Caiman connections

[Mike g]

Hello

Just bought a caiman second hand and seller threw in a cheapie optical cable. Caiman has 1x optical and 2x coax plus a USB input. Primary transport/source will be my sonos box. So on the basis that I want to get a better cable to the dac, which is better to go for- optical or coax? And once decided who is best to buy it from- not looking to spend that much but want good quality so thinking about flashback, Mark grant or one of stan's own.

Will also get a coax and or an optical for my Sony blu ray player and my sky hd box which sits about 4m away and which sit on same stand. Will use the blu ray for CDs very occasionally but think using the caiman for tv audio will enhance the film/tv experience.

Cheers

Mike

Ps next thing I will look at is a psu

Pps currently music stored on a nas which has been ripped to iTunes using apple lossless. Should i re-rip these using a different format. This seems a daunting task...

[Reid Malenfant]

Coaxial is best, see if you can find some Belkin 75ohm AV cable on fleabay, it might be under digital or video or component video. You just need the one cable ;)

Can't argue with Mark Grant cables though, i do use quite a few myself :eyebrows: However at the ludicrous prices of the Belkin stuff you should be able to find a bargain :)

[CanDAC]

Having had experience with both on my Caiman, go with coax. There was a noticable inmprovement in sharpness and detail.

[MartinT]

Coax if you can, althought the optical does an impressive job from my Sky HD box.

[Mike g]

I have some of this left over from a tv cabling job I did in the house

http://www.screwfix.com/p/high-quality-coaxial-cable-rg6-25m/35148

Will it work? And if so what plugs will i need and the problem- will they need to be soldered on?

[Werner Berghofer]

Should i re-rip these using a different format.

No need for doing this. Apple lossless is a very good choice.

[Reid Malenfant]

Yes that cable will work, should do a good job to :) Unfortunately it'd need to be soldered to suitable phono plugs :rolleyes:

[Rare Bird]

Belden 1694a/Canare based Coax, great VFM..

[Mike g]

Clearly I am going to need to bite the bullet and learn how to solder...

[Yoga]

No need for doing this. Apple lossless is a very good choice.

Agreed, ALAC is a great choice; lossless when played, compressed as a flat file.

[Mike g]

So supplementary stupid question...I have a pair of atlas equator cables that I have been using for analogue duties. But they seem to have the same properties as digital cables (75 ohms) as per:

http://www.hificables.co.uk/11727/Atlas-Equator-MkII-Interconnect.html

Can I just use one of these for coax duties?

[Alex_UK]

So supplementary stupid question...I have a pair of atlas equator cables that I have been using for analogue duties. But they seem to have the same properties as digital cables (75 ohms) as per:

http://www.hificables.co.uk/11727/Atlas-Equator-MkII-Interconnect.html

Can I just use one of these for coax duties?

You can certainly try - you'll know if it sounds ok or not - certainly shouldn't do any harm, and if it is 75 ohms then may well sound fine. :)

[Stratmangler]

I'm very happy using the optical output from a Panasonic TX-L32D28BSA.
Currently have a Sky+ box connected to one of the Scart inputs, although that will be changed for a Sky+ HD box when it arrives, which will be connected via HMDI.
As and when a BluRay player is added it will also be connected via HDMI.
Son has his X-Box connected via HDMI, and a Wii connected via S-Video too.

The TV is acting as the hub for everything connected to it, and the link to my Caiman is via Toslink, which is one of the Nikkai 5m ones from Maplin.

I'm more than happy with the sound quality.
The games consoles sound excellent via the stereo too :cool:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Clearly I am going to need to bite the bullet and learn how to solder...

You can probably get the cable that Mark refers to above for less than the price of a reel of solder!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BELKIN-PURE-AV-COMPOSITE-VIDEO-CABLE-/330561641692?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item4cf7025cdc
......for example.

And don't be fooled into thinking that low price means low quality here - these are serious cables as many of us will testify.

[Mike g]

So all sort of connected up...also added a gator board which brings much greater detail.

