Going active

[John]

Anyone have any thoughts or experiences of this. I wa thinking of a long time upgrade path going active might even take thing further
http://tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/minidsp_e.html
I could use two Bantam golds or 4 mono blocks
Its a long term plan but just wondering peoples thoughts

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Doesn't look overly expensive!
I'd give it a go!
Since we moved office I have taken along my modded dyns with the four channel amp and crossover ... I reckon they sound better than they did with passive crossovers ...

[aquapiranha]

I was looking at the miniDSP a while ago while pondering my next project (which would likely be actively driven Tannoy MG's or maybe Great Plains Audio 604/3's again driven actively and in a large :lol: DIY enclosure) but that is on the back burner now until I get a job..

As Hamish I think it would be VERY interesting, and I particularly like the way you can adjust the XO using a laptop / PC.

If you decide to egt one, you MUST put your experiences on here so we can all benefit! :lol:

Thanks, Steve

EDIT. Forgot to mention I made some OB's and ran them active using a four channel Sure 2050 board and a Rane active XO and they were ace!

[anthonyTD]

hi john,
active cross-overs are in theory a better way as you deal with the crossover points for each speaker drive unit actively before the power amps ie; low level signal rather than the usual way of using large passive components with all their [mostly] undesireable traits directly before the speaker drive units themselves. of course a big part will be down to the design of the active/crossover filter itself, and they can be tricky to set up and difficult to get them sounding right, but when you manage it and thus do away with the passive components in the high current side of the signal path, it can pay off big time!
I have experienced the effects of this type of set up first hand, however' its a rather more expensive way to go, and for this reason alone most people will not' or cant justify its merits.
IMHO you will have to experience it for yourself and decide whether its for you or not.
Anthony,TD...

[John]

Lol
I think the mini DSP route and using some Gold Bantams might be a good experiment for the future
I like the idea of controlling this via a laptop
The reviews look very encouraging and feedback on other forums seem to be positive

[Reid Malenfant]

Get yourself a Behringer DCX24/96 end of story.. Everything built in, tons of different crossover slopes. Time delay, you name it it has it..

You'd only need the one for a two way setup & if you ever fancied it you could add a supertweeter as they'll do 3 way stereo.

I just got a second one recently & i'll be swapping out the analogue Behringers for the DCX. Have a chat with Ali as he uses one on his OBs :)

[John]

Thank another to add to the list. Both seem good options It might hearing and getting a ene which i easier to use

[Ali Tait]

Yep, quite right Mark. John, I think there is something to be said for going active. I'm using a dcx2496 with a pair of Bantam Golds to drive my OB's. I think the best way to describe the sound is to say that I had a forum member round last weekend to have a listen. I think he was rather taken with the speakers, as he's thinking about selling his Spendors and building a copy of the OB's, with probably several hundred quid in change!

[John]

Its not that my sound is bad: anything but.
Howard came around a few week ago and he said it was one of the best systems in the country and he has heard a lot of systems. Going active is one of the few ways I can think might improve it further
Good to hear the Bantam gold work well in this type of set up
Cheers

[Ali Tait]

Good thing is it won't cost you a fortune to try it John, a 2496 can be had on the bay for about 150 quid, and you know what the bantams cost.

[Mike g]

Yep, quite right Mark. John, I think there is something to be said for going active. I'm using a dcx2496 with a pair of Bantam Golds to drive my OB's. I think the best way to describe the sound is to say that I had a forum member round last weekend to have a listen. I think he was rather taken with the speakers, as he's thinking about selling his Spendors and building a copy of the OB's, with probably several hundred quid in change!

'twas I and tis true...

[HighFidelityGuy]

The (theoretical) problem I have with digital crossovers is that they require you that have an ADC and extra DAC in the signal path. So if you use a digital source, your audio signal is going through two DACs and one ADC. I've found that changing DAC models and/or performing modifications to DACs has given me some of the biggest improvements in sound quality I've experienced. So the thought of adding an extra DAC as well as an ADC seems almost like making two steps back to make one step forward. :scratch:

One solution to this would be to use an analogue active crossover but they usually use opamps which is something else I have a problem with. :doh: Marchand Electronics (http://www.marchandelec.com/) make a range of active and passive analogue line level crossovers that don't use opamps. Some even use valves. They are all rather expensive though due to their complexity. :(

Another slightly crazy option would be to find a digital crossover that had digital inputs and outputs and then use multiple high quality DAC's. That is quite OTT though. :eek:

A much simpler option would be to use the AES/EBU input on a DCX2496 and then use this as the only DAC in the signal path. The only downsides to that are that not many sources have AES/EBU outputs and you would be stuck with the sound characteristics of the DCX2496's DAC, whatever they might be. I guess it may be possible to feed the AES/EBU input with SPDIF though. :confused:

Now I must admit that I've never tried putting anything like the DCX2496 or miniDSP in my Hi-Fi, so I don't know how much of a detrimental effect the ADC/DAC stages have on the sound. :confused:

