Amp upgrade(?)...new Rega Brio R or summit just a wee bit left field?

[Gazjam]

Was pleasantly surprised by the improvement slotting a different amp in my system made - one of the Mini-T digital chip amps? - over my current Cambridge 640A.

The 640A is a good budget amp for sure, but it didn't play nice with an upgrade to the Dac and it was outperformed by a £60 chipamp!
Think its time for something better.

Ali T recently brought over his diy open baffle speakers, Behrenger digital crossover box thingie and two Bantham gold Digital amps to drive the whole setup.
we tried the Bantham amp in my system and golly: was even more of an improvement.

So;
looking at amps now...and have three possible options on the table. I'll obviously go have a listen, but wonder what you guys think as well.

1)
New rega brio-R amp.
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/Brio-R.htm
Fab review here:
http://www.tonepublications.com/spotlight/rega-brio-r-worlds-first-review/

2)
Bantham Monoblock digital power amps feeding my Beresford Caiman/Gator acting as pre-amp.
http://www.templeaudio.net/monoblock.html

More modern implimentation than the Tri path chipset and at 40wpc all the volume Id need.
Beresford pretty good as a preamp, any advantage over the integrated rega using this type of setup?
These would biamp my speakers, passively though - so is there any real advantage?

and perhaps in a moment of madness..

3)
Compare my Caiman Dac to the Rega Dac and if its night and day improvement...buy the Rega dac, sell the Caiman and buy a single Bantam gold amp.
Would a massive improvement on the dac front (if indeed it is...not sure though as the Bersford is pretty great), be a more significant upgrade than changing the amp?

My intention is to take my Caiman and a "sale or return" set of the mono's and compare with the Rega amp and Dac.


*I know the speakers are important too - but planning on doing something special with them later on when the funds are there... ;)

thanks for any replies. :)

[jandl100]

*I know the speakers are important too - but planning on doing something special with them later on when the funds are there... ;)


Ummm ... well, it all depends on your funding, I reckon.

If you're looking to (eventually) spend a similar amount to the current amp/dac upgrade on speakers, then I'd do the speakers first. :)

I've always been a "speaker first" kind of audio person. For me, they set the tone and the overall presentation, and the source/amp should then be chosen to get the best out of them.

But if the plan is to spend more £££ on the speakers, then I'll leave you to it as I'm not familiar with any of the kit you mention except earlier versions of the Beresford DAC!

Hope that helps - but it probably doesn't! :lol:

[jandl100]

P.S. ... if you're planning to spend significantly extra on speakers, then I'd plan the amp/dac upgrade around the speakers you will have, not your current ones!

Yeah, I know - that can make it much trickier unless you can get amp/dac dems on your hoped for speakers! :scratch::eyebrows:

You're not a "Nut Job Boxswapper" like me, Gaz, so I reckon you need to get it right - especially if you're planning to buy new rather than used.

What sensitivity are your next speakers? Are they a difficult load? Are they valve friendly? Do they need serious bass control? Or maybe an excitable treble that needs a smoother amp/dac? .... etc etc

[Covenant]

Don't you think you would get better value secondhand Gaz?

[DSJR]

If that new Brio is as good as I suspect it is, spending the same second hand may not necessarily get you better, just old stuff past its best....

Isn't there a new Apollo CD player coming, in the same styling?

[hifi_dave]

The new Rega Brio R is indeed an exceptional amp for the money. It's one of those products that makes you think ' why spend more ? '

It will be joined, in the Autumn, by a new small size Apollo to match. They are both designed and made in Britain.

[Krisbee]

Beresford pretty good as a preamp, any advantage over the integrated rega using this type of setup?


None I can think of. But the rega has three things going for it: remote volume control, no need to worry about a better power supply as you might with the bantam, and you are no longer tied to the Caiman for it's preamp function.

Which leads to thinking the unthinkable, and getting a different Dac.

[wee tee cee]

Gaz,
Im running a musical fidelity m1 dac with a v link,bantum and kefs.If your intrested you could bring the caiman across to the south side and give it a comparison.I have a naim 5i and art audio valve pre power to hand if you want a comparison.
Regards Tony.

[Gazjam]

Gaz,
Im running a musical fidelity m1 dac with a v link,bantum and kefs.If your intrested you could bring the caiman across to the south side and give it a comparison.I have a naim 5i and art audio valve pre power to hand if you want a comparison.
Regards Tony.

