View Full Version : Too Much Resolution
When visiting my friend at the weekend I was blown away with how far he has pushed his system since I last heard it, apart for what it did to distorted guitars which for me meant I could not live with as the tone was wrong
My friend did an experment he put a balnket ove the speakers and suddenly the guitar sounded right I suddenly could hear a good distorted guitar.
The touble is I am having a hard tim undestanding what has happened here, the only way I can make sense of this is the drives were over cooking the frequency response and using a blanket calmed this down.
I am left with one major thought I value tonality more than I value resolution.
I am eally interested in othe peoples thoughts as to what else maybe happening:scratch:
I'd say you're not far wrong with 'too much resolution'. It's like over-retouching a digital photograph - easily done when Photoshop offers you so much power but it takes somebody else to point it out. I went to an exhibition of photographs at the Cube Gallery in central London couple of months back. The images were large scale digital, (although they never admit this in the text below!!) - I knew though because they were blatantly over-sharpened. Too much resolution!!
I remember my student days and my love of early 90's indie music - I used to drive around in my car listening to my crappy home-made compilation tapes on the crappiest of cassette players. Some how those distorted, mushy guitars never sounded as good as they did back then.
hifi_dave
23-05-2011, 16:41
I think you are correct in that a driver/drivers has far too much out put and skewing the sound. If a speaker is 'bright' with a rising HF, there will be an apparent increase in information but at the expense of tonality.
But to get a balanced sound with a 'blanket' over the speakers indicates that the mid/HF is very wrong indeed...:stalks:
Also bad phasing in the crossover point.
Some people call this kind of harshness "resolution" but I assure you it isn't anything of the sort.
Thank heavens for the BBC legacy and good working Quad electrostatics - it appears though that all the ESL-63's out there are beginning to suffer from dried out glues failing, with expensive results.. let alone later Spendors with hardened cone surrounds losing bass!
spendorman
23-05-2011, 18:38
Also bad phasing in the crossover point.
Some people call this kind of harshness "resolution" but I assure you it isn't anything of the sort.
Thank heavens for the BBC legacy and good working Quad electrostatics - it appears though that all the ESL-63's out there are beginning to suffer from dried out glues failing, with expensive results.. let alone later Spendors with hardened cone surrounds losing bass!
What about the B&W DM4's? I reckon a better speaker than the BC1, but with the virtues of the same tweeters.
The black surround DM4 bass units do not seem suffer much at all with hardening.
alfie2902
23-05-2011, 19:29
Can you have to much resolution?
I would say not, the only thing higher resolution can do is retrieve more of what's actually there, or are you saying his system is adding things that aren't on the recording?! The fault is with the tonal balance not the detail retrieval or are you saying we should hamstring our systems resolution in an aid to make it sound better because it's tonal accuracy is wrong? I think that's what an MP3 does!
Haselsh1
23-05-2011, 19:48
Are we actually talking about to much resolution here or a 'contrived artificialness'...? I adore Prog Rock but most of what has recently been re-mixed and re-released is certainly contrived and highly artificial. I for one am not too sure on this one.
Can you have to much resolution?
I would say not, the only thing higher resolution can do is retrieve more of what's actually there, or are you saying his system is adding things that aren't on the recording?! The fault is with the tonal balance not the detail retrieval or are you saying we should hamstring our systems resolution in an aid to make it sound better because it's tonal accuracy is wrong? I think that's what an MP3 does!
I am not saying anything about mp3 I am saying I want to understand what happened
I know what a electric guitar sounds like I know what I heard, what I want to do is make sense of it. The only explanation so far that makes sense is it was overcooked in a certain frequency region, hence the blanket making the difference.
I know these recordings well so am sure as I can be its not the recordings either
How can it be tonal balance be wrong if the covering of a blanket gets it sounding right?
Perhaps Anthony or someone can help me to understand what is going on here
Are we actually talking about to much resolution here or a 'contrived artificialness'...? I adore Prog Rock but most of what has recently been re-mixed and re-released is certainly contrived and highly artificial. I for one am not too sure on this one.
This is not the case all on orginal vinyl that I know well
Reid Malenfant
23-05-2011, 20:48
I am not saying anything about mp3 I am saying I want to understand what happened
I know what a electric guitar sounds like I know what I heard, what I want to do is make sense of it. The only explanation so far that makes sense is it was overcooked in a certain frequency region, hence the blanket making the difference.
I know these recordings well so am sure as I can be its not the recordings either
How can it be tonal balance be wrong if the covering of a blanket gets it sounding right?