The reason I mention all this is that "going active" is something I've considered trying in the past but I kept on thinking up these theoretical problems that put me off. So I'm hoping that some of these "problems" can be commented on by people who have tried active crossovers. Hopefully this will be of use to John as well. :)

EDIT: After taking a closer look at the Marchand crossovers it looks like they do use opamps with the exception of the valve model (http://www.marchandelec.com/xm26.html), so I take that comment back. :doh:

[John]

I know Ali uses a DAC so presume not an issue. I tend to be thinking more towards the Mini DSP but be nice to hear both in action

[Reid Malenfant]

<snip> The (theoretical) problem I have with digital crossovers is that they require you that have an ADC and extra DAC in the signal path. So if you use a digital source, your audio signal is going through two DACs and one ADC. I've found that changing DAC models and/or performing modifications to DACs has given me some of the biggest improvements in sound quality I've experienced. So the thought of adding an extra DAC as well as an ADC seems almost like making two steps back to make one step forward. :scratch:

The reason I mention all this is that "going active" is something I've considered trying in the past but I kept on thinking up these theoretical problems that put me off. So I'm hoping that some of these "problems" can be commented on by people who have tried active crossovers. Hopefully this will be of use to John as well. :)
I think you are worrying about the wrong thing Dave :eyebrows: Yes admittedly there would be a DAC & ADC in the signal path, but these are both 24bit 96KHz, way above CD quality :) Yes there are op-amps on the output...

But in all honesty even with the above the sound quality will go through the roof even with these problems you are having with the kit, simply because you'll be removing the passive crossover. You just wouldn't believe the way they mess up the music, even a very well designed one!

Ok so while you might be adding 0.003% distortion due to the crossover, you'll be removing something that can generate well over 1% :lol:

Lets not forget that you can accurately time align the drive units which is next to impossible when passive xovers are used. You can also run steeper filters which could be Linkwitz/Riley filters for perfect phase integration, again try that passive :doh:

So maybe you are thinking about the wrong thing here is all i'm saying. Next time you listen to your system & turn it up a bit, remember that 1% distortion which you are totally used to hearing & try & imagine it gone :cool:

[Ali Tait]

Yep, have to agree. I cannot detect anything detrimental to the sound, and in fact it sounds superb, especially considering the low price of the amps used. Perhaps Mike could comment in more detail what he thought about what he heard?

[HighFidelityGuy]

I think you are worrying about the wrong thing Dave :eyebrows: Yes admittedly there would be a DAC & ADC in the signal path, but these are both 24bit 96KHz, way above CD quality :) Yes there are op-amps on the output...

But in all honesty even with the above the sound quality will go through the roof even with these problems you are having with the kit, simply because you'll be removing the passive crossover. You just wouldn't believe the way they mess up the music, even a very well designed one!

Ok so while you might be adding 0.003% distortion due to the crossover, you'll be removing something that can generate well over 1% :lol:

Lets not forget that you can accurately time align the drive units which is next to impossible when passive xovers are used. You can also run steeper filters which could be Linkwitz/Riley filters for perfect phase integration, again try that passive :doh:

So maybe you are thinking about the wrong thing here is all i'm saying. Next time you listen to your system & turn it up a bit, remember that 1% distortion which you are totally used to hearing & try & imagine it gone :cool:


Yep, have to agree. I cannot detect anything detrimental to the sound, and in fact it sounds superb, especially considering the low price of the amps used. Perhaps Mike could comment in more detail what he thought about what he heard?

Thanks chaps. :) Your arguments make sense and seem valid, so I guess I'll have to give it a go and hear for my self. :cool:

The miniDSP stuff does look good and the price seems reasonable. I'll be interested to see how you get on John with whatever active crossover you decide to try. I don't think I'll be trying this for a few months as I have some other tweaks in progress. :eyebrows: I also fancy trying some Temple Audio mono blocks, so if you decide to them I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. :)

[Clive]

John,

My guess is that by going active you'll end up with a sound from your Hawthornes which is close to the Bastanis, which have to all intents and purposes no crossover. Whether this is the sound you are seeking is another matter!

[Reid Malenfant]

Thanks chaps. :) Your arguments make sense and seem valid, so I guess I'll have to give it a go and hear for my self. :cool:

The miniDSP stuff does look good and the price seems reasonable. I'll be interested to see how you get on John with whatever active crossover you decide to try. I don't think I'll be trying this for a few months as I have some other tweaks in progress. :eyebrows: I also fancy trying some Temple Audio mono blocks, so if you decide to them I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. :)
Hi Dave, having had a good think about it I'd attempt to make sure that the drivers in your speakers have a flat response accross there bandwidth. You'll often find that multiway speakers (two way more than any) tend to have a rising response in the upper midrange (due to the bass/mid going into breakup mode) & this is often catered for by careful use of crossover components to get the required rolloff.

