Personal experience: mains cable upgrade

[Yoga]

Just to start, this is a brief report on my own findings. I would have posted this in the large cable thread but it appears to be locked/closed.

I was looking at the Mark Grant's 2.5 DSP and Wireworld Stratus cables. A couple of members (here and elsewhere) pointed me towards this...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDIO-FRIENDLY-GOLD-Audiophile-Mains-Power-cable-1m-/310096097971

... in which they had compared to other power cables of various prices/target markets.

The difference is not mind blowing, the soundstage didn't open up tremendously etc., but I did however, notice a slight increase in clarity/focus, and even heard detail in a favourite song that I'd not heard before. Pretty cool :cool:

So, yes, well worth the £20, with audible differences. I am unsure as to whether more expensive cables would do any better, and those who have made their own comparisons (with this particular power cable), have said that is not the case. As with everything, I will hold judgement until making the comparison myself :¬)

I can imagine the changes, considered minor to me, could be considered prominent by another.

One must remember that, along with the nuances of different set-ups, each of us has different hearing. Just as sight varies from person to person, so does sound. Some people are capable of hearing more detail/frequencies than others. Some equipment will be more prone to changes than others.

Back to work! :¬)

[Effem]

Indeed there are sound "differences" in mains cables Ross and your observation that the improvement from the cable you purchased was slight, does not surprise me at all given that the cable you have bought is a generic 1.5mm2 SY light armoured cable used mostly in moving machinery - sorry to burst your bubble. Most of the ebay sellers are using this type of mains cable and the only difference between any of them is the florid descriptions about the potency of their wares. The copper in the cable isn't of high grade quality and the screen while it looks nice through it's transparent sheath actually does very little to shield radiation, within and outwith the cable, in fact if you disconnect it (assuming the vendor has connected it of course) there is no difference in sound at all. Another myth busted :(

I have not myself auditioned either Mark's or Dave's mains cables (hint, hint) but I am sure any one of their products would be a marked improvement over your recent purchase and if not, they do a demo/trial period at no risk to your pocket so I believe. I do know a pure silver cable will give you a more substantial sonic improvement if your budget will allow.

[Yoga]

Indeed there are sound "differences" in mains cables Ross and your observation that the improvement from the cable you purchased was slight, does not surprise me at all given that the cable you have bought is a generic 1.5mm2 SY light armoured cable used mostly in moving machinery - sorry to burst your bubble. Most of the ebay sellers are using this type of mains cable and the only difference between any of them is the florid descriptions about the potency of their wares. The copper in the cable isn't of high grade quality and the screen while it looks nice through it's transparent sheath actually does very little to shield radiation, within and outwith the cable, in fact if you disconnect it (assuming the vendor has connected it of course) there is no difference in sound at all. Another myth busted :(

I have not myself auditioned either Mark's or Dave's mains cables (hint, hint) but I am sure any one of their products would be a marked improvement over your recent purchase and if not, they do a demo/trial period at no risk to your pocket so I believe. I do know a pure silver cable will give you a more substantial sonic improvement if your budget will allow.

Thank you for the breakdown Frank. No bubble burst :¬)

To reiterate, I'm not judging all power cables via this one, rather, the only one I have experienced myself. At £20, no harm done really.

Which is the silver cable you speak of?

[Effem]

Which is the silver cable you speak of?

I wasn't referring to any specific silver cable, just a generic power cord made with pure silver wire :)

I used to make them ranging from £125 p/m to £450 p/m and fool that I am I didn't keep a top of the range one for my own use. Wally :doh:

I think Dalkey Audio on ebay still sell pure silver mains cables.

[Yoga]

I wasn't referring to any specific silver cable, just a generic power cord made with pure silver wire :)

I used to make them ranging from £125 p/m to £450 p/m and fool that I am I didn't keep a top of the range one for my own use. Wally :doh:

I think Dalkey Audio on ebay still sell pure silver mains cables.

Pretty certain that Mark Grant also does a silver version of the DSP 2.5...

Edit: http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_reviews&products_id=69

Looks to be plated, rather than pure. £125 is over budget for a cable, for me :¬)

[Mark Grant]

Only Copper from me at the moment. :)

The silver plated refers to the connectors.

