course I heard the equipment first before purchase)!!!

Marco
19-10-2008, 07:04
Still interesting though, how did that come about if I may ask? :)


John, thanks for your comments. HFW has been my favourite magazine for some time, quite simply because it provides a good balance between new hi-fi and classics. I also like the style of writing, which comes across to me as more genuine than on other magazines.

Mikey, it was part of my on-going development plans for AOS. I had David's number before from discussing the KAB 1210 so I contacted him and suggested the idea. He'd already seen the forum and really liked it so he gave me his full support for doing the article. He then joined the forum shortly afterwards.

In these troubled financial times David is very focussed on helping keeping enthusiasts interested in hi-fi, and good dealers in business, and considers AOS an ideal forum to help the interests of both.

This could provide some interesting spin-offs, so we'll see what happens. I have plenty more plans to develop the forum which will come to fruition in due course :)

Marco.

Togil
19-10-2008, 07:35
How exactly is AOS keeping good dealers in business when this is the one forum where members are encouraged to buy secondhand modified kit ?

David Price's (fairly rave) review of the Chord DAC QBD76 at £ 3,000 wouldn't find much support here !

Marco
19-10-2008, 10:28
Hans, we encourage what we think works - it's as simple as that, and there are many currently available affordable products from dealers which offer excellent sound-per-pound value, as well those available elsewhere by going the second-hand modified route. There is no 'one size fits all' ethos on AOS.

No congratulations then from you for the excellent publicity we've achieved for the forum?

Marco.

Marco
19-10-2008, 10:59
Oh, and this:


David Price's (fairly rave) review of the Chord DAC QBD76 at £ 3,000 wouldn't find much support here !

doesn't quite tally with the reaction to Martin's superb high-end system (including Chord amp) here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=988 ;)

Marco.

Togil
19-10-2008, 11:09
Yes of course AOS has done very well and it's one of only 2 hifi forums that are worth looking at imo; if we can get some Hifi World reviewers on board that would be great !

Marco
19-10-2008, 11:12
Thanks, Hans. Well DP has already joined and Adam Smith will be along shortly, although he has recently left the magazine. What's the other forum worth looking at then in your opinion? ;)

Marco.

Togil
19-10-2008, 11:26
HiFi Critic's own forum

If you filter out the slight Naim bias there are some great contributions there

Prince of Darkness
19-10-2008, 11:27
How exactly is AOS keeping good dealers in business when this is the one forum where members are encouraged to buy secondhand modified kit ?



Not the only one!:)

http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php

Marco
19-10-2008, 11:35
HiFi Critic's own forum

If you filter out the slight Naim bias there are some great contributions there

Yes I've looked and I would agree. I've joined the forum but so far I've only had time to post once. I must have a word with the chaps there and see if they would like our support and to be featured in our Links Box. Is it starting to grow nicely now? I certainly hope it succeeds as potentially it has much to offer.

Marco.

muffinman
19-10-2008, 19:47
S/H is a perfect way into hifi.
there are enough bargains about to get the bug - rather than spunking a wedge on bunch of so called '5 star' electronics. imo, it does'nt matter how people get into hifi, just that they do

:gig:

David Price
19-10-2008, 23:44
Thanks guys... we're always happy to support worthy ventures such as this! Just wanted to say all of us at Hi-Fi World had a great Manchester show (which is where I met Marco); lots of fine kit; here's hoping everyone here attends shows if they possibly can; the good ones are actually quite uplifting!

Marco and I were saying that good, often tweaked second-hand stuff is a great way in to audiophile performance on a tight budget, but we also agreed that there's some great new stuff too - so much as I love classic hi-fi I certainly wouldn't want to give the impression that new stuff isn't worth bothering with. Depends on what precisely you're after - and how much fiddling (sorry, I mean 'setting up') you're willing to do.

Some want 'plug and play', others are happy spending six months rebuilding something before they ever hear it. Having spent so much of my life in the latter camp, I am beginning to find 'plug and play' solutions far more appealing. Indeed, I've just bought myself an Arcam Solo Mini for my bedroom and am in love with its simplicity and accessible sound. (Guess I've just destroyed any vestiges of cred I may have had...)

Just for the record, right now my system currently comprises a 1978 Sony TT-S8000 turntable, 2008 Origin Live Silver tonearm, 2008 Ortofon Winfield cartridge, 2008 Icon Audio PS3, 2007 Sugden IA4 amp and 1979 Yamaha NS1000M loudspeakers - so a bit of a mix. It sounds great, but with depressing predictability, I know there's more in there hiding!

Still in love with my modded Technics SL1200 (which has despatched a number of very pricey new decks) by the way, and hoping to do the KAB PSU mod soon. Also, I've got an Audiocom modded Sony CDP-X55ES arriving any week now (and a forthcoming feature in the mag). If it's anything like the cheaper X33 Mark did, it should be stunning...

Steady on Howard; Marco told me this site wasn't about personality politics, unlike certain others I could mention, allegedly! So good wishes to all on AOS from all at HFW, I'm sure.

