View Full Version : 500 members - a small but significant milestone!
Well guys, that's us now reached our first 'milestone', as it were, since starting the forum last January.
It's a small achievement but we think a significant one, given the climate in which AOS was started where there were already a number of well-established audio forums and as such it was difficult to thrust this one 'into the limelight' with so much other competition and people having their favourite 'haunts'.
The forum is growing very nicely thanks to your help and support; indeed the level of activity The Art of Sound generates both in terms of actual posts written and overall 'hits' is quite astonishing considering the size of our membership and the forum's relative youth.
We will continue to develop AOS and try and give it a different flavour and 'feel' to other audio and music forums where you may also be a member. We have numerous plans in place to help us achieve our goals and so next year promises to be an exciting one. We're definitely going places fast!
We would like to use this as an opportunity for you to offer us your comments. It's inevitable that we'll get some things wrong as well as right, so please let us know what you like about AOS or what you dislike, and most importantly how you think the forum could be improved to better cater for your needs and make it feel more like a community.
There is a section on the forum for this purpose but no-one ever seems to use it. I can't believe that we're that perfect, so come on, let's hear what you think!! We will always act upon any useful suggestions. And please be as frank and honest as possible. As long as comments are constrictive, even if they are critical, we will respond positively.
I'm sure the other members of the management team will be along to offer their thoughts, so once again I'd just like to thank you all for your effort in supporting our efforts here on AOS :)
Marco.
Filterlab
03-10-2008, 08:49
Nice one. :)
I will just add that we have almost 20,000 posts too! Get typing some more, if we have 20,000 by Christmas day, Steve Toy will buy everyone a drink. ;)
Beechwoods
03-10-2008, 08:58
Brilliant news :) It's great to see the new people coming in through the Welcome forum too.
Do we have any idea how many folks have been active over the last few weeks? That'd be really interesting to see.
I'm looking forward to my pint in the AoS Arms come Christmas :)
Neil McCauley
03-10-2008, 10:40
We have numerous plans in place to help us achieve our goals and so next year promises to be an exciting one. Marco.
If I can help in someway, then please let me know. I'll give it my best shot. Really! Meanwhile congratulations.
Sincerely
Howard
PS
The Detroit Cobras are on the office i-Tunes system right now. The track Hot Dog (Watch me eat) is, err, somewhat distracting.
PPS
Tomorrow I am going to have a second listen to a prototype pair of active loudspeakers that gave an articulation superior to anything I have here - at a projected price of less than £3k. It consists of a 5 input controller with the 4 power amps built into the controller chassis into two lightweight cabinets. Apparently in the past week significant sonic improvements have been achieved!
Forum members, if interested, might be the first to hear.
---//---
Hi guys,
Thanks for your comments and your kind offer Howard, I'll see if I can come up with something different ;)
Beechy,
I'll have a look and see if I can pull out some stats, but you only have to look at the amount of 'views' the major threads get, and the fairly high amount of posts there is per week to realise we're really busy for a fairly small and relatively new forum. Our Google, Yahoo and MSN ratings have also shot up considerably, and the new members we're getting from these sources are proof of that. It's all good, mate!
I'm looking for some suggestions from someone though as to how we could improve the forum further. Come on chaps get your thinking hats on! :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
04-10-2008, 15:08
I was expecting the 500 mark to arrive in the summer but since coming back from France yesterday I notice that my email inbox is full of alerts telling me of new members all within the space of 5 days.
The summer lull (that I guess I wasn't expecting) is now over and we can really press on with a number of projects as well as watch this place grow.
It's all good. :)
It's an impressive number of members for such a young forum. :)
I'm looking forward to Steve buying us all that drink too! ;)
Hehe... And me! ;)
Well, we must be absolutely perfect and doing everything right as no-one's suggesting how we could improve the place! :)
Marco.
Mick Parry
06-10-2008, 21:25
Chaps
Well done.
I have to say I lurk a lot now a days but the standard of discussion on this forum is very high.
Better to have 500 good members than a load of morons.
Regards
Mick
Steve Toy
07-10-2008, 00:51
Well thanks Mick, always to the point, I really appreciate your input.
The hi-fi industry is hitting tough times like every other.
Our mission is to keep it alive through to when the good times come back.
Meanwhile lets enjoy the music as best we can through whatever medium is available to us and continue to push the boundaries of resolution and ensuing enjoyment factor.
Chaps
Well done.
I have to say I lurk a lot now a days but the standard of discussion on this forum is very high.
Better to have 500 good members than a load of morons.
Regards
Mick
Hi Mick,
I echo Steve's sentiments, and your comments are appreciated. We're trying to build something different and seem to be succeeding quite well. AOS will continue to be developed on a number of levels to keep it 'ahead of the game', as it were. We will get there slowly but surely.
If we were fortunate enough to have been around at the time when the old Naim forum 'disbanded' and started AOS with a core of popular and respected contributors like some other well-known forums did {wink, wink} AOS would now be huge. There just wasn't the same competition back then. It was (and is) much more difficult for us to grow and become successful in the current climate with so many other audio forums around, so we had to be a bit different in terms of discussion content and outlook, and particularly the way the forum was managed.
One thing we had in our favour was the experience Steve and I (and Rob to a lesser degree) had from previously contributing to other forums, so we learned from mistakes that were made and ensured that AOS would be immune from them, but we remain as pro-active and vigilant as ever in our desire to achieve the targets we set. There are plans in the pipeline, for example, that will expose the forum to a much wider audience ('legitimately'), so hopefully the membership will grow further as a result.
You're right, quality of membership is more important than quantity, although the latter helps the forum grow more as a community. We have some exceptionally knowledgeable contributors who don't appear on the bigger, well-established, forums and as such our members have access to information which isn't readily available elsewhere. This is part of what makes us different.
Anyway, old chap, it's good to hear from you again so please post more and lurk less in future!
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 09:44
...One thing we had in our favour was the experience Steve and I (and Rob to a lesser degree) had from previously contributing to other forums...
Yes, as far as hi-fi forums go I'd only been on HFC, Wigwam and Hi-Fi Corner (:lol:), however I've been on many other forums encompassing various subjects (three BMW 7 series forums, general banter pub forum, Honda Accord forum, two performance Volvo forums, Blu-ray forum, GSM forum, Lexus forum, Saab forum, high end watches forum etc etc) and I know how easily a forum can degenerate from being informative and polite to a load of people talking about poo and testacles. Luckily we have intelligent members here are consequently the discussions are wholesome. :)
There's always the initial questions of 'will people join?' and 'will people contribute?', but as Steve and Marco seem to know dozens of people within the hi-fi fraternity it was only a matter of getting the ball rolling. Of course Marco's various bannings from other forums serve as a great method of getting people to have a look at this one, and as this is clearly a very well thought out place in comparison to other forums (layout, subject clarity etc), those who have had a look and are really interested in hi-fi have stayed with us and contributed. As we set out to embrace all aspects of hi-fi without prejudice (I mean - a hi-fi forum administrator with a computer as a source, imagine!) we have lots of decent input from every point of view, new members are quick to recognise that it matters not what they're listening through and join in the discussions and keep contributing.
So hats off to Steve and Marco for envisaging the forum and sticking to the original formula, may our numbers grow qualitatively rather than quickly. :)
Yes, as far as hi-fi forums go I'd only been on HFC, Wigwam and Hi-Fi Corner, however I've been on many other forums encompassing various subjects (three BMW 7 series forums, general banter pub forum, Honda Accord forum, two performance Volvo forums, Blu-ray forum, GSM forum, Lexus forum, Saab forum, high end watches forum etc etc)
LOL! My apologies, Rob. I didn't mean to demean your level of experience on other forums. I was simply referring to the 'heyday' of hi-fi forums before such places like Wigwam, pfm and Zerogain existed. At one time there were only two that I knew of: the Naim forum and the Mana forum, both of which were before your time, young whippersnapper! :lol:
I think the Naim forum, for example, started around 1998, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong... I know the HFC forum existed then but the guys there were mostly into basic entry-level stuff which was not where I was at.
Hi-fi Corner? The least said about that the better!! :mental:
Of course Marco's various bannings from other forums serve as a great method of getting people to have a look at this one
I think there's some truth in that, and I don't mind in the slightest. I've learned a lot since then. It's tough sometimes being a 'celebrity', but what can you do? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Good to see Mick Parry here.
Yep he's been here a while, Andy :)
How do you feel this place compares with other forums where you're also a member? Be as frank and honest as you like! I respect your opinion.
Marco.
Steve Toy
07-10-2008, 10:54
Lets avoid an interforum slagfest though. Keep it constructive and if making any negative comments about other forums please be rather vague (;)) and don't specifically name them.
No-one's "slagging" any other forum as far as I can see, mate. There's not even a hint of it, nor would any be allowed :)
I don't think there's anything wrong with referring to other forums directly as long as it's relevant, which it was.
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 11:06
...at one time there were only two that I knew of: the Naim forum and the Mana forum, both of which were before your time, young whippersnapper! :lol:
Definitely you old fuddy duddy. :lol: I didn't get internet until 2002! :)
Hi-fi Corner? The least said about that the better!! :mental:
Hehehehehe :)
No-one's "slagging" any other forum as far as I can see, mate. There's not even a hint of it, nor would any be allowed :)
Definitely not, that's not our thing here in any way.
Steve Toy
07-10-2008, 11:13
I was just taking a little preventative action that's all. I could see the floodgates opening to that kind of thing if we were not careful.
Indeed. But I am ever-present, always with my fingers on the zapping buttons - there is no escape for the 'baddies'... ;)
Realistically, though, it's rarely a problem we experience here. Our current members and those joining us respect our ethos.
Rob,
I've been posting on audio forums since 2000 when I joined the old Naim forum. That's where I met the Toyster and we've been in love ever since! :lol:
But there are some who've been posting on forums for much longer than that. You missed the old days - it was a hoot!
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 11:29
I was just taking a little preventative action that's all. I could see the floodgates opening to that kind of thing if we were not careful.
Nah, we're on it like a rash. :)
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 11:30
I've been posting on audio forums since 2000 when I joined the old Naim forum. That's where I met the Toyster and we've been in love ever since! :lol:
Did they chat about wind-up record players back then? :D
Definitely you old fuddy duddy. I didn't get internet until 2002!
Was that around the same time you popped your cherry? :eyebrows: :lolsign:
;)
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 11:39
Was that around the same time you popped your cherry? :eyebrows: :lolsign:
Yeah, I was a late developer at 26! LOL! I'm happy to say that interesting event was many years earlier on the high school field trip to St. Moritz. ;) I have fond memories of Switzerland let me tell you. :D
Hey, maybe it's on You Tube somehere? :kiss:
Yeah, I was a late developer at 26!
S'ok, Steve was even later! :lol:
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 12:00
Hey, maybe it's on You Tube somehere? :kiss:
Mmm, that was 1990 mate, not many personal video recorders then apart from those massive VHS Panasonic cameras - they were really tricky to hide in a bedroom.
S'ok, Steve was even later! :lol:
I knew it! :D
Peter Stockwell
07-10-2008, 12:05
Did they chat about wind-up record players back then? :D
Yes, they did indeed, especially rubber band decks. That was the day they called themselves flat earthers and were proud of it. Somebody even devised a FEP scale. Yes, Flat Earth Points! In fact if you curious, you can take a look at pages 900 and something on the Naim forum and you'll see some familiar names.
bin jaw
Mmm, that was 1990 mate, not many personal video recorders then apart from those massive VHS Panasonic cameras - they were really tricky to hide in a bedroom.
