Cartridge set up

[Jac Hawk]

Can someone help, it's been a while since i've set up a cartridge from scratch, anyway i downloaded the correct protractor and printed it off (and yes it was the correct size) it has an arc and 2 points marked on the arc, surrounding each point is a grid, now am i right in thinking that the point of the stylus needs to follow the arc and hit both the points on the arc as well as the cartridge lining up with the grids, without the need for me to move the platter:scratch:

[worrasf]

Hi Mike
Yes and no :)
The arc is to set stylus overhang distance and the 2 marks on it are to set the stylus null points - depends on what "philosophy" the protractor is set to (baerwald etc etc)

I use a MINT tractor which is the best I've ever found specifically made for each arm/deck combination. It aligns the stylus tip at the null points not the cartridge body (they are not the same) and invariably results in a bit of "toe in" at the null points but boy can you tell when it's right

Anyway the idea is:

Place tractor on platter and prevent the platter moving at all - I use some minimal stick surgical tape but light masking tape would do - the platter must not move.

Turn the tractor and place the stylus on the arc as far out as possible fix the tractor with tape so it can't move then move the arm across the platter tracing the stylus on the arc to as close to the spindle as you can. If the stylus is off at this point move the cartridge back or forward until it lies on the arc then lift and place it back on the outer part of the tractor if it's not on the arc then
move the cartridge again until it is. Repeat until the stylus exactly traces the arc and lies on the line at inner and outer markers.

Place stylus on the cross hatch on the arc and adjust until parallel with the lines on the tractor - repeat on the inner null point until both correct. You want to ensure the stylus is still on the arc so the adjustment is a rotation not forward and back.

Tighten up and recheck. Then recheck again,

It's a real pain in the arse but you will absolutely hear the difference when it's spot on as opposed to "it'll do"

I can't recommend the MINT tractor highly enough. If you plan on keeping the same arm and deck it's well worth the money,

Steve

[Jac Hawk]

cheers steve, i thought that was how you did it, but i wasn't 100% so i asked, anyway i got a protractor off vinyl engine for the Techie

[worrasf]

Pleasure Mike
If you have a Jelco 750 on your techie beware that many tractors don't set it up right at the standard arm/spindle mounting distance :eek:
Before I laid out dollar for the MINT I struggled to get it right and of the various setups available I found the null point info published by Jelco to be the best.

Steve

[Jac Hawk]

Now i'm confused:scratch: i've got the SL1800, i downloaded the correct tractor off vinyl engine, printed it off to the correct scale and then tried to get the Nag MP15 set up in the stock techie headshell, to get the point of the stylus to hit the null points it needs to stick out the front of the headshell by about 4 or 5mm, does that seem right:scratch:

[worrasf]

Hi Mike,

I expect it is correct for the particular geometric calculation used by the tractor. There are several different theoretical null points depending on where you want the minimal tracking error to be relative to the spindle.
See http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

A whole weekend of reading and head scratching. :scratch:

At the end of the day if the overhang is correct and you've got the cartridge parallel at both null points then thats you good to go. :)

If like me you have a tendency to OCD then cartridge setup/alignment is an absolute nightmare :confused:

Steve

[Jac Hawk]

OCD:lolsign: yup that just about sums me up, it has to be absolutly perfect, think i'll call NASA in, they might have a gadget for doing an even better job:lolsign:

Seriously though, i was just a little surprised to see the cart sticking out so far:eek: it just didn't look right you know.

[worrasf]

Mike,

Don't bother with NASA - email Yip at MINT and order one of his tractors instead!

Fret not about it sticking forward - when I was using my Nag MP11 Boron it was about 2-3 mm in front of the headshell and toed inwards about 10 degrees.

Steve

[Jac Hawk]

Cheers steve:thumbsup:

[Alex_UK]

No worries - my MP-15 is sticking out at the front on my SL-150/SL-1500 arm so it is perfectly normal to have a protrusion! :)

[DSJR]

Technics (on the SL1500 - same as 1800), use 60mm as the inner null point. The rest of the arm geometry is fine, so the outer one should be ok too once the inner one is set. SME used to use 60mm too, but the later protractors from them use 65mm I believe/remember.

With the old standard Techie shell (with plastic mounting plate and single locking screw to slide the plastic plate back and forth), my M91ED/75-6 body has the stylus assembly almost level with the front of the headshell, which would indeed mean the front of a Nagaoka protruding forwards a bit.

