View Full Version : To clamp or not to clamp? That is the question
Well not in my case - without question my system sounds better without a clamp! Not a little bit better but night and day better.
Now received wisdom as I understand it is a clamp improves the vinyl/platter interface which ipso facto must make the cartridge track better and dissipate energy better resulting in better sound - but this is not my experience.
My system is as listed below in my signature. I've been somewhat busy of late and not had chance to listen for days. - so much so that I even unplugged all my various PSU's (I can hear the cries of heresy from here). Well decided to listen to some tunes this evening - reconnected to the national grid - waited an hour or so and spun up the deck. Pretty good, darn good in fact but perhaps a bit bass light and a little slow on the "PRaT" front - probably needs more time to warm up methinks. Flipped Bob Seger's "Night Moves" to side 2 but sans record clamp and wham! Bass in spades dynamics to get a dead man tapping a foot - the difference was not subtle.
Now I don't pretend this is a definitive experiment as I only have 1 type of clamp a Clearaudio Clever Clamp which has no weight in it but firmly grips the spindle and holds the record tightly against the platter. Maybe other types would perform differently but for now the clamp is definitely staying on the shelf.
Steve
Jac Hawk
13-05-2011, 21:01
Why did i read this thread aaaarrrrrrrggghhh:doh: i was all ready to go get myself a clamp, now you've thrown the spanner well and truly in there:lolsign:. Interesting though, maybe it's the clamp/mat combo that's working against one another, cos as the thinking goes a clamp should improve all aspects of the sound.
As the saying goes "assumption is the mother of all **** ups"
Well that's the saying in the NHS where I work right now :lol:
Steve
chris@panteg
13-05-2011, 21:07
Hi Stephen
I thought you were going to finnish with "The clamp delights not me nor woman niether"
You might want to try or borrow the Michell ?
As an aside if you don't mind me asking , do you have the modified platter back now ? And if so how's it sounding :)
I got a hold of a screw collar clamp , 400gm in weight, made of beryllium copper.
Looks very nice but i cant hear any difference.
The theory is overly simplistic in my view. Whilst a clamp does increase coupling between the record and the mat, the idea that the mat drains energy from the record makes two large assumptions; 1/ that it can drain energy in the manner theorized and, 2/ that the damping it applies is even across the entire frequency range. My experience is that many mats essentially act as parasitic masses and do not drain energy in the manner expected and secondly, they couple to the record in a a very frequency Dependant manner.
Hi Chris
Still awaiting the return of the platter - Richard was hoping to have finished it this week but so far no show :(
Rest assured I will post my experiences when I get it - hopefully next week.
I think it's going to be bosting
I'm just not sure I go along with the clamp camp. I get the theory but just think it's a bit simplistic. The thing that concerns me the most is adding mass - sometimes a lot of it judging by some of the specs I've seen - this can't be good for the bearing/thrust pad and I don't want t hear that this is a reason to by an upgrade bearing that's engineered to power the Titanic :)
Moreover, one of the reasons Richard gives for his platter upgrade is to minimise the "work" that the speed control circuitry needs to do and it just seems to me that adding a lump of iron to a system not designed to take it is asking for trouble.
Regards
Steve
Steve
chris@panteg
13-05-2011, 21:51
The theory is overly simplistic in my view. Whilst a clamp does increase coupling between the record and the mat, the idea that the mat drains energy from the record makes two large assumptions; 1/ that it can drain energy in the manner theorized and, 2/ that the damping it applies is even across the entire frequency range. My experience is that many mats essentially act as parasitic masses and do not drain energy in the manner expected and secondly, they couple to the record in a a very frequency Dependant manner.
Its been said that an acrylic mat resonates at the same frequency as the vinyl itself , therefore creating a rather big problem , Would you agree with that Mark ?
chris@panteg
13-05-2011, 21:55
Hi Chris
Still awaiting the return of the platter - Richard was hoping to have finished it this week but so far no show :(
Rest assured I will post my experiences when I get it - hopefully next week.
I think it's going to be bosting
I'm just not sure I go along with the clamp camp. I get the theory but just think it's a bit simplistic. The thing that concerns me the most is adding mass - sometimes a lot of it judging by some of the specs I've seen - this can't be good for the bearing/thrust pad and I don't want t hear that this is a reason to by an upgrade bearing that's engineered to power the Titanic :)
Moreover, one of the reasons Richard gives for his platter upgrade is to minimise the "work" that the speed control circuitry needs to do and it just seems to me that adding a lump of iron to a system not designed to take it is asking for trouble.