I think I popped mine around the same time Channel 4 was born!
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 12:26
I think I popped mine around the same time Channel 4 was born!
Marco.
Yeah, I liked that spinning logo too. :D
Anyway, we're drifting somewhat.
Ah, '82; I remember it well: fifth year at school and parties in Glasgow with girls from Whitecraigs tennis club :)
Yes, this is most definitely 'thread drift'! Oi loikes it, though :eyebrows:
Anyway...
Yes, they did indeed, especially rubber band decks. That was the day they called themselves flat earthers and were proud of it. Somebody even devised a FEP scale. Yes, Flat Earth Points! In fact if you curious, you can take a look at pages 900 and something on the Naim forum and you'll see some familiar names.
Peter I remember it all too well, and what a load of old bollocks it was. The scary thing, like you say, was people took it seriously and were proud of how many bloody "FEPs" they had :mental:
I never really got the whole 'flat-earth' thing. I think it originated at a time before I got into serious hi-fi. If I'm right it was a 70s incarnation, n'est-ce pas? I used Naim gear in the days of the old Naim forum simply because at the time I liked how it sounded - nothing else. I didn't want to be labelled in any way or part of some silly 'club'. Do you remember that pfm was simply an extension of the flat-earth thing when it first started? How times have changed.
Even scarier, I think there are still 'folks around' (ahem ;)) who remain firmly entrenched in this peculiar mindset...
Marco.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 13:03
Ah, '82; I remember it well: fifth year at school and parties in Glasgow with girls from Whitecraigs tennis club :)
Ahhh, those naughty Glaswegian girls - heard all about them I have. ;)
Aye! And that's definitely a topic for 'Abstract Chat', only after midnight :eyebrows:
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
07-10-2008, 13:10
I never really got the whole 'flat-earth' thing. I think it originated at a time before I got into serious hi-fi. If I'm right it was a 70s incarnation, n'est-ce pas? I used Naim gear in the days of the old Naim forum simply because at the time I liked how it sounded - nothing else. I didn't want to be labelled in any way or part of some silly 'club'. Do you remember that pfm was simply an extension of the flat-earth thing when it first started? How times have changed.
There was a magazine that came out in the early 80s, might have been called the flat response, or something like that. I saw one or two issues. I believe that's where the flat earth malarkey started.
It's only fair to say that many that broke away to join pfm have come a long way in their audio journey, some even have latest generation iPods!
In fact, you could point a finger at me and say, "he's still trapped in that flat earth mind set", I still post on the Naim forum and pfm. Although, since having the CDS3/555PS demo, my glasses have lost their pink tint. If it's a choice between beautiful sound and coherent music with less beautiful sound, I know what I'd choose. BTW, the Teccie is getting talked up over on pfm, and getting less flak now.
I was never a mana maniac, tho' ;)
cheers
griffo104
07-10-2008, 13:45
Crikey some of this talk of furms takes me back. I was on the Naim forum around 99, I didn't own any Naim but the music section, especially the classical, was very good. I got told off for recommending a Magnum Dynalb tuner to someone in Canada, home of the great tuners. Next day a warning was on there stating the forum was for discussing Naim only, I never went back.
I tend to lurk here a little more. Not sure why but the way a certain other forum has been going I've stopped posting a lot there as well.
For me music is always important but you go to a forum to also discuss the gear, which I have an interest in, the same way drivers can enjoy driving AND the car itself.
This place seems quite relaxed but then wait until others come and spoil the party.
Of course due to forums I have a nice DD deck waiting for me in november, not a Technics yet but the price is right, which is going to be turned in to a very nice mono deck for my olde classical records.
If it wasn't for forums I wouldn't even think of doing something like that.
If you want to keep a forum doing what it should do then remember, it's about personal experience, likes, dislikes and discussing them - never lose a passion for something that's enjoyable. It's not about how something measures.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 13:49
...Next day a warning was on there stating the forum was for discussing Naim only, I never went back....
That's a shame, it's unnecessary stuff like that which demolishes a forum really quickly.
...This place seems quite relaxed but then wait until others come and spoil the party...
No chance, they'll be off before they even get started, we know who to watch out for. :)
If you want to keep a forum doing what it should do then remember, it's about personal experience, likes, dislikes and discussing them - never lose a passion for something that's enjoyable. It's not about how something measures.
Well said!
Peter Stockwell
07-10-2008, 14:09
The only Naim rule was just reiterated this morning by the mods. They are finding all the talk of Lavry Dacs over there, to be too much. i.e. It would appear that it's ok to mention something in passing, but not to be in favour of a non naim solution over a naim solution. It apears that LP12 talk is ok, because of the aro and the armageddon.
Anyway, it's a manufacturer's forum so it's not surprising and it's the way I'd would view it if I had a vested interest.
Hey Rob, just noticed you have an iMac, does it have a separate power supply like the mac mini, or does the kettle oe telefunken lead plus straight in. I want to get one, but Mrs user34 is rather attached to the mac mini, but I want to reduce clutter. (says me, who's just bought a drobo!)
cheers
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 14:14
I have an iMac which has its own onboard power supply, in fact the iMac is designed so that no cables are visible at all - they are routed down the back of the stand. On my desk is my iMac, an additional Apple 20" cinema display, a 7 port USB hub, iPhone dock, iPod dock and a wireless keyboard and wireless trackball - no cables show at all. :)
That's Apple for you - thinking of your wife. ;)
Peter Stockwell
07-10-2008, 14:37
Rob,
Got the bluetooth keyboard and mouse already, but surely if you go wireless keyboard and mouse then you lose the 2 USB ports on the keyboard ? (yes, you gain one on the back of the iMac). The bottom line iMac with extra memory (sourced other than apple) looks the ticket for me.
Filterlab
07-10-2008, 14:55
Rob,
Got the bluetooth keyboard and mouse already, but surely if you go wireless keyboard and mouse then you lose the 2 USB ports on the keyboard ? (yes, you gain one on the back of the iMac). The bottom line iMac with extra memory (sourced other than apple) looks the ticket for me.
You will lose the USB ports, but hubs are exceptionally cheap these days anyway. I'd order the extra memory to be built in to the iMac, for the slightly higher price you're guaranteed operating stability and compatibility. This is not the case with the HD though, Freecom are the pick of the crop for quality hard drives at the moment. :)
anthonyTD
07-10-2008, 16:21
hi all,
just like to say congrats to the AOS forum, and long may it prevail!
as many on here will know i dont do forums as a rule as i find it frustrating to read the dribble that ill informed and non technically minded individuals come out with on these sites on a regular basis. but i must say i am glad that i am a part of the AOS forum, and a big thanks to the guys who run this site for encouraging me to join and get involved, its been a pleasure to get to know a lot of the great guys on here, without you it wouldnt be the success that it obviously is, and thats the main reason i am here and why i am happy to help and share my knowledge with any of you who may require it.
regards,anthony,TD...:)
Steve Toy
07-10-2008, 16:44
Thanks for those kind words Anthony.
At this point I'd like say that Anthony will be building a range of components that will bear the AOS brand name.
So far these include modified Chinese valve power amps, a prototype pre that I own but we are hoping to see the launch of the AOS mains filter in the near future.
I've not heard one of these but Marco has and will no doubt soon come along and tell us how it will benefit a system.
Peter,
There was a magazine that came out in the early 80s, might have been called the flat response, or something like that. I saw one or two issues. I believe that's where the flat earth malarkey started.
Ah yes, 'The Flat Response'. I've heard of it but never read it. I only got into 'serious' hi-fi around 1982 so the magazine passed me buy. I don't think I started reading hi-fi magazines seriously until the late 80s. Do you remember 'Hi-fi for Pleasure'? That one sticks in my mind, even though I think it was earlier, because there was always some rather cheesy soft porn on the cover! I seem to remember one issue featuring a rather slender female leg clad in fishnet stockings and a garter belt with some hi-end cartridges pinned onto it :eyebrows:
It's only fair to say that many that broke away to join pfm have come a long way in their audio journey, some even have latest generation iPods!
Indeed. And it's now mainly a vehicle for Tony to sell his records. The 'focus' has changed somewhat from what it was originally. iPods are the spawn of the devil. I have never heard such a tinny sounding cacophony. Give me a Sony Walkman Pro, some proper headphones, playing music recorded from my system at home via a Nakamichi DR-10 on NOS TDK SA90s any day! I don’t do ear bleed, old chap.
In fact, you could point a finger at me and say, "he's still trapped in that flat earth mind set", I still post on the Naim forum and pfm. Although, since having the CDS3/555PS demo, my glasses have lost their pink tint. If it's a choice between beautiful sound and coherent music with less beautiful sound, I know what I'd choose. BTW, the Teccie is getting talked up over on pfm, and getting less flak now.
I've noticed! And it can only be a good thing. AOS has also helped in that regard as some of the discussions here on the Technics have spilled over onto pfm. The more it's mentioned, the more the message will spread about how bloody good it is and hopefully it will get people out of this ridiculous 'flat-earth' mentality which says that only Linns, Regas and their ilk can 'play the tune'.
I was never a mana maniac, tho'
That's the only thing you're missing out on, Peter! But even the most discerning of chaps sometimes misses a trick or two... ;)
Marco.
Crikey some of this talk of furms takes me back. I was on the Naim forum around 99, I didn't own any Naim but the music section, especially the classical, was very good. I got told off for recommending a Magnum Dynalb tuner to someone in Canada, home of the great tuners. Next day a warning was on there stating the forum was for discussing Naim only, I never went back.
Good to see you dropping by again, Griffo! How are the Villa doing these days? ;)
I joined the Naim forum a year later and lasted I think three years until I was banned for being a bad boy :eyebrows:
Personally, I always found Richard Dane (the then Administrator - and I believe he's still there now) to be an ok guy, and I got away with murder, mainly I suppose because in those days I was spending tens of thousands of pounds on brand new Naim gear, building my system slowly up to CDS2/52/Supercap/135s! The 'new' guy Adam Meredith is apparently somewhat 'stricter' by all accounts, or perhaps it's a case of Naim changing their policies on the forum from the days when I posted there.
I also visited the factory and met Richard and Paul Stephenson. I had already met Doug Graham and Paul Darwin at shows, where we usually had a laugh about one thing and another, and from when Paul (who no longer works for Naim) used to pop into Acoustica in Chester where I used to help out on a Saturday.
My wife and I also got a full tour of the Naim factory one day, put up in a four-star hotel for the night, all paid for by Naim, and picked up in the evening at the hotel by Paul Stephenson in his S-class Mercedes and driven to his beautiful home to have dinner with his charming wife and family. She was an excellent cook and both she and Paul were great company. Later we retired to the lounge and listened to his system, which at the time consisted of a CDS3 (just released)/XPS2/552/3x NAP 500s driving active (bespoke) DBLs. That was rather nice! So as you will appreciate I have nothing but respect for Paul and the chaps at Naim :)
I tend to lurk here a little more. Not sure why but the way a certain other forum has been going I've stopped posting a lot there as well.
Well, as I said to Mick Parry yesterday, lurk less and post more! I always value your contributions as you tend to have a slightly different view to others, which I find refreshing.
For me music is always important but you go to a forum to also discuss the gear, which I have an interest in, the same way drivers can enjoy driving AND the car itself.