Using the atlas equator from Sonos to dac good weight and depth to sound

Using 2 atlas equators with a connector to make them long enough between blu ray player and dac, better movie rumble etc and generally better sound- going to get a belkein long enough between the 2.

Using a maplins nikkai between sky hd box and dac-'sounds great. Much more open and airy. Making me consider a good optical between Sonos and dac.

[dave2010]

Clearly I am going to need to bite the bullet and learn how to solder...
If you've not done it yet you might pick up solder and an iron cheaply at Lidl.
Maybe you're joking though.:)

Our Lidl currently has soldering kit, and it seems considerably cheaper than Maplin, where I paid around £6 for a roll of solder recently. Lidl's was not quite £3.

[Mike g]

Cheers Dave. There is a lidl 5 mins from my house so will check it out.

[audionewbi]

I was wondering why is the caiman USB out is restricted to 16/48? I dont quiet understand the difference between coaxial out and USB out, aren't they both digital?

[MartinT]

You mean USB in? I believe it's because the USB interface is 1.1 spec.

[audionewbi]

You mean USB in? I believe it's because the USB interface is 1.1 spec.

I think it is because Stan uses a synch USB in instead of async. So far I have read best thing to do is use coaxial in instead of anything else.
By the look of it I have to migrate my music back to my PC as I have no optical/coaxial connection and I have spend a quiet a few dollars on 24/96 files all so I can compare it with regular 16/41 rebook FLAC :-( Seem like I have to buy a USB to SPDIF convertor which is able to do 24/96, it is not cheap!

[Stratmangler]

I think it is because Stan uses a synch USB in instead of async. So far I have read best thing to do is use coaxial in instead of anything else.
By the look of it I have to migrate my music back to my PC as I have no optical/coaxial connection and I have spend a quiet a few dollars on 24/96 files all so I can compare it with regular 16/41 rebook FLAC :-( Seem like I have to buy a USB to SPDIF convertor which is able to do 24/96, it is not cheap!

It's got nothing to do with synch USB, and everything to do with NOT having to use proprietary drivers in order to get the Caiman to connect to a computer.

[audionewbi]

It's got nothing to do with synch USB, and everything to do with NOT having to use proprietary drivers in order to get the Caiman to connect to a computer.ve
does this mean than it is possible to access the 24/96 if one is able to play around with windows software? I dont quiet understand what do you mean by "proprietary drivers". Or does this mean that Stans DAC are such that they dont require any software installation right?

[Stratmangler]

ve
does this mean than it is possible to access the 24/96 if one is able to play around with windows software?

What it means is that you don't have to instal any drivers to use the Caiman, as the drivers are already included with the OS.

It also means that the connection to the Caiman via USB is going to be 16/48 max.


I dont quiet understand what do you mean by "proprietary drivers".

What's meant is that something won't run without installing the drivers, and those drivers in turn will only permit control of a specific piece of hardware.

The Caiman does not require proprietary drivers, and there are non written for it.

[audionewbi]

thank you

[slate]

By the look of it I have to migrate my music back to my PC as I have no optical/coaxial connection

This might not relate to your situation, but actually many laptops do have an integrated optical connector inside their headphone connector; a converter is needed... like this http://www.beresford.me/PP/32E5mm_TOSLINK_adapter.html

[audionewbi]

This might not relate to your situation, but actually many laptops do have an integrated optical connector inside their headphone connector; a converter is needed... like this http://www.beresford.me/PP/32E5mm_TOSLINK_adapter.html

Thanks, but I doubt my laptop supports that, I have a Thoshba Qosmio F60

[audionewbi]

Playing Jazzia sung by Aziza Mustafa using HFI 780 it is heaven! It is not even flac, it is a crappy 128 file as I wanted to see how it compares to flac!

However I do think a little more gain would have being great for the k702. Got to figure out what to do. Still a GREAT DAC

[dave2010]

Thanks, but I doubt my laptop supports that, I have a Thoshba Qosmio F60Should have bought an iBook or an iMac! Actually I'm not sure about iBooks, but the iMacs have the optical connection within the headphone outlet.

