Missing the point, maybe?

[WOStantonCS100]

In my last, unfortunately, way too crowded visit to a favorite record shop, I purchased a copy of Regina Spektor's Far on vinyl. When I got home there was a CD of the same inside. :scratch: I bought the vinyl because I didn't want the CD. I know this is supposed to be a selling point for new vinyl... to get a free CD or free .mp3 downloads. But, I'd rather make my own recording to my format of choice, if I care to do that. I would imagine for folks who have been doing vinyl a very long time, that we could care less about a free CD or free downloads... for the younger set or the new to vinyl crowd, perhaps. Maybe, I'm wrong.

For those who have been collecting (listening to music on the vinyl format) for years, is a free CD really a selling point? Is that a deal breaker?

[Thing Fish]

Defiantly not a selling point but a free CD is not a deal breaker.

I recently purchased Ron Sexsmiths 'Long player late bloomer' on vinyl from Canada and it came with a free CD. Great album for sure.

In fact the first person to PM me I will give them my genuine CD of the album free. I will even pay for the postage. What a bargain!!!

[MCRU]

CD is dead, long live vinyl.

[Jac Hawk]

Just goes to show that the CD format is so dead it has to be given away, the great thing about CD is that it's convenient it certainly doesn't sound better than vinyl, and that's been it's downfall, because we can all now easily download a track or album that we want which is even more convenient.

[Marco]

Definitely not a deal breaker, but what I find useful about that scenario is in comparing the CD copy with the vinyl, to see which sounds best! :)

Normally when CDs are given away free with vinyl records, the recording will have been produced and mastered digitally, therefore, technically, the CD (through a suitably good CDP) should sound best, simply because the recording has been done in the digital domain.

Replaying the vinyl record, in this instance, no matter how good the T/T, can only add distortion.

So a good test for your turntable is to see how close the record sounds to the CD version, especially in terms of noise... Much of course will depend on how good the vinyl pressing is!

With a good pressing, if there is negligible difference in sound quality, or the noise floor between the CD and vinyl record, as is the case generally whenever I do this test, then you know that you've got a very good T/T, capable of reproducing a sound accurate to the original source recording, which is all a good T/T should do – not add any 'romance' or euphony! ;)

Marco.

[WOStantonCS100]

Normally when CDs are given away free with vinyl records, the recording will have been produced and mastered digitally, therefore, technically, the CD (through a suitably good CDP) should sound best, simply because the recording has been done in the digital domain.

Replaying the vinyl record, in this instance, no matter how good the T/T, can only add distortion.

"But..." there's always a "but", isn't there. Most studios run the DAW software at a higher resolution than CD. In the old days of DAT it was 16/48 then dumped down to 16/44 for the CD. Nowadays, most professional studios' (that I've been in) record the digital masters at far higher resolution than 16/48, whether it's 24/48, 24/96 or 32 bit float (imagine a DSD master!). So then the question becomes, does an analog vinyl pressing made from (if it's made from) the higher resolution master with studio grade DACs sound more complete/natural than the higher resolution master truncated down to 16/44 and then played back using whatever digital front end we've got, knowing that in the conversion from high res to red book, originally recorded information was irretrievably lost?

That's got to be one of the longest questions I've ever posed. :lol:

[Beechwoods]

I think it's a mechanism to deter people from downloading illegal digital copies of an album which they have bought on vinyl, simply so they can have it in another format for their portable players. Much better IMO than offering 'MP3 Downloads' in addition to the vinyl, as it allows you to rip to your format of choice, including lossless...

[John]

A lot of modern digital recordings transfered to analogues sound pretty bad and at times almost unlistenable
After my last trip to Vic I wonder how much the platter is highlightening these frequencies and then exiciting them so it makes it sound even worse.
I used to think it was all in the recording after last weekend I think its a bit more complex

[Audioman]

Definitely not a deal breaker, but what I find useful about that scenario is in comparing the CD copy with the vinyl, to see which sounds best! :)

Normally when CDs are given away free with vinyl records, the recording will have been produced and mastered digitally, therefore, technically, the CD (through a suitably good CDP) should sound best, simply because the recording has been done in the digital domain.

