View Full Version : TT ability to accurately hold a note
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
08-07-2011, 15:55
Now general consensus here seems to be that a belt drive can't hold a note, well I agree with that. BUT do you think that the compliance effect of the belt is made worse by the compliance of the suspension in the classic 3 point sprung system. AND is one of these made worse (I think we all know who) by having the centre of gravity above the springs and acting as an upside down pendulum always seeking equilibrium.
I have only encountered wow and flutter on turntables with belt drive and a lightweight platter. I had a Logic DM101 for a number of years with a platter so heavy you would not want to drop on your foot and once it was up to speed the sheer inertia of that overcame the weedy little Airpax motor it was being driven with. In fact, the blessed thing wouldn't rotate easily from standstill without a decent shove by hand :lol: When the power was cut it took a good while to come to a stop too.
I'm not part of that consensus.. and can we be sure that those who claim to be are not brainwashing themselves via objective and cerebral arguments rather than via their ears?
My Pink Triangle Anniversary holds a note well and so does a MRM "The Source" as examples.
The Anniversary has the motor mounted on the subchassis and The Source has a very heavy platter.
Linns have always been ok - perhaps we're talking a degree of note holding I've not yet heard or appreciated?
I admit I've not heard a top DD yet so could well be I've not experienced what is possible..
Now general consensus here seems to be that a belt drive can't hold a note, well I agree with that.
Erm, I'm not sure it's quite as 'black & white' as that, Richard... ;)
Also, let's be very careful not to turn this into another Linn (or LP12) bashing thread.
It isn't at the moment, and I'm sure that's not why you started the discussion, so if possible, let's refrain from mentioning specific manufacturer's products, and concentrate instead on the merits (or lack thereof) of the T/T drive systems themselves.
Out of interest, what do you see as the weaknesses and/or inherent sonic signature of direct-drive? I'd be curious to know whether we agree on this :)
Marco.
A good thing about the construction of many good DD decks is that the motor is pretty much bespoke, built into the design as a whole.
I like the idea of this more holistic approach but kind of pushes prices into the pro market or unobtainable high end.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
08-07-2011, 17:33
Erm, I'm not sure it's quite as 'black & white' as that, Richard... ;)
Also, let's be very careful not to turn this into another Linn (or LP12) bashing thread.
It isn't at the moment, and I'm sure that's not why you started the discussion, so if possible, let's refrain from mentioning specific manufacturer's products, and concentrate instead on the merits (or lack thereof) of the T/T drive systems themselves.
Out of interest, what do you see as the weaknesses and/or inherent sonic signature of direct-drive? I'd be curious to know whether we agree on this :)
Marco.
With a good DD or a good rim drive it is a feeling of solidity to the music, a rightness. With a belt drive all of them I have heard including one I designed myself, you get this slightly uncomfortable feeling that the pitch is not quite right even though you hear no wow unless something is really adrift or you need a new belt. For me the clincher is the piano, then I have no doubt the note is changing pitch even if ever so slightly. I have not heard this on any rim or direct drive I have owned.
My point is not so much the belt, for me that is a given, and from the number of techy owners here I took it as a forum consensus. My point of query is does anyone think that the compliance of the 3 point suspension contribute to it as it is inherently unstable in the leading product of the pack. I think four or more point suspensions and more than one motor helps enormously with this, and if you change the belt for a non compliant cord the problem fades away. BUT AFAIK you cannot use cord drive with a sprung suspension.
I deliberately didn't mention a manufacturers name as I knew it would bring out the dogs again.
sq225917
08-07-2011, 17:35
I've owned several belt drive decks that could hold a note, they measured bob on as well.
My Kuzma Stabi/S was pitch perfect once the crap AC motor was replaced with a DC unit and a suitable DC motor controller that was specifically tuned for the compliance of the belt/platter mass. My current SME 10 is also pretty much perfect in this regard. The external rotor AC motor is driven by an outboard two-speed controller incorporating an 8-bit microprocessor and torque-maximizing MOSFET bridge circuit. Each speed has an integral, crystal reference that monitors the speed 120 times per revolution. What do they both have in common, high mass and no suspension to kick back from the motor.
The Voyds I have heard have stability in spades as well, as does the AudioNote TT3 monster.
The worst culprits for poor speed stability from 'quality' decks have always been the 3 point brigade, particularly the LP12. I don't think I've ever heard one that is really pitch solid, despite finding them likeable otherwise.
My TD125mk1 seems ok, although I admittedly track at well under 2g. I probably wouldn't feel the same had I attempted to use a SPU at 3g or so...
