View Full Version : This thread won't make me popular (and may even get me banned!)
Ok folks, someone has got to say what we're all thinking...? AoS has gone right off the boil the last few weeks. Sorry if you don't agree, (and I doubt many people will get to read this thread before it gets deleted) but there you go! ;)
Well, of course it goes without saying that all of the following observations are "IMHO" - and please can I make it absolutely clear that whilst there is "mod" in my title, the only thing I moderate is the AoS Facebook and Spotify pages, and nothing to do with the forum apart from the music section, where I've had a non-existent need to do any moderation! These thoughts are mine, and mine alone.
So, where do I start? Well, in the interests of trying to keep this constructive and to quote an old favourite "playing the ball not the man" I shall avoid mentioning names. However I doubt you will need to be Einstein to work it out... ;)
OK, well if you've been banned from every forum in Christendom, and you suddenly get an opportunity to return to a well established one, it would make sense to settle yourself in gently, get to know the natives, and tread carefully, no? Blundering in with an obnoxious attitude and creating conflict at every opportunity would not be the most sensible approach, if it was me. But then, I don't have an agenda, or a product line to promote, do I?
And then we have the "tedious" (I borrowed the word from a fellow forum member with whom I have been discussing these issues - and believe me - there are many... has anyone noticed how many stalwarts have suddenly disappeared off the radar - either completely or partially?) "let's post a load of new threads with links" approach... OK, so some of the subjects may be of interest, but blitzing the forum with attention grabbing headlines dilutes those topics that are of real interest (remember, dear reader - all IMHO... ;)) and it is easy to slip one in that plays to one's own agenda...
And the straw that will surely break the camel's back (well mine, at any rate) is that now we have endless circular debates (again!) on cables and their virtues (or not) and whether the fact that you or the cables are sprinkled with the dust from an Elf's scrotum make them sound better or not... (apologies for belittling the subject, but trust me, if you've read every post on AoS for the last month or so like I have you too would be at the end of your tether...)
Marco - I appreciate as a guest in your "house" this is very rude and improper of me - however, I don't doubt that "knowing" me as you do, you will appreciate that I have not made this post lightly, and nor is it done with any malice whatsoever. For almost 2 years I have logged on to AoS every day, and on each of those days, felt the desire to get involved with the community, either to offer some guidance if I can (rarely! ;)) or otherwise join in the fun. The past few weeks, I have not felt the same compulsion.
It could be me. Maybe I'm approaching the menopause... On the other hand, it could be the way the forum has evolved in the past few weeks...
You decide.
Hi Alex,
Nope, it's not rude of you at all, mate, so don't worry about it. We don't gag people here, certainly least of all our regulars, so you're entitled to express any concerns you have.
I'm a little disappointed that you think I'd delete the thread (or even ban you - perish the thought!!) It's not as if we've got a history of not letting people speak their minds!
What do others think about the points Alex has raised? And here I would appreciate it in particular if the "many forum members", whom Alex has been discussing these issues with in private, came forward.
One thing I HATE are people who 'bitch' in private, but don't have the balls, like Alex has, to confront the members of the management team who can do something about the problems they see. I don't like gossips, so speak up, folks!!
I'm a little busy just now, but of course have my own thoughts on the matter, and will comment later :)
Just one quick point, other than Andre and John (Welder), whom I know about, who are you referring to here:
has anyone noticed how many stalwarts have suddenly disappeared off the radar...
In the meantime, I'll move this discussion into Critics Corner, where it belongs.
Marco.
I don't disagree with Alex I'm afraid and now find myself almost sidelined when I now have the time to lurk a bit more. No worries, things change and evolve, but there are fewer threads these days to get my teeth into I find, and I've lost the will to argue..
No doubt things will change again, so I won't go away ;)
Thing Fish
24-06-2011, 22:41
I think you make some valid points Alex. That said iv'e not been here that long so don't have a complete handle on things as yet.
I still enjoy reading the odd spat but sometimes it can be tedious when its obvious neither party is going to back down.
I have only had the need to use the ignore function once on this forum which is a shame as its the only time I have used such a beast on any forum I have ever belonged to but it does the job so hey ho.
I think you need a rather large glass of fortified grape and perhaps breakout that Neil Sedaka record that you keep hidden...;)
I'm a little disappointed that you think I'd delete the thread (or even ban you - perish the thought!!) It's not as if we've got a history of not letting people speak their minds!
You have every right to be disappointed, and I apologise for that. Your points are all 100% valid. With hindsight (forgive me, I'm cutting down on the drink, but tonight has been an exception!) I should have raised this privately with you.
But seeing as it is "out there" now:
What do others think about the points Alex has raised?
Just one quick point, other than Andre and John (Welder), whom I know about, who are you referring to here:
I don't think it is fair for me to put words in other people's mouths - they now have an opportunity to speak up - or forever hold their peace!
Can't find my piece, it shrivelled up decades ago :D
Oh, you mean PEACE :lol:
I'm only referring to the "stalwarts", Alex, you claim have "disappeared". Obviously if they've disappeared, they're not in a position to speak for themselves. Other than John and Andre, I can't think of any...... :scratch:
Marco.
Jac Hawk
25-06-2011, 02:48
I've noticed a slow down on the forum of late, dave hit the nail on the hard when he said there was a lack of new threads at the moment, i've not been here all that long so don't know what it was like last summer, personally i put the slowing of the forum down to good weather and holidays, and guess it will pick up again once the weather changes and the kids are back to school.
With regards to Alex's observations about a certain member 'blitzing the forum with threads' containing nothing more than a couple of words and a link, is bang on too, true some of them are interesting, but i don't come to the AoS to chew the fat about something that's in the paper or on the news, unless it is either linked to music or hifi in some way, in my opinion if you've got something to say not music or hifi related, the topic should have some significance to you, and you should explain the link in the thread other wise it's just news.
Finally with regards to members that have disappeared, apart from the 2 guys mentioned earlier in the thread, i haven't seen 'magicarpetride' for a while, i didn't always see eye to eye with him but he was passionate about his hifi and music, which came out in what he posted on the forum. what he came out with sometimes would boil my piss but i always enjoyed reading his posts.
If anyone is on the outside looking in on AoS it could sometimes be perceived that it is a cosy little club for the regulars, almost having a pint and a game of dominoes every night. I did lurk for a while before I joined and that was the impression I got.
Whether it is beneficial to the forum or not, there has been some lively characters joined of late and commensurate with that, some lively postings which has spilled a glass or two of beer and scattered the dominoes in the process and maybe that is what Alex is alluding to and noting the absence of just 2 members reinforces that perception methinks.
Yes the forum has livened up lately which is no bad thing in my view. Cables, shmables, a robust discussion about same isn't JUST between the combatants because an awful lot of people read what is written, draw their own conclusions and they might learn something from it along the way. The key to that being successful or otherwise is Marco who in my opinion handles it all very well with an iron fist in a velvet glove and when he does step in it is with reasoned argument, unlike other forums where posts and entire threads get deleted without warning, people drop in and out of favour, cliques get formed and people get banned or just disappear. AoS is a long way off that - thankfully.
WOStantonCS100
25-06-2011, 05:22
I really haven't been here long enough to comment on too much of this other than maybe this point, which I completely agree with.
And then we have the "tedious" ... "let's post a load of new threads with links" approach... OK, so some of the subjects may be of interest, but blitzing the forum with attention grabbing headlines dilutes those topics that are of real interest...
I do take note of whether one is a trade member or not. I don't much like "a sales pitch at every turn"; however, I realize the importance of trade member input. Though to me, a trade member who actually produces a product, rather than just sells/distributes one, automatically gets more of my attention on appropriate subjects. This is not to say that I feel trade members should only be restricted to "Trade Impressions" or don't have any credible, important and/or viable points to make; because, certainly they do and continue to, especially when posts directly reference them or their products. Perhaps, maybe just the sales angles could be kept in "Trade Impressions". Just my observations...
I'm also too new here to know who's missing; hope I my usual antics haven't contributed to anyone running off.
For what ever reason the forum has been a little slow but not slower than last summer.
I think your just noticing a trade guy more because he posts something every day.
Why I have no Idea but there is always another thread so you feel bombarded by them.
When things get rolling again you won't notice so much.
I do get where Alex is coming from.
Some posts have even been dumber than mine...
Links to tripe really!
Werner Berghofer
25-06-2011, 07:20
What do others think about the points Alex has raised?
I fully agree with him. For the first time ever (my experience with computer based communication systems dates back to the year 1987) I recently felt the need to use this forum’s ignore list, but unfortunately the thread title still is shown, although the thread’s creator is member of an ignore list.
If I want to read the latest news or gossip, I certainly know which websites to visit. There are other things and topics I expect to find in a meeting place called “The Art of Sound”.
Personally I don’t see the need for user names, pseudonyms and alias names, but that’s a different topic. I’ve always been posting using my real name, and if I attempted to write something which might not be wise signing with my real name, it might not be worth to be said anyway.
Werner.
Perhaps I should resurrect the "Latest marvel" thread as I now have an original good Goldring G800 to listen to :eek:
Very well put Werner and I too have never used a forum's ignore list before, now I've got more than one on there!
What do others think about the points Alex has raised?
To be honest I agree 100% with Alex. I don't feel that qualified to comment being relatively new here, but I really liked the vibe of AoS when I arrived and I think that was down to the 'pint and dominoes' feel that Frank describes. People using first names and not bitch slapping each other all the time was a real eye opener for me, so I drew a pint myself and sat down at the table. I learned a lot too, even though a lot of the subject matter was above me, I still read all the posts and came to respect the core memberships level of knowledge and their willingness to share and help others. Quite unique compared to other forums.
