View Full Version : "old" DAC wanted - any suggestions?
I'm looking around for a DAC to use with my Quad 67 CD player and QUAD 33/303 amps. I'm using my Caiman+Gator+Pardo psu for my main system and am looking for a simple DAC for the QUAD setup. Only need coax input absolutely don't need USB. Happy to buy second hand - I know I could buy another Caiman but would like to try something else.
Any suggestions?
Steve
The 67 wasn't bad on its own I remember, so you'll only be able to "change" the sound I think, rather than make it better.
At the time, I used one with the Deltec PDM1mk2 (with necessary 4A mains filter by Croft - as good and and much cheaper than Deltec's own) and liked the result. I replaced the lot with an AVI S2000 machine which, despite being awkward in use, gave great results using the TDA1541 chip.
How far have you gone with Quad 33 upodates? A Dada update and mod kit (£22 or so), coupled with the C400 cap change on the output cards, will transform the 33 into something bang up to date (without the huge expense of the net-Audio cards) and this alone will make a far bigger difference than "just" changing the DAC I feel. How's the 303 doing? Again, a re-cap and set-up would pay dividends of this hasn't been done and this will free the design from the constraints of the components available forty years ago.
Just a few jottings. Hope this is helpful.
The 67 wasn't bad on its own I remember, so you'll only be able to "change" the sound I think, rather than make it better.
At the time, I used one with the Deltec PDM1mk2 (with necessary 4A mains filter by Croft - as good and and much cheaper than Deltec's own) and liked the result. I replaced the lot with an AVI S2000 machine which, despite being awkward in use, gave great results using the TDA1541 chip.
How far have you gone with Quad 33 upodates? A Dada update and mod kit (£22 or so), coupled with the C400 cap change on the output cards, will transform the 33 into something bang up to date (without the huge expense of the net-Audio cards) and this alone will make a far bigger difference than "just" changing the DAC I feel. How's the 303 doing? Again, a re-cap and set-up would pay dividends of this hasn't been done and this will free the design from the constraints of the components available forty years ago.
Just a few jottings. Hope this is helpful.
Thanks Dave,
Yes the 67 isn't at all bad. The 33 and 303 have already had the full net-audio treatment and sound very fine indeed. I've got the 33/FM3 in an original teak case and they look the part as wel :)
Steve
Lovely. I should treat myself to a teak sleeve for mine :)
I bought a QED Digit/Positron from a very kind gent on here and am very impressed with the performance of the pair - better than I remember. Extra Positrons are rare and very expensive, but I wonder what an extra one would do.
I can't speak for the current inexpensive DAC's around, but a standard "StanDAC" won't be expensive and can have various mods done to improve it further. You have a Caiman already, so you know where to go with it..
At the time, I used one with the Deltec PDM1mk2 (with necessary 4A mains filter by Croft - as good and and much cheaper than Deltec's own) and liked the result.
.
There's one of these on Fleabay at the moment (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300560346748#ht_2529wt_1141) and he's got a DPA power supply. I've done a bit of googling and they still seem to be highly rated but comments about mucho RF noise production.
Must say I'm tempted - they do look tasty and vintage/aesthetics wise would go well with the Quads. :confused:
Steve
There's one of these on Fleabay at the moment (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300560346748#ht_2529wt_1141) and he's got a DPA power supply. I've done a bit of googling and they still seem to be highly rated but comments about mucho RF noise production.
Must say I'm tempted - they do look tasty and vintage/aesthetics wise would go well with the Quads. :confused:
Steve
This one replaced mine and was definitely better. I'm told the socketry gives difficult trouble today, but do look on the Acoustica site on the DPA page.
but do look on the Acoustica site on the DPA page.
Thanks for that Dave - helpful info. It does seem that the one for sale was the latest incarnation.
Steve
Rare Bird
30-05-2011, 12:14
Lovely. I should treat myself to a teak sleeve for mine :)
Make sure it's lagit, it should show sixteen end grain finger joint ontop :)
Ali Tait
30-05-2011, 12:30
You could try one of these, they are very good for the dosh-
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570&_nkw=valab+dac
The Quad 67 has one of the best delta/sigma DACs of all time the CS4328KP.
I bet Quad added on an (unnecessary) output stage, but this is not needed & will only serve to muddy the sound. In fact this DAC already has an awesome analogue stage built right in.