4g, minimum, as optimal, baby! ;)
Marco.
I think some of the issues of belt drives can be overcome with a heavy platter on the old VPI HW19mk4 I had the lead platter really helped and is still the best belt drive with springs I heard But still not match of a good DD or Rim drive.
4g, minimum, as optimal, baby! ;)
Marco.
Ah, same as a 9TAHC in a Garrard auto-changer then :) Oh yeah, those old groove-grinders were idler driven too :D I now use Ortofon OM Pro and GT at 4g, so no bovver :lol:
A direct drive deck still has a flexible linkage between the drive and platter - that of the electro-magnetic field on the magnets on the platter - we can all feel the springy-ness of magnetic fields when pushing magnet's same poles together.
A badly designed direct drive could surely provide wow and flutter too - especially if the drive is underpowered for the job and the platter very light?
Then some would say heavy platters gain in some areas but loose out in others like micro-dynamics, smearing fine detail due to acoustic energy being 'stored' and released slowly back to the vinyl.
Again, all compromises, and so holding a note may be at the expense of something else..
sq225917
08-07-2011, 21:27
There's no free lunch in HIFI that's for sure.
Mine's a prawn sandwich! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ah, same as a 9TAHC in a Garrard auto-changer then Oh yeah, those old groove-grinders were idler driven too I now use Ortofon OM Pro and GT at 4g, so no bovver :lol:
Aye, no there's no bovver with a hover.... I heard that things are picking up on the G800 front, too! ;)
Nice one :eyebrows:
Marco.
My Rock holds a note well, Piano is a good test of stability and I hear no wavering of the notes.
pure sound
11-07-2011, 10:32
Out of interest, what do you see as the weaknesses and/or inherent sonic signature of direct-drive? I'd be curious to know whether we agree on this :)
Marco.
A lack of contrast or the capacity to startle compared with the better suspended decks. ie notes coming from nothing. (This shortcoming also applies to idler drive types as well).
But of course speed stability & pitch accuracy are both usually beyond reproach with the better DD's.
sq225917
12-07-2011, 00:13
If you'd really like to bland that DD deck out a little further stick a SME V on it !
pure sound
12-07-2011, 08:24
You'll hear the SME on a much fruitier sounding TT this coming w/e!
chris@panteg
12-07-2011, 08:35
You'll hear the SME on a much fruitier sounding TT this coming w/e!
Voyd ;)
My feeling is that the problem isn't the ability to hold a steady note, but rather what happens under dynamic conditions. The test I'd like to try runs as follows: Take a turntable with two arms, and a test record with a track containing steady tones and another containing tone bursts with loud transients (HFS 69 springs to mind), with one arm playing each track. What would happen to the steady tone's frequency as the second stylus encountered the tone bursts? I suspect a big difference would be seen in the stability of the steady tone between different turntables. Anyone got a suitable setup?
IMHO any belt driven TT should have a) a heavy platter & b) a quality electronic speed control to overcome the vagaries of the AC current. Then you are OK.
chris@panteg
12-07-2011, 09:29
IMHO any belt driven TT should have a) a heavy platter & b) a quality electronic speed control to overcome the vagaries of the AC current. Then you are OK.
Sure about that ? The Voyd has a lightweight acrylic or Lexan platter but with 3 motors , these provide the torque/inertia and the drive is very stable .
Need a good psu though.
hifi_dave
12-07-2011, 09:29
I have sold thousands and thousands of belt driven turntables over almost 40 years and I can't recall a single complaint about speed variations, wow, flutter or 'ability to accurately hold a note'.
They can't be all that bad.
chris@panteg
12-07-2011, 09:35
I have sold thousands and thousands of belt driven turntables over almost 40 years and I can't recall a single complaint about speed variations, wow, flutter or 'ability to accurately hold a note'.
They can't be all that bad.
Yes , but Dave is it because most listener's don't notice or the TT's are performing perfectly , some people are very sensitive to pitch variation, others (majority) are not ?
pure sound
12-07-2011, 10:22
My feeling is that the problem isn't the ability to hold a steady note, but rather what happens under dynamic conditions. The test I'd like to try runs as follows: Take a turntable with two arms, and a test record with a track containing steady tones and another containing tone bursts with loud transients (HFS 69 springs to mind), with one arm playing each track. What would happen to the steady tone's frequency as the second stylus encountered the tone bursts? I suspect a big difference would be seen in the stability of the steady tone between different turntables. Anyone got a suitable setup?
