Dual CS505 any good?

[ledgie]

Got back into vinyl about a year ago and have been using a cheap Technics TT connected to a Technics A700 amp. Been enjoying picking up charity shop bargains and the whole ritual of playing a record. I have been looking to upgrade the TT and have been looking at a SL1210.

Due to holidays coming up and planned building work I might have to reduce my budget. I could probably still pick up a 1210 but it would probably be poor cosmetically and need a new cartridge. Anyway, I've been offered an immaculate Dual CS505 TT with Audio Technica AT110E cartridge for £60. I'm tempted as it is a lot cheaper and will definitely be a bit of a step up from the turntable I'm using.

Interested on anyone's thoughts on this.

[hifi_dave]

The Dual probably won't sound any better than your Technics. I would suggest you continue saving for a 1210 or s/hand Rega.

[ledgie]

Thanks Dave. What's an AT110E worth? I thought this would be a decent step up from the stock Technics cartridge on my current turntable.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Gary

The AT110E is great little budget cart ! Might be worth buying , what Technics TT have you got ?

[ledgie]

Hi Chris,

It's a cheap and cheerful SL-J110R I picked up on eBay purely to play a couple of records I had. I would imagine most things would count as an improvement! ;-)

[Beobloke]

I was holding off as you didn't say which Technics you had, but if it's an SL-J110R then I'd buy the Dual.

Also, you can't change the Technics' cartridge for anything other than another P-mount type, so the AT110E won't fit.

[Theo]

If you can spend no more than £60 on a t/t, then the Dual is absolutely fine: it's just a bit limited in it's aspirations. I had one for a couple of years, but a Rega Planar 3 was significantly more communicative.

[keiths]

There's a Technics SL1500 on ebay at the moment (£25 with 3 days to go) that would be an improvement over the Dual in my opinion.

[DSJR]

The SL1500 is WONDERFUL as long as the arm bearings don't rattle (both mine did but easily sorted with great care), the headshell is replaced with a modern one like a Sumiko or vintage ADC with better wiring (the Sumiko wires and other Litz type are available on ebay for well under £20), and the deck MUST be mounted carefully, probably bypassing the awful feet and directly coupling the fixing screws to a granite slab or similar heavy mount via upward facing spikes or possibly replacing the feet with very long screws gently pressing against the top casting (inside) and the heavy base outside. The tonearm is massier and hopefully therefore more rigid than the current 1200 series stock arms and I've tried all sorts in mine with no trouble at all. The arm height is fixed and if you use an alternative headshell, a thick mat is mandatory - or placing summat else on top of the standard one, as I do. All that both the SL1500's needed in addition was to clean the main switch and four adjustment pots with switch cleaner/lubricant spray and add loads of EP80 gear oil to the main bearing. I'm sure the bearing is fine with thinner types of oil, but both Alex's 1500 and my current one ran more quietly still - especially mine as we were able to get at the thrust pad and spindle-bottom and flood the locating "ring" area with oil so the tip ran in a clingy oil bath. Oh yeah, although I once rated the standard wiring, replacing this with something cheap but better (Van Damme in my case), opened up the sonics no end I thought, in terms of better reproduction of reverb and high frequency timbres, appearing to reduce the negative smeary effects of worn records and nasty sibilants on one or two.

Regarding Duals, the 505 series had thinner, flimsier deck plates to the 701 and earlier models, the motor was, if anything, too powerful for the lightweight platter, so vibration breakthrough could be a problem if you were unlucky. More serious, the tonearm had so much mass shaved off it was resonant with anything other than a very highly compliant cartridge design. the AT110 will work, but nowhere near it's best, whereas had the original owner replaced the Ortofon/Dual with an OM20 stylus, they'd have had a better sound IMO. By the way, the OM20 is about as far as this series of decks can go and even the final ones with AT95E's in them weren't much better if at all. The final nail in the 505 coffin for me was that a £200 CD player from the late 80's actually sounded better, the Dual sounding even more scrappy and "rough." Sorry about the hatchet job, but I knew them well.

By the way, Thorens TD150's and 160's can still be got for under a ton, but you'll need to know something about springy sub chassis' setup and if you get this wrong, the things will sound pants, as a badly set up LP12 does.... ;)

[ledgie]

Thanks for all the advice. I think I will try and get the SL1500 off eBay and take it from there!

[chris@panteg]

ATB in finding one Gary , let us know how you get on , Dave ' what's the most he should bid for one ?

With a bit of luck it might have a decent cartridge come it , just don't get sucked in to a crazy bidding war!

[keiths]

I paid £35 for mine - bit it was missing its mat and headshell. It was also untested and was sold as "not working or for parts".

I'd say pay no more than £70 - 80 for the example currently on eBay.

[DSJR]

ATB in finding one Gary , let us know how you get on , Dave ' what's the most he should bid for one ?

With a bit of luck it might have a decent cartridge come it , just don't get sucked in to a crazy bidding war!

I agree about not bidding silly money (over a ton) for one of these, as there are a few about (the later 1300/1400/1500mk2's had the quartz locking of the current one and there is now someone advertising a fix for the cueing-device failure they suffer from) and Technics haven't carried spare parts for these for donkey's years now.

Once dealt with as I've suggested, it's actually a very good deck, the SOLE issue really being the isolation/feedback one, as a fettled main bearing is dead silent, wow and flutter, speed issues/servo hunting/dynamic wow just don't exist with any cartridge tracking at 2g or less and it's such a joy to use I think. The looks are timeless too.

[ledgie]

I didn't get that 1500. It went for 92 plus postage.

I think I'll hang on and get the 1210 that I really want! ;) I just need to be patient and wait for the right one at the right price. :cool:

Thanks guys!

[chris@panteg]

You should be able to get a decent 1210 for under 200 , don't forget to check 2nd hand list's from dealer's , i do think the AT110E would still be an excellent cartridge for you though Gary .

[ledgie]

Thanks Chris.

Can you recommend any good 2nd hand dealers?

[chris@panteg]

Thanks Chris.

Can you recommend any good 2nd hand dealers?

I think this guy is pretty good , Paul Greenfield .

http://www.classiquesounds.co.uk/turntable.htm

He has had a few 1200/1210's for sale around £195 , I'm sure he could find you one :)

[DSJR]

The SL1200/1210 still has thousands of parts out there and will make a FAR better long term choice if this is to be your main turntable for the foreseeable future... The proper upgrade path has already been mapped out for you too, with a variety of suppliers touting for your money, so this reallhy would be the best option.

Don't give up on "proper" Duals though. There are a good many of the better idler drive changers they made and these make superb manual decks. Some spares are available too, mainly from the US, but as long as the mechs are fettled (VERY gentle on the arm and stylus), the motor and idler are working properly and the signal exit leads are updated, I think you'd be rather surprised how capable they are.

[Stefaan]

FWIW, I'm quite pleased with my CS 505-4 / OM 20 combination.

Stefaan

[DSJR]

PLEASE try to find a 1218/1219/1229 and possibly even a 1216, as the superior heavier duty construction would have audible benefits IMO. The arms are not hugely rigid on these (the headshell fixings can be microphonic on some cartridges), but the OM20 and above will be a marriage made in heaven IMO, as are current AT MM's and most of the better Shures old and new ;). The 1216 was a cheaper deck with smaller platter and simpler arm, but with a similar mech underneath and sounded fantastic with a Shure M75-ED. Should you or anyone else get one, a steurpimpel check (:eyebrows:) and an M75-SAS stylus would probably make a real idler driven giant killer, which will gently put the arm on and take it off again at the end, as your 505 does (similar links and bits).....