Hey Tony, small world mate :)

That would be good actually, not heard much in the line of other Dacs and would be good to compare.
Also, I've always been curious how the Caiman plays out against summit like a Naim....

Problem is my Dacs out of action till the end of next week (needs burnt cap swapped out) so is it ok to PM you nearer the time Tony?


Thanks,
G. :cool:

[Gazjam]

None I can think of. But the rega has three things going for it: remote volume control, no need to worry about a better power supply as you might with the bantam, and you are no longer tied to the Caiman for it's preamp function.

Which leads to thinking the unthinkable, and getting a different Dac.


The "unthinkable" :lol:
On paper the Rega looks like the last amp I'd ever need honestly, if it sounds like it reads then its a bit special.

[Gazjam]

Don't you think you would get better value secondhand Gaz?

Dunno Jerry...always like to go new if the quality's there.
Bit of time before I decide, should be a few more Rega amp reviews online. :)

[John]

Using mono blocks on the AE109 will make a big difference I did this years ago
But perhaps if you upgrading the speakers it might be best to give us an idea of what route you taking and then decide
I know a lot of people say source first but these days I think on the whole we have source pretty well sussed

[Gazjam]

P.S. ... if you're planning to spend significantly extra on speakers, then I'd plan the amp/dac upgrade around the speakers you will have, not your current ones!

Yeah, I know - that can make it much trickier unless you can get amp/dac dems on your hoped for speakers! :scratch::eyebrows:

You're not a "Nut Job Boxswapper" like me, Gaz, so I reckon you need to get it right - especially if you're planning to buy new rather than used.

What sensitivity are your next speakers? Are they a difficult load? Are they valve friendly? Do they need serious bass control? Or maybe an excitable treble that needs a smoother amp/dac? .... etc etc

Hi Jerry,
The next speakers will probably be a DIY job open baffle high efficiency set I think.
Ali T brought his over and I was pretty much blown away by how open and "Real" they sounded.
Not as much bass as I would have expected though, open and airy would best describe the sound to me? Twin 15" drivers...surprised they never had my trouser legs flapping!
Im sure though there are OBs that do deep bass as well. :)

..or a 2nd hand pair of statics that do bass!

[Gazjam]

Using mono blocks on the AE109 will make a big difference I did this years ago
But perhaps if you upgrading the speakers it might be best to give us an idea of what route you taking and then decide
I know a lot of people say source first but these days I think on the whole we have source pretty well sussed

Good to know John, I had thought the AE's would respond well to some more grunt behind them.
Will demo the bantam mono's on the AE's in my system as the first step in the auditioning process, so will let y'all know how I get on.

I would like to do something special with the speakers so would probably be the last step in the upgrade...need to save a bit for them!
Not the ideal upgrade path maybe, but it would work best for me. :)

[DSJR]

Christ-on-a-bike, have you STILL got those godawful AE109's????

Any old amp cr@p will drive them and they're so veiled I doubt you'd hear much difference :lol:

Just buy the likes of a good used NAD 3020A for well under £50 and save up for some real speakers. Since you're not used to a screaming treble, or any treble for that matter :) I'd look at some Spendor S6/S6e or S8/S8e which are now going for well under a grand. Top notch cabinets, a huge chunk of the "BBC Legacy" and very room and amp friendly.

You could do a heck of a lot worse though and better will cost you far more...

[Ali Tait]

Hi Jerry,
The next speakers will probably be a DIY job open baffle high efficiency set I think.
Ali T brought his over and I was pretty much blown away by how open and "Real" they sounded.
Not as much bass as I would have expected though, open and airy would best describe the sound to me? Twin 15" drivers...surprised they never had my trouser legs flapping!
Im sure though there are OBs that do deep bass as well. :)

..or a 2nd hand pair of statics that do bass!

Aye, that's the thing about OB's mate, IMHO their bass is far more realistic than box speakers. It's easy to look at ob's like mine and expect huge bass from four 15 inch woofers, and, if they were in a bass bin, you would.

To me though, ob bass is far more realistic. I think those that have and are used to bass from conventional box loudspeakers get used to the subjectively deeper bass they produce, despite the fact that such bass is less accurate and has a large distortion component present usually.