If you or anyone you know is reasonably adept with DIY then you could ask them to locate the DAC's analogue outputs (pin 2 & 26) & from there wire a 51ohm resistor in series followed by an 0.01uF cap (to ground) and from there wire straight to your RCA output sockets. :) This is from the CS4328 datasheet:
http://s4.postimage.org/4nxls7q0a/quad.gif
This config would should show most DACs a clean pair of heels including the Beresford. :)
If you or anyone you know is reasonably adept with DIY then you could ask them to locate the DAC's analogue outputs (pin 2 & 26) & from there wire a 51ohm resistor in series followed by an 0.01uF cap (to ground) and from there wire straight to your RCA output sockets. :) This is from the CS4328 datasheet:
This config would should show most DACs a clean pair of heels including the Beresford. :)
Now that is very interesting. Not sure I would trust myself to do the mod after taking the case off and peeping inside - tiger country!
If there is anyone reading this who would be willing to do it for me for a small fee plus all parts and shipping costs I would be very keen to try it out :)
Thanks for the info.
Steve
I used to have a DPA Little Bit which was a nice little dac, all the DPA dacs are still worth a shot and Chevron Audio can still service/repair and upgrade them.
There's one of these on Fleabay at the moment (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300560346748#ht_2529wt_1141) and
Steve
Thats the £2000 2 box PDM2 - rather tham the £500 single box PDM1 series 2
HighFidelityGuy
31-05-2011, 21:02
Hi Steve, I'd be willing to do that mod for you. It seems pretty straight forward based on what it says in the datasheet but the the level of complexity will depend on how much space there is in the CDP and the layout etc. I can certainly have a look and let you know whether I feel I could manage it. PM if you're interested. :)
Hi Steve, I'd be willing to do that mod for you. It seems pretty straight forward based on what it says in the datasheet but the the level of complexity will depend on how much space there is in the CDP and the layout etc. I can certainly have a look and let you know whether I feel I could manage it. PM if you're interested. :)
Nice. :) Had a look on eBay & there's one player going for £300 with a day of bidding and another at £475 buy it now. Shows this player is very much in demand.
May I recommend the following components:
0.01uf MKP-1837 x 2 (0.99c each)
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_visrod.html
1/2W 51r PRP resistors x 2 (0.45c each)
http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_prp_half_watt.html
If this does go ahead let me know and I can order these as part of my next order.
HighFidelityGuy
01-06-2011, 09:51
May I recommend the following components:
0.01uf MKP-1837 x 2 (0.99c each)
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_visrod.html
1/2W 51r PRP resistors x 2 (0.45c each)
http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_prp_half_watt.html
If this does go ahead let me know and I can order these as part of my next order.
Thanks Neil, I'll take those into consideration if Steve decides to take up my offer. I've not used those resistors before. So far I've had good results with takman metal film and Kiwame carbon film. Have you tried any of these and if so how would you compare them? I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on tant resistors as although I've used some once I wasn't able to compare them to anything. Cheers. :)
Thanks Neil, I'll take those into consideration if Steve decides to take up my offer. I've not used those resistors before. So far I've had good results with takman metal film and Kiwame carbon film. Have you tried any of these and if so how would you compare them? I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on tant resistors as although I've used some once I wasn't able to compare them to anything. Cheers. :)
Hi Takman are as good as PRP IMO & both are non-magnetic, but I tend to use 5W Kiwame (magnetic end caps) for things like tube power supplies & not signal path.
Regarding tants I have some 220r Shinkohs serving as I/V resistors in my DIY DAC build, but haven't tried them yet! Will let you know.
HighFidelityGuy
01-06-2011, 10:20
Hi Takman are as good as PRP IMO & both are non-magnetic, but I tend to use 5W Kiwame (magnetic end caps) for things like tube power supplies & not signal path.
Regarding tants I have some 220r Shinkohs serving as I/V resistors in my DIY DAC build, but haven't tried them yet! Will let you know.
Thanks, so do you find that non-magnetic end caps make a big difference? It's when you get down to those type of details that my head starts to hurt. It starts to become impossible to compare "features" between brands as while one brand may be non-magnetic, another brand uses a different conductor type or different metal combinations for the leads etc etc. Then as you hinted, some work better in different applications than others. The whole thing drives me mad. :doh: I'd be interested to hear any conclusions you've come to from experience in these areas. :)
Dave - you have a PM.