I have an SP10 with two arms that would do it. However it might be tricky to get 2 arms onto most conventionally suspended decks. The belt drive per se isn't the problem. The problem arises when you then introduce another compliance by suspending the platter/subchassis/arm/cartridge. Yes, you isolate all of that from the outside world and the motor noise but you also decouple it from the drive system.
For me, warp wow has always predominated, and I notice it even with relatively slight edge warps. Unfortunatly I have perfect pitch so am quite sensitive to absolute pitch and pitch flutter.
I guess that a sprung subchassis design will always be more susceptible to torque reaction in the suspension, or possibly rotation of the subchassis where the suspension allows any non-vertical movement in compression or extension. I understand that this is the most critcal element in setting up the suspension of certain scottish turntable, although I have never owned one. Compliance of the drive belt will always have an influence as well, and would cause interaction with the suspension potentially. Two drive motors might help with this with the right geometry.
I didn't notice wow with my previous townshend tt, but no suspension on these to twist.
Regards,
Alex
StanleyB
12-07-2011, 11:45
I have often wondered if some the speed differences were in fact down to the pressing. I once bought several copies of the same LPs. Each copy was picked up in different parts of the world. On playing the different pressings back I noticed variations in the speed at some points.
This made me wonder if variations in geometry, due to variations in pressing methods, was creating variations in the track lengths at certain spots.
I did a rough and unscientific test by comparing the length of time the same tracks took in playing across the various pressings. But the results were not conclusive enough.
I have quite a few records with 'wow' obviously cut into them (playing them on different decks over the years one knows when to listen out for it). People seldom stop to consider that many of the lathes used to cut their LPs were variable in quality, with some far better than others. Everytime you're listening to a record you're actually listening to wow x2 (your deck, plus the original cutting lathe for the LP in question). Since getting my SP-10 Mk.II it's really helped sort out the good pressings from the bad, though a tad depressing knowing there's nothing you can do about those with wow cut into them...
Hi,
I have noticed that quite a few LPs have poor centering of the spindle hole and together with warp wow and unstable lathes, I am used to quite a lot of my vinyl collection sounding a bit 'drunk'. These defects, at least to me, seem to cause more problems than dynamic or cyclic wow from the TT itself.
Back to Richard's question, I don't think that all belt drive TTs by definition have pitch accuracy problems per se, but any design that encourages or allows 'twisting' motion relative to the arm base as the suspension moves will tend to magnify dynamic wow and the effects of external excitation. I haven't ever really noticed this effect on a solid plinth design unless the belt or drive pully has problems. Turntables like the SME 20/30 avoid the CofG instability issues of the LP12 by means of putting the centre of mass under the suspension devices. SME also went to significant lengths to avoid non-vertical suspension movements, which I think is a big factor.
Cheers,
Alex
hifi_dave
12-07-2011, 17:14
Yes , but Dave is it because most listener's don't notice or the TT's are performing perfectly , some people are very sensitive to pitch variation, others (majority) are not ?
I was just pointing out that I have sold thousands of turntables in my life and can't recall anyone complaining about 'pitch' or variations of speed etc. So you'd think that out of that lot, someone would hear any problem.
I can remember two musician customers asking for tunrtables with variable speed to enable them to adjust the pitch but that is all
Disregarding wow, which can be a huge issue, the HARMONICS of bass notes especially can be an issue in the "tunes" dept I feel..
Take a vintage (pretty) goodie like the Technics SL150(0), Fit a cartridge it likes and listen without doing anything else. It sounds thick, clogged and the bass is stodgy tunelessness. Now, add some sorbothane feet (I use old large Audioquest ones under each foot) and remove the lid - instantly, the bass is far better defined, subtle timbre differences in playing are now audible and the whole thing seems to subjectively "swing" more IMO. Add an old Oracle" mat as I've done (Alex_UK has my Herbies/Tiumestep one with his Technics 1500) which also helps get the arm level and all of a sudden the deck leaps ahead sonically. It may not be anywhere near state-of-the-art, but the mixes seem to flesh out and separate, allowing more insight into the recording and methods of playing and production. If I want Linn style "boogie" with added (artificial?) reverb/ringing, I put on the Supex. If I want a more clinically correct (to the mastering session) sound, I'll go over to the V15 IV, which, like the sodding Goldring G800 (:D), does the layering and precision SO fugging well.
