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Filterlab
07-10-2008, 14:56
After reading Beechy's thread and chatting about his DATs, I think I'll have a rummage on eBay, there's a lovely Sony DTC-57ES on at the mo for an opening of 90. Mmmm, wallet out!

Picture:

http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/jt8085jp/imgs/9/6/965368e4.jpg

DAT talk here please!

greenhomeelectronics
07-10-2008, 19:15
Oooooh nice looking machine. Make sure it's a working one though, parts are virtually impossible to maintain and the mechanisms are pretty fragile. Very nice looking bit of schmutter though. I think I might have a box of tapes somewhere that I don't need, if you get the player let me know and I will see if I can find em.
Dave.

Filterlab
07-10-2008, 20:57
Nice one! Thanks Dave. :)

Beechwoods
08-10-2008, 06:51
That is a really nice looking machine! It certainly looks like it was designed to sit with other home kit, rather than some black thing with rack mounts (like mine :)).

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul98/articles/tascamda20.html

http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/tascamda201.jpg

I've always had a thing about portables. The Denon DTR-80P had an attractive form-factor (identical to the Casio DA-R100).

http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/denon.jpg

You can get EMTEC DAT tapes from Tapecheck. I've not tried these myself, but have bought open-reel tape from them and they have been great. They have an eBay store as well:

https://www.btowstore.com/epages/Store3_Shop2188.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Store3.Shop2188/Categories/AUD/AUDDAT

DDS1 data tapes also work fine with Audio DAT players. Some say they don't handle errors as well - error correction on Audio recording and playback is different to data reading and writing. Audio tapes may rely less on the error correction intrinsic to data storage. DDS tapes are cheaper though.

Here's some links to DAT related stuff. Courtesy of the DAT-Heads (http://solorb.com/dat-heads/) list: http://solorb.com/dat-heads/Links.html

Marco
08-10-2008, 10:02
That Sony looks absolutely gorgeous - just my sort of thing because it looks like no expense has been spared in terms of engineering or parts quality! I hate the plasticky shit that forms the basis of most of today's digital equipment.

And, Beechy, the Denon DTR-80P portable looks as if it too would 'roast' an iPod for sound quality!

Two questions:

1) Why, 99 times out of 100, does convenience and facilities win the day over performance and sound quality when it comes to today's audio technology?

2) Why did DAT fail commercially as a digital format? I never followed 'the story'.

Marco.

Filterlab
08-10-2008, 11:48
Two questions:

1) Why, 99 times out of 100, does convenience and facilities win the day over performance and sound quality when it comes to today's audio technology?

2) Why did DAT fail commercially as a digital format? I never followed 'the story'.

Marco.

1) The majority of people don't understand the term sound quality and buy stuff because it 'looks' nice or impressive.

2) DAT didn't fail, it was a huge success. It was never aimed at the consumer though and was intended for purely commercial use. DAT was introduced in 1976 and has been one of the most prolific recording systems used in studios and outside broadcasts, a lot of studios still use it represents flexibility and convenience as well as being exceptionally high quality and able to compete with HD alternatives, especially as it's 24bit compatible.

The public never took to it as there was no real way to use it as a consumer, no in-car DATs, no 'personal' DATs so to speak (aside from the heavy and battery hungry portable recorders) and few hi-fi versions, certainly without rack mount lugs. The units and tapes were very expensive too and had to be treated carefully to avoid costly damage. Music has never been released on DAT either as far as I'm aware and most folk who'd record at the time would use compact cassette which was in its qualitative prime by then. As cassette was going out MD was coming in as were CDR machines, both of which were toppled by home computers gaining the ability to burn finalised CDs.

To hear a well set up DAT is a treat, whilst clinical in it's presentation, the sounds that come off a DAT tape are a treat to behold. Clean and crisp would be a great description, accurate and very faithful also, warm and valvey definitely not! I used to use DAT for recording and mastering, for both the accuracy and the fact that a direct digital lossless copy to CD could be made with ease, also a DAT would present EVERYTHING that was recorded and not just the nice bits.

Beechwoods
08-10-2008, 12:21
More thoughts later but I should say that Blue Bell Knoll by the Cocteau Twins was released on pre-rec DAT. I remember one coming up on eBay a few years back. There were some jazz releases around the time it launched too. But releases were very few and far between.