When I get my camera out I will take some pictures of the construction of a few power cables.
Even though some look similar on the outside they can be completely different on the inside, and that's what counts. :eyebrows:

[John]

I use pure silver cables with good quality connectors and sheilding
I tend to agree with Frank views on this and would also state that in some homes this is not as critical as other homes

[Yoga]

Only Copper from me at the moment. :)

The silver plated refers to the connectors.

When I get my camera out I will take some pictures of the construction of a few power cables.
Even though some look similar on the outside they can be completely different on the inside, and that's what counts. :eyebrows:

Thanks Mark, would be interested to see.

[worthingpagan]

I've had Wireworld Stratus mains cables, Tacima, & many others. Still using some Mark Grant dsp1's for fig 8 cxt. For me, solid silver is the way to go. I've been lucky enough to locate some of the old TM3 Silver Halide mains cables, 16 solid cores. The difference these silver cables make is mind blowing. I know the price of raw materials, particularly silver, has massively increased of late, but I implore you to try and find even just 1 solid silver cable, for any part of your system, i/c, mains or speaker cables. Hear what you've been missing ;) Sorry if i've wandered off topic :cool:

[hifinutt]

my dealer advised me to sell all my silver mains cables and use heavy duty copper !!

[John]

Well he sounds like a good dealer Lol
I think to be honest stuff like this will depend on your own circumstances no hard and fast rules But when I use silver I want it soft annealed and 99,99%

[MCRU]

my dealer advised me to sell all my silver mains cables and use heavy duty copper !!

Phil the cable I sent you is heavy duty copper, not called The Ultimate for nothing! Put the Furutech carbon fibre IEC and Rhodium plug on and be astonished, well it would have to be the schuko version for you would it not?

Frank can I quote your comment in my e-bay shop as all the lemmings on there seem to think SY is audiophile cable when it's main use is in robotics?

[hifinutt]

Phil the cable I sent you is heavy duty copper, not called The Ultimate for nothing! Put the Furutech carbon fibre IEC and Rhodium plug on and be astonished, well it would have to be the schuko version for you would it not?

Frank can I quote your comment in my e-bay shop as all the lemmings on there seem to think SY is audiophile cable when it's main use is in robotics?

yes indeed , the schuko version and i intend to use the furukawa cable on my latest pre amp !

[Effem]

Frank can I quote your comment in my e-bay shop as all the lemmings on there seem to think SY is audiophile cable when it's main use is in robotics?

Be my guest David, because it is true :eyebrows:

Makes me smile when these "cable experts" claim that SY and CY are designed to meet critical audiophile demands, when in fact it was specifically designed for machinery with moving parts that need an electricity supply. Methinks it's the braid showing through the transparent outer sheath that gave it the hi-fi suitability credentials :rolleyes:

[MCRU]

Be my guest David, because it is true :eyebrows:

Makes me smile when these "cable experts" claim that SY and CY are designed to meet critical audiophile demands, when in fact it was specifically designed for machinery with moving parts that need an electricity supply. Methinks it's the braid showing through the transparent outer sheath that gave it the hi-fi suitability credentials :rolleyes:

It does look quite sexy I must admit but that is all it will do for your system, make it look nicer! Performance wise its about the same as a £0.99 kettle lead, and gold plating does not do much good, we all know silver is the best conductor known to man closely followed by copper.

The LAPP CY is much better IMHO, costs more of course.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/IMG_2910.jpg

[Yoga]

It does look quite sexy I must admit but that is all it will do for your system, make it look nicer! Performance wise its about the same as a £0.99 kettle lead, and gold plating does not do much good, we all know silver is the best conductor known to man closely followed by copper.

The LAPP CY is much better IMHO, costs more of course.

How much more? :¬)

[MCRU]

How much more? :¬)

You don't need me to put prices of cables on a public forum so that all and sundry can buy it and make their own power cords up...:)

[Marco]

yes indeed , the schuko version and i intend to use the furukawa cable on my latest pre amp !

