View Full Version : Mains cables-myth or fact?
Covenant
24-05-2011, 19:02
If there is one hifi issue I treat with suspicion its the thorny question of aftermarket power cables but my Croft amp came with a manky old cable that is begging to be put in the bin.:)
Now my house is new-ish and the wiring seems ok, no RF issues. Is there any point in replacing it and whats good out there?
Reid Malenfant
24-05-2011, 19:09
Our very own Mark Grant & his DSP 2.5 ;) My whole rack is wired with that & DSP 1.0 for stuff that has a figure of 8 connector such as my BD player & SVHS video.
Great stuff imho
Can you borrow ine from a friend and try out and see if it works for you
Covenant
24-05-2011, 19:27
Can you borrow ine from a friend and try out and see if it works for you
I suppose I could John but I would like to hear some comments from people who have had a life changing experience from replacing their mains cables!
Rare Bird
24-05-2011, 19:39
I suppose I could John but I would like to hear some comments from people who have had a life changing experience from replacing their mains cables!
never had a life changing experience.. As long as it has a braided sheild/foil /drain wire i'm pretty happy with that..
I suppose I could John but I would like to hear some comments from people who have had a life changing experience from replacing their mains cables!
I use Chord Company PowerChords and whilst I wouldn't describe the change as 'life changing', it certainly improved my system, especially the amplifier. I think you should be able to buy some from Mark Grant or Mains Cables R Us and if you are not happy, send them back? I'm pretty sure Mark does this, not sure about MCRU, but you can PM them to double check their terms of sale?
I certainly think it's worthwhile and wouldn't use an ordinary cable on an amplifier any-more, but ultimately it's something you really need to investigate yourself.
I use them and like them But mains cable talk is something that divides people so u have to find out for yourself as so many views on this subject
magiccarpetride
24-05-2011, 19:45
I suppose I could John but I would like to hear some comments from people who have had a life changing experience from replacing their mains cables!
I'm using Nordost Magus for my power amp, the improvements are subtle but worth it. Most noticeably in the area of dynamics, louder passages now really appear much louder.
But if the music you like to listen to is not dynamic, then maybe it's not worth the expense.
Reid Malenfant
24-05-2011, 19:50
I'd have thought there were two views John :scratch: They make no difference or they do :eyebrows:
There definately is some basis for upping the conductor area of the cable simply because it'll get you a lower impedance mains supply which can only be a good thing with a power amplifier. As Andr'e mentioned screening & a drain wire to connect to earth just ad icing to the cake imo
Thing Fish
24-05-2011, 19:52
Is it not possible to buy good quality mains cable/connectors and assemble your own power cables?
MK can't manafacture all the plugs out there? There must be hospital grade manafactures.
I will do some investagating and report back.
I'd have thought there were two views John :scratch: They make no difference or they do :eyebrows:
There definately is some basis for upping the conductor area of the cable simply because it'll get you a lower impedance mains supply which can only be a good thing with a power amplifier. As Andr'e mentioned screening & a drain wire to connect to earth just ad icing to the cake imo
LOL:)
Covenant
24-05-2011, 19:55
never had a life changing experience.. As long as it has a braided sheild/foil /drain wire i'm pretty happy with that..
The drain wire thing seems to make sense. I have read reviews were they say that its needed.
So, taking on board the make your own comments, how about this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Belden-Audiophile-mains-cable-3-shielded-best-/150600775718?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item2310817826
Mark Grant
24-05-2011, 19:56
I think you should be able to buy some from Mark Grant or Mains Cables R Us and if you are not happy, send them back? I'm pretty sure Mark does this, not sure about MCRU, but you can PM them to double check their terms of sale?
30 days returns for me :)
Hardly any are ever returned.
Every seller has to have at least 7 days returns policy, even ebay sellers have to accept returns :)
Covenant
24-05-2011, 19:59
There is a terrible temptation to buy something because its good quality/nice looking/high-tec but is the perceived benefit in our imagination?
There is a terrible temptation to buy something because its good quality/nice looking/high-tec but is the perceived benefit in our imagination?
Only you can be the judge of that, in your own room, with your own equipment :)
Thing Fish
24-05-2011, 20:04
After a brief 5 min search I found these - http://www.tm3connections.com/displayproduct.php?product_id=160&category_id=84
Silver pins and a silver fuse for under a tenner! must be worth a punt?
I'll keep searching...
Look, there is no such thing as a sooper dooper aftermarket mains cable :rolleyes:
Start at the other end by thinking the bog standard freebie 'kettle lead' is crap then it will begin to make perfect sense. You are not putting IN a sooper dooper power cord, you are TAKING OUT the inadequate poor excuse of a mains cable that probably cost less than a penny to manufacture that is given away errrrm . . . . "free".
Never mind about 6 x 9's purity of copper, never mind a decent gauge of wire, never mind high quality insulation, it meets the bare essential regulations that it won't spill leccy all over your carpet.
Take that rubbish out and put in a sooper dooper mains cable and all you have done is replaced the cheap nasty mains cable with one that has LESS inherent flaws. The more money you spend, in theory (and allegedly) you buy cables with less imperfections, but there is no such thing as a perfect cable at the end of the rainbow, so never lose sight of that fact either.
Align that above with the notion that between the back of your component(s) and the power station is a loop of alternating current which is travelling in a conduit a damn sight thicker than your domestic house wiring and the real bottlenecks begin at the wall socket in your home. If your puny 0.25mm squared gauge of wire is the narrowest point in that current flow. it's not rocket science to deduce that is the bottleneck in the system (the fuse is, but let's not go there shall we?). It's very much like connecting a 4 inch water pipe to a one inch water pipe, so which one determines the maximum water flow?
Within the components themselves there can be small gauge wire within and even smaller rated fuses, so than too can be the limiting factor, so no sooper dooper power cord is gonna change that much of the total current flow through the entire system back to the power station. Components with switch mode power supplies respond less to a power cord upgrade.
Not many people know what to expect from a power cord "upgrade" so they may have a decent effect, but not what the recipient is expecting. I always focus on the bass which becomes far less boomy and lot more coherent and articulate. Get someone else to change the power cord while you are out of the room completely and hopefully you will experience the properties better.
Support us and we will support you with good deals and special offers as I have been doing since I joined, many AOS members have benefitted from my 10% discount code and continue to do so, I have sold approx. 650 metres of belden 19364 cable in the last 12 months, LAPP about the same, some like to build their own but I say leave it to the experts, yes you may make it for less than I and Mark sell it for but we don't just stick 2 connectors onto a piece of wire, care and attention goes into the assembly, I personally put silver plated crimp sleeves on the end of all the bare wires before clamping them down and spray all the insides with de-oxit.
Perhaps ask the owner of this very forum about his experiences with mains leads as a starter, you may find it illuminating! The mains supply in the UK is much like running your car on dirty petrol, it will run but not well and not for long.
The distance selling regulations dictate anything bought new off a website can be returned within 7 days.
Mark Grant
24-05-2011, 20:36
After a brief 5 min search I found these - http://www.tm3connections.com/displayproduct.php?product_id=160&category_id=84
Silver pins and a silver fuse for under a tenner! must be worth a punt?
I'll keep searching...
Costs slightly less here and the customer service is excellent, low postage prices too :)
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=45_16
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There you go Jerry, positive replies from all and clarification from our two members who sell the products. I for one would recommend supporting them - it's win win I reckon and what have you got to lose ;)
After a brief 5 min search I found these - http://www.tm3connections.com/displayproduct.php?product_id=160&category_id=84
Silver pins and a silver fuse for under a tenner! must be worth a punt?
I'll keep searching...
after a brief search I also found these, :)
Plug (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_469594-MK-655-Silver-PlatedToughplug-Cryogenically-Treated-Audio-Grade.html)
Another plug (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_16&products_id=36)
IEC (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_469291-Martin-Kaiser-Silver-Plated-Cryo-Treated-IEC-Connector-from-MainsCablesRUs.html)
Another IEC (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_16&products_id=112)
thanks for looking
Mark Grant and Mains Cables R Us, why go anywhere else? :)
(http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/ourshop/prod_469594-MK-655-Silver-PlatedToughplug-Cryogenically-Treated-Audio-Grade.html)
Mark Grant and Mains Cables R Us, why go anywhere else? :)
+1
But make sure whatever you buy has been cryogenically turbolated so that those electrons flow freely. Failing that at least get some decent connectors both ends.
Costs slightly less here and the customer service is excellent, low postage prices too
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/in...ex&cPath=45_16
Can't argue with that! :eyebrows:
Frank talks a lot of sense, obviously based on considerable experience. I'll comment more on the issue of mains cables later.
Marco.
But make sure whatever you buy has been cryogenically turbolated so that those electrons flow freely. Failing that at least get some decent connectors both ends.
turbolated..??????????????
Frank talks a lot of sense, obviously based on considerable experience.
Marco.
Yes indeed Marco, it hit me like a bolt of lightning around 2001 the first time I added an upgrade mains block as I installed more and more decent power cords into my system. I realised then I was wasn't adding "better" mains cables to the system and getting sound performance gains from that, I was in fact taking out all the "inferior" ones so I was reducing the number of imperfections in the cabling chain :eyebrows: This was then borne out by dismantling all the freebie leads to see just how grim they were - one had about 5 strands of thin gauge wire and virtually black, so no tears shed from removing that one.
Still using one of your "Titan" leads here Frank, very happy with it.
Have a length of Marks Grants cable (oo-er) and its a very well made, solid product, like his interconnects.
Mains Cables R us...you too.
Group hug...:)
Jerry, I've one you could try on loan if you could be bothered, but If I were you I'd take Mark G up on his 30 Day trial.
..other cable manufacturers are available of course ;)
A way to think of it is that its another OCD box ticked, and doesn't need to cost huge a wodge of cash.
Mark Grant
24-05-2011, 21:11
Components with switch mode power supplies respond less to a power cord upgrade.
Although the device that results in the most positive comments in emails from my customers is a sky box, they have a very low cost switch mode PSU as I am sure you have seen.
On a well known Audio visual forum where mains cables threads are usually closed rapidly there was a member who caused loads of arguments saying it a scam.
I contacted him and offered to loan him a cable, he tried it on his sky box and then bought another one for his brother :) made my week that did, he never did admit it on the forum though :)
One of these: http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_18&products_id=47
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Mark Grant
24-05-2011, 21:14
- one had about 5 strands of thin gauge wire and virtually black
Probably recycled China copper if it was nearly black, its cheap for manufacturers though and nearly everyone buys on price.
Although the device that results in the most positive comments in emails from my customers is a sky box, they have a very low cost switch mode PSU as I am sure you have seen.
On a well known Audio visual forum where mains cables threads are usually closed rapidly there was a member who caused loads of arguments saying it a scam.
I contacted him and offered to loan him a cable, he tried it on his sky box and then bought another one for his brother :) made my week that did, he never did admit it on the forum though :)
One of these: http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_18&products_id=47
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More of a generalism than specifics about SMPS Mark, as many Linn owners will testify :)
Indeed, on another well known forum there are one or two hard bitten cynics that coughed up the cash when they had a week's home trial. Admit it? Never :lol:
Mark Grant
24-05-2011, 21:18
To admit a difference was heard or seen would loose face on the forums :)
Covenant
24-05-2011, 21:23
Still using one of your "Titan" leads here Frank, very happy with it.
Have a length of Marks Grants cable (oo-er) and its a very well made, solid product, like his interconnects.
Mains Cables R us...you too.
Group hug...:)
Jerry, I've one you could try on loan if you could be bothered, but If I were you I'd take Mark G up on his 30 Day trial.
..other cable manufacturers are available of course ;)
A way to think of it is that its another OCD box ticked, and doesn't need to cost huge a wodge of cash.
Thanks Gaz,
Just want to get more comments from people who felt they got a genuine benefit from a particular mains cable.
Covenant
24-05-2011, 21:29
To admit a difference was heard or seen would loose face on the forums :)
I think its more to do with being made to feel foolish if you admit to hearing an improvement. Cable wars produce two camps, both vitriolic. This forum is a bit more reserved on the whole. No one has said anything upleasant up to now!;)
wee tee cee
24-05-2011, 22:56
I initially dipped my toe in the water with B&Q 25amp cable,it has a black rubber outer sleeve about £16 for a 5m length.A couple of maplin IECs and a MK tough plug each.Give the plug pins and fuse a clean with brasso.Hey presto a nice cheap mains lead that to my ears sounded better than the standard naim leads on my amp and cdp.All in about a tenner each.
I currently run with a silver mk plug ,lo-rad 2,5mm cable and watgate IEC.(in addition phonosophie fuses,theyre expensive because theyre coated in exotic snake oil)Sound great on any equipment I have plugged them into.
Regards Tony.
Cable wars produce two camps, both vitriolic. This forum is a bit more reserved on the whole. No one has said anything upleasant up to now!;)
Cable wars are usually caused by the cynics who mistakenly think that they are:
1) Entitled to poke their nose in without being ever invited to. "Is cable A a better than cable B in my system?" isn't a question that demands the usual cynic's flaming and trolling is it?
2) That a series of PRIMITIVE scientific measurements are the be-all and end-all of their stance. I have heard cables with identical LCR characterists that sounded world's apart, so there must be other factors at play.
3) That dragging irrelevent data into the debate like placebo and experimenter expectation gives some sort of "validity" to their argument. Ask any of them how many peer reviewed studies of placebo effect have yielded more than TWO consecutive instances of documented placebo in the same subject and they go strangely silent. TWO instances of proven placebo in just one individual is a very far cry from the many years of countless THOUSANDS of times I have listened to cables.
4) Because the cynics are totally relying on those ineffectual objective measurements and that irrelevant/misguided data, it then means they have an automatic default licence to insult the intelligence of people who can clearly and repeatedly do hear the differences, by saying they are "delusional". It is the inference that I am either delusional or subject to constant placebo that brings out the worst in me because I am being personally attacked by people who naively believe they occupy a more "superior" position than I do.
5) Finally, I have yet to get any cynic to put their money where their mouth is and be subject to a test I devised that is so simple and foolproof, rather than the deplorable ABX routine which is nigh on impossible to maintain to a consistent standard when asked to determine a purely subjective outcome. Not one of them has even come along to a friendly bakeoff when cordially invited, which tells it's own story. I offered one clown a cheque for £1,000 if his two a penny cabling set could see off the cables in my own system in a straight simple listening test. Cheque is still here waiting.
jantheman
25-05-2011, 13:07
I run an extension lead from the bedroom to downstairs on tha basis of this simple theory...electrons have mass and are therefore effected by gravity so...plugging in upstairs and letting the electrons flow downhill give me that extra little boost to the supply.......:lolsign:
Costs slightly less here and the customer service is excellent, low postage prices too :)
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=45_16
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I'm also not sure about whether changing mains cables makes a difference. I KNOW interconnects and speaker leads make a huge difference but I've never really tried that hard to investigate mains leads. After all, how can the last couple of metres of the mains make a difference...?
Having said that and to echo a point Frank made, if all my mains leads are crappy freebee kettle leads and computer cables better ones might be less bad, so "hearable"....I've got an open mind on it, a couple of peaople I respect swear they make a difference so I'm prepared to be convinced:sofa:
Hi Frank,
Finally, I have yet to get any cynic to put their money where their mouth is and be subject to a test I devised that is so simple and foolproof, rather than the deplorable ABX routine which is nigh on impossible to maintain to a consistent standard when asked to determine a purely subjective outcome.
May I ask what your test entails? :)
Incidentlly, I totally agree with your points 1-5 (above), particularly No 4, as that shit also makes me lose the plot!
Marco.
I'm also not sure about whether changing mains cables makes a difference. I KNOW interconnects and speaker leads make a huge difference but I've never really tried that hard to investigate mains leads. After all, how can the last couple of metres of the mains make a difference...?
Having said that and to echo a point Frank made, if all my mains leads are crappy freebee kettle leads and computer cables better ones might be less bad, so "hearable"....I've got an open mind on it, a couple of peaople I respect swear they make a difference so I'm prepared to be convinced:sofa:
If you are using stock ac cables on Avantgarde woofer modules, try some reputedly "fast" cords and see what you think.
Might be pleasantly surprised if you choose the right ones.
Reid Malenfant
25-05-2011, 15:24
<snip> After all, how can the last couple of metres of the mains make a difference...?
Quite easily as it happens :)
I think most people would imagine the biggest bottleneck to be a mains fuse. I'm not so sure about this tbh & i'll see if i can explain :eyebrows:
The cable inbedded in the walls of houses tends to be 2.5mm^2 cable in the form of a ring. This actually gives a nice fat 5mm^2 conductor size back to the consumer unit. This is quite important as what we are attempting to do is make a nice low impedance connection to our equipment, definately in the case of a reasonably high power amplifier. You see an amplifier due to the capacitor bank following the transformer & rectifier bridge only draws current from the mains on voltage peaks. Due to the very narrow current pulses every 100th of a second these current pulses are pretty high, probably exceeding the mains fuse rating by quite a significant amount.
Now the fuse may be a bottleneck, but it's a very short bit of thin wire. On the other hand there could well be 2M or more of only slightly thicker wire from the mains plug to the amplifier. While the fuse itself may have X resistance, the thin giveaway cable may have much more resistance than the fuse even with thicker wire because it's possibly 140 odd times longer that the wire in the fuse (assuming 6ft or 2M each way [Live & Neutral]).
