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View Full Version : And old Shure joins the SAS



Gromit
03-06-2011, 12:33
Apologies in advance for pasting this off another forum, but I'm going to put more effort into telling this little story on here, and of course report on how tihs little beauty develops as it runs in.

So, going back to this wednesday (1st June)...

I'd been umming and ahhh'ing over getting a SAS stylus for some time now, mostly putting it off but decided to bite the bullet a couple of weeks ago. Jico were brilliant to deal with, and with the stylus arriving from Japan just this morning, only about 10 days after me ordering, I can't recommend their service highly enough.

Fitting it is obviously just a case of sliding it into the place on the 75's body and lining it up. The cantilever is a lot thinner (and longer) than the OEM Shure one, being made of a boron rod, and the tip itself is tiny!

As to how it now sounds, first impressions are just that, but they're all pretty favourable to be honest. Of course it's just running in at the moment so we're tracking it near the top end of its range (1.4g out of a possible 1.5) so all may not be optimum for the time being.

The sound is powerful, clean (especially at the top with that rather trick stylus tip) and ballsy and much more colourful than the DL110 I had in place previously. Will report back a little more when it's run in and I've had chance to have a fiddle with settings.

Ickle picky...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5742.jpg

As you can see from above, the cantilever seriously thin, and the tip is almost invisible.

Going on to yesterday (thursday)...

Today I've had a lot more time to sit and evaluate how the Jico's sounding. Probably about 15 hours on the thing now, and it's loosened up in a big way - every couple of hours I've popped the DL110 back to use as a baseline or 'control' cartridge (oh the joys of detachable headshells!) and each time the gap in sound has widened.

The SAS is fast, quite mid-forward (I like that though - it gives instruments and percussion a more cut) and with a wealth of musical detail. The 110's a fine little cartridge, and a bargain at its new price, but the SAS 75ED is a significant upgrade on it to my ears, and for what I look for in a cartridge. I don't 'do' soundstage/imagery but the Shure has a more expansive, out-of-box presentation. Its ace card though is its dynamism and energy - not up to Decca standards but it does somehow present music with enthusiasm, and unlike the Decca it isn't anywhere near as fussy about pressing/recording quality. Of course I'd take a Decca any day of the week over the Shure (as I would an SPU when matched and phono-staged correctly) but the Jico has won me over big style.

Its sound could be summarised as fun, quite bright, packing real detail (not implied by adding false shimmer at the top end though) and with lots of drive and energy. Very low background noise, and extremely clean on previously slightly sibilant recordings.

Some of the records used today, to give some idea of the Jico's versatility:

Bob Florence Limited Edition: Magic Time
Grace Jones: Nighclubbing
Vaughan Williams: Symphonies No.3 & 6 (Thomson/LSO)
Vaughan Williams: Violin Concerto (slow movement, same band as above)
Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit (Perlemuter on Nimbus)
Mussorgsky/Ravel: Pictures from an Exhibition (Philadelphia/Muti)
Depeche Mode: Violator
Weather Report: Night Passage
Pink Floyd: The Final Cut.

Friday 3/6...

Did a fair amount of listening into the late evening yesterday but now just sat down to spin some choons again. Trying not to fall into the hyperbole trap but this cartridge just sounds huge, and has really lifted the lid on what the 401 is now capable of and clearly it is a dream match for the SME - the sound's just so full of life, as though the brakes have been released, but still retains that 'old' cartridge sound ie one which isn't bleached out tonally and just makes music sound fun.

The soundstage has opened up further, and listening to my old Bert Kaempfert 'Bye Bye Blues' lp (original mint pressing no less!) the layout of BK's orchestra is spacious, wide and allows one to hear right into the mix. Along with the Decca and the SPU this cartridge is the first one which has been able to differentiate between BK's trademark plecked bass guitar and the double bass which both occupy different parts of the sonic stage. Freddy Moch's trumpet's full of power, and there's no break-up on heavily modulated peaks (no compressio on this recording oh no!!). When the French Horns go from open to stopped there's a proper feeling of shut-down, unlike what was a slightly 2-dimensional presentation before.

More and more evidence that there's nowt new under the sun...and a 35 year old cartridge (with a posh tip admittedly) can kick some *rse. It rocks! :)

DSJR
03-06-2011, 12:41
Sincere thanks for that. I'm seriously considering getting a SAS stylus for my V15V and going back to the Dual 701 (I'll keep the Microscanner though)..

I have what appears to be a Jico N91ED stylus (similar to the 75-ED but deeper frontal fixing). The output is higher than the Shure original and there's far more "presence" too, but I was worried about detail differences, such as the lack of a tie-wire preventing the cantilever's back and forth tendencies when playing. Also, the Shure magnet assembly is diamond shaped when viwed head-on and the Jico is cylindrical. I haven't a clue of this makes any real difference at all, but it was a worry.