Yours, in the spirit of fraternité,

David

Togil
20-10-2008, 07:28
It would be great to compare the Audiocom-modified player with the new (seemingly very good value) Sony 5400 CD/SACD player

Neil McCauley
20-10-2008, 07:55
Steady on Howard; Marco told me this site wasn't about personality politics, unlike certain others I could mention, allegedly!
David
Quite correct David. Yes, what Marco said is true. And in the light of this, I was somewhat out of order re my sideways comments re you know who. Gentlemen - there will not be repetition of this on my part. Promise!

Sincerely

H


---//---

Steve Toy
20-10-2008, 10:03
When people self-moderate it means the ethos works. :) The idea of an ethos as opposed to a set of rules, (i.e. an Accepted User Policy) is that people embrace the former whilst they only (sometimes begrudgingly) obey the latter.

Many thanks David for the endorsement of AOS. We wanted to create a forum that was perhaps different in that it was a creative, constructive, open-minded and friendly sort of place existing to support hi-fi both as a hobby and an industry that was devoid of circular arguments and slanging matches. I'm happy that it is actually turning out that way and is being recognised as such.

Whilst much in hi-fi has made little progress in terms of fidelity (despite the claims often made to the contrary in the industry and some of the magazines) there is genuine advancement in some areas, notably in digital front ends and with computer audio. We also believe that setup and careful selection and implementation of ancilliaries is the key to assembling a system that is truly musically satisfying at all price points. Discussions here are essentially about how we go about this and what results we can expect rather than whether it will make a difference at all.

Marco
20-10-2008, 10:12
Quite correct David. Yes, what Marco said is true. And in the light of this, I was somewhat out of order re my sideways comments re you know who. Gentlemen - there will not be repetition of this on my part. Promise!


No worries, Howard. Thanks for that. I'm sure you realise that whatever 'history' there is between Noel and you has no relevance here.

Hans,

Having an Audiocom-modified Sony myself I'm very much looking forward to David's review. Knowing how good Mark's mods are I think David will be in for a bit of a shock - perhaps even more than what he's expecting! ;)

Marco.

sastusbulbas
20-10-2008, 18:27
Whilst much in hi-fi has made little progress in terms of fidelity (despite the claims often made to the contrary in the industry and some of the magazines) there is genuine advancement in some areas, notably in digital front ends and with computer audio. We also believe that setup and careful selection and implementation of ancilliaries is the key to assembling a system that is truly musically satisfying at all price points. Discussions here are essentially about how we go about this and what results we can expect rather than whether it will make a difference at all.


Personally I don't agree with this, sure we have some kit that sounds impressive, but most is usually just different, and much of the kit is just overpriced.
Most of this up-sampling/oversampling, 192 and 24 bit stuff gained it's credibility due not to being better but just being different. With loads of hype and such.
A step forward no, initially it was more of a sidestep, and due to maturity now people are starting to make headway with it.

As for computers, have they got better or just more popular hence acceptable and now with a bit of kudos?
I don't think there has been much advance apart from hype and expectation. Many years ago people were being told to switch off computers and fridges due to detrimental affects on audio systems, computers have not developed for audio with bespoke PSU's, Motherboards, OS's and codecs, these problems are still viable today but often excused or overlooked due to it now being fashionable to have a computer, as internet hype now states it as better than something else.

When HiFi World starts again with computer audio and someone starts looking at what areas of the PC/Mac are detrimental and shows this as being addressed then maybe 192/24bit downloads and audio from a computer will take off even more.

At the moment though there is not much robust evidence of major advances in resolution and performance from today's digital, just internet forum opinion on subjective quality.

;)

Steve Toy
20-10-2008, 18:46
Upsampling to a higher bitrate provides no greater resolution. As you say, it just sounds different. However, recordings made in high resolution in the first place sound utterly amazing. Meanwhile just plug your computer into a different mains circuit to the rest of your kit and all should be fine.

Beechwoods
20-10-2008, 19:07
(Back on topic, folks!)

Well done on the plug Marco - here's hoping it swells the ranks :)

David Price
21-10-2008, 19:07
I think upsampling certainly sweetens the CD pill; I really like what it does on 'budget' DACs like the Stello DA100 Signature for example, which is a brilliant bit of kit for the price. But even 24/96 uncompressed PCM isn't up to vinyl, even though it's obviously a step above CD. Methinks 32bit/384 might just do it for vinyl, but even then I'd miss the cover art/gatefolds and (gulp!) the smell of the vinyl and the cardboard of the sleeves. Actually, maybe nothing can usurp the mighty 12", because not even ultra hi res digital sounds like analogue, with its own distinctive and very pleasant euphonic colourations...? Guess I'll only be happy when I qualify for my bus pass!

Marco
21-10-2008, 19:28
You're absolutely right, David; in fact Steve and me were only just discussing this on the phone an hour ago!

The new high resolution formats sound exciting, and if they *really* deliver the goods as suggested then I'm in there, but like you say, the real benchmark to beat is vinyl. CD is not at the races! I'm also not a fan of the current fad of up-sampling. Like you say, it "sweetens the CD pill", but the fact is the "CD pill" doesn't need sweetened in the first place if played on a properly 'sorted' Red Book player, like a Sony CDP-R1/DAS-R1, and others of its ilk ;) - It only needs to be sweetened because so many CDPs now use cheap DVD ROM transports and anaemic sounding DACs with often dire sonic results. 'Keep it simple, stupid' is a mantra that fits well with hi-fi.