You need to add your name to your profile, mate! ;)

Other than that, you're spot on. David's 'Ultimate' power lead is unquestionably head and shoulders the best mains lead that has ever graced my system - rather like Mark Grant's G2000HDs (with silver WBTs) occupy the same position, in terms of interconnects.

We're lucky on AoS to have two cable retailers who supply exceptional products at very competitive prices, and most importantly, are nice guys, too! :cool:

Marco.

[MCRU]

You need to add your name to your profile, mate! ;)

Other than that, you're spot on. David's 'Ultimate' power lead is unquestionably head and shoulders the best mains lead that has ever graced my system - rather like Mark Grant's G2000HDs (with silver WBTs) occupy the same position, in terms of interconnects.

We're lucky on AoS to have two cable retailers who supply exceptional products at very competitive prices, and most importantly, are nice guys, too! :cool:

Marco.

:mex:

check out the new AOS up-graded signature section, whose idea was that I wonder :lol:

[MCRU]

Talking of nice guys Marco, if you go to Whittlebury (obviously to come to my stand first) please meet hifi nutt who is really Phil, he is a top bloke and dare I say it, nearly as addicted as you to his hi-fi and music.

[Marco]

Lol - I know it's Phil (and yes, he is a top bloke)... I was just giving him a gentle poke to put his name on his profile ;)

I'll defo be at Whittlebury Hall, so will cruise by your stall, daftee!

Marco.

[Yoga]

You don't need me to put prices of cables on a public forum so that all and sundry can buy it and make their own power cords up...:)

Not sure I'm following you there, I was asking how much you sell the product for. Which, if it's on the website, is public information anyway :¬)

[MCRU]

Not sure I'm following you there, I was asking how much you sell the product for. Which, if it's on the website, is public information anyway :¬)

Sorry boss communication breakdown on my part:-

This will give you an idea. (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/325-mains-cables-r-us-no18-fig8-power-lead.html)

[Yoga]

Sorry boss communication breakdown on my part:-

This will give you an idea. (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/325-mains-cables-r-us-no18-fig8-power-lead.html)

Thanks, although I'm more interested in the LAPP one.

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/146-audiophile-mains-lead-lapp-cable.html

Which is in direct competition with Marks DSP 2.5.

Decisions, decisions :¬)

[worthingpagan]

Thanks, although I'm more interested in the LAPP one.

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/146-audiophile-mains-lead-lapp-cable.html

Which is in direct competition with Marks DSP 2.5.

Decisions, decisions :¬)

Have you thought about Supra?

[Mark Grant]

Thanks, although I'm more interested in the LAPP one.

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/146-audiophile-mains-lead-lapp-cable.html

Which is in direct competition with Marks DSP 2.5.

Decisions, decisions :¬)

It's not the same regardless of what anyone tells you.:)

I will post some internal pictures and maybe some measurements when I get time to do them.
You will see the construction is very different, its what's inside that makes the difference.

[MCRU]

Then you have the connectors to put into the equation, cheap cable and good connectors will never sound as good as good cable with cheap connectors IMO. Oh and good cable and good connectors sound best of course!

Supra lo-rad is good but where do you stop, we could debate mains wires for decades as the choice on offer is bewildering, my personal views are... as everything is returnable from the web the consumer now has a better choice and options than he/she ever had so audition with your ears and try to ignore all the vendors saying silver plated sounds better than gold plated blah, blah, blah, the simplest test is plug it in and listen to a favourite song, does it sound the same or better or worse (after a week listen again as cables need burning in). If the money you spent is commensurate with the improvement gained (assuming there are some) keep it and enjoy the music, if not send it back and enjoy the music.

Cables, who needs em...........:steam:

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/BONI/IMG_2846.jpg

[ursus262]

So what are Belden mains cables like then? Any cop?