Without doubt we are first and foremost a hi-fi forum - we don't pretend to be anything else. The forum is set-up that way because we feel that the majority of people will participate more in discussions about hi-fi than music, even though they love music, too. Statistically on forums the figures bear this out. I know people here who've got fairly large music collections at home but yet have hardly posted once in the music room. It's the nature of the beast - quite simply there is often much more to talk about with hi-fi (if done properly). I myself would rather just listen to music than write about it. However I still contribute fairly regularly to the music room, which is developing nicely.
I do find it somewhat 'restrictive' in a discussion sense posting on which albums I've bought and what I'm listening to today; and writing a critical appraisal about a piece of music is not something which comes effortlessly or naturally to me in the way for example I can write about hi-fi. I guess that I just don't find 'intellectual' discussions about music particularly stimulatng, so the sort of stuff you referred to liking on the Naim forum would probably have made my eyes glaze over. *But* that most certainly does not mean that I love hi-fi more than music (I listen to music on average for 7-8 hours a day!); merely that I find the former makes for discussions which for me are more challenging and diverse. It's the various methodologies of assembling a hi-fi system, and people's differing views on this, that I find most intriguing. If such discussions are correctly facilitated and policed properly by administrators, as we believe we do, then it makes for an interesting and diverse hi-fi forum.
This place seems quite relaxed but then wait until others come and spoil the party.
Like Rob says, it simply won't happen. We are and always will be 100% focussed on ensuring that there is a fun, friendly and relaxed atmosphere on AOS. It is a primarly part of our ethos.
Of course due to forums I have a nice DD deck waiting for me in november, not a Technics yet but the price is right, which is going to be turned in to a very nice mono deck for my olde classical records.
If it wasn't for forums I wouldn't even think of doing something like that.
Aha, so the chief Linn 'bouncy' man is now a turncoat? :eyebrows: ;)
I knew you'd see the light one day, dude, hehe... Have you still got your LP12? What DD did you buy - go on, spill the beans!
If you want to keep a forum doing what it should do then remember, it's about personal experience, likes, dislikes and discussing them - never lose a passion for something that's enjoyable. It's not about how something measures.
Sounds like good advice, mate!
Marco.
griffo104
08-10-2008, 10:20
Aha, so the chief Linn 'bouncy' man is now a turncoat? :eyebrows: ;)
I knew you'd see the light one day, dude, hehe... Have you still got your LP12? What DD did you buy - go on, spill the beans!
Hi Marco, Well I'm still in the bouncy world of turntables, the LP12 changed in to a Michell Orbe SE, a deck I prefer in pretty much every possible way. Listen to records without a bit of bounce ? Not sure I could do that :)
I have, over the last couple of years, gathered quite a nice collection of mono claissical records, some very nice Columbia,hmv and Decca, all in superb condition. It seems a waste not to treat these with the respect they deserve, and they deserve a lot.
I've decided not just to get another cart for the deck as that means continually swapping carts but to get a 2nd deck. I didn't see the point in getting a belt drive or suspended deck so decided to go for a DD deck to have a play for myself - something different. I will be purchasing a Sony deck in November, can't remember the model number off the top of my head, but the seller has sent me photos of it and it's in excellent condition and the price is right. I'll be getting a mono cart from Japan via a website and will mean that for about £200 I'll have a 2nd deck for mono records.
If I get on with the DD deck then I may well consider going for more expensive option of a KAB 1210.
After all you can never have too many turntables ;)
As for Mana, I was, again, on the Mana forum not long after they started it. I purchased a Mana reference wall shelf from them, not long before their move to north wales if I remember correctly. They were an absolute pleasure to deal with especially when they found out what deck I was using and that it was my first deck (a Michell Mycro). I found the later reaction on the forums towards them in some places completely unwarranted and I was very sad to see the way they went in the end. I think one forum even changed their software to filter out the word Mana.
I do sometimes wonder why some people join and post on a hifi forum.
Griffo,
Hi Marco, Well I'm still in the bouncy world of turntables, the LP12 changed in to a Michell Orbe SE, a deck I prefer in pretty much every possible way. Listen to records without a bit of bounce ? Not sure I could do that
Old habits die hard, eh? ;)
I have, over the last couple of years, gathered quite a nice collection of mono claissical records, some very nice Columbia,hmv and Decca, all in superb condition. It seems a waste not to treat these with the respect they deserve, and they deserve a lot.
As have I, but not classical stuff, mainly Jazz and music from the 50s like Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Nat King Cole, Shirley Bassey, Connie Francis, etc. I find not only the packaging and artwork superb (I love all the rather humorous information about 'how to play a record' on the sleeves - and the sleeves are usually all properly lined) but the quality of the vinyl itself, and most of all the quality of the recordings. It may be mono, but it sounds superb! The DL-103 Pro is a great cartridge for reproducing these types of albums, as is the Ortofon SPU.
I've decided not just to get another cart for the deck as that means continually swapping carts but to get a 2nd deck. I didn't see the point in getting a belt drive or suspended deck so decided to go for a DD deck to have a play for myself - something different.
Smart move - I approve wholeheartedly! You never know, you might end up preferring it to your Orbe! Stranger things have happened in these parts as the Techy, for example, has retired (or has been instrumental in retiring) certain Garrard 401s, LP12s and Spacedecks :eyebrows:
I will be purchasing a Sony deck in November, can't remember the model number off the top of my head, but the seller has sent me photos of it and it's in excellent condition and the price is right.
Can you post the photos here in our Analogue Art section so we can have a look? I'm sure this would be of great interest to our members. There are quite a few D/D lovers here!
I'll be getting a mono cart from Japan via a website and will mean that for about £200 I'll have a 2nd deck for mono records.
Is this the cartridge you mean:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Denon_DL-102_Moving_Coil_Cartridge.html
It's what I'll probably end up buying for my mono records because I realise that the stereo 103 isn't doing them justice. Secretly though I'd much prefer one of these:
http://www.coolgales.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=146&substring=ortofon+spu
:)
If I get on with the DD deck then I may well consider going for more expensive option of a KAB 1210.
After all you can never have too many turntables
Too right, mate! You must pop by sometime and listen to mine.
As for Mana, I was, again, on the Mana forum not long after they started it. I purchased a Mana reference wall shelf from them, not long before their move to north wales if I remember correctly. They were an absolute pleasure to deal with especially when they found out what deck I was using and that it was my first deck (a Michell Mycro). I found the later reaction on the forums towards them in some places completely unwarranted and I was very sad to see the way they went in the end. I think one forum even changed their software to filter out the word Mana.
Knowing the facts of the situation and the people involved I could go into great detail on this matter, but this isn't really the time or place.
I do sometimes wonder why some people join and post on a hifi forum.
Some people think that it's 'fun' to wind others up, and don't take hi-fi forums seriously, which I guess is fine to an extent. Trouble is, people all have different temperaments and when you press the wrong buttons with folk who have a rather volatile temper, all hell can and does break loose! I guess the fact is for 'fun' if you keep on poking a Rottweiler with a stick then eventually it'll bite back with more than likely unfortunate consequences... ;)
Like you, I don't know why people can't just use audio forums for their intended purpose and respect other people's opinion even if it isn't their own, giving others the due courtesy they deserve. Surely that's not difficult is it? If everyone adopted this simple policy there would be no aggro on forums!
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 11:39
iPods are the spawn of the devil. I have never heard such a tinny sounding cacophony. Give me a Sony Walkman Pro, some proper headphones, playing music recorded from my system at home via a Nakamichi DR-10 on NOS TDK SA90s any day! I don’t do ear bleed, old chap.
You'll be saying you can't beat 78s through valve amplfication into a klipschorn next :lolsign: !
You'll tell me I'm deaf. I don't find my iPods, even if the file being played back is 128Kbps AAC, tinny sounding cacophony. I've used my vintage Sony MDR-7's on the iPod shuffle and it sounds rather pleasant. I normally use the Shure E2C, or which I had custom ear moulds made, It sounds fine to me and means that I can transport 700+ tunes with me on long trips using the iPod touch. I also use a 5G ipod in the car, using 256 Kbps vbr AAC, and I can get roughly 4000 tunes on the road too.
Tapes take up too much damn space!
No oil rigs in our lounge ;):lol:
cheers
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 11:46
I'd order the extra memory to be built in to the iMac, for the slightly higher price you're guaranteed operating stability and compatibility. This is not the case with the HD though, Freecom are the pick of the crop for quality hard drives at the moment. :)
The only question I have with respect to the 20" macs is the graphics card.
Over the base iMac you get 1Gb extra memory and a 320Gb drive. Since neither 250Gb nor 320Gb is either enough or secure enough that's a wash for me, and I have a drobo now which can be expanded up over 4Gb with todays available drives.
4GB of 800Mhz RAM can be had for 68€. So I really don't see the point of buying the higher spec iMac. I was tempted by the lesser of the 24" iMacs but that's been nixxed by Mrs user34, saves a load of cash too.
cheers
Filterlab
08-10-2008, 11:56
...iPods are the spawn of the devil. I have never heard such a tinny sounding cacophony...
I think you'd be surprised if you heard an iPod owned by an audiophile, with decent set-up an iPod can play very well indeed. Have a listen to one using lossless files and decent headphones and it'd give a Sony Walkman a big run for it's money, in fact it'd beat it hands down for playback stability. Also the output stage of the iPod has been improved immensely over the generations (a big jump in the 5th gen video versions) and the internal amplifiers have been beefed up to drive larger cans. If the iPod had a digital output I'd love to hook it up to my DAC and critically listen, I bet it would be very good indeed.
Filterlab
08-10-2008, 11:58
The only question I have with respect to the 20" macs is the graphics card.
Why, do you need a good graphics card to listen to music?
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 12:02
Why, do you need a good graphics card to listen to music?
Duh :doh: ! You got me there! :lol:
I don't do games either. So that looks like the question answered.
cheers
griffo104
08-10-2008, 12:07
Is this the cartridge you mean:
http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Denon_DL-102_Moving_Coil_Cartridge.html
It's what I'll probably end up buying for my mono records because I realise that the stereo 103 isn't doing them justice. Secretly though I'd much prefer one of these:
http://www.coolgales.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=146&substring=ortofon+spu
:)
Marco, yep that's the cart I plan to get, I may even treat myself to a nice new headshell as well when I order it.
I have 3 MCs at the moment, Denon DL301ii (purchased from Audiocubes), Goldring Elite and a Lyra Dorian. In a perfect world where I had lots of money for hifi I would purchase a Mono Dorian (about £550) and wouldn't even think twice about it so highly do I regard Lyra and their carts. Getting a 2nd headshell would allow me to put the DL301ii or Elite on the deck when I fancy playing with stereo records on it. I'll try and hunt out the pics when I get a chance to.
Also Benz Micro can provide any of their carts in a mono version as well.
I have to say I've been slightly disappointed in quite a few Spacedecks I've heard, sounding a little soft and too laid back. In all cases these have been at bake off and have always had a uni-pivot of some sort on them but in each case they have lacked the drive and impact that so many go on about with that particular deck.
I agree totally with you on mono records. Considering some of mine are over 50 years old, there's no sign of warping, they are thick and the sleeves and inners have a quality we seem to have given up on in this day. I suppose records were more of a luxury back then. I currently use them with stereo carts but there is still distortion coming through. The Linn amp has a mono button which helps eliminate some of the distortion but not all, which is what has triggered my wanting to go full on mono.