Cables are important imo :cool:
It really started in earnest over 20 years ago with this guy (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/7885.html), and has been on-going ever since. The cable he talks about is still for sale (I should hope so as I sell 100's of metres a year). Any doubters should buy a metre and make up a simple power cord to see if they hear an improvement, total cost for a 1 metre DIY version £22.50, wouldn't even buy a round of drinks on a stag do!
In fact I will send anyone who wants to try one a metre of cable, mains plug and iec as a special offer for doubters for the price quoted, post free, now that's worth a punt surely?
Covenant
25-05-2011, 20:42
It really started in earnest over 20 years ago with this guy (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/7885.html), and has been on-going ever since. The cable he talks about is still for sale (I should hope so as I sell 100's of metres a year). Any doubters should buy a metre and make up a simple power cord to see if they hear an improvement, total cost for a 1 metre DIY version £22.50, wouldn't even buy a round of drinks on a stag do!
In fact I will send anyone who wants to try one a metre of cable, mains plug and iec as a special offer for doubters for the price quoted, post free, now that's worth a punt surely?
Well I suppose it would be mean of me to not take up your offer as I started the thread. PM on its way. :)
Well I suppose it would be mean of me to not take up your offer as I started the thread. PM on its way. :)
Let us know what you think?
Covenant
02-06-2011, 19:49
Let us know what you think?
The new power cord has arrived and is installed, thanks to Mains Cables R Us. Looks a strong piece of engineering and it works!
I will give it a few days connected to my amp before making any comment on perceived alterations to the SQ.
Thanks Jerry,
For anyone wondering what it is like, it is similar to this one, a basic good quality cable with silver plated IEC and mains plug, I put 2 ferrite rings on the 1 I sent to Jerry, hope they do the business for you.
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/JBA/_DSC8978-em.jpg (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/148-mains-cables-r-us-no14-mains-lead.html)
Rare Bird
02-06-2011, 21:34
I like that cable (when covered up with braided sleeve) i use it on the mains extension block.. it's a bit stiff but great stuff..
I like that cable (when covered up with braided sleeve) I use it on the mains extension block.. it's a bit stiff but great stuff..
Why cover it with braided sleeving?
To make it look posh ;)
Can it be economically done with 3/4m IEC plug to socket? I have a couple of similar chunky mains cables which came with my Tube Technology power amps. The gauge is far heavier than that normally supplied and despite their age they still work fine :)
Peter Stockwell
02-06-2011, 23:58
After all, how can the last couple of metres of the mains make a difference...?
The way I hear/see/try to explain it to myself is:
The incoming mains is more or less polluted with either random noise, or harmonic noise (Harmonics of 50 or 60Hz up to Mhz).
The more you can do to reduce this pollution, like a separate circuit for your hifi, the better.
That mains cables act as filters to clear the "rubbish", before it arrives to your gear.
None of the above is based on scientific research, it's just the way I've come to think about things.
Currently (oops) very pleased with Mark Grant 2.5 DSP.
Rare Bird
03-06-2011, 17:29
Why cover it with braided sleeving?
This is it after i put the braided sleeve on
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Belden.jpg
Ah, now that looks much more like something a chap would wrap around his winkle!
Marco.
Covenant
03-06-2011, 18:25
So whats the general opinion on replacing the mains socket with an upmarket one?
First Jerry can you tell us how you got on
In my view good quality connections make a big difference
Covenant
03-06-2011, 19:39
Patience Grasshopper :eyebrows:.....
I want to give it a few days John, then swap back my old mains cable. Probably do that on Sunday.
Reid Malenfant
03-06-2011, 19:40
Hi Jerry, this may be obvious but please try to listen to the same music when comparing differences ;)
Covenant
03-06-2011, 19:54
Hi Jerry, this may be obvious but please try to listen to the same music when comparing differences ;)
I am using a hires recording of Peter Gabriel "Scratch My Back" as a reference. Lovely album, sounds great.
Reid Malenfant
03-06-2011, 19:59
Excellent, that you have a reference that is :lol:
Have a good weekend Jerry :cool:
Ah, now that looks much more like something a chap would wrap around his winkle!
Marco.
Blimey Marco, you have a very small winkle :lol:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
04-06-2011, 15:05
Drill a hole in your amp case and hard wire, and get rid of the bloody awful sounding IEC sockets and plugs.
Drill a hole in your amp case and hard wire, and get rid of the bloody awful sounding IEC sockets and plugs.
:lol: Lol, I like your style.......... but how many people here do you reckon will drill holes in their precious amp cases?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
04-06-2011, 15:58
They seem to completely rebuilt turntables to make them sound better. Everyone talks about cable quality and the plug and socket on the other end of the lead and how that interfaces with the mains and yet the biggest disaster in the chain is ignored. Makes sense doesn't it :scratch:
Covenant
04-06-2011, 16:26
I have to respect your opinion Richard as I have tried all sorts of interconnect cables and never found anything better than your Sound Pipes. (Memo to self-get Super Sound Pipes!). What power connector do you use on NVA kit?
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
04-06-2011, 17:56
None!
I hard wire.
I do this for two reason 1/ because I want to 2/ because I have to.
I want to because IEC plugs and sockets are horrible things even worse than UK 13 amp plugs, and that is saying something. The old 15 amp round pin was far better sonically. AND there is only one thing better than the best plug and socket you can buy and that is no plug and socket.
I have to because I now use Class2 (double insulated) construction regs, so I have to hard wire, it is part of the regs. The things I do and don't need to do with Class2 fits my way of designing (simplicity being king) and sounds better.
I see enormous amounts of waffle on forums about things, but something as basic as the construction regs seem to be ignored.
If you don't understand about the different construction regs then read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appliance_classes
Reid Malenfant
04-06-2011, 18:01
Makes sound sense if you ask me (pardon the pun :eyebrows:). Less connections has got to be better at the end of the day.
I'm also in full agreement about the standard 13A mains plugs. Damn things start running pretty warm if used for any length of time near there current rating.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
04-06-2011, 18:12
Read this to understand the history of plugs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
Especially on how the UK 13 amp plug and ring mains system came about - to save money :rolleyes: a radial system is far better. So pre war we had radial and three round pin plugs, 2amp for lighting, 5 amp for medium power items like hoovers etc and 15 amp for electric fires and and large power items. Far better system and still used in lots of ex British empire countries, and still legal here, but get an electrician to do it for you - he will look at you as though you are daft. That is how deep the brainwash goes. To wire the house with a good radial system costs about 30% more in cabling and time than a ring. This explains history of the ring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
05-06-2011, 09:47
If anyone wants to explore the benefits of 15amp type D (M) plugs this would be a bargain start point. But it should be wired onto a spur preferably (or more spurs if poss looking at the wiring).
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/18-x-15-amp-plugboard-/250830822136#ht_500wt_1156
Covenant
05-06-2011, 16:23
As promised I have spent a couple of days listening to my new mains cable and this afternoon reverted to the old basic one. I have also switched a few times between the two, not instantly as the Croft has a delay when starting.
Cutting to the chase, I can detect a difference, small but noticable. On Mirrorball from Scratch My Back there is a crescendo of orchestral instruments competing with Peter Gabriels voice. The new mains cable seems to separate the instuments better and there is more texture or layering to the overall sound.
So I concede that I have changed my position and do consider mains cabling an area where sound quality improvements can be made. For me (in a modern house with presumably decent wiring) the difference is subtle and I wouldn't go rushing out to buy an expensive cable. YMMV.
As promised I have spent a couple of days listening to my new mains cable and this afternoon reverted to the old basic one. I have also switched a few times between the two, not instantly as the Croft has a delay when starting.
Cutting to the chase, I can detect a difference, small but noticable. On Mirrorball from Scratch My Back there is a crescendo of orchestral instruments competing with Peter Gabriels voice. The new mains cable seems to separate the instuments better and there is more texture or layering to the overall sound.
So I concede that I have changed my position and do consider mains cabling an area where sound quality improvements can be made. For me (in a modern house with presumably decent wiring) the difference is subtle and I wouldn't go rushing out to buy an expensive cable. YMMV.
You don't need to spend a lot to get an improvement of any sort as you have just discovered. The squeezbox can be made to sound better with an up-graded PSU as I found out recently.
Is it any co-incidence that most of europe use the schuko (I use them of course) and only the UK, Cyprus, Singapore and a handful of other countries use fuses in their plugs!
I keep meaning to get my 15 amp round pin extension block out of the garage and wire it back in!
Probably sound even better if you remove the ferrite rings which, in some cases, can remove more than just background hash.
icehockeyboy
06-06-2011, 10:26
You don't need to spend a lot to get an improvement of any sort as you have just discovered. The squeezbox can be made to sound better with an up-graded PSU as I found out recently.
Is it any co-incidence that most of europe use the schuko (I use them of course) and only the UK, Cyprus, Singapore and a handful of other countries use fuses in their plugs!
I keep meaning to get my 15 amp round pin extension block out of the garage and wire it back in!
David, what upgraded psu do you use on your Squeezebox?
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF3830.jpg
ARRGGHH... Very nice, but you've made a bit of a fundamental boo-boo, dude... :doh:
First of all, those DC plugs are utter pish (probably about the worst kind of power connector you can buy). Secondly, the hard-wiring is best done at the T/T end (directly to the PCB), and then at the PSU end, you would fit an XLR plug, which goes into the PSU itself. That's how it sounds best, and also make things most practical.
Who's idea was it to do things the way you have?
Also, your DC cable is very short... Ideally, you want the PSU a good distance away from the T/T. Otherwise, what's the point in removing the internal one (and its associated interference), if you're going to place an off-board PSU so close to your T/T?
My DC cable is about 2.5m long, which is also coincidentally how far away my PSU is from my T/T ;)
Otherwise, I'm sure that your new PSU will be superb! :cool:
Marco.
tweedle dee, tweedle dumb! :ner:
it's a squeezbox psu you plonker! :lol:
the technics psu will have a seperate pbj cable hard wired into the techy and terminated with a top bollock furutech connector to connect it to the PSU xlr input, length according to customer requirements but usually 2 metres or more as you say, the photo is just that, a photo, the dc plug was stuck on for illustrative purposes for a client in new zealand.
Lol - well how would I know, daftee, if you just post a picture without an explanation of what exactly it is!
What am I to rely on for information - divine intervention? :ner:
No worries :)
Marco.
Lol - well how would I know, daftee, if you just post a picture without an explanation of what exactly it is!
What am I to rely on for information - divine intervention? :ner:
No worries :)
Marco.
Post 70....David, what upgraded psu do you use on your Squeezebox? :lolsign:
Yesh, if I'd read post 70, I'd have seen that. I just clicked on the last reply on the thread from the main menu, saw your piccy, and presumed it was a PSU for a Techy :)
Anyway, Squeezeboxes are for puffs! ;)
Marco.
Yesh, if I'd read post 70, I'd have seen that. I just clicked on the last reply on the thread from the main menu, saw your piccy, and presumed it was a PSU for a Techy :)
Anyway, Squeezeboxes are for puffs! ;)
Marco.
You are only jealous, streamed media out-performs cd players, simples!
Aye - I'm dead jealous! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Aye - I'm dead jealous! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Until you have heard music from HD tracks and similar sites streamed properly then you are just playing at it...:lol:
Only messin Marco, the cd will remain for use in the car but now I can see all those Ikea Benny shelving things dis-appearing as cd's get ripped to NAS drives, it does free up masses of space and is so much more convenient using your phone as a remote for your cd collection (not that I would know as not turned the SB on for a few days due to work and other stuff).
Lol, dude, I know. I've got nothing against streaming at all - done well it can be superb. I'm sure that your new PSU will make it even better :)
Marco.
Covenant
06-06-2011, 19:51
Whilst we are diverting off to talk about power supplies-on the left is my Touch linear power supply(John Swenson design) and on the right the Ripple Eater linear supply for my Beresford dac.
Who you calling a puff Marco? :lol:
Oooh, that's a big one! :kiss:
Marco.
icehockeyboy
06-06-2011, 21:23
How many spondoolies do they cost David? :)
How many spondoolies do they cost David? :)
There you go mate.
(http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/streaming-accessories/292-power-supply-for-squeezbox-touch.html)
Too much for me at nigh on three hundred notes. I'm still wondering after a very low noise/ripple supply for the Lentek head amp, which is a battery eater and probably needs 12V instead of the 9V Duracell Ultra PP3's it's usually used with..
Peter Stockwell
08-06-2011, 23:42
To get back on track :
http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/home/mainscables/powerblack-distribution-block
This does make a difference, for me. It's like the Powerigel and can be had with a useful mains conditioner built in. It's replaced my Mark Grant triple hydra array.
The outgoing cables are silver soldered to the incoming cable, and all plug connections are silver soldered.
Sean at Custom-Hifi-Cables says this about his super conditioner :
The Super Conditioner was developed on the basis that I've heard
several conditioners in the past, and they all seemed to 'choke' the
dynamic feel of the music, although they did make notes sound purer.
For me, that was an unacceptable tradeoff, so I designed a conditioner
module that does not clean the mains up in as rigorous a way as these
other commercial units. The end result was a unit that doesn't affect
the pace, rhythm and timing, but still cleans up the sine wave of the
incoming AC voltage, which does give an improvement in the clarity of
notes, particularly at the higher end.
Cable wars are usually caused by the cynics who mistakenly think that they are:
1) Entitled to poke their nose in without being ever invited to. "Is cable A a better than cable B in my system?" isn't a question that demands the usual cynic's flaming and trolling is it?
2) That a series of PRIMITIVE scientific measurements are the be-all and end-all of their stance. I have heard cables with identical LCR characterists that sounded world's apart, so there must be other factors at play.
3) That dragging irrelevent data into the debate like placebo and experimenter expectation gives some sort of "validity" to their argument. Ask any of them how many peer reviewed studies of placebo effect have yielded more than TWO consecutive instances of documented placebo in the same subject and they go strangely silent. TWO instances of proven placebo in just one individual is a very far cry from the many years of countless THOUSANDS of times I have listened to cables.
4) Because the cynics are totally relying on those ineffectual objective measurements and that irrelevant/misguided data, it then means they have an automatic default licence to insult the intelligence of people who can clearly and repeatedly do hear the differences, by saying they are "delusional". It is the inference that I am either delusional or subject to constant placebo that brings out the worst in me because I am being personally attacked by people who naively believe they occupy a more "superior" position than I do.
5) Finally, I have yet to get any cynic to put their money where their mouth is and be subject to a test I devised that is so simple and foolproof, rather than the deplorable ABX routine which is nigh on impossible to maintain to a consistent standard when asked to determine a purely subjective outcome. Not one of them has even come along to a friendly bakeoff when cordially invited, which tells it's own story. I offered one clown a cheque for £1,000 if his two a penny cabling set could see off the cables in my own system in a straight simple listening test. Cheque is still here waiting.
Since this a thread titled myth or fact, it appears appropriate to give the other side's response to the above.
1) I agree, but it is frustrating to have to remain silent as you watch a newbie being advised to buy a cable more expensive than the headphones the own as a means of improving sound (not this forum, at least here the major recommendation at the moment is a really cheap Belkin cable).
I also find that threads asking about how cables can work as makers claim they do also get trolled and flamed. I wish both sides would stop and contribute more constructively. It takes two to tango
2) Primitive in what way? LRC and other cable issues such as skin effect have been known since the 1800s. We have had no new discoveries by cable makers since audiophile cables started to appear. So is there not a very good chance that the other factors at play have nothing to do with the electrical properties of the cable?
3) Because of my answer to 2 above I do not think that placebo is irrelevant. I am not sure what you are meaning by two consecutive instances of proven placebo.
4) I can't respond to that as it is such a sensitive issue of claim and counter claim.
5) That we get different results from sighted, blind and ABX is surely part of the explanation as to how cables sound different?
For the record, I think it is very unfair to blame the cynics, both sides are cable of showing their worst in cable threads.
Since this a thread titled myth or fact, it appears appropriate to give the other side's response to the above.
1) I agree, but it is frustrating to have to remain silent as you watch a newbie being advised to buy a cable more expensive than the headphones the own as a means of improving sound (not this forum, at least here the major recommendation at the moment is a really cheap Belkin cable).
I used to make my living from building and selling cables. I cannot recall driving anyone towards paying more for a cable that either their system or aspirations didn't warrant - least of all any of the products that I sold.
I also find that threads asking about how cables can work as makers claim they do also get trolled and flamed. I wish both sides would stop and contribute more constructively. It takes two to tango
Because of that first hand experience spanning many thousands of cables and their particular attributes, whenever I tried to express those views it has always been met with derision. Past caring in that respect, so I keep my opinions to myself these days.
2) Primitive in what way? LRC and other cable issues such as skin effect have been known since the 1800s. We have had no new discoveries by cable makers since audiophile cables started to appear. So is there not a very good chance that the other factors at play have nothing to do with the electrical properties of the cable?
I disagree. When exactly was it discovered that electrons flow in the OPPOSITE direction to that which was previously accepted as fact? For too many years too we were fed the myth that us humans could only detect 6db differences in sound levels, yet a few years ago during trials by amateurs that we can discern as little as 0.1db. It is that which clashes in my opinion whether or not the human ear can detect these small differences, that LCR parameters on it's own cannot explain - hence the conflicts.
