Bespoke Open Baffle Service ?

[John]

As you all know I have a pair of Hawthorne Duet Open Baffles, over the last year and half I have made a few mods that have taken the the speakers further.

Yesterday Howard came round and heard them and was pretty impressed by them, he even suggested they should be marketed.

Personally I think the market for Open Baffles is extremly limited I think most people would rather a more traditional speaker even though you have to spend crazy money to achieve what open baffles can do.

My friend Vic of Trans Fi could eaisly make these for people if there was an interest but guess due to small demand this would be a bespoke service.

There are several options

Solo Either 10" or 15" drivers. 10" drivers would suit smaller rooms. The drivers are full range and also come on two versions Silver Iris and Sterlings
The Sterlings are a lot more expensive but will give you more detail and a bit more of a full range response. For a lot of music this would be totally acceptable with either driver.

Duet This would add a 10" or 15" bass drivers This would add a lot more bass, the bass is clean and extended. This is the set up I use. The bass driver would need to be powered by a seperate sub or in my case two subs as some of the bass region is in Stereo and I tend to be a bit OTT.

Trio This uses two bass drivers and gives serious slam that also sounding great you will truly feel in your stomach However you need a large room to do them justice.

I do not mind helping anyone doing a DIY build I can only recommend dealing with Darrel at Hawthorne, his customer service is top notch.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

What sort of cash is involved in the various options John

[John]

It really would be quite varied Hamish at this stage just working out if there is even a small market
A Solo 10 to 15" Silver Iris I would hope under a £1000 but this would eaisly outperfom speakers costing 3 to 5 times that price
It really will depend on what approach someone wants to go down The wood would be 40mm thick to give a very solid construction
Each one would be a bespoke item so have a bespoke price
To be honest I am not even sure if there is a market for this as most people are quite traditional

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Does my choice of speakers seem traditional? ;)

Just weighing up options for loft system see ... Have my eye on some interesting speaks on eBay at the mo mind... ... And a grand is WAY out of my budget!

[John]

well u could do it cheaper if you were to DIY Hamish I help with advice
Nope your speakers are not traditional Hamish but a bit more than mine Lol

[Neil McCauley]

John is correct. I am very impressed by the overall sound he achieves. Impossible to separate the sound of his speakers from the entire system. As an entire system though - magnificent. I looked at the speakers - well the drivers actually and thought "Yeah, right, flab." Not a bit of it though. Looks can be very deceiving! Silly me. Just a few seconds on unfamiliar material off J's laptop convinced me. No tedious long-term A/B testing need. Listeners will either 'get it' right away or not at all. It's so un hi-fi like as to be astonishing.

Terrific attack, well controlled but not over-damped. One of the most enjoyable systems across the entire frequency spectrum I've ever heard in the UK. Truly.

The open sound was very reminiscent of my own Vandersteen 2c-Signatures BUT with more 'clout' at low SPLs. I really believe John's onto something with this approach.

Okay yes, WAF in minus figures. But then again, not everyone has a wife or live-in partner!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Yeah that's where my issue would have been Howard ... I have had considerable FAF (fiancée acceptance factor) problems ...
The loft is a different matter though!

So John ... In terms of raw materials ... Should I suddenly be capable of diy ... What might somthing similar set me back ...
Howards comments are somewhat encouraging!

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'd be looking for somthing I could power with my valves!!

[Spur07]

I've heard those Hawthornes in John's system and they are superb. Excellent value for money imo, you'd have to pay serious money to get close with more 'established' brands.

FWIW, on my second visit John demonstrated the bass drivers to me by phasing them in and out again during playback and personally I struggled to hear any difference. The effect was subtle but then my ears aren't as well tuned as Johns. At the end of the day, I could easily live with those 15" full range drivers alone in a simple baffle - plenty of bass for me. That would drop the cost even more.

[John]

well if it was my money Hamish I go for the 15" silver Iris, per driver they $160 each this includes cross over.
Remember you importing from the USA so you need to add postage and import duty and vat Lol
Then you need to add baffles and get cut to size. I would use 40mm MDF
Theres a lot you can do to the driver thats really simple that takes its performance a lot further
Hamish these should outperform your adams in the right set up
I was going to intially get some big ATC actives there is not a day I regret going down this path. Also powering them with something like a Bantam Gold would be very good indeed So possible to put a very good inexpensive system together
But they love valve amps Hamish and this would be the best way to hear them

[John]

I've heard those Hawthornes in John's system and they are superb. Excellent value for money imo, you'd have to pay serious money to get close with more 'established' brands.

FWIW, on my second visit John demonstrated the bass drivers to me by phasing them in and out again during playback and personally I struggled to hear any difference. The effect was subtle but then my ears aren't as well tuned as Johns. At the end of the day, I could easily live with those 15" full range drivers alone in a simple baffle - plenty of bass for me. That would drop the cost even more.