The thing is, most of us ( I include myself) got used to the type of bass we get from box speakers, finding it deep and satisfying, and even fun with a good box speaker.

IMHO, it takes listening to a speaker without a box to realise how false the bass you have listened to previously is. Once you become accustomed to the presentation, listening to any box speaker becomes a chore.

Just MHO.

[wee tee cee]

Hey Tony, small world mate :)

That would be good actually, not heard much in the line of other Dacs and would be good to compare.
Also, I've always been curious how the Caiman plays out against summit like a Naim....

Problem is my Dacs out of action till the end of next week (needs burnt cap swapped out) so is it ok to PM you nearer the time Tony?


Thanks,
G. :cool:Aye,nae bother.
Get the caiman fighting fit for a square go with the MF1.If it leathers it,I may burst out greetin......

[John]

I totally agree with Ali about bass
I think the Augee bass driver do rock bass really well they might not do really deep electronic bass but everything else
I think the Bantams would work well with most OB drivers
I think be good to let us know what main driver u thinking off as some drivers very revealing

[jandl100]

Hi Jerry,
The next speakers will probably be a DIY job open baffle high efficiency set I think.
Ali T brought his over and I was pretty much blown away by how open and "Real" they sounded.
Not as much bass as I would have expected though, open and airy would best describe the sound to me? Twin 15" drivers...surprised they never had my trouser legs flapping!
Im sure though there are OBs that do deep bass as well. :)

..or a 2nd hand pair of statics that do bass!

Ah - yep, OK - I saw your enthusiastic posts about OB speakers after I wrote my piece.

As Ali says, you'll never get trouser flapping bass from an OB design (yeah, I know, never say never!! :lol: ... but I really don't think you will).

OB fans tend to get a bit defensive about the bass (as we have seen on this thread! :eyebrows:) and come out with the "different is better" sort of stuff. Me? - I'm a bit doubtful about that. I've never owned fully OB speakers for that very reason - I'm not convinced about the bass, and also several of the OB speakers I have heard have been a bit 'shouty'. And the light balance tends to show up any grainy colourations in the other kit in the system as well.

The nearest I have come to OB was my old SD1 speakers - but they had a "proper" 12 inch bass cone in a sealed box! :rock: and ProAc Future Point 5, also with a 'proper' bass enclosure but with a smaller woofer - and I was quite unhappy with those from the get-go. :(

Yes, pure OBs are fast and open, but I honestly think there's a touch of baby & bathwater about them.
I bet you'll be experimenting with a powered sub after a while. ;) ... but I'd also bet that it would be a hell of a job to integrate sensibly with an OB design.

___

Rega amps - I've not heard the latest generation, but unless they have massively changed their presentation I'd be surprised if they are a good match for OB speakers. IME Rega tends to the light and airy - same as OB speakers ... so that's light and airy squared ... not good synergy - especially if you have doubts about not enough bass from OBs already.

I'd strongly suggest an audition of the Rega amp with OB speakers before you part with your hard-earned cash.

___

Sorry that this post is all a bit negative, Gaz - but I have serious doubts about the direction that a fellah with your musical tastes is heading. :scratch:

[Ali Tait]

Not defensive Jerry, but I do think OB bass is more accurate. I think the bass from a lot of box speakers is artificially accentuated. It can sound satisfyingly deep, and people get used to it, and like it, but it is inaccurate nontheless.

It is true that a bass driver such as the Alpha used in an OB like mine will be -6 dB down in the bass, but the way round this is to use two, as Steve did when he built the ones I have.

[DSJR]

Depends on the speaker. Modern cheapo domestic cr@p has a boomed up "porty" bass for a boppy tone, but better "real" speakers don't do this I think.

I love the Rega RS5's for several hundred notes, which for me bridge the extremes so well and I look forward to hearing the bigger ones (7's) next time I visit hifi dave's place. perfect fir those suspicious of the smooth refinement of the Spendors I mentioned above...

OK, just ignore me - bloody OB's are the last things he should be looking at right now ;)

[hifi_dave]

Rega amps - I've not heard the latest generation, but unless they have massively changed their presentation I'd be surprised if they are a good match for OB speakers. IME Rega tends to the light and airy - same as OB speakers ...





There's nothing ' light and airy ' about the Rega Brio R, not in physical weight or sound.

