computer audio output query?

[oldson]

i have been using my meier stagedac, via digi coax, for the last year now.
mainly playing flac from my pc. and cd's via toslink from my harman dvd25 player.

my dac will only recieve 16 bit 48khz max via its usb.

i have the "upgrade bug", and would also like to reduce clutter on my desktop, if possible.
i have been considering the 8200cdq and the m2tech young dac.
what i would like to know is.....
would the use of their higher rated usb inputs likely produce a better sound than my current set-up via spdif?

i am also looking at downloading hi-res music in the future.
is usb now the way to go?

i do realise the m2tech option would mean me keeping a disc spinner on my desk.

any advice would be much appreciated.
cheers

[Stratmangler]

The M2Tech Young DAC has proprietary drivers to enable transfer of 24/96 files and above via USB2 - disc spinner not necessary.

[oldson]

The M2Tech Young DAC has proprietary drivers to enable transfer of 24/96 files and above via USB2 - disc spinner not necessary.

thanks for the reply.
but is this option likely to better the sound quality i currently get from my system using spdif?
put it another way. is the usb connection the best way to connect the young dac to pc, or does it still lag behind spdif coax, in quality?
thanks

[purite audio]

The Youmg is primarily designed for computer audio, it's async USB protocol allows you to play 24/384 from your USB port, it will sound at least as good if not better from USB than through other inputs.
Keith.

[oldson]

The Youmg is primarily designed for computer audio, it's async USB protocol allows you to play 24/384 from your USB port, it will sound at least as good if not better from USB than through other inputs.
Keith.
thanks Keith
i dont suppose you offer free home trials?
simon

[alfie2902]

To my ears the Young Dac sounds better than the 8200cdq but really you need to hear them both & compared to your Meier Dac which I've never heard.

The Youngs async USB produces less jitter than a regular S/Pdif coax connection but the S/Pdif signal goes through exactly the same chips and processing, buffers and registers as the USB signal, the only difference is that it doesn't go through the USB controller chip. To my ears there's very little audible difference between the youngs USB & S/Pdif inputs!

So I would say async USB is now better than S/Pdif coax in general, But in the Young Dac there is very little audible difference between inputs to my ears!

[oldson]

To my ears the Young Dac sounds better than the 8200cdq but really you need to hear them both & compared to your Meier Dac which I've never heard.

The Youngs async USB produces less jitter than a regular S/Pdif coax connection but the S/Pdif signal goes through exactly the same chips and processing, buffers and registers as the USB signal, the only difference is that it doesn't go through the USB controller chip. To my ears there's very little audible difference between the youngs USB & S/Pdif inputs!

So I would say async USB is now better than S/Pdif coax in general, But in the Young Dac there is very little audible difference between inputs to my ears!

thanks Alfie
i can get the cdq on free home trial from audio-t. so i can compare to my current dac.
i would like the flexibility of the disc drive (in case my pc goes belly up), but not sure if it will get much use.
so maybe a cheap 2nd hand cdp and the young would be best?!?!
going around in circles, as usual.
but on a positive note, i should see £300 back from selling the meier.

[purite audio]

thanks Keith
i dont suppose you offer free home trials?
simon

Simon Hi , yes of course, you have to hear stuff in your own system.
Keith.

[alfie2902]

thanks Alfie
i can get the cdq on free home trial from audio-t. so i can compare to my current dac.
i would like the flexibility of the disc drive (in case my pc goes belly up), but not sure if it will get much use.
so maybe a cheap 2nd hand cdp and the young would be best?!?!
going around in circles, as usual.
but on a positive note, i should see £300 back from selling the meier.

Hi Simon,

I'm still trying out 3 transports with my Young Dac, an Audio Note CDT (S/Pdif), a SB Touch (S/Pdif) & a Windows 7 Laptop (USB) There is perhaps slight differences between the transports but I can't consistantly pick them out blind, so may just be expectation bias!

The AN CDT is good for when friends drop around with CD's so will probably stay in the system for the time being. There not much to choose between the SB Touch & the Laptop though, both stream my Flac's, play lots of internet radio (easier on SBT), both play Spotify, But the laptop will be good for 24/384 hi-res files if I ever manage to find any!

See if Keith will send you a dem unit as I believe he had some back in stock, I don't think they stay in stock for long though as most seem to get bought & not sent back. If you could coincide this with a loan of the CDQ you could nicely compare the 3 Dac's in your system! then buy or keep the one you prefer!

[oldson]

Hi Simon,

I'm still trying out 3 transports with my Young Dac, an Audio Note CDT (S/Pdif), a SB Touch (S/Pdif) & a Windows 7 Laptop (USB) There is perhaps slight differences between the transports but I can't consistantly pick them out blind, so may just be expectation bias!