Paul the performance has improved since then, upgrading the xover and removing the cap on the tweeter so it goes dipole has improved detail and soundstage
The system really rocks but put something subtle on it do that too

[Dominic Harper]

Just to add my two peneth worth, If anyone is interested, I can custom make slate baffles for the Hawthornes.
I have a pair of the 10" duets and plate amp for the bass drivers. Coax's are driven by a 10 watt EL34B SE tube amp.
Surprisingly these speakers are very wife friendly, my other half loves em!
Plus they sound both fantastic with music and as front speakers in a cinema setup.

[John]

Yes the 10" would be quite wife friendly with I guess a bit less scale but perhaps a bit more intimate than the 15" Just depends what you want
I can only imagine what slate would be like, its very inert so should sound really good with this type of driver. There are a few other tricks with the driver but perhaps for another time

[John]

Yes the 10" drivers would make for very amazing cinema system I seen a few people have done this in Amercia and Vic has a similar type set up in his room. Yet to hear what it ne like but I imagine world class

[Cliff]

The OB listening experience is seriously addictive when done well.
My speakers are semi-ob, but I get enough of the experience to really appreciate and enjoy it.
Although mine don't plumb the depths, what bass I do get leads me to believe that OB bass is the most natural or realistic it can get.
I am sure your big speakers test/prove that theory even more.
I think it would be very difficult to go back to boxes with ports or vents.;)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

well this is pickling ... ive got my eye on some speakers else where as i said that could come to me for sensible money ... this sounds like a nice idea but the £200 for the drivers alone is more than i was looking at spending, but not so far out of the realms of sensible money that its not an attractive option ...
i guess i just have to remember that this is a second system ... and i have my whole life to buy more expensive options should i choose to down the line ... still ... hugely tempting!

[John]

Yes Hamish you have to remember this will likely out perform your main speaker system
Actually considering the performance level its amazing value but for what you looking for I think you be doing the drivers a injustice

[John]

The OB listening experience is seriously addictive when done well.
My speakers are semi-ob, but I get enough of the experience to really appreciate and enjoy it.
Although mine don't plumb the depths, what bass I do get leads me to believe that OB bass is the most natural or realistic it can get.
I am sure your big speakers test/prove that theory even more.
I think it would be very difficult to go back to boxes with ports or vents.;)

I love OB bass as you said very reastic and natural (other bass designs may go down lower but not heard the same sense of enjoyment I get from OB bass yet . The Augee can run true dipole from what I heard this makes a huge difference, seems that even with OB adding a semi box adds coluration, but a lot of OB bass drivers need some sort of box arrangement to work but there are a few other bass drivers costing a lot more that are even better

http://www.aespeakers.com/news.php?start=0&news_id=24

[Ali Tait]

Just to add my two peneth worth, If anyone is interested, I can custom make slate baffles for the Hawthornes.
I have a pair of the 10" duets and plate amp for the bass drivers. Coax's are driven by a 10 watt EL34B SE tube amp.
Surprisingly these speakers are very wife friendly, my other half loves em!
Plus they sound both fantastic with music and as front speakers in a cinema setup.

Any chance of some pics? How much?

Ta.

[Welder]

I think you should go for it John. As a full time business I think you’re right, the demand isn’t there; people tend to like nice looking plug and play boxes :(

I used to build a pair of speakers a year on average, not always Domestic Hi Fi and while it didn’t make me a regular income, a few hundred quid every now and then for doing something you enjoy is always good.
What is lacking is a setup service which would I think be necessary for OBs to get the best out of them. Maybe source suitable amps and do the complete package.

[John]

Hi John
Thanks for the encouragement but so far do not really see there is an interest in this, its a shame cost to performance I can see no better route
I like the idea of the complete package
I imagine a Bantam gold or Hilly would sound great the Mini T great for acoustic music but not enough omphh for more demanding pieces
Valve amps sound great and guess it will depend what you want my amp has bags of power so just easy to drive
I guess if people are interested they will contact me
Best to stay away from High powered transitors as you have to play at really crazy volume to get the best out of the speakers due to the efficency and how solid state seems to perform better when being driven, either valve or class d is better option
I be more than willing to offer advice to anyone doing a DIY build I totally recommend this approach
I really think quite possible to put a very classy high end system for not major bucks if going down the class d route

[aquapiranha]

I know how good OB's can be, having built some myself. I can only think of one commercial
design off the top of my head and that is the Jamo R909. I would have to say that I doubt there would be a viable market unless there were enough people on the forums who would want them Good luck whatever you decide.

[John]

I think no real market just DIY community Its a real shame that most people will not even consider this let alone hear a good pair
There are a few manafactures in Amercia: Emerald, Hawthornes and Bastanis in Italy plus a few others I seen most do DIY as well

[aquapiranha]

I think no real market just DIY community Its a real shame that most people will not even consider this let alone hear a good pair
There are a few manafactures in Amercia: Emerald, Hawthornes and Bastanis in Italy plus a few others I seen most do DIY as well

Yes, I forgot about those! I think one problem is that those that would consider such a design will also be those who will most likely build the speakers themselves, I know how good OB speakers can be, and as you say it really is a shame that not many get to hear them.