By the way, I said ages ago that I thought the techie 1500 (and subsequent) exit cables were ok. Mine failed due to excess stress over the decades - they have a tiny number of very fine tinned(?) strands as the inner conductor, so I replaced them with my favourite (and Audio Origami's) Van Damme pro Patch mic cables and cheap neutrik "REAN" plugs. I have to eat my former words 'cos the improvement wasn't a small one - ahem...

[keiths]

Mike, if you are using the techie Baerwald arc protractor off vinyl engine, you'll find your MP11 will be overhanging the end of the headshell by quite a bit and will also be rotated a little bit inwards for correct alignment. The geometry of the technics arm was designed for Stevenson alignment which would require the stylus to be 52mm (I think ) from the far end of the headshell washer and the cartridge square in the headshell. I prefer the Baewald alignment if the headshell slots are long enough to accommodate it.

[DSJR]

Mike, if you are using the techie Baerwald arc protractor off vinyl engine, you'll find your MP11 will be overhanging the end of the headshell by quite a bit and will also be rotated a little bit inwards for correct alignment. The geometry of the technics arm was designed for Stevenson alignment which would require the stylus to be 52mm (I think ) from the far end of the headshell washer and the cartridge square in the headshell. I prefer the Baewald alignment if the headshell slots are long enough to accommodate it.

Why?

I only ask as the main part of the record that depends on good alignment is the area at the end of side. I don't have the original Technics gauge, so had to use a Linn protractor. 65mm as specified by Linn and many newer tonearms (not Rega though) is difficult, so I reverted to the 60mm setting and this was fine, keeping the cartridge true in looks too.

The outer edge of the record isn't anything like as much of a problem I understand, as vinyl speed is greater for one thing, opening up the squiggles a little for high frequencies so critical alignment isn't as necessary for low distortion. Some have suggested that 12" tonearms, apart from looking cool, have no advantage over 9 to 9.5" alternatives and in fact may actually be worse because of increased tendancy to resonate at audio frequencies. I haven't tested this theory though, but the eye-fi factor is definitely one thing to consider I reckon :)

[keiths]

Why?

I was hoping no one was going to ask me that :lol:

As far as I know (and I'm probably wrong), Stevenson's method is designed to minimise end-of-side distortion at the expense of distortion at other points, whereas Baerwald's gives equal distortion at the start, middle and end (can't remember what Loefgren's does). I prefer to have lower distortion over most of the record at the expense of slightly higher distortion at the very end.

What I'm going to do is listen to a few records then re-align my catridge to Stevenson nulls (60.325mm and 177.42mm) and listen again.

[worrasf]

Why?



See http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_alignment_comparator.php
for explanation
Steve

[DSJR]

It's the INNER grooves which are the ones to really watch - honestly :)

[Jac Hawk]

Mike, if you are using the techie Baerwald arc protractor off vinyl engine, you'll find your MP11 will be overhanging the end of the headshell by quite a bit and will also be rotated a little bit inwards for correct alignment. The geometry of the technics arm was designed for Stevenson alignment which would require the stylus to be 52mm (I think ) from the far end of the headshell washer and the cartridge square in the headshell. I prefer the Baewald alignment if the headshell slots are long enough to accommodate it.

Yes I am and it was quite disconcerting to begin with as there is quite a bit of overhang, however it does sound good now:) which is what it's all about, anyway thanks to everyone who's posted, as now finally I know what I'm doing:scratch:

[hifi_dave]

Inner grooves are where things get tough for a cartridge. The outer grooves are relatively easy. Having said that, I have tried most of the protractors over the years and a couple of ones not mentioned and I can't hear any difference to speak of.

[Marco]

Whilst accurate set-up is important, I think it's also important not to get too anal about it, as then you can very easily find yourself obsessing with this and that to the detriment of enjoying the music, which is the whole point of the exercise!

It's worth remembering that reproducing recorded music on vinyl is fraught with inaccuracies throughout the replay chain, not least because of the many mechanical interactions involved, and thus the opportunity for error to occur - and that's before we look at the software itself...

Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, the importance of what alignment protractor is used, or whether, for example, your VTA is out by 1mm, is at best moot ;)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

With all the inaccuracies and problems I often wonder how it all works at all, let alone how great vinyl can sound.