And yes, well-recorded 12" vinyl sounds amazing. I have some 12" singles that played through the 1210 have bass that would awaken the dead, and not just locally :eyebrows: - not to mention a huge soundstage you could walk around in, and detail and clarity that no 'digiphile' could ever imagine...

Don't worry you're not alone for that bus pass! :lol:

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 19:40
Oh well, here goes....

I don't really give a toss! ;)

To a large extent I've stopped caring about 'what's best'! The only thing I'm bothered about these days is enjoyment!

Now!... before everyone jumps on me, I'm a confirmed vinyl addict, but I'm so fed up of the format wars that I've given up. I couldn't give a toss anymore. :(

If I enjoy what I'm listening to, then it's just fine by me, so there! :ner:

Tomorrow however, when I'm less 'knackered and morose' I'll be spouting on about how crap digital is. Again! :lolsign:

Or whatever....

Togil
21-10-2008, 19:43
What about all the popping, crackling, rumbling, pre and post-echo, piano whining, etc ?

Strange, if you've been without it for many years it's very difficult to go back to vinyl ...

Mike
21-10-2008, 19:49
What about all the popping, crackling, rumbling, pre and post-echo, piano whining, etc ?

All part of the fun Hans! :)

Mike
21-10-2008, 19:51
Strange, if you've been without it for many years it's very difficult to go back to vinyl ...

I was without it or about two years... Missed it terribly! :eyebrows:

See... there I go again! :lolsign:


:doh:

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:04
Hans,


What about all the popping, crackling, rumbling, pre and post-echo, piano whining, etc ?


I'm not sure what "pre and post-echo" are, but the rest you just don't get if you take care of your records, keeping their playing surfaces in pristine condition, and paying meticulous attention to the set-up of your turntable, arm and cartridge (count me in). Old records bought at jumble sales and the like are a different matter, but like Mike says, that's all part of the fun!


Strange, if you've been without it for many years it's very difficult to go back to vinyl ...

Trust me, you wouldn't say that if you heard a *really* good vinyl set-up. Quite simply, your impression of vinyl depends on what your available benchmark is or has been in the past.

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:12
I'm not sure what "pre and post-echo" are, but the rest you just don't get if you take care of your records.


Ah, well... erm. See here:

http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3073&highlight=echo

;)

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:20
Interesting. Well I'd rather have "pre and post-echo" than listen to the 'plasticky' processed sound so many CD players produce, or God forbid, the tuneless cacophony of MP3! ;)

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:23
Interesting. Well I'd rather have "pre and post-echo" than listen to the 'plasticky' processed sound so many CD players produce, or God forbid, the tuneless cacophony of MP3! ;)

Marco.

You and me both bud!... Like I said, it's all about enjoyment! :)

Marco
21-10-2008, 20:33
Yep definitely, but quite simply some things sound more like real music than others, regardless of "enjoyment" :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike
21-10-2008, 20:44
quite simply some things sound more like real music than others

Couldn't agree more my friend! :)

dmckean
22-10-2008, 00:19
What about all the popping, crackling, rumbling, pre and post-echo, piano whining, etc ?

Strange, if you've been without it for many years it's very difficult to go back to vinyl ...

I have to admit having never grown up with records I found difficult to get used to at first before I finally decided vinyl was worth it.

Togil
22-10-2008, 07:03
With higher resolution digital ( CD quality probably isn't good enough ) it should be possible to process a recording to make it sound like vinyl, including pops etc
Maybe the necessary software already exists ?

Primalsea
22-10-2008, 09:56
With higher resolution digital ( CD quality probably isn't good enough ) it should be possible to process a recording to make it sound like vinyl, including pops etc
Maybe the necessary software already exists ?

From experience vinyl can sound fantastic with no pops at all. Problem is you need pristine records and an expensive cartridge. Cheap cartridges have fairly large styli and they dont sit deep into the grooves. I farted around around with lower cost cartridges ranging from £50 to £180 and felt the noise was always a problem. I took the plunge and bought an Ortofon Rohmann and the first thing that struck me was the lack of pops and clicks. Even records that were quite noisy with the cheape cartridges were much better with only the odd quite click.

A good cartridge won't fix a shite record, I got a used copy of Tea For The Tillerman which must have been a duff pressing, but many other used records have been absolutely fine.

The problem is that you have to be slightly mad to just buy a high end cartridge from the off and then spend £25 for a new heavyweight pressing album. Most people start with lower end stuff and are not always well versed in record care. Machines like the Clear Audio record cleaner is excellent but they cost over £1500 so most of us have to resort to manual cleaning. I use HMV record cleaner with a Microfibre cloth that I keep in its plastic container when not in use. This I find is alot better than the Disco Antistat and its a lot faster also.

Marco
22-10-2008, 10:40
Good post, Paul; I totally agree, although there are cartridges around which do as you say and that are not terribly expensive. Clue: I use one ;)

The trick is setting them up and partnering them properly!

