USB Cables: for audiophiles or audiophools?

[Yoga]

Hello again :¬)

With the Burson HA-160D being USB, I was wondering if anyone here has had experience with the more expensive USB cables.

I grabbed one of these for the Caiman a while ago, after reading that it was of good quality:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Belkin-PRO-Hi-Speed-Device-Cable/dp/B000EOTDPK/

A lot of people in various forums highly recommend this:

http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/Cardas_Clear_USB_Audiophile_Cable_CAR-CLUSB

Considering digital is 1's and 0's - is this kind of thing necessary?

[Reid Malenfant]

Have a good read of this thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8720&highlight=usb+cable) :)

[roob]

It depends if the dac has its on 5v supply to the usb input, some of the more exotic usb cables have better screening of the 5v line carrying power from the computer usb port.
If yours dac does have its own then a cheaper cable will do.

[HighFidelityGuy]

Some people think they do make a difference, some people don't. I think it's quite hardware dependant to a degree, with different results between synchronous and async DACs. I think at the end of the day you just need to try some cables for your self and make your own decisions as the topic is massively subjective.

You really need to forget the whole "digital is just 1's and 0's" argument though as it's meaningless. Electrical digital signals are still fluctuating voltages just as an analogue signal is. The difference is in the way the signal is interpreted. Digital equipment see's around 0V as a 0 and above a particular voltage as a 1. If the cable is crap then the leading edges of the signal waves can get damaged which can lead the receiving device to interpret a 0 as a 1 or a 1 as a 0. This is where error correction comes in. The more error correction the receiving device has to do the more chance there is of it getting it wrong. You also increase the jitter. All USB cables should in theory conform to the USB standard but some will no doubt cause more errors than others. :)

I recently purchased a Wireworld Starlight USB cable to try with my as yet un-purchased Hiface Evo. So I'll be comparing it against a bunch of standard cables at some point but that won't be for a while. The reason I went for that cable is that I liked the way it separated the power wired from the signal wires which seemed like a good idea to me.

[Yoga]

Have a good read of this thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8720&highlight=usb+cable) :)

Thank you!


It depends if the dac has its on 5v supply to the usb input, some of the more exotic usb cables have better screening of the 5v line carrying power from the computer usb port.
If yours dac does have its own then a cheaper cable will do.

I can't find any information on it (not even in the 6 Moons review). For what it's worth, Burson make it clear they spent a lot of effort on the power side of things.


Some people think they do make a difference, some people don't. I think it's quite hardware dependant to a degree, with different results between synchronous and async DACs. I think at the end of the day you just need to try some cables for your self and make your own decisions as the topic is massively subjective.

You really need to forget the whole "digital is just 1's and 0's" argument though as it's meaningless. Electrical digital signals are still fluctuating voltages just as an analogue signal is. The difference is in the way the signal is interpreted. Digital equipment see's around 0V as a 0 and above a particular voltage as a 1. If the cable is crap then the leading edges of the signal waves can get damaged which can lead the receiving device to interpret a 0 as a 1 or a 1 as a 0. This is where error correction comes in. The more error correction the receiving device has to do the more chance there is of it getting it wrong. You also increase the jitter. All USB cables should in theory conform to the USB standard but some will no doubt cause more errors than others. :)

I recently purchased a Wireworld Starlight USB cable to try with my as yet un-purchased Hiface Evo. So I'll be comparing it against a bunch of standard cables at some point but that won't be for a while. The reason I went for that cable is that I liked the way it separated the power wired from the signal wires which seemed like a good idea to me.

Thanks. I might grab one of those instead of the Cardas.

Once the unit has burned in, I may grab an audiophile USB cable and do some testing. Only way!

[roob]

Might be worth dropping Burson an email and ask if the usb input is self powered or bus powered from the pc.
If its the latter then a cable which has the power line well isolated could be a better bet.

[Yoga]

Might be worth dropping Burson an email and ask if the usb input is self powered or bus powered from the pc.
If its the latter then a cable which has the power line well isolated could be a better bet.

Perfect, thanks dude.