3) Because of my answer to 2 above I do not think that placebo is irrelevant. I am not sure what you are meaning by two consecutive instances of proven placebo.
That is the objective data available. My view is that I have been suffering from this "placebo" for the last 40 years and countless thousands of instances, so I should be logged into the upper echelons of medical research. Little wonder than I give a wry smile when someone says I have been suffering from "placebo". It doesn't wash with me. ;)
4) I can't respond to that as it is such a sensitive issue of claim and counter claim.
5) That we get different results from sighted, blind and ABX is surely part of the explanation as to how cables sound different?
How the heck you can devise an objective test routine when the ONLY possible outcome is a subjective result? :scratch:
The scientific world without relevant data automatically jumps to some very dangerous conclusions which the cynics tend to use as "evidence". I say the moment someone says "Let's do a blind cable test" it is stuffed. I proved that a few years ago at one of my bakeoffs when we did the blind ABX (in fact it was blind ABCX because nobody could find matched kettle leads - the same flaw in the Wigwam test too) when 50 minutes of coshing the same CD tracks, switching the same set of cables in sequence resulted in a mish-mash of results. I announced the test was over, everyone went "Phew, thank goodness" so I then said "Forget all that shit, blind test which of these two cables is best" and we got a 100% accurate result. I also noted the eye/ear interface where someone can watch a fillum, be enthralled with the soundtrack, buys the CD and it sounds shite. Why? Play the fillum again with the sound off the TV and the music playing in the CD player it sounds fine again. I could go on but my fingers are tiring now :)
For the record, I think it is very unfair to blame the cynics, both sides are cable of showing their worst in cable threads.
Both sides are lacking in data that is strictly to the point, so the battle is founght with wet sponges and nobody really gets hurt. I still fail to see why the cynics get worked up into such a froth when none of them have put their hands in their pockets and actually heard or not heard any differences and why that should lead on to pilloring anyone that does?
To stay on topic, what do you think of the Hifi Wigwam ABX test of power cables
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?654-The-Great-Cable-Debate&highlight=blind+test
with four cables, two of which were identical kettle leads and 23 members taking part found the kettle lead (C) being identified as
4 said that the kettle lead was A
6 said that it was B
8 said that it was C
5 said that they didn't know.
And of the participants 8 identified sound differences between the kettle lead and itself.
To stay on topic, what do you think of the Hifi Wigwam ABX test of power cables
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?654-The-Great-Cable-Debate&highlight=blind+test
with four cables, two of which were identical kettle leads and 23 members taking part found the kettle lead (C) being identified as
4 said that the kettle lead was A
6 said that it was B
8 said that it was C
5 said that they didn't know.
And of the participants 8 identified sound differences between the kettle lead and itself.
It never was an ABX test.
There wasn't "two identical kettle leads" because they came from entirely different sources.
Add to that the test organiser threw into the mix his own design of power cable, so we had as the runners and riders:
A commercially made power cable
A kettle lead of unknown origin
A kettle lead of unknown origin
A mains lead of the test organiser's own design.
NOTE: There are differences between apparently identical kettle leads too - I heard them during my bakeoff test
So I fail to comprehend how ANYONE could formulate an objective ABX test from that ragtag and hail it as valid and successful, when I class it as one of the biggest screw-ups ever? :scratch:
Reading though the methodology the kettle leads are described as identical. Where do you get they are not the same?
It is an ABX test as people are asked to identify which cable is which and not just comment on any differnences they say they heard, which would be a blind test,
What is wrong with using a DIY cable as one of the cables?
I disagree it is a rag tag of a test, it is one of the best conducted tests I can find.
What about this power cable ABX test, where 73 out of 149 were correct, so 49% accuracy.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 16:11
To stay on topic, what do you think of the Hifi Wigwam ABX test of power cables
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?654-The-Great-Cable-Debate&highlight=blind+test
with four cables, two of which were identical kettle leads and 23 members taking part found the kettle lead (C) being identified as
4 said that the kettle lead was A
6 said that it was B
8 said that it was C
5 said that they didn't know.
And of the participants 8 identified sound differences between the kettle lead and itself.
Well it is all very simple. I did Hi-Fi Choice speaker blind tests at Paul Messengers gaff for about 10 years. To begin with I was careful and reticent (moi :eyebrows:) until I adjusted to the environment, the system, the acoustic, the people and their agendas, the music. For any this hi-fi malarky to work you have to comfortable as a person and relaxed, and there is nothing like blind testing conditions to put you on the uncomfortable back foot music wise. In the end you find who is bullshitting, who can hear differences and who can't. Paul put up with my bizarre sense of humour and piss taking because he came to respect my ability to hear differences and identify them. I did a few amp and DAC ones as well for Choice, but speakers mostly as Paul became a friend. Good lunches down at the pub in the Thanet swamp too.
The funny thing was to see designers and especially marketing men from the big companies absolutely dumbfounded and make idiots of themselves, some couldn't even identify their own loudspeakers. Why! stress / pressure / unfamiliarity. Quite simply if you want to hear subtle differences do it in conditions you know, in your own system with your own music, all these other situations are just to justify the agenda of the person who is organising it.
If you are in a stress free own system and music situation the only two things that will stop you hearing differences (and they always exist, it is a question of level) is your ability to hear them and you equipments ability to resolve them - nothing more.
Can you link to any of those tests? From what I can find speakers are the easiest part of the hifi chain to pick out with blind tests and so I now concentrate all my spending there.
Sean Olive and the Harman International group with their speaker testing facility have prodced some interesting results. Here we see the difference between speakers reducing when sight is removed.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_w5OVFV2Gsos/Sd5kUGjjhwI/AAAAAAAAAHw/j8vMfgoCNPw/s1600/BlindVsSightedMeanLoudspeakerRatings.png
Taken from this article
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html.
In this series of ABX tests there are some positive ones for amps etc
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_data.htm
but not for the one they did on speaker cables. Indeed there is no ABX pass for any cable.
So that for me is good evidence the likes of speakers do inherantly make a difference, but cables, including power cords do not.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 16:34
From the early 90's to about 2000. I learnt it was largely a waste of time and just a way of giving the reviews some sort of artificial credibility.
ursus262
20-06-2011, 16:41
I hope my post here would be of interest:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=225894#post225894
In what way were they a waste of time? Blind testing has resulted in some pretty expensive kit being humbled by much cheaper stuff. that is great for the consumer.
I disagree with your last sentence in post 92. There could also be no difference as a cause.
I am sorry, I dont buy the better kit/ears claim as it is not backed any evidence, only personal subjective experince, unless you know better.
There have been many blind tests with some very expensive kit and dedicated audiophiles who have failed to identify a difference to evidence my position. For example here with 24,500 euros worth of kit and various ICs and no one could pick out which was which.
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homecinema-fr.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D29781210
Reading though the methodology the kettle leads are described as identical. Where do you get they are not the same?
It is an ABX test as people are asked to identify which cable is which and not just comment on any differnences they say they heard, which would be a blind test,
What is wrong with using a DIY cable as one of the cables?
I disagree it is a rag tag of a test, it is one of the best conducted tests I can find.
What about this power cable ABX test, where 73 out of 149 were correct, so 49% accuracy.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
Simple, I supplied one of the kettle leads, the other was supplied by the test organiser, therefore it COULD NOT be identical.
I cannot believe you have failed to miss the point; 4 cables = A, B, C, D and we have a logical "X" to find, so never in a million years was it an objectively constructed ABX test. If that is your idea of a well conducted test, then I won't be joining in this discussion
If you are going to discuss the subject, then kindly gives us your own perceptions, not conjure up third hand data please.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
20-06-2011, 17:58
I wouldn't bother Effem, it looks like we are dealing with an objectivist troll.
Quite simply if you want to hear subtle differences do it in conditions you know, in your own system with your own music, all these other situations are just to justify the agenda of the person who is organising it.
Perfectly put, Richard. I've little to add to that except that small differences freqeuently take a while to make themselves known. It doesn't mean they're not there, but you have to be attuned to hear them.
Simple, I supplied one of the kettle leads, the other was supplied by the test organiser, therefore it COULD NOT be identical.
I cannot believe you have failed to miss the point; 4 cables = A, B, C, D and we have a logical "X" to find, so never in a million years was it an objectively constructed ABX test. If that is your idea of a well conducted test, then I won't be joining in this discussion
If you are going to discuss the subject, then kindly gives us your own perceptions, not conjure up third hand data please.
Ah right, thanks for that. It does put a different perspective on the test and I will discount it. That you had inside knowledge on a test I clearly do not puts you at an obvious advantage. Why did you not make that clear from the start?
What about the other power cord blind test? I would be interested in a critique of that.
I wouldn't bother Effem, it looks like we are dealing with an objectivist troll.
Nah, I don't think so, Richard.
Ian is simply presenting 'the other side', albeit in a way which neither Frank nor you agree with. I don't either, but Ian's entitled to his opinion, which he's doing his best to present, so let's leave the 'troll' remarks for someone who deserves it.
Although AoS is primarily a subjectivist forum, we do not ban objectivists; in fact we welcome those who are able to present their case politely and with due respect to others with opposing views. I've not seen any evidence so far of Ian being incapable of that, so let's allow him to express his opinion accordingly :)
These days, I generally stay away from cable debates, as they are destined to become nothing other than worthless circular arguments. I know what I can hear when I upgrade cables, and leave it at that. However, I'd just like to address this point:
For the record, I think it is very unfair to blame the cynics, both sides are cable of showing their worst in cable threads.
Ian, there's a big difference between a sceptic and a CYNIC. Scepticism is healthy, cynicism isn't ;)
On that note, carry on chaps, and play nice!
Marco.
Thanks Marco. Cynic was me using Effem's descriptive used in his first post that I replied to of those on my side of the debate.
P.S - I sent a couple of private messages, but they are not showing in my sent items. Do you need a certain amount of posts or something before you can send messages? I may have just hit the wrong button.
Reid Malenfant
20-06-2011, 18:56
Ian, you need to go into UserCP & set it so you keep a copy of sent PMs chap ;) It's not automatic here, it needs to be set manually :cool:
Yes, Ian, but you've already exceeded the necessary level. Any PMs you send now should show up in your sent box accordingly, once you've set the option manually in User CP :)
Marco.
Nah, I don't think so, Richard.
Ian is simply presenting 'the other side', albeit in a way which neither Frank nor you agree with. I don't either, but Ian's entitled to his opinion, which he's doing his best to present, so let's leave the 'troll' remarks for someone who deserves it.
Although AoS is primarily a subjectivist forum, we do not ban objectivists; in fact we welcome those who are able to present their case politely and with due respect to others with opposing views. I've not seen any evidence so far of Ian being incapable of that, so let's allow him to express his opinion accordingly :)
These days, I generally stay away from cable debates, as they are destined to become nothing other than worthless circular arguments. I know what I can hear when I upgrade cables, and leave it at that. However, I'd just like to address this point:
Ian, there's a big difference between a sceptic and a CYNIC. Scepticism is healthy, cynicism isn't ;)
On that note, carry on chaps, and play nice!
Marco.
Marco, you should know me by now that I always meet kindness with kindness and nothing that Ian has written thus far has been otherwise. I would like to find out what Ian's own personal perceptions about the subject are, rather than him linking here, there and everywhere to other people's opinions and data. When one of those links is to the infamous WW cable test which in my opinion was as flawed as a nine bob note, plus I was by open means asked for comments about it, so I responded accordingly.
Ian has in fact sent me a PM about one or two points which I have cleared up for him.
Mark Grant
20-06-2011, 19:41
What about this power cable ABX test, where 73 out of 149 were correct, so 49% accuracy.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
A quick read through it and the first thing I notice is that they are using a mains regeneration device.
From the third paragraph "Quan of Sonic Integrity, whose long-term loan of the ExactPower Power Regulator made it possible to adequately power the Parasounds"
looks like it could be this:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/exact-power-ep15-7-2002.html
http://www.exactpower.com/
Might have been better to connect the equipment direct to the wall sockets to asses power cables, not clean the mains first with a box of electronics.
Cleaning the mains first with a regenerator or whatever is hardly a fair test in my opinion.
Hardly a surprise that a clean no noise sine wave might not be improved on :)
Also all the kit is high end that should have high quality PSU.
A test with budget/mainstream kit in many different houses would have been better.
They could have taken the test system to each persons house as each house has different mains, what works in one house might not work in another etc.
Trying at home and making an opinion based on listening is generally the best way. Any cable can be returned to the reseller for refund.
I am not a scientist, I cannot produce my own data. I am in the legal profession, so instead I have to gather data/evidence and use that to present my case for further examination.
I hope that helps to clear up my method and aims.
My own personal perceptions of power cords are that I have bought various Russ Andrews Yello and Blu cords and extensions (remember them, the Blu was aimed at PCs and Yello for hifi). I tired all combinations with my two Arcam CDPs and a Rega Mira amp and I was sure I could hear a difference with the Arcam that the Yello made it better. But the Yello seemed to make the Rega worse. Adding the Blue extensions on made no difference to anythign I plugged them into, from TV to headphone amp.
I then moved house and plugging everything back in again I mixed the Yello with the Rega stock cable and all was fine till I cleaned and realised my mistake. Sighted I tried various swaps again and this time could not make out any difference. But by then I had discovered forums and was reading the cable debates.
I did wonder if the doubts cast of the effectiveness of the power cords had rubbed off on me. Another house move and that old system went, sadly before I had a chance to do a blind test.
I did still think cable affected SQ, but my doubts were growing. The last cable I bought was the flavour of the month Silver High Breed and I was not convinced at all it sounded different from the Choseal stock cable my DAC came with.
I then decided to try and make my own cable as the SHB was so thick I could not bend it properly in the limited space between my amp and DAC. £75 and a couple of weeks chosing stuff off eBay and learning how to solder from videos off You Tube and I had my first IC.
A blind test found no difference between it and the SHB and the Choseal. I was gusessing from the start which one was which.
Meanwhile a search of blind tests on the internet found all such tests for cables are fails. Myself on Head-fi and Po2001 on Hydrogen Audio now have extensive lists of blind testing.
Then I had a hunt through all the cable maker's websites I could find and none could link from the way they make their cable and measurements they have of cables to changes in sound. I also found a MIT research paper which also failed to find a lnk.
So, from personal experience, blind testing and no link from cable construction to sound difference, I have arrived at my present point of view.
I am a curious bugger who likes to know what is going on!
Marco, you should know me by now that I always meet kindness with kindness and nothing that Ian has written thus far has been otherwise.
Oh absolutely, Frank - and there is no problem here in that respect. I think that Ian is a different breed from your usual dogmatic and belligerent 'objectivist', so let's allow him to have his say, as I know you are doing :)
The whole point of debates like this is that we try and learn from each other!
Marco.
A quick read through it and the first thing I notice is that they are using a mains regeneration device.
From the third paragraph "Quan of Sonic Integrity, whose long-term loan of the ExactPower Power Regulator made it possible to adequately power the Parasounds"
looks like it could be this:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/exact-power-ep15-7-2002.html
http://www.exactpower.com/
Might have been better to connect the equipment direct to the wall sockets to asses power cables, not clean the mains first with a box of electronics.
Cleaning the mains first with a regenerator or whatever is hardly a fair test in my opinion.
Hardly a surprise that a clean no noise sine wave might not be improved on :)
Also all the kit is high end that should have high quality PSU.
A test with budget/mainstream kit in many different houses would have been better.
They could have taken the test system to each persons house as each house has different mains, what works in one house might not work in another etc.
Trying at home and making an opinion based on listening is generally the best way. Any cable can be returned to the reseller for refund.
The test plugged each piece of equipment in with a stock cord and a Valhalla, with all the Valhalla power cords being supplied by Nordost. Are you saying all of those cords were subsequently plugged into the Regulator as it only is used for the power amps. So what about the other kit? EDIT I see now what you mean.
I take your point about what works in one place may not work elsewhere, but a check of Nordost's site and they say nothing about that. If anything I would say they do not agree when they state
THE NORDOST CABLE YOU BUY WILL MEASURE AND PERFORM EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE CABLE WHICH THE REVIEWER RAVED ABOUT!
What about this power cable ABX test, where 73 out of 149 were correct, so 49% accuracy.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
I wonder if anyone here can read the facial expressions and body language of the participants in this photograph below?
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/feature-blind-test-power-cords-participants.jpg
Starting right at the back on the left side I will call him "Number 1" and finishing with the guy on the front row at the right hand end "Number 8", rate each one of them in a range of RELAXED = +5 and STRESSED at -5 so you have a 10 points window how you perceive that person to be. I will post my marking later on.
If any of you know a psychologist or someone capable of interpreting body language and/or facial expressions, ask them for their observations of the participants
Interesting, I would say some definitely look more relaxed that others and the guy on the left front looks like John Malkovich :)
(P.S. and in my room with my system I have experienced a difference in sound when swapping out a mains cable, which to my ears was a pleasurable difference - so I'm happy with that. If it had made no difference it would have gone back, despite what anyone told me)
Reid Malenfant
20-06-2011, 21:15
Interesting, I would say some definitely look more relaxed that others and the guy on the left front looks like John Malkovich :)
:lolsign: Yep, i can see that now.... Being John Malkovich :eyebrows:
Actually none of thm look too comfortable to me as they all look to be invading each others personal space. I guess if they knew each other things may be a tad different, but to me they look like they don't know each other :scratch:
No idea if i'm correct or not...