Marco.

Primalsea
22-10-2008, 11:06
Good post, Paul; I totally agree, although there are cartridges around which do as you say and that are not terribly expensive. Clue: I use one ;)

The trick is setting them up and partnering them properly!

Marco.

Ahh, would that be the Marmite of the cartridge world, the Denon DL103, it seems you either love it or hate it.

Marco
22-10-2008, 12:21
LOL!

Marco.

Cotlake
22-10-2008, 19:24
Yep, I generally go with what Paul has said. The cartridge quality is key here, particularly the stylus. That is my experience also. I'm not a fan of the DL103 although I would like to try a elyptical retipped version. I'd still have issues around arm matching, mass loading and poor quality fixing. I do however have a Mayware Formular 4 which needs upgrading and then it might be worth a go.

On record cleaning I can thoroughly recommend the Cadence Okki Nokki cleaning machine. For around £300 it does an excellent job. I even use it on brand new pressings because they sound cleaner. To make it affordable, I went into joint ownership with a friend which is an option worth considering.

Marco
22-10-2008, 19:27
Hi Greg,

What cartridge are you using again on your 401? I've forgotten! Cheers :)

Marco.

Cotlake
22-10-2008, 21:38
Hi Marco,

It's an original and now old Ortofon MC30. I aquired it a couple of years ago in an almost unused condition at a very nice price. When released this cart got very mediocre reviews, however in my TT and as you know demonstrated at 4 shows, it's interesting how many punters inquire about the cartridge source because they like what they hear. Horses for courses as ever. Works for me and others seem to like it. It won't last for ever. I'm still thinking on where to go and if I could really get to grips with a 103, I could be happy there.

Best wishes,

Greg

Marco
22-10-2008, 22:08
Hi Greg,

Ortofons are always a safe bet. They're so consistent - I can't think of a bad one, and I quite liked the MC30.

You've got an ideal T/T to use with a 103. What arm are you using again? I tried to find where you posted that picture of your system but couldn't. Really, it could do with being posted on a thread in The Gallery under 'Greg's System' or whatever {hint} ;)

The Mayware might work if you can factor in some added headshell mass. It's a good arm and from the right era.

I note and accept your comments about the 103. The mass thing is just something that's necessary with low compliance cartridges, but it's not an issue when set-up and ancillaries are optimised. With regard to poor quality fixing, I would agree if you're trying to fit one on a standard fixed headshell with apertures on the top.

However the 103 was never designed to be used in that way. It was designed to be used on a high-mass detachable headshell (and arm to match) with pre-drilled holes on the underneath which hex bolts simply screw into, obviating the need to use nuts at the top to fix the cartridge to the headshell, and the nightmare of bolts slipping out of the open-sided lugs on the cartridge body.

See fifth picture down for what I mean:

http://denon.jp/museum/dl103series.html Here's another picture showing how the 103 was meant to be used with its matching SUT (you'll never get one to sound right using it through a modern active MC phonostage):

http://denon.jp/museum/gallery/1978_dl103t2.jpg

Going back to headshells, my Audio Technica LH-18, which is similar to the DL-103U shown above provides a very secure fixing for either my 103R or Pro, so there's no issue with unsecure fixing providing you use a headshell of this nature and a high-mass arm it will fit! The problem is the 103 is from an era when turntables and arms were very different to how they are now, but viable solutions can be found, and when they are trust me the sonic rewards are worth it.

Perhaps we can have a have a play at Owston if you bring your 401. I'll have my deck with me and a step-up transformer and head amp which are ideally suited to the 103 :)

Marco.

Filterlab
23-10-2008, 10:54
To a large extent I've stopped caring about 'what's best'! The only thing I'm bothered about these days is enjoyment!

Excellently put mate, I'm with you 100%. So my system is hardly the audiophile's dream, but it does exactly what I want. Ok so all in it's probably only set me back a total of £5500-£6000 somewhere (including cables, stands, modifications etc etc), hardly in the echelons of the upper reaches of hi-fi land, but it strikes my bells perfectly and I enjoy listening to it. :)

On topic; WELL DONE MARCO!, I look forward to reading the article. :)

Primalsea
23-10-2008, 12:06
I'd still have issues around arm matching, mass loading and poor quality fixing.

Oh don't (as in "don't go there"), it just gets more complicated. Its OK for those who know and understand what they're doing. For those that don't they have to rely upon a dealer or friend to set it all up properly. I'm quite sure some people have strayed away from vinyl because their gear was poorly setup and sounded bad as a result.

Marco
24-10-2008, 07:18
I totally agree with your last statement, Paul, but I hardly think this applies to Greg :)

Marco.

Primalsea
24-10-2008, 14:00
Ha Ha,

You knew what I meant you bugger.

Marco
24-10-2008, 14:02
Arf! ;)

Marco.