Personally that's how I liked it, but of late that cosy feeling seems to have gone and seeing people I respect leave or remain silent has only added fuel to the fire. There is always an ebb and flow on forums, but the final straw for me was seeing a personal message published - how disrespectful is that and most of us I'm sure will realise who the author was. And to use it as a means of trying to defend one's own poor behaviour . . . . :rolleyes:
I guess a lot of forum folk like conflict and 'lively' discussion with robustly defended argument, but there is a fine line between that and the insults.
Anyway, I'm off to play some music, life's too short.
Tim
But then, I don't have an agenda, or a product line to promote, do I?
Funny that i typed the exact same words then deleted it in my reply after being labled a sheep, trying to be ironic i don't think so
I don't really see why i have to answer myself to someone who clearly gets pleasure from comfrontation, i have tried but can't really be arsed
I'm off to burn in my new Belkin speaker cables with the rest of the flock.
As Tim Says lifes to short,
hifi_dave
25-06-2011, 09:49
I joined AOS because it is/was a friendly, civilised, informative place to be but recently it has become too confrontational and aggressive for me. I am now wary of where and what I post and I'm visiting less and less.
Personally that's how I liked it, but of late that cosy feeling seems to have gone and seeing people I respect leave or remain silent has only added fuel to the fire. There is always an ebb and flow on forums, but the final straw for me was seeing a personal message published - how disrespectful is that and most of us I'm sure will realise who the author was. And to use it as a means of trying to defend one's own poor behaviour . . . . :rolleyes:
I guess a lot of forum folk like conflict and 'lively' discussion with robustly defended argument, but there is a fine line between that and the insults.
Tim
People may be silent because they may be busy or away on holiday and not unusual during the summer months.
That cosy atmosphere isn't wrong if we were talking about a private club with membership entry, but it does say "Forum" over the door so it kinda goes with the territory that in addition to new welcome posters you are just as likely to acquire unwelcome posters - people like me for example :lol:
I like an exchange of views and opinions as much as the next man and if they border on being a tad robust then it doesn't bother me provided it is kept to the subject matter without resorting to name calling and insinuation. It is when the traffic becomes one way only, or when I present valid points and people respond with their own dogma, or worse still, they ignore my postings because it directly conflicts with their view which rubs me up the wrong way - as it does many others.
Once again, I will applaud Marco and the other mods that hold the forum helm on a true course. On another forum I used to frequent the "owner" treats it as his own personal playground these days and cares not one jot for anyone he offends or insults, so little wonder the regulars are seeking pastures new. A forum like that already has the writing on the wall, but if AoS keeps a firm grip on it's ethos, it will prosper and flourish.
I joined AOS because it is/was a friendly, civilised, informative place to be but recently it has become too confrontational and aggressive for me. I am now wary of where and what I post and I'm visiting less and less.
I'm sorry to say this Dave but in pure truth it is people like you that make the forum what it is, so by being reticent and wary of posting, or not visiting, you are in effect letting in the elements you don't want to find on the forum. Sort of self prophecy really and in a perverse way you are also saying the mods cannot control this forum - very far from the reality.
Exactly, Frank (your previous post was particularly spot on), although I do value Dave's input.
Guys,
I'm going to lock this thread temporarily until I compose a suitable reply, as otherwise, by the time I type it, the discussion will have gone off in another direction again.
I appreciate your input, and rest assured, your points will be taken on board.
However, in the meantime, I'll leave you with a snippet of what Frank wrote, which is I feel hits the nail on the head:
That cosy atmosphere isn't wrong if we were talking about a private club with membership entry, but it does say "Forum" over the door so it kinda goes with the territory that in addition to new welcome posters you are just as likely to acquire unwelcome posters...
Do you want AoS simply to be a clique, merely containing all our of YOUR buddies, or an open community, full of all sorts of different personalities, some you may not like, just like in real life........? Communities in real life do not always conform to our perfect ideals, and neither do those on forums.....
I'll leave you with that thought, and will now compose my proper reply. The thread will be reopened for your responses once I've done that :)
Marco.
Before I deal with the above issue, let's tackle the subject of 'robust debates', where again, Frank hits the nail on the head:
I like an exchange of views and opinions as much as the next man and if they border on being a tad robust then it doesn't bother me provided it is kept to the subject matter without resorting to name calling and insinuation.
That is the crux of the matter. Interesting, meaty, in-depth, thought-provoking debates, where those with opposing viewpoints challenge each other robustly, but respectfully, are precisely what we want on AoS.
Now I acknowledge that some people on the (now locked) cable debate on occasions went a little beyond that, and I'll tackle this in a minute, but such debates are part and parcel of forum life, so if you choose to participate in a lively forum, such as AoS, then you really need to have a thick enough skin to cope!
I agree that some cable debates are repetitive and tedious, as is the objectivist vs. subjectivist thing, but unfortunately these are popular topics which are destined to pop up now and then, so do we just simply ban them and stifle creative discussion, or allow them, but manage them properly?
On AoS, we will always take the latter route, as allowing people to express their opinion, and freely discuss what subjects they want to discuss, within the boundaries of our ethos, is a core part of what we stand for, and I'm sorry, but we will not stop that from being the case simply because a few of you sensitive souls don't like reading certain threads, where there is a little bit of 'rough & tumble' going on.
I'm afraid that it's been said time and time again, but if there are discussions you don't like, then, quite simply, don't read them! *That*, I’m afraid, is the only acceptable course of action, because by the very nature of life itself, there are always going to be things that you don't like, and the contents of on-line communities like AoS, are no exception.
You can't expect AoS to become some notion of your ideal world. Or consider it justified to simply participate in our community as a form of escapism from your humdrum existence (should that apply): your own personal therapy centre, if you will. That is not why we gave birth to AoS, or what we see as a vision for its future. It is also rather selfish to expect AoS to cater only for your specific needs, and if something doesn't fit in with that notion, then it is wrong.
It's also up to you to have enough self-discipline to simply ignore what doesn't interest you. Do you think I enjoy the content of every single thread and post which is written here? Of course not, there are significant sections of the forum I rarely read, simply because the subjects are not to my interest. There are also certain people I warm to more than others, and folk who on occasions wind me up.
But do you see me imposing those feelings upon the forum in any way, by moderating those who wind me up, stifling discussions and controlling them so that they conform to my beliefs, or allowing any negative feelings to affect my enjoyment of participating in the discussions which interest me? If I did that, what would AoS be like?
No, I simply let people be themselves and get on with it in their own way, providing that everyone is behaving in accordance with the guidelines we have set, and concentrate instead in participating in the discussions that are of interest to me.
If the forum is going through an uninteresting or 'difficult' phase for you, then give it a break and go and listen to some music, take your wife out for a meal, or play with the kids or whatever, until things are different. By their very nature, forums evolve and change, so you have to accept that some of the ways that they will change may not align with your sensibilities. I'm afraid that's just life, people!
Oh, and one thing, instead of moaning when there aren't any threads of interest to you, start some which are! The problem sometimes with forums is that there are too many lazy buggers who simply like to read what others write, and not contribute themselves.... Always remember that, in terms of its content, the forum will always only be what you make it!!
Ok, regarding Richard and Howard.....
I think that the message is coming home loud and clear that many of you are pissed off with Howard's one-line threads linking to eBay, or newspapers, and such like. I agree that it's littering up the forum a little and that there is some motivation for self-gain in his reasons for doing so, therefore I will ask Howard to stop. And being the reasonable chap that he is, I'm sure he will do as asked and concentrate on contributing to the forum in other ways.
As for Richard, well, your points have been duly noted, and some of them are justified. What you should remember, however, is that when Richard came here, he was carrying a lot of 'baggage' from his past and from his experiences on other forums, where rightly or wrongly, he was always seen as the bad guy, and attacked according for it by all and sundry.
Now, yes, some of that was of his own doing, as I'm sure he'll be the first to admit that he can be a prickly character; and so when he was allowed back to AoS, he didn't really take into consideration that things are different here, and that no-one was 'out to get him'. Therefore, he came prepared to have the usual conflicts, and thus brought with him a defensive and confrontational attitude.
However, as he's settled in more and got to know people better, he's began to soften his stance and integrate better into our community. I can see a definite change in him, and he has made some interesting and thought-provoking contributions, albeit some of a controversial nature, but that in my opinion, as Frank has alluded to, is what keeps things interesting.
Richard is a strong and opinionated character, and there are those who will love him or loathe him for that, but with his extensive experience in the industry and knowledge as an established audio designer, he has much to offer to AoS. Therefore I would ask that you allow him to do that, and try to accept Richard for who he is. Not everyone will like him, but hey, do you always like your next door neighbour? And if you don’t, do you move away or try to get on? I see that very much like the situation we have here at the moment.
I will of course ask Richard to reciprocate and try and gradually leave his old self behind, and lose the propensity to be 'difficult'. But you can't expect someone to change their personality overnight - in fact it would be totally unrealistic to do so; the integration has to be a gradual process. So let's give him a chance, guys, eh?
Now, I would direct you to the contents of my previous post, and welcome your thoughts on that, and also on the rest of what I have just written :)
Marco.
Jac Hawk
25-06-2011, 13:18
Nice one Marco;) all i can add is that everyone should treat their follow members with the respect they would hope to get in return, it's not rocket science people:cool:
Thanks Marco, for a reasoned and well written summary.
The first point I would like to add, is that in no way was I trying to organise a witch hunt or lynch mob, or otherwise drive Howard or Richard out of town...
