View Full Version : Matt Revelations
Went over to Vic to play with a few phono stages. Vic has been working a new matt for his turntable, its hard to explain the design it does not look like any other matt I seen.
Vic demostrated it on some modern vinyl, intially the vinyl sounded very compressed and as soon as we used the matt we suddendly had a proper holographic soundstage, we tried this on a few lps we both have struggled before and each time the albums became a lot more open and detailed, and I do mean a lot.
We then tried the same trick again on some audiophile quality LPs and they were even more magical
I guess the biggest trick it did for me was suddenly guitars became organic for instance on Jeff Beck Beyond the Veil I could all the subtle touches he was adding in their full glory including muted harmonics, and pitched harmonics etc. I have to say this was the best sounding system I have heard. Simply glorious
The new mat, soon to be available, is shockingly good. I've got the 12mm high version on my Salvation and today the 5mm version arrived for "typical" decks. I slapped this onto my 301 in place of the rubber mat and was really surprised how much it lifted the performance of the 301, with a humble M95ED too! Anyway these mats will not be expensive so it'll be interesting find out what others think and how they work on a variety of decks.
Yes I think they will be a bit of a bargin I must admit I am still amazed just how much difference they made
I would imagine the Matt will be as good on other TT. A very interesting design
By the way I think you be blown away by the bass drivers those 18" drivers are very special
Luckily I have some new 18's too, I doubt they're as good as Vic's but they were a big step foward for my room. I need to visit Vic soon. Good bass units really combine well with the mat...
The Grand Wazoo
18-06-2011, 23:09
That Jeff Beck track is an absolute sod to get right - proper torture test!
I wonder where Vic got this idea from Clive......from you perhaps......and where did you get the idea from......from me perhaps (and I got it from looking at the Meitner turntable).
Yes ideas are sometimes like that, i guess its about taking them a step further
Slippershod
19-06-2011, 09:13
I had a terminator arm from Vic a while back ... really nice guy.
any link to the mat ?
I think be on his site soon
He has just developed it
Yes Vic is one of the good guys and I love what the Terminator does. Vic was telling me a lot of people use it for archiving
I'll do somes piccies later today, I'm just back from a 26km MTB trail ride, I should know better at my age...
Here are my two decks with mats in place:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P6194248.jpg
Here's the Salvation with the 12mm high mat:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P6194249.jpg
Next up is the 301 with the 5mm high mat. What the mat has done for this deck in interesting. The motor vibrations / harmonics are probably responsible for much of how the Garrards sound, of course for Garrardistas this is a good thing. For me next to the Salvation my treasured 301 is coloured and lacking inner detail - but in a very pleasant way. Salvation is so superior that I've only been using the 301 to play 78s or records I won't trust to my London Reference stylus. The new mat doesn't elevate the 301 to Salvation levels but does make the deck more neutral and frankly a much better deck, though some may prefer the Garrard colourations. I can only think that the new mat is stopping the motor vibes reaching the record/stylus.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P6194251.jpg
Visually I feel there are traces of Transciptors to these mats, with Mark's nipple mat being part of the journey too.
http://pearly.zftp.com/jordan/hosting/transcriptors_small.jpg
I don't know yet what Vic will charge these mats but it won't be a king's ransom.
The Grand Wazoo
19-06-2011, 18:02
Meitner played about with pointy record supports, but ended up with a virtually platter-less deck......
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/attachment.php?attachmentid=6296&d=1304027744
I seem to remember KK writing in Hi-Fi News back in the 90's about using three watch crowns arranged in a triangle formation to support a record under its label area. I tried this using 3 small metal nuts and remember being initially convinced it improved the sound only to later change my opinion on extended listening.
Interesting looking mat from Vic.
Vic's put the mat info up on his site: http://www.trans-fi.com/resomat.htm
The Grand Wazoo
21-06-2011, 09:49
Interesting.
I'd be worried about the possibility of damage to the playing surface - I know he says that the cones are the same hardness as a record, so won't scratch it, but that doesn't really convince me that damage won't occur.
All I can is Vic really more a guy who is passionate about music he uses this in his own system and I think everyone who used one so far has not had any damage
I must admit I was blown away but what it did to records that were very hard to listen too. such as a lot of modern recorded music.
Clive uses the mat daily so I am sure he can add his thoughts latter
Interesting.
I'd be worried about the possibility of damage to the playing surface - I know he says that the cones are the same hardness as a record, so won't scratch it, but that doesn't really convince me that damage won't occur.