Peter,
You'll be saying you can't beat 78s through valve amplfication into a klipschorn next!
Why not if it makes realistic and believable music? I'm not sure if it'll fit in my car, though :eyebrows:
You'll tell me I'm deaf. I don't find my iPods, even if the file being played back is 128Kbps AAC, tinny sounding cacophony. I've used my vintage Sony MDR-7's on the iPod shuffle and it sounds rather pleasant.
Nope - each to his or her own, mate. I just don't do "rather pleasant" ;)
I'm so used to, quite frankly, outstanding sound quality with the music I listen to at home that when I'm on the move I find it extremely difficult to adjust to something vastly inferior. Obviously there's no chance of me replicating in a car, train, or whatever, what my main system is capable of, but as long as the sound I'm listening to ticks as many of the hi-fi boxes as possible, and crucially, the musical message is effectively communicated, then I can put up with whatever compromises there are.
The sound quality of the iPods I've heard is diabolical in comparison to what I get from the Sony Walkman or the Blaupunkt tape deck in my car, and so my ears can't get past the thin, lightweight, dynamically compressed sound to get access to the musical message! It's just a compromise I'm unable and unwilling to put up with no matter how 'convenient' an iPod is or how many bloody tunes it can hold! There are about 30 SA90 tapes in the glove compartment of my car full of music, most of which is diverse compilations of all sorts of stuff recorded on CD and vinyl (some are 7 and 12" singles from the 70s and 80s) which equates to around 45 hours of music - more than enough to entertain me when I'm out and about!
And if I want more music, I simply make up more tapes. I enjoy the process :)
It's this sort of 'tactile' experience with music that iPods and computer audio has killed off!
I normally use the Shure E2C, or which I had custom ear moulds made, It sounds fine to me and means that I can transport 700+ tunes with me on long trips using the iPod touch. I also use a 5G ipod in the car, using 256 Kbps vbr AAC, and I can get roughly 4000 tunes on the road too.
Enjoy away! :lolsign:
Tapes take up too much damn space!
Oi cares not a jot, me old son :smoking:
No oil rigs in our lounge
Nor in mine. I have a separate room for music listening! :ner:
Marco.
I think you'd be surprised if you heard an iPod owned by an audiophile, with decent set-up an iPod can play very well indeed. Have a listen to one using lossless files and decent headphones and it'd give a Sony Walkman a big run for it's money, in fact it'd beat it hands down for playback stability. Also the output stage of the iPod has been improved immensely over the generations (a big jump in the 5th gen video versions) and the internal amplifiers have been beefed up to drive larger cans. If the iPod had a digital output I'd love to hook it up to my DAC and critically listen, I bet it would be very good indeed.
Rob, if someone can be bothered to demonstrate the above to me then I'm all ears. As you know, I'm always open-minded. Until that day though I'll happily 'soldier on' with my antiquated tapes and obsolete 1970s/1980s musical reproduction technology! :lol:
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 12:36
The sound quality of the iPods I've heard is diabolical in comparison to what I get from the Sony Walkman or the Blaupunkt tape deck in my car, and so my ears can't get past the thin, lightweight, dynamically compressed sound to get access to the musical message! It's just a compromise I'm unable and unwilling to put up with no matter how 'convenient' an iPod is or how many bloody tunes it can hold! There are about 30 SA90 tapes in the glove compartment of my car full of music, most of which is diverse compilations of all sorts of stuff recorded on CD and vinyl (some are 7 and 12" singles from the 70s and 80s) which equates to around 45 hours of music - more than enough to entertain me when I'm out and about!
I used to make tapes for the car to, I used to like the normal bias TDK & Maxell tapes that used to be made, can't remember what they called the now. This weekend we're going to take a box load of cassettes to the dump!
Wot, no CD player in the car ? ;) ; To be honest, I'm not immune to marketing. Apple got me with the 5G iPod, and I thought up ways to use it. Up to that point, because I had a noisy commute i'd been using custom earplugs, because I couldn't stand the sound leakage from the crappy earplug 'phones and the crappy music played too loudly on public transport by the great unwashed. I'd tried asking peeople to turn them down, but I got ignored at best. So I joined them, but was careful to avoid sound leakage.
I don't hear my iPods as compressed and compromised, but I never heard your references either, I'll find out one day.
cheers
Peter,
I used to make tapes for the car to, I used to like the normal bias TDK & Maxell tapes that used to be made, can't remember what they called the now. This weekend we're going to take a box load of cassettes to the dump!
Bloody sacrilege! :eyebrows:
The tapes you're referring to are the likes of TDK D or AD, AD-X, etc, and the Maxell eqivalent, which escapes me. I much prefer good chrome tapes as there seems to be less hiss with Dolby B HX-Pro engaged, and they give a clearer more precise sound which helps cut through the noise floor when driving. I'm not a huge fan of metal tapes, except on the Nakamichi at home, as they have the tendency to be somewhat bright on car stereos without proper equalisation. You can still buy all the classic blank tapes on the site below. This is where I get mine from:
http://stores.ebay.com/RealDeals-Steals
I don't buy new blank cassettes because the quality is shit, and there are very few being made now, so I stockpile some nice NOS ones instead :)
Wot, no CD player in the car ?
LOL. No - because the bog standard ones sound truly diabolical and are horrible cheap plastic things. Even the best separate ones are nothing special and simply aren't worth the money. My set-up in the car is nothing fancy: just a fairly cheap but decent quality tape deck and two fairly basic speakers on the doors, but if you keep the tape heads clean and regularly demagnetise them, and use good quality tapes with superbly recorded music on them, then the results are quite surprising and easily better than any factory fitted car CDP or bloody iPod! ;)
To be honest, I'm not immune to marketing.
As far as hi-fi goes, I'm completely immune from marketing. That's why the 'terrible twosome' with their godawful computer speakers got short shrift here. Quite simply, unless I can see the sonic advantages of any new technology, and it results in superior sound quality compared to what I'd normally use, I'm just not interested.
Apple got me with the 5G iPod, and I thought up ways to use it. Up to that point, because I had a noisy commute i'd been using custom earplugs, because I couldn't stand the sound leakage from the crappy earplug 'phones and the crappy music played too loudly on public transport by the great unwashed. I'd tried asking peeople to turn them down, but I got ignored at best. So I joined them, but was careful to avoid sound leakage.
I think that's a big part of why I've never really 'got into' iPods. I very, very rarely use public transport of any description. I think the last time I was on a bus was about 6 or 7 years ago and a train about 4 or 5 years ago. I live in a fairly rural area, not a city, so I can use the convenience of a car very quickly and easily. I also hate having to wait and be reliant on other people to get from A to B. I just like jumping in the car and going out at the times which suit me, where my super-duper tape deck and music awaits... :lol:
All this probably makes me sound somewhat of an anachrophile - I'm not, far from it. I just don't see the point in replacing something I consider as excellent for something that I consider worse simply to have the 'latest toy'. Also, I *hate* 'following the herd'. I like to be different - I always have been and I always will be.
I don't hear my iPods as compressed and compromised, but I never heard your references either, I'll find out one day.
Jump over to the UK anytime you fancy, Peter. It would be a pleasure to entertain you with some fine Amarone :smoking:
Marco.
Originally Posted by Marco View Post
iPods are the spawn of the devil. I have never heard such a tinny sounding cacophony. Give me a Sony Walkman Pro, some proper headphones, playing music recorded from my system at home via a Nakamichi DR-10 on NOS TDK SA90s any day! I don’t do ear bleed, old chap.
Marco, Marco, Marco. My dear luddite friend. I don't know how you've heard an iPod, but if you've ever heard one with a line out into a decent portable headphone amp into good cans...no, let me take that back, if you've simply heard an iPod straight into a set of high quality in-ear phones of a low enough impedance to be driven to potential by the iPod, and you still prefer cassette tape, I can only assume that you must enjoy compressed dynamic range, a high noise floor and a narrow frequency response.
Lossless files played through a line out into your car audio system? I would be able to smell the cassette plastic burning all the way across the pond.
Tim
Yes, Tim, but how do I indulge in my enjoyment of making up tapes for the car? - The process of recording compilations of my favourite music on vinyl, recording it onto tape with my Nakamichi, and revelling in the warmth and natural tone of the analogue sound whilst driving around beautiful rural North Wales? ;)
It's this 'tactile' experience with music, apart from anything else, that 'digiphiles' don't seem to get.
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 13:46
Lossless files played through a line out into your car audio system? I would be able to smell the cassette plastic burning all the way across the pond.
Tim
That's were I am with the 5G ipod I have in the car, going to a pioneer DEH-50UB. I've got some Focal speakers for it too, 130VRS. The sound quality out of the deck + speakers is very good, and makes me want to try some focal 2 ways on the main rig (1007Be's to be specific). But, honestly, vibration from the door panels and road noise makes lossless files a waste of time, which is why I went to 256 kbps vbr AAC. I can't tell the difference when I'm rolling. (The car is a renault clio III).
Marco, as for the cassettes, none of them are top notch cassettes, they're Evelyne's from a previous lifetime.
We live very close to the city of light and using a car, as I do, for daily get about is not the smart solution. I have a commute that get's me going in the opposite direction to most people, it works for me. I work just south of Versailles.
I went to College in Bangor, so I know where Wrexham is, more or less.
cheers
Filterlab
08-10-2008, 13:47
Duh :doh: ! You got me there! :lol:
I don't do games either. So that looks like the question answered.
cheers
:lol:
Rob, if someone can be bothered to demonstrate the above to me then I'm all ears. As you know, I'm always open-minded. Until that day though I'll happily 'soldier on' with my antiquated tapes and obsolete 1970s/1980s musical reproduction technology! :lol:
Marco.
I'm in no way saying that it replaces other technology or am I saying that other sources are obsolete. I seem to remember tape recording sources were deemed as poor quality upon introduction, as were CDs etc etc.
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 13:50
It's this 'tactile' experience with music, apart from anything else, that 'digiphiles' don't seem to get.
Au contraire, you can make compilations on the fly with digital music files, you can arrange them anyway you want. You're not stuck with the sequence you first thought of. You're also not stuck with thinking about how you can fill the last 3' 29" of a tape side.
And for tactile, we got LPs and a record deck!
cheers
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 13:57
As far as hi-fi goes, I'm completely immune from marketing. That's why the 'terrible twosome' with their godawful computer speakers got short shrift here. Quite simply, unless I can see the sonic advantages of any new technology, and it results in superior sound quality compared to what I'd normally use, I'm just not interested.
I think it's really hard to be immune from marketing, you're either going to accept or refuse to try, n'est ce pas ? Or am I too simplistic ?
Computer Speakers ? Would you be referring to "giant killing" active two ways with a built in DAC, marketed from somewhere in gloucestershire ?
Did you give them a listen ?
cheers
Au contraire, you can make compilations on the fly with digital music files, you can arrange them anyway you want. You're not stuck with the sequence you first thought of. You're also not stuck with thinking about how you can fill the last 3' 29" of a tape side.
And for tactile, we got LPs and a record deck!
Exactly, Peter, and that's the whole point!! - Which you're somewhat missing...
It's the handling of the records and admiring the labels, the cleaning of them prior to recording them, the fine adjusting of the T/T in order to get the best sound from certain records, obtaining the correct recording levels and bias adjustment on the Nakamichi, the writing of the labels on the tapes - it's all the physical processes involved in recording music onto analogue tape which I'm referring to as the 'tactile experience'. I love all that, and you don't get it from streaming lossless files through an iPod :)
Do you see what I mean?