Howard - IMO I don't think there is any need for you to stop posting your links and news items - I would just suggest that you don't start a new thread every time. We have a "Balderdash & Piffle" thread, which does what it says on the tin, or maybe you could start a "Howards Musings" thread and then add the posts there, keeping them all in the same place.
Richard - Marco has made some very valid points in your defence above, and as I said above I have no desire to drive you or anyone away from the forum - but the fact remains that whether you realise it or not, you do rub people up the wrong way sometimes. So please, and without wishing to be rude "wind your neck in a little" - I think it is fair to say (as Marco has said) that matters have "improved" - and I'm certainly in no position to judge anyone, but when I see some of the people you've had "spats" with and know that they are the least likely people to get aggressive, then the common denominator has to be a factor...
And whilst I appreciate you have strong views on the industry and will have forgotten more than I will ever know about it, I am sure I am not alone in finding the frequent "pops" at retailers, magazines and other manufacturers to be rather tiresome - we know how you feel about them, so there's no need to keep banging on about it - please? It's all about respect at the end of the day.
The only reason I raised this is because I care about AoS, and the community that it has become, and rather than just fade away and watch others do the same I thought it right to air the issues, and hopefully we can all agree to try and take this forum back in the right direction.
...providing that you thought it wasn't going pretty well in the right direction in the first place, albeit very slightly off track. Let's keep things in perspective, folks - there is no 'crisis' here! ;)
Points taken, Alex. I will comment more after lunch :)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 14:18
And whilst I appreciate you have strong views on the industry and will have forgotten more than I will ever know about it, I am sure I am not alone in finding the frequent "pops" at retailers, magazines and other manufacturers to be rather tiresome - we know how you feel about them, so there's no need to keep banging on about it - please? It's all about respect at the end of the day.
Between them they ruined our industry for a large number of years, which we are only just now breaking completely free from.
So no I will not ignore the reality we had to put up with in the 80's and 90's. As a customer you had little or no choice but to follow as there were no alternative courses, and everyone had to follow the rules if they wished to trade. It is a different world now and I am commenting on it plus drawing attention to how it was so we don't go back or just find a replacement bullshit.
There are many others who feel exactly the same as me about it, but are just not so vociferous.
Indeed Richard, I've read your opinion of the past several times and certainly never expect you will change it - backfired on me though, didn't it - as I've just given you the perfect opportunity to tell us all again! :lol:
So no I will not ignore the reality we had to put up with in the 80's and 90's. As a customer you had little or no choice but to follow as there were no alternative courses, and everyone had to follow the rules if they wished to trade. It is a different world now and I am commenting on it plus drawing attention to how it was so we don't go back or just find a replacement bullshit.
There are many others who feel exactly the same as me about it, but are just not so vociferous.
That's fine, Richard, but don't allow it to become an all-encompassing obsession, that's all, which I think is all Alex is saying :)
You must appreciate that most folks here aren't as 'into' this subject as much as you are, for various reasons, and so repeated reference to it can come across rather as a 'broken record'.....
Anyway, is there nothing else you wish to say about what's been written here in reference to you?
Marco.
jandl100
25-06-2011, 15:18
Well done Alex, for bravely raising an issue about which you care a lot.
Howard - IMO I don't think there is any need for you to stop posting your links and news items - I would just suggest that you don't start a new thread every time. We have a "Balderdash & Piffle" thread, which does what it says on the tin, or maybe you could start a "Howards Musings" thread and then add the posts there, keeping them all in the same place.
I get the feeling that Howard is seeking a rather higher profile on the forum than merely joining in on a general "Balderdash & Piffle" thread, but a "Howard's Musings" thread seems an excellent way ahead to me. :)
Richard - ... please, and without wishing to be rude "wind your neck in a little" ....
Part of the trouble here imo is that RD is passionate about, and has a huge chip on his shoulder about, genuinely nasty stuff that is ancient history to many posters here (like Young Alex!). They were probably in their nappies, or still a sparkle in their parents' eyes when it was all happening.
By all means, Richard, let the lessons learned from those unfortunate times inform your views and your postings, but as Alex said, you have just used this thread to have yet another tedious rant. :rolleyes: Get a grip, man, the record is well and truly stuck! :)
With regard to RD's confrontational nature - I got a huge shock when I actually met him after he kindly invited me over. I was expecting a stooped, grey haired, grouchy old geezer with a permament scowl. Not so! In person, he is most pleasant indeed ... and he probably wishes he did have grey hair - better than no hair at all? :lol:
Anyways, if RD could act on the forums more like his real life persona, everyone here would be happier, I reckon. :)
Part of the trouble here imo is that RD is passionate about, and has a huge chip on his shoulder about, genuinely nasty stuff that is ancient history to many posters here (like Young Alex!). They were probably in their nappies, or still a sparkle in their parents' eyes when it was all happening.
Indeed! I was only in primary school when most of that stuff was going on, so although I know of it from reading the history from various sources, I can't really relate to it in the way Richard and some of the older chaps here can.
You really need to be 50+, in order for that stuff to have been properly 'in your zone' :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
25-06-2011, 17:27
Thing is, it wasn't like that for everyone. It's one man's opinion.
As a dealer in those times, we were never, ever told what to do, what to sell, how much to sell or anything like that. I'm sure it might have happened with some dealers but not with us or other dealers I know.
In those heady days, we demo'd everything we sold and everything sold on it's merit. We kept a wide range of products on demonstration including many Linn alternatives, DD decks (yes) and even valve amps. We were never dictated to by Linn and sold what we liked without interference.
That's the way it was for us and that is the way it is now. I sell what I like.
And that is one of the problems I have with shooting down a whole portion of any industry - tarring everyone with the same brush is unfair, in almost any situation. There are good and bad in everything.
jandl100
25-06-2011, 18:13
That's a seriously sweet-looking daughter you've got in your new avatar, Alex. :)
That's a seriously sweet-looking daughter you've got in your new avatar, Alex. :)
Thanks Jerry. :)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 18:19
That's fine, Richard, but don't allow it to become an all-encompassing obsession, that's all, which I think is all Alex is saying :)
You must appreciate that most folks here aren't as 'into' this subject as much as you are, for various reasons, and so repeated reference to it can come across rather as a 'broken record'.....
Anyway, is there nothing else you wish to say about what's been written here in reference to you?
Marco.
Well you are strongly into part of it, but yours only reflects the part the Linn LP12 and to a degree the Rega played in it, and you are as persistent with it as I am.
Reid Malenfant
25-06-2011, 18:30
Well done for sticking your neck out & not getting your head severed Alex ;)
I don't think i have much to say other than i don't like getting into a fracus & certainly won't be going out of my way to get drawn into another one :)
My apologies if i have done anything to lessen your enjoyment of the forum! I know you weren't directing things at me personally, but i guess i do feel a bit guilty as i was certainly in the thick of it at one point.
Nuff said :cool:
Jac Hawk
25-06-2011, 18:44
Thing is, it wasn't like that for everyone. It's one man's opinion.
As a dealer in those times, we were never, ever told what to do, what to sell, how much to sell or anything like that. I'm sure it might have happened with some dealers but not with us or other dealers I know.
In those heady days, we demo'd everything we sold and everything sold on it's merit. We kept a wide range of products on demonstration including many Linn alternatives, DD decks (yes) and even valve amps. We were never dictated to by Linn and sold what we liked without interference.
That's the way it was for us and that is the way it is now. I sell what I like.
The hifi dealers in my town were like that too Dave, where i grew up in Darlington there were 2 main Hi-Fi shops for the enthusiast Mackena & Brown and Gibson Audio, i remember going to both shops with my dad, listening to gear then my dad would pick out stuff he would like to try at home, and then he would make up his mind, now i'm not saying he wasn't influenced by the audio press of the day, i'm sure he was to a certain degree, but he made choices on what he liked the sound of and as i remember the staff in both shops didn't try to sway him one way or another, they just wanted to sell gear.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 18:49
I wont address hi-fi dave directly in case he feels I am confronting him :scratch:
But what happened in shops varied but what happened in the industry did not. The magazines and the reviewers dictated what the shops stocked, because *you* the buying public only asked for what was being hyped. So that removed a whole load of good stuff and only left what was either promoted for advertising reasons as with What Hi-Fi (who note never say who does the review) or for brainwash or back handed reasons by the reviewers for the other magazines.
Dave has a perfect example in his shop now in the Albarry. Albarry has reappeared because it is a different market now, it stood no chance back in the days that Naim ruled the roost, even though in reality it p1ssed on a equivalent Naim. It went out of business largely because of that (though there was a straw that finished it off with a bad distributor). Also Colin Wonfor and his old products like Inca Tech are suddenly a minor FOTM on some forums, another company (amongst many) that were seen off for the same reasons. I could spend another paragraph just listing good product that couldn't find an acceptable way to market because they had to rely on reviewers, magazines and retailers, and they were just stitched up.
So Dave may have sailed through it in his ivory tower but the influence of it still controlled his market place and what he stocked and what sold.
Any way I only start my rant when prompted, so don't prompt me and I wont start. Just realise why there are so many Linn LP12's and Naim amplifiers for sale on ebay, as so many were sold during the hype, and still with good prices as the brainwash still runs very deep.
When you are told by a leading prominent reviewer (no names no pack drill) that he could only own and push Naim and Linn because *they were* the market, and if he didn't use them he wouldn't get any work, then you see how deeply engrained it became.
Anyway 'nuff sed.
For now :ner:
i don't like getting into a fracus
Thanks Mark. I certainly wasn't aiming anything in your direction... I don't know you that well - but I know you well enough to know that the quote above is 100% true.