The supports are positioned to be in contact with the run-in and run-out areas of records. With these mats you need to stop the platter when changing records. I've not experienced any issues with the contact areas. The alternative is to only support the label area but I find the TransFi mats work better that just a label support type mat. I can understand your concerns, I had them at first too!
I've re-taken the mat pics with a slower ISO setting on my camera...less grain:
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P6214252-1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P6214254-1.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e359/cmeakins/P6214255.jpg
I heard a label support version and whilst it made a difference not to the same extent of support being provided across the record, the difference is quite big
The Grand Wazoo
21-06-2011, 10:20
The supports are positioned to be in contact with the run-in and run-out areas of records.
Ahh, OK Clive, thanks for that. I think the perspective of the photo's I've seen gave me the impression that they were actually placed to touch the playing surface.
That's rather more reassuring!
RochaCullen
21-06-2011, 10:24
I'd love one of vic's turntables and arms, but one of his mats might be a good place to start.
Ahh, OK Clive, thanks for that. I think the perspective of the photo's I've seen gave me the impression that they were actually placed to touch the playing surface.
That's rather more reassuring!
There will be some records where the supports are close to or maybe even right under the first music groove (it's all one groove but you know what I mean), it will depend on specific records and the size of the run-in area. Either way I've not found any issues but I expect extra care will be needed when one's throat has been lubricated.....but that's the least of my worries as I care a lot about my London Reference stylus!
Which mat for the Techie Clive ?- there appears to be two.
Which mat for the Techie Clive ?- there appears to be two.
The 5mm mat as seen on my 301. Does the Techie have a lip on the platter? I recall something like that. I don't believe it's been tried on a Techie yet.
Yes a very small 0.5mm?
Should be fine but it needs to be tried. Vic has a 7 day returns policy anyway.
RochaCullen
21-06-2011, 11:28
Yes a very small 0.5mm?
I think he said 5mm, not 0.5mm, and 12mm were the mat thicknesses.
Talking about the lip on the Techie platter.
RochaCullen
21-06-2011, 11:43
Talking about the lip on the Techie platter.
ahh right, apologies.
Nathan
How would this mat work with Achromat on it? It would eliminate possibility of marking the vinyl on supports spots. Is there a black version?
How would this mat work with Achromat on it? It would eliminate possibility of marking the vinyl on supports spots. Is there a black version?
You really need to be asking Vic these questions but I'll have a stab at them.
1) At the moment it's Hobson's Choice, white or white.
2) Assuming you have a 5mm Achromat you'll have a 10mm mat in total, is your spindle long enough (I don't mean to be personal...).
3) The interaction of mat(s), platter, record and stylus is complex, you'll have to try the combination to check how it sounds.
4) Unless you are totally hamfisted AND drunk I don't see that you'll leave any marks on the record.
Anybody tried one of these on a Lenco? Dom is doing up a Lenco for me as we speak & I am interested whether it would be an upgrade over the stock rubber mat?
hifi_dave
23-07-2011, 16:29
The supplied rubber mat is good, it's hard, dense and has good damping properties, so don't disregard it.
I certainly was not going to disregard it, but I just wondered if the other was 'better' or different.
It does not cost a lot give it try and report back
I think the orginal mat is a good one but think this will make a big difference
I certainly was not going to disregard it, but I just wondered if the other was 'better' or different.
I can't now, but should be able to give an opinion later in the year :)
As you were chaps :lolsign:
Maybe I can relate this to my 301 experience which should be relevant to a Lenco. The standard rubber mat does an excellent job of damping the platter, flick the edge of the platter with and without the mat - the difference is a clear as a bell so to speak! Flick the platter with the Reso-Mat in place shows that the damping of the platter is not as effective as with the rubber mat but a considerable amount of damping is still occurring. So you might conclude the Reso-Mat isn't as good as the rubber mat....but the other factor is that only very rarely is rubber thought of as the ideal mat material, just look at all the mats out there, how many are rubber? On my 301 it seems that the Reso-Mat points are better at isolating the stylus from platter vibrations than the rubber mat is even though the rubber mat kills them closer to the source.
Anyway.....at 30 quid with a return if not satisfied guarantee you can't go far wrong. The Reso-Mat will be different, you'll have to decide if you prefer it.
"only very rarely is rubber thought of as the ideal mat material"
On the other hand all the major vintage Idler Drives (Garrard 301/401, TD124 & Lenco) had rubber mats originally, didn't they, but perhaps that was all there was/all that had been thought of, at the time.:sofa:
Remember this TT had a lot of rumble issues at the time so the effects of matt was not the first major issue to worry about
The rubber mats are good. Clive has a lot of experience on a 301and really likes what the new mat does.