David Price
25-10-2008, 11:58
It's interesting how vinyl's detractors talk about all its technical frailties (pre/post echo, clicks, static, etc.) whilst forgetting that CD has its own set of serious problems. My argument would be that the nature of CD's flaws are 'fatal'; they 'hole it below the waterline'; all that low-to-medium level odd order harmonic distortion. Vinyl's flaws are often surmountable; you can get around them (albeit sometimes with some effort - i.e. record cleaning, anti static sleeves, etc.) and the ones you can't (i.e. lots of second harmonic distortion) are relatively benign to listen to - adding a 'sweetness'. That's the rub - vinyl is flawed in a euphonic way, CD flawed in a dysphonic way.

anthonyTD
25-10-2008, 16:07
very well put.
and congrats to all at AOS...
regards,anthony,TD...:)

Marco
26-10-2008, 18:22
Indeed. I completely agree, David. Try telling that though to our resident 'digiphiles'!

Anthony, AOS is now the official 'reference forum' for Hi-fi World. Isn't that right, David? ;)

Marco.

Filterlab
26-10-2008, 21:13
There's nothing wrong with digital playback. Marco, by continually stating along the lines of "digital can't be any good because analogue is the only way" you're ostracising a LOT of hi-fi enthusiasts.

Marco
26-10-2008, 21:43
I see what you're saying, Rob, but David makes a very valid point. I don't think "analogue is the only way". There are many examples of excellent digital products in the marketplace, but it's not as 'automatically superior' to some older technologies as some people make out. My intention is not to "ostracise" anyone. I'm merely expressing an opinion - it's up to people to think for themselves and have conviction in their own opinions.

Marco.

Filterlab
26-10-2008, 21:47
Indeed, but that doesn't completely negate all forms of digital reproduction as a replay medium. Ok, so CDs have issues, but analogue is hardly perfect either, especially if one actually requires some kind of dynamic range in their music. Both have strengths but neither one is 'better' and consequently neither one can be dismissed as no good in comparison.

Marco
26-10-2008, 22:15
This is not about what is factually "perfect", Rob - there is no such thing in hi-fi. It's about what some people regard (in their opinion) as superior.

Quite simply, there are many more analogue hi-fi products that I consider as sonically superior to their digital counterparts, and David appears to agree. But that's only our general opinion; it doesn't mean that either of us thinks that "analogue is the only way" - far from it. This is an important distinction to keep in mind.

The problem with much digital hi-fi equipment is that more often than not it's born with the goal of improving convenience, not absolute sound quality (you know as well as I do there are many valid examples of this) and that's what irks people like me who value (and strive for) the best sound reproduction possible with music and care not a jot about the convenience factor. In fact, I will go out my way to make life difficult for myself with hi-fi if it results in a better sound!

I guess that some people have other priorities or don't place the same emphasis on sound quality, and that's fine. Incidentally, I'm not saying that you come into this category. What can't be ignored though is that there exists a general reduction in sound quality standards with much of the equipment and new formats being introduced now. For example, some people consider the performance of mobile phones playing music as 'adequate', or MP3...!!

My belief is that until we return to placing audio performance BEFORE convenience when inventing and designing new products we'll continue going backwards more than forwards with hi-fi, certainly as far as enthusiasts like me and many of the people posting on forums like this are concerned. New audio technology if implemented correctly should result in many cases in superior sound quality but not if its existence is driven by bean-counters whose sole interest is financial gain.

Marco.

Mike
26-10-2008, 22:26
There are many examples of excellent digital products in the marketplace, but it's not as 'automatically superior' to some older technologies as some people make out.

You know what....

I don't think I can remember the last time I heard someone say that! :scratch:

Heard tons of folk (me included) make the opposite claim though! :scratch:

Maybe we should all just get on with enjoying what we like and stop being quite so 'evangelical' about it all? :) ;)

Marco
26-10-2008, 22:31
I'm "evangelical" about what I'm passionate about, Mike. It's as simple as that :)

Marco.

Mike
26-10-2008, 22:38
I know mate, but blimey, sometimes you don't bang on about it! :lolsign:

Thing is though, to a large extent you're 'preaching to the converted' so to speak. Maybe you'd be better off popping into an (for the sake of argument) iPod forum and saying something like "Oi!.. that's not the way ya daft eejits!... Come over to AoS and learn summat"!!! :eyebrows:

Primalsea
26-10-2008, 22:44
Well, err, if data transmission through digital was never invented we wouldn't have this loverly forum to talk about how crap it was.

Marco
26-10-2008, 22:47
Thing is though, to a large extent you're 'preaching to the converted' so to speak. Maybe you'd be better off popping into an (for the sake of argument) iPod forum and saying something like "Oi!.. that's not the way ya daft eejits!... Come over to AoS and learn summat"!!!


Sounds like a fun idea (not)! Or perhaps it might... :eyebrows:

David raised some interesting points, I commented in return, and Rob came in to 'stick up for' the digital side, to which I replied, so blame them! :ner:

Of the three Administrators, I'm 'Analogue Boy', Rob's 'Digital Boy', and Steve's 'Taxi boy'! :lol:

;)

Marco.