Anyway, despite my initial "oh no, what have I done" feeling this morning when I woke up with a hangover, I'm actually glad I got it off my chest, and do genuinely hope that we can put behind us all some of the angst and find some peace and harmony.
F*** it, I'm even going to put on some New Seekers and open a bottle of Coke. :lol:
Reid Malenfant
25-06-2011, 18:59
F*** it, I'm even going to put on some New Seekers and open a bottle of Coke. :lol:
:lolsign: I'll hum it, you sing it :eyebrows:
Jac Hawk
25-06-2011, 19:11
F*** it, I'm even going to put on some New Seekers and open a bottle of Coke. :lol:
easy fella no need to go that far:lolsign:
hifi_dave
25-06-2011, 19:14
In my 'ivory tower' I sold and still sell, products I believe in, whether or not they get written about or reviewed. The magazines have never influenced my choices and neither have manufacturers.
As for reviewers, in the 70's and 80's I wrote for all the mags of the time and never once wrote about a Linn or Naim product. I was at liberty to choose what products I took a fancy to and often wrote about products long before other reviewers. I even wrote favourably about some of Richard's earlier products.
I have only ever stocked and sold products I believe in and have never been pressurised indirectly by the mags or directly by manufacturers.
Well you are strongly into part of it, but yours only reflects the part the Linn LP12 and to a degree the Rega played in it, and you are as persistent with it as I am.
I don't think so, Richard. I only refer to it in context, when it's relevant to do so, and that's only occasionally when the subject comes up.
With you, it's rather different, as your bitterness from what you experienced 'in the old days' is very evident, and bubbling insidiously underneath the surface like a time-bomb, waiting to explode, and it doesn't take much encouragement for that time-bomb to go off.... :eyebrows:
Anyway, let's leave that there and move on. I actually find these discussions cathartic. Now and again it's good to have 'clear the air' sessions, and get what's bothering you off of your chest!
What other forums give this facility to their members - can you imagine Wigwam or pfm allowing this? So, folks, be grateful for what you've got! ;)
Marco.
Jac Hawk
25-06-2011, 19:21
I wont address hi-fi dave directly in case he feels I am confronting him :scratch:
But what happened in shops varied but what happened in the industry did not. The magazines and the reviewers dictated what the shops stocked, because *you* the buying public only asked for what was being hyped. So that removed a whole load of good stuff and only left what was either promoted for advertising reasons as with What Hi-Fi (who note never say who does the review) or for brainwash or back handed reasons by the reviewers for the other magazines.
Dave has a perfect example in his shop now in the Albarry. Albarry has reappeared because it is a different market now, it stood no chance back in the days that Naim ruled the roost, even though in reality it p1ssed on a equivalent Naim. It went out of business largely because of that (though there was a straw that finished it off with a bad distributor). Also Colin Wonfor and his old products like Inca Tech are suddenly a minor FOTM on some forums, another company (amongst many) that were seen off for the same reasons. I could spend another paragraph just listing good product that couldn't find an acceptable way to market because they had to rely on reviewers, magazines and retailers, and they were just stitched up.
So Dave may have sailed through it in his ivory tower but the influence of it still controlled his market place and what he stocked and what sold.
Any way I only start my rant when prompted, so don't prompt me and I wont start. Just realise why there are so many Linn LP12's and Naim amplifiers for sale on ebay, as so many were sold during the hype, and still with good prices as the brainwash still runs very deep.
When you are told by a leading prominent reviewer (no names no pack drill) that he could only own and push Naim and Linn because *they were* the market, and if he didn't use them he wouldn't get any work, then you see how deeply engrained it became.
Anyway 'nuff sed.
For now :ner:
C'mon Richard, Naim and Linn both make some very very good equipment, you make it sound like we the general pubic know absolutely nothing, we have ears and we can tell if something sounds good or bad, so they were a little unscrupulous in way they manipulated mags and some dealers, but some might say that was just clever thinking and good business on their part, at the end of the day things have changed, let what's dead and done be buried, otherwise it'll stink up the joint :cool:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 19:32
I don't think so, Richard. I only refer to it in context, when it's relevant to do so, and that's only occasionally when the subject comes up.
With you, it's rather different, as your bitterness from what you experienced 'in the old days' is very evident, and bubbling insidiously underneath the surface like a time-bomb, waiting to explode, and it doesn't take much encouragement for that time-bomb to go off.... :eyebrows:
Anyway, let's leave that there and move on. I actually find these discussions cathartic, and now and again it's good to have 'clear the air' sessions, and get what's bothering you off of your chest!
What other forums give this facility to their members - can you imagine Wigwam or pfm allowing this? ;)
Marco.
Very true about other forums, but they are different at WW the in crowd can vent any time they like, and we are getting the victims of it here.
It is not what you think Marco. I survived it all by going export, by 1990 90% of my turnover was export, I just largely walked away from the UK market. It just wasn't worth the irritation or the return (as to get them to pay was another thing). I was just the same then, but we had no internet, I was sending letters to Inside Hi-Fi (a trade magazine) and other ways, but was largely a lone voice as others were scared they would lose the crumbs of business they were being allowed. You have to remember the industry had trade organisation to try to keep mavericks or people who wouldn't play the game in line, like BFA / FBA and for the retailers BADA. I actually expanded the turnover of the company through that period up to 1999 by three times. So this has always been a question of fair play *for the industry* as a whole, not me personally, and still is, along with an element of pay back time.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 19:36
C'mon Richard, Naim and Linn both make some very very good equipment, you make it sound like we the general pubic know absolutely nothing, we have ears and we can tell if something sounds good or bad, so they were a little unscrupulous in way they manipulated mags and some dealers, but some might say that was just clever thinking and good business on their part, at the end of the day things have changed, let what's dead and done be buried, otherwise it'll stink up the joint :cool:
You could tell what was good and bad amongst what you were *allowed* to hear and compare. As long as the dem conditions were fair, and they often were not.
Anyway............ Let's not turn this into another Linn/Naim ranting thread. I know you were prompted, Richard, but I'm now closing that prompt!
So unless anyone else has got something to say regarding what Alex wrote earlier, let's all move on and get back to the main forum :)
One last point I will make is that could those of us who are 'partial to a little tipple' of an evening, shall we say, try and stay away from their keyboards in future until they're sober? :eyebrows:
I'm not poking you in particular, Alex, but I can tell right away how people's posting style (and to an extent, personality) changes after a few sherbets - 'nuff said! ;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 20:51
I get the feeling that Howard is seeking a rather higher profile on the forum than merely joining in on a general "Balderdash & Piffle" thread, but a "Howard's Musings" thread seems an excellent way ahead to me. :)
I have only just spotted this part of the thread. I think you are all being unfair to Howard. I personally think his posting has come about because he still thinks he is posting on a blog and not a forum. The way he posts is blog style or even twitter and facebook style. I don't think it is deliberate or associated with any business desire, I think it is part of human nature - the desire for contact and communication.
Anyway............ Let's not turn this into another Linn/Naim ranting thread. I know you were prompted, Richard, but I'm now closing that prompt!
So unless anyone else has got something to say regarding what Alex wrote earlier, let's all move on and get back to the main forum :)
One last point I will make is that could those of us who are 'partial to a little tipple' of an evening, shall we say, try and stay away from their keyboards in future until they're sober? :eyebrows:
I'm not poking you in particular, Alex, but I can tell right away how people's posting style (and to an extent, personality) changes after a few sherbets - 'nuff said! ;)
Marco.
Well yes, it took a little Dutch courage to "tell it like it is" but if you think my post was just the rant of a drunkard, and has just been a minor diversion from the main forum due to a few sherbets, then feel free to keep burying your head in the sand...
But as you (patronisingly) suggest, perhaps best if I stay away from the keyboard in future.
Whoooa.....hang on a minute.
Alex, it wasn't meant to be patronising, so I apologise if it came across that way. The fact is, I can tell when people posting have had a drink - their persona changes, the same as it does in real life, so I'm simply stating facts.
And you weren't telling it "as it is", simply how *some* people saw it. Your reality is not necessarily the *actual* reality. The very fact that I allowed your thread to stand, and allow discussion of it, shows that I'm not buring my head in the sand! ;)
Now let's leave it there, please, or the thread will be locked, as I've had enough of this now. There's only so much a guy can take.
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
25-06-2011, 21:15
I have only just spotted this part of the thread. I think you are all being unfair to Howard. I personally think his posting has come about because he still thinks he is posting on a blog and not a forum.
Now i think you might be being a tad unfair Richard. Just because the pair of you are knocking on a bit is no excuse for complacency, i hope you aren't suggesting the Howard is just going at it willy nilly because he's an oldie :eyebrows: Neither of you appear to be losing it yet ;)
Personally i think a good few people respect him for sticking to principles, i guess even though i'm younger than him that at least i do. He has brought a certain element of fun to AoS of late with his freebie giveaways, of which i received a CD myself (& i'm certainly greatful for it).
I actually think Jerrys idea is a good one, there are going to be a certain group of people that kind of follow what Howard has to say. I always look but i don't always click on the link, but i have found that when i do i often have something to say on the subject! Howard while maybe not appearing to be 'the common man' certainly has some kind of inkling of what it's like to be one :)
A Howards thread may well be quite interesting at the end of the day :cool:
All imho of course ;)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
25-06-2011, 21:19
Now i think you might be being a tad unfair Richard. Just because the pair of you are knocking on a bit is no excuse for complacency, i hope you aren't suggesting the Howard is just going at it willy nilly because he's an oldie :eyebrows: Neither of you appear to be losing it yet ;)
Personally i think a good few people respect him for sticking to principles, i guess even though i'm younger than him that at least i do. He has brought a certain element of fun to AoS of late with his freebie giveaways, of which i received a CD myself (& i'm certainly greatful for it).