Give them an armchair each & i'm sure happiness would reign supreme!
Hi Frank,
Who are those guys - members of WW? I don't recognise anyone... Should I? :scratch:
Marco.
If you are going with the argument of stress imparing testing we are at a dead end there where can can just agree to disagree.
My own view is that stress is inherant in the listener. If stress causes an inablity to hear a difference in a cable, then that is another example of how the impact of cables is in the listener and not the cable.
Lets face it, they are not exactly a beauty conntest and may just hate having their photos taken, I know I do! I always look glum, even when I am really happy!
Hi Frank,
Who are those guys - members of WW? I don't recognise anyone... Should I? :scratch:
Marco.
Nobody we know Marco, they are the "guinea pigs" in the infamous Nordost Valhalla cable test. It matters not who they are because they look not dissimilar in facial expression and body language to the poor sods I have put through the mill in similar tests of my own.
If you are going with the argument of stress imparing testing we are at a dead end there where can can just agree to disagree.
My own view is that stress is inherant in the listener. If stress causes an inablity to hear a difference in a cable, then that is another example of how the impact of cables is in the listener and not the cable.
Lets face it, they are not exactly a beauty conntest and may just hate having their photos taken, I know I do! I always look glum, even when I am really happy!
That is how I qualify my statement about ABX testing being a complete waste of time because of the huge variables in the human element of the test, which means that an objectively designed test can only ever mean a subjective outcome in this instance. That isn't rocket science is it? ;)
I am not sure I get the subjective result idea from an ABX test. Just like many tests you either know the answer or you do not. Just like ABX testing in medicine, the medicine is either found to affective or it is not.
Those test subjects are typical of audiophiles, middle aged, male, going by the fact they turn up for a test, do it and have some pretty expensive equipment on which to listen to are above average intelligence and income. They are not going to tolerate bad testing and attempts to fool them.
Many blind tests are arranged through forums, where if a participant felt the test was bad, they would say so and we would know about it. In any case, we accept no test is perfect, but these tests are far from useless.
So all the people who have taken place in blind testing are not fools (there may be a couple but you know what I mean :eyebrows:) and the vast majority of results, for all situations find them unable to pick out differences which they expected from previous sighted testing.
I cannot ignore that and still think it is correct to take such results into consideration.
I am not sure I get the subjective result idea from an ABX test. Just like many tests you either know the answer or you do not. Just like ABX testing in medicine, the medicine is either found to affective or it is not.
Look at the problem logically Ian. You intend to test and scrutinise what are wholly subjective issues, laden from top to bottom with an infinite number of variables. You then try to employ a test that has a yes/no black/white regime which makes no allowances for any variables beyond a small percentage drift. ABX is used in medicine because those yes/no black/white parameters are the ones you are seeking from the very outset, so an objective test regime is appropriate and stands a fair chance (in confidence terms) of succeeding and giving a meaningful result. I cannot make it any plainer than that and promulgating the ABX test as the definitive objective answer to a highly variable subjective outcome is totally illogical to me.
Those test subjects are typical of audiophiles, middle aged, male, going by the fact they turn up for a test, do it and have some pretty expensive equipment on which to listen to are above average intelligence and income. They are not going to tolerate bad testing and attempts to fool them.
By gum there is a whole heap of supposition going on there. What if I told you that one of the subject groups for my own blind tests consisted of around 10 teenage girls who did a sterling job of picking out which cable sounded better?
Many blind tests are arranged through forums, where if a participant felt the test was bad, they would say so and we would know about it. In any case, we accept no test is perfect, but these tests are far from useless.
More supposition.
It means to acquire a set of statistics that are interpreted more ways than I have hairs on my head. I thought objective tests were supposed to be definitive?
So all the people who have taken place in blind testing are not fools (there may be a couple but you know what I mean :eyebrows:) and the vast majority of results, for all situations find them unable to pick out differences which they expected from previous sighted testing.
I cannot ignore that and still think it is correct to take such results into consideration.
But which ferkin test regime were they using . . . . . . . ?
Give me strength :doh:
Hopefully to clarify my points re ABX and blind testing.
I say ABX is objective, as all it tests is whether a difference can be heard or not. Subjectivity only comes into the issue with sound quality, which ABX is not measuring. ABX does not ask which one sounds better, it asks can you hear which one is which?
Blind testing, where participants are asked instead for their impressions of what they are listening to, is subjective. The What Hifi and Hifi Choice tests are like that. There have been tests where amps are played off against each other with the prefered one voted through till a winner appears. If the result is the cheapest product on test, that is as informative as if the most expensive has won.
My suppositions are based on my research and the vast majority of blind tesing I have found so far has invloved middle aged males and have been through forums, not teenage girls!
Regarding test regimes, ABX has found no differences. Blind has found some differences, but not as much as sighted and where cheap can beat expensive. Sighted is where the biggest differences can be found. It is the different results that the different tests yield I think is evidence that the difference is not in the cable it is in the listener.
My suppositions are based on my research and the vast majority of blind tesing I have found so far has invloved middle aged males and have been through forums, not teenage girls!
Regarding test regimes, ABX has found no differences. Blind has found some differences, but not as much as sighted and where cheap can beat expensive. Sighted is where the biggest differences can be found. It is the different results that the different tests yield I think is evidence that the difference is not in the cable it is in the listener.
Well if the vast majority of these blind tests have had participants which are middle aged males who frequent forums, then your ABX test sample group is already holed well below the waterline before they even start :ner:
The entire purpose of using a group of nubile young ladies was to completely take out of the equation the fact that they were to be "listening out for differences" or indeed that they were subject to "test" conditions, hence no stress, no anxiety, no expectations of any sort. Pretty much the same applies to the spouses of these aforesaid middle aged audiophools who in general loathe or ignore their husband's pecadillios about noisy boxes in the home and I say their comments like "Oooh that sounds nice/better/what have you" UNPROMPTED, are equally valid and validated that a change has taken place. If you reject that sort of anecdotal evidence then there is no further point in discussing the matter further with you.
Finally then, if you now assert that the evidence of differences is not in the cable itself, BUT IN THE LISTENER, then logic dictates that objectivity has no place in the discussion because the varibles between individuals are virtually infinite so you would have to ABX test everyone who has had even the remotest connection with cable swapping to get a meaningful result through objective testing. Personally speaking I think you are using the objectivity ticket as a cop-out for your inability to be unbiased enough to accept that cable differences do exist, but you as an individual are not attuned to what you are supposed to be listening out for in the first place.
So, I will give you a very simple test routine that is totally blind in implementation and the only instrument you are allowed to use is your ears. If you ever go to a hi-fi show, walk along the corridors without entering a single room. I want you to listen only for the sound of the music and in particular if the bass is booming with overhang on every note. Make a note of which rooms demonstrate this trait and which that don't. when you have reached the end of the corridor, turn around and go into the room to see/ask if aftermarket power cords or kettle leads are being used. If you cannot get to a show, then book an appointment with a dealer when they are not busy and ask them to change between a kettle lead and an aftermarket power cord of decent quality (Not Russ Andrews though please) and you should NOT BE IN THE ROOM, again, listening out in particular to the characteristics of the bass notes in isolation. There is a good reason why a power cord swap does this but I don't have the time or the inclination to do all that unless and until I see some real evidence of your "open mindedness" because so far I have seen very little.
If you find that STILL you can detect no differences after either one of those simple tests, the objective or subjective nature of cables matters not to you because your ear/brain isn't attuned at all to subtle yet distinct changes, so take up crochet instead.
If you find that STILL you can detect no differences after either one of those simple tests, the objective or subjective nature of cables matters not to you because your ear/brain isn't attuned at all to subtle yet distinct changes, so take up crochet instead.
Priceless!
:lolsign:
Marco.
Well if the vast majority of these blind tests have had participants which are middle aged males who frequent forums, then your ABX test sample group is already holed well below the waterline before they even start :ner:
The entire purpose of using a group of nubile young ladies was to completely take out of the equation the fact that they were to be "listening out for differences" or indeed that they were subject to "test" conditions, hence no stress, no anxiety, no expectations of any sort. Pretty much the same applies to the spouses of these aforesaid middle aged audiophools who in general loathe or ignore their husband's pecadillios about noisy boxes in the home and I say their comments like "Oooh that sounds nice/better/what have you" UNPROMPTED, are equally valid and validated that a change has taken place. If you reject that sort of anecdotal evidence then there is no further point in discussing the matter further with you.
Finally then, if you now assert that the evidence of differences is not in the cable itself, BUT IN THE LISTENER, then logic dictates that objectivity has no place in the discussion because the varibles between individuals are virtually infinite so you would have to ABX test everyone who has had even the remotest connection with cable swapping to get a meaningful result through objective testing. Personally speaking I think you are using the objectivity ticket as a cop-out for your inability to be unbiased enough to accept that cable differences do exist, but you as an individual are not attuned to what you are supposed to be listening out for in the first place.
So, I will give you a very simple test routine that is totally blind in implementation and the only instrument you are allowed to use is your ears. If you ever go to a hi-fi show, walk along the corridors without entering a single room. I want you to listen only for the sound of the music and in particular if the bass is booming with overhang on every note. Make a note of which rooms demonstrate this trait and which that don't. when you have reached the end of the corridor, turn around and go into the room to see/ask if aftermarket power cords or kettle leads are being used. If you cannot get to a show, then book an appointment with a dealer when they are not busy and ask them to change between a kettle lead and an aftermarket power cord of decent quality (Not Russ Andrews though please) and you should NOT BE IN THE ROOM, again, listening out in particular to the characteristics of the bass notes in isolation. There is a good reason why a power cord swap does this but I don't have the time or the inclination to do all that unless and until I see some real evidence of your "open mindedness" because so far I have seen very little.
If you find that STILL you can detect no differences after either one of those simple tests, the objective or subjective nature of cables matters not to you because your ear/brain isn't attuned at all to subtle yet distinct changes, so take up crochet instead.
It is not my ABX sample group, it is what is out there that I can find. It does not seem that bad a sample group as it is very refective of your average audiophile.
I do not reject anecdotal evidence, I look at all evidence. If you want to discuss the validity of anecdotal evidence fine. But don't accuse me of rejecting something not even mention yet.
I don't think you do need to test everyone, just a reasonable sample of people, which from that sample so far has yielded consistent results. As I have said before, I am basing what I say on the knowledge we have so far. If such changes I will review and vary my thoughts as necessary.
Again to make it absolutely clear
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY CABLES SOUND. I AM NOT DISPUTING THAT. I AM ASKING WHERE DO THOSE DIFFERENCES COME FROM FROM.
I don't know what I can do to convince you I am open minded other than to point out I have changed my mind before and will do so again. I have also listened to and taken on board your responses, such as adding in your crticism of the WAM test to the thread on Head-Fi.
Again to make it absolutely clear
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY CABLES SOUND. I AM NOT DISPUTING THAT. I AM ASKING WHERE DO THOSE DIFFERENCES COME FROM FROM.
I don't know what I can do to convince you I am open minded other than to point out I have changed my mind before and will do so again. I have also listened to and taken on board your responses, such as adding in your crticism of the WAM test to the thread on Head-Fi.
Well then we will do the easy bit Ian - metallurgy.
I will make the assertion now that each and every metal element has it's own unique sonic signature when it is bunged into a cable construction. I have made cables from copper, silver, aluminium, gold, platinum, steel and various alloys thereof, all have sounded different. Solid cores and stranded cores sound different to each other. With solid cores, the greater the CSA then to me the more it seems to attenuate or roll off the highest upper frequencies. A cable made from pure aluminium is very much treble biased, yet pair it with another metal like copper or gold and the cable then exhibits a counter-action of the worst aspects of both cables and combines the best attributes.
When you analyse the resistance readings of these various metals then they should be a horror story in sound transmission terms but that simply is not true. Silver is better at electrical conduction than copper is (by some 8%) but the wise ones say it should make one iota of difference and scoffed at the very idea. I beg to differ. Not only that, but silver generates much less noise than a copper cable. What? Yep, true. Take a sensitive amplifier (valves will do) and connect a copper cable to the mains socket and crank up the gain with no input. Can you hear hiss? Now connect a pure silver mains cord and what has happened to that hiss? "Bollox" say the cynics, but evidence to support that assertion also came from an unexpected source.
Around 7 years ago I happened upon an article in a magazine intended for the power generation and distribution industry. It was discussing the increasing number of brown outs in the USA because the high voltage transmission lines were not coping in heavily populated areas. The article said they were replacing the current aluminium and steel cabling with copper and . . . . . . pure silver cored cables (6% alloy actually), because of the higher current capabilities and the lower noise thresholds in the transmission lines which also happens to reduce the noise on data carried along the distribution network.
I heard this profound effect at a hi-fi dealership I was visiting with my cables and he tried a copper cable first and then a pure silver power cord on a Consonance valve integrated and some horn speakers. It was him that noticed a not insignificant reduction in background hiss. Are the LCR parameters responsible for that phenomena? Methinks not.
From your above metalurgy is then something that could well be a cause. Have you any further studies or recommended reading?
I would like to find out more as reading through cable maker websites and deatils on cable construction, they do often refer to copper vs silver, but all apparently improve sound, which cannot really be the case.
From your above metalurgy is then something that could well be a cause. Have you any further studies or recommended reading?
I would like to find out more as reading through cable maker websites and deatils on cable construction, they do often refer to copper vs silver, but all apparently improve sound, which cannot really be the case.
The one and only known fact is that silver is 8% more conductive than copper. In theory then a silver cable should sound LOUDER than a copper cable by . . . . . . errrrm, 8%, which I have never found to be the case in reality.
I would not bother scanning cable maker's websites for the reason(s) why a silver cable "sounds better than a copper cable" because if the scientific world hasn't got a clue, then a snake oil salesman stands even less chance of knowing.
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 19:40
The one and only known fact is that silver is 8% more conductive than copper. In theory then a silver cable should sound LOUDER than a copper cable by . . . . . . errrrm, 8%, which I have never found to be the case in reality.
No it won't simply because of the cable impedance & the impedance of what it's driving & the source impedance. If you had any change in volume i'd be totally astonished :eyebrows:
Look at it like this, a cable with a DC resistance of say 0.3 ohm won't sound less loud than a silver one of 0.27 ohm as they are both driven from a 100 ohm or so source & feed at least 10Kohm. The cable DC resistance & AC impedance is effectively out of the loop as it's so low ;)
No it won't simply because of the cable impedance & the impedance of what it's driving & the source impedance. If you had any change in volume i'd be totally astonished :eyebrows:
Look at it like this, a cable with a DC resistance of say 0.3 ohm won't sound less loud than a silver one of 0.27 ohm as they are both driven from a 100 ohm or so source & feed at least 10Kohm. The cable DC resistance & AC impedance is effectively out of the loop as it's so low ;)
How come you know that simple fact Mark, while the dumb-ass cynics don't :lol:
I never have heard a silver cable sound "louder" than a copper cable - ever.
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 19:50
How come you know that simple fact Mark, while the dumb-ass cynics don't :lol:
It came to me in a dream :eyebrows:
It came to me in a dream :eyebrows:
Can't you hear the difference 0.000026 dB makes? :scratch:
Reid Malenfant
22-06-2011, 20:10
Wet or dry?
Marco.
:lolsign: Dry i'm assuming ;)
Can't you hear the difference 0.000026 dB makes? :scratch:
Bat ears Barry, no, & i'm damn sure you couldn't either chap :) 1Db, maybe a tad less in the midrange where our ears are most sensitive - yes. But even 100 time lower i just don't think so ;)
Back to the madness...
:lolsign: Dry i'm assuming ;)
Bat ears Barry, no, & i'm damn sure you couldn't either chap :) 1Db, maybe a tad less in the midrange where our ears are most sensitive - yes. But even 100 time lower i just don't think so ;)
Back to the madness...
Haha - just supporting your earlier post and putting it into perspective. ;)
Serious question. No really!
Some times I have felt one cable sounds a bit louder than another. That was certainly the case with an attenuated IC I bought.
If you have a crap volume pot which maybe goes from too quiet to too loud too quickly, adding in a cable that makes the sound slightly louder could well improve sound, just by making it a bit louder.
I know of one cable maker who had reports of this happening and took measurements and could find no answer. But could the way a cable is made )and not just addding attenuation such as the IC I had) affect volume, hence an apparent change in SQ?
An apt thread. I was considering getting one of these two for the Burson 160D (from scoobs).
Wireworld Stratus 5 (seems to get rave reviews all over the place)
http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1129{9}40{10}133
Our very own MG
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_18&products_id=69
Any ideas? :¬)
Again to make it absolutely clear
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN THE WAY CABLES SOUND. I AM NOT DISPUTING THAT. I AM ASKING WHERE DO THOSE DIFFERENCES COME FROM FROM.
That's the 64K$ question, especially with mains leads. After all, the only thing the mains lead does is ferry power to the power supply -- and that's a whole bunch of components that transform AC into DC. A quality power supply will produce absolutely clean DC - I mean a ramrod straight line on the old 'scope. No trace of any AC.