Marco
08-10-2008, 18:29
To hear a well set up DAT is a treat, whilst clinical in it's presentation, the sounds that come off a DAT tape are a treat to behold. Clean and crisp would be a great description, accurate and very faithful also, warm and valvey definitely not!


Rob, matey, I really must try to educate you sometime when it comes to valves because you've got the wrong idea entirely. A quick trip up to mine for a listen will sort it out :)

Modern valve equipment, or indeed valve equipment that has been designed properly in the first place, does not sound "warm and valvey" - quite the opposite, in fact! Allow me to give you a small insight into the sort of sound I'm used to with my valve gear...

Done properly, valves create the most 'alive', 'fresh', shockingly clear, detailed, vivid sound you could possible imagine, with huge dynamic scale and an almost haunting sense of 'air' and 'space' around voices and instruments so that performers appear to 'float' eerily around your ears like musical spectres - it has to be heard to be believed!

With accurately designed valve gear, despite the stereotypical image of valves, the musical ride is not warm or "cosy", although music is enveloped with a natural tonality so that it sounds 'real' without the 'grain' or 'edge' often superimposed by transistors.

If thinking of valves in terms of a 'musical ride', then imagine how you would feel strapped into the scariest rollercoaster ride of your life or how it might feel bungee-jumping down The Grand Canyon - the point I'm making is it's an adrenalin rush, not the feeling of being safely cocooned within the confines of a warm glow. This is the effect I get when listening to music with my Croft preamp and TD P/P Copper amp.

I hope that makes some sort of sense! :smoking:

Marco.

Filterlab
08-10-2008, 19:01
I recently listened to a system with a very expensive valve amp and a 5k pair of speakers, it sounded valvey to me, I could tell the difference in presentation. That's not to say that I dislike valves, but I still find them too... errr..... valvey if you know what I mean. :)

Marco
08-10-2008, 19:09
I don’t doubt what you heard, mate. Do you remember which "very expensive valve amp" it was? :)

The problem is, most mainstream commercial valve amps, even expensive ones, sound exactly like the stereotypical valve sound often referred to by people with limited experience of valves, which is the complete opposite of what I like or what I'm used to listening to!

Marco.

Filterlab
08-10-2008, 19:21
Dunno, something expensive though, I would say around the 4k mark. I've heard many valve amps, many many, and they just don't do it for me. I'd like to say they do but there's something about the sound that doesn't work for me. That's not to say the quality isn't amazing with valves, it's not to say that some of the finest amps in the world are valve based, but it's just not a sound that I can enjoy as much as a transistor based amp.

I know there is a stereotypical sound that folk expect from a valve amp, and boy oh boy have I heard some of those, but even the non stereotypical ones don't do it for me (that I've heard). There's just something about the lower midrange that I can't enjoy, not anything specific but just the presentation. Everyone enjoys different aspects to sound, for me it's cold, clinical accuracy. That's why I enjoy a digital source and a transistor amp. If I didn't, I'd buy something else. :)

Marco
08-10-2008, 19:26
I respect that, as those are your current preferences, but stay open-minded as always (I know you will). I guarantee that the sound you've heard up till now with valve amps isn't anything like what the gear I use sounds like (or Steve's for that matter, or any of that belonging to the hard-core D.I.Y valve guys here) simply because it's specialised and bespoke, and miles away from the mainstream. Commercially produced stuff is so often a big let down, in my experience, especially the really expensive stuff which tends to be overcomplicated in its design.

The other thing is, I think you'd love the presentation of the Spendors which is anything but 'warm and cosy', although they are not bright sounding in the slightest. When you come to visit (and I'm sure it will happen sometime) all will become crystal clear - no pun intended! :lol:

Marco.

niklasthedolphin
08-10-2008, 21:45
1) The majority of people don't understand the term sound quality and buy stuff because it 'looks' nice or impressive.

2) DAT didn't fail, it was a huge success. It was never aimed at the consumer though and was intended for purely commercial use. DAT was introduced in 1976 and has been one of the most prolific recording systems used in studios and outside broadcasts, a lot of studios still use it represents flexibility and convenience as well as being exceptionally high quality and able to compete with HD alternatives, especially as it's 24bit compatible.