Replaying the vinyl record, in this instance, no matter how good the T/T, can only add distortion.

So a good test for your turntable is to see how close the record sounds to the CD version, especially in terms of noise... Much of course will depend on how good the vinyl pressing is!

With a good pressing, if there is negligible difference in sound quality, or the noise floor between the CD and vinyl record, as is the case generally whenever I do this test, then you know that you've got a very good T/T, capable of reproducing a sound accurate to the original source recording, which is all a good T/T should do – not add any 'romance' or euphony! ;)

Marco.

I think the answer as to whether a digital recording sounds best on the vinyl or the free CD is it all depends. I think that in a round about way you are saying this, but a good turntable does not add distortion v CD. In fact I remember a certain reviewer come magazine owner performing measurements that at the time showed CD to have more distortion at least of the audibly intrusive type.

Most digital recordings made today are of a much higher resolution than the CD format is capable off. The result is that converting to analogue should give better results in theory. Also the 'Loudness Wars' have to be taken into account. CD versions are invariably mastered too loud today. Even if not brickwalled there is little scope to adjust volume to make listening a relaxing experience. Often a vinyl pressing of the same title with a dedicated mastering is far superior for just this reason.

However vinyl sound irrespective of measurements and theory invariably has that something over digital even high res formats (SACD/DVDA). Even in the case of older digital albums the vinyl rules. Try comparing the first 3 Enya albums on both formats or Cowboy Junkies 'Trinity Session'.

[colinB]

It is useful to get a cd because sometimes they make such an arse of the vinyl.
I was really looking forward to a vinyl copy of a favorite cd ( LOW the great destroyer ) that is rare as hens teeth. When i played it is was rubbish, flat dynamics and distortion. Obviously banged out with no thought to quality.
Lets face it for new recordings how many labels will take the time to geta specialist engineer and press it at one of few decent pressing plants left.
The albums that have been produced properly are in my experience the ones that have a high price tag of £25 and up.
Plus its useful to have the cd for the car:)

[Audioman]

It is useful to get a cd because sometimes they make such an arse of the vinyl.
The albums that have been produced properly are in my experience the ones that have a high price tag of £25 and up.
Plus its useful to have the cd for the car:)

There are some cheap popular releases that are done properly. Adele 21 has decent mastering and is a super quiet pressing with not even a pop. Surprising as I was half expecting it to be an aveage pressing with rubbish sound. The new PJ Harvey is also a rather nicely mastered and pressed LP. Of course you don't get a free CD with these. I find the US pressings other than from the premium plants to be the worst.

[colinB]

I got some Cat Power vinyl form the matador label and hey are spot on.
Im not so sure about the bjork metal mastering lps i bought. They sound very different and have a lot of pops.

[Jac Hawk]

It is useful to get a cd because sometimes they make such an arse of the vinyl.
I was really looking forward to a vinyl copy of a favorite cd ( LOW the great destroyer ) that is rare as hens teeth. When i played it is was rubbish, flat dynamics and distortion. Obviously banged out with no thought to quality.
Lets face it for new recordings how many labels will take the time to geta specialist engineer and press it at one of few decent pressing plants left.
The albums that have been produced properly are in my experience the ones that have a high price tag of £25 and up.
Plus its useful to have the cd for the car:)

Maybe they give away a free CD because the pressing is crap:eyebrows:

[Alex_UK]

Going against the grain by the looks of it, but I love releases with both LP & CD - I tend to use the CD for "normal" listening, and treat myself to the vinyl when I want a proper listen. Not saying I prefer the vinyl necessarily, but playing a record definitely feels to me that I have to invest a little more effort in the process, both physically and emotionally.