David Price
27-10-2008, 01:02
I think it's hard to say which is 'better' as if you're going to be pedantic they are simply different. Empirically, you can make a good case for analogue being better because of its more benign distortion characteristics - but neither format measures well. Still, there's a lot that can be heard that can't be measured, and it's here when analogue subjectively and in my opinion romps way ahead. Of course, there are different flavours of digital (I prefer SACD) but I've A-B'd them all against mid-price analogue and I'm afraid they don't compare well to my ears - or to those I dem them to. Still, in digital's defence though, you can now get very listenable £1000 CD players - and you really wouldn't miss vinyl unless you did a direct A-B. Personally, I don't think digital will start touching high end analogue until we get 32bit/384, and even then it won't sound as 'sweet' - the best 24/192 still isn't even close in some respects. So we've got a long wait... Meanwhile, the formats can coexist together, but one thing's for sure - digital isn't going to 'wipe out' analogue as people once predicted, as the latter has got so good and of course - unlike digital - it has theoretically infinite resolution.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 09:13
Of the three Administrators, I'm 'Analogue Boy', Rob's 'Digital Boy', and Steve's 'Taxi boy'! :lol:

;)


LOL! Taxi boy. :)

Yes I am a digiphile, but I appreciate a good vinyl set-up as much as the next man (unless the next man is Marco who appreciates one more than most ;)), but since CD I've never had a non-digital source and there's something about that stone cold, hard arsed, clinical presentation which pulls me in. I'm sure that sound type is achievable with vinyl, but the setting up and cleaning and dusting and anti-static this and brush-for-that and tracking angles and vertical force etc etc is just too much flannelling about for me; with my current system a few clicks and I'm listening to exactly what I want with the presentation I want.

Utterly natural digital may not be, but nobody can deny its potential and its dogged convenience. :)

jandl100
27-10-2008, 09:37
What about all the popping, crackling, rumbling, pre and post-echo, piano whining, etc ?

Strange, if you've been without it for many years it's very difficult to go back to vinyl ...

Yup, those are my thoughts and experiences, too, Hans.

Also, many folks rave about the good ol' 33rpm LP and how great it sounds to them ... but let's face it, it's a hugely compromised music carrier ..... just one listen to a 12 incher cut at 45rpm will convince you of that! ... just sooo much better in all ways.

It's OK, I'll get my coat ..... ;)

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 10:05
It's OK, I'll get my coat ..... ;)

You leave your coat where it is mate, I'm with you all the way. :)

Marco
27-10-2008, 10:24
Also, many folks rave about the good ol' 33rpm LP and how great it sounds to them ... but let's face it, it's a hugely compromised music carrier ..... just one listen to a 12 incher cut at 45rpm will convince you of that! ...

No need to get that coat, Jerry; I completely agree! There's *NOTHING* I've heard that touches the sound reproduced by my Techy when playing well-recorded (flat!) 12" singles...

But if you're using 45rpm vinyl as a benchmark for sound quality then that kicks digital's ass even more than its 33rpm counterpart, so we're very much in agreement of 'where it's at' with hi-fi :lolsign:

;)

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-10-2008, 10:42
Of the three Administrators, I'm 'Analogue Boy', Rob's 'Digital Boy', and Steve's 'Taxi boy'!


The above sentence just doesn't make sense, Marco. :mental:

It's a bit like saying,

"Rob's the "computer audio boy," Steve's the "CD boy" and Marco, er, frames pictures! :scratch: :D

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 10:43
"Rob's the "computer audio boy," Steve's the "CD boy" and Marco "frames pictures!" :scratch:

All factual. :)

Steve Toy
27-10-2008, 10:48
Factual yes, relevant no. The 20th November looks good.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 10:54
Factual yes, relevant no.

It'll join about 25% of the posts on here then! :lolsign:

Marco
27-10-2008, 10:57
...with my current system a few clicks and I'm listening to exactly what I want...

Utterly natural digital may not be, but nobody can deny its potential and its dogged convenience.


Rob,

There's nothing wrong with that at all, although for a discerning hi-fi and music enthusiast it can be a dangerous mindset to adopt. Just bear in mind that there's a fine line between all-embracing the convenience mentality and moving away from high-end separates hi-fi altogether and solely listening to your music on the likes of iPods and mobile phones, or dare I say it, ADM bloody 9s! :eyebrows:

You are ever so slightly beginning to show these worrying tendencies...

That's why I will *NEVER* entertain using any new hi-fi technology or device which is inferior in terms of pure sound quality to that which preceded it. I'm simply not interested in having the latest 'boy's toy' for the sake of convenience if it doesn't deliver the sonic goods to my standards - that's the bottom line! When I hear something new with digital that kicks the ass of my current analogue reference then I'll be the first one in the buying queue!

Technology issues or old vs. new gear doesn't greatly interest me - what's important to me is only what produces the best performance in terms of out-and-out sound quality and allows me to fully appreciate my music, nothing else matters; I will simply use whatever to my ears best facilitates this.

The only new digital technology I've heard so far which gets near to my satisfactory standards of sound quality is high-end computer audio (in conjunction with a top-notch NOS DAC) steaming music through the best lossless formats, but whilst this competes very well with my classic Red Book, heavily modified and upgraded Sony CDP playing CDs, it's nowhere near as good as listening to well-recorded vinyl (33 or 45rpm) on my KAB 1210. Perhaps the new high resolution computer formats will be the one? Maybe, but until I hear it sonically completely and utterly outperform what I get with a top-notch vinyl set-up you'll not find it gracing my listening room...