I actually think Jerrys idea is a good one, there are going to be a certain group of people that kind of follow what Howard has to say. I always look but i don't always click on the link, but i have found that when i do i often have something to say on the subject! Howard while maybe not appearing to be 'the common man' certainly has some kind of inkling of what it's like to be one :)
A Howards thread may well be quite interesting at the end of the day :cool:
All imho of course ;)
Ho-hum! I wasn't saying Gerry was wrong I was saying that Howard is used to a style of posting because he has a blog. I think Jerry's idea is good.
I also think it is you being somewhat rude to associate any of this with age.
A Howards thread may well be quite interesting at the end of the day :cool:
I agree :)
So shall we do something about it?
Marco.
jandl100
25-06-2011, 21:44
Ackcherly - the "Howard's Thread" idea was Alex's. I just repeated it cos I thought it was a good one.
Btw - come back Alex - this forum would be much the poorer without you. :)
Who says he's away, Jerry? :scratch:
I sincerely hope not. I only made an honest observation, which is precisely what Alex did last night...... Honestly, sometimes I feel like it would be easier managing a group of premenstrual girls!! :doh: ;)
Marco.
Who says he's away, Jerry? :scratch:
I sincerely hope not. I only made an honest observation, which is precisely what Alex did last night...... Honestly, sometimes I feel like it would be easier managing a group of premenstrual girls!! :doh: ;)
Marco.
This place has more flounces than Princess Diana's wedding dress!
jandl100
25-06-2011, 22:36
Well, I hope I was wrong, but I read this as an intent to leave ...
But as you (patronisingly) suggest, perhaps best if I stay away from the keyboard in future.
But hopefully it was meant only to apply only when Alex had been partaking of the fruit of the vine. :drinking: :drunk::cocktail::comatose:
:whistle: :lol:
Lol - well that's the way I took it to mean.....
Let's hope we're right, because apart from anything else, I'm close to committing Hari-kari from treading on eggshells, trying to keep every bugger happy!!! :rolleyes:
:acid:
Right, time for bed. I need an early night :goodnight:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
26-06-2011, 09:24
Lol - well that's the way I took it to mean.....
Marco.
We need the Tutti from libiamo.
Godiamo, la tazza, la tazza e il cantico,
la notte abbella e il riso;
in questo paradiso ne scopra il nuovo dì.
(Be happy; The wine and singing
beautify both the night and the laughter
Let the new day find us in this paradise)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ILusosl5w&feature=related
Alex, I feel your caring and I think, from the posts here, many others do too. I hope that Marco's lengthy and comprehensive reply has answered your issues. AoS is definitely a community and a far cry from a blog (I have little time for them except certain technical blogs which have furnished me with the answers I need). As with any group of people, the dynamic is constantly changing but you can't get away from the fact that 'good people is good people'. My feeling is that there are people here whom I hope to meet one day (you are one of them) and the discussion and debates about both systems and music are stimulating. There is no other reason for me having hit over 4,000 posts and many of you stretching even higher.
Long may it continue.
One last point I will make is that could those of us who are 'partial to a little tipple' of an evening, shall we say, try and stay away from their keyboards in future until they're sober? :eyebrows:
Marco.
:eek:
After 10 pm on this site I think most of the regulars are a 'little bit merry', myself included. Is it not going to be just a little bit quiet here if we all follow this advice?
I'm just saying, like.
Also I think Alex may have left the building which is a great shame if true:(
Hi Martin,
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark which unfortunately Alex took the wrong way. I expected the daftee to laugh! :eyebrows: :doh:
We always gently 'poke' each other for a giggle, and so my little quip was intended as just that. Perhaps he was feeling a little 'delicate' or was in a bad mood last night, or I hit a raw nerve? I don't know, hey, we're all human!
Anyway, I've forgotten about it already, and I'm sure Alex will be back in due course. He was on earlier this morning :)
Marco.
Okay that's good to know.:)
Typing words onto a computer screen really is a pathetic way of communicating, ain't it?;)
It can be at times, err....challenging!
Marco.
Also I think Alex may have left the building which is a great shame if true:(
I'll lure him back...
http://www.lilaccurtains.com/images/lilac-curtains-7.jpg
So unless anyone else has got something to say regarding what Alex wrote earlier, let's all move on and get back to the main forum :)
I have one last observation on the matter and I only make it as it would indeed be a great shame if Alex left the forum, as he contributes a great deal and I feel compelled to make a further post in Alex's defence . . . . I'm also typing it without the aid of 'a sherbet or two' ;)
Marco, as a new member here I have no prior knowledge or experience of either Richard or Howard, so have only formulated my opinions since joining in February this year. Now Howard whether intentionally or unintentionally, does seem to have a knack of ticking people off with his numerous link postings ala 'blog' style and eBay rants. I'm sure many of his contributions are well intentioned with a desire of just wanting to contribute, but a cynic may view them as a way of raising his profile, as after all he sells Hi-Fi. So on that note I also agree that having 'Howard's Musings' somewhere would be a good idea in relation to a bit of site housekeeping, as there are often some little gems and it would be a shame if all that kept happened were further 'ignore list' additions.
There is no denying that the dynamic has changed lately and I know it says 'Forum' at the door and is open to anyone, but as is frequently and positively commented on, AoS is different because it isn't confrontational like so many other forums, so that in itself attracts and retains a certain type of member, change that status quo and those people are at best likely to be uncomfortable or at worst leave. It does seem to me that due to the addition of a few new members, AoS has lost more than it has gained.
You yourself laid down some ground rules and asked for peoples tolerance when allowing Richard back onto the forum, which is an indication you anticipated there could be problems. As we have witnessed, it kicked off almost immediately with two members ducking out straight away and since then, there has been a general cooling off by some others.
You have often championed the fact the AoS belongs to it's members, so maybe if the potential for a black cloud is anticipated in the future, it may be an idea to poll the membership on what they think first? This could possibly achieve two things, firstly allow the populace to feel they are more involved and secondly it could potentially avoid the recent dust ups we have witnessed.
Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest as not all of us enjoy the confrontation robust exchange of views that has featured of late. You do a fantastic (and very challenging) job at keeping folk in line, which can only be applauded and as Martin says 'good people is good people' but when those good people start to leave because of members who have previously been banned, then you do have to wonder?
Now I'm going to have a drink and spin some toons . . .
:cool:
Tim
Excellent post, Tim. I value your feedback. Rest assured I will reply, as thoroughly as you'd expect, but it may not be until tomorrow...
The sun is out, Del is cooking some local Welsh lamb cutlets on the barbie, and there is a rather nice Amarone to devour, all al fresco! :cheers:
Marco.
I'll lure him back...
http://www.lilaccurtains.com/images/lilac-curtains-7.jpg
:lolsign:
How could he resist?
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
26-06-2011, 15:22
You yourself laid down some ground rules and asked for peoples tolerance when allowing Richard back onto the forum, which is an indication you anticipated there could be problems. As we have witnessed, it kicked off almost immediately with two members ducking out straight away and since then, there has been a general cooling off by some others.
Tim
I think you need to look at who kicked.
Let's not get into any tedious 'who did what to whom', please, Richard. Tim merely said "it kicked off". He didn't name names as to who was responsible.
Anyway, I'll answer Tim's post in my own time. Therefore, I'd appreciate it, if when I get round to that, the thread hasn't degenerated into a girls swinging their handbags match - ta! ;)
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
26-06-2011, 15:37
Let's not get into any tedious 'who did what to whom', please. Tim merely said "it kicked off", Richard. He didn't name names as to who was responsible.
Anyway, I'll answer Tim's post in my own time, so I'd appreciate it if when I get round to that, the thread hasn't degenerated into a girls swinging their handbags match - ta! ;)
Marco.
But he is making me responsible for it. I came, certain people didn't want me to be here, so made a point of making me unwelcome, all I did was defend myself.
Anyway I will let it lie, it is your decision. If you feel it is better for the forum that I go away again you only have to ask.
Ok, thanks. I appreciate that, and I'm sure others will, too :)
There is certainly no reason for you to go at the moment, Richard. Trust me, it will take more than a couple of folks going off in a huff and taking their ball home (and I'm not referring here to Alex), to influence any decision I make on your future here! ;)
Marco.
aquapiranha
26-06-2011, 15:57
I really like AOS. I am probably at the bleeding edge of the AUP with regard my POV, but I do try to reign in the more opinionated part of me. I often participate in heated 'debates' on other forums but do try to keep it down here which I hope shows the level of my respect for the forum and the mods etc. I do have some opinions with which others would strongly disagree though.
You could say this is the cosy local where you can have a decent pint in the company of friends, and the other forums are the nightclubs where you go at the weekends to get pissed and have a mess about!
:lol:
I think you need to look at who kicked.
Richard, I carefully tried not to apportion any blame and if it came across that way, then I apologise. We have never met and if we were having a pint in a pub I'm sure we would get along, as there is no doubting you have an awful lot to offer knowledge wise. I was merely pointing out that your presence appears to be the catalyst for a lot of behaviour I have not witnessed on AoS previously.
There are always two sides to any argument and everyone should have the right to defend themselves. Hats off to Marco too for allowing such liberalism and also for allowing people like Alex and I to air our opinions freely, without fear of our comments being immediately deleted.
Feedback is a gift Richard and I'm done now.
:cool:
Hi Alex and Andre
If you reading this I hope you both come back
Alex
You have been a major part of AOS for a long time now and for me you just really feel part of AOS I could not really imagine AOS without you and know both Andre and yourself are highly respected here. The last few days has been heated and hard for everyone who cares about AOS.