There are add-on gadgets which will provide an optical output. if we wait a while I'm sure others will remind us about these. i think there's one which outputs to USB then converts to a standard optical signal. I found this one which I've not seen before - don't know if it's any good - http://www.firestone-audio.eu/shop/products/allproductslisted/bravo.php seems a bit pricey.

There are a few others. I heard good things about the M2Tech Hiface -
http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface.html Not sure about the current price, but I think it may be under £100.

There are also some sound cards which have an optical output - though I don't know how well they work, or whether they are reasonable quality. I have an old SoundBlaster external card which should do this, but I've not been too successful with the optical in/out, and in any case the sound quality is not as good as the DAC I normally use (Caiman). You could try ebay - see for example - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250826247433#ht_2135wt_922 Mine is an MP3+ Soundblaster card - though I can only run this from my PC as I can't find the drivers to run from my laptop.

[StanleyB]

Thanks, but I doubt my laptop supports that, I have a Thoshba Qosmio F60
If you have an Express card slot at the side of your laptop (check the specs. It could be express card or PCMCIA), I got an X-FI optical for sale that would solve the problem.

[dave2010]

Cheers Dave. There is a lidl 5 mins from my house so will check it out.
Mike

You probably realise that Lidl do a sort of round the country stock rotation, but most things get around eventually. I was tipped off once about some satellite receivers, and a while later they appeared. The solder I bought was in Leatherhead a week or two back - not sure where it'll turn up next!

[audionewbi]

If you have an Express card slot at the side of your laptop (check the specs. It could be express card or PCMCIA), I got an X-FI optical for sale that would solve the problem.

sadly my laptop does not have a express card. I think down the track purchasing a v-link musical fidelity is not a bad idea.

for some tracks I hear a minor sibilance, is that normal? I am still burning in.

[slate]

Thanks, but I doubt my laptop supports that, I have a Thoshba Qosmio F60

According to this unfortunately no http://forums.computers.toshiba-europe.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=194872

Actually my Vaio does have the combined mini-jack connector; never tried it but it is indicated above the connector

[Werner Berghofer]

However I do think a little more gain would have being great for the k702. Got to figure out what to do.

Welcome to the club! I’ve been using AKG K701 headphones for two years, and no matter where I plugged them in they sounded thin, narrow and not really satisfying. Resolution, seperation and sound stage of these phones really are great, but I missed a lot of power, punch and volume (not to be confused with loudness). This became better as I connected them to a Caiman+ with Gator board, but I still was not really happy.

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/akg_k701.gif

By adding a dedicated, stand-alone headphone amp things greatly improved, but when I tried to increase the volume above a certain level distorsions were audible. Since those terrible bumps in the AKG’s headband were causing a lot of trouble for me after wearing the headphones for more than 30 minutes, I eventually switched to a Beyerdynamic DT 990 600 Ω model. This headphone is a perfect match for my tube headamp; even if the volume knob is turned to the maximum position there are no distorsions.

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/dt_990.gif

The Beyerdynamic DT 990 feels very comfortable, I can leave it on my head for hours without any obstructions. Sound, volume, power and punch are really satisfying, although detail resolution with the AKG K701 might be a little better. The AKG K701 is great for extreme analytical listening, but for me there’s more joy and a much higher foot-tapping factor when listening with the DT 990.

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/dac_amp_cans.jpg

Good luck for your journey and your quest for a matching headphone amplifier which is able to drive your AKG K702 cans ;-)

[audionewbi]

Should have bought an iBook or an iMac! Actually I'm not sure about iBooks, but the iMacs have the optical connection within the headphone outlet.

There are add-on gadgets which will provide an optical output. if we wait a while I'm sure others will remind us about these. i think there's one which outputs to USB then converts to a standard optical signal. I found this one which I've not seen before - don't know if it's any good - http://www.firestone-audio.eu/shop/products/allproductslisted/bravo.php seems a bit pricey.

There are a few others. I heard good things about the M2Tech Hiface -
http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface.html Not sure about the current price, but I think it may be under £100.