If this does happen I'll gladly sell my turntable and all my 'obsolete', 'legacy hi-fi' and valve gear; rather quaint phraseology coined by the now banned terrible twosome from AVI after bludgeoning everyone to death with their incessant computer audio and ADM9 propaganda, and buy the 'latest and greatest new thingy'. Somehow though I think I'll be in for a long wait ;)

Marco.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 11:14
You are ever so slightly beginning to show these worrying tendencies... ;)

You are so far wide of the mark you will never know! I never place convenience over quality, I never have. My point was; if one enjoys digital reproduction more than analogue reproduction, why pursue the associated sound type from an analogue source? With all the hassle that accompanies vinyl and any analogue source for that matter (the pitch instabilities, the slightest vibration causing problems, the dust and pops and clicks and wow and flutter etc etc) it puts a great argument forward for digital where almost all of those problems are reduced to the point of negligibility. A by-product of digital sound reproduction is convenience, it's a fact.

You're obviously getting mixed up somewhere though as you seem to be under the impression that I would dispense with my separates and listen to my iPod. Ok, I have an iPod, and an iPhone, but in no way would I ever call them hi-fi, far from it. They are good quality devices, but not in the context of hi-fi. However my computer based source and DAC are good quality in the context of hi-fi and they're both digital.

Marco
27-10-2008, 11:20
Yes, but when do you ever see me mention the word "convenience" in relation to hi-fi when attempting to justify my choices? Think about it ;)

For me, convenience with hi-fi (especially in the home) is a total and utter irrelevance. All that matters to me is out-and-out sound quality. Mentioning convenience in the way you have implies (note that I said "implies") that you're in some way, no matter how slightly, willing to compromise (absolute) performance for convenience.

At least that's what a statement like this suggests to me:


Utterly natural digital may not be, but nobody can deny its potential and its dogged convenience.


Do you see what I mean? If I'm wrong that's fair enough :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-10-2008, 11:27
Marco,

I infer from Rob's statement above that he would in no way compromise performance for convenience but convenience can be an added bonus when the performance box has been ticked.

One can be too careful in one's posts to the extent that subtle meaning gets lost through fear of misinterpretation in the face of certain bull-at-a-gate respondents... ;) :D

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 11:29
Yes, but when do you ever see me mention the word "convenience" in relation to hi-fi when attempting to justify my choices? Think about it ;)

No, but by the same token I never do either.


For me, convenience with hi-fi (especially in the home) is a total and utter irrelevance. Mentioning it in the way you have implies (note that I said "implies") that you're in some way, no matter how slightly, willing to compromise (absolute) performance for convenience.

At least that's what a statement like this suggests to me:

Do you see what I mean?

No, not really, hence my sentences: "A by-product of digital sound reproduction is convenience, it's a fact." and "I never place convenience over quality".

I've said repeatedly that I enjoy the sound of digital replay more than analogue replay, with that in mind I would never consider going back to vinyl under any circumstance, not because of the convenience aspect but because the sound doesn't do it for me regardless of the set-up. The convenience aspect of digital is simply the icing on the cake. I've certainly never said anything along the lines of "I'm going to go down the computer audio route because it's less hassle than vinyl" for the single reason that it's of no importance.

However, the fact remains that digital is more convenient which is of course is a HUGE governing factor for many folk, not audiophiles though. :lolsign:


Marco,

I infer from Rob's statement above that he would in no way compromise performance for convenience but convenience can be an added bonus when the performance box has been ticked.

One can be too careful in one's posts to the extent that subtle meaning gets lost through fear of misinterpretation in the face of certain bull-at-a-gate respondents... ;) :D

LOL! Thanks Steve, I was questioning my ability to explain myself there. :)

Marco
27-10-2008, 11:32
That's fair enough, Steve, and I accept that. It was just how it read to me, and also how it could have read to others.

We have 'discerning ear points' (DEPs) on AOS instead of the more inane (and mundane) FEPs on others. I wouldn't wish to see monsieur Filterlab risking falling into a position of deficit... ;)

Rob, I'm with you now dude! :cool:

Marco.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 11:37
Hooray! Fank u matey!

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 11:37
I do like getting into these conversations with Marco, always fun! :lolsign:

Man this thread has drifted.

Marco
27-10-2008, 11:49
You're welcome - it's all part of the service, dahling :bum:

Thread drift like this simply shows how vibrant and active, not to mention informative, challenging and friendly we are as a forum - which is probably why we're being featured in Hi-fi World (the original thread subject)! ;)

Marco.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 11:52
Indeed, the threads drift into meaningful conversation of course which makes it welcome. :) I'm looking forward to reading the article anyway, hopefully we'll pick up a few more members too.

Marco
27-10-2008, 11:59
Yup, dat's wotit's all about :smoking:

It would be good also, though, if we could give something back to Hi-fi World in terms of making the magazine even better than it is now. I'm sure we could come up with some ideas.

I do enjoy quality thread drift, though - and we've had some hugely entertaining examples over the months since we started the forum!

Marco.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 12:08
Definitely, I can't believe AoS has been going for less than a year though, feels a lot longer than that.

