CD sound Vs FLAC sound of the same track

[Laz Baz]

I am searching for help on this one for sometime now. I hope I will have a few good responses.
I bought the Onkyo TXNR609 (TI Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-Bit DACs on all channels 32-Bit DSP chip for advanced processing) because it has a USB input to be able to playback FLAC files.
1. I am disappointed to find that the play back of the ripped FLAC (44.1/16), via USB into Receiver, is not as good as the original CD.
2. My equipment: LG HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GMA-4020B ripping drive, Cambridge Audio 650BD DVD/CD player, Onkyo TXNR609 Receiver (with USB input can only plays up to 96/24 FLAC files via USB).
Q1:Which could be the weak link in the rip/playback chain? (a) Ripper drive, (b) EHD/USB output to Receiver or (c) receiver? . The track ripped by EAC gives a confidence 2 and ripped by dBpoweramp gives an accuracy of 2. Does this show I may need something like Plextor 230A or similar for ripping to a high accuracy? Or is there another reason? perhaps the Receiver DAC? I need to eliminate the cause before I rip all my CDs.
The track used as a test is U2, The Joshua Tree, Where the streets have no name.
Any help will be most appreciated.
Regards
William

[oldson]

interested in this one.
i dont know but sounds like the problem is with your flac player on pc, or the pc itself.

[Yomanze]

Hi,

Is your USB device set up via ASIO? Search for ASIO4Free.

I use: FLAC > Foobar2000 > ASIO > DAC

Best regards,

Neil

[Stratmangler]

You may well have some kind of DSP issues going on.

[Laz Baz]

Hi,

Is your USB device set up via ASIO? Search for ASIO4Free.

I use: FLAC > Foobar2000 > ASIO > DAC

Best regards,

Neil

Hi,
The EHD is directly connected to the Receiver USB port. The tracks are assceesd by the Receiver remote. I assume the FLAC is then going through the Receiver DAC and played back that way. Therefore I am suspecting the DAC is not doing a good job. But this again confuses me because when I play the CD, this too goes through the same Receiver DAC and it sounds better!!
So I have no idea and hope someone with more technical knowledge can throw some light.
William

[WAD62]

Hi,
The EHD is directly connected to the Receiver USB port. The tracks are assceesd by the Receiver remote. I assume the FLAC is then going through the Receiver DAC and played back that way. Therefore I am suspecting the DAC is not doing a good job. But this again confuses me because when I play the CD, this too goes through the same Receiver DAC and it sounds better!!
So I have no idea and hope someone with more technical knowledge can throw some light.
William

USB playback is a real can of worms, and that is where your problem probably lies...;)

[Laz Baz]

USB playback is a real can of worms, and that is where your problem probably lies...;)

Hi Will,
1. So would the (a) USB out of the EHD or (b) The USB port in the Receiver be the greater cause or both ie USB data transfer itself?
2. What other way could I utilise the EHD? Or do I have to ditch this way of archiving and playback?
3. If I wanted to use the Aux input (coax/optical) in the Receiver, what other way (equipment etc) I will need to achieve my initial goal of ripping CDs to FLAC and playing back with fidelity as close as possibile to the CD?
Regards
William

[WAD62]

Hi Will,
1. So would the (a) USB out of the EHD or (b) The USB port in the Receiver be the greater cause or both ie USB data transfer itself?
2. What other way could I utilise the EHD? Or do I have to ditch this way of archiving and playback?
3. If I wanted to use the Aux input (coax/optical) in the Receiver, what other way (equipment etc) I will need to achieve my initial goal of ripping CDs to FLAC and playing back with fidelity as close as possibile to the CD?
Regards
William

Hi William,

First of all I assume you ripped to FLAC correctly, try Dbpoweramp or EAC, they are very good, and a decent rip drive is essential for accuracy.

My first comment was based on the incorrect assumption that the Onkyo was a USB connectible DAC/Receiver, after checking it out it's a dedicated network computer/DAC/receiver, there's a lot of stuff bundled into it.

For it to be able to receive and process network/USB files there must be some form of onboard computer, to either read files from the EHD or receive them from the network.

If you're playing via the EHD as opposed to the SPDIF input the receiver's on board computer will be doing a lot more work. Receiving/accessing the file, interpolating it to PCM from FLAC, and then passing it onto the DAC for processing. With inbound SPDIF it only has to act as a DAC.

This additional work can have adverse effects on the sound quality, and given that it's in the same 'box' as the DAC it could lead to what is referred to as galvanic interference. It could also be that the onboard computer is a bit under speced for the job, just enough to work etc...

I wonder if you might get better results from using the network cable to a NAS drive via a router, rather than the local HD USB port. In this configuration there is probably less processing going on.

A lot of people on this site use a Squeezebox Touch (I use SB receivers), which has similarities to your Onkyo (obviously without the amplification part) in that one can directly plug an HD into it. However a lot of users report that it sounds better when it is receiving data via the network rather than from the local HD, it reduces the processing effort for the device...well that's my simplified interpretation.