The public never took to it as there was no real way to use it as a consumer, no in-car DATs, no 'personal' DATs so to speak (aside from the heavy and battery hungry portable recorders) and few hi-fi versions, certainly without rack mount lugs. The units and tapes were very expensive too and had to be treated carefully to avoid costly damage. Music has never been released on DAT either as far as I'm aware and most folk who'd record at the time would use compact cassette which was in its qualitative prime by then. As cassette was going out MD was coming in as were CDR machines, both of which were toppled by home computers gaining the ability to burn finalised CDs.

To hear a well set up DAT is a treat, whilst clinical in it's presentation, the sounds that come off a DAT tape are a treat to behold. Clean and crisp would be a great description, accurate and very faithful also, warm and valvey definitely not! I used to use DAT for recording and mastering, for both the accuracy and the fact that a direct digital lossless copy to CD could be made with ease, also a DAT would present EVERYTHING that was recorded and not just the nice bits.

I have to correct you slightly.

DAT was intented for consumers market............originaly.
Here it failed.
But commercial music industry let it in.
Instead.

DAT would only present everything the digital encoded technology was able to define.
This carries the exact same limitations as HD or flash based digital storage, you choose the bitrate and the sampling rate (up to 32/192 or DXD 24BIT/352.8kHz last time I checked) the higher the more detailed and the closer to the best analog solution.

DAT WAS a nice sounding media of the digital kind but suffering a lot from being fragile and from incompatibility issues from machine to machine due to delicate alignments in the tape path kind of similar to VCR's.

"dolph"

Marco
09-10-2008, 07:44
DAT was intented for consumers market............originaly.
Here it failed.
But commercial music industry let it in.
Instead.


That's what I thought, too, when I mentioned it had failed earlier. I meant in the domestic market. So which one of you chaps is right? :)

Marco.

Beechwoods
09-10-2008, 10:21
My personal view is that the consumer launch was only ever half-hearted. This is evidenced by the very small number of official releases on DAT. I'd call it a draw!

Oh, and Rob - if you do get one of those machines I'll do you a tape of interesting stuff for you to play on it, just let me know when :)

Marco
09-10-2008, 10:32
So, Beechy, it sounds to me like another high-performance format which potentially could've been of great use has become victim to the vulgar demands of commercialism, much like (in a different way) Betamax did to VHS in the 70s. It's always the bloody same. It pisses me off, but hey ho...

Marco.

Filterlab
09-10-2008, 15:18
No way on earth! Look what's just popped on to eBay:

Link to possibly the greatest DAT ever made! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pioneer-D9601-Professional-96khz-DAT-Recorder_W0QQitemZ130261550770QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1 5199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

...and it's in West London! I think it's calling me. :)

Beechwoods
09-10-2008, 15:22
Cor! It's a steal at that price :)

Shame it's not buyer pickup-only. That'd limit the competition!

Filterlab
09-10-2008, 15:47
Indeed, I fear the price will rise though. Sod it, I'll stick in a bid now and see what happens! :)

Marco
10-10-2008, 08:11
No way on earth! Look what's just popped on to eBay:

Link to possibly the greatest DAT ever made! (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pioneer-D9601-Professional-96khz-DAT-Recorder_W0QQitemZ130261550770QQihZ003QQcategoryZ1 5199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

...and it's in West London! I think it's calling me. :)

I much prefer the look of the Sony (more 'retro' with wooden sidecheeks, etc - I would guess it's from the 'ES' range), but I've got no idea which one is better - from your comments obviously the Pioneer :)

Marco.

Filterlab
10-10-2008, 10:19
The Sony looks like more of a 'hi-fi' component granted, but the spec of the Pioneer is hard to ignore, plus those rack lugs are removable. I'll have a flutter on it and see what happens, I've been chatting to the seller and he's very knowledgeable. Always nice. :)

fraser.
13-01-2009, 02:21
Did you pick up a DAT in the end mate? There's a SONY DCT 670 on sale locally, don't know much about these players though

Filterlab
16-01-2009, 12:33
I didn't get round to it to be honest, a few more important things cropped up and it dropped lower down my list of priorities. One day I'll get one, but there's no hurry to be honest.