If I REALLY want to hear what's really there as originally mastered, I just put the Decca on and grin smugly from ear to ear :lol: Tunes, rhythm, prat factor - it's got it all and then some, with NO exaggeration anywhere - well mine is like that anyway ;)
I was just pointing out that I have sold thousands of turntables in my life and can't recall anyone complaining about 'pitch' or variations of speed etc. So you'd think that out of that lot, someone would hear any problem.
Hi Dave,
I think that it's largely down to one's available benchmark, and so I suspect that it was because most folk wouldn't have known any better (and thus what the difference was)....
There's no doubt to my ears that, in terms of uber-accurate speed stability (and its knock-on effect on pitch/timing accuracy), which to me are FUNDAMENTALLY important in terms of realistic music reproduction from vinyl, there's nothing to touch a quality direct-drive T/T.
To look at things from a different angle, Dave, how many of your customers who bought belt-drive T/Ts from you over the years, did so after having carried out a thorough A/B comparison in your dem room, against a quality direct-drive T/T, in order that they were able to make an informed choice between the two, in terms of which was more speed stable?
Isn't it more likely, as you mainly sold belt-drive T/Ts, that your customers simply compared different belt-drive T/Ts against each other, and so most wouldn't have been aware of the difference a quality direct-drive T/T brought to the party, in terms of speed stability/pitch accuracy? :)
As an aside, do you have a high-quality D/D turntable in your demo room currently, in order for your customers to compare it to the belt-drive turntables which you sell?
Marco.
One of the issues a turntable has to overcome is cartridge drag. This is quite variable and is the probarly the major cause of speed stabilty issues, a belt drive will also have to deal with the issues caused by the belt having a heavy platter helps with the stabilty.
One of the issues a turntable has to overcome is cartridge drag.
Yup - especially if, like me, you're using an SPU and tracking at 4.05g!! ;)
Dave (DSJR) has already touched on this point.
Marco.
hifi_dave
12-07-2011, 19:58
Hi Dave,
I think that it's largely down to one's available benchmark, and so I suspect that it was because most folk wouldn't have known any better (and thus what the difference was)....
There's no doubt to my ears that, in terms of uber-accurate speed stability (and its knock-on effect on pitch/timing accuracy), which to me are FUNDAMENTALLY important in terms of realistic music reproduction from vinyl, there's nothing to touch a quality direct-drive T/T.
To look at things from a different angle, Dave, how many of your customers who bought belt-drive T/Ts from you over the years, did so after having carried out a thorough A/B comparison in your dem room, against a quality direct-drive T/T, in order that they were able to make an informed choice between the two, in terms of which were more speed stable?
Isn't it more likely, as you mainly sold belt-drive T/Ts, that your customers simply compared different belt-drive T/Ts against each other, and so most wouldn't have been aware of the difference a quality direct-drive T/T brought to the party, in terms of speed stability/pitch accuracy? :)
As an aside, do you have a high-quality D/D turntable in your demo room currently, in order for your customers to compare it to the belt-drive turntables which you sell?
Marco.
Almost 40 years of selling turntables at the rate of 30 or so every week during the 70's and 80's, you'd think that someone/anyone would have made some comparisons and noticed if there was a problem. Wouldn't you ?
At one time we had probably 30 turntables and turntable/arm combinations on dem and yes, we had the occasional DD turntable. Of course, the majority of turntables would have been belt drive, because that is/was the main drive available.
I do have a vintage Technics DD turntable in my stock room and an SP10 (somewhere) in the loft but no modern DD turntable because they are not readily available to the UK retailer, even if I chose to stock one.
I am wondering if you are hinting that I have not listened to DD decks ? Well, that is not the case. In fact, at one time I was employed on a consultancy basis, by two important Japanese companies to test and report on their new DD turntables. Plus, as a reviewer for all but one of the mags at one time, I was often given DD turntables to audition. So, yes, I have heard many DD turntables.
Hi Dave,
Almost 40 years of selling turntables at the rate of 30 or so every week during the 70's and 80's, you'd think that someone/anyone would have made some comparisons and noticed if there was a problem. Wouldn't you ?
Perhaps so, but not necessarily; simply because, as you've said, direct-drive T/Ts weren't readily available on the British market. Therefore, I'd suspect that the majority of your customers wouldn't have had the opportunity to do a proper comparison.
I'm not saying that this was definitely the case; I'm merely offering it up as a *possible* explanation as to why you've sold thousands of turntables and can't recall anyone complaining about 'pitch' or variations of speed, etc.