My problem with mains cable vendors is that many spout absolute baloney, like the lads from PS Audio who claim that having specific sub-cables for low, mid and high (audio!) frequencies in a power lead will have an effect on the sound.
http://www.psaudio.com/uploads/images/products/AC10-web.jpg
To anyone with a modicum of knowledge of electricty, this is clearly total nonsense. First, the strands are in parallel; second, how could separate strands in the power lead affect the DC put out by the supply in such a way that the audio frequencies are less distorted (as if the electrons remember they've passed to a strand "adapted to the frequency the electron is carrying" [this is heavily tongue-in-cheek]. We know how electricity works and clearly, this is first-grade snake-oil.
What to think about companies like PS Audio? What to think about a publication (like HiFi.nl) that waffles egregiously:
They (PS Audio) have discovered that one can indeed distinguish three frequency groups in a power cable. Bass, midrange and high, like at the other side of a stereo system. By allocating each of these groups its own wire size in the cable, the desired tonal balance can be achieved. However, the study went further and PS Audio found that the different sizes still left something to be desired. For bass, the selected wire size was no problem. One problem was the so important midrange. There was still much to be gained. But how? A thicker wire is fine for low frequency signals and a thin wire is suitable for high frequencies. Logically, one would select an in-between thickness for the midrange. But that's (apparently) not correct. For the midrange more surface area is needed to properly use the skin effect. More surface with a round wire yields a thicker wire and that is not the intention.
...
Again, an amplifier is nothing but a system that modulates the incoming current with a musical signal...
From: PS Audio Powercables (http://www.hifi.nl/recensies_pagina3/4372/PS-Audio-Powercables-Kabel-in-balans.html) Translated by Google.
How wrong can one be?
If something sounds better, fine. If I don't hear that difference, fine (as a life-long tinnitus sufferer, I have no illusions about my hearing). But please let us not introduce magic (or nice-sounding, impressive nonsense) in our discourse. It's OK not to know how something works, and we don't need pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo to convince ourselves we're entitled to hear a difference.
Warmly,
Stefaan
Kimber use variable strand sizes in their power cables and they work very well. Now, in their case, the cables were developed as speaker cable first and foremost, for which duty they are excellent. Perhaps as a speaker cable the varistrands fulfil their task of providing more surface area for the higher frequencies. As a power cable, I believe it's their RFI reduction properties that makes them so successful.
Mark Grant
23-06-2011, 07:20
An apt thread. I was considering getting one of these two for the Burson 160D (from scoobs).
Wireworld Stratus 5 (seems to get rave reviews all over the place)
http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1129{9}40{10}133
Our very own MG
http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_18&products_id=69
Any ideas? :¬)
Maybe try both and see which you like best :)
Results vary with different systems and different houses, so what one person says is great might not do it for you.
I have a 30 days returns policy and hardly anyone ever returns anything, much better for the customer than the usual 7 days most websites offer which is hardly long enough to decide if something is a keeper or not.
As a power cable, I believe it's their RFI reduction properties that makes them so successful.
That is the only way a mains cable can affect the sound - by reducing either cable-borne interference or through screening external RFI.
That is the only way a mains cable can affect the sound
Not entirely - there is always straightforward impedance, mainly a result of sheer cross-sectional area of conductor.
Not entirely - there is always straightforward impedance, mainly a result of sheer cross-sectional area of conductor.
Unless the conductors are very large (say 30A rating, 10mm^2) the loop resistance of the cable will be of the same order as the source impedance of your mains supply (in my case < 0.25 Ohm, measured). I would imagine the loop resistance of a typical mains lead would be no greater, so 'degrading' the source impedance to < 0.5 Ohm; still sufficiently low to dampen out cable-bourne interference.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 15:08
Well as an arch subjectivist I am afraid I am neutral on mains cables as long as they are not cheap dross. Though I have heard better cables they are bloody expensive. When I did mains cable tests for 1st generation statement amps I found an armoured cable that sounded better, but put that down to the armour acting as a screen and also adding rigidity.
Anyway my reason is that the horrible IEC connectors have more sonic effect than the cable. So for me the solution is hard wiring a good cable and forgetting about it.
Hi Barry,
That is the only way a mains cable can affect the sound - by reducing either cable-borne interference or through screening external RFI.
You'll probably hate this (and file it under 'pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo'), but it's what the new mains leads I'm using, from Mains Cables R Us, are made of (Furukawa Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast Copper), and after having assessed and scrutinised their sonic effect at length for the last few months, bloody hell are they good! :eek: Read about it here:
http://aphroditecu29.com/headphone/FurutechCableScience.aspx
And the mains leads themselves: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-cables-/281-mains-cables-r-us-no1-mains-lead.html
Marco.
aquapiranha
23-06-2011, 15:21
My problem with mains cable vendors is that many spout absolute baloney, like the lads from PS Audio who claim that having specific sub-cables for low, mid and high (audio!) frequencies in a power lead will have an effect on the sound.
http://www.psaudio.com/uploads/images/products/AC10-web.jpg
To anyone with a modicum of knowledge of electricty, this is clearly total nonsense. First, the strands are in parallel; second, how could separate strands in the power lead affect the DC put out by the supply in such a way that the audio frequencies are less distorted (as if the electrons remember they've passed to a strand "adapted to the frequency the electron is carrying" [this is heavily tongue-in-cheek]. We know how electricity works and clearly, this is first-grade snake-oil.
What to think about companies like PS Audio? What to think about a publication (like HiFi.nl) that waffles egregiously:
Stefaan
I have to say that is basically where I am at the moment. while I (some may think otherwise of me) have not disputed there may be an effect, what we have from some of the manufacturers is complete nonsense dressed as fact. It would be better all round i think that if rather than try to blind people with made up rubbish the people making / selling the cables gave the buying public the courtesy of letting use their own methods to decide if they do make an improvement or not. There are too many companies about, and in fact a good few dealers too, who take their customers for idiots and it doesn't bode well for anybody IMO.
Anyway my reason is that the horrible IEC connectors have more sonic effect than the cable. So for me the solution is hard wiring a good cable and forgetting about it.
I do agree, but the problem with hard-wiring is that once you've hard-wired in place whatever cable you've decided to use, it's way too much of a ball-ache taking it out to try something else that you've discovered could be better, and which could markedly improve the performance of the equipment concerned...
Also, the Furutech IEC plugs I use, through their unique design, eliminate most of the detrimental sonic effect of having IECs in the first place :)
I guess the ideal thing to do, from a users point of view, would be to work with IECs whilst experimenting with different mains cables, until you've finally decided which ones are your favourite, then hard-wire those in position, crossing it off as 'job done'. And then leave well alone and enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 15:37
I do agree, but the problem with hard-wiring is that once you've hard-wired in place whatever cable you've decided to use, it's way too much of a ball-ache taking it out to try something else, that you've discovered could be better, and which could markedly improve the performance of the equipment concerned...
Also, the Furutech IEC plugs I use, through their unique design, eliminate most of the detrimental sonic effect of having IECs in the first place :)
I guess the ideal thing to do, from a users point of view, would be to work with IECs whilst experimenting with different mains cables, until you've finally decided which ones are your favourite, then hard-wire those in position, and cross it off as 'job done'. Then leave well alone and enjoy the music! :cool:
Marco.
There is only one thing better than the best component you can buy, and that is no component.
Yes, in general I agree with that statement, but regarding what we're currently discussing, you still have to take into consideration the sonic effect of the cable itself, excluding if there are any IECs in the equation.
I would contend that a good piece of equipment, connected to the mains via a high-quality IEC socket (and there are better than bog standard ones available, from the likes of Furutech and Oyaide, which use high-quality rhodium over solid-copper connections) and a truly top-notch power lead, fitted with an equally top-notch IEC plug (such as the Furutech FI-50), would sonically outperform the same piece of equipment connected to the mains via merely a 'good quality' power lead, hard-wired to equipment - albeit at some cost.
But if you truly want the best.............. And you still retain the convenience of being able to plug and unplug cables!
Maybe that's one to test at a bake-off sometime? ;)
Marco.
Kimber use variable strand sizes in their power cables and they work very well. Now, in their case, the cables were developed as speaker cable first and foremost, for which duty they are excellent. Perhaps as a speaker cable the varistrands fulfil their task of providing more surface area for the higher frequencies. As a power cable, I believe it's their RFI reduction properties that makes them so successful.
Hi Martin. I take it you know about this
http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx
and that RA cannot advertise reduced RFI as improving sound as they cannot establish a link.
It is that missing link which gets us onjectivists a bit puzzled :scratch:
I have to say that is basically where I am at the moment. while I (some may think otherwise of me) have not disputed there may be an effect, what we have from some of the manufacturers is complete nonsense dressed as fact. It would be better all round i think that if rather than try to blind people with made up rubbish the people making / selling the cables gave the buying public the courtesy of letting use their own methods to decide if they do make an improvement or not. There are too many companies about, and in fact a good few dealers too, who take their customers for idiots and it doesn't bode well for anybody IMO.
:thumbsup:
And this http://aphroditecu29.com/headphone/FurutechCableScience.aspx is priceless. :lol:
I have never yet known a mains cable to reduce any RFI, either induced or mains borne, so I say that is another myth perpetuated by Russ Andrews and all that followed in the industry. I cannot find any evidence at all about RFI rejection or indeed attenuation by any stock mains cable without added filtration components.
The perceived sonic differences are attributable to the total loop resistance between the nearest national grid transformer and the transformer input to your components. Yes the total loop resistance and circuit impedance is not of a great magnitude, but any reduction in that total circuit is audible through your hi-fi system.
Furukawa Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast Copper
If I was to replace the six power cables I use from my Powerplant PPP with these, it would cost me over 4 grand :eek:
And you call me mad for having Kimbers :)
However, I *love* the direct cable entry style plugs which would greatly ease the problem of cables trying to lift the back of the PPP off the shelf that I have. Are these plugs available separately?
Hi Martin. I take it you know about this
http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/1/Russ-Andrews-Accessories-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49597.aspx
Yes I do. However, those cables do enhance the sound of my system and it's still the most promising mechanism for improvement that I can think of, until a better theory comes forward ;)
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 20:32
Yes, in general I agree with that statement, but regarding what we're currently discussing, you still have to take into consideration the sonic effect of the cable itself, excluding if there are any IECs in the equation.
I would contend that a good piece of equipment, connected to the mains via a high-quality IEC socket (and there are better than bog standard ones available, from the likes of Furutech and Oyaide, which use high-quality rhodium over solid-copper connections) and a truly top-notch power lead, fitted with an equally top-notch IEC plug (such as the Furutech FI-50), would sonically outperform the same piece of equipment connected to the mains via merely a 'good quality' power lead, hard-wired to equipment - albeit at some cost.
But if you truly want the best.............. And you still retain the convenience of being able to plug and unplug cables!
Maybe that's one to test at a bake-off sometime? ;)
Marco.
Its simple the IEC or lack of it makes more difference than changing the cable, so if faced with the choice the logic is to select the best cable you know at the present and hard wire it as no plugged better cable will make as much improvement as the hardwire.
If I was to replace the six power cables I use from my Powerplant PPP with these, it would cost me over 4 grand :eek:
And you call me mad for having Kimbers :)
Lol... You've got to hear them though, Martin. Honestly, mate, one listen and your credit card will be out faster than you can say "Furukawa Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast Copper"!! :eyebrows:
Shall I bring some with me next time I come down?
However, I *love* the direct cable entry style plugs which would greatly ease the problem of cables trying to lift the back of the PPP off the shelf that I have. Are these plugs available separately?
I believe so - best speak to David.
Marco.
Mark Grant
23-06-2011, 21:11
However, I *love* the direct cable entry style plugs which would greatly ease the problem of cables trying to lift the back of the PPP off the shelf that I have. Are these plugs available separately?
The straight version is Furutech FI-1363 and is available in Gold or Rhodium, lots of websites sell them :) ( the angled version has L in the part number)
google shopping results.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=furutech+fi-1363&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=DKoDTpD-DMqKhQep3eHkDQ#q=furutech+fi-1363&hl=en&sa=X&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&tbs=p_ord:p&tbm=shop&prmd=ivns&ei=jKoDTuHmAZHE8QPl6_GYDw&ved=0CAoQuw0oAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e2119ef6c664d726&biw=1315&bih=969
-
Reid Malenfant
23-06-2011, 21:23
Lol... You've got to hear them though, Martin. Honestly, mate, one listen and your credit card will be out faster than you can say "Furukawa Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast Copper"!! :eyebrows:
For £4000 i'd expect a much better increase in quality than a few mains cables :lol:
Jeez, a pair of these (http://www.speakerworld.nl/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=491&category_id=75&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=109), along with a pair of these (http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BEHEP4000&product=Behringer_EP4000_Power_Amplifier) & you have just broke the £1500 barrier...
Get someone who knows what they are doing to build you some enclosures & i know where you are going to get the best SPPV :lolsign: You'd get it all in for less than £3000... You wouldn't just be improving what your standard speakers could do either. Hell, i'd want gold eggs for 4K if you are just talking about improving what your own speakers can do ffs :eyebrows:
Good grief :mental:
I have never yet known a mains cable to reduce any RFI, either induced or mains borne, so I say that is another myth perpetuated by Russ Andrews and all that followed in the industry. I cannot find any evidence at all about RFI rejection or indeed attenuation by any stock mains cable without added filtration components.
The perceived sonic differences are attributable to the total loop resistance between the nearest national grid transformer and the transformer input to your components. Yes the total loop resistance and circuit impedance is not of a great magnitude, but any reduction in that total circuit is audible through your hi-fi system.
I’m not perpetuating any myths (due to Russ Andrews or otherwise). Some mains cables can and do reduce RFI, but they are not your common or garden three-core cables. They either have an overall braided screen (that is they are screened three core cables) or have an outer cladding that is loaded with a ferrite dust. The latter doing the same thing as fitting external ferrite clamps around conventional mains cables.
Are you able to hear the difference between a 1 metre mains cable and a 1.5m length cable of the same construction?
You'll probably hate this (and file it under 'pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo'), but it's what the new mains leads I'm using, from Mains Cables R Us, are made of (Furukawa Ultra Pure Ohno Continuous Cast Copper), and after having assessed and scrutinised their sonic effect at length for the last few months, bloody hell are they good! Read about it here:
http://aphroditecu29.com/headphone/F...leScience.aspx
And the mains leads themselves: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/m...ains-lead.html
Given my stance on audio signal interconnects, it might surprise you to know (as well as Frank and Ian) that I think mains cables can (under some conditions) have a greater effect on the performance of an audio system than that of signal interconnects.
It all down to the insidious effect RFI and switching artefacts (due to SMPS), picked up and conducted through the mains wiring, can have on audio equipment; unless the latter has a very well designed power supply.
It is for that reason that I sometimes assemble my own power leads. I agree with Ian on the horrible IEC connector. 16A ? - my arse! They are to my mind as poorly designed and sadly just as ubiquitous as the RCA phono connector. I prefer the (now outlawed) Cannon “XLR style” mains connector.
The Furutech ‘blurb’ is exactly the sort of ‘technobabble’ that I detest. It looks impressive and knowledgeable and gives the impression that the manufacturer knows what he is talking about. And it is all scientifically correct – it’s just that it’s all almost completely irrelevant at audio frequencies. If you want more of the same just go to the Cardas website!
I won’t dispute you can hear the difference, nor would I charge you with mendacity. How can I? I don’t have your ears, nor have I heard them (yet) in your system. But at £600 a pop! – now perhaps you can see why I prefer to make my own if needed.
Regards
For £4000 i'd expect a much better increase in quality than a few mains cables...
Jeez, a pair of these (http://www.speakerworld.nl/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=491&category_id=75&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=109), along with a pair of these (http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BEHEP4000&product=Behringer_EP4000_Power_Amplifier) & you have just broke the £1500 barrier...
Lol! Mark, well, first of all, I don't need six mains leads, like Martin does - I only need five, so I can spend the change on cutesy little party frocks instead....! :eyebrows: :booty:
Secondly, why on earth would I want to change my wonderful vintage Tannoy DCs for those modern monstrosities you linked to, and my beautiful bespoke, hand-built Copper valve amp, for that vulgar transistor 'disco' tat?? :lol: ;)
In all seriousness though, the 'Ultimate' mains leads of David's have made a very significant sonic improvement in my system, the type of which I wouldn't get from a box or speaker upgrade.
Remember that my SPPV philosophy doesn't necessarily mean cheap - it's about achieving the highest sound-per-pound value possible, by whatever means necessary.
And when it comes to cables, that could mean spending £255 to get it right (as with each of my Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects, fitted with WBT 0110Ags), £135 on my Supra digital coax cable (fitted with WBT 0110Ags), or £695 on each of my 'Ultimate' mains leads - whatever it takes to get the job done!
The Ultimates, for example, outperform £2500 Nordost Valhallas!! :eek:
There's about £5.5k worth of cables in total in my system, which in a system with around £20k worth of components, I guess is a reasonable and justified level of expenditure.
The important thing is that I know that each and every one of the cables I use, regardless of what they cost, punches sonically way above its weight, in terms of what it costs, and that for me is what it's all about :cool:
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
23-06-2011, 22:38
It is for that reason that I sometimes assemble my own power leads. I agree with Ian on the horrible IEC connector. 16A ? - my arse! They are to my mind as poorly designed and sadly just as ubiquitous as the RCA phono connector. I prefer the (now outlawed) Cannon “XLR style” mains connector.
The best ones are the old style Bulgins, but even then you are better off without them.
The best ones are the old style Bulgins, but even then you are better off without them.
Ah yes! I'd forgotten about them, even though I have a dozen or so samples kicking around somewhere.