There are also some sound cards which have an optical output - though I don't know how well they work, or whether they are reasonable quality. I have an old SoundBlaster external card which should do this, but I've not been too successful with the optical in/out, and in any case the sound quality is not as good as the DAC I normally use (Caiman). You could try ebay - see for example - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250826247433#ht_2135wt_922 Mine is an MP3+ Soundblaster card - though I can only run this from my PC as I can't find the drivers to run from my laptop.
thanks for those. I was reading about the m2tech, but I was told that v-link might be a better option both in terms of built quality. It does cost more but it looks solid.

Or I can simply start using my PC more often :-D Problem solved in a way lol

[Werner Berghofer]

Actually I'm not sure about iBooks

The MacBook and the MacBook Pro models have been equipped with a 3.5 mm combined analog/optical outlet since day one.

[dave2010]

The MacBook and the MacBook Pro models have been equipped with a 3.5 mm combined analog/optical outlet since day one.Thanks Werner. Actually I wasn't sure about the latest MacBook Pros - I looked at the specs very carefully, as in many ways they seem excellent, and actually have more processing power than my couple of years old iMac so I'm tempted. Perhaps Apple just assume that "everyone" knows they do the optical within the audio jack - which ain't true! I'd be sad if I bought a new MacBook Pro and found it didn't have the optical output.

[audionewbi]

Welcome to the club! I’ve been using AKG K701 headphones for two years, and no matter where I plugged them in they sounded thin, narrow and not really satisfying. Resolution, seperation and sound stage of this phones really are great, but I missed a lot of power, punch and volume (not to be confused with loudness). This became better as I connected them to a Caiman+ with Gator board, but I still was not really happy.

By adding a dedicated, stand-alone headphone amp things greatly improved, but when I tried to increase the volume to a certain level distorsions were audible. Since those terrible bumps in the AKG’s headband were causing a lot of trouble for me after wearing the headphones for more than 30 minutes, I eventually switched to a Beyerdynamic DT 990 600 Ω model. This headphone is a perfect match for my tube headamp; even if the volume knob is turned to the maximum position there are no distorsions.

The Beyerdynamic DT 990 feels very comfortable, I can keep it on my head for hours without any obstructions. Sound, volume, power and punch are really satisfying, although detail resolution with the AKG K701 might be a little better. The AKG K701 is great for extreme analytical listening, but for me there’s more joy and a much higher foot-tapping factor when listening with the DT 990.

Good luck for your journey and quest for a matching headphone amplifier which is able to drive your K702 cans ;-)
Thanks for the welcome. The reason why I love the 701/702 is due to their great sound stage and instrument separation. In particular for classical music.
I have become acustom to the annoying 'comfort padding' of the akg, but yes they did cause me headache at first. I love the caiman gatorized with the hfi 780. Seems like I really need to buy an amp for this headphone.

Hopefully once day I get enough funding for the Beyerdynamic DT 990. It is not easy to find the 600 Ohms version either.
Would changing of the opamp make any difference?

[Werner Berghofer]

Perhaps Apple just assume that "everyone" knows they do the optical within the audio jack - which ain't true!

It can be found in the technical specifictions (http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs.html) – scroll down to the section titled “Audio” in the left column:

• Audio line in minijack (digital/analog)
• Audio line out/headphone minijack (digital/analog)

[Werner Berghofer]

Would changing of the opamp make any difference?

I have no idea, since I’m not a technical oriented do-it-yourself type of person.

Probably your listening requirements are different from mine, but I fear in the long run you won’t be really happy using the AKG K702 without a stand-alone headphone amp. The Beresford DACs really offer outstanding performance in their price category (I own five of these little black boxes!), but at least in my opinion even the latest, gatorized models are no substitute for a true headphone amplifier.

[dave2010]

The MacBook and the MacBook Pro models have been equipped with a 3.5 mm combined analog/optical outlet since day one.Werner

OK. I agree. I only found out about the possibility of combined optical audio jack socket outputs a few years ago by accident. Without that knowledge the specs are less meaningful. I meant to clarify this for the new iBook Pros with the people at the Apple Store - the specs don't specifically say optical outputs.