Dominic Harper
24-07-2011, 13:29
Hi Julian. As it happens, I have one of Vic's mats here and will give your Lenco a spin with the mat when all as complete if you wish.
I have tried Vics mat on my 401 and the results are mixed.
I tend to use one of my slate pucks with a cork mat. I have tried Vics mat with and without the puck and results are good, but obviously depends on the record thickness with puck in place. 180 gram plus pressings work well with the mat and puck, but thinner pressings do not like the puck as this tends to lift the outside edge of the record from the mat.
Vics mat is thicker than most mats, so bear this in mind if arm adjustment is limited.
Dom
"only very rarely is rubber thought of as the ideal mat material"
On the other hand all the major vintage Idler Drives (Garrard 301/401, TD124 & Lenco) had rubber mats originally, didn't they, but perhaps that was all there was/all that had been thought of, at the time.:sofa:
I was indeed thinking of more current mats....not those from the 50's and 60's. :)
Hi Julian. As it happens, I have one of Vic's mats here and will give your Lenco a spin with the mat when all as complete if you wish.
I have tried Vics mat on my 401 and the results are mixed.
I tend to use one of my slate pucks with a cork mat. I have tried Vics mat with and without the puck and results are good, but obviously depends on the record thickness with puck in place. 180 gram plus pressings work well with the mat and puck, but thinner pressings do not like the puck as this tends to lift the outside edge of the record from the mat.
Vics mat is thicker than most mats, so bear this in mind if arm adjustment is limited.
Dom
Hi Dom, I'm not convinced the mat sounds better with a puck in any situation. Trying a puck in a good thing to do but my feeling is that it couples the records too tightly to the platter, which is what the mat is designed to avoid.
Point taken, Clive.
Do give it a try Dom & let me/us know how you find it. OTOH I am not a keen exponent of centre weights/pucks myself.
Dominic Harper
24-07-2011, 14:52
I tried it with the puck just to examine all possibilities really, but it did seem to work quite well on thicker pressings. The mat is not in use at the mo, purely because I am examining various cartridge re-builds and need a level/ known reference.
The mat will get some more use when the new Garrard 301 slate plinth and rack are in place.
I just like the idea of the disc being 'de-coupled' from the platter, possible motor induced rumble etc. Anyone try this mat on a Notts Analogue (my other TT) by the way?
rusty bearing
26-07-2011, 16:44
Well I was after a new mat anyway as the original felt mat on my Pro-ject 6 TT ,Ortofon 2m Blue MM cartridge, arm rewired in copper litz by Dominic, occasionally garners enough static to come away with the disc, besides being a dust collector.
So I bought one. As was said its only 30.00 with a money back if your not happy. Initial impression is ...Gosh!
Playing Ian Matthews 'Songs from Gospel Oak' before and after changing mats, its gone from sounding like it was recorded in a small cellar to being on stage. Much more open and placement of the instruments seems more defined.
This is only my objective view, may not work for everyone but I reckon its money well spent.:thumbsup::thumbsup
Glad to hear it worked for you
Fascinating...
Were B&O right all along then????
Nicked from t'internet -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/99074f94.jpg
bogle111
27-07-2011, 00:12
Fascinating...
Were B&O right all along then????
Nicked from t'internet -
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/99074f94.jpg
Great to play warped records on a warped pressed ally platter - one almost counteracted the other - if you were very lucky.
B&O right? - yes, one good amp and a couple of pairs of speakers. QC way up the Swannee - worst brand I ever sold. No, hang on there was Teleton, English Audio, and Amstrad - no contest there then?
I still reckon that a record should be as firmly bonded to the mat as possible - and it is possible.
A thought occurs to me. How well does this mat support 10inch discs? I have quite a number (20/30) 10 inch LPs & I wonder if the three inner supports give enough support?
Boring to have to change mats (& therefore VTA) each time one changes disc size. Also I have a lot of 10 inch 78s, though I don't find that dead accurate VTA is so important for them.
I still reckon that a record should be as firmly bonded to the mat as possible - and it is possible.
In an attempt to open minds to a different approach, how about this analogy - don't take the analogy too far, it falls apart if you take it too seriously.
Imagine if we'd stuck with solid tyres on cars; we might have developed compliant / absorbent road surfaces to help provide reduce the effects of the solid tyres. This would provide insulation from the road surface / tyre interface which would otherwise cause noise and vibration to be transmitted into the car.
So now some folks from B&O, Transcriptors, Meitner, YNWaN (Audioflat) and Trans-Fi come along with a novel concept......why not make the tyre (akin to the TT mat) less closely coupled with the road, that way we don't need special materials covering the road. Let's use tyres filled with air (akin to lightly supporting records on points across the platter).