Thinking about it, they are used for the mains connection on my (electrostatic) speakers. :doh:
Given my stance on audio signal interconnects, it might surprise you to know (as well as Frank and Ian) that I think mains cables can (under some conditions) have a greater effect on the performance of an audio system than that of signal interconnects.
I agree, Barry. I have always viewed the mains supply as the true 'source' in any system.
People often talk about having a 'source first' approach to system-building, and I agree, but I'm not just talking about your CD player, turntable or music server: 'source first', to me, means getting the mains supply - the 'fuel' for your system right first before anything else!
That's why I have gone to great lengths optimising that aspect of my system set-up, way before I even get to the boxes, signal cables and speakers. After all, what you're hearing at the end of the chain, through your speakers, is essentially just modulated mains.....
It all down to the insidious effect RFI and switching artefacts (due to SMPS), picked up and conducted through the mains wiring, can have on audio equipment; unless the latter has a very well designed power supply.
That's definitely part of it, but I think there's more to it than just that.
It is for that reason that I sometimes assemble my own power leads. I agree with Ian on the horrible IEC connector. 16A ? - my arse!
I think you mean, Richard, do you not - or does Ian also hate IECs?
The Furutech ‘blurb’ is exactly the sort of ‘technobabble’ that I detest. It looks impressive and knowledgeable and gives the impression that the manufacturer knows what he is talking about. And it is all scientifically correct – it’s just that it’s all almost completely irrelevant at audio frequencies. If you want more of the same just go to the Cardas website!
Lol! I thought you'd say that. Thing is, it means bugger all to me. I didn't even read any of that bollocks before I bought the Ultimate mains leads from David. He sent me some to try, and I simply used my ears, and the testing process you praised me for earlier. Now you know me, and what my system is like, and so know that I'll only buy something if it's genuinely good.
Well trust me these mains leads are WAY better than good! You can judge for yourself next time you're up. We'll even do a little blind test, if you like ;)
I won’t dispute you can hear the difference, nor would I charge you with mendacity. How can I? I don’t have your ears, nor have I heard them (yet) in your system. But at £600 a pop! – now perhaps you can see why I prefer to make my own if needed.
Indeed, but you also know that I'm not the type to bullshit - I simply let the performance of my system, and how it reproduces music, speak for itself... That's the best advert there is for if the money has been well spent on cables or not, n'est-ce pas?
And I demonstrate this to people at Scalford Hall, and to even greater effect at home.
Why not bring your home-made jobbies up next time you visit, and we'll compare them to the Ultimates? That should provide some perspective on the matter :cool:
Marco.
Yes - sorry, I did indeed mean Richard, in both quotes. :doh:
Not sure if Ian has a view on mains connectors, but he's recently been given a hard time here for expressing his opinion.
Regards
I guess, Barry, it depends on what you mean by a "hard time"...
Ian's certainly been put through his paces, and challenged very robustly, but fairly regarding his views (certainly compared to how he's been treated on other forums), considering that they are diametrically opposed to those of the majority of our subjectivist-minded members.
I see it rather like I used to view some of my teachers at school, whom I saw as 'strict but fair', even though at the time I hated them, but whom I now ultimately look upon with respect and some admiration, because without them, I wouldn't have learned what I did, which has proven to be valuable in life. Their strictness, and on many occasions somewhat austere style of teaching, forced me to learn.
I would like to think that Ian's experience so far on AoS has been somewhat like that, and that if he doesn't participate here in the long term (which I do hope he does), he'll be able to look back on his time on AoS as being a learning experience, which has added to his exisitng bank of knowledge, and feel the same way towards that experience, as I do now towards the teachers at my old school....
He's certainly already said that AoS is the best forum he's been on so far, so I guess that augurs well for the future! :)
Marco.
Well Ian has offered to write some reviews of music biographies for the Library, so I guess he's going to stick around a while yet. Like you, I hope he does. :)
Regards
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 00:14
Quite simply it is impossible for an IEC plug even if it cost £1000 to be better than no plug at all. And then you still have the socket - equally horrible thing.
So we suffer with the IEC like all of Europe, but also we suffer from the worst plug into the wall in the UK of all of them (the only one in the world with a bloody fuse in it) because we have a damn fool ring main system that no one else in the world will use because they think they are dangerous, on top of sounding bloody awful. Being fed by a National Grid that is the noisiest and highest line impedance of any of the major European countries. With overhead feeds because it costs too much to put them underground that stand there like radio antenna.
Hark at me talking, as I have done nothing in my present house apart from tighten everything up and insist on a new decent consumer unit. Back in my old factory in the 90's I wired it all myself with 15amp round pin on radials with a ground grid. Everyone I spoke to about it thought I was bonkers when I did it in 1992, now finally people are talking about it.
It was Russ Andrew's book, 'The Power and the Glory', which started me down the 'optimised mains' route, sometime around the early 90s....
My mains set-up is rather naughty, and not something I can really discuss in detail here, due to issues of safety.
However, suffice to say, that from the incoming mains supply into the house, my hi-fi system receives the most hard-wired supply physically possible (in the form of a single spur, using heavy-duty 'elephant's trunk' 16mm armoured cable), supplying a dedicated CU, located next to my system, and including a dedicated earth, via a series of 8ft 'star-wired' copper earth rods, plunged into my garden.
We also live well out with of the centre of Wrexham, and miles away from any heavy industry, and our house shares its mains supply from a mini sub-station, a few hundred yards away, with the pub next door - and that's it!
When the sparky last measured the impedance on the mains supply feeding my system, it read as low as .28 Ohms ;)
From there, the 'Ultimates' get jiggy with the ultra-low impedance (and about as clean as it gets) mains supply they're being fed with, and 'turbo-charge' the system accordingly, with spectacular results........ :rave: :eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
I am glad you are going to find space for a resident objectivist.
I will not tell you you are not hearing any difference, because you are, but I will, if appropriate ask as to why you think you hear a difference.
If any science (general term) comes my way, I'll air it for fruitful discussion and if any of you come across something you think I may be interested in, please let me know.
I will poke holes in pseudoscience.
Re power cord, the reason why I don't think they really do what they claim they do is because of the gubbins inside the amp/CDP etc they are plugged into and how that regulates the power the kit needs. That it seems to me negates anything the power cord would do.
Re plugs, a mate works for a defence company who make their own cables. These are braided and hardened as they need to work in very hostile environments (like the inside of a missile being guided to its target) and how that cable is connected to whatever it needs to be is the single most important part of the whole construction.
He is also an audiophile who thinks the whole cable malarky is bollocks....;)
He uses cheap cambridge and stock cables throughout his whole AV set up.
He would also have a fit if he read the Nordost website and its referencing to cables saving lives and hospitals and stuff. Like any hospital would pay Nordost prices for Nordost cables. :rolleyes:
Shall I bring some with me next time I come down?
Yes, do please. I've got to know ;)
The straight version is Furutech FI-1363 and is available in Gold or Rhodium, lots of websites sell them :) ( the angled version has L in the part number)
Thanks, Mark. I feel some rework coming in the summer. Are the plugs screw terminal or solder?
Jeez, a pair of these (http://www.speakerworld.nl/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=491&category_id=75&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=109), along with a pair of these (http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BEHEP4000&product=Behringer_EP4000_Power_Amplifier) & you have just broke the £1500 barrier...
Yes, Mark, but I don't need or want those :scratch:
I'm not advocating spending £4k on power cables but I'm always looking for ways to get my system performing better. There are still avenues for me on the power front: upgrade to the new Powerplant P10, upgrad to Kimber Signature cables, re-plug my existing cables etc.
There is no doubt in my mind that power treatment is even more important than interconnects/speaker cables.
There's about £5.5k worth of cables in total in my system, which in a system with around £20k worth of components, I guess is a reasonable and justified level of expenditure.
Spot-on, Marco. I think that's a justifiable expenditure on cables to achieve the level of performance you have.
A quick tot-up and I have about £9k of cables in a £45k system, so a little less percentage spend than you. However, my speaker cables alone account for nearly half of that, so I have room for better power cables.
He is also an audiophile who thinks the whole cable malarky is bollocks....;)
He uses cheap cambridge and stock cables throughout his whole AV set up.
The problem is, Ian, that's a closed mind approach. He may well have a revelation if he tried a few decent power cables in his sytem but he's never going to know because he won't try it.
Covenant
24-06-2011, 06:59
Spot-on, Marco. I think that's a justifiable expenditure on cables to achieve the level of performance you have.
A quick tot-up and I have about £9k of cables in a £45k system, so a little less percentage spend than you. However, my speaker cables alone account for nearly half of that, so I have room for better power cables.
:stalks:
Spot-on, Marco. I think that's a justifiable expenditure on cables to achieve the level of performance you have.
A quick tot-up and I have about £9k of cables in a £45k system, so a little less percentage spend than you. However, my speaker cables alone account for nearly half of that, so I have room for better power cables.
Hehehe... I thought your system cost would be roughly double mine! :eyebrows:
Your speakers alone, I believe, aren't far off the cost of my system (ex-cables)? :)
Marco.
P.S I'll bring the ultimates down with me next time.
Are the plugs screw terminal or solder?
They are screw terminals Martin
I am glad you are going to find space for a resident objectivist.
If any science (general term) comes my way, I'll air it for fruitful discussion and if any of you come across something you think I may be interested in, please let me know.
Re plugs, a mate works for a defence company who make their own cables.
He is also an audiophile who thinks the whole cable malarky is bollocks....;)
He uses cheap cambridge and stock cables throughout his whole AV set up.
... and the objective science behind his reasoning is?
Spot-on, Marco. I think that's a justifiable expenditure on cables to achieve the level of performance you have.
A quick tot-up and I have about £9k of cables in a £45k system, so a little less percentage spend than you. However, my speaker cables alone account for nearly half of that, so I have room for better power cables.
I'd love to hear your system!
It's quite something! :fingers: :hairmetal: :hairmetal:
Marco.
It's quite something! :fingers: :hairmetal: :hairmetal:
Marco.
And yours! :¬)
Bake-offs are welcome anytime :cool:
Marco.
Quite simply it is impossible for an IEC plug even if it cost £1000 to be better than no plug at all. And then you still have the socket - equally horrible thing.
So we suffer with the IEC like all of Europe, but also we suffer from the worst plug into the wall in the UK of all of them (the only one in the world with a bloody fuse in it) because we have a damn fool ring main system that no one else in the world will use because they think they are dangerous, on top of sounding bloody awful. Being fed by a National Grid that is the noisiest and highest line impedance of any of the major European countries. With overhead feeds because it costs too much to put them underground that stand there like radio antenna.
Hark at me talking, as I have done nothing in my present house apart from tighten everything up and insist on a new decent consumer unit. Back in my old factory in the 90's I wired it all myself with 15amp round pin on radials with a ground grid. Everyone I spoke to about it thought I was bonkers when I did it in 1992, now finally people are talking about it.
As a mains distribution system, the ring main was an inspired idea. Introduced just after the war, it was designed to save on expensive copper and depended on the concept that not all of the wall sockets in the house would be used at any one time - that the total load would be no more than 30A; a reasonable estimate in those days. Since the ring would itself be protected by a 30A fuse, individual items would need protection - hence a fuse was fitted into the plug. This is far safer than plugging a 40W table lamp into a 15A socket (there would have been nothing to prevent one from fitting such a plug) and relying on the 15A fuse for protection.
Clearly with time there is now a much larger use of electrical items, so the concept of redundancy is harder to justify. Most new houses these days will have two rings and where there is the most use (in the kitchen) there may even be a ring that just serves the kitchen. For the usual electrical appliances the ring main system is perfectly good and, in my opinion, superior to any used in the EU. (A lot of plug/wall sockets used in the EU are such that the plug can be inserted either way round - that is why to conform to CE regulations all equipment must use a double pole switch, however the fuse can still end up on the neutral earthy side!)
Where the ring main is unsucessful is when it comes to the use of AV equipment. With the prevelence of SMPS, switching artefacts generated by one piece of gear (that might be in a separate room) might be electrically close to the wall socket supplying the AV gear. The cable length of the wiring between the two has insufficient inductance to dampen out the artefacts, whereas in a radial system the cable length back to the consumer unit are long enough.
Do you have any evidence to support your comment that the UK system is "the noisiest and highest line impedance of any of the major European countries"? I don't know of any country that does not use overhead cables somewhere in its distribution system.
When they were first introduced the 13A mains plug was very well designed and safer than any of the plugs used in Europe; even safer than the round pin system used in the UK at that time. It was heavily over-engineered and it is only due to versions of the plug made by manufacturers who have not understood the full safety features, and the wretched EU for insisting that the current carrying pins are clad, thereby reducing their cross section, that the 13A plug design is being criticised.
Bake-offs are welcome anytime :cool:
Marco.
640 mile round-trip makes it a tad awkward (for me, anyway!) :D
What's the train service like? I could always pick you up at a station somewhere near-ish and drive you the rest of the way :)
Marco.
Good post, Barry, but I suspect, since we're talking about audio equipment, that Richard's argument against the ring-main system and 13A plugs, is based around sound quality, not safety ;)
Most of your counter-argument, however, (understandably) appears to be based on the latter.
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 10:45
As a mains distribution system, the ring main was an inspired idea. Introduced just after the war, it was designed to save on expensive copper and depended on the concept that not all of the wall sockets in the house would be used at any one time - that the total load would be no more than 30A; a reasonable estimate in those days. Since the ring would itself be protected by a 30A fuse, individual items would need protection - hence a fuse was fitted into the plug. This is far safer than plugging a 40W table lamp into a 15A socket (there would have been nothing to prevent one from fitting such a plug) and relying on the 15A fuse for protection.
Clearly with time there is now a much larger use of electrical items, so the concept of redundancy is harder to justify. Most new houses these days will have two rings and where there is the most use (in the kitchen) there may even be a ring that just serves the kitchen. For the usual electrical appliances the ring main system is perfectly good and, in my opinion, superior to any used in the EU. (A lot of plug/wall sockets used in the EU are such that the plug can be inserted either way round - that is why to conform to CE regulations all equipment must use a double pole switch, however the fuse can still end up on the neutral earthy side!)
Where the ring main is unsucessful is when it comes to the use of AV equipment. With the prevelence of SMPS, switching artefacts generated by one piece of gear (that might be in a separate room) might be electrically close to the wall socket supplying the AV gear. The cable length of the wiring between the two has insufficient inductance to dampen out the artefacts, whereas in a radial system the cable length back to the consumer unit are long enough.
Do you have any evidence to support your comment that the UK system is "the noisiest and highest line impedance of any of the major European countries"? I don't know of any country that does not use overhead cables somewhere in its distribution system.
When they were first introduced the 13A mains plug was very well designed and safer than any of the plugs used in Europe; even safer than the round pin system used in the UK at that time. It was heavily over-engineered and it is only due to versions of the plug made by manufacturers who have not understood the full safety features, and the wretched EU for insisting that the current carrying pins are clad, thereby reducing their cross section, that the 13A plug design is being criticised.
I quote:
The final ring-circuit concept has been criticized in a number of ways, and some of these disadvantages could explain the lack of widespread adoption outside the United Kingdom.
The only way to see the pros and cons of ring circuits is to compare them to the other option: radials.
Fault conditions are not apparent when in use
Ring circuits continue to operate without the user being aware of any problem if there are fault conditions or installation errors that make the circuit unsafe.
Part of the ring missing or loose connections result in 2.5 mm2 cables running above rated current at times, resulting in reduced cable life.
Radials with a broken connection will not function (if L or N broken), or function with no safety earth connection (if E broken).
Accidental cross connection between two 32 A rings means that the fault current protection reaches 64 A and the required fault disconnection times are violated grossly.
Testing at installation addresses this.
Ring spur installations encourage using three connectors in one terminal, which can cause one to become loose and overheat.
The same situation occurs with both radial and ring circuits when branching off is used.
Rings encourage the installation of too many spurs on a ring, leading to a risk of overheating, especially if spur cables are too long without adequate fusing at the spur-point (i.e. a BS5733 or similar fused spur is not used) - although this is almost certainly a breach of the appropriate electrical standards (e.g. BS7671 in the UK).
Complexity of safety tests
Testing ring circuits may take 5–6 times longer than testing radial circuits. The installation tests required for the safe operation of a ring circuit are substantially more time consuming than those for a radial circuit, and DIY installers or electricians qualified in other countries may not be familiar with them.
It is also becoming very apparent that a majority of UK electricians are unfamiliar with the test requirements and, as a result, most ring circuits are not adequately tested, either at first installation or subsequently during the infrequent periodic inspections.
Balancing requirement
Regulation 433-02-04 of BS 7671 requires that the installed load is distributed around the ring such that no part of the cable exceeds its capacity. This requirement is difficult to fulfil and may be largely ignored in practice, as loads are often co-located (washing machine, tumble dryer, dish washer all next to kitchen sink) and not necessarily near the centre of the ring.
Electromagnetic interference
Ring circuits can generate strong unwanted magnetic fields. In a normal (non-ring, radial) circuit, the current flowing in the circuit must return through (almost exactly) the same path through which it came, especially if the live and neutral conductors are kept in close proximity of each other and form a twisted pair. This prevents the circuit forming a large magnetic coil (loop antenna), which would otherwise induce a magnetic field at the AC frequency (50 or 60 Hz).