The AN CDT is good for when friends drop around with CD's so will probably stay in the system for the time being. There not much to choose between the SB Touch & the Laptop though, both stream my Flac's, play lots of internet radio (easier on SBT), both play Spotify, But the laptop will be good for 24/384 hi-res files if I ever manage to find any!

See if Keith will send you a dem unit as I believe he had some back in stock, I don't think they stay in stock for long though as most seem to get bought & not sent back. If you could coincide this with a loan of the CDQ you could nicely compare the 3 Dac's in your system! then buy or keep the one you prefer!

sounds like i need a home demo.
i am leaning towards the young and 2nd hand cdp.
am currently bidding on an old marantz cd63ki on ebay. if i win this that means i would be looking at a head to head between the young and 8200dq instead of cdq.
trouble is the dq is not available yet.:scratch:

having said that, if the young out-performs my meier then it may not matter about the dq/cdq
cheers

[Spur07]

why not hang around for the Audiolab MDAC, it will be here in August and probably priced somewhere around the £400 mark.

[jantheman]

why not hang around for the Audiolab MDAC, it will be here in August and probably priced somewhere around the £400 mark.

:lolsign::lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
It was supposed to be here in February.......

[oldson]

:lolsign::lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
It was supposed to be here in February.......

wot he said ^;)

i thought the dq was to appear first?!
and i aint seen them in stock anywhere to date.

[oldson]

will the mdac compete with the "young", espescially where usb is concerned?

[Krisbee]

A good question. If the MDAC has similar software and hardware to the CDQ and DQ then the USB input will not need propriety drivers like M2tech products, but it probably will be limited to 24/192. Does even the CDQ work reliably over USB above 24/176?

In one of the long threads over at pfm, the designer talked about the compromises made in the design of the USB input of CDQ with regard to electrical isolation. In this area the Young Dac could be superior. As to SQ, only a side by side comparison in your system will tell.

[Stratmangler]

A good question. If the MDAC has similar software and hardware to the CDQ and DQ then the USB input will not need propriety drivers like M2tech products, but it probably will be limited to 24/192[/B]?


AFAIK generic (Windows/Mac OS) system drivers will only give out 16/48 maximum.
In order to play back back increased bit depth, and increased sample rates to have to use proprietary drivers.

So the above quoted statement is AFAIK incorrect.

This of course does not mean that 24/192 files will not play over a USB connection using generic drivers, it just means that DSP will be employed to adjust bit depth and sample rate.

[alfie2902]

AFAIK generic (Windows/Mac OS) system drivers will only give out 16/48 maximum.
In order to play back back increased bit depth, and increased sample rates to have to use proprietary drivers.

So the above quoted statement is AFAIK incorrect.

This of course does not mean that 24/192 files will not play over a USB connection using generic drivers, it just means that DSP will be employed to adjust bit depth and sample rate.

Using standard USB implementation I think this is correct & 16/48 is max without proprietary drivers.

BUT using different USB implementation the Benchmark Dac1 using it's AdvancedUSB(TM) is capable of streaming at rates up to 96 kHz/24-bit without installing any drivers!

[Stratmangler]

Using standard USB implementation I think this is correct & 16/48 is max without proprietary drivers.

BUT using different USB implementation the Benchmark Dac1 using it's AdvancedUSB(TM) is capable of streaming at rates up to 96 kHz/24-bit without installing any drivers!

Thanks Alfie - I was unaware of Benchmark's implementation.
Just been having a read about it on their site - it's curious that they start with
The DAC1 USB (USB DAC) is a reference-quality, 2-channel 192-kHz 24-bit digital-to-analog audio converter featuring Benchmark's Advanced USB Audio™ technology, UltraLock™ clock system, and HPA2™ headphone amplifier. and later on down the page it says
The USB interface of the DAC1 USB features Benchmark's unique AdvancedUSB technology. This USB interface is completely bit-transparent. In other words, every sample of digital audio is transferred from the computer to the DAC1 USB without modification. The DAC1 USB is natively compatible with Windows 7/Vista/XP/2000 and Mac OS X. As a native device, there are no drivers or other invasive software required to install or configure. The DAC1 USB is a true plug-and-play DAC USB, and is designed to begin playback immediately after the unit is connected to a USB port for the first time.

Unlike previous native USB audio interfaces, Benchmark's AdvancedUSB Audio technology supports 24-bit audio at sample-rates up to 96 kHz. It is very important to have a 24-bit USB path, even for 16-bit playback, because certain computer-related functions can increase 16-bit audio to 24 bits. If a 16-bit USB DAC is used, 8 bits of every digital audio sample would be truncated. Truncating digital audio causes severe, non-musical digital distortion. Benchmark's AdvancedUSB interface ensures a full 24-bit digital audio path to avoid truncation distortion.

If it can do 24/192 does it require proprietary drivers, or is it just that the chipset is capable of 24/192 and it's not used in Benchmark's implementation ? :scratch:

[alfie2902]

I think it means AES/EBU and S/PDIF is capable of handling 24-bit data with sample rates of up to 192kHz, but USB is limited to sample rates up to 96kHz only.