[Ali Tait]

After becoming used to the OB's, and the large statics I have, box speakers all sound coloured to me now...

[jandl100]

After becoming used to the OB's, and the large statics I have, box speakers all sound coloured to me now...

Mayhap you just prefer the colourations of the OBs. ;)

It's all a compromise, though, isn't it. Yes, OBs can sound great in their way, when done well - I do enjoy the openness and hi rez in the mids, and the tautness and control in the bass can indeed be an earopener, although it's rather dry and lacking in welly for my taste - they have their faults and you just have to choose your own set of compromises that you wish to live with, imho! :)

[jandl100]

.... but I do think OB bass is more accurate.

More accurate than all bass-box drivers? :scratch: - you're lumping together and dismissing one hell of a lot of different implementations! :eyebrows:

I must admit, I think the 'woofers in a box' in my leetle MBLs are excellent. :) I've heard very good bass from many box speakers, some utter crap as well, of course, but that's life, innit.

... and I've heard OB speakers that sound utter pants - coarse, screechy, grainy, bass-less. Some have been much better than that, though.

[jandl100]

There's nothing ' light and airy ' about the Rega Brio R, not in physical weight or sound.

Fair enough, as I said I've not heard it.

But would you agree that the Brio R sound as you report it is a change in direction/emphasis for Rega? Or do you disagree with my description of their previous 'house sound'?

[hifi_dave]

Early Rega amps perhaps but not for some time. The previous Rega Brio was lively, punchy, solid and good fun. I've pitched that up against many far more expensive amps without letting the customers know what they were listening to. It was a 'giant killer' in the mould of the A&R A60 and Creek 4040 of their day.

The new Brio R is a very good amp by any standards and should be very popular.

[Tim]

The new Brio R is a very good amp by any standards and should be very popular.
How would it pair with Harbeth speakers David? I have been reading some very positive reports on the Brio R so far.

[hifi_dave]

Perfect. I only had the Rega Brio R here for a few hours and I used my Harbeth SHL5's and P3ESR's for the main audition. I also used it to good effect with the Rega RS5's.

[Ali Tait]

More accurate than all bass-box drivers? :scratch: - you're lumping together and dismissing one hell of a lot of different implementations! :eyebrows:

I must admit, I think the 'woofers in a box' in my leetle MBLs are excellent. :) I've heard very good bass from many box speakers, some utter crap as well, of course, but that's life, innit.

... and I've heard OB speakers that sound utter pants - coarse, screechy, grainy, bass-less. Some have been much better than that, though.
Yes, better than conventional bass driver in a box. After all, in an OB there is no box to sing along with the bass driver is there?

It's the same with statics, a lot of people percieve them as bass light, because they are used to the bass response of a conventional box speaker, when in fact it doesn't really get more transparent than a static does it? I'd maintain that a static's bass will have much less distortion and be faster and more accurate, due to the inherent strengths of their design, and IMHO an OB using conventional drivers gets a lot of the way towards a static because there is much less wood singing along.

[DSJR]

Perfect. I only had the Rega Brio R here for a few hours and I used my Harbeth SHL5's and P3ESR's for the main audition. I also used it to good effect with the Rega RS5's.

That review commented on the fact that it happily drove 1.7 Ohm loads without failure or instability.

[jandl100]

Yes, better than conventional bass driver in a box. After all, in an OB there is no box to sing along with the bass driver is there?

Well, imho that depends how well engineered the box is! :)


It's the same with statics, a lot of people percieve them as bass light, because they are used to the bass response of a conventional box speaker, when in fact it doesn't really get more transparent than a static does it?

Yes yes - you can get amazing bass transparency with a stat or OB, but that isn't the same thing at all as to whether it is bass light or not!
The old "flat earthers" used the same trick of having light bass in order to present a misleading perception of speed and tautness. Actually, they were just lacking deep bass! :lol:

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

That review commented on the fact that it happily drove 1.7 Ohm loads without failure or instability.
That is very easy, just filter the output stage and provide adequate heatsinking.