[MCRU]

Belden 19364 cable has been in production for over 20 years, discovered by Bob Crump of TG Audio Labs (sadly Bob passed away but his discovery lives on), he noticed all that time ago that the power cords on Levinson equipment sounded so good he cut it open and found that the cable was Belden 19364, it has been popular ever since that day, it's probably 25 years actually, it's 3 core 2.5mm copper but has a very good drain wire and beldfoil shield which acts as a sort of faraday cage, for the money the cable is outstanding and I sell 100's of metres a year for DIY and as a ready made mains lead, so to sum up, well worth a punt.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/LAPP/_DSC2001-400px.jpg (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/143-the-audio-asylum-mains-power-cord.html)

[ursus262]

Today, I have been on the Naim forum, and have made an interesting discovery. Apparently, the cheap-looking cable that comes with the unit being purchased is of very high quality, such that there appears to be little benefit from using aftermarket cables. I used a screened cable that was made up by an ebay trader using German screened cable for industrial use. I decided to swap it for the Naim cable in the back of my Naim Uniti, and there has definitely been an improvement. The Belden cable, though might be good for my Universal Disc Player, as I think the e-bay cable might be suspect in quality.
I still can't make up my mind as to whether or not to get a balanced mains transformer though, as I understand earth noise might be an issue. Confusion reighns.

[MCRU]

Belden 19364 cable has been in production for over 20 years, discovered by Bob Crump of TG Audio Labs (sadly Bob passed away but his discovery lives on), he noticed all that time ago that the power cords on Levinson equipment sounded so good he cut it open and found that the cable was Belden 19364, it has been popular ever since that day, it's probably 25 years actually, it's 3 core 2.5mm copper but has a very good drain wire and beldfoil shield which acts as a sort of faraday cage, for the money the cable is outstanding and I sell 100's of metres a year for DIY and as a ready made mains lead, so to sum up, well worth a punt.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/LAPP/_DSC2001-400px.jpg (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/143-the-audio-asylum-mains-power-cord.html)

Apparently, the cheap-looking cable that comes with the unit being purchased is of very high quality, such that there appears to be little benefit from using aftermarket cables



That is Naim themselves saying that is it or the members on the Naim forum, either way why do Naim sell their own power cord then for £395 (ish), I have at least 3 customers who sold their Naim mains leads and now use something that costs roughly 1/2 the price and sounds better, well it goes without saying you can't please all the people all the time. :)

[Yoga]

Have you thought about Supra?

Not even heard of them until now. Any particular model?


It's not the same regardless of what anyone tells you.:)

I will post some internal pictures and maybe some measurements when I get time to do them.
You will see the construction is very different, its what's inside that makes the difference.

Would be interested to see, thanks.

[ursus262]

Apparently, the cheap-looking cable that comes with the unit being purchased is of very high quality, such that there appears to be little benefit from using aftermarket cables



That is Naim themselves saying that is it or the members on the Naim forum, either way why do Naim sell their own power cord then for £395 (ish), I have at least 3 customers who sold their Naim mains leads and now use something that costs roughly 1/2 the price and sounds better, well it goes without saying you can't please all the people all the time. :)

Well, this is fascinating. Firstly, the cable is more expensive than even you thought, as it retails for about £500, which is quite a hefty amount to pay for a mains lead! Secondly, the forum members who used it found that, actually, it isn't that good and some even mentioned that the Belden wire is just as good, if not better, than some of the competing cables.

Could you do me a favour and PM me with a price for a 1m belden cable with IEC connector and for a 1m belden cable with a figure of eight (two pole) cable?

Cheers.

Dave

[MCRU]

Well, this is fascinating. Firstly, the cable is more expensive than even you thought, as it retails for about £500, which is quite a hefty amount to pay for a mains lead! Secondly, the forum members who used it found that, actually, it isn't that good and some even mentioned that the Belden wire is just as good, if not better, than some of the competing cables.

Could you do me a favour and PM me with a price for a 1m belden cable with IEC connector and for a 1m belden cable with a figure of eight (two pole) cable?

Cheers.

Dave

IEC Version (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/148-mains-cables-r-us-no14-mains-lead.html)

Fig.8 Version (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/149-fig8-mains-power-lead-entry-level.html)

[ursus262]

IEC Version (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/148-mains-cables-r-us-no14-mains-lead.html)

Fig.8 Version (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/149-fig8-mains-power-lead-entry-level.html)

Order placed :)

[worthingpagan]

Order placed :)

That was easy :lol:

You wait, you'll be startled at the difference ;)

[ursus262]

Well, I fitted my new Belden cable from Mains Cables R Us, and it has resolved the problem with my flat-sounding universal disc player. The stereo imaging has improved, and the noise floor appears to have moved out of the way of the music.