Marco, as for the cassettes, none of them are top notch cassettes, they're Evelyne's from a previous lifetime.
LOL! We'll have to agree to differ! I'll try to 'educate' you if come and visit. You have to listen to where I'm coming from before you can judge.
Marco.
Well, I can't help you with the tactile part of the experience, but I can tell you that making playlists in iTunes is as musically satisfying, and much more efficient, than composing mix tapes ever was.
But I was never a big fan of cassettes. I had decks. I made mix tapes. Particularly for women I was attempting to seduce in my mis-spent youth. And of course I played tapes in the car. But for archiving vinyl (or "borrowing" it) there was always a Teac 3440 with its big reels and 15 ips there next to the Thorens. And of course that revealed cassette for what it always has been: a Dictaphone machine dressed up with noise reduction (otherwise known as music reduction).
Of course you must consider the source. I'll take a well-mastered redbook CD over any cassette. Or open reel. Or even vinyl (I'm currently ducking and running for cover). I believe in old school music. Old school media? Not so much.
Tim
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 14:12
it's all the physical processes involved in recording music onto analogue tape which I'm referring to as the 'tactile experience'. I love all that, and you don't get it from streaming lossless files through an iPod :)
Do you see what I mean?
I'll try to 'educate' you if come and visit. You have to listen to where I'm coming from before you can judge.
Sure, I see what you mean now,;). But, as Tim said, I did it too in the misspent yoof and for the same reasons, so why you still doin' it? :)
Each to his own, and I'm not judging. There's a lot more than meets the eye in using the computer as an audio source, not only as a hires source, but for portable music.
Another poster on here, spur7 (Paul Tapin) contacted me and he's gone much further overboard than I and many others here, with respect to computer audio.
Buying Stan's dac was the thin end of the wedge, I've just got myself a RAID storage array for added protection to my music files.
I thhink I'd like to reduce to computer audio for great sound and convenience, and the LPs when I want the real hands on experience.
cheers
Peter,
I think it's really hard to be immune from marketing, you're either going to accept or refuse to try, n'est ce pas ? Or am I too simplistic ?
Computer Speakers ? Would you be referring to "giant killing" active two ways with a built in DAC, marketed from somewhere in gloucestershire ?
Did you give them a listen ?
Yes those are the ones. And I didn't need to listen to them - Steve (Toy), Rob, Guy Sergeant, and quite a few other people whose ears I trust all said they were pish! :lol:
Apart from that, more seriously, being so used to huge stand-mounts with 12" bass drivers, and the huge type of sound they produce, I simply couldn't live with diddy little boxes no matter how good they were.
As for marketing, I'm exposed to it like anyone else, and digest it accordingly, but it seems to have little if any impact on me when it comes to hi-fi. Look at the type of gear I use. It's hardly mainstream 'flavour of the month, follow the herd' stuff, is it? :eyebrows:
And nor will it ever be!
I'm extremely choosy and discerning about the equipment I buy.
Sure, I see what you mean now,. But, as Tim said, I did it too in the misspent yoof and for the same reasons, so why you still doin' it?
'Cos I like it, it sounds good, and I enjoy the process. So why shouldn't I? I might give up on wearing short pants soon, though ;)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 14:32
Apart from that, more seriously, being so used to huge stand-mounts with 12" bass drivers, and the huge type of sound they produce, I simply couldn't live with diddy little boxes no matter how good they were.
I'm extremely choosy and discerning about the equipment I buy.
Marco.
I wish I could give home to some Klipsch's, but they'd never a) get the WAF nod, nor b) give the neighbours any sleep. If you're used to trouser flapping bass, then it's hard to adjust to the lack of foundation. It does affect the rest of the range.
I happen to like diddy boxes as the best compromise for the constraints of where I live, i.e. a 2 bedroom flat. I get bass down to 30Hz from my speakers, with 165mm bass mid range units, but anything with more bass output would be too unmanageable in the 24m² that serves as lounge and music room. I'll be sticking to diddy boxes for sometime. I haven't heard a big speaker system for sometime. The last time 'briks at RKRs gaff, I didn't care for them but I can see why some people would. In fact I'd like for that 30Hz range to diminish somewhat in our room.
Atthe end of the day, it amounts to whatever opens up the world of music, that's what pulled me into this hobby, I love the music. I get a kick out of the various projects, SL1210, Computer audio and what have you, to support it.
cheers
Well, I can't help you with the tactile part of the experience, but I can tell you that making playlists in iTunes is as musically satisfying, and much more efficient, than composing mix tapes ever was.
We're obviously just different, Tim. "Efficiency" is of zero importance to me, because when I'm not working I've got all the time I need to do these things and I like the 'home-made' result of my recordings on tape. You'll also have to trust me when I tell you that they sound fab. Do I seem like the type of person to you who would settle for mediocre sound quality? Whether making playlists in iTunes would be as "musically satisfying" to me as it is to you is also somewhat debatable.
Marco.
Peter,
I wish I could give home to some Klipsch's, but they'd never a) get the WAF nod, nor b) give the neighbours any sleep. If you're used to trouser flapping bass, then it's hard to adjust to the lack of foundation. It does affect the rest of the range.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell, and WAF has never been an issue for me. My wife is very understanding as far as hi-fi goes and anywhere we've lived I've always had a dedicated music room. The communal lounge has always been a separate entity.
I happen to like diddy boxes as the best compromise for the constraints of where I live, i.e. a 2 bedroom flat. I get bass down to 30Hz from my speakers, with 165mm bass mid range units, but anything with more bass output would be too unmanageable in the 24m² that serves as lounge and music room.
I completely understand and appreciate that. However, my situation is entirely different. I live in an old lodge with extremely thick walls dating from 1887 which stands on its own (fairly significant) grounds - well away from any neighbours. I have listening sessions with my mates at 2 and 3am sometimes at gut-wrenching, trouser-flapping, intestine-rearranging levels that would awaken the dead! :fingers:
And I disturb no-one (alive!), apart from perhaps some owls in the garden...
I'll be sticking to diddy boxes for sometime. I haven't heard a big speaker system for sometime. The last time 'briks at RKRs gaff, I didn't care for them but I can see why some people would. In fact I'd like for that 30Hz range to diminish somewhat in our room.
You must come over for a little holiday sometime and see what you think of my humble little Dansette ;)
At the end of the day, it amounts to whatever opens up the world of music, that's what pulled me into this hobby, I love the music. I get a kick out of the various projects, SL1210, Computer audio and what have you, to support it.
I love music very much, too. I certainly wouldn't go to all the bloody bother of recording tapes for the car, like I do, if I didn't. I listen to music all day when I'm working from home, and in the evening when enjoying a glass or three of vino. Even when I'm on holiday or away from home from any length of time, as soon as I'm back I can't wait to put my system on and listen to some tunes. I miss it like mad! However, I also appreciate good sound, too, and hate making compromises unless I absolutely have to.
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
08-10-2008, 15:04
You must come over for a little holiday sometime and see what you think of my humble little Dansette ;)
Thanks Marco,
We usually manage at least a week in the British Isles every year, last time in what was my native region, near Northampton. We've been to Chester once and I think I could innocently arrange another holiday that way ;)
cheers
Chester is only 15 mins from me. Like I said, you're welcome anytime, Peter. Just PM me when you fancy it and we'll compare diaries :)
Marco.
anthonyTD
08-10-2008, 17:27
ipods,,,,
when i was ill in bed last week, i started listening to my wife's ipod, playing the carpenters,[of all things] and i must say, it wasnt bad, yes, it may have lacked a bit of oomph at the lower extreemes,but it was clean, crisp, and quite listenable, i even thought how much better it might be with a decent pair of headphones...:)
Yep, those in-ear things just don't do it mate, do they? I remember the funny looks I used to get on the rare occasions when I travelled on public transport with my Walkman and full-sized Beyer Dynamic (now AKG) headphones strapped onto my big nut!
F*ck it, I like some semblance of bass and scale with my music no matter where I am! :lol:
Marco.
Filterlab
08-10-2008, 19:00
F*ck it, I like some semblance of bass and scale with my music no matter where I am! :lol:
Marco.
Damn straight! I have some big fat Sennheisers for casual iPod use and some lighter but still over-ear Sennheisers for running. :)
Quite right, baby! :smoking:
I guess we just have certain sonic standards we will not go below with any equipment.
Marco
Prince of Darkness
08-10-2008, 20:38
Yep, those in-ear things just don't do it mate, do they?
I can't even use them, my ear holes are too small!:lolsign:
Peter Stockwell
09-10-2008, 06:32
Yep, those in-ear things just don't do it mate, do they?
F*ck it, I like some semblance of bass and scale with my music no matter where I am! :lol:
Now I say, Wrong!
Ok, if you use the throw ins that come with an iPod then they don't have the bass you might be looking for. The argument I'm going to make is the same, logically, that use for detracters of the SL1200 & SL1210. You just haven't heard the right in ear 'phones.
What's critical for bass response with in ear phones is the seal you get between, let me call them buds, the buds and the ear channel. I use Shure E2C's in a custom ear moulding, there's no lack of bass, and these are a long way from being top of the line models. Ok you can't feel your intenstines being pummelled. I have some Sony MDR-7's. They're better than the Shure E2C's but the difference is not huge.
For me the great advantage of the Custom Ear mould/ In ear phone is that you get -25dB of external noise reduction for free, and you can listen at lower absolute volume levels for an equivalent relative volume level. That is, you don't have to turn it up so much to cover the external noise.
Most people don't know that they can go to any hearing specialist and have moulds made for earbuds. Imo, it's the most practical solution for listening to music in hostile conditions, i.e. public transport, trains, planes and what have you!
cheers
Peter,
I bow to your greater experience in this area :)
I just would've thought that, as with external speakers, the bigger the 'cone radiating area' the bigger the sound and the deeper the bass. I know earphones don't have cones in the conventional sense, but you get my point. I simply can't imagine those tiny little in-ear things, no matter how high quality, having the same bass response as the likes of my full-size AKG 701s, but hey ho...
Marco.
griffo104
09-10-2008, 07:52
Yep, those in-ear things just don't do it mate, do they? I remember the funny looks I used to get on the rare occasions when I travelled on public transport with my Walkman and full-sized Beyer Dynamic (now AKG) headphones strapped onto my big nut!
F*ck it, I like some semblance of bass and scale with my music no matter where I am! :lol:
Marco.
I've got a decent pair of headphone, Sennheiser HD600, but I've never really enjoyed the headphone experience. For me it's there when it's too late to laisten to music at a decent volume very late on. I always prefer the impact and scale that you get from speakers, I've yet to hear any headphones that give me the same sort of enjoyment from listening.
Even quite late I would much rather listen to my system via the spakers very quiet than put headphones on. One of the benefits of having an active system is the detail still floods out even at whisper quiet volume.
I have an mp3 player, refuse to buy apple, but the music on there is at a high bit rate, 320kbps, used with 'proper' headphones and nearly always on random and only used on long train journeys. The biggest benefit is being reminded of albums you haven't played for ages when a track comes up. It's amazing how often I return home and hunt the album out and put it on the system.
Too many people I know simply use the ipod ALL the time, bring them to work to listen to while working and then go home and hook it up to one of the piss awful boomboxes 'especially made for the ipod'.