There's also the fact that manufacturers don't necessarily keep the same standards across all their ranges or products. AFAIK the iPad on which I'm trying to type this doesn't have an optical jack output.

I liked the headphone pictures. I have a Beyer DTX900 - suspect your 990s are much better, but I'm switching back to loudspeakers mostly now, when everyone else goes out for the day! Headphones are useful in the middle of the night, or on trips.

Best, Dave

[Werner Berghofer]

Dave,


I'm switching back to loudspeakers mostly now

listening to loudspeakers really is great, I like the spatial projection of the sound into the room and the feeling of moving air on my skin which I clearly perceive even when listening with moderate volume. However, only when using headphones there’s that certain joy of discovering new and subtle details in tracks which I believed to have been knowing in depth throughout nearly my whole life.

I even got used to the typical in-head location, but I clearly prefer open headphones. There’s a pair of really fine AKG K271 headphones in the shelf behind me, but these are closed-back types which give me a certain claustrophobic feeling when wearing them.

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/akg_k271.gif

Guess I’m leaning more toward headphone listening. I very well remember a certain moment back in my youth when I heard my own field recordings with the radically open Sennheiser HD 414 for the first time. I was working freelance for the Austrian radio broadcasting, producing some kind of outdoor ambient features called “Hörbilder” (“sound images” or “soundscapes”) and “Kopfhörer” (translated literally from German the title of our radio show would be “head listener”, which is the same word used for headphones in German) with Uher Report and Nagra reel-to-reel mobile tape recorders. Once I recorded a feature with the then famous Neumann dummy head condenser microphones, which of course sounded tremendously breath taking and three dimensional with open headphones.

The details I noticed with the HD 414 headphone simply where overwhelming.

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/sennheiser_hd_414.gif

Especially for you I included two more headphone pictures in my post ;-)

[Tim]

. . . but at least in my opinion even the latest, gatorized models are no substitute for a true headphone amplifier.
I completely agree here Werner, I used to listen to headphones quite a bit before buying my latest speakers and used a dedicated headphone amp. I bought the Gator Caiman which is fine for occasional listening by headphones, but it has it's limitations compared to a true headphone amplifier, especially with classical music. If you are intending to do a lot of headphone listening, you really will need a dedicated amplifier to sit alongside the Caiman.

[Werner Berghofer]

Tim,


you really will need a dedicated amplifier to sit alongside the Caiman.
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/library1.jpg

right, but don’t forget the comfortable chair to sit alongside the Caiman and the headphone amp :-)

[Mike g]

Mike

You probably realise that Lidl do a sort of round the country stock rotation, but most things get around eventually. I was tipped off once about some satellite receivers, and a while later they appeared. The solder I bought was in Leatherhead a week or two back - not sure where it'll turn up next!

Bought the second last one and some solder at my local lidle. Just need to get some connectors and i will start practicing on some cable i have kicking about.

[barry-potter]

Tim,


http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/library1.jpg

right, but don’t forget the comfortable chair to sit alongside the Caiman and the headphone amp :-)

that looks like an ikea chair. i have one of those.

[Werner Berghofer]

that looks like an ikea chair. i have one of those.
http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/living_room1.jpg

Right, this chair is manufactured and sold by IKEA. There’s another one upstairs in my living room. They are very comfortable (my cat wholeheartedly shares this opinion) and easy on the eye.

[audionewbi]

I have no idea, since I’m not a technical oriented do-it-yourself type of person.

Probably your listening requirements are different from mine, but I fear in the long run you won’t be really happy using the AKG K702 without a stand-alone headphone amp. The Beresford DACs really offer outstanding performance in their price category (I own five of these little black boxes!), but at least in my opinion even the latest, gatorized models are no substitute for a true headphone amplifier.
Yes I agree, I have to be grateful that within that price category I was able to buy a unit which does what it does. Looks like a dedicated amp it is than :)
Having said that I am still able to enjoy the HFI 780 a lot with this babies :)

[barry-potter]

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/living_room1.jpg

Right, this chair is manufactured and sold by IKEA. There’s another one upstairs in my living room. They are very comfortable (my cat wholeheartedly shares this opinion) and easy on the eye.

my cat agrees with your cat

[Millzee60]

http://www.berghofer.com/photos/gear/living_room1.jpg

Right, this chair is manufactured and sold by IKEA. There’s another one upstairs in my living room. They are very comfortable (my cat wholeheartedly shares this opinion) and easy on the eye.