After all, one may think that any fillet steak is the best, until one has tasted the finest mature Aberdeen Angus.... And so it is with turntables and speed stability or pitch accuracy: one's benchmark for excellence is only valid up until such time as it is superseded.... ;)
I am wondering if you are hinting that I have not listened to DD decks ? Well, that is not the case.
Nope, that’s not what I meant at all. I'm fully aware of your experience of T/Ts, Dave, and respect that. However, it wasn't your experience that was under scrutiny, but rather that of your customers.
Marco.
hifi_dave
12-07-2011, 20:49
Hi Dave,
Perhaps so, but not necessarily; simply because, as you've said, direct-drive T/Ts weren't readily available on the British market. Therefore, I'd suspect that the majority of your customers wouldn't have had the opportunity to have done a proper comparison.
I'm not saying that this was definitely the case; I'm merely offering it up as a *possible* explanation as to why you've sold thousands of turntables and can't recall anyone complaining about 'pitch' or variations of speed, etc.
After all, one may think that any fillet steak is the best, until one has tasted the finest mature Aberdeen Angus.... And so it is with turntables and speed stability or pitch accuracy: one's benchmark for excellence is only valid up until such time as it becomes superseded.... ;)
Nope, that’s not what I meant at all. I'm fully aware of your experience of T/Ts, Dave, and respect that. However, it wasn't your experience that was under scrutiny, but rather that of your customers.
Marco.
We did have DD's from time to time. Technics for a start, also JBE, Luxman, Yamaha and Micro Seiki but the majority were belt-drives. Of course, many customers auditioned turntables in other shops before and after coming to us, so they might well have heard other DD decks.
Perhaps any pitch issue upsets you more than the average listener because it doesn't appear to have troubled any customer I can remember. That or, maybe, it's because I stock only good turntables..:lol:
Lol - aye, righto! :eyebrows:
I'll definitely need to pop down to your place sometime soon, bring my Techy, and see whether YOU can hear the difference I'm referring to in comparison with your top Spacedeck, and/or any other belt-drive bobbins, that will lose royally... :lolsign:
Marco.
Hmmm... I can't help but think we are getting drawn into absolutes again here. Very much like the crossover thread, IMO it is all about implementation. As I've posted elsewhere this evening, two of the very best decks I've heard are Marco's Techie, and one of Dave's NAS decks - both of which were superb.
But regards the specifics of "a belt drive can't hold a note" which was the original question posed by the OP - well IME (limited, of course, but expanding!) there are plenty of belt driven turntables that absolutely CAN hold a note - in the same way that there are plenty of DD turntables that have speed stability issues even some of the Technics models. To say one drive system is absolutely better than the other is just too simplistic, IMO. Just my possibly naive view on it.
(Especially when we all know that an idler drive destroys both of them! ;) - joking, of course!)
Lol - nowt wrong with Garrards, dude! I can assure you though that I'm the last person here with an absolutist mentality ;)
I think it would be interesting to find out what Dave thought of my T/T, since to my knowledge, he's never heard a heavily-modded Techy, and so I'd value his opinion, particularly on whether he can hear where others and I are coming from, with regard to the thorny issue of speed stability/pitch accuracy... No reason why you couldn't tag along too, daftee, since it's near your manor! :cool:
Marco.
Lol - nowt wrong with Garrards, dude! I can assure you though that I'm the last person here with an absolutist mentality ;)
I think it would be interesting to find out what Dave thought of my T/T, since to my knowledge, he's never heard a heavily-modded Techy, and so I'd value his opinion, particularly on whether he can hear where others and I are coming from, with regard to the thorny issue of speed stability/pitch accuracy... No reason why you couldn't tag along, too, since it's near your manor! :cool:
Marco.
Indeed - it would certainly be interesting to compare the TT's, and if Dave is up for it some time I'd love to join in the fun, and we could possibly harang a couple of other locals along too. :)
hifi_dave
13-07-2011, 12:08
Lol - nowt wrong with Garrards, dude! I can assure you though that I'm the last person here with an absolutist mentality ;)
I think it would be interesting to find out what Dave thought of my T/T, since to my knowledge, he's never heard a heavily-modded Techy, and so I'd value his opinion, particularly on whether he can hear where others and I are coming from, with regard to the thorny issue of speed stability/pitch accuracy... No reason why you couldn't tag along too, daftee, since it's near your manor! :cool:
Marco.
Oh, I have heard heavily mod'd Techy's - I have an SP10 here somewhere and that's about as mod'd as they get.