[SPS]

Well, imho that depends how well engineered the box is! :)



Yes yes - you can get amazing bass transparency with a stat or OB, but that isn't the same thing at all as to whether it is bass light or not!
The old "flat earthers" used the same trick of having light bass in order to present a misleading perception of speed and tautness. Actually, they were just lacking deep bass! :lol:


you have some good points there gerry, i can see what you feel about open baffle bass,

i was hooked onto OB's a few years ago and finally got close what want now,

most box speakers for me, have a few disavantges, mainly that they can add whats not really there, and yes some are much better than others at that,

the two disadvantages for me, over an open baffle, is firstly the box, which gives the speaker an air load, thats fine, but one of the main differences is that air load tend to slow the cone down down, removing a little of the bass/mid detail.

secondly most speakers are ported. there is a second output from the port

that port output is delayed to prevent cut off ( as open baffles do!)

as you know, the port is designed to re align the front and back outputs... but at points its can actually change the sound of the bass that is produced,
of course some box speakers are much better than others, usually those that dont go quite as low... or designed with less port output

and i would guess the other side( flat earthers?) is that many speakers are happy to avoid this by having more rolled off bass

as you know open baffles have disavantages too.. the size, and bass roll off, which can all be improved on to a point, my speakers have similar bass extension to a pair of 15" tannoys in corner cabs (and about that size) to give you some idea, but with that open baffle sound.

[jandl100]

Hi Steve

That's an interesting pair of speakers you have there by the sound of it! :) (are there any pics of them on the forum?)

Yep, you can engineer your way around the inherent limitations of OB given sufficient ££ and space, as you have done.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against the things, I've owned quite a few 'planar' speakers myself (stats and ribbons), so I am far from dedicated to the cones-in-a-box approach. And my own MBL speakers are a little, uh, "left field" when it comes to the mids and treble!

It's just that, to get back to Gazjam's initial query, he's gonna have to go it some in terms of space (and maybe cost) in order to engineer his way around the bass limitations of OBs for his choice in music. That's my main concern here.

Best of luck to Gaz if he can do it to his satisfaction. :cool:

[Reid Malenfant]

Apologies for this before i go any further, i'm not keen on drifting threads but this was brought up so it's relevant :scratch: :eyebrows:


<snip> most box speakers for me, have a few disavantges, mainly that they can add whats not really there, and yes some are much better than others at that
Different things are needed for deep bass & midrange. Deep bass needs a really stiff cabinet where as in the midrange it'd allow sound through like all hell because of that stiffness. Something like a couple of boxes one inside the other with a filling of sand betwen them or even an OB as you suggest would take care of this :)

the two disadvantages for me, over an open baffle, is firstly the box, which gives the speaker an air load, thats fine, but one of the main differences is that air load tend to slow the cone down down, removing a little of the bass/mid detail.
The driver already has an air load or you wouldn't hear anything, box or not. What you mean is it has an increased air load ;) Again if you used a sub you could possibly run an OB down to say 50 - 70Hz & use a well designed sub to get the bottom octaves!

secondly most speakers are ported. there is a second output from the port

that port output is delayed to prevent cut off ( as open baffles do!)
I just modelled a bass driver in a 10,000L cabinet that has a VAS of 200L, comparing it to what i'm going to use the group delay is only about 4ms worse at 20Hz, which is bugger all :eyebrows: The driver in the effective IB had a delay of 6 - 7ms, you'll get it anyway due to the mechanics of driver design & resonance.

as you know, the port is designed to re align the front and back outputs... but at points its can actually change the sound of the bass that is produced,
of course some box speakers are much better than others, usually those that dont go quite as low... or designed with less port output
If the port is badly designed it will cause turbulence at high sound levels admittedly. Answer is use an Auxiliary Bass Radiator - problem solved.

and i would guess the other side( flat earthers?) is that many speakers are happy to avoid this by having more rolled off bass
Not me baby, i'm going down to 10Hz :eyebrows:

[SPS]

nice post mark, i dont agree with some of it... but we all have our own views about how different topoligies affect the sound

the thing for me is the the guy who likes open baffles,has his own reasons and the guy who likes the sound of box speakers,also has his own reasons...

now there are some well done box bass, and i hope you succeed with your speakers mark...

in fact i would love to hear them when they are completed..

the great thing about hi fi is that the different camps can state their case, and who's to say what right...

sorry for adding to the side track,

[jandl100]

10Hz bass? :doh:

Isn't that against the Geneva Convention? :scratch:

:)

[Ali Tait]

Yes yes - you can get amazing bass transparency with a stat or OB, but that isn't the same thing at all as to whether it is bass light or not!