[WOStantonCS100]

Most digital recordings made today are of a much higher resolution than the CD format is capable off. The result is that converting to analogue should give better results in theory. Also the 'Loudness Wars' have to be taken into account. CD versions are invariably mastered too loud today. Even if not brickwalled there is little scope to adjust volume to make listening a relaxing experience. Often a vinyl pressing of the same title with a dedicated mastering is far superior for just this reason.

'Loudness Wars' masterings sound absolutely dreadful no matter the format. In which case, the lp is no worse and no better than any other format. Garbage In/Garbage Out. It is in these cases, I opt for the LP just to freak out my friends and get that "...:stalks: you have it on vinyl!?!?!?!?..." response. :eyebrows:

[Audioman]

'Loudness Wars' masterings sound absolutely dreadful no matter the format. In which case, the lp is no worse and no better than any other format. Garbage In/Garbage Out. It is in these cases, I opt for the LP just to freak out my friends and get that "...:stalks: you have it on vinyl!?!?!?!?..." response. :eyebrows:

The point is that in some but not in all cases the vinyl mastering is better often much better - the brickwalling being done on the CD mastering rather than the recording and mixing !

[Stratmangler]

The point is that in some but not in all cases the vinyl mastering is better often much better - the brickwalling being done on the CD mastering rather than the recording and mixing !

I think you'll find that the brick wall filtering is a player related phenomena, and has nothing to do with CD mastering.

[WOStantonCS100]

The point is that in some but not in all cases the vinyl mastering is better often much better - the brickwalling being done on the CD mastering rather than the recording and mixing !

Ahhh, I see what you're saying; a different master for each and specifically maximizing loudness/minimizing dynamics for CD. Gotcha. Yes, quite right, in that case it's not like the vinyl is going to be played at radio stations who've ditched their TT's and/or in people's cars, or what have you... ...unless, of course...

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/S72Qjhhwc2I/AAAAAAABR8Q/GBn6ljBPWbQ/s720/e56urdt6urst5e.jpg

[Reid Malenfant]

...unless, of course...[/B][/I]

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/S72Qjhhwc2I/AAAAAAABR8Q/GBn6ljBPWbQ/s720/e56urdt6urst5e.jpg
Ah but you live in the states, try that on a British road & you'd give up before you had driven 1/4 of a mile :lolsign:

[Marco]

Going against the grain by the looks of it, but I love releases with both LP & CD - I tend to use the CD for "normal" listening, and treat myself to the vinyl when I want a proper listen. Not saying I prefer the vinyl necessarily, but playing a record definitely feels to me that I have to invest a little more effort in the process, both physically and emotionally.

By golly, I think he's starting to get it! :eek:

;)

Marco.

[colinB]

I prefer playing vinyl but i dont know if its because of the vinyl or the record player.
Funny though. I was listening to Gilles peterson today on my mp3 player and this week he played his whole set with vinyl. The sound quality of his shows can be inconsistent but it sounded great today. Mind you he was playing old soul stuff and none of the usual fresh tunes.

[alfie2902]

I think you'll find that the brick wall filtering is a player related phenomena, and has nothing to do with CD mastering.

So what's a brickwall limiter then?

A brickwall limiter is usually used at the end of your mastering chain to even out peaks and maximize the overall loudness of your track.

http://www.meldaproduction.com/mdynamics/mdynamicslimiter.php

This is what the loudness war is all about & the reason alot of recordings today lack dynamic range!

[Stratmangler]

So what's a brickwall limiter then?

A brickwall limiter is usually used at the end of your mastering chain to even out peaks and maximize the overall loudness of your track.

http://www.meldaproduction.com/mdynamics/mdynamicslimiter.php

Well it ain't a brickwall filter, which is what was originally mentioned ;)
A brickwall filter is used to filter out ultrasonics from oversampling circuitry utilised in CD players.
The cutoff point is 21,000Hz.
Audionote engineered the brickwall filter out with one of their DACs, preferring to design the output stage to have a natural rolloff way before you got to the 21,000Hz area.