Also, many years ago when you were at Nursery School, I was mod'ing Techy's and many other DD and belt drive decks. I was for ever playing around with bronze, graphite and various rubber mats, beefed up bearings, chassis/plinth damping and re-inforcement, various oils and all manner of other tweaks which got me a reputation as a 'nutter'...:rolleyes:
Not only that but when I was employed by a couple of manufacturers, they would send me several models at a time of the same turntable but with different platters, plinths, bearings etc. My job was to listen, observe, tweak and give them my opinions. Most of these were DD decks. So, I have had a bit of hands-on.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 12:19
Oh, I have heard heavily mod'd Techy's - I have an SP10 here somewhere and that's about as mod'd as they get.
Also, many years ago when you were at Nursery School, I was mod'ing Techy's and many other DD and belt drive decks. I was for ever playing around with bronze, graphite and various rubber mats, beefed up bearings, chassis/plinth damping and re-inforcement, various oils and all manner of other tweaks which got me a reputation as a 'nutter'...:rolleyes:
Not only that but when I was employed by a couple of manufacturers, they would send me several models at a time of the same turntable but with different platters, plinths, bearings etc. My job was to listen, observe, tweak and give them my opinions. Most of these were DD decks. So, I have had a bit of hands-on.
So if you know so much why don't you design and build something yourself instead of relying on selling other peoples products.
hifi_dave
13-07-2011, 12:55
I never said I knew so much. I merely played around, as so many enthusiasts do - Marco included.
hifi_dave
13-07-2011, 13:34
So if you know so much why don't you design and build something yourself instead of relying on selling other peoples products.
Isn't this what Mr.Dung himself often complains about ? Ad Hominen - talking about the person instead of the subject..:scratch:
Referring to Richard as "Mr Dung" doesn't help either, Dave ;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 13:52
Referring to Richard as "Mr Dung" doesn't help either, Dave ;)
Marco.
Its like a disease isn't it, one innocent question draws back insult.
I am purely (per usual) posting from my own viewpoint. If *I* had Hi-Fi Daves knowledge and had been used by so many manufacturers to do their job for them then I would have at least contemplated doing the damn thing myself. That would be the highest qualification you could have - product - to show the world your knowledge and skill.
Anyway it just proves the point again, it is pointless me posting here.
I think we just have to accept, Richard, that there are people here with whom you'll likely never see eye to eye. So simply pop in and out when you feel that you have something constructive to offer, which incidentally I see being more as giving advice to members, based on your relevant experience of a particular subject, than fruitless 'points scoring' against your 'adversaries'...... ;)
Oh, I have heard heavily mod'd Techy's - I have an SP10 here somewhere and that's about as mod'd as they get.
Respect for your experience with 'fettling' SP10s - I wish that I'd had the chance to do that, or rather listen to the results of someone else's efforts! :)
Thing is though, Dave, no SP10 I've heard to date (and I've listened to a few good ones over the years) sounds like my modded SL-1210. Quite simply, its sonic performance now comfortably exceeds that of any SP10 I've enjoyed listening to.
Therefore, I think my Techy would surprise you, and that listening to it would add to your already extensive experience of top-notch T/Ts....
So are you up for a sesh sometime before the end of the year? Apart from anything else, it would be good to meet up at long last! :cool:
Marco.
hifi_dave
13-07-2011, 14:13
Referring to Richard as "Mr Dung" doesn't help either, Dave ;)
Marco.
You probably won't believe me but that was a slip of the finger on keyboard. I never meant to type that and apologise. I was actually attempting to be polite in saying Mr.Dunn.
Anyway - ad hominen as he often complains about or not ?
Ok, cool. Can we just leave it there, please, as that subject is going nowhere useful, and answer my last post (#49)? Ta! :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 14:30
You probably won't believe me but that was a slip of the finger on keyboard. I never meant to type that and apologise. I was actually attempting to be polite in saying Mr.Dunn.
Anyway - ad hominen as he often complains about or not ?
Then you don't understand ad hominem, as the comment was on topic and a *reply* to your post singing your qualifications, so it *cannot be* ad hominem.
With that I am finished with it Marco, you can deal with any further comments without me joining in (even though I am the OP in this thread which implies reply rights in all forums I know of).
hifi_dave
13-07-2011, 14:32
I just get the impression that the "instead of relying on selling other peoples products" was intended as a put down, a sneer and going back to the usual old agenda. I was attempting to contribute to the thread and was subjected to personal comments. Something I don't get on other forums.
I wasn't saying that my SP10 ( if I still have it ) is mod'd or fettled - it isn't. It's a standard SP10 but I was attempting to say that it is like a grown up , hot-rodded, no expense spared 1210.