Holy Moly, nice view:)

[Millzee60]

sadly my laptop does not have a express card. I think down the track purchasing a v-link musical fidelity is not a bad idea.

for some tracks I hear a minor sibilance, is that normal? I am still burning in.

What about a squeeze box? I don't have one but from what I've read they are very high quality and would provide the bridge between a PC/mac and your DAC either wirelessly or via Ethernet. And you'd also be able to connect to your DAC using coax which many believe is the better option.

[audionewbi]

What about a squeeze box? I don't have one but from what I've read they are very high quality and would provide the bridge between a PC/mac and your DAC either wirelessly or via Ethernet. And you'd also be able to connect to your DAC using coax which many believe is the better option.

I have read somewhere in slim devices forum that for some flac they just do not seem to have the raw power needed to convert the files correctly. I was thinking about it and they do provide a better option as everytime I jump on the laptop so I can enjoy my music I end up reading the news and googling about stuff instead of listening to the music as I originally intended.

[audionewbi]

OMG has anyone tried the gator with ER4S? People do it, you are missing out on alot, ALOT!!!!!! The clarity excess the HFI 780 and k702, makes me wonder if Stan built the gator around them!!! It feels like it is made for this! OMG~!!!!!!!!!!!1

[audionewbi]

http://i52.tinypic.com/2kpiir.jpg

Question:I am still a little confused, why is it that I am able to have such setup from my computer sound card but I am limited when it comes to USB out?

[Stratmangler]

http://i52.tinypic.com/2kpiir.jpg

Question:I am still a little confused, why is it that I am able to have such setup from my computer sound card but I am limited when it comes to USB out?

Because when you're using your computer soundcard all the interfacing between ADC/DAC is proprietary.

As soon as you connect the Caiman to a USB port you leave the proprietary world behind.

If you're that keen on having to have greater bit depths and higher sample rates via USB2 then why don't you get an EMU0202 and have done with it ?
The EMU will quite happily support 24/192 on Windows OS

[audionewbi]

Because when you're using your computer soundcard all the interfacing between ADC/DAC is proprietary.

As soon as you connect the Caiman to a USB port you leave the proprietary world behind.

If you're that keen on having to have greater bit depths and higher sample rates via USB2 then why don't you get an EMU0202 and have done with it ?
The EMU will quite happily support 24/192 on Windows OS
doesnt sound as good. I am was just curious about why some USB devices can handle certain depth where as some cannot.:lolsign:

[Stratmangler]

doesnt sound as good. I am was just curious about why some USB devices can handle certain depth where as some cannot.:lolsign:

It's because they use proprietary drivers.
We've been here before :doh:

The EMU0202 sounds very good IME - a lot better than the built in crap that most laptops have.

[audionewbi]

It's because they use proprietary drivers.
We've been here before :doh:

The EMU0202 sounds very good IME - a lot better than the built in crap that most laptops have.

I just tested the optical out vs USB to my ears they sound as good. I didnt try it on my stereo system yet, I am happy with the Onkyo on board DAC. But using my headphone set up the 24/96 makes no difference.

Finally I can enjoy my music now :lolsign:

[Peter Galbavy]

I have read somewhere in slim devices forum that for some flac they just do not seem to have the raw power needed to convert the files correctly. I was thinking about it and they do provide a better option as everytime I jump on the laptop so I can enjoy my music I end up reading the news and googling about stuff instead of listening to the music as I originally intended.

Never ever had a problem with FLAC files on an SB3 (up to 16/48) and a Touch (24/96). My own FLAC files as well as downloads, at various levels of compression (0 through 8).

The only problem I have is my NAS box occassionally having issues with the Squeezeserver software which I know how to solve...