In a ring circuit, on the other hand, it is possible that the live and neutral currents are not equal on each side of the ring. Mains-frequency currents follow the path of least resistance, and it is possible, especially with ageing oxidised contacts, that from a socket, the lowest-resistance live connection is along the left-hand side of the ring, and the lowest-resistance neutral connection is along the right-hand side. As a result, current is flowing around the ring and will therefore induce a magnetic field. In the extreme case of a defect ring circuit, the live connection could become completely interrupted on one side of the ring and the neutral connection on the other, and then the full current would supply the magnetic field. This can lead to substantial electromagnetic interference, such as mains hum in audio devices, accidental triggering of alarm and protection devices (burglar alarms, RCDs, etc.), malfunctions of consumer electronics and medical devices, ground loops, etc.
Overcurrent protection
Ring circuits may not always be adqeuately protected against overcurrents, particularly, as is often the case, if there is an undetected fault, AND the circuit conductors are not sized to match the Overcurrent Protective Device (OPD) as a radial run as opposed to a ring. The purpose of ring circuits is to supply a large number of sockets; therefore, they are protected only with high-rated overcurrent circuit breakers (typically 32 A). In comparison, the radial circuits used in other countries typically supply only a small number of sockets and are therefore protected with lower-rated circuit breakers (typically 10–20 A). As a result, countries using ring circuits find it necessary to add additional lower-rated fuses into the plugs of each appliance. This does create a possible improvement in safety in that an appliance with blown plug fuse will not be live when plugged in again (unless the fuse is first replaced), whereas with fuseless plugs a faulty appliance remains potentially dangerous to plug in, though in most cases it would trip a lower-rated circuit breaker if plugged in again.
This incompatibility in the overcurrent protection of appliance leads between countries using ring and radial circuits has been a major stumbling block on the road to worldwide standardisation of domestic AC power plugs and sockets. Although plug-fuses can, in principle, be better matched to the maximum current required by an appliance, in practice, some plugs in the UK are necessarily fitted with a fuse of the maximum permitted rating of 13 A, because a lower-rated device may well operate intermittently due to "surges" (e.g. fit a 3A BS1362 fuse in the plug-top of a fridge, and it will often blow). This is not a problem since all appliances are required to be safe with a 13 A fuse (and in any case, in other EU countries, the appliance concerned is often protected by a 16 A or 20 A OPD for the circuit concerned), but it does mean the potential safety advantage is only partially realised and that the fused plug offers little advantage over an unfused plug used on radial circuit with a 13 A or lower fuse, or B16 or lower circuit breaker. The introduction of regulations in the UK - the Plugs and Sockets (Safety) Regulations - requiring new appliances to be sold with correctly fused pre-fitted plugs improves this situation further.
One theoretical advantage of individually-fused plugs is that a faulty appliance or flexible cord has a high likelihood of blowing only its plug-top fuse, leaving other appliances on the same ring circuit operating. However, with the introduction of EN60898 mcb's and the increased use of RCD protection for general purpose socket outlets in the UK (under BS7671: 2008 and earlier editions of the same standard) means that it is now more likely that the circuit protective device will operate before the plug-top fuse.
Where's the quote from Richard?
Marco.
What's the train service like? I could always pick you up at a station somewhere near-ish and drive you the rest of the way :)
Marco.
No idea, will have a look. Very kind of you to offer :¬)
Good post, Barry, but I suspect, since we're talking about audio equipment, that Richard's argument against the ring-main system and 13A plugs, is based around sound quality, not safety ;)
Most of your counter-argument, however, (understandably) appears to be based on the latter.
Marco.
Agreed. I fully understand and appreciate the use of radial mains systems for AV use. My 'diatribe' in defense of the ring main system was due to the fact that it often comes in for a lot of flack these days. Espoused by people who do not fully appreciate what an inspired idea it was when originally proposed, and how if it was still used in the way intended, would be the safest system in the world. :)
An example of a first-class piece of British design and engineering. But then everything British is considered "rubbish" these days! :steam:
Rant over.
No idea, will have a look. Very kind of you to offer :¬)
S'all part of the service, sir ;)
Maybe use Chester as the destination station, if that makes it easier?
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 10:59
Agreed. I fully understand and appreciate the use of radial mains systems for AV use. My 'diatribe' in defense of the ring main system was due to the fact that it often comes in for a lot of flack these days. Espoused by people who do not fully appreciate what an inspired idea it was when originally proposed, and how if it was still used in the way intended, would be the safest system in the world. :)
An example of a first-class piece of British design and engineering. But then everything British is considered "rubbish" these days! :steam:
Rant over.
Then why does the rest of the world refuse to use it and says it is potentially dangerous, my quote explains why.
Your quote from where? I did ask...
Marco.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 11:05
Where's the quote from Richard?
Marco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit I have linked to it before.
Also on history I quote:-
History and use
The ring circuit and the associated BS 1363 plug and socket system were developed in Britain during 1942–1947.[1] They are commonly used in the United Kingdom and to a lesser extent in the Republic of Ireland. They are also found in the United Arab Emirates. It is likely that they are also used in parts of the Commonwealth of Nations, where Britain had design influence in the past.
The ring circuit came about because Britain had to embark on a massive rebuilding programme following World War II.[2] There was an acute shortage of copper, and it was necessary to devise a scheme that used less copper than would normally be the case. The scheme was specified to use 13 A fused socket outlets, and several designs for the plugs and sockets appeared. Only the square pin (BS 1363) system survives, but the round pin Dorman & Smith system was still in use in many locations well into the 1980s, and is still occasionally seen today. This latter plug had the distinctive feature that the fuse was also the live pin and unscrewed from the plug body.
The ring circuit was devised during a time of copper shortage to allow two 3 kW heaters to be used in any two locations and to allow some power to small appliances, and to keep total copper use low. It has stayed the most common circuit configuration in the UK, although the 20 A radial (essentially breaking each ring in half and putting the halves on a separate breaker) is becoming more common. Splitting a ring into two 20 A radials can be a useful technique where one leg of the ring is damaged and cannot easily be replaced.
Another advantage of ring circuits was an economy of cable and labour, as one could connect a cable between two existing 15 A radially wired sockets to make one 30 A ring, then adding as many sockets as were desired. This was an important consideration in the austerity of the 1940s. This would leave the ring supplied by two 15 A fuses, which worked well enough in practice, even if unconventional.
Many pre-war (round pin) installations used double pole fusing. When two 15 A radials were converted to a ring on these systems, the ring would then be supplied by no fewer than 4 fuses. Such circuits are rare today.
Me again - It is the same as UK white bread and all the other crap introduced after the war because we were broke and had to survive the fact that we were paying off the Yanks lend lease stitch up, which because of the interest involved we didn't end up paying off until 2002. Everyone else in Europe got the Marshall plan and free loans, we were stitched, so much for being an ally :steam:
I quote:
Would be interested to know the source of that quote. Most of the criticism seems to come down to the inadequate installation and/or modification of an installed ring main by electricians (and amateurs) who do not know what they are doing.
It was never suggested that current supplying a particular load would be shared equally by both halves of the ring. Clearly if a 3kW load (say a kettle) is plugged into a socket that happens to be the first one one one side of the ring nearest the consumer unit then the current will flow predominantly in that piece of wiring, itself capable of carrying a 15A current. Agreed there would be problems if, say, two 3kW heaters were plugged into adjacent sockets. I believe, nowadays the rings are wired with 20A rated cable.
Either system will work if the ECC is missing; it's not a unique design failing of the ring-main system. Loose connections are a danger in both systems.
Accidental cross-connection of two rings should not happen if any electrician knows what he is doing.
There is a limit to the number of spurs that can be fitted in a ring-main system by the wiring regulations. There was never any prevention of 'daisy chains' being used in the radial system.
Increased testing time is no criticism of the design: qualified electricians should know how to do the correct testing.
Loose and/or oxidised contacts can occur with either system and will do so with time. It is a good idea, every couple of years or so, to check and tighten all screw connections in the mains system.
Ideally no 13A plug should be sold with a fuse. That way the appropriate rated fuse will be fitted in use. Of course there is nothin to stop the user abusing the system, but there again there is nothing to stop a user from plugging a low consumption device into a radial system protected by a 20A breaker.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 11:46
Would be interested to know the source of that quote. Most of the criticism seems to come down to the inadequate installation and/or modification of an installed ring main by electricians (and amateurs) who do not know what they are doing.
It was never suggested that current supplying a particular load would be shared equally by both halves of the ring. Clearly if a 3kW load (say a kettle) is plugged into a socket that happens to be the first one one one side of the ring nearest the consumer unit then the current will flow predominantly in that piece of wiring, itself capable of carrying a 15A current. Agreed there would be problems if, say, two 3kW heaters were plugged into adjacent sockets. I believe, nowadays the rings are wired with 20A rated cable.
Either system will work if the ECC is missing; it's not a unique design failing of the ring-main system. Loose connections are a danger in both systems.
Accidental cross-connection of two rings should not happen if any electrician knows what he is doing.
There is a limit to the number of spurs that can be fitted in a ring-main system by the wiring regulations. There was never any prevention of 'daisy chains' being used in the radial system.
Increased testing time is no criticism of the design: qualified electricians should know how to do the correct testing.
Loose and/or oxidised contacts can occur with either system and will do so with time. It is a good idea, every couple of years or so, to check and tighten all screw connections in the mains system.
Ideally no 13A plug should be sold with a fuse. That way the appropriate rated fuse will be fitted in use. Of course there is nothin to stop the user abusing the system, but there again there is nothing to stop a user from plugging a low consumption device into a radial system protected by a 20A breaker.
I quote that as I could have written it myself with the time and research, the ring has had its day, we are no longer *as* broke. Time to go radial and either take the bloody fuse ot of the 13amp plug or just leave 13amp and forget it. Or for audio work go back to the old standard 15 amp circuit. With the development of better, and now intelligent, consumer units the whole ring project is a waste of time and dangerous.
The reason it is dangerous is as it gets older connections loosen and wire dielectric deteriorates. With a radial circuit it always fails safe, with a ring it often fails in a dangerous state and looks as if it is still functioning, but is kicking out massive electromagnetic field (which it does in a smaller way anyway, even if functioning correctly) or overheats and potentially causes house fires.
I have said this before. In the 70's I had cricket friend who I played with for Leicester Town Cricket Club in Blaby, who was the head of Leicester fire service, he moaned and said within the fire service faulty rings were considered a major cause of house fires.
Your speakers alone, I believe, aren't far off the cost of my system (ex-cables)? :)
Not quite - I think they're about £13k now.
They are screw terminals Martin
Thanks. I'll be looking at getting some soon.
Hi Ian,
I am glad you are going to find space for a resident objectivist.
No worries, but only if you remain open-minded to the existence of audible phenomena outside of your current objectivist judgement criteria, and cynicism doesn't start to creep in and spoil any true objectivity! ;)
If any science (general term) comes my way, I'll air it for fruitful discussion and if any of you come across something you think I may be interested in, please let me know.
Nice one. Just keep reading the forum - I'm sure something will crop up soon enough!
Re plugs, a mate works for a defence company who make their own cables.
He is also an audiophile who thinks the whole cable malarky is bollocks....
You see, with that comment, your mate gains no respect, as his disrespectful remarks smack of blinkered dogma and close-mindedness, which is precisely what we don't want here!
Marco.
If you are using stock ac cables on Avantgarde woofer modules, try some reputedly "fast" cords and see what you think.
Might be pleasantly surprised if you choose the right ones.
Thanks Cliff, might give that a go. Have you got Avantgardes?
The problem is, Ian, that's a closed mind approach. He may well have a revelation if he tried a few decent power cables in his sytem but he's never going to know because he won't try it.
I suppose, but as a scientist who works with cabling he is very much in the camp of there is unlikely to be anything in a cable which can cause sound quality differences and certainly no link from different cable construction to sound quality.
Then there is the counterargument that that the subjectivists are closed minded to the differences in cables being in their heads :eek:
:sofa:
No, no, we just have conviction in our senses! :)
I suppose, but as a scientist who works with cabling he is very much in the camp of there is unlikely to be anything in a cable which can cause sound quality differences...
He doesn't sound like a proper scientist to me. From that evidence, he's nowhere near curious enough. How hard has he investigated the phenomenon? Or is he just one of the usual cynical types, who pooh-poohs the existence of anything that's not right in front of his nose?? ;)
Marco.
as a scientist who works with cabling he is very much in the camp of there is unlikely to be anything in a cable which can cause sound quality differences and certainly no link from different cable construction to sound quality.
Bad scientist! Remember Copernicus and what he had to fight against...
Ah no Marco, you are being too harsh again by coming to the most negative conclusion about what I have said. Remember, so far you have called me a hypocrit who has no credibility and no place on this forum.
Others read that and get an impression of you. They also read what I have actually posted, hopefully all of it and will see I and my friend are more open minded and curious than you are trying to make us out to be.
We are both all up for something in a cable being the cause of sound quality differences, our position at the moment is that is none and the explanation more likely lies elsewhere. Are you open minded to that? :cool:
Hello Richard,
I have had a careful read of the Wiki article and it’s not nearly so damming of the ring-system as you implied. The alternative radial system it would seem is not immune to design shortcomings. The criticisms of the ring system raised are minimised, if not eliminated by competent installation and through the use of ‘best practice’. Like any system in constant use, mains wiring should be inspected and maintained periodically.
I regard the radial system as unsafe and possibly dangerous due to the lack of individual appliance over-current protection. Minimised, if there is a strict “one wall socket per radial line” policy, but even then do you seriously expect a 60W reading-lamp, a 100W telly or a 150W fridge to be adequately protected by the 20A circuit breaker? Until every appliance is fitted with its own fuse or MCB of the correct rating, plug top fuses are in my opinion necessary and essential.
The only criticism of the ring that has any credence is the one whereby current can flow around the whole ring, creating a current loop and thus generating a magnetic field. Well, the maximum field strength would be 32 ampere- turns, or a magnetic flux density of 40 micro Tesla. This is twice the Earth’s own magnetic field and whilst it is not static, if it upsets burglar alarms and other electrical items it doesn’t say much for the EMC design of those affected items.
You ask why the ring system has not been adopted elsewhere in the world. Well, other countries already had radial systems just as we did: the British installing them in their possessions at the time and the Americans advising the Japanese with their system, and have seen no reason to change. That does not make the radial system safer – have you seen the installations in some Asian countries?
In the EU one of the principles underlying any adoption of a uniform or harmonised convention is one of “equal inconvenience to all”. That is why every member state in the EU had to change it’s own wiring colour convention, and why the new IEC ‘euro-connector’ was introduced.
Clearly we are not going to agree about the relative merits of either system, and will have to agree to disagree, especially as the thread is about mains leads for AV use, and draw a line under this discussion.
All this talk of mains and the Russ Abdrews booklet Power and Glory on the effect of the mains does mean I have two mains conditioners.
Depending on where I have lived they have either had no effect or some. The simple test for me was to turn the volume control and listen for hiss. If the conditioner meant a higher volume before hiss became apparent the conditioner was worthwhile.
I have not had a mains cable do that.
Depending on where I have lived they have either had no effect or some. The simple test for me was to turn the volume control and listen for hiss. If the conditioner meant a higher volume before hiss became apparent the conditioner was worthwhile.
Ian, that's not what mains cables are about. If they are successful at filtering RFI it won't result in a reduction in hiss, which is primarily caused by the circuitry in the active components of a hi-fi system. RFI can cause intermodulation with the primary signal so the result is more like what we hear: a general cleaning up of the sound, the perception of greater dynamics and music coming from a blacker background.
worthingpagan
24-06-2011, 16:58
"I and my friend are more open minded and curious"
"he is very much in the camp of there is unlikely to be anything in a cable which can cause sound quality differences"
:scratch::mental:
So you cannot be open minded and curious and come up with the conclusion something is unlikely?
Others read that and get an impression of you. They also read what I have actually posted, hopefully all of it and will see I and my friend are more open minded and curious than you are trying to make us out to be.
Sorry, I have to disagree and I'm totally with Marco.
Tell me, have you actually ever sat down and tried a lot of different cables for yourself and formulated your own opinion? Unless I have misread your posts, I mostly get the impression your opinions are based on reading and listening to what others have said. And even if they were right, that only applies to the circumstances in which they carried out their tests. There never can be any substitute for your own room, your own system and your own music. If you are not willing to do that then you really do have a closed mind IMO.
I also struggle to believe a scientist of all people would have that opinion too :scratch:
Yes, for most of my years as a hiif enthusiast I have been playing around with cables. I had 4 different speaker cables, 8 ICs including my DIY one, I have tried various headphone cables again including a DIY one, 3 power cords and most recently 3 USB cables.
Each has varied from stock to after market, though not in the mega money bracket. The most expensive speaker cable was Kimber, IC also Kimber, power cord Russ Andrews and USB Oehlbach.
From that I formed my OWN opinions. I have ALSO taken others opinions and evidence into account.
My mate has also bought aftermarket cables, Cambridge being the brand I can remember. He too has listened to such with and stock cables and found he hears no difference. His knowledge about cables means he has made his OWN mind up and is on the objectivist side.
I have said that repeatedly, but all you guys do is concentrate on the others part.
Now do you have an open mind? Could cables just be placebo? :popcorn:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 17:21
Ah no Marco, you are being too harsh again by coming to the most negative conclusion about what I have said. Remember, so far you have called me a hypocrit who has no credibility and no place on this forum.