Well, yes it can be. Because a lot of the distortion is absent, the bass can subjectively be perceived as light, when in fact it's reproducing deeper notes cleanly, so they sound lighter than they are. Even Quad 57's will go down to 40Hz or so. I agree they can sound subjectively light in the bass, but they are reproducing the lower frequencies, just doing it more cleanly than we are usually used to.

[SPS]

10Hz bass? :doh:

Isn't that against the Geneva Convention? :scratch:

:)

i'm afraid I cant hear 10 hz, 20 htz is just starting to feel like the air is shaking, 25 htz starts to make sense with my ears.

so open baffles are fine for me...getting old...

[Reid Malenfant]

Nah, unless bass is boosted due to the inherent rolloff caused by the lack of baffle then it's definately 'light' ;) You just can't get around the laws of physics!

Personally you OB guys should possibly look at a very well built boxed sub running to say 70Hz & an OB above that :) imo

[Reid Malenfant]

i'm afraid I cant hear 10 hz, 20 htz is just starting to feel like the air is shaking, 25 htz starts to make sense with my ears.

so open baffles are fine for me...getting old...
I can't 'hear' 10Hz either, but i can certainly feel 15Hz in room so 10Hz isn't out of the question. Personally i wouldn't want to be without that realism having experienced it ;) I reckon my hearing goes bye bye at about 19Hz, below that & at realistic levels you won't fail to feel it - trust me :eyebrows:

[SPS]

Nah, unless bass is boosted due to the inherent rolloff caused by the lack of baffle then it's definately 'light' ;) You just can't get around the laws of physics!

Personally you OB guys should possibly look at a very well built boxed sub running to say 70Hz & an OB above that :) imo

thanks mark .. that really made me laugh...

cheers....

but... i dont think I want a sub in my system

i dont think i've heard one i'd want to listen to.... yet
tell me a decent one...?

[SPS]

I can't 'hear' 10Hz either, but i can certainly feel 15Hz in room so 10Hz isn't out of the question. Personally i wouldn't want to be without that realism having experienced it ;) I reckon my hearing goes bye bye at about 19Hz, below that & at realistic levels you won't fail to feel it - trust me :eyebrows:


well if can feel 20 hz and clearly hear 25 htz with my open baffles, all with a watt or two driving them... i can't be far behind what you are trying to achieve?

[Reid Malenfant]

Rel Studio, or build your own :)

Not many of them could honestly be called subwoofers imo (well to me anyway) as to me it's about sub bass, below what you can hear ;)

[Reid Malenfant]

well if can feel 20 hz and clearly hear 25 htz with my open baffles, all with a watt or two driving them... i can't be far behind what you are trying to achieve?
Maybe not :) But try asking your speakers to produce 114Db @ 10Hz & see how they like it :lolsign:

I'll never (i don't think) be listening at that level, but the thing is they'll do it... What that means is that at any reasonable level distortion will be a non entity :)

[SPS]

Maybe not :) But try asking your speakers to produce 114Db @ 10Hz & see how they like it :lolsign:

I'll never (i don't think) be listening at that level, but the thing is they'll do it... What that means is that at any reasonable level distortion will be a non entity :)

this is turning into a competion mark...

my last baffle set up was at owston using nearly the same drivers, i would guess at times was close to 115 db's,
but at 10 htz no, ...we play music!!
I like to listen loud though,
I use a 2 1/2 watt amp at home so i dont turn it up too loud, but i still can get 108db peaks, and it sounds clean and more importantly still very dynamic. even though i'm over driving the amp a tad.

[Reid Malenfant]

No competition, i simply want & am going to build a pair of speakers that will have virtually vanishing distortion at even loud levels. At stupid levels they'll distort like others would playing very loud.

Did you guess i was single? :eyebrows:

Off to watch a film, another reason to go deep... All the best chap!

[Gazjam]

fascinating stuff guys, good reading.
keep it up! :)

More lengthy contribution tommorow, wine bottle half full (hic), quality tunes tonight, Zappa, Nick Drake, Elliot Brood, Ray Charles, Joe Bonemassa...

Even on my AE109's.. ;)
Kinda reminds us its about the music. no?

later.
G.