I'm not certain if I still have it as, when I shut my last shop, a lot of things went missing and I've a suspicion that the SP10 was one of those. Having said that, I've recently uncovered a NOS Oracle Mk.2/Sumiko 'The Arm'/Koetsu Rosewood that I thought had gone walkies. Hopefully, the SP10 will turn up.
PS. Just spotted "singing your qualifications" What's that about ?
With that I am finished with it Marco, you can deal with any further comments without me joining in (even though I am the OP in this thread which implies reply rights in all forums I know of).
No worries, Richard. That's your decision. You're always free to participate whenever you wish :)
Like you said on your site, at least you and I are no longer enemies, and for that, I'm grateful :cool:
Marco.
]I wasn't saying that my SP10 ( if I still have it ) is mod'd or fettled - it isn't. It's a standard SP10 but I was attempting to say that it is like a grown up , hot-rodded, no expense spared 1210.
I suppose you could look at it that way. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that a stock SP10 is going to sound the same or as good as a heavily modded SL-1210, like for example, Martin's or mine! ;)
And indeed experience tells me it doesn't........
I'm not certain if I still have it as, when I shut my last shop, a lot of things went missing and I've a suspicion that the SP10 was one of those. Having said that, I've recently uncovered a NOS Oracle Mk.2/Sumiko 'The Arm'/Koetsu Rosewood that I thought had gone walkies. Hopefully, the SP10 will turn up.
I hope it does, too... So are you up for a sesh or not? I think you'd find it rather enlightening. I did ask before, but was met with silence! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 14:42
I just get the impression that the "instead of relying on selling other peoples products" was intended as a put down, a sneer and going back to the usual old agenda. I was attempting to contribute to the thread and was subjected to personal comments. Something I don't get on other forums.
I wasn't saying that my SP10 ( if I still have it ) is mod'd or fettled - it isn't. It's a standard SP10 but I was attempting to say that it is like a grown up , hot-rodded, no expense spared 1210.
I'm not certain if I still have it as, when I shut my last shop, a lot of things went missing and I've a suspicion that the SP10 was one of those. Having said that, I've recently uncovered a NOS Oracle Mk.2/Sumiko 'The Arm'/Koetsu Rosewood that I thought had gone walkies. Hopefully, the SP10 will turn up.
PS. Just spotted "singing your qualifications" What's that about ?
OK one more for luck - there was *no* implied insult to you, as I said in my earlier post, I was talking from my viewpoint. If *I* had that amount of knowledge and experience I would have put it to use in creating something that pushed the state of the art on further as have all these enthusiasts and bodgers (affectionate term) who have put their time and money in to push the 1210 into the product it is now. They didn't say, "well I know all about it, I could do it" they did it - so they have the qualification in the argument. Plus you have even greater oportunity than them having the name and the reputation, and the outlet for any product. As I say, that is what *I* would do in your place.
Singing your qualifications is an English expression that implies that perhaps you are putting too much importance on them, it is very mild comment. I sing my qualifications all the time :eyebrows:
I never had the nous to start my own business, although I did consider it at one time...
The OP was about turntables holding a tune and my previous post was about how some turntables, despite having good speed stability, can mess around (seemingly) with the tiny stylus movements and smear things up.
The Linn LP12 at the time, seemed to juggle its undoubted compromises into enhancing, if anything, the sense of "tunefulness" in the recordings it played, real life not always being so "charming." Similarly, Linn's electronics of old seemed to enhance the rhythmic aspects too much, either by adding significant distortions (LK280 and Intek are prime examples), or modifying the signal in some way, the whole when the two were added together seeming to form a rather botched version of "reality." I HAVE heard a modern LP12 sound pitch-stable and dynamically "clean," so I know the basic design and engineering is fine, it's just the current pricing structure in these austere times which grates now.
As regards the Techie decks, the basic traditional measurements of noise/rumble, wow & flutter, together with dynamic wow, have never been an issue with their top-line models, the main issues being with resonance and feedback. Both these latter issues have a dramatic effect I feel on the WAY that pitch is perceived, especially on string bass instruments which can appear to have all sorts of tuning issues where what is actually happening is deliberate pitch-bending by the musician, these effects not always being heard by the listener correctly.. I do feel that this is a long standing issue with many of the mass-loaded revered heavyweights that were slagged off by the UK press in the late 70's and 80's, as AT THE TIME, so many of them sounded turgid and bland as supplied.