Now while i know that the DCX2496 has loads of EQ settings that could mimic this, i wouldn't be too sure about the other device as at the end of the day it's down to processing power. Something also tells me that the OP electronics will only likely deal with a 2 way system, unless you purchase a pair. The DCX will happily cope with a 3 way system in stereo or a 6 way in mono :eyebrows:

[nat8808]

The (theoretical) problem I have with digital crossovers is that they require you that have an ADC and extra DAC in the signal path. So if you use a digital source, your audio signal is going through two DACs and one ADC. I've found that changing DAC models and/or performing modifications to DACs has given me some of the biggest improvements in sound quality I've experienced. So the thought of adding an extra DAC as well as an ADC seems almost like making two steps back to make one step forward. :scratch:



A thought experiment to put this into perspective though is if the artist themselves used a piece of gear with an extra ADC/DAC chain in or the studio engineer or the mastering engineer - would you complain or refuse to buy the album?

Anything recorded and mastered these days will go through numerous ADC/DACs in out-board gear like reverb units, in and out of a digital desk ironically to some analogue outboard gear that sounds "so analogue".. Would one more ADC/DAC chain make a difference?

Still - I take your point that it makes a mockery of having a good DAC as your source in the first place!

[HighFidelityGuy]

A thought experiment to put this into perspective though is if the artist themselves used a piece of gear with an extra ADC/DAC chain in or the studio engineer or the mastering engineer - would you complain or refuse to buy the album?

Anything recorded and mastered these days will go through numerous ADC/DACs in out-board gear like reverb units, in and out of a digital desk ironically to some analogue outboard gear that sounds "so analogue".. Would one more ADC/DAC chain make a difference?

Still - I take your point that it makes a mockery of having a good DAC as your source in the first place!

You make a valid point. Looking at it like that it doesn't seem like much of an issue but like you say it does seem to make a mockery of having a good DAC if you're going to then put a potentially less good DAC in the signal path after it. I guess the important thing is that you get as much fine detail out of the recording as possible at the beginning of the signal chain. Then if you loose a bit of detail in the later parts of the chain it will be less of an issue and hopefully the advantages you gain from the lack of passive crossovers will outweigh the loss of detail caused by the processing. I guess that's the general idea. :scratch:

[Ali Tait]

Well all I can say is my OB's driven by a pair of Bantam Golds through a DCX2496 sound very good, and it's easy to tell the difference between the two dacs I can use on the end of my Squeezebox Touch, in fact the system is very transparent to any change made.

[John]

Ali what are they like with rock guitar This is very critical for me

[Ali Tait]

What? the OB's? or the Behringer?

[John]

Together

[Ali Tait]

They sound great with all kinds of music to my ears John. What I think the active part of the system brings to the party is a more immediate and involving sound. It just seems to grab your attention more than a passive system does. I was listening to some Placebo earlier, at a rather high volume. Sounded great! I could feel the kick drum in my chest.

[John]

I already get kick drums in my chest. my system is very similar to Marco in presentention except for what dipole bass sounds like

[Ali Tait]

Not heard Marco's system yet. You already run with two amps yes? all you need is the Behringer, which are not expensive secondhand on the bay, and if you don't like the result, you'll be able to sell it on with little or no loss.

[John]

That is probarly what will swing it in the end, that everything is selleable and I should not lose to much money the Bantams have 60 days return polcy and the xover be no issue to shift

[Ali Tait]

Aye, but you could try it with the amps you already have could you not? All you'd need is the Behringer. That would give you an idea if it's worth pursuing.

[Clive]

Aye, but you could try it with the amps you already have could you not? All you'd need is the Behringer. That would give you an idea if it's worth pursuing.
Good advice from Ali; I suspect John you should find out if you want the directness active amplification can bring.

[Ali Tait]

That's a good word for it Clive- directness. TBH John, I think you will like what it will do.

[Ali Tait]

One ending tomorrow John-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Behringer-DCX2496-Pro-Speaker-Management-System-/160599081031?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item2564738047#ht_668wt_1139

[Ali Tait]

You need XLR to RCA adapters though if you run single-ended.

[John]

Cheers I still might go down the mini DSP route
I still not made up my mind but this is a long term project I learned not to rush into something like this

[Ali Tait]

Just a thought John, if you're going to make it to Owston and can bring your speakers, I could bring the Golds and the Behringer.

[John]

I am starting a new job on Monday if I have the time off I will attend Its shift work so do not have as much control. but that sounds like a very interesting idea

[Ali Tait]

Coll. Let me know.

[Epiphany Acoustics]

Interesting thread!

I'm doing a similr thing at the moment. I've bought all the bits for the 4 channels of amplification and will plug them into a Studiomaster A1 to determine the C/O frequency before building making the Linkwitz Riley crossover.

It should sound fantastic!

[Ali Tait]

Let us know how you get on, and how you think it compares to passive. I've never actually heard my OB's passive so cannot compare.

[John]

The difference for me with the OB was when I changed from a passive pre amp to an active preamp, the extra gain gave that drive my listening tastes demands, before it was a little bit polite then suddenly it got rude in a good way, in that it brought me closer to the drama of the music

[Ali Tait]

Going active will give you even more of that John.

[John]

That would be my hope

[John]

Reading over the posts on another thread ref sound I think I stick with the valve amp I am having some work done to the Valve amp which should help it with how quickly it eat valves and improve sound further
Perhaps some point in the future I hear some actives and it give me the confidence to go ahead