The idea for air filled tyres never caught on, people were so wedded to the idea of solid tyres even though some missionaries gained a few converts to the cause.
Arguably Ringmat and various spotmats have also been attempting similar approaches with platter / record de-coupling.
A thought occurs to me. How well does this mat support 10inch discs? I have quite a number (20/30) 10 inch LPs & I wonder if the three inner supports give enough support?
Boring to have to change mats (& therefore VTA) each time one changes disc size. Also I have a lot of 10 inch 78s, though I don't find that dead accurate VTA is so important for them.
I have tried it with 78s. It works fine with them, the 3 inner supports are all these more rigid records need. On my 301 the startup is fast so the 78 slips a few degrees. With 78s on the Salvation the startup is more gentle (but still fast), the slippage is engineered to occur elsewhere.
For years, my two favourite mats were the Ringmat, which worked supremely well for me with many decks, but not all..... and the once cheap-as-chips Spacemat (now around £20, which is still cheap I suppose ;)) seems to work on everything, seeming to absorb resonances in the records yet doing some decoupling too.
I've heard needle-drops of Ynwan's (Mark's) turntable system, which appears from memory to have a small style "mat" supporting the record over its inner third or so. Totally against current thinking, but it seems to work, and this with a Troika, which is hardly a "kind" cartridge to "energy transmission," as I believe it to load both the vinyl and the tonearm quite hard - IMO of course...
I wonder if Marco would be willing to try one, not sure of my setup is good enough frankly...
Yes, Mark's mat uses metal studs which are in contact with the record label. It sounds very good. I find that thin records (a little warped) respond better to having outer supports in addition to inner ones. There is a divide - tightly or loosely coupled. I feel with tightly coupled we have to try to find a sweet spot with a combination of materials. With loosely coupled it seems easier to get it right, there's a greater lack of colouration and sense of freedom with the music.
bogle111
28-07-2011, 23:59
In an attempt to open minds to a different approach, how about this analogy - don't take the analogy too far, it falls apart if you take it too seriously.
So now some folks from B&O, Transcriptors, Meitner, YNWaN (Audioflat) and Trans-Fi come along with a novel concept......why not make the tyre (akin to the TT mat) less closely coupled with the road, that way we don't need special materials covering the road. Let's use tyres filled with air (akin to lightly supporting records on points across the platter).
Have sold B&O turntables new like that one pictured, 1202 believe it was, but sounded a bit like an alto on steroids. Even the 1000 sounded better.
On my intro I stated that I had worked with J A Michell with the clamp. John had his Transcriptors platter with foam pads atop metal cones then. I had always been against this as the record moves very, very slightly vertically when tracked on a very slightly warped record, (not all the surface points can be supported on cones at the same time), especially with a Decca cart. or something else with a reasonably heavy tracking force. The clamp helped. It wasn't till I suggested that he put a glass platter on that coned platter with various materials that the sound was getting somewhere better.
Point contact does make, as you say, the sound is more airy, but to my mind at the expense of mid & bass, and because of warps, doesn't do anything for tracking accuracy either. Though I would not say that this platter might not do something for some decks sonically though.
I always believed that Luxman and Micro had a definite approach to both reducing warps and getting the record coupled for improvements, but still wasn't perfect and was over-engineered, thus too expensive. There is a way of doing it for DD that is simple, reasonably cost effective, reduces warp problems and improves sonically. No outer rings, no clamps.
I have probably the only working prototype/production sample available and it is 30 years old, but I should offer it to Marco to listen to first, respectfully as this is his site. Unfortunately away fo a little while now though.
Peter,
There is a way of doing it for DD that is simple, reasonably cost effective, reduces warp problems and improves sonically. No outer rings, no clamps.
Please could you elaborate on this, especially in relation to the Technics.
Cheers.
sq225917
29-07-2011, 11:04
I use a 12cm x 3mm carbon fibre/ply/carbon disc in the centre of my SME 10, it lefts the record free of the platter and with the SME clamp and can get all but the very worst warps as flat as a pancake.
To my ears it sounds better than no mat on the SME 10 (VTA differences accounted for in arm height)
I've used this for several years after first seeing and hearing Ynwans small spot mat.
Mr Shenzi, bless him, has just sent me his home-made cork mats to try. Perfect for sitting on top of my Dual 701 stuck-on mat and I'll be giving it a listen later today. The other is earmarked for comparison duties on the Thorens, Techie and Lab 80.
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