Perhaps Anthony or someone can help me to understand what is going on here
John, i listen via Yamaha NS1000M monitors, or what remains of them & frankly they can be a bit 'forward'... It took me a while to suss out how the inbuilt attenuators needed to be set to give what i'd call a balanced presentation...
Turns out the mids needed to be lowered by 3Db over the standard setting (which is supposed to be flat :lol:) & the tweeters needed cutting by about 1Db.
It might not sound like a lot, but certain musical material will be grating given the stock settings. It's quite possible that this is the case with your friends speakers, a little adjustment might go a long way :)
alfie2902
23-05-2011, 21:04
I am not saying anything about mp3 I am saying I want to understand what happened
I know what a electric guitar sounds like I know what I heard, what I want to do is make sense of it. The only explanation so far that makes sense is it was overcooked in a certain frequency region, hence the blanket making the difference.
I know these recordings well so am sure as I can be its not the recordings either
How can it be tonal balance be wrong if the covering of a blanket gets it sounding right?
Perhaps Anthony or someone can help me to understand what is going on here
Just out of interest what's the system John?
The tonal balance will change with different speaker positions & toe-in, so maybe some improvements can be gained from playing with speaker positioning. Just moving them a little closer together & toeing out more may well help!
The blanket will attenuate the high frequencies more than the mids & lows, so will change the tonal balance! With more presence from the mid-range & upper bass will give a perceived warmer sound & may well change the tone of the distorted guitars.
A better explanation of what it did to the distorted guitar sound may help too! Hard to quantify though because how is a distorted guitar supposed to sound? The guitar, strings, effects peddles, amps, mics will influence how that guitar produces its distorted sounds.
spendorman
23-05-2011, 21:05
This reminds me of my good friend that I was at university (early1970's) with. At hall, he had a pair of small Wharfdale speakers and across the tweeter he had a piece of paper. This was to reduce the harsh and excessive treble. It worked for him.
In later years the two of us had a small concern making loudspeaker systems. He was completely non technical, but good with the woodwork and once showed what to do was meticulous about assembly and wiring.
More from reading stuff than actual listening experience, including a bit of aural physchology, I would say that tonal imballances can represent themselves to the brain as enhancing or bluring 'resolution'. Many studio products around that increase percieved resolution by fiddling with frequency response and dynamics of certain frequency ranges..
Have a play with a good graphic equaliser and see if you can replicate it in your system (maybe a good studio EQ rather than the many naff hifi ones).
The problem with hearing other gear without measuring it to death, is that we first struggle to find the correct words and language to describe the difference and then on top, that physical experience may be verging on the intangible anyway .. We kind of know aurally what's different but not logically.
So we end up either liking it or not liking it and not knowing what we can do to change it.
I quite like Mark's explination to what is happening I shall suggest to my friend and pass back any changes to the sound if he goes for it
The problem with hearing other gear without measuring it to death, is that we first struggle to find the correct words and language to describe the difference and then on top, that physical experience may be verging on the intangible anyway .. We kind of know aurally what's different but not logically.
So we end up either liking it or not liking it and not knowing what we can do to change it.
So bloody true
It took me about 3 months to tune my speakers after the last rebuild. There is only so much that one can do my measuring, after that it’s down to listening and identifying any problems by ear.
Unfortunately, every change you make at one point often seems to require a change somewhere else to maintain a balance that the individual listener finds comfortable.
The assumption seems almost always that a flat response speaker is best. I don’t agree. Flat response is fine in the ideal room with well recorded material, but as pointed out above, one of the things that makes good VBR mp3’s listenable is generally their lack of very high frequency leaving the midrange (the frequencies we are most sensitive to) as normal.
The first option is to get the speaker position right. By that I mean finding the position where for most of the frequencies the sound is acceptable and then sticking to that position.
As Mark mentions an attenuator or L pad may be required for one or more drivers.
It’s probably easiest to fit L-pads at the back of the drive unit initially. Build a proper L-pad rather than just a resistor in series.
Keep the db drop small initially, maybe even only a couple of db.
If you can identify the frequency that is causing the problem and assuming its high enough, above 17kHz say, then a brick wall filter for anything above can work.
It’s also worth experimenting with capacitor types. Polypropylene caps are great for speed but some hi frequency problems can be cured by using a paper in oil type for example.
Also worth exploring is using a solid core wire internally for the high frequency unit.