Edit: Dave, this cable gets very good reviews on many forums, and is half the price.

http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=2800&customer_id=PAA1889058311127VFLXGWFQIZTGDFSV

Review: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Kimber-Kable-Kimber-USB-Review

Worth a pop :¬)

[HighFidelityGuy]

Yeah, I fancy trying the Russ Andrew's and the Cardas. I think Furutech do a decent looking one too which might be worth a try. I think I'll try a different one every few months and see which seems to match the best. Like you say, it's the only way. :)

I had to laugh at a Wireworld press release I saw the other day that announced two new USB cables they've released. I can't remember the exact price but I'm sure at least one was over £500. :eek: I'll spend a fair amount on cables if they make an improvement but that to me is a bit much to say the least. :rolleyes:

Let us know how you get on with any USB cables you try. :)

[Yoga]

Yeah, I fancy trying the Russ Andrew's and the Cardas. I think Furutech do a decent looking one too which might be worth a try. I think I'll try a different one every few months and see which seems to match the best. Like you say, it's the only way. :)

I had to laugh at a Wireworld press release I saw the other day that announced two new USB cables they've released. I can't remember the exact price but I'm sure at least one was over £500. :eek: I'll spend a fair amount on cables if they make an improvement but that to me is a bit much to say the least. :rolleyes:

Let us know how you get on with any USB cables you try. :)

Goodness, with digital cables, the law of diminishing returns is not to be scoffed at. As long as the low/high volts that represent the 0's and 1's are going through cleanly, £50 or £500 shouldn't make a difference. Perhaps even £5, if the cable is built well (from what I've read in the last 2 hours).

Saying that, as with yourself, I like the idea of the shielded Starlight. Need to order the 160D first though! :¬)

[aquapiranha]

I can't believe what I read on these forums sometimes. When USB was conceived, the associated industries conducted trials and tests to ensure that the standards used produced a cable able to do the job of moving digital signals (so no chance of degradation, either on or off) from one component to another. For years, the computer industry has been more than satisfied with this standard, only recently changing the format to increase the transfer speeds between peripherals. Why now after computer audio has found it's way into the audio arena do audiofool companies jump on the bandwagon and try to sell 'improved' USB cables to the needy and gullible? The answer is because they know there are those that will a) believe anything they are told, b) can be 'blinded with non-science and 'testimonials' from these manufacturers, c) have the disposable income to buy them.

Dave said..

'You really need to forget the whole "digital is just 1's and 0's" argument though as it's meaningless. Electrical digital signals are still fluctuating voltages just as an analogue signal is. The difference is in the way the signal is interpreted. Digital equipment see's around 0V as a 0 and above a particular voltage as a 1. If the cable is crap then the leading edges of the signal waves can get damaged which can lead the receiving device to interpret a 0 as a 1 or a 1 as a 0. This is where error correction comes in. The more error correction the receiving device has to do the more chance there is of it getting it wrong. You also increase the jitter. All USB cables should in theory conform to the USB standard but some will no doubt cause more errors than others.'

I would like to see the independent, ie, not done by cable makers or interested parties (such as so called 'audio reviewers') to back this up, If a cable meets the spec, it will work- no amount of over engineerind, exotic materials etc will 'improve' the performance, it works or it doesn't.

Many times we have the 'but the offer a money back guarantee' brigade, but everyone knows that the majority of people who order things this way are either too lazy or too embarrassed to return things, you only have to see QVC et al to see that.

It only took one well known crack pot audio 'reviewer' to announce that they were the next best thing and suddenly we are all talking about them, and therefore sales increase.

It is your money folks, and your decision at the end of the day, but I suggest you think hard about whether you can honestly justify this kind of folly.

Recently, one so called enlightened individual has accused me of attempting to set myself up as a 'consumer champion' but I would dispute that preferring instead to see myself as having common sense, and a healthy curiosity when it comes to the marketing of this type of rubbish in particular.

[WAD62]

For my tuppencewoth...

The whole USB audio playback malarkey is a bit if a can of worms IMHO

Firstly there's getting the right USB audio drivers, then there's the question of whether the DAC is having a synchronous or asynchronous conversation with the computer (depends on the DAC architecture), add to that whether or not it's being powered via the USB cable, and for good measure there's the question of galvanic isolation from the computer.

If it were just being used to perform a file transfer operation then a standard USB compliant cable would be fine...but it's not just an FTP is it ;)

[StanleyB]

And at the end of all of that you end up with a playback quality that is not an improvement over optical or coax.

[WAD62]

And at the end of all of that you end up with a playback quality that is not an improvement over optical or coax.