Steve
Thanks, so do you find that non-magnetic end caps make a big difference? It's when you get down to those type of details that my head starts to hurt. It starts to become impossible to compare "features" between brands as while one brand may be non-magnetic, another brand uses a different conductor type or different metal combinations for the leads etc etc. Then as you hinted, some work better in different applications than others. The whole thing drives me mad. :doh: I'd be interested to hear any conclusions you've come to from experience in these areas. :)
I always go for minimal magnetic parts count and use aluminium instead of steel for chassis with brass hardware instead of stainless steel. Some people will of course say that this is bollocks! Others including Avondale Audio & NVA adhere to minimum ferrous parts count.
Interesting comment here from Nelson Pass:
"In the past I've been able to see distortion at line level voltages and ma currents for signal lines in proximity to ferrous parts."
And an interesting post from John Curl: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/71189-john-curls-blowtorch-preamplifier-522.html#post1514894
There's one of these on Fleabay at the moment (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300560346748#ht_2529wt_1141) and he's got a DPA power supply. I've done a bit of googling and they still seem to be highly rated but comments about mucho RF noise production.
Must say I'm tempted - they do look tasty and vintage/aesthetics wise would go well with the Quads. :confused:
Steve
Hi Steve - can I chip in and say that I have a DPA PDM 2 for sale.. for a fair amount less than Emporium Hifi (that's been for sale on Ebay for over 6 months, originally at £650). I've mine advertised around the place (can't remember if I advertised it here..) for £450.
It is currently the DAC I listen to (but I've plans for modifying others that I want to get on with) and have never heard any RF problems. Indeed, from reading the reviews, I don't think the reviewers did either.. it came out in their measurements but didn't seem to effect their conclusion.
Mine has a higher serial number than the Emporium one, so perhaps it did have the RF problem sorted out by then?
Did you also know that DPA has reformed and is again offering their CD transport clocking modification called 'Deltran'? The PDM 2 has a clock output that is then fed to the transport via DPA's add-on board and locks the clocks of both DAC and transport together to eliminate clock jitter. Always wanted to try it myself.
Maybe you could try it out for a bit if you're not too far?
Hi Steve - can I chip in and say that I have a DPA PDM 2 for sale.. for a fair amount less than Emporium Hifi (that's been for sale on Ebay for over 6 months, originally at £650). I've mine advertised around the place (can't remember if I advertised it here..) for £450.
Drat :doh: I just ordered a new REGA dac as I just couldn't make my mind up but had decided to give the Emporium unit a miss - just got bad vibes. Otherwise I would definitely have bought yours - thanks for the offer though.
Regards
Steve
Did you also know that DPA has reformed and is again offering their CD transport clocking modification called 'Deltran'? The PDM 2 has a clock output that is then fed to the transport via DPA's add-on board and locks the clocks of both DAC and transport together to eliminate clock jitter. Always wanted to try it myself.
Andy
Chevron Audio should be able to offer this service, they clock linked my dac to my transport and it is a really good upgrade far better than the normal cdp upgrades on offer. They also modify the power supplies of DPA dacs for another performance boost.
Drat :doh: I just ordered a new REGA dac as I just couldn't make my mind up but had decided to give the Emporium unit a miss - just got bad vibes. Otherwise I would definitely have bought yours - thanks for the offer though.
Regards
Steve
For £400 you could do the following mods to your Quad 67:
Clock Upgrade
Output stage mod as described earlier
Capacitors upgrade around DAC in particular
Dedicated regulators for DAC
I know Brenton does similar mods: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/quad.html
Just think that this player has the potential to wipe the Rega DAC out...
Hi Steve, I'd be willing to do that mod for you. It seems pretty straight forward based on what it says in the datasheet but the the level of complexity will depend on how much space there is in the CDP and the layout etc. I can certainly have a look and let you know whether I feel I could manage it. PM if you're interested. :)
Dave (HiFidelityGuy) has worked wonders on the Quad 67 and it's sounding superb so respect is due to him.
Far more dynamic and punchy, more detail and control, more "airy and open" but amazingly there is still the "lush" Quad sound underneath - strange but true.