Have a look around for some threads on the subject, there's all sorts of tweaking going on in order to improve the digital signal it serves up

My main configuration uses a NAS running SB server with a FLAC library, then into a SB receiver via WI-FI, then into my Audiolab DAX via SPDIF, my CD transport is also connected via SPDIF and I can not tell the difference between them. To be honest I think I prefer the FLAC playback, but that's after I'd upgraded the PSU on my SB receiver...there shouldn't be a noticeable difference either way really if things are set up correctly.

You could try serving up an SPDIF source via a NAS/SB configuration, or even by using a computer with an SPDIF out soundcard, at least you'd be on a more level playing field with your CD player.

[Laz Baz]

Will,
Thank you and all who responded. There is a lot of information and guidance for me to digest and act on.
I will give my progress when I decide what to do.
William

[Marco]

Hi William,

Welcome to AoS :)

Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community? This is required by all new members, so use the existing threads there as a guidline to see what info is required.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

[makruiten]

Didn't read the replies, but:

- your pc might alter the digital signal, so it's not bit for bit perfect. For example: can you alter the volume on your pc? Then it's not bit perfect.
- USB does not support 24/96 as far as I know, so are you absolutely sure your receiver supports a 24/96 signal, or does it upsample?

I do not have the same experience as you have on this subject. Can you burn the files to a disc and compare that one to the original, using the same player?

[WAD62]

Didn't read the replies, but:

- your pc might alter the digital signal, so it's not bit for bit perfect. For example: can you alter the volume on your pc? Then it's not bit perfect.
- USB does not support 24/96 as far as I know, so are you absolutely sure your receiver supports a 24/96 signal, or does it upsample?

I do not have the same experience as you have on this subject. Can you burn the files to a disc and compare that one to the original, using the same player?

..err, nor did you read the original question ;)

He's not using a PC for playback

[Butuz]

I think the answer is fairly simple. It is probably a poor USB implementation on the Reciever due to two reasons:

1. The reciever will be using one or more software layer in order to feed the digits from the USB drive into it's DAC. This gives plenty of room for errors, just like when using a PC. Think of this Onkyo software layer as a very cut down version of Itunes or windows media player or winamp. The reciever has to have software built into it in order to a) recognise the USB drive and recognise and b) play the music on the usb drive.

2. Data can not just magically appear in the Wolfston DAC(s) it has to be fed in though a hardware USB implementation (via the software layer). Now there are a couple of excellent hardware USB implementations on dacs such as M2Tech Young (£650) and Audiolab 8200CDQ (£900) where poeple have severe trouble telling the difference between USB flac and CD via Coaxial/Optical. But look at the prices. How can you expect the same level of USB hardware implimentation on something so cheap? The USB/DAC stages of the Onkyo probably represent absoloute maximum £75 of the overall cost of the amp.

So your comparing £75 worth of USB DAC against £650-£900 worth of USB DAC and wondering why your coming away dissapointed?

Hope this sheds some light?

Butuz

[Laz Baz]

Hi William,

My main configuration uses a NAS running SB server with a FLAC library, then into a SB receiver via WI-FI, then into my Audiolab DAX via SPDIF, my CD transport is also connected via SPDIF and I can not tell the difference between them. To be honest I think I prefer the FLAC playback, but that's after I'd upgraded the PSU on my SB receiver...there shouldn't be a noticeable difference either way really if things are set up correctly.

You could try serving up an SPDIF source via a NAS/SB configuration, or even by using a computer with an SPDIF out soundcard, at least you'd be on a more level playing field with your CD player.

Hi,
1. Its been sometime now. I have found the setting on the Receiver so that the disc track and ripped FLAC sound the same-I love it!!
2. Now I would like to store the FLAC files on a NAS and play them from there. NAS connected via Ehernet to Virginmedia Super-Hub (30MB), TX-NR609 Ethernet connected to TP-Link plugged into the wall power socket.
Will this work?

Any help will be a dream!

William

[icehockeyboy]

I also have an Onkyo AV receiver, albeit the slightly older 607.

The upshot is that they are rather poor at 2 channel music reproduction compared to even a much cheaper (mind you at what Onkyo are priced at, they don't get that much cheaper!) 2 channel amp.

[Macca]

I also have an Onkyo AV receiver, albeit the slightly older 607.

The upshot is that they are rather poor at 2 channel music reproduction compared to even a much cheaper (mind you at what Onkyo are priced at, they don't get that much cheaper!) 2 channel amp.

I have a couple of pals using Onkyo AV receivers (mainly for 5.1 gaming sound) but with all the bells and whistles turned off I can't really fault their 2 channel performance - not sure what models they are but one of them was £1K new :eek:

[icehockeyboy]

I have a couple of pals using Onkyo AV receivers (mainly for 5.1 gaming sound) but with all the bells and whistles turned off I can't really fault their 2 channel performance - not sure what models they are but one of them was £1K new :eek:


607 & 609's are much cheaper than a grand. :) And when you consider what they do for not a lot of money, they are great, but I still say they ain't that good with 2 channel! :) I must admit that mine sounds every bit as good as the twice as dear Denon it replaced!