Marco, during the mid 70's, direct drive all but took over the market, the likes of Thorens looking rather old-fashioned and also, many 301's, 401's and relatives left their first owners at around this time, as the direct-driven invasion were so much quieter - as perceived then. The LP12 and RD11 were judged scrappy and badly finished at the time, and not always reliable either. Ivor's perseverance and bullishness eventually won the day and the rest is history of one version or another. The negative press on many direct drives was almost always due to isolation difficulties clouding the bass region, rather than anything else. Remember, we didn't have Isonoe feet or really fancy mats back then.
Just my tuppence worth...
All very relevant, mate :)
Sadly though, your pal and namesake appears to be blanking my proposal for a T/T bake-off, which I'm sure would be educational for all concerned.... Why, I've no idea :(
Marco.
hifi_dave
13-07-2011, 17:57
I wanted to get this nastiness out of the way first.
A visit can be arranged, some time later this year. At the present time though, I'm so busy I don't know which way to turn. It's not all Hi-Fi, to be honest, as that is 10% of what I do and a further complication is that we are in the process of extending the barn I work from. That is going to disrupt business and dems for a few months. After that, why not ?
Well worth the wait, as Dave'll have all the space he needs to show off all the vintage gear he's been buying and rediscovering :)
:thumbsup:
Sounds like a fab day! :)
Indeed - so let's thrash out some provisional dates. Which month would suit you guys best, presuming you'd (hopefully) be coming, Alex? :cool:
Marco.
I'm pretty easy - only a day so I can fit in what's best with everyone else.
Ok, September would be good for me - from that we can agree on what day in the month suits best... I guess we're talking about a weekend? :)
Marco.
Ok, September would be good for me - from that we can agree on what day in the month suits best... I guess we're talking about a weekend? :)
Marco.
Whatever's best for Dave (hifi) and other Dave (DSJR) if he can make it - if it's a weekend then I can only do 3rd/4th & 10th/11th - happy to take a day off if the week is best for everyone else.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 20:34
I wanted to get this nastiness out of the way first.
A visit can be arranged, some time later this year. At the present time though, I'm so busy I don't know which way to turn. It's not all Hi-Fi, to be honest, as that is 10% of what I do and a further complication is that we are in the process of extending the barn I work from. That is going to disrupt business and dems for a few months. After that, why not ?
I am sorry to dissolution you but the only nastiness came from you. Anyway I am very willing to make peace even with someone who calls me a shit heap. So I would love to attend as well and bring my Pioneer PL-71 / SPU gold and phono stage. Epping to Saffron Walden is just a fairly short run up the old A11 on the way to Cambridge.
I am sorry to dissolution you....
Lol! Richard, sorry for laughing, but that's a classic! Are you sure that you're not related to Del Boy Trotter? :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 21:14
Lol! Richard, sorry for laughing, but that's a classic! Are you sure that you're not related to Del Boy Trotter? :eyebrows:;)
Marco.
Obviously it is disillusion, but I thought it might give someone a giggle. Look what Henry VIII did to the monasteries, some say I want to do it to hi-fi retailers :lol:
Hehehehe.... No doubt you speak fluent French too, mange tout, mange tout! :lolsign:
Marco.
And watch out leaning on a bar with your Filofax in hand Richard! :lol:
_IBgk05iL3Y
(Sorry, any excuse to post one of comedies finest moments ever!)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 21:51
Hehehehe.... No doubt you speak fluent French too, mange tout, mange tout! :lolsign:
Marco.
I type fast so I rely on a spell checker, this is what it gave me as I obviously goofed the word. When I post I recheck and correct for obvious punctuation or anyfink (sic) else and edit. I thought it looked wrong until I checked the word and it made laugh so I left it up, blame my spoell chucker.
My posts could get hilarious before I started using the spellchecker a year or so ago.
Sorry, regarding frog I never got out of the tadpole stage.
Lo, Alex - classic! Was that the one where he also orders a bottle of 'Beaujolais Nouveau' 1963 (or something?) :lol:
Marco.
And watch out leaning on a bar with your Filofax in hand Richard!
I think that moment is one of the funniest in British comedy, together with this one.... for me anyway ;)
Cz2-ukrd2VQ
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
13-07-2011, 22:07
Nah this is best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxQqWSnsHoA
Just spotted the link to this one too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pujXTj4X_I4&NR=1
The Grand Wazoo
13-07-2011, 22:55
Nah this is best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxQqWSnsHoA
Just spotted the link to this one too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pujXTj4X_I4&NR=1
The second time that clip has been linked to on AoS today!
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=233674&postcount=17
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