I have a lil Denon mini system, wonderful little things, with a cd,amp and tuner in one small well made box with Mission sourced speakers. It cost less than some of these boomboxes my friends own, the cdp replay is far superior to the ipod and the speakers actually produce a decent soundstage and imaging, if not stonking bass. I can hook my mps player up via a £20 mini jack to RCA cable via it's AUX sockets. Job done.
I just can't understand why people put up with listening to something like music in such a poor manner.
I view this differently to computer audio, via a quality streaming device, flacs and a quality amp. For me this is the future of digital replay and is a completely different kettle of fish to an ipod and docking stattion/boombox.
Peter Stockwell
09-10-2008, 08:03
I always prefer the impact and scale that you get from speakers, I've yet to hear any headphones that give me the same sort of enjoyment from listening.
I have an mp3 player, ... The biggest benefit is being reminded of albums you haven't played for ages when a track comes up. It's amazing how often I return home and hunt the album out and put it on the system.
Too many people I know simply use the ipod ALL the time, bring them to work to listen to while working and then go home and hook it up to one of the piss awful boomboxes 'especially made for the ipod'.
Griffo,
All good points. Yes I prefer the in room speaker experience, but I still believe that the ehadphone experience is closer to the result intended by the recording artist/sound engineer.
I like the od recordings made new again by the random feature of an iPod, it's even lead me to complete the catalogue!
cheers
Peter
Griffo,
Marco, yep that's the cart I plan to get, I may even treat myself to a nice new headshell as well when I order it.
Nice one, mate. Let me know what it's like because I'm very interested! Btw, as far as headshells go, get an Audio Technica LH-18, which is also on the Audiocubes website. I've tried virtually every decent headshell on the market and the LH-18 is head and shoulders better than any of them, especially with Denons - there's a synergy that's 'just right', and it looks the dog's bollocks! :)
I'll try and hunt out the pics when I get a chance to
Please do as soon as you can. I'd love to see pics of the Sony you're buying!
I have to say I've been slightly disappointed in quite a few Spacedecks I've heard, sounding a little soft and too laid back. In all cases these have been at bake off and have always had a uni-pivot of some sort on them but in each case they have lacked the drive and impact that so many go on about with that particular deck.
I can't comment on Spacedecks as I've never heard one. It looks like a nice deck, but I've given up now on belt-drives and won't be going back. Richard (Gromit) is no longer using his (although he's still got it I think) after hearing a 1210, which made him buy the Pioneer PL-71 D/D deck he's using now.
In my experience, D/D is unquestionably more accurate in terms of speed stability, and let's face it, getting the platter to turn round at constantly the right speed with no 'wavering' is pretty much fundamental in getting good sound from a turntable! The rest after that is down to personal taste in terms of presentational issues, but IME, good D/Ds impose very little of their character on the music and simply allow the arm and cartridge to do their job as intended. That's why I much prefer them. I don't want to hear what the T/T is doing - I just want to hear the music on the record as unsullied as possible.
I agree totally with you on mono records. Considering some of mine are over 50 years old, there's no sign of warping, they are thick and the sleeves and inners have a quality we seem to have given up on in this day. I suppose records were more of a luxury back then.
Yep, you're right. I think it's a luxury issue, but that doesn't excuse the rank poor quality of so many of today's pressings, even 'audiophile' ones. Why the f*ck with all the technology available nowadays can't they produce consistently perfectly flat records which aren't full of mold-release stains? And the recording quality on some of them is diabolical. There just doesn't seem to be the same care taken over the whole process as there was in the 50s.
I currently use them with stereo carts but there is still distortion coming through. The Linn amp has a mono button which helps eliminate some of the distortion but not all, which is what has triggered my wanting to go full on mono.
I can't say that I've noticed any of the distortion you mention with the 103. It's just the feeling that I'm not getting the most out of the mono recordings in a musical sense.
Marco.
Hi Peter,
What about this, then (just so I can put it to bed, as it were):
I just would've thought that, as with external speakers, the bigger the 'cone radiating area' the bigger the sound and the deeper the bass. I know earphones don't have cones in the conventional sense, but you get my point. I simply can't imagine those tiny little in-ear things, no matter how high quality, having the same bass response as the likes of my full-size AKG 701s, but hey ho...
Your thoughts please?
:)
Marco.
griffo104
09-10-2008, 08:13
Griffo,
All good points. Yes I prefer the in room speaker experience, but I still believe that the ehadphone experience is closer to the result intended by the recording artist/sound engineer.
Peter,
I would agree with that statement and if you want to concentrate on a recording for pure detail then it's better with headphones, but you would miss the room bouncing when you play James Lavelle at silly volumes :gig:
griffo104
09-10-2008, 08:18
Griffo,
Yep, you're right. I think it's a luxury issue, but that doesn't excuse the rank poor quality of so many of today's pressings, even 'audiophile' ones. Why the f*ck with all the technology available nowadays can't they produce consistently perfectly flat records which aren't full of mold-release stains? And the recording quality on some of them is diabolical. There just doesn't seem to be the same care taken over the whole process as there was in the 50s.
I can't say that I've noticed any of the distortion you mention with the 103. It's just the feeling that I'm not getting the most out of the mono recordings in a musical sense.
Marco.
Marco, on yor first point, if you ever get a chance check out the Music Matters Blue Note 45rpm issues, stunning, quality gatefilds with wonderful photos from the sessions inside. Superb pressing and excellent sound quality.
On your other point, I suppose it's dependant on the type of stylus. The Lyra has one is these new silly thin ones meant to read the groove as accurately as possible, but that's a stereo groove. In the case of my listening it's not an annoying distortion but it is there and it's agood excuse to get another deck and a mono setup (as if I need an excuse).
I'm quite looking forward to the DD experience but it's going to have to be pretty special for me to get rid of the Orbe. The only way of truly finding out is to do it in your own system with your own records. that's one of the reasons for also getting another headshell, one for the mono and one for the stereo cart. Allow me to make comparisons easier.
Peter Stockwell
09-10-2008, 09:20
I just would've thought that, as with external speakers, the bigger the 'cone radiating area' the bigger the sound and the deeper the bass. I know earphones don't have cones in the conventional sense, but you get my point. I simply can't imagine those tiny little in-ear things, no matter how high quality, having the same bass response as the likes of my full-size AKG 701s, but hey ho...
Marco.
Leaving aside that you haven't heard my Shure's and I can't hear your AKG 701's. I would expect the AKG's to be better, because they're a 250€ phone and the Shure's were c. 100€.
As I understand psycho acoustics, you don't actually hear bass you feel it. I.e, it's not our ears that tell us how low the bass goes. I do hope there's a contributor here that can explain this phenomenon, or tell me I'm talking rubbish, whichever it is. The volume of air that the in ear thingies have to work with is a lot less than your circumaural phones.
To my knowledge, nobody has ever investigated the frequency spectrum of the basillary membrane at very low frequencies. However, the decreasing sensitivity of the ear indicates that the membrane is relatively “stiff” for this frequency range. Therefore it can be expected that the relative amount of overtones at the lowest frequencies strongly increases. This phenomenon is seen with many music instruments. A “cheap” piano does not really produce a 27.5 Hz tone when one strikes the lowest key, because the resonance board is simply too small to swing at 27.5 Hz, but it produces a tone that appears to be 27.5Hz due to the principle of the missing fundamental.
http://www.headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=meier5_prj.htm
I pulled that off the web, so yes you can't trust it 100%, I was just looking for something to support what I was getting at. I'm sure more definitive information could be found, I wanted to give a starting point.
cheers
Griffo,
Marco, on yor first point, if you ever get a chance check out the Music Matters Blue Note 45rpm issues, stunning, quality gatefilds with wonderful photos from the sessions inside. Superb pressing and excellent sound quality.
I have some stuff (jazz) on Blue Note but not with 45rpm. I'll keep a look out!
On your other point, I suppose it's dependant on the type of stylus. The Lyra has one is these new silly thin ones meant to read the groove as accurately as possible, but that's a stereo groove.
Good point and I'm sure you're right. The 103 has an old-fashioned conical stylus with a 'large footprint', so I'm sure this helps with mono recordings. Also, it was invented in the late 50s so I'm sure was partially designed to play the music from that era. I'm not a big fan of Lyras (certainly ones I've heard), as I find them a bit 'toppy' and 'CD-like' in their presentation - basically they lack 'emotion' for me, but that's another discussion.
I'm quite looking forward to the DD experience but it's going to have to be pretty special for me to get rid of the Orbe.
It won't happen until you get the deck properly modified, or at the minimum, an arm-rewire. The Orbe is a superb T/T and will take some beating. I don't mind medium to high-mass belt-drive T/Ts, as they do their job pretty well. It's the low-mass ones which in general I think are poor.
All you can realistically hope for when listening to your 'Sony' (it's really a 1210 in disguise) is that you hear its potential and this convinces you that it's worth spending more money on it to challenge the Orbe in all areas. What you should hear is a more precise sound in terms of pitch and timing (that's the effect of near-perfect speed stability) and a tighter, 'harder', and more propulsive bass. You may also hear better clarity and more detail with music.
What you have to do (and this is the key thing) is to separate the inherent sonic signature of the Orbe (it will have one) from the music, i.e. what's actually on the recording and not simply the Orbe's interpretation of it. Difficult, I know, but experience can tell you this. Then judge if it is *this* you prefer to the more 'accurate' presentation of the Sony's drive mechanism. It's this 'accuracy' thing: the sense that you're not listening to a stylus tracking grooves that good D/Ds bring to the party. Otherwise, you may end up simply being seduced by the Orbe's particular brand of coloration and deem the deck itself as 'superior'.
This is why, for example, people love the sound of LP12s. It's not that their presentation is accurate; it's that the type of euphonic coloration superimposed onto the music is (for some) highly addictive, and that's fine, but this is merely an artifice of the deck and not part of what's actually recorded on the record. Trouble is, once you've convinced yourself that this sound is musically 'correct' then you become firmly indoctrinated into the 'Linn music-making philosophy' and your wallet gets progressively lighter chasing the 'ultimate' in this particular brand of (false) 'musicality'...
If you really want to hear what's going on in a vinyl recording then quite simply you need a turntable that constantly turns at the right speed without wavering, and that's high quality D/D, idler-drive (a-la Garrard) or high-mass belt/string-drive (a-la Brinkmann La Grange or Platine Verdier). After that if you want some 'character' added, buy a cartridge (and arm to a lesser extent) that do this.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
The only way of truly finding out is to do it in your own system with your own records. that's one of the reasons for also getting another headshell, one for the mono and one for the stereo cart. Allow me to make comparisons easier.
I totally agree, and you've done exactly the right thing. Meanwhile you may like to read my review of the LH-18 headshell from Audiocubes:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=550
If you can afford it, go for it, because you will quite simply not find a better detachable headshell anywhere!
Marco.
Leaving aside that you haven't heard my Shure's and I can't hear your AKG 701's. I would expect the AKG's to be better, because they're a 250€ phone and the Shure's were c. 100€.
As I understand psycho acoustics, you don't actually hear bass you feel it. I.e, it's not our ears that tell us how low the bass goes. I do hope there's a contributor here that can explain this phenomenon, or tell me I'm talking rubbish, whichever it is. The volume of air that the in ear thingies have to work with is a lot less than your circumaural phones.
http://www.headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=meier5_prj.htm
I pulled that off the web, so yes you can't trust it 100%, I was just looking for something to support what I was getting at. I'm sure more definitive information could be found, I wanted to give a starting point.