+1

I think that there's an opportunity/requirement for the computer industry to come up with a more appropriate interface/architecture for digital audio playback. Using the current USB configuration is a bit of a square peg in a round hole IMHO. :)

[Yoga]

+1

I think that there's an opportunity/requirement for the computer industry to come up with a more appropriate interface/architecture for digital audio playback. Using the current USB configuration is a bit of a square peg in a round hole IMHO. :)

Thunderbolt will be it I would imagine :¬)

[Welder]

Will wrote;

“The whole USB audio playback malarkey is a bit if a can of worms IMHO”

I have to agree with this. The problem is, every computer I’ve come across has USB, while not all have SPDIF and/or optical.

I don’t believe there is a problem with data transfer via USB but there do seem to be power issues and bandwidth issues, not just for audio.
I use what would be considered by some to be a cheap USB cable, but it does meet USB standard which some of the more esoteric ones don’t.

Steve wrote;

"It only took one well known crack pot audio 'reviewer' to announce that they were the next best thing and suddenly we are all talking about them, and therefore sales increase."

Unfortunately this doesn’t just apply to USB cables. There are a great many examples in audio where science says no, but reviewers, forum contributors etc say yes.
By this yardstick an awful lot of the subjective “better thans” would get ruled out as nonsense.

The answer of course is to shoot all the Hi Fi salesmen, burn all the Hi Fi mags, remove any claim on a forum or internet site that can’t be scientifically proven and send all the audiophiles to a little island somewhere.

I cant see any of the above happening in the near future so meanwhile, exercise a bit of common sense.



I guess that’s this forum finished then ;)

[Yoga]

I guess that’s this forum finished then ;)

:lolsign:

Dave: found another. This one is also separated, but for under half the cost of the Starlight.

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/7511

Excuse the large picture.

http://www.superfi.co.uk/images/Wireworld-Ultraviolet-USB-crossec.jpg

[WAD62]

send all the audiophiles to a little island somewhere.

I guess that’s this forum finished then ;)

...do we get to pick the island? :)

[Welder]

"...do we get to pick the island? :)"

Certainly not!


Somewhere off Italy looks favorite atm………..mind you it could be off Wales in which case I’m moving to mp3.

[WAD62]

mind you it could be off Wales in which case I’m moving to mp3.

...spotify!!! :)

[aquapiranha]

Will wrote;


The answer of course is to shoot all the Hi Fi salesmen, burn all the Hi Fi mags, remove any claim on a forum or internet site that can’t be scientifically proven and send all the audiophiles to a little island somewhere.

I cant see any of the above happening in the near future so meanwhile, exercise a bit of common sense.


That would be a start John! :lol: Common sense is exactly the kind of approach I am taking here.

There was a reviewer for a magazine a couple of years ago who, while reviewing say an amplifier, would bang on and on about the cables he was using in the review - always the same brand - and always mentioned in his reviews, with comments about how 'good' he thought they were. It transpires that his wife had been working for the cable supplier for some time, and he subsequently left the magazine and went to work for...can you guess??

My point is if you want to believe everything you read, then go ahead but I personally approach things with more caution. The bloke who went on about the so called audiophile usb cable on his blog withdrew the ability to leave comments when he discovered that making wild and completely untrue, unproven claims for it did not go unchallenged by less gullible readers. I have had a quick look for the article but can't find it, I will keep trying.

I stopped buying audio magazines many years ago when it became increasingly apparent that they had become little more than advertorials for the products they were 'reviewing' or their distributors. You only have to look at the adverts in the mags to see this.

:)

[Toby]

I have to admit that while there may be some techy reason beyond my simple understanding of this for a better quality USB cable I do wonder if there would be any real audible differences, I dont see a reason to spend a huge amount on a USB cable, but also its better to avoid the really cheap ones, finding a middle of the road one should prove just as well as an expensive one especially since no audio is used with the cable.

I think many of these companies cash in on the whole market, making wild claims that cannot be proven or disproven, especially with cables, if there were any differences id also question whether its a placebo effect, your subconcious says it must be better because of the expensive cable which makes you believe there is a subtle difference, but I think the only real way to tell for sure would be if you could wire both cables up somehow & quickly flick between the two, as the time taken to unplug & plug in another cable you cant really remember what the previous one sounded like.