[DSJR]

Whilst accurate set-up is important, I think it's also important not to get too anal about it, as then you can very easily find yourself obsessing with this and that to the detriment of enjoying the music, which is the whole point of the exercise!

It's worth remembering that reproducing recorded music on vinyl is fraught with inaccuracies throughout the replay chain, not least because of the many mechanical interactions involved, and thus the opportunity for error to occur - and that's before we look at the software itself...

Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, the importance of what alignment protractor is used, or whether, for example, your VTA is out by 1mm, is at best moot ;)

Marco.

Good grief Marco - are you well????? :lol: :ner:

This post of yours is one of the best I've ever read I think..

I also agree with dave that it's a miracle the format works so well at all, but when it does......... magic happens :eyebrows:

[Marco]

With all the inaccuracies and problems I often wonder how it all works at all, let alone how great vinyl can sound.


Indeed! I think it boils down to the fact that our ears and brain are essentially 'analogue'.... ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


Good grief Marco - are you well????? :lol: :ner:

This post of yours is one of the best I've ever read I think..


Lol - churz... May as well tell it as it is!

But that doesn't mean that, despite its limitations, I don't consider vinyl (at its best) ultimately to be the most faithful way of reproducing recorded music ;)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Indeed! I think it boils down to the fact that our ears and brain are essentially 'analogue'.... ;)

Marco.

I'm not sure our brains or hearing are strictly "analogue" you know, but as I'm not a medical man (medicated certainly, but not medical :D), I can't argue one way or another.

Anyway, glad the OP got sorted and is hopefully enjoying his SL1800.

The main issue with these old arms is actually the bias-corrector accuracy. get the spring slightly out on one of it's fixings and the bias dramatically increases too much at side end, drastically overshadowing alignment issues. Set this spring too far the other way and there's no bias correction at all :( Alex's arm was ok, but not mine... I've gone back to the Lab 80 in a huff ;)

[worrasf]

Indeed! I think it boils down to the fact that our ears and brain are essentially 'analogue'.... ;)

Marco.
So not true Marco ;) The brain is the supreme example of digital. Neural impulses are nothing more than electrical switches alternating polarisation and depolarisation (on and off) - If that's not digital I don't know what is. Likewise, auditory information is due to activation of the hair cells caused by the pressure wave transmitted from the movement of the ear drum via the auditory ossicles - indeed you might argue that the auditory chain is an analogue to digital converter. So who want to hazard a guess to the linear PSU that drives it :lolsign:

I'd agree agonising over VTA is a short cut to the funny farm for us OCD types I dont think all cartridge setup tractors are created equal. While most just vary according to the null points they use and like others I can't hear any difference
between the various setups - the MINT tractor is the only one I know of that also aligns the stylus cantilever (not
cartridge body) to be parallel to the record grooves at the chosen null points In my experience this is worth agonising over because the sonic improvement when it's spot on as opposed to almost there is night and day. :)

Steve

[Marco]

Hi Steve,


So not true Marco ;) The brain is the supreme example of digital. Neural impulses are nothing more than electrical switches alternating polarisation and depolarisation (on and off) - If that's not digital I don't know what is.

That may be how the brain functions in a neurological sense, but IME it's not how the ear/brain processes music signals from audio equipment.

Basically, we don't listen to music in the same way as test equipment measures sound, hence why often arguably less 'accurate' forms of music reproduction, such as vinyl with its inherent (but natural) distortions, which are pleasing to the human ear, are often more enjoyable to listen to :)

As for cartridge alignment, I simply use my normal alignment protractor, go through the usual process, and once done, kick back and enjoy the music. Thankfully, OCD is not something I suffer from.

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Whilst accurate set-up is important, I think it's also important not to get too anal about it, as then you can very easily find yourself obsessing with this and that to the detriment of enjoying the music, which is the whole point of the exercise!

It's worth remembering that reproducing recorded music on vinyl is fraught with inaccuracies throughout the replay chain, not least because of the many mechanical interactions involved, and thus the opportunity for error to occur - and that's before we look at the software itself...

Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, the importance of what alignment protractor is used, or whether, for example, your VTA is out by 1mm, is at best moot ;)

Marco.

I always went for arms with proper bais (String Weight) alighnment protaractors sourced from SME, i always saw SME as a company that excelled hence piece of mind. Too much BS in this area for my liking.