The device you have mentioned is to be avoided at all costs, and is the reason why there are lot's of really shit recordings out there, with no dynamics and an overall flat loudness to them.

[alfie2902]

Well it ain't a brickwall filter, which is what was originally mentioned ;)
A brickwall filter is used to filter out ultrasonics from oversampling circuitry utilised in CD players.
The cutoff point is 21,000Hz.
Audionote engineered the brickwall filter out with one of their DACs, preferring to design the output stage to have a natural rolloff way before you got to the 21,000Hz area.

The device you have mentioned is to be avoided at all costs, and is the reason why there are lot's of really shit recordings out there, with no dynamics and an overall flat loudness to them.

The trouble is 'Brickwall' dynamic limiters are still being used for most modern mastering! :doh:

In the context of the thread I didn't notice the 'Filter' bit, & as you say a brickwall filter is something different to brickwall mastering! :)

Back on thread though, I quite like a free CD with the vinyl, as Marco says good for comparison & also good for when I've had a few drinks & don't want to trash the cart :cool:

[WOStantonCS100]

Well, good news to report, depending on how you look at it. I've had opportunity to compare the LP and CD. The LP was played on my main rig and the CD was played on my Marantz VC-6001, upsampled to 176.8 The only thing I could really come away with was that there was more detail with the LP. The CD sounds good. The LP sounds good. It was just like there were these little bits of things (no pun intended) that were missing with CD that my ears were taking note of with the LP playback. The CD was not by any means a horrible listen and I would have happily lived with it... if I had never heard the LP.

Anybody want a free Regina Spektor Far CD?

[webby]

I don't know who Regina Spektor is I'm afraid!

I also don't know anything about mastering but I seem to be coming across lots of comments, not just here, slating or rather bemoaning the quality of the mastering on an album.

My hifi is very modest in relation to the time, effort and expense that a lot of you guys go to, but it seems to me that we're kind of at the mercy of the mastering engineers when it comes to getting the best out of a recording.

How many of you can say that this or that album would be great if only it had been mastered better? I know of the loudness wars; seems Red Hot Chili Peppers are one of the biggest culprits, no dynamic range, just loud. A right ear bashing. However, what other mastering issues are there?

By the way, the latest RHCP album is available on iTunes with the tag line "mastered especially for iTunes to optimise sound quality"! Now, whether there is a separate master for the cd version is unknown. I would hope so.

Edit: apparently, the loudness wars are on the decline. Let's hope so.

[webby]

I don't know who Regina Spektor is I'm afraid!

I also don't know anything about mastering but I seem to be coming across lots of comments, not just here, slating or rather bemoaning the quality of the mastering on an album.

My hifi is very modest in relation to the time, effort and expense that a lot of you guys go to, but it seems to me that we're kind of at the mercy of the mastering engineers when it comes to getting the best out of a recording.

How many of you can say that this or that album would be great if only it had been mastered better? I know of the loudness wars; seems Red Hot Chili Peppers are one of the biggest culprits, no dynamic range, just loud. A right ear bashing. However, what other mastering issues are there?

By the way, the latest RHCP album is available on iTunes with the tag line "mastered especially for iTunes to optimise sound quality"! Now, whether there is a separate master for the cd version is unknown. I would hope so.

Edit: apparently, the loudness wars are on the decline. Let's hope so.

Should I start a new thread?

[WOStantonCS100]

Should I start a new thread?

This thread can go anywhere from here, no problem. I still trying to get rid of that darn CD. :lol: I'll probably trade it in this weekend.

I shudder to think what mastering for iTunes means (moreover, sounds like). But, as long as they do a different (ie. better) master for vinyl, we're good.

People say "rock and roll needs to be loud"; but, I say go back and listen to some Yes or Rush or even Motley Crue. In my opinion, loud comes over far better if you have quiet to measure it against.

[colinB]

When i get a cd with the vinyl and compare i sometimes find the main difference is the vinyl has a bit more realism about it. But i could be deluding myself.