Andre
The above could easily said to you as well I miss reading your knowledge about all things prog and pre 73
I guess a forum for me is about good debate and Banter, and perhaps making a few friends along the way too. Its also about sharing knowledge, learning and experiences. It can get heated but I like to think its a place where people are valued.
Jac Hawk
26-06-2011, 16:51
It's knowing when to take a breath, and be diplomatic, people like Richard and Howard who lets say stand up for themselves when debating a topic help to make the AoS an interesting place, however in my opinion they and some others find it difficult to defend their point of view without lashing out verbally, or posting cynical little quips, it's simple, defend your point of view yes, but do it in a civilised manner.
Richard I understand that you may not have instigated things, but there's no denying that you have had trouble in the past so need to ease your way back in, and not with all guns blazing.
Finally I to would really hate to see Alex and Andre quit the forum over this.
WOStantonCS100
26-06-2011, 18:33
But he is making me responsible for it. I came, certain people didn't want me to be here, so made a point of making me unwelcome, all I did was defend myself.
It isn't always necessary to defend oneself, you know? What's that Beatles album? "Let It Be". If indeed you are regularly being "attacked" and you don't respond in kind, sooner or later the spotlight is on the attackers. Generally, folks don't tolerate those who are constantly on the offensive. Never fear, just like only having one amp in many hundreds give up the ghost (regardless of where the fault lay)... in time, the numbers speak for themselves. Truth and facts take a back seat to no one. But, you have to let them speak for themselves.
Anyway I will let it lie, it is your decision. If you feel it is better for the forum that I go away again you only have to ask.
For you or anyone else on AoS, I would encourage one thing... ...just take a brief step back; not off and gone (hint for anyone who may be contemplating such), just temporary, at the appropriate moment(s). I have to commend Marco because I always hear/read him saying... ...I'll get back after I've had time to think it over and formulate a proper answer. This is the key to many a pleasurable experience on forums; the ability to "take a moment", think things through, decide if a response is truly needed and to what degree the response is needed. Very sensible. I have to constantly remind myself to do the same.
When I first signed up for AoS, they told me to drop my pants. Wait a minute... that's wrong. They asked me if my sister was good looking. No... that's not it either... Let me think again. Ah, yes. That was it. It felt like it was "Pick on the chaps from the US Day" everyday. Ooops, that's true. NOOOOO!!! What I'm saying is it took time for me to get a better sense of who people are here; because, after all we're all Pinball Wizards. It's not a bake off; we can't see each other or glean inflections and gestures. I had to realize that it was going to take time for me to adjust to a new set of people and their respective viewpoints. And at the point where I almost felt no one would ever give a crap about what I posted, I too had to realize that it's going to take a while for the members on the forum to figure out that I am really here because I love music, am fascinated by gear and generally just want to enjoy the interaction of other folks with the same general outlook. We're all opinionated, I certainly am about my vinyl preference; but, I'm learning to more quickly detect the difference between a debate and a pissing contest. The latter is just a divisive waste of energy and a compromise to one's happiness. "Ommmmmmmmmmm."
The Ignore "button": I don't like the ignore button. To me that represents a failure. I would like to think that if any member of this forum showed up at chez moi, we could find common ground and enjoy a good listening session. Just as I have friends that I just don't talk about politics with; but, have a grand time going on about other things. I prefer to make friends rather than enemies in my "off screen" life. Why should it be any different online?
Having said that, I too think a "Howard's Musings" type thing would be quite a good idea. And, Howard I apologize for not being a little more constructive at the outset of the OT.
A bit of navel gazing doesn't do any harm, provided it isn't too protracted.
Maybe it's because I have nigh on 10 years of jousting on hi-fi forums that I have developed a rather thick skin, especially so having the contentious issue of cables and all that brings about in it's wake to contend with. Snake oil salesman, charlatan, crook, con man, vested interests, you name it, I have been called it, but before all that and since I still remain an enthusiast -which led to the cable making business naturally.
I first met Richard Dunn back in the early 80's at Hi Fi Consultants in Peterborough and even then he was no shrinking violet, who always said it straight from the hip. Be that as it may, the man knows his stuff in design and one of the best amps I ever owned was a Tresham pre/power combo which I kept for close on 20 years. Rather than hold him at arm's length and be suspicious of him, it is our DUTY to harness the talent and experience this guy has and that I believe is a major asset on the forum. The same applies to Howard too by the way.
As far as I am aware there is no major dust ups extant at the moment on the forum and as such we cannot erase any previous upsets either, so as the insurance companies say "We like near misses with no collisions because they cost us nothing".
I'm not known for my girlie strops, although as Joe has observed, flouncing is definitely my thing. ;)
At the end of the day, I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face - sad as it seems to actually write it down - AoS is a big part of my life - I've invested a lot of time and energy in it, and that is why when I felt something threatened the "status quo" I felt compelled to pipe up. I appreciate Marco will feel I am over dramatising it, but as others have eluded to, AoS is the "comfy local" where you don't expect to get chinned as soon as you walk in the door! ;) I wouldn't have gone out on a limb if I genuinely thought I was the only one who felt this way, so thanks for those who have supported me.
Anyway, onwards and upwards, - Frank - your post hits the nail on the head.
If this thread achieves anything, then hopefully everyone will count to ten before posting anything with their sleeves rolled up... :)
Reid Malenfant
26-06-2011, 19:39
Nice curtains Alex :lol: Glad you are still going to be about m8 ;)
Frank, i was probably in & out of HiFi Consultants in Peterborough from about 1985 onwards, i specifically remember purchasing a beautiful JVC QLY-5F turntable with JVC MC2E cartridge for the princely sum of £65, the original owner traded it in for an LP12 which totalled at over £1000 to (apparently) achieve a better sound :eyebrows:
If Richard was about in 1985 i may well have met him to ;)
Hmmm...
Actually NO!
I have many observations, and indeed "facts" that may be relevant to this thread, but on reflection, I think my silence might be best. ;)
I'm glad to see the situation seems to have been sorted out, or it at least heading that way! :)
Cheers...........
P.S No beer!
WOStantonCS100
26-06-2011, 20:05
I'm not known for my girlie strops...
I would say you look mighty fine in them girlie strops... but, I don't quite know what girlie strops are. :eyebrows: :)
Glad you're still around. It takes courage to speak up on a forum. It's just needed every now and then and I think some very constructive things have come out of it. I've done that on one other forum... and so wish I had never bothered.
Beechwoods
26-06-2011, 20:20
I've got say this has got to be one of the most civilised and constructive 'introspective' threads I've read. It means a lot to me that AOS means so much to you, and it's clear that it's all of you, the members that make this place what it is.
:grouphug:
Nice curtains Alex :lol: Glad you are still going to be about m8 ;)
Frank, i was probably in & out of HiFi Consultants in Peterborough from about 1985 onwards, i specifically remember purchasing a beautiful JVC QLY-5F turntable with JVC MC2E cartridge for the princely sum of £65, the original owner traded it in for an LP12 which totalled at over £1000 to (apparently) achieve a better sound :eyebrows:
If Richard was about in 1985 i may well have met him to ;)
I lived in Orton Brimbles up until 1985 and from my bedroom window I could see the Tresham factory, which was in Tresham Road :lol:. From there I moved darn sarf to Surrey to earn a crust, then to Taunton. It was a couple of years afterwards I bought my Tresham pre/power from Steve Boxshall in Cambridge (great man, even greater dealer) with a Tannoy label on the back of it, so I don't exactly know at which point in time Tresham ceased.
Ten years or so ago, Mr Boxhall still had a pair or two of Ardens in his small flat. Huge they were and almost blocked out the sunlight. he taught me a dead simple way of positioning speakers in a room and it works every time, even if it makes you look an even bigger plonker doing it :)
hifi_dave
26-06-2011, 21:13
I'm so glad that Alex hasn't left the building, after all, he was only saying what others were thinking.
It would be a great pity if this forum degenerates into nastiness and aggression, when it used to be polite and good natured.
No chance! ;)
Marco.
good to know
Yer still a daftee, though, but not a bad shag! :lol:
Marco.
Yer still a daftee, though, but not a bad shag! :lol:
Marco.
wellies are awaiting
flatpopely
26-06-2011, 22:08
Richard, read this thread again; you hate the whole dealer slurp model so stop whinging. Selling direct scone way, not the ony way.
Your posts on AoS have skewed the forum, have a chat with yourself.
Richard, read this thread again; you hate the whole dealer slurp model so stop whinging. Selling direct scone way, not the ony way.
I'll have a direct scone with strawberry jam and clotted cream please.
I'll have a direct scone with strawberry jam and clotted cream please.
yum yum but only from Dorset
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
26-06-2011, 22:24
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpopely
Richard, read this thread again; you hate the whole dealer slurp model so stop whinging. Selling direct scone way, not the ony way.
What the f*ck is that about, I can't even find the original.
flatpopely
26-06-2011, 22:33
Sorry, have a nice life.
I posted from iPhone so the spelling is off, I meant to say:-
"Selling direct is one way, not the only way."
What the f*ck is that about, I can't even find the original.
Amazing, despite everything that has been said, your first reaction here is an aggressive one...... I give up :doh:
Anger, like all the emotions, involves physiological and chemical changes in the body. Heart rates and adrenaline levels are affected as the body experiences anger. For some people these surges can become addictive and destructive. There is a fine line between acknowledging anger and venting it until it is out of control.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
26-06-2011, 22:58
Amazing, despite everything that has been said, your first reaction here is an aggressive one...... I give up :doh:
What do you seriously expect, coming across this out of the blue. You think that post is not aggressive? well then I equally give up on you.