Maybe I should take my own advice and stop being so anal about it all. The SAS diamond itself does look to be a work of art and the price rise wasn't as horrific as I thought it might be.

Gromit
03-06-2011, 12:47
Dave - on the evidence of what I'm hearing, I can recommend the SAS for your V15 without hesitation. Admittedly I don't have an OEM N75ED stylus for comparison purposes but my old 75ED (my first ever 'proper' cartridge no less) never sounded this good...then again it was in a PL12D...and it was 35 years ago. :lol:

This SAS was about 80 quid delivered so pretty damn fine value I think. :)

DSJR
03-06-2011, 12:53
That's cheap!!! Without checking, is this the price for a 75-SAS?

I did have a good N-75ED, but the cantilever was brittle and fractured (a problem with "original" Shures with the small-diameter cantilever)

Thanks for the heads-up :)

Gromit
03-06-2011, 12:59
That's cheap!!! Without checking, is this the price for a 75-SAS?

I did have a good N-75ED, but the cantilever was brittle and fractured (a problem with "original" Shures with the small-diameter cantilever)

Thanks for the heads-up :)

No problem Dave. :)

I'll double-check my Paypal statements but I'm pretty sure that was the amount debited. Your'e right though it is cheap - the 75ED SAS comes up as $133 on the Jico website so would be about right.

Edit: Total was $142 which is £87 at today's rates.

chris@panteg
05-06-2011, 20:55
Hi Richard

Very glad you like the Jico SAS , I just love the one in my P22 and even with the price rise i think its good value , enjoy it.

Gromit
07-06-2011, 20:59
Hi Richard

Very glad you like the Jico SAS , I just love the one in my P22 and even with the price rise i think its good value , enjoy it.

Thanks Chris - I'm genuinely thrilled, it's digging up detail & information from the grooves which has left me slightly open-mouthed at times. The great thing though that rather than it just being an overly-bright, focred detail-fest (which some cartridges I've heard fall into the trap of doing) this just sounds effortless and, well, 'right' somehow.

chris@panteg
08-06-2011, 10:39
Thanks Chris - I'm genuinely thrilled, it's digging up detail & information from the grooves which has left me slightly open-mouthed at times. The great thing though that rather than it just being an overly-bright, focred detail-fest (which some cartridges I've heard fall into the trap of doing) this just sounds effortless and, well, 'right' somehow.

Richard , that's how i would describe it :) When i think of the money some carts cost and yet you can actually get performance like this for almost peanuts ! Well its a nice feeling .

dave2010
16-06-2011, 07:27
It amazes me that models of cartridges which I once had are still going, and being discussed here. They're not even the moving coil models which I could not afford, but merely aspire to. Do they really sound that good?

JohnM
17-06-2011, 14:26
Spurred on by Richard's enthusiastic post about this cartridge with the Jico stylus (and being impressed with my experience using a high quality stylus on the humble AT95E), I've purchased an M75EJ cartridge from the bay for the princely sum of £15. As I understand it, all 'Type 2' M75s have the same cartridge body, only differing in the various stylus's available. I believe mine is a medium tracking weight elliptical, whereas the M75ED came with a fancier & lighter tracking weight stylus:

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=551.0

Will order a Jico SAS stylus now to see what the fuss is about - by the time it arrives I should have a Technics SP-10 Mk.II to use it on :cool:

- John

DSJR
17-06-2011, 15:10
All the M75 series, the 91 series, and possibly the V15mk2, had similar bodies I understand, in the same way the M95 series was similar to the V15mk3 and the 97 series broadly similar to the V15mk4. All manner of different outer bodies were used and hundreds of different styli, based on a small number of similar moving parts were made at the time to feed them.

The M75-EJ (all were type 2's I believe, as the "type 2" seems to indicate the V15mk2 era they came from, the M95 was "Era III" and M97 series was "Era IV"). I could be talking total bollix on this point, but it sort-of ties in - the M75 did seem to have two styli "eras" though, so I could be wrong - the M75E became the better 75-ED once the V15 III came along...

The most universal M75 body is the one from the cheapo M75-6S, which used a metal bracket to fix the cartridge to the shell. This open fronted version will take all the 70/72?/75/91 and 93 styli and does so rather well IMO, as the 75 bodies can come adrift from the plastic moulding/mount.

I have an SAS on the agenda for next month, although a pair of Sowter trannies should take precedence (the ton-up Lentek is all very well, but it DOESN'T like the Stilton OC9 as there's little to no bass at all).