Interesting stuff, Peter! And I'm sure there's something in it. I guess it boils down again to the old-fashioned method of listening to both headphones in the same system and comparing the results. Theories, no matter how erudite, are fine up to a point but the proof of the pudding with hi-fi is always in the listening.
One thing I would say though is perhaps there's a difference between 'hearing' bass notes and 'scale' - by this I mean a sense of 'weight' and 'authority' with music, which I always find lacking when listening to smaller speakers than I use even if they go as low, or lower in terms of frequency response. The AKGs, with suitable material, pump out huge slabs of bass that you can feel 'pulsing' (for want of a better word) on the sides of your ears. It's this 'physicality' in the presentation you get from large cones shifting air and the 'richness' of the sound which I'm referring to. And I love this! I simply thought a similar thing would apply with larger diaphragm headphones compared to those that were much smaller.
Perhaps you could bring your Shures with you whenever you visit and we can put this one to bed? :)
Marco.
Peter Stockwell
09-10-2008, 10:13
Interesting stuff, Peter! And I'm sure there's something in it. I guess it boils down again to the old-fashioned method of listening to both headphones in the same system and comparing the results. Theories, no matter how erudite, are fine up to a point but the proof of the pudding with hi-fi is always in the listening.
Perhaps you could bring your Shures with you whenever you visit and we can put this one to bed? :)
I don't usually go very far without them, if I have any train or plane travel. The only problem, is that the moulds are for my ears, although I would bring the squishy fits any ears inserts with me too.
We'll get back to this one day, and thanks again for the invite, I do like your neck of the woods!
Thanks
I'm sure we'll get round any such challenges. I would just be curious to know what the outcome was.
Yes I like it very much around here - it's somewhat different to Glasgow, although I love Glasgow as a city, and the people are very friendly, but I much prefer living in a smaller town near the countryside. I'm not really a city person.
The scenery within less than 15 minutes of leaving my house is simply stunning; you're right in amongst the wilds of rural North Wales which is sometimes a land that time forgot... And I love that because I hate the 'rat race' of modern life and like to escape to a haven where people have time for each other, there is lovely fresh air, peace and tranquillity, and a slower more relaxed pace of life :)
I wouldn't thank you to live in somewhere like London, although Paris would be cool simply because I adore French food and wine!
Marco.
griffo104
09-10-2008, 13:39
It won't happen until you get the deck properly modified, or at the minimum, an arm-rewire. The Orbe is a superb T/T and will take some beating. I don't mind medium to high-mass belt-drive T/Ts, as they do their job pretty well. It's the low-mass ones which in general I think are poor.
All you can realistically hope for when listening to your 'Sony' (it's really a 1210 in disguise) is that you hear its potential and that this convinces you that it's worth spending more money on it to challenge the Orbe in all areas. What you should hear is a more precise sound in terms of pitch and timing (that's the effect of near-perfect speed stability) and a tighter, 'harder', and more propulsive bass. You may also hear better clarity and more detail with music.
What you have to do (and this is the key thing) is to separate the inherent sonic signature of the Orbe (it will have one) from the music, i.e. what's actually on the recording and not simply the Orbe's interpretation of it. Difficult, I know, but experience can tell you this. Then judge if it is *this* you prefer to the more 'accurate' presentation of the Sony's drive mechanism. It's this 'accuracy' thing: the sense that you're not listening to a stylus tracking grooves that good D/Ds bring to the party. Otherwise, you may end up simply being seduced by the Orbe's particular brand of coloration and deem the deck itself as 'superior'.
This is why, for example, people love the sound of LP12s. It's not that their presentation is accurate; it's that the type of euphonic coloration superimposed onto the music is (for some) highly addictive, and that's fine, but this is merely an artifice of the deck and not part of what's actually recorded on the record. Trouble is, once you've convinced yourself that this sound is musically 'correct' then you become firmly indoctrinated into the 'Linn music-making philosophy' and your wallet gets progressively lighter chasing the 'ultimate' in this particular brand of (false) 'musicality'...
If you really want to hear what's going on in a vinyl recording then quite simply you need a turntable that constantly turns at the right speed without wavering, and that's high quality D/D, idler-drive (a-la Garrard) or high-mass belt/string-drive (a-la Brinkmann La Grange or Platine Verdier). After that if you want some 'character' added, buy a cartridge (and arm to a lesser extent) that do this.
Do you see what I'm getting at?
Marco, I know exactly where you are coming from. I owned a Valhalla LP12 and upgraded it to the Cikus/Lingo level. It became much more neutral and the colourations were much more obvious. However, I would argue in going more neutral the up to date LP12 wasn't as much fun. The older spec LP12 just had me wanting to listen to records ALL the time even if it meant going without sleep. At time I still wonder if neutrality is what I'm after. The Orbe SE, imo, was a serious step up from the fully kitted out LP12.
By the way it's good hear you mention the Brinkmann and Verdier decks. I've been lucky enough to hear both decks on a couple of occasions now and they are both amongst the very best source components I've heard. The build quality on the Brinkmann is superb.
There are new DD decks coming out, the GP Monaco, the Brinkmann Oasis and SAP of Italy have a very interesting DD deck out there.
As for Lencos, don't go there. I bought a lovely Leak example of one - an L75 in lovely condition. This has a bouncy plinth, but not in the same level of engineering as an LP12 or Michell deck. The plan was to slap it ina new plinth and get new arm for it. It's still sat there 2 years later. The mains cable has a very old 2 pin plug on it so it probably needs changing and the wiring updated.
I was so looking forward to go idler drive. I refuse to sell it, 2 people have asked me, even the lid is immaculate and with a single mark on it, but it just looks so lovely. I'll get some time and get it sorted at some point. So that'll be a belt, suspended deck, a DD drive and an idler drive :eyebrows: I am just very greedy.
Peter Stockwell
09-10-2008, 13:40
I wouldn't thank you to live in somewhere like London, although Paris would be cool simply because I adore French food and wine!
Paris was great when I first got here, but I find it too urban now, not enough green. Takes too long to get to the golf course :eyebrows:. We're a few clicks away in the surburbs, only 10 minutes away on the train, it's a bit quieter and a bit greener. We also have a very fine community theatre at the end of our street, with plays and music. I've signed up for 4 or 5 jazz shows there, including Stacey Kent, Stefano di Battista and Ron Carter (yes, the ex Miles Davis sideman).
I've cut down enormously on wine, still have 120 or so bottles in cellar, but we're only drinking 1 a week. I'm afraid some of it will be vinegar before we get to it!
anthonyTD
09-10-2008, 15:18
hi guys,
back to the ipod thing,what is the best way to download your own albums onto it,:scratch: ie what software to use to convert your own CD,s and music allready on your computer to ipod.
come on you digi techs...:eyebrows:
anthony...:)
Hi Anthony,
I'd start a seperate thread in The Digital Impression and ask your question there. You'll get a better response that way rather than it getting lost in here :)
Peter and Griffo, I'll come back to you later.
Marco.
anthonyTD
09-10-2008, 16:01
okey dokey...
tiss done ohh great lord and master...:confused:
Roberto has answered your question, amigo :)
Marco.
Peter,
Paris was great when I first got here, but I find it too urban now, not enough green. Takes too long to get to the golf course :eyebrows:.
It's a sad sign of the times, mate. It's that 'urban greyness' and 'gloom' which I hate about cities, and the way people are running about like headless chickens overrunning their lives with work - everything is rush, rush, rush, hustle bustle - a total bloody nightmare!
I honestly think that in rush hour in the London underground (a truly dreadful experience if you've ever had to endure it) if you dropped down dead people would just trample over you as they stampede their way towards work, home, or whatever. No-one cares about anything else but their own little 'zone'. I really couldn't handle that sort of existence and the huge pressure that everyone seems to be under. It's an existence not a life.
Is Paris like that too now - or is it a little more relaxed?
We're a few clicks away in the surburbs, only 10 minutes away on the train, it's a bit quieter and a bit greener. We also have a very fine community theatre at the end of our street, with plays and music. I've signed up for 4 or 5 jazz shows there, including Stacey Kent, Stefano di Battista and Ron Carter (yes, the ex Miles Davis sideman).
That sounds great. That's one benefit of living in a city, I guess. I love live music, and have actually just been listening to Stacey Kent: 'Breakfast on the Morning Tram', oddly enough as I've been having my morning croissant and jam – a rather pleasant way to start the day :)
I've cut down enormously on wine, still have 120 or so bottles in cellar, but we're only drinking 1 a week. I'm afraid some of it will be vinegar before we get to it!
Well, I could always pop over and 'help you out' - I'm good that way, you know ;)
Marco.
Hi Griffo,
Marco, I know exactly where you are coming from. I owned a Valhalla LP12 and upgraded it to the Cikus/Lingo level. It became much more neutral and the colourations were much more obvious. However, I would argue in going more neutral the up to date LP12 wasn't as much fun. The older spec LP12 just had me wanting to listen to records ALL the time even if it meant going without sleep. At time I still wonder if neutrality is what I'm after. The Orbe SE, imo, was a serious step up from the fully kitted out LP12.
I completely agree. I had an LP12/Valhalla/Ittok/Karma in the mid 80s, which at the time sounded wonderful. It had a really rich, rhythmic, 'bouncy' sound, which 'hooked' you to the music. Yes, (as I know now) it was undoubtedly coloured, but it sure as hell was fun to listen to. Subsequent 'higher end' LP12s purchased sounded 'cleaner' and more precise sounding - more 'CD-like', if you will, but they had definitely lost the magic and addictiveness my earlier deck had.
And that's the whole point about LP12s... The fact is they're fundamentally flawed from the outset because of their poor speed stability (in comparison to something like a 1210) so what's the point in trying to make them more 'accurate'? All you end up doing is removing their 'fun factor'! It's a bit like pouring away the plastic tasting, preservative-laden sauce from a supermarket ready meal - by doing so you might be making it 'less artificial', but it's still fundamentally artificial...
So just enjoy it for what it is, if you like that kind of thing!
By the way it's good hear you mention the Brinkmann and Verdier decks. I've been lucky enough to hear both decks on a couple of occasions now and they are both amongst the very best source components I've heard. The build quality on the Brinkmann is superb.
It is indeed, and they are two of my favourite non-D/D turntables. Thing is, in terms of sound-per-pound are they really worth the money? - Because that's where I'm at these days. In real terms, how much better (if any) would they be to my heavily modifed 1210?
My answer to the first question is a resounding 'no', simply because of the laws of diminishing returns at this level. Yes, both decks are beautiful things to look at, but with hi-fi I'm not into nice looking ornaments. They would both have to be *massively* better sonically than what I use, and having heard both, whilst being superb, I really don't think that's the case. My KAB 1210 has already gone toe-to-toe with a superb Slatedeck SP10 - a D/D deck highly revered and respected amongst audiophiles, and come away with honours even. So, quite frankly, I would put it up against anything on the market and not feel that it would be disgraced.
There are new DD decks coming out, the GP Monaco, the Brinkmann Oasis and SAP of Italy have a very interesting DD deck out there.
Yep, they'll all undoubtedly be superb decks, but I don't think their cost is justified considering that a fully modified/maxed-out brand new KAB 1210MK5G like mine costs well under £2k. I seriously doubt it would be far off (if at all) the performance offered by any of the above. Yes they'll be nicer looking and 'shinier', but the core components and overall design methodology I doubt would be any better. What you're paying for mostly is the audiophile badge.