Im very skeptical when it comes to things like this, I think the whole quality cable thing which does make a valid point in things like speaker wire & interconnects has just spilled over into cables which dont benefit from all this OFC cabling or silver litz wire & things like that, unless you buy a really cruddy one for less than 99p im quite sure one costing a few hundred pounds would sound identical, the Cardas cable you mention at £99 says it optimises the data stream, again something that cant be proven & backed up by any techy data, also once it goes into the computer end or indeed the Burson who knows what the quality of those are like, especially the computer end with the motherboard, im sure its USB is only a very basic affair using the cheapest production methods & parts, certainly not optimised for anything in the audio world.

[colinB]

I just bought a Belkin usb a-b cable from e bay for £1.50. The company sent me 2 by mistake. I couldnt resist hacking one open. It had a braided shield and alumninium lap. For a non power usb i dont think you could engineer it any more.

[Toby]

I think the Belkin ones are plenty good enough, I bet if you cut up that £99 one it would be similar, I cant imagine how it can be much different.

[Yoga]

I think the Belkin ones are plenty good enough, I bet if you cut up that £99 one it would be similar, I cant imagine how it can be much different.

Yeah I have one of those upon reading a recommendation here. Pro series I think, only cost a couple of quid :¬)

Someone made a very good point; regardless of the quality of you USB cable (£5 or £500), you can bet that the USB port on your PC will not be of 'audiophile' quality :¬)

[Krisbee]

Someone made a very good point; regardless of the quality of you USB cable (£5 or £500), you can bet that the USB port on your PC will not be of 'audiophile' quality :¬)

Apart form the difficulty of coming to an agreed definiton of "audiophile quality" , there's a lot of makers/designers who would disagree that USB audio is somehow inherently inferior.

For example, it would be interesting to have a (straw) poll of Bereford DAC users who are happy to use the USB input, or can even detect any difference between say the optical input and USB input when using a PC as the source.

While I agree USB audio is not without its worms, neither is S/PDIF optical or coax. USB audio is still in state of flux, partly due to the "asynch" fashion but also as USB audio class 2 products evolve. As always, there are good and not so good implementations. For the "audiophile" punter the question is how to identify the best implementations.

[Ammonite Audio]

My experiments so far with USB audio have been a mix of amazingly good and pretty average sound quality, which is down to differences between PCs, since the same HiFace asynchronous USB converters and software have been used in each case. So, there are significant factors other than the cable to get worked up over. That said, at one Computer Audio bake-off, I have heard clear differences (and improvements) when switching from one USB cable to another, so cables can make a difference, for whatever reason. I chose to buy the Kimber USB cable because it is not obscenely expensive and it was recommended here on AoS; I'm sure that in a perfectly implemented USB chain, a good quality Belkin would perhaps be as good, but whose computer/DAC has a perfectly engineered USB interface with no powerline noise?

Since Stanley raised the subject of asynchronous USB, I shall state that my experience with the M2Tech HiFace and HiFace Evo asynchronous USB converters, feeding digits to my Lyngdorf digital amp at anything from 16bit/44.1kHz to 24bit/192kHz, is that the results in terms of sound quality and musical satisfaction completely humiliate what I have heard from the Caiman, when fed USB from my own PC. I shall temper that statement by stating that my exposure to the Caiman was rather brief and in someone else's (rather good) system, but based on what I heard I do not hesitate in clinging to the belief that asynchronous USB is the way to go. Whether well-implemented asynchronous USB takes away some of the potential variables between cables is something for experts to discuss - I really don't know the answer to that.

[goraman]

I Back up my files to a USB 2.0 1.5 T bite external HD.
It came with a skinny crappy cheap looking USB 1.5 cable 1 meter long.
I bought Monsters very best USB cable claiming faster transfer speeds in 1/2 meter. 800mbps.

Being not quite right I timed my Itunes transfer using both cables and if there was a difference it was with in a second or two.
I think most of the time it depends on the equipments hard drive speed and other factors more so than the cable it's self.
We are talking 135 gig file. My Ext. hard drive 7200 RPM transfers at 12 mbps. so how will an 800mbps cable make any difference?

Read .4 and .5 http://www.everythingusb.com/usb2/faq.htm#2


The cable I used. 800mbps.

http://www.staples.com/Monster-Digital-Life-High-Performance-Micro-USB-High-Speed-1.5-ft./product_912402?cm_mmc=Pricegrabber-_-Shopping-_-Technology%3ECables_%26_Hubs-_-912402-DL_USB_HSMI-1.5&cid=CSE:Pricegrabber:Technology:Cables_%26_Hubs:91 2402:DL_USB_HSMI-1.5