Thing Fish
26-06-2011, 23:30
This thread is turning into the school yard. How old are we people...? Sometimes I wonder...:scratch:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
26-06-2011, 23:33
Quote:
Anger, like all the emotions, involves physiological and chemical changes in the body. Heart rates and adrenaline levels are affected as the body experiences anger. For some people these surges can become addictive and destructive. There is a fine line between acknowledging anger and venting it until it is out of control.
"The tao (way) is to be a mirror on the world, reflect what you receive. But step through the mirror and there is nothing there, nothing to hold on to, it is all illusion."
Who wrote that?
Amazing, despite everything that has been said, your first reaction here is an aggressive one...... I give up :doh:
Allow him enough slack. Giving up is a good idea, conserve your resources for a more worthwhile cause, one that is receptive.
Thing Fish
26-06-2011, 23:54
A deluded fool.
Thing Fish
26-06-2011, 23:54
Double post. Sorry
Thing Fish
26-06-2011, 23:57
Quote:"The tao (way) is to be a mirror on the world, reflect what you receive. But step through the mirror and there is nothing there, nothing to hold on to, it is all illusion."
Who wrote that?
A deluded fool with too much time on his hands and a poor education.
"The tao (way) is to be a mirror on the world, reflect what you receive. But step through the mirror and there is nothing there, nothing to hold on to, it is all illusion."
Who wrote that?
Have you not tried Google if you don't know? I dont think many people here do that stuff.
Thing Fish
27-06-2011, 00:59
Have you not tried Google if you don't know? I dont think many people here do that stuff.
People on here have better sense. Thank Dawkins.
My little understanding of Taoism is that it seeks to find compassion humilty and moderation known as the three Jewels of Tao
Beechwoods
27-06-2011, 05:50
God knows what's come over this thread overnight. I thought we were getting somewhere as well :steam:
jandl100
27-06-2011, 07:14
God knows what's come over this thread overnight. I thought we were getting somewhere as well :steam:
Yep, sorry, Nick. But it's inevitable.
I knew from RD's first re-appearance here that it would end in tears.
A red mist descends when he gets on a forum - the poor bugger can't help it.
It's just sad that some well-respected and -liked AOSers have been lost along the way. And the spirit of the forum has been despoiled.
... [de·spoiled, de·spoil·ing, de·spoils. 1. To sack; plunder. 2. To deprive of something valuable by force;]
A bad decision by the Mods, imho. :(
Sorry.
Beechwoods
27-06-2011, 07:53
It would be nice if we could work this through in a gentlemanly way rather than relying on brute force moderation. Things were going pretty well until the fire was stoked last night. If more logs are chucked onto it this thread will end up locked to allow us some time to discuss offline.
Quote:"The tao (way) is to be a mirror on the world, reflect what you receive. But step through the mirror and there is nothing there, nothing to hold on to, it is all illusion."
Who wrote that?
Ma Tzu?
flatpopely
27-06-2011, 08:53
I knew from RD's first re-appearance here that it would end in tears.
A red mist descends when he gets on a forum - the poor bugger can't help it.
Indeed, thats what happens to me..........can't help it. It's the 'absolute' of his opinion that really gets me. There can be no debate as as we are all sheep and are brainwashed by the industry.
Beechwoods
27-06-2011, 09:00
Sorry. I'm temporarily locking this until I can have a discussion with Marco and the other guys about next steps.
For goodness sake, people, I have an early night, and then come back to this pish!! :doh:
I've read through what's been written and I can see EXACTLY what's happened....
Andrew, for the life of me, I can't see what prompted you to write this, totally out of the blue, which to me was designed with no other reason than to wind Richard up:
Richard, read this thread again; you hate the whole dealer slurp model so stop whinging. Selling direct scone way, not the ony way.
Your posts on AoS have skewed the forum, have a chat with yourself.
Everything was hunk-dory, up until that point, and the vibe was great, so what on earth possessed you to dredge that stuff up again, I've no idea. But you better have a good reason, mate, that convinces me your goal wasn't simply to provoke Richard, or you'll be out of here, and that decision won't just be yours alone.
I'm very disappointed in you! :(
Alan S, I've warned you already, via PM, about your behaviour, so consider yourself banned for a week, That'll hopefully give you time to learn some manners!
You didn't even have the courtesy to reply to my last PM, sent early yesterday afternoon, which you said you would. How rude! So obviously you thought it was more important to argue the toss here with Richard at 1.20am.....! :rolleyes:
Dave (Thing Fish), I've read your completely unprovoked attack on Richard:
A deluded fool with too much time on his hands and a poor education.
That was totally uncalled for and not acceptable under any circumstances! Deleting it does not excuse you from writing it in the first place. Since when did you decide that we would condone such inflammatory behaviour?
Therefore, consider yourself on a warning. If I see you insulting people like that again, you'll be out for a week, too.
EDIT: {Sincere apologies to Dave, as thanks to his clarification, I've now realised that it wasn't Richard he was referring to above, but rather the original author of the quote. I made the mistake simply because I only saw Richard's name on the quote, when in fact it was a quote within a quote.... :doh:
Of course I now withdraw those remarks. I guess that's what happens when you've got so much immature bullshite to sort out! Anyway, sorry Dave!!}
Right, now everyone else behave. I've got things to do, but will be answering Tim's post from yesterday, when I get a chance.
Marco.
P.S All deleted posts have been restored, so that people can see the chain of events which led up to this bollocks. I suggest that some of you who may have gotten the wrong end of the stick, due to these deleted posts, re-read the thread again from the point where it all kicked off.
JazzBones
27-06-2011, 10:07
For goodness sake, people, I have an early night and come back to this! :doh:
I've read through what's been written and I can see EXACTLY what's happened here.
Andrew, for the life of me, I can't see what prompted you to write this, totally out of the blue, which to me was designed with no other reason than to wind Richard up:
Everything was hunk-dory, up until that point, and the vibe was great, so what on earth possessed you to dredge that up stuff again, I've no idea. But you better have a good reason, mate, that convinces me your goal wasn't simply to provoke Richard, or you'll be out of here, and that decision won't just be yours alone.
I'm very disappointed in you! :(
Alan S, I've warned you already, via PM, about your behaviour, so consider yourself banned for a week, That'll hopefully give you time to learn some manners! You didn't even have the courtesy to reply to my last PM, which you said you would do. How rude!
Dave, Thing Fish, I've read your completely unprovoked attack on Richard (which you originated), so consider yourself on a warning. If I see that again, you'll be out for a week, too.
Right, now everyone else behave. I've got things to do now, but will be answering Tim's post from yesterday, when I get a chance.
Marco.
Marco, may I add my plea..... Please peeps don't fuck up a really good forum site. The old saying goes, 'if you don't like the pub you're in, then quietly walk out the door and go down the road to another one more to your tastes :( its as easy peasy as that!
Ron :cheers:
flatpopely
27-06-2011, 10:11
Sorry Marco.
I'll make myself scarce on here.
Andrew.
I think you'd better, Andrew, if you can't behave yourself on a forum where Richard exists. What you did last night was unforgivable.
Marco.
flatpopely
27-06-2011, 10:20
Marco and AoS.
I apologise for the trouble caused by my post, out of character.
It was not called for and I also apologise to Richard, we have had our differences but in this instance I did not post correctly.
Goodbye.
Andrew.
Marco, may I add my plea..... Please peeps don't fuck up a really good forum site. The old saying goes, 'if you don't like the pub you're in, then quietly walk out the door and go down the road to another one more to your tastes :( its as easy peasy as that!
Ron :cheers:
Indeed, Ron, but everything was going fine until Andrew, for reasons best known to him, relit the fuse! :doh:
I have therefore no choice but to think that his plan was simply to fan the flames again because he doesn't want Richard here (still bearing a grudge from past events, perhaps?), and so strove to provoke him into conflict.
And if that was the case, I view that with great displeasure!
Listen up, people:
Richard is here to stay on AoS for as long as he likes and/or until the management team decide otherwise, or there's some other justified reason to remove him.
So if any more of you have got plans to put a spanner in the works, simply to fulfil your own selfish agendas, then it is YOU who will be removed, not Richard.
I trust that I've made myself clear!!
Marco.
Marco and AoS.
I apologise for the trouble caused by my post, out of character.
It was not called for and I also apologise to Richard, we have had our differences but in this instance I did not post correctly.
Goodbye.
Andrew.
Fine, apology accepted. But it is best that you go.
Marco.
alfie2902
27-06-2011, 13:34
Indeed, Ron, but everything was going fine until Andrew, for reasons best known to him, relit the fuse! :doh:
Listen up, people:
Richard is here to stay on AoS for as long as he likes and/or until the management team decide otherwise, or there's some other justified reason to remove him.
Marco.
Hmmm.... So are we all to pussy foot around Richard while he can say what he likes? & also bring old battles over from other forums?
Andrew (Flatpopely) & Simon (SQ****) have both been brought up by Richard in other threads & now Andrew has had a pop back you say it's best he goes!!!! WTF!! Simon SQ doesn't even have the right to reply here & nothing was done about Richard having a go there too!!
Richard will liven the place up, but at what cost? I hope you know what you're doing?
Trojan horse springs to mind!!
Hi Alfie,
That's an interesting way of looking at things to say the least! :doh:
Hmmm.... So are we all to pussy foot around Richard while he can say what he likes? & also bring old battles over from other forums?
No, not at all. What you decide to do is up to you. All I want is for everyone to get on, and I will not be bullied into changing my mind about Richard, simply because some people don't like him and don't want my plan to allow him back to work. People should know that I have an immovable IRON RESOLVE, as far as that's concerned!