Benchmark chose to use a USB 1.1 port rather than the more modern and much faster USB 2.0 (which is backward-compatible with USB 1.1), because then the D/A could be used without the host computer having to run a custom driver program, and Benchmark could thus control communication to allow the transmission of bit-transparent high-resolution data. USB 1.1 has a maximum transmission rate of 12Mbps, which is sufficient for two channels of 24/96 data.

[Krisbee]

Actualy what I wrongly quoted was the USB limit for the Audiolab 8200 CDQ input - I should have said "24/96khz".

Nowhere in the audiolab 8200 CDQ manual is there mentioned a need to download special OS drivers. No special OS drivers are needed even though the USB is quoted as Asychronous and so the CDQ can be used with Linux as well as Windows/Mac. This is a bit like the MF V-link USB to S/PDIF convertor. The software to make this work is in the device's firmware as opposed to a driver loaded in the operating system.

In contrast, Young DAC is not usable outside of Windows/Mac as the product requires special OS drivers to work. Of course, the Young DAC supports higher resolution file formats.

This doesn't make any of the audiolab products superior to the Young DAC but it is just a point of difference.

[oldson]

AFAIK generic (Windows/Mac OS) system drivers will only give out 16/48 maximum.
In order to play back back increased bit depth, and increased sample rates to have to use proprietary drivers.

So the above quoted statement is AFAIK incorrect.

This of course does not mean that 24/192 files will not play over a USB connection using generic drivers, it just means that DSP will be employed to adjust bit depth and sample rate.

i am using win7.
in the " sound, spdif, properties,advanced tab..... the drop down menu allows to select "2ch,24bit,192000hz,studio quality"
this is the setting i use for foobar.
i have to reduce it to 48000hz for youtube,etc.
i am confused ,as i know very little about computers .
could you explain?
cheers

were you refering only to usb?

[oldson]

Actualy what I wrongly quoted was the USB limit for the Audiolab 8200 CDQ input - I should have said "24/96khz".

Nowhere in the audiolab 8200 CDQ manual is there mentioned a need to download special OS drivers. No special OS drivers are needed even though the USB is quoted as Asychronous and so the CDQ can be used with Linux as well as Windows/Mac. This is a bit like the MF V-link USB to S/PDIF convertor. The software to make this work is in the device's firmware as opposed to a driver loaded in the operating system.

In contrast, Young DAC is not usable outside of Windows/Mac as the product requires special OS drivers to work. Of course, the Young DAC supports higher resolution file formats.

This doesn't make any of the audiolab products superior to the Young DAC but it is just a point of difference.

when you say the young is not usable outside of windows/mac, you do refer to usb? or am i even thicker than i thought i was?:scratch:

[Stratmangler]

i am using win7.
in the " sound, spdif, properties,advanced tab..... the drop down menu allows to select "2ch,24bit,192000hz,studio quality"
this is the setting i use for foobar.
i have to reduce it to 48000hz for youtube,etc.
i am confused ,as i know very little about computers .
could you explain?
cheers

were you refering only to usb?

I was referring to USB.
Having read the specification on the Benchmark DAC I now know different to my last posting regarding USB, and your comment about the S/PDIF on your computer answers another question that the Benchmark DAC spec raised, namely which sources can output 24/192000 into a DAC over S/PDIF.

Confused ?
I was until just now.

[Stratmangler]

when you say the young is not usable outside of windows/mac, you do refer to usb? or am i even thicker than i thought i was?:scratch:

I think this does refer to USB only.

[oldson]

i will always be confused, where the numbers are concerned.
have asked Keith for a home trial on the young.
part of me hopes that it sounds no better than my stagedac, via spdif.
but i want to be able to play hires in the future.
so from what i am to understand, usb is the way forward!!!!?!

would liked to have trialled the cdq at same time, but not possible.

[Stratmangler]

i will always be confused, where the numbers are concerned.
have asked Keith for a home trial on the young.
part of me hopes that it sounds no better than my stagedac, via spdif.
but i want to be able to play hires in the future.
so from what i am to understand, usb is the way forward!!!!?!

would liked to have trialled the cdq at same time, but not possible.

Page 24 of the manual is interesting reading http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/Young%20user%20manual%201-0.pdf
The Young will also accept 24/192000 over S/PDIF too, and also over optical under certain conditions.
Which means you'll be able to try optical against USB, which will be interesting.

[oldson]

Page 24 of the manual is interesting reading http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/Young%20user%20manual%201-0.pdf
The Young will also accept 24/192000 over S/PDIF too, and also over optical under certain conditions.
Which means you'll be able to try optical against USB, which will be interesting.

not too fussed on optical, i mainly use coax.
looking forward to the trial :)
my wallet is dreading it though;)