As for Lencos, don't go there. I bought a lovely Leak example of one - an L75 in lovely condition. This has a bouncy plinth, but not in the same level of engineering as an LP12 or Michell deck. The plan was to slap it ina new plinth and get new arm for it. It's still sat there 2 years later. The mains cable has a very old 2 pin plug on it so it probably needs changing and the wiring updated.
That sounds very nice actually, so why not go there if someone is interested? :)
I was so looking forward to go idler drive. I refuse to sell it, 2 people have asked me, even the lid is immaculate and with a single mark on it, but it just looks so lovely. I'll get some time and get it sorted at some point. So that'll be a belt, suspended deck, a DD drive and an idler drive. I am just very greedy.
As Confucius says: man can never have too many turntables ;)
Marco.
WOW!
Major thread drift.
Anyway,it's good to see there is more than 500 members and even better,the diversity of contributing members.
Dealers,manufacturers,DIYers,hobbyists and music lovers makes for a good and interesting forum.
Well done admin.
griffo104
10-10-2008, 10:57
Marco, your last reply to me is pretty spot on. The problem has come with CD with regards to turntables. As cd brought improvements, very few actually to do with music in my honest opinion, then in order to continue to compete and better the cd players, turntable manufacturers ahve removed some of their flavouring (artificial or natural) and tried to show how accurate and neutral a deck can be.
I have a major problem with SME and their decks in this respect. Yes, they are neutral but sometimes to the point of being too accurate and taking some of the fun out of it. If I had that sort of money then offerings from the likes of Brinkmann, Kuzma and Verdier all bring something more musical and less accurate.
Of course some of these companies don't have the huge economies of scale that a company such as Technics has available. Sourcing and machining of parts and quality looks do add to the pride of ownership that should come with the price of something like the LaGrange deck. In my opinion, I agree with you about the sound quality being more important than the looks but for any statement product there's no excuse for it to look like it's been knocked up in shed.
If the purchaser can justify the extra cost of the looks then why not ? As you mention it's form and function may be available at a lesser price but seeing quality workmanship on a product created in low numbers will always require a premium price.
As for going off topic from the original idea of the thread to improve the forum, I think openly chatting about hifi from both ye olde worlde turntables to modern computer based audio which thread has done, without any petty arguments, is exactly the kind of improvement a forum would want :)
this has been a thoroughly enjoyable thread. A forum is only as good as the topics being discussed and the participants. Get that right and the forum will sort itself out.
Anyway it Friday, it's nearly lunch time and I think I've earned a lunch time pint this week. :cool:
StanleyB
10-10-2008, 14:55
I am a member on a social forum where the administrator has brought in some worthwile ideas. These include:
1. Monthly report on the top 10 posters.
2. Monthly report on the top 5 thread starters.
3. Monthly report on new members signing up.
4. The top 5 posters and top 5 thread starters get a star for the month to show that they are tops. The number one posters and thread starters get it mentioned above their avatar as ' Ace of the Month'.
5. Come CHristmas time, the top three in each section gets a Christmas prize, donated by other members. Last year I won some HP ink cartridges. The top prize was a free dinner at one of the members' restaurant. Of course, that was an excuse for a forum meet, and many people showed up.
Maybe something in there for us to think about. It's all for fun, and that's what it should be.
Filterlab
10-10-2008, 15:09
Oooh, some nifty things there Stan, certainly worth bandying about in 'the office'. :)
StanleyB
10-10-2008, 16:03
I forgot to add that they also have a star as prize for the 'Most Honourable Member', which goes to someone who has done something outstanding that month. Like maybe help out with a project, fixing another member's car, etc.
Filterlab
10-10-2008, 19:00
I forgot to add that they also have a star as prize for the 'Most Honourable Member', which goes to someone who has done something outstanding that month. Like maybe help out with a project, fixing another member's car, etc.
That's a good idea, and strangely we were chatting about this the other day (admin and mods), it's a great way to recognise those that do a lot for the forum. :)
Like giving away a Goldring Lenco turntable.... :eyebrows:
Nah!.... This sort of thing really MUST exclude admin & mods... ;)
Otherwise Marco would probably win everything all the time... He can't resist blabbing on in just about EVERY thread! :lolsign: :ner:
Hehe... Why don't we post a poll and ask everyone what they think and then action whatever comes out as the most popular? :)
They're all good suggestions.
Marco.
Hehe... Why don't we post a poll and ask everyone what they think and then action whatever comes out as the most popular? :)
They're all good suggestions.
Marco.
Sounds like a plan to me! :smoking:
Fancy doing the necessary then, shweety? Make you earn yer 'wages' for a change ;)
Marco.
You'd need to make sure you reward quality as well as quantity.
Make you earn yer 'wages' for a change ;)
Where are they then? :confused:
On that boat from China, you know the one... :lolsign:
Marco.
Oh yeah... that one! :eyebrows:
Filterlab
11-10-2008, 08:51
...5. Come CHristmas time, the top three in each section gets a Christmas prize...
I think a signed photo of the admin team is more than enough of a quality prize in anyone's book. ;)
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/random_stuff/AdminTeamsigned800.jpg
Excellent idea, Rob. However I think your signed picture should be the one beautifully portrayed in Abstract Chat. Although, since it's almost Halloween, you could flash your willy and frighten any members of a 'leather shorts and moustache' persuasion :kiss::flasher:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
05-04-2010, 20:58
In connection with posts no. 75 & 76 on the 'From the Grave' thread:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3088&page=8
........I'd like to remind folks of what Stan suggested back in Post #99 a year and a half ago.
I am a member on a social forum where the administrator has brought in some worthwile ideas. These include:
1. Monthly report on the top 10 posters.
2. Monthly report on the top 5 thread starters.
3. Monthly report on new members signing up.
4. The top 5 posters and top 5 thread starters get a star for the month to show that they are tops. The number one posters and thread starters get it mentioned above their avatar as ' Ace of the Month'.
5. Come CHristmas time, the top three in each section gets a Christmas prize, donated by other members. Last year I won some HP ink cartridges. The top prize was a free dinner at one of the members' restaurant. Of course, that was an excuse for a forum meet, and many people showed up.
Maybe something in there for us to think about. It's all for fun, and that's what it should be.
Chris - is your 'From the Grave' posting inside the featured thread some kind of infinite loop regression thing?
The Grand Wazoo
05-04-2010, 21:38
Just think of it as a little sensitively applied positive feedback (& feedforward)..........or maybe just the Hall of mirrors!
http://visualfunhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/reflection-cube-optical-illusion.jpg
Too much for me.
'Night all..... :goodnight:
I must admit I laughed at this quote from Marco:
'I never really got the whole 'flat-earth' thing.'
Me neither!
Steve Toy
07-04-2010, 01:09
Try this:
If your hi-fi doesn't carry a tune it's f*cking useless regardless what else it may do!
I have been on bigger forums but have made this one my home.
The total lack of humor in one much larger forum has really made me feel privlaged to be a member at Art of Sound.
The one thing that would be cool is to be able to see our membership number in the order we joined. Like member 97 ect...
As we expand and take over the internet makeing all other audio chat sights dissapear do to lack of intrest,due to our tolerant and fun loveing nature infecting the cyber world and one day bringing world peace.We can say "we where there". GOD SPEED ART OF SOUND!
Beechwoods
07-04-2010, 06:30
If you click on your Username the page URL gives your 'membership number... yours is 323, mine is 320... I hadn't realised you'd joined so long ago! You were a 'sleeper' for ages!
Could we not get it to appear next to 'Join Date', etc? :)
Marco.
Beechwoods
07-04-2010, 06:40
I will look into it... :)
Luvvly jubbly! :cool:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2010, 15:21
So has anyone got any thoughts on Stan's suggestions then? Did the Admin folks discuss it in the end or not?
If you click on your Username the page URL gives your 'membership number'
Ooh, am I really 108?
"I am not a number, I am a free man!" Oh, ok, apparently not, I am a number - 1555. Jeff (Goraman) - you certainly where a sleeper, weren't you? That's kids/life/etc for you!? Lovin' your plans for world domination though (now, just need a white cat on my lap to stroke... :eyebrows:)
Yes,But i'm fully awake now.
My computer totaly died and I changed service providers and had a very hard time remembering my old password.And with a new babey and working 7 days aweek I just didn't make it a priority till things slowed down.
If you click on your Username the page URL gives your 'membership number... yours is 323, mine is 320... I hadn't realised you'd joined so long ago! You were a 'sleeper' for ages!
I just looked and we joined the same day!
5/25/08:cool:
The Grand Wazoo
10-04-2010, 00:20
Cough cough!
Jeez it was noisy in here for a bit!
Was there no publishable answer, or did no-one hear my question earlier?
So has anyone got any thoughts on Stan's suggestions then? Did the Admin folks discuss it in the end or not?
I am a member on a social forum where the administrator has brought in some worthwile ideas. These include:
1. Monthly report on the top 10 posters.
2. Monthly report on the top 5 thread starters.
3. Monthly report on new members signing up.
4. The top 5 posters and top 5 thread starters get a star for the month to show that they are tops. The number one posters and thread starters get it mentioned above their avatar as ' Ace of the Month'.
5. Come CHristmas time, the top three in each section gets a Christmas prize, donated by other members. Last year I won some HP ink cartridges. The top prize was a free dinner at one of the members' restaurant. Of course, that was an excuse for a forum meet, and many people showed up.
Maybe something in there for us to think about. It's all for fun, and that's what it should be.
I would be happy to donate my neigbors cat to any first prize winner out of the U.S.A.:cool:
Cough cough!
Jeez it was noisy in here for a bit!
Was there no publishable answer, or did no-one hear my question earlier?
I think it sounds like recipe for competitive posting and hence for quantity to take precedence over quality of posts.
So has anyone got any thoughts on Stan's suggestions then? Did the Admin folks discuss it in the end or not?
The number of variables to consider in order to turn usage statistics into something useful (a basis for a further analysis) are far too many, and most of them are not even considered.
In other words, present statistics can only be used to back up already-made conclusions.
A meal in a restaurant is much better. :)
I was expecting the 500 mark to arrive in the summer but since coming back from France yesterday I notice that my email inbox is full of alerts telling me of new members all within the space of 5 days.
The summer lull (that I guess I wasn't expecting) is now over and we can really press on with a number of projects as well as watch this place grow.
It's all good. :)
Well done Steve, Marco & Fiterlab!
The number of variables to consider in order to turn usage statistics into something useful (a basis for a further analysis) are far too many, and most of them are not even considered.
In other words, present statistics can only be used to back up already-made conclusions.
A meal in a restaurant is much better. :)
I organized two dinner last Winter in London, Do you want to organize one in in Paris
The Grand Wazoo
10-04-2010, 11:56
The number of variables to consider in order to turn usage statistics into something useful (a basis for a further analysis) are far too many, and most of them are not even considered.
In other words, present statistics can only be used to back up already-made conclusions.
A meal in a restaurant is much better. :)
The meal should be the awards ceremony!
The meal should be the awards ceremony!
What awards?
What awards?
The AoS drama queen awards!
The AoS drama queen awards!
:lolsign: Trust you are not asking for nominations for contenders!
Regards
:lolsign: Trust you are not asking for nominations for contenders!
Regards
Mheh! I think they self-nominate!
Mheh! I think they self-nominate!
Yes, that's what I thought.
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