:cool:
Steve
HighFidelityGuy
15-06-2011, 16:35
Stop, I'm blushing. :o :lolsign:
For those interested I simply bypassed the active output stage as suggested earlier in the thread. I used the Vishay MKP-1837 caps recommended by Neil (Yomanze) and some lovely Shinkoh Tantalum resistors. I also replaced the PCB mounted phono sockets with some Neutrik chassis mounted sockets.
To allow the best to be obtained out of the passive output (and prevent high frequency roll-off) I also made up a custom interconnect cable made out of DNM solid core ultra low capacitance cable terminated with Neutrik Profi connectors at one end and a gold plated Neutrik 5-pin DIN plug at the other end to allow connection to Steve's modded Quad 33 preamp.
I was really quite surprised at the improvement the mod made. It's not subtle and definitely worth doing.
Thanks Steve, happy listening. :cool:
From the Grave
A chance for some folks to benefit from the advice offered here, who may not have read it first time round….. :)
Marco.
The Quad 67 player always was a very good design and a significant improvement over the earlier 66 model. I doubt if much improvement would be made in using an external DAC, since as has been noted, the internal DAC chipset used in the 67 is already very good.
The simplification of the output circuitry as described by Yomanze is very sensible advice - and it would appear, has been proven in practice by one happy user. :)
Any component that appears in the audio signal path needs to be of the highest quality, so choose carefully. If it were doing it, I would experiment with Vishay Z-film types, or other high quality metal film resistors. Avoid carbon and carbon-film types.
StanleyB
15-09-2014, 11:59
The Quad 67 player always was a very good design and a significant improvement over the earlier 66 model. I doubt if much improvement would be made in using an external DAC, since as has been noted, the internal DAC chipset used in the 67 is already very good.
The DAC chipset makes up only a fraction of the total that contributes to the overall sound. Within a CDP there are loads of sources of noise that can affect the performance of the decoded signal. Whirling motors, displays, etc all go towards creating a noisy environment. An external DAC does not have those bagage, and stands a better chance of sounding far better than a CDP.
The DAC chipset makes up only a fraction of the total that contributes to the overall sound. Within a CDP there are loads of sources of noise that can affect the performance of the decoded signal. Whirling motors, displays, etc all go towards creating a noisy environment. An external DAC does not have those bagage, and stands a better chance of sounding far better than a CDP.
Well I haven't seen inside a Quad 67, but would assume they had done the right thing in providing adequate screening and separate power supplies for the transport and digital circuitry.
I have experimented with using external DACs with my Sony CDP XB930QS player. I found the changes were small; a difference rather than improvement in SQ. Deciding that the fewer boxes the better, I have returned to using the internal DAC of the Sony. Of course that is not to say that an improvement could not me made, but based on my findings I am, at the moment, quite happy with the current arrangement.
loonytunes
15-09-2014, 13:16
I used to have a DPA Little Bit which was a nice little dac, all the DPA dacs are still worth a shot and Chevron Audio can still service/repair and upgrade them.
You caught me thinking about having a serious clear-out of some nice vintage gear - I can offer a perfectly working DPA Little Bit 3 DAC complete with DPA's own digital coax for £120. Owned by me from brand new.
I'm still thinking about it, but seeing as this thread was started I will see if anyone is interested (I have another two nice vintage DACs too).
The Quad 67 player always was a very good design and a significant improvement over the earlier 66 model. I doubt if much improvement would be made in using an external DAC, since as has been noted, the internal DAC chipset used in the 67 is already very good.
The simplification of the output circuitry as described by Yomanze is very sensible advice - and it would appear, has been proven in practice by one happy user. :)
Any component that appears in the audio signal path needs to be of the highest quality, so choose carefully. If it were doing it, I would experiment with Vishay Z-film types, or other high quality metal film resistors. Avoid carbon and carbon-film types.
The Quad 67 DAC has a great, built in MOSFET output stage (with dedicated analogue + and - power pins on the chip!) which is why the player and CS4328 DAC responds so well to the "datasheet" mod and cutting out an unnecessary buffer stage in the Quad 67.
I still need to build my deadbug mini DAC based around the CS4328 and CS8412 digital receiver, a handful of regulators, caps and resistors. Old school cool. :)
StanleyB
15-09-2014, 18:43
I still need to build my deadbug mini DAC based around the CS4328 and CS8412 digital receiver, a handful of regulators, caps and resistors. Old school cool. :)
That's if you can find a CS8412.
That's if you can find a CS8412.
I have a bunch of the old DIL "G" series receivers. :)
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