I concur on the Hi-Fi World thing, although I can't think what. I've popped their link up at the top of the Links Box rather than alphabetically, but I think we need to have a suggestions box to gather some ideas up.

Marco
27-10-2008, 12:18
Sounds like we should post a poll and ask our members what they think! ;)

Marco.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 12:20
Good idea matey! Maybe get a 'think tank' thread up first then poll the ideas. :)

Marco
27-10-2008, 12:22
Do you fancy doing the honours? :)

I'm just about to pop out to see a customer.

Marco.

Filterlab
27-10-2008, 12:22
Nay probs.

Cotlake
27-10-2008, 23:22
......with my current system a few clicks and I'm listening to exactly what I want with the presentation I want. :)

Just to back track a bit Rob, that to me seems like the statement of a diehard vinyl user ;)

Best wishes,

greg

Filterlab
28-10-2008, 08:31
Just to back track a bit Rob, that to me seems like the statement of a diehard vinyl user ;)

Best wishes,

greg

LOL! I see where you're coming from Greg. :) Of course I meant mouse clicks. :lolsign:

Marco
31-10-2008, 11:42
Page 8.

Has anyone else got their copy yet?

Marco.

Filterlab
31-10-2008, 11:57
Not yet, will pick one up tonight and scan it on to a JPG and post it up on here in a special section.

Does he call us a bunch of feckwits? :lol:

Marco
31-10-2008, 12:13
Good idea!

No, but he does mention how fabulous you look 'resplendent' in your little white tennis shorts and had considered using that image to support the article. However, after due consideration, it was decided that it might entice the wrong type of 'clientele' :eyebrows:

Marco.

Filterlab
31-10-2008, 13:05
I know mate, I get all sorts of emails now. :eyebrows:

Steve Toy
31-10-2008, 13:07
Funny how it's on page 8 in my copy too. :D

Mike
31-10-2008, 13:18
I didn't know it was out yet!

I'll have wander into WHS this afternoon.

Marco
31-10-2008, 14:31
Erm, what date does it say the issue is available in the first post on this thread? ;)

You should've gone to Specsavers! :lol:

Marco.

Mike
31-10-2008, 15:58
Sorry, too long ago...

WAAAY beyond my attention span! :ner:

Marco
31-10-2008, 16:59
Short term memory loss...

Is this what it's like after 45? :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

Mike
31-10-2008, 17:25
I wouldn't know.

I can't remember.....

Colinx
31-10-2008, 19:52
as its discuss this month, how the hell can the same issue of the mag slate the CD release of metallica's new album for being yack from a mastering view point, and expect us to go for the LP issue. It'll doubtless be the same loudness wars battle stuff as well.
(serve's me right for reading it, but I do read it every month)

Filterlab
31-10-2008, 20:08
Short term memory loss...

Is this what it's like after 45? :eyebrows:


You should know! :lol:

Mike
31-10-2008, 20:20
The administrator has decided that Colin should be quiet for a while.


I love that! :lolsign:

Colinx
31-10-2008, 20:37
Colin can be quiet for as long as you want, that will not change the content of this months issue will it?

Marco
01-11-2008, 01:05
You should know! :lol:

LOL. I'll let you know in two years time! ;)

Marco.

Mike
01-11-2008, 11:03
How about an item or two of WD gear in the 'banner' ?

Cotlake
02-11-2008, 03:43
Hi Mike,

That would be good but realise that although HFW and WD enjoy a special relationship, it is no more than that. They are these days entirely different companies. Therefore puting WD images into the banner would not promote HFW. In fact it could have a negative effect. HFW are very concious of the historical relationship with what was WAD and is now WD. If they go over the top promoting WD products their concern is that they will be accused of bias and partial reporting. As a result, although HFW reviews of WD kit turn out positive, they are presented in a rather chilled out manner.

Best wishes,

Greg

Marco
04-11-2008, 17:07
Greg,

I'd put WD gear on the banner simply because the products are excellent regardless of any connection (or otherwise) with HFW.

I think your Slatedeck 401 will be going in because it's not only a great T/T but it also promotes Darren's superb slate plinths. 'Buy one, get one free', if you like :)

Marco.

Neil McCauley
04-11-2008, 18:55
Guys,

Following a meeting today with the magazine's editor David Price, I can confirm that the forum will be featured in the December issue of Hi-fi World, which is out on sale on 31st October 08 so make sure you all buy a copy!! :)

The article will be in the 'News' section at the beginning of the magazine and will feature an introduction to the forum by me and a screen shot of the homepage together with a link to our site. This will expose the forum to a much wider audience just in time for the busy festive season.

So on behalf of everyone on AOS I would like thank David - who's a top bloke - and Hi-fi World for supporting what we're trying to achieve and giving us such a wonderful promotional opportunity.

Marco.

How many new members have joined as a direct result so far?

---//---

Marco
04-11-2008, 19:23
Hi Howard,

It's hard to tell as new members rarely say where they found us unless asked specifically. However, those who've joined recently have all been UK-based, which is a little unusual and suggests they're here as a result of the article in the magazine.

I'll ask those who join in future where they found out about us :)

Marco.