I have also installed the Mark Grant 1000HD interconnects on the problem component and sadly, as predicted, I can't hear any performance gain over the Cambridge Audio interconnects that I had previously. That said, they are fine cables and I'm pleased to have them in my system.

This seems to confirm my belief that, for me anyway, the issues were related to mains supply, and that changes in interconnects don't seem to make much difference.

[worthingpagan]

Well, I fitted my new Belden cable from Mains Cables R Us, and it has resolved the problem with my flat-sounding universal disc player. The stereo imaging has improved, and the noise floor appears to have moved out of the way of the music.

I have also installed the Mark Grant 1000HD interconnects on the problem component and sadly, as predicted, I can't hear any performance gain over the Cambridge Audio interconnects that I had previously. That said, they are fine cables and I'm pleased to have them in my system.

This seems to confirm my belief that, for me anyway, the issues were related to mains supply, and that changes in interconnects don't seem to make much difference.

Are the cables new? If so, they'll need probably need at least 50 hours playing to start sounding their best. If not then your original prognosis may well be right ;)

[Mark Grant]

Well, I fitted my new Belden cable from Mains Cables R Us, and it has resolved the problem with my flat-sounding universal disc player. The stereo imaging has improved, and the noise floor appears to have moved out of the way of the music.

I have also installed the Mark Grant 1000HD interconnects on the problem component and sadly, as predicted, I can't hear any performance gain over the Cambridge Audio interconnects that I had previously. That said, they are fine cables and I'm pleased to have them in my system.

This seems to confirm my belief that, for me anyway, the issues were related to mains supply, and that changes in interconnects don't seem to make much difference.

Which universal player is it and what else is it connected to ?
Shouldn't be flat :)

Might be worth trying other mains cables and mains filters as many of the Blu ray players have electrically noisy PSU's.
It's something I have been testing while working on mains filters and DC blockers etc. ( have been testing a new model mains noise analyser for the last week)

Might be worth comparing the Belden mains cable to other makes of mains cables and seeing if there are differences, remember the returns policy is long at many websites.

Many people appear to notice differences with interconnects more than mains cables, every system is different of course so trying and returning is the only way to know.

I doubt you will get more neutral sounding than the copper in the my cables for the price, is high quality and neutral as a good cable should be.
The different versions with more expensive connectors all alter the sound in systems that can show the difference.

Maybe try something pure silver if your system needs it.

[ursus262]

Well, the installation of a Tachima mains filter some five years ago did solve the initial problems with my system. It was only after I bought two cables from an ebay seller that the problems really began. The new mains cables have solved the problem.

The next step is a balanced mains transformer which will improve mains quality even further.

With interconnects, I find it hard to tell the difference between them. Sometimes I think I can tell a subtle difference, other times I am not sure. Unless there is a clear difference, then I tend not to notice subtle changes.

My difficulties tend to originate from the mains, and have done for years.

[MCRU]

This little beauty has very good feedback from customers with blu-ray players, it's for filtering to a single component and most customers end up buying a few, click on the image for details:-

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/284-509-large/mains-cables-r-us-in-line-mains-filter.jpg (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-filters/284-mains-cables-r-us-in-line-mains-filter.html)

The belden cable (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/cable-off-the-reel/14-belden-19364-audio-grade-cable.html) has been in use as a hifi mains cable for nearly 25 years and it's more popular now than ever before so it must be "half decent" as we say in yorkshire.

IMHO all cables benefit from burn in, Mark's interconnects are used in my system (I change frequently but usually go back to Mark's) and they do need burning in, copper does!

[ursus262]

Which universal player is it and what else is it connected to ?
Shouldn't be flat :)



I've got a Cambridge Audio 650BD. Most of the audio is sent via optical to the Naim Uniti. SACD is different though, as that can only be decoded internally and sent via RCA cables.