It’s also worth trying an absorbing panel or deflector in direct line of the hi frequency unit
Last resort is to dope the Hi frequency unit. A lot depends on how that unit is built. Doping is reasonably effective for soft domes but it does mean dismantling the unit.
Finally I have to agree that too much resolution should never be a problem, cheap drivers and badly designed crossovers are.
Interesting topic. John's issue seems to be based around guitars being used with overdriven valve amps or a simulation thereof in the studio. Is this correct?
From what I know John you have more of a musician's ear than some of us. I can't know but I'm wondering whether you're listening mainly to how an instrument is played and less so to the harmonics and ambiance, which is often artificial on modern recordings.
For those of us more musically challenged (ie we can't play musical instruments), some of us may listen in a subtly different way, less critically of the musician/instrument with more focus on atmosphere and ambiance.
I wonder whether what you heard was at such a resolution that it laid bare modern recording techniques. I've banged on about this for a while now. A recording of a live gig has a far better chance of capturing ECC83s, ECC88s etc being overdriven than is possible in most recording studios where the effect mostly has to be faked (simulated). By throwing a veil (blanket) over the speakers there will have been various effects, some of which will kill the hi res you had been listening to.
I find that judging a system with electronic instruments a very hard thing to do as the recording studio maniluations are laid bare. Even though you know the recordings well; if you were hearing them at a higher res than you're used to, who knows whether what you heard was accurate.
I find it useful to judge accuracy with music featuring non-amplified instruments, eg some fairly full-on jazz. Vocals too.
I can't know what you experienced because I wasn't there and I'm not you. But I have sneaking suspicion you were hearing more of the recording than you really wanted to.
"My friend did an experment he put a balnket ove the speakers and suddenly the guitar sounded right I suddenly could hear a good distorted guitar. "
Well, in my opinion, if you have to put a blanket over the speakers to make them sound "right", then there is something "wrong" with the speakers.
But, I will add, the best, most real, sounding guitar reproduction I have ever heard was in my system when I was running horns, Valhalla cable, DCS digital and a 4 watt 45 SET stereo amp with silver/cobalt transformers.
Other amps in the same system were not even close to the realism on guitars, both electric and acoustic, that 45 SET achieved regularly, and not only on audiophile recordings but also on things like ACDC and Dire Straits, for instance.
So, imo, amplification matters quite a lot, too.
And so I would argue that the problem stated was not too much resolution, but a poorly balanced or simply malfunctioning system.
I do think getting distorted guitar right is hard I understand what a valve amp should sound like
A lot of what you describe is true Clive but not sure if it was modern recording techiniques in this case. Its hard to know I guess we all have our preferences and I want to respect that For me getting distorted guitar to sound right is pretty high on my listening requirements for my friend it is not
I feel embrashed to open up this debate now
Well, in my opinion, if you have to put a blanket over the speakers to make them sound "right", then there is something "wrong" with the speakers.
There is some information missing which I need to point out. John's friend has heard John's system and whilst he likes it, finds it lacking in resolution.
So here we have a situation where John prefers the sound on his friend's system with blanket but his friend does not at all agree and believes the sound at hi res is better and more faithful.
2 people, 2 views. We from this distance can't say who is right or indeed whether there is a right or wrong in the first place.
My point about amplified instruments was an attempt to point out that we can't know whether the sound is faithful. It might be realistic but it could be that 2 wrongs are making a right.
My friend likes my speakers in the context in my room I would not say that its lacking in Resolution but not quite has the same scale as his system I think he would desribe it really well balanced and could live with it
In the context of his set up this is not the case My drivers would be considered to be veiled in comparision and I to find this lacking a bit of info I am used to in my own system. As i said I wish I never open this up
All i wanted to do is understand what is happening
Oh well lesson learned best not to put such topics on forums
Not wanting to re-open this, more as a closing comment (from myself anyway, not necessarily others). There's a lot to how we individually listen and hear things. Maybe you have a particular sensitivity or highly developed acuity around guitar distortion. I know I have with sibilance, what I call natural sibilance is fine, as soon as I hear artificial sibilance I cringe, the track is doomed. Many others don't suffer this way. It's hard discussing these topics in words when what we need are sound samples to understand better what is being talked about.
What about the B&W DM4's? I reckon a better speaker than the BC1, but with the virtues of the same tweeters.
The black surround DM4 bass units do not seem suffer much at all with hardening.
Better bass (not too difficult with older BC1's :lol:), but more coloured midrange imo ;) They're still affordable though now BC1's are being snapped up by collectors...
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