Others read that and get an impression of you. They also read what I have actually posted, hopefully all of it and will see I and my friend are more open minded and curious than you are trying to make us out to be.
We are both all up for something in a cable being the cause of sound quality differences, our position at the moment is that is none and the explanation more likely lies elsewhere. Are you open minded to that? :cool:
The day you open your ears and trust them then you might have enough credibility for me to open my mind to what you say, instead of *personally* just dismissing you as a troll.
It's difficult, Ian, not to make this argument circular.
I can reset my brain to open-minded (have done many times). Every time I then change cables I can hear a difference. Not always better, but repeatable. Mostly, I leave it well alone because I don't want to keep messing with it and because getting to my cables behind my rack is tricky. However, I don't regret what I've spent on power cables as the ones I use are considerably better sounding than stock moulded cables.
I don't really know what else to say. If you can't hear differences then I believe you, but I have to put it down to lack of resolution in your system.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 17:24
Hello Richard,
I have had a careful read of the Wiki article and it’s not nearly so damming of the ring-system as you implied. The alternative radial system it would seem is not immune to design shortcomings. The criticisms of the ring system raised are minimised, if not eliminated by competent installation and through the use of ‘best practice’. Like any system in constant use, mains wiring should be inspected and maintained periodically.
I regard the radial system as unsafe and possibly dangerous due to the lack of individual appliance over-current protection. Minimised, if there is a strict “one wall socket per radial line” policy, but even then do you seriously expect a 60W reading-lamp, a 100W telly or a 150W fridge to be adequately protected by the 20A circuit breaker? Until every appliance is fitted with its own fuse or MCB of the correct rating, plug top fuses are in my opinion necessary and essential.
The only criticism of the ring that has any credence is the one whereby current can flow around the whole ring, creating a current loop and thus generating a magnetic field. Well, the maximum field strength would be 32 ampere- turns, or a magnetic flux density of 40 micro Tesla. This is twice the Earth’s own magnetic field and whilst it is not static, if it upsets burglar alarms and other electrical items it doesn’t say much for the EMC design of those affected items.
You ask why the ring system has not been adopted elsewhere in the world. Well, other countries already had radial systems just as we did: the British installing them in their possessions at the time and the Americans advising the Japanese with their system, and have seen no reason to change. That does not make the radial system safer – have you seen the installations in some Asian countries?
In the EU one of the principles underlying any adoption of a uniform or harmonised convention is one of “equal inconvenience to all”. That is why every member state in the EU had to change it’s own wiring colour convention, and why the new IEC ‘euro-connector’ was introduced.
Clearly we are not going to agree about the relative merits of either system, and will have to agree to disagree, especially as the thread is about mains leads for AV use, and draw a line under this discussion.
You miss the point - a radial system fails safe - a ring system often fails unsafe - on top of which a ring interferes with your music - a radial does not - that for me is the end of the argument on both counts - safety and suitability for purpose.
Could cables just be placebo? :popcorn:
Not unless placebo can consistently re-occur day in day out, spanning many years and many THOUSANDS of different cables. That is just me as one individual, so you can easily repeat a good percentage of that broad experience across millions of individuals all around the globe.
I can only find ONE scientifically recorded instance of placebo happening twice to one individual.
Guys, sorry but I am going to have to scream this out to try and make it clear
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN SOUND BETWEEN CABLES.
I HAVE HEARD THOSE DIFFERENCES MYSELF.
I THINK THAT THE CABLE MAKERS ARE VERY GUILTY OF PSUEDOSCIENCE IN TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHERE THE DIFFERENCES COME FROM.
THE REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS THAT YOU SAY THE DIFFERENCE IS CAUSED BY THE CABLE AND I SAY THAT IT UNLIKELY.
Now please answer my question. Are you closed minded to the potential the sound difference with your cables is down to you and not the cable?
I had cable scpetics hear my system without any quality mains cables and with and even the sceptics would agree my system sounds a lot better with good cables The results are repeatable and totally predictable
Ian if you ever in NW London you more than welcome to come round and report your findings
Now do you have an open mind? Could cables just be placebo? :popcorn:
In my case no, they do make a difference - and that's it for me I'm more than bored with this tail chasing, you are either not listening or not hearing..... now where's my fly swatter :scratch:
THE REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS THAT YOU SAY THE DIFFERENCE IS CAUSED BY THE CABLE AND I SAY THAT IT UNLIKELY.
Now please answer my question. Are you closed minded to the potential the sound difference with your cables is down to you and not the cable?
I used the word 'repeatable' deliberately. I can repeat the effect of a cable change backwards and forwards. The difference is down to the cable.
I used the word 'repeatable' deliberately. I can repeat the effect of a cable change backwards and forwards. The difference is down to the cable.
I can do the same
So if this is not the cable what is it as its the only thing that changed
I had cable scpetics here my system without any quality mains cables and with and even the sceptics would agree my system sounds a lot better with good cables The results are repeatable and totally predictable
Ian if you ever in NW London you more than welcome to come round and report your findings
Thanks, I would love to and it would be interesting as to whether I would hear a difference or not. :)
I suspect I would in a sighted situation with you raving about the quailty cables and not if we then did an ABX test.
Why that is the case is one of the things that interests me.
Lol I know the brain can be tricksy but ............
One my friends who is a cable sceptic came round; we were playing with phonostages I accendently put the wrong cable into the phonostage we been playing around (so no expectation bais) The sound was a lot muddier I was wondering why and my friend then said after a few mins thinking why you put the other mains cable into the unit, as soon as we changed the cable the sound was no longer muddy
We are both all up for something in a cable being the cause of sound quality differences, our position at the moment is that is none and the explanation more likely lies elsewhere. Are you open minded to that?
Yes, Ian, but if you don't want me to be 'too harsh and come to a negative conclusion about what you have said', then don't write stuff like this:
Re plugs, a mate works for a defence company who make their own cables.
He is also an audiophile who thinks the whole cable malarky is bollocks....
...because referring to other people's opposite experiences and beliefs to you (and your so-called scientist friend) as "bollocks" is disrespectful, rude, totally unconstructive, and liable to achieve nothing other than get peoples back's up.
Also, do not 'shout' again, by using enlarged and emboldened text, like you did with your post #215. That's the last time I will warn you.
I said that you wouldn't be banned from here, *if* you behaved yourself. Well if you carry on referring to other people's valid experiences as "bollocks" and 'shouting', to ram your message home, when other people don't automatically accept what you want them to accept, then you will be banned.
Do I make myself clear??
You're starting to show signs of the same intolerance all objectivists eventually do when they join here trying to be nice, but while their ultimate aim is to 'educate the believers'.
Things start out ok, but eventually the cracks show through, and relations break down when their plan is doomed to failure. Trust me, it always ends in tears, so if you don't want to become a similar statistic, then you know what to do.
I'm with Martin on this - the discussion is starting to get circular and no different to any other 'same old, same old' pointless cable discussions, so if things don't pick up soon, and something new isn't added to the mix, I'll be bringing this thread to an abrupt end.
Marco.
"I and my friend are more open minded and curious"
"he is very much in the camp of there is unlikely to be anything in a cable which can cause sound quality differences"
:scratch::mental:
Indeed, Mark, the dichotomy there is rather fascinating!!! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Marco,
This thread is crying out for someone to step in and once and for all emphatically state that cables make a difference to sound quality, better, same or worse, can only be those 3, different is same as same as it is maybe not better or worse, so based on what I know about cable believers (having well over 2000 satisfied cable users and more if I could be arsed looking it up) who is going to step onto the plank and confirm themselves a believer, a simple reply with B or NB will suffice I think, then we can close this rather pointless thread (pointless as in it's been done 100's of times before and ALWAYS ends in bans or arguments or closed threads), so who is gonna go first B or NB, no more need be said.:comatose:
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 18:32
Guys, sorry but I am going to have to scream this out to try and make it clear
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN SOUND BETWEEN CABLES.
I HAVE HEARD THOSE DIFFERENCES MYSELF.
I THINK THAT THE CABLE MAKERS ARE VERY GUILTY OF PSUEDOSCIENCE IN TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHERE THE DIFFERENCES COME FROM.
THE REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS THAT YOU SAY THE DIFFERENCE IS CAUSED BY THE CABLE AND I SAY THAT IT UNLIKELY.
Now please answer my question. Are you closed minded to the potential the sound difference with your cables is down to you and not the cable?
Of course its down to us, it is our ears, and how the stimulus created in the energetic system then activates the pleasure centre or not as the case maybe. Musical mud can never activate my pleasure centres unless it stimulates a recollection process from when it did in the past. Musical clarity does, but they are not the only parameters, there are many many aspects of sound that can do this. Try it with one of the new age discs of wind in the trees and the sound of water, you can see (hear) some of the same hooks that get you into it as you do with music. It is multi faceted perception as it is to do with the emotional energetic paths in the body not the intellect. AND that is where group tests especially blind testing lets you down, as you turn it into an intellectual process so that you can write comments or reviews, forget it, the brain is not capable of appreciating the emotional reaction that music creates, apart from you can say I like it or I prefer it or not as the case may be.
Apologies. It was very frustrating to be repeatedly accused of something I have not done.
What am I being intolerant of?
Again, how is it wrong to be open minded and then come to a conclusion that is still open ended and acceptable to new evidence?
What I read here is a lot of intolerance of my point of view and closed mindedness by the subjectiivists as to to the cause of cables sounding different.
I dont think there is any pont of continuing in this thread as all I ask why do cable make a difference and all you keep saying is they just do, which is not really an answer at all.
Reid Malenfant
24-06-2011, 18:35
I gave a perfectly good reply to this somewhere on this thread, i just can't be arsed to go back through it all to find it :eyebrows:
E2A:- apologies, it must have been on the other interconnect cables thread that also appears to have gone a tad OTT...
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 18:39
Apologies. It was very frustrating to be repeatedly accused of something I have not done.
What am I being intolerant of?
Again, how is it wrong to be open minded and then come to a conclusion that is still open ended and acceptable to new evidence?
What I read here is a lot of intolerance of my point of view and closed mindedness by the subjectiivists as to to the cause of cables sounding different.
I dont think there is any pont of continuing in this thread as all I ask why do cable make a difference and all you keep saying is they just do, which is not really an answer at all.
It is the only answer that matters.
Apologies. It was very frustrating to be repeatedly accused of something I have not done.
What am I being intolerant of?
Again, how is it wrong to be open minded and then come to a conclusion that is still open ended and acceptable to new evidence?
What I read here is a lot of intolerance of my point of view and closed mindedness by the subjectiivists as to to the cause of cables sounding different.
I dont think there is any pont of continuing in this thread as all I ask why do cable make a difference and all you keep saying is they just do, which is not really an answer at all.
It's because whether you care to admit it or not, Ian, what you're really trying to do is change the minds of the 'opposition', but dress it up as something slightly more palatable.
So give it up as a bad job, mate, as that is never going to happen.
People here have years and years of valid experience with cables, which totally contradicts what you believe, and so you are not going to change their minds by using a limp argument that's based basically around the age-old objectivist tenet of: 'you're imagining it, due to placebo'.
All that's going to happen, is simply what ALWAYS happens in these discussions, and that is that once either side starts to get increasingly frustrated at the other's lack of 'seeing sense', their frustration boils over, and then the insults start to fly. This was ably demonstrated by your behaviour earlier.
I've seen it happen time and time again on other forums, and it won't be happening here!
So, if you've got nothing new to add to the discussion, then I suggest that you bow out gracefully, agree to disagree, and concentrate on taking part in the threads elsewhere; where you are less liable to get yourself into trouble.
Cheers!
Marco.
There was a similar thread on another forum entitled..mains cables, the facts and the fiction, read 7015 times, went 15 pages, died off now, that one ended up with the author building mains filters for people try out (it was not me):)
It's because whether you care to admit it or not, Ian, what you're really trying to do is change the minds of the 'opposition', but dress it up as something slightly more palatable.
......
Well, I don't admit it as from the start the question has always been why, with me showing an open mind as to the cause being the cable, even posting evidence as to how that could be the case. If you guys can't even treat a why question without treating it as an attack, then as I said, I'll leave it.
From a private message to me (the cable musings and this thread have been running in tandem)
"As an aside - I have noticed the 'hard time' you have been given in the 'Cable musings' thread. In fact the attitude displayed by some of the participants have been rude, arrogant, patronising and expressed with ill manners, that whilst not in breach of forum rules, certainly are not in line with its Ethos."
Sorry again, faced with the above, I lost my rag.
PS - you'll find me in the library if you need me.
Mmm... I think I know who the author of that PM was. I recognise the writing style...!!
Of course I completely disagree with the contents of the PM, because if what has been outlined had genuinely happened, I'd have stepped in and done something about it.
Up until you started with the "bollocks" comment, and the 'shouting', it had simply been a robust exchange of views between adults - nothing more. No breach of our ethos had occurred.
I think that some folks (such as the author of that PM) perhaps need to thicken their skins a little...! Anyway, we'll leave that one there for now.
Well, I don't admit it.....
Indeed - because the trouble is, you don't realise that you're doing it.... :rolleyes:
Anyway, my view of the situation is exactly what I explained to you last night (in reference to my old teachers), if you remember that, which you appeared to take in good spirit.
Anyway, I don't want to fall out with you, Ian, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to other subjects, as this one has been done to death and is going nowhere constructive.
See you on the other threads! :cool:
Marco.
Covenant
24-06-2011, 19:24
After a couple of weeks use, I must say I am very pleased with my mains cable and think it was a good investment; I started the thread being very dubious so it does show that your opinion can be altered by experience.
Folowing on from that, I would be interested to hear if anyone has changed their power sockets for an upmarket silver plated or rhodium plated one and if it was worth it.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
24-06-2011, 19:35
Well, I don't admit it as from the start the question has always been why, with me showing an open mind as to the cause being the cable, even posting evidence as to how that could be the case. If you guys can't even treat a why question without treating it as an attack, then as I said, I'll leave it.
From a private message to me (the cable musings and this thread have been running in tandem)
"As an aside - I have noticed the 'hard time' you have been given in the 'Cable musings' thread. In fact the attitude displayed by some of the participants have been rude, arrogant, patronising and expressed with ill manners, that whilst not in breach of forum rules, certainly are not in line with its Ethos."
Sorry again, faced with the above, I lost my rag.
PS - you'll find me in the library if you need me.
Once again this is just arse about face. We were here with our consensus of mildly sceptics - believers - and couldn't bloody care lessers. It is you who came lecturing and hectoring us, we didn't search you out to come here and try to convert us from our fairly wide consensus. This is a form of conflict and bad social behaviour - and that is an accusation from one of the most accused wind up merchants on the web!
One of the most important parts of discussion is that it is a two way process, so it is incumbent on you to listen as well as spout as that just makes it hectoring and lecturing as I referred to it earlier.
For me it is classic troll behaviour that I have seen many many times on forums. PLUS you are a serial troll from your own admission you have tried this on other forums until they have given you the order of the boot, so you haven't learnt anything by this, have you? It is just banging your head on the door, and to what purpose, do you enjoy it, do we enjoy you doing it, is it likely we will even continue to listen to you. I would love you to come up with a new argument that may counter our reality, but you can't as it is our reality and no amount of intellectual argument can deny someone else's musical emotional reality.
EDIT - I tell you what go and join Audio Chews they will love to have another objectivist troll as they are being hectored at the moment by two of the finest, so join in there you will be in good company.
Guys, sorry but I am going to have to scream this out to try and make it clear
THERE ARE DIFFERENCES IN SOUND BETWEEN CABLES.
I HAVE HEARD THOSE DIFFERENCES MYSELF.
That obviously has satisfied the subjective aspect of the matter, so why do you need any more than that?
I THINK THAT THE CABLE MAKERS ARE VERY GUILTY OF PSUEDOSCIENCE IN TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHERE THE DIFFERENCES COME FROM.
Cable makers have some stark choices to make (I alluded to the way cable makers operate, but you ignored that the same as all my other posts) and IN THE ABSENCE OF OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC DATA, they have to promote the benefits of cables in a way that stimulates their purchase. I said it wasn't RFI and the rejection thereof, but as a cable maker it isn't a convincing enough argument to front your sales pitch with "They sound lovely, but we cannot say why". Why do you THINK they all resort to psuedo-science? It is not I can assure you to hoodwink and lie, they do it to compete with each other and one being econmical with the truth started a domino effect through all the others, so don't go flattering yourself that you play any part at all in that scenario.
THE REAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US IS THAT YOU SAY THE DIFFERENCE IS CAUSED BY THE CABLE AND I SAY THAT IT UNLIKELY.[/SIZE][/B]
Yes you have been banging on about it and to be honest I still say you are way off track - read the post I wrote before your shouting match. READ IT!!
Now please answer my question. Are you closed minded to the potential the sound difference with your cables is down to you and not the cable?
You are starting to sound like a stylus locked in a groove, so as they say on Dragon's Den, "I'm out"
Ok, guys, I've had enough of this. It should be said, however, that I am in full agreement with the sentiments expressed in Richard's and Frank's last posts above - spot on, guys!
This is it in a nutshell, Ian:
It is you who came lecturing and hectoring us, we didn't search you out to come here and try to convert us from our fairly wide consensus.
You must learn to respect that.
<Thread Closed>
Marco.
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