There has to be a very valid reason for removing him, as I will not simply take the easy option of banning Richard, just to satisfy some people's personal agendas, and have a quiet life. I am way too strong-willed for that, and so I will remain focussed on achieving what I set out to do.
Jeez, if I can let bygones be bygones, and forgive and forget, when Richard used to spend virtually his waking life slagging off AoS and me on his forum, then I'm damn sure everyone else here can, too!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
I suggest that some people, including you, Alfie, take that on board.
Richard is making a distinct effort to fit in and contribute constructively, if given a chance, whereas it was Andrew who was stirring it and bringing up battles from other forums (or certainly allowing his grudge against RD, based on past events, to adversely affect his contributions here).
Did you not see exactly why things went tits up on this thread, when I left everyone in a good mood before I went to bed last night?
That was caused purely and simply by Andrew's actions. He should have respected the mood of the thread at the time, and left things well alone.
Andrew (Flatpopely) & Simon (SQ****) have both been brought up by Richard in other threads & now Andrew has had a pop back you say it's best he goes!!!!
What's done is done on other threads. The latter part of this thread was meant to have been reconciliatory and about a new start.
If Andrew had had the best interests of AoS at heart, rather than his own selfish desire to continue his futile battle with Richard, then he would've let it lie. It's as simple as that. He didn't, and mayhem ensued, due to others also taking their opportunity to have a pop - and I will not have it!
Andrew's subsequent apology, both on the forum and in private, is ample proof that he knows he was out of order. And outside of AoS, we won't fall out over it.
WTF!! Simon SQ doesn't even have the right to reply here & nothing was done about Richard having a go there too!!
For your information, Simon emailed me to ask if his posting rights could be resumed in order to address RD's accusations. I replied saying yes, and have since done that. Ask him yourself. I always try to be fair. Simon, for whatever reason, decided not to bother responding. And indeed, in any case, it is now way too late! So we won't be going there and reopening old wounds.
Now, I'm locking this thread again temporarily until I reply to Tim's excellent post yesterday, once I've had my lunch.
You will have the opportunity to respond to what I've just written after that.
Marco.
Hi Tim,
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time out to comment as it shows, like Alex, how much you value the AoS community :)
Marco, as a new member here I have no prior knowledge or experience of either Richard or Howard, so have only formulated my opinions since joining in February this year. Now Howard whether intentionally or unintentionally, does seem to have a knack of ticking people off with his numerous link postings ala 'blog' style and eBay rants. I'm sure many of his contributions are well intentioned with a desire of just wanting to contribute, but a cynic may view them as a way of raising his profile, as after all he sells Hi-Fi.
Yep, I'm sure that there's an element of truth in that, and so will deal the matter accordingly.
So on that note I also agree that having 'Howard's Musings' somewhere would be a good idea in relation to a bit of site housekeeping, as there are often some little gems and it would be a shame if all that kept happened were further 'ignore list' additions.
Totally agree, and so will move to do this A.S.A.P.
There is no denying that the dynamic has changed lately and I know it says 'Forum' at the door and is open to anyone, but as is frequently and positively commented on, AoS is different because it isn't confrontational like so many other forums, so that in itself attracts and retains a certain type of member, change that status quo and those people are at best likely to be uncomfortable or at worst leave.
I understand exactly what you're saying and accept that. However, confrontational is not what we're aiming for. I agree that there has been an element of that in the last few days, but that's only as Richard slowly but surely sheds his old baggage and learns to integrate better into our community.
I guess that, in that respect, there was always likely to be a 'storm before the calm', as it were, and I feel that now Richard is getting to know people better, and vice versa, there will be less and less of the confrontational instances you refer to, until they become virtually non-existent. That's the plan, anyway!
If Richard is guilty of anything now, it's of not knowing when NOT to react, let things lie and take the moral high ground. This is a skill he will have to learn if he is to survive not only here, but on any other on-line community he chooses to frequent. I can relate to how difficult it is to do this, when you are a naturally fiery and passionate character and find it difficult to back down when you feel you're being wronged, as I often faced the same dilemma when participating on other forums, before AoS was started.
But I have learned to do it, and when correctly executed, it is a formidable weapon in one's defence armoury. Because the attackers, being left simply to attack, gradually make themselves look more and more ridiculous, and so on-lookers will then very quickly side with the person being continually attacked! ;)
Therefore, Richard must learn to be able to back off and let things like, and crucially, allow the management team to deal with any problems. Unlike on other forums, where the fairness of the moderating is often questionable, I don't think that anyone could justifiably say that about the efforts of the team here.
Anyone being unfairly treated, will always be defended accordingly, so there is no longer any need for Richard to fight all his battles himself, all he need do (and this also applies to anyone else) if he feels that he's being unfairly attacked, is hit the report post button, or PM a member of the team, and I guarantee that the situation will be dealt with tout-suite!
On that note also, if Alex or you, or anyone else has a problem with the way AoS is going at any particular stage, then tell a member of the team about it in private. Don't bottle things up, and allow yourself to become pissed off. As you can see from this thread, we will ALWAYS listen to the concerns of our members, and act upon them when possible. However, we would rather that they were aired in private, and not in public (unless you feel the situation hasn't been handled properly in private), in order for us to deal with any issues people have in the most productive way.
It does seem to me that due to the addition of a few new members, AoS has lost more than it has gained.
With both Andre and Alex back in the fold, I don't think that's the case. It is testament to how much people value AoS that despite them not always being 100% happy with what happens and perhaps taking a spell out for a while because of that, that they will generally always come back, and it is always touching when this happens.
Rest assured, too, that when someone feels strongly enough to leave, that the management team will always take the reasons for that on board and try and prevent it from happening again in future. Life is a continual learning curve, and so is running a busy forum like AoS, which is populated by people who feel a real connection with it. And we always take that as a great compliment!
You have often championed the fact the AoS belongs to it's members, so maybe if the potential for a black cloud is anticipated in the future, it may be an idea to poll the membership on what they think first? This could possibly achieve two things, firstly allow the populace to feel they are more involved and secondly it could potentially avoid the recent dust ups we have witnessed.
It's a good idea in theory, Tim, but not in practice. We've tried it before, and unfortunately it simply allows those with an agenda to vote against their 'enemy', rather than what might be considered best for the forum. Therefore any final result would be skewed by that. Furthermore (and I've personally been on the receiving end) it's not a terribly nice experience for the person being voted in or out, especially when they're told that they're not wanted, and so its a rather cruel way of doing things.
I prefer to just try it, go with the flow, and let things evolve organically :)
Anyway, just wanted to get that off my chest as not all of us enjoy the confrontation robust exchange of views that has featured of late. You do a fantastic (and very challenging) job at keeping folk in line, which can only be applauded and as Martin says 'good people is good people' but when those good people start to leave because of members who have previously been banned, then you do have to wonder?
Indeed. Hopefully though, things will now calm down, and we can get back to the way things were before all the recent shenanigans, WITH RICHARD as a valued part of this community.
I would therefore ask everyone to play their part in ensuring that AoS remains a friendly place to be (and I will insist that Richard plays his part, too). I can also assure everyone that I will be taking a hard line on anyone who is seen to be aggravating things for the sake of selfishly ramming a point home, and showing more interest in satisfying what's best for them, than what's best for AoS..... The latter must ALWAYS come first.
You have been warned, folks!!
Now, let's get back on track. I would appreciate it that if unless someone has something of an URGENT NATURE that they DESPERATELY want to say, that we PLEASE leave it there on move on, as the last few days have been extremely stressful for those who run this site, so guys, spare a though for us, for a change! ;)
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
alfie2902
27-06-2011, 20:01
Now, let's get back on track. I would appreciate it that if unless someone has something of an URGENT NATURE that they DESPERATELY want to say, that we PLEASE leave it there on move on, as the last few days have been extremely stressful for those who run this site, so guys, spare a though for us, for a change! ;)
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
I had written a long response to your previous post, but I'll respect your wishes above & leave it there! :)
Just one point though, I wasn't trying to bully you into changing your mind! Bulling is not my way, as you well now by now! I just have a problem with injustice & will as you suggest hit the report post button, or PM a member of the team & let the mods mod, if I see something I feel strongly enough about. ;)
Hi Alfie,
Thanks for your thoughts. I wasn't accusing you of "bullying", mate. Perish the thought, as I know you too well (and that's not your style), but rather those whom I felt were selfishly putting any issues they had with Richard before the best interests of the forum, and not allowing me to carry out what I'm trying to do - 'nuff said!
I just have a problem with injustice & will as you suggest hit the report post button, or PM a member of the team & let the mods mod, if I see something I feel strongly enough about.
Trust me, so do I, and so I completely understand. But yes, what you've outlined above is what everyone should do in such circumstances. It's always the most productive way of dealing with things :)
Marco.
sq225917
27-06-2011, 23:31
Marco, apologies for not responding, I actually didn't check back, I just assumed, incorrectly, that it wasn't going to be a positive response. Guess I'm a shit judge of character.
Re the reason i wanted to post anyway- fuck it, what's the point? Richard is as likely to change his opinion of me as I am of him, life's too short.
Alfie, thanks for thinking of me...
Thing Fish
28-06-2011, 00:22
Sometimes a good old spat clears the air...:)
This thread seems to have achieved just that. Sort of like a pressure release valve...:steam:
Joy to all...:cool::cool::cool:
Cheers, guys, and on that note, we'll close this one now. Thanks for all your input :cool:
Marco.
P.S Simon, no worries. Please see my reply to you on the Blue Horizon brush thread.
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