[Ali Tait]

Have to agree John, ob's are by far the best bang for your buck. I think the size puts a lot of people off though.

[John]

Yes size is going to put most people off but I think the 10" drivers would be acceptable for a lot of people

[Ali Tait]

Yes, agreed, especially in a baffle like yours.

[Welder]

I’ve got a few questions John :eyebrows:

Did you hear the 10” units and if so did you hear a noticeable difference between say a single stereo pair of 10” and the same of 15”?

What is the lowest frequency you’ve measured (?) at 1 metre with a twin driver arrangement?

At what frequency does the crossover work at?

Have you heard a similar driver array in a partial baffle and what benefits if any do you find with your no baffle steel chassis construction.

How much does a double driver array with say a D or T class per driver work out at?

[John]

Lol
I link you to Darrel site to frequency x over of drivers and measurements
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/catalogs/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=1
I think Clive has measured the Augee bass drivers I have mine cutting off around 25 on my sub
As you know John I am probarly the least measurement guy here all I can say is come round here for yourself if you like you like if not at least we had a chat and beer Lol
I heard quite a few open Baffle arrangements So in my view the Bastanis have more detail but bass is not as good even with 18" drivers due to the construction, this is just my view but I heard this a few times
I think a good class D amp is a good match I only heard the Mini T in my system and it was excellent with fast acoustic music but not enough grunt for me. From what Ali is saying I would imagine the Bantanm to be a better match. In my view this would be a cheap way into a very high quality system and perhaps a Caiman
I think good ridigity is important with the baffle I started off with 3/4" ply and moving to 40mm MDF gave a lot more body, detail, depth and bass, I started to hear mid bass keyboards I never knew existed.
I have yet to hear the 10" some people seem to perfer them but think its a case of horses for courses, from what I gather a very similar sound perhaps more intimate but less scale.
The drivers cost 160 dollars each including x over I think its very reasonable (but need to add tax vat and postage). There are other routes if you wish to explore such as the Bastanis and B200 which is a nice driver that a lot of people like and Sabas, theres a few others but we now getting serious money. I did not really like the Sabas for the music i listen to but really fast speakers just a bit neasly in the treble/mid on rock
Hope that helps

[Reid Malenfant]

Don't mess about if you need to move air in a OB (http://www.precision-devices.com/ShowDetails.asp?id=17) :)

[John]

Impressive drivers Mark

[John]

This quote from Dick Olsher of enjoy the music kind of sums up what I am hearing that I really like in terms of bass
“It seems to me that many listeners confuse bass weight with bass extension and opt for a subwoofer when bass weight is lacking. The problem typically lies in the upper bass, the octave from 120Hz to 240Hz where much of an orchestra's foundation and acoustic power resides. This is the octave that box woofers have a hard time coping with, basically managing to sound boxy through this range. In contrast, the Augie managed to shine here, elucidating instrumental fundamentals with consummate clarity and 3D realism".
But this also reflects where a lot of my music I listen to have enegry flowing through I think for deep electronic bass you have to choose another route If you want kick drums and the abilty to hear complex bass then this will do that well too

[Ali Tait]

Lol
I link you to Darrel site to frequency x over of drivers and measurements
http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/catalogs/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=1
I think Clive has measured the Augee bass drivers I have mine cutting off around 25 on my sub
As you know John I am probarly the least measurement guy here all I can say is come round here for yourself if you like you like if not at least we had a chat and beer Lol
I heard quite a few open Baffle arrangements So in my view the Bastanis have more detail but bass is not as good even with 18" drivers due to the construction, this is just my view but I heard this a few times
I think a good class D amp is a good match I only heard the Mini T in my system and it was excellent with fast acoustic music but not enough grunt for me. From what Ali is saying I would imagine the Bantanm to be a better match. In my view this would be a cheap way into a very high quality system and perhaps a Caiman
I think good ridigity is important with the baffle I started off with 3/4" ply and moving to 40mm MDF gave a lot more body, detail, depth and bass, I started to hear mid bass keyboards I never knew existed.
I have yet to hear the 10" some people seem to perfer them but think its a case of horses for courses, from what I gather a very similar sound perhaps more intimate but less scale.
The drivers cost 160 dollars each including x over I think its very reasonable (but need to add tax vat and postage). There are other routes if you wish to explore such as the Bastanis and B200 which is a nice driver that a lot of people like and Sabas, theres a few others but we now getting serious money. I did not really like the Sabas for the music i listen to but really fast speakers just a bit neasly in the treble/mid on rock
Hope that helps

Yes, I have to say the B200 is a very nice driver. You'd never think an 8 inch fullrange driver wouldn't need a tweeter to hit the highs, but it manages very well on it's own, especially with some Planet10 phase plugs to smooth things out a little. A fantastic driver for the money.