Has anyone here tried the SAS V15 styli? It looks as if rather more work goes into these than the standard and quite capable versions (which probably have better quality diamonds in any case, if not the tie-wire and thin-wall narrow diameter cantilever).

Gromit
17-06-2011, 16:24
John - hope you like it!! <sits biting nails, hoping he's not letting folk down> :eek:

The more I listen to this old cartridge (with admittedly new bits) the more I like it. It's hard to put into words in many ways, just that for me it sounds 'right' somehow. It has a huge long-session appeal (ie it just makes me want to listen to more and more records) and seems to make sense of musical phrase/light & shade/structure/dynamics which have eluded cartridges many times its price. On the right musical material it grooves like few others I've heard - it's hard to sit still at times. :stalks:

Of course in a different system it may not sing as well, perhaps not even to the taste of other ears, but for me it's represented a true bargain. Of course it doesn't have the wham-bam of a Decca, nor perhaps the charm, the ability to weave a spell like an SPU, but on so many records which have previously sounded rather matter-of-fact it's made me sit up when a musical phrase has made perfect sense all of sudden, causing responses such as 'well of course that chord progression works' or 'aaah...I hear what the muso's were trying to achieve there'.

Hearing an old Shure, in a 3009, on a 401, never sounded so good (or at least I've never heard it sound so good). :)

Tarzan
17-06-2011, 16:35
It amazes me that models of cartridges which I once had are still going, and being discussed here. They're not even the moving coil models which I could not afford, but merely aspire to. Do they really sound that good?

Oh yes and how! Slightly off topic, l use a £18 Stanton 520 on my Techie- l love it, so,so musical, midrange that is massive, high output, good on surface noise- but gets to the heart of the music:):):):)

JohnM
17-06-2011, 19:20
It has a huge long-session appeal (ie it just makes me want to listen to more and more records) and seems to make sense of musical phrase/light & shade/structure/dynamics which have eluded cartridges many times its price. On the right musical material it grooves like few others I've heard - it's hard to sit still at times. :stalks:

on so many records which have previously sounded rather matter-of-fact it's made me sit up when a musical phrase has made perfect sense all of sudden, causing responses such as 'well of course that chord progression works' or 'aaah...I hear what the muso's were trying to achieve there'.

I'd say to hell with the (relatively - inc. new stylus) budget price, if it stirs those feelings in you and is really involving you in the music then it's doing its job VERY well indeed - to heck with the snobby re-mortage the house priced carts I say ;)

From your description, I'd hazard a guess there may well be alnico magnets at play within the cartridge. Always seem to impart a very natural, full-bodied and organic sound - assuming the stylus is also up to the task - which eludes many so-called modern designs in the involvement stakes.

Damn I'm very eager to hear what it can do now - got to wait a few weeks before I can afford that Jico SAS stylus tho... ARGHHHHH!

P.S. We should keep these quiet - prices of Shure M3Ds/Goldring G800s are already going up on the bay (wonder why! :lolsign:) and I can see the same happening here!

WOStantonCS100
17-06-2011, 20:35
It may be too late for stuffing the cat back in the bag. This is one reason why I have also been wondering what the current production M44G series carts would sound like with a hi-fidelity cantilever/stylus in place of the DJ "tree trunk" assembly it comes with. Could it be another sleeper?

I also have an M111E which originally came with a .2 x .7 I'm really wondering what it would sound like with an upgraded cantilever/stylus. I think there are a lot of possibilities out there and alternatives; just takes a few brave souls to go where most don't go.

Gromit
17-06-2011, 21:01
It may be too late for stuffing the cat back in the bag. This is one reason why I have also been wondering what the current production M44G series carts would sound like with a hi-fidelity cantilever/stylus in place of the DJ "tree trunk" assembly it comes with. Could it be another sleeper?


Good call Biff - as another owner of a 44G I too wonder if this could be turned into a real gem with the addition of a posh tip from those clever chaps at Jico.

I've also got a Stanton 500 ALII sat in the drawer so may give that a whirl at some point. There's a spare Sukimo HS-12 sat near it with nothing to wear. :)

DSJR
18-06-2011, 20:12
I have the Ed Saunders M55E stylus - not sure (:)) where it hails from - and it's very good, but the tonal balance of these oldies is too treble recessed for me, although the basic quality is ok. An AT110e is better in bass quality and an AT120E eats it IMO.

Others have said that a SAS M75 rivals a V15 III (SAS or not, I don't know) in quality, but the main design improvements in the mk3 V15's was laminated pole pieces which flattened the response away from the treble recesses of previous Shures (physics apparently, not opinion). The standard diamond of the V15 III wasn't too well finished or polished and the HE was a lot better. An SAS V15 III should be a revelation I reckon, for me as a CD and Decca lover in any case.