Regards
Steve
Steve
In a recent email , Richard tells me he's just about finished a platter ! I'm assuming it must be your's :) good news then.
I'm not sure about record weight's either , but i only have at present the Alchemist which seems ok , but in all honesty i quite like the sound I'm getting with no weight or clamp .
I'm not sure about record weight's either , but i only have at present the Alchemist which seems ok , but in all honesty i quite like the sound I'm getting with no weight or clamp .
I see an opening for an anticlamp club - looks like we've got 3 or 4 members already :lol:
Fingers crossed it is my platter Richard has just finished :hifives:
Steve
Its been said that an acrylic mat resonates at the same frequency as the vinyl itself , therefore creating a rather big problem , Would you agree with that Mark ?
I would say that the concept of vibration being converted into heat, and so dissipated, is a lot easier said than actually done. Even if the record were 'as one' with the platter, what has mostly happened is just an increase in the mass of the record. The energy generated by the vibrating stylus in the groove just stays in the system, being reflected and unevenly attenuated until eventually it is used up.
In addition, a record on an acrylic (or any, for that matter) platter (or mat) is not 'as one' with it - it is actually an entirely separate object - it is not 100% flat and it is grooved. When the record sits on the mat, only parts of it make contact. If a clamp is used the pressure is not applied evenly across the surface of the record (as it is applied from the centre) and it is outside the ability of most clamps/weights to genuinely iron out warps and bring the entire surface of the record into equal contact with the mat/platter.
Hi Steve,
Moreover, one of the reasons Richard gives for his platter upgrade is to minimise the "work" that the speed control circuitry needs to do and it just seems to me that adding a lump of iron to a system not designed to take it is asking for trouble.
The effectiveness (or otherwise) of clamps or record weights is very T/T and system-dependent. Over and above that, the sonic effect of clamps or weights varies significantly depending on the design.
Therefore, I'm sure that you wouldn't be naive enough to arrive at a definitive conclusion, simply after having tried only one type of clamp..... :)
My advice would be to try a Michell record clamp, as in my experience they're very effective, and lightweight, so won't add much in the way of mass. The Michell clamp, on my T/T and in my system, results in a totally no-brainer significant sonic improvement - and I know that I'm not alone in that respect.
Regarding the bit in bold, theories are all good and well, but the practice is what really counts. If what you've stated above was actually true, do you think I'd be using an 8kg Mike New platter on my Techy and claiming the huge improvement in performance it gives? ;)
Mind you, I am using a massively over-engineered bearing and T/T PSU to facilitate it.....
Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing your observations in the slightest - you hear what you hear, and it's valid, but like most other things in hi-fi, nothing is rarely ever 'black & white'.
Marco.
Hi Steve,
My advice would be to try a Michell record clamp, as in my experience they're very effective, and lightweight, so won't add much in the way of mass.
Mind you, I am using a massively over-engineered bearing and T/T PSU to facilitate it.....
The Clearaudio clamp I have is acrylic so light as a light thing - adds little mass just grips the spindle.
Ha ha Marco - you fell for my cunning plan :) My previous post "I don't want t hear that this is a reason to buy an upgrade bearing that's engineered to power the Titanic" was designed to flush out a comment from you:lolsign:
Steve
Lol - so what did you want me to tell you? :)
As for the Clearaudio clamp, I know the one you mean. Personally, I don't think it's up to much. If you wish to pursue using clamps further, I'd defo try the Michell one.
You've got a pretty well-sorted Techy, but if you want to upgrade significantly at some point, then I'd target your PSU, or perhaps get an Oyaide mat and record weight - now that combo is one that definitely works!! :cool:
Marco.
Lol - so what did you want me to tell you? :)
You've got a pretty well-sorted Techy, but if you want to upgrade significantly at some point, then I'd target your PSU, or perhaps get an Oyaide mat and record weight - now that combo is one that definitely works!! :cool:
Marco.
Watch this space Marco. I should get my platter back from Richard at Vantage Audio next week after it's level 2 upgrade. I decided to go this "bonded" route rather than "plonk on" TT mats. I've been more than happy with the improvements his bearing upgrade has given me so I have high hopes for the platter.
Yes, PSU change is on my mind. Although not specifically designed/manufactured I am minded to ask Mark at Audiocom if he can import a custom PSU from Teddy Pardo for me the same way he did for my Caiman with superb results.
Steve
Nice one, Steve.
I like the way you're thinking outside of the box, and going a slightly different route from others - good luck with your project.
I think the platter upgrade will be significant... Anyway, let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
Will do Marco.
BTW - whats the DC output voltage of the Paul Hynes SR5-21 you are using?
Steve
Slippershod
14-05-2011, 14:03
The Curse of the Clamp ...
'put away that object of sin and shame ... A clamp! A ... device to tickle the jaded fancies of old men ... '
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CzQTRwXWY8&NR=1
with apologies for the thread crap.
Reid Malenfant
14-05-2011, 14:37
BTW - whats the DC output voltage of the Paul Hynes SR5-21 you are using?
The Technics works on 21V DC, i wonder if 5-21 gives some kind of clue to the output? :)
The Technics works on 21V DC, i wonder if 5-21 gives some kind of clue to the output? :)
Gosh - a bit lateral for me :scratch:
Steve
The full name of the SR5 PSU is the SR5-21 ;)
I presume that Mark is correct, as I wouldn't have a Scooby-Doo about such matters :)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
14-05-2011, 17:48
I don't like being wrong but it has been known :doh:
The internal regulator, the standard Technics one has an output of 21V DC. As that is no longer used with the SR5 i'd have a pretty good guess & say that the SR5-21 output is 21V DC :eyebrows:
For those still interested in the difference between clamped and unclamped, I have done four recordings with the record clamped and unclamped (from my own deck). The recordings have not been normalised or adjusted in any way, so you will have to turn the volume up a bit (they are all at the same level though).
(sorry for the repetition of recordings - I really did it for my own benefit so I could compare to previous recordings)
The A2D/D2A process clearly has a negative effect though - there is a loss in immediacy and very fine detail. The process also adds a softer sheen to the whole thing that is not there when listening direct. However, the losses are equal for both sets of recordings.
There is another wrinkle too - the record mat I use is unlikely to be the one that anybody on this forum uses (as I made it). If people are keen I could do the whole thing again with a more conventional felt or cork mat.
Download Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?3c4lvl9jaj37cb7
Hi Mark,
Thanks for that. But what will it prove, mate?
Merely that clamping does or doesn't work well on your turntable? Certainly not that record clamping, as a process in the music reproduction chain, is universally right or wrong :)
Anyway, I'll listen to the recordings and give you my verdict :cool:
Marco.
It's not really intended to prove anything Marco, and as you say, it won't; it's just for fun and entertainment. After all, absolute proof of any kind is very hard to achieve in all areas of hi-fi.
I look forward to your findings :).
Edit: Perhaps, on reflection, I should state where I stand on the subject of clamping records, to be honest I am entirely ambivalent -the effects vary significantly from one mat to the next and also between turntables. However, I have found there to be an element of consistency in character between clamped and unclamped and, at best, I would say there is a significant element of swings and roundabouts.
Well, to put in my two pennys worth...
In the past I've tried clamps on a Garrard 301, Audiomeca Pierre Lurne, Mentor (one of the dearer ones, can't remember which) and a Platine Verdier (my current deck). Tried three or four clamps over the years, but an SME and a Clearaudio clamp has been used on all of them.
IMO, in every case using a clamp seemed to remove the sense of life and air from recordings but may have tightened up the bass a little. Certainly worse at the middle and top end and not enough of an improvement at the bottom to make it worth using. I wouyldn't recommend using one to anyone who wants a sense of a performance from their system rather than a hifi sound.
- Again IMO, of the clamps I tried the best of them was the lightest, the Clearaudio.
If in doubt, go to or speak to Kevin at Definitive Audio (lovely guy) and ask him how many clamps he has knocking about for sale, and ask him why.
chris@panteg
23-05-2011, 08:55
Well, to put in my two pennys worth...
In the past I've tried clamps on a Garrard 301, Audiomeca Pierre Lurne, Mentor (one of the dearer ones, can't remember which) and a Platine Verdier (my current deck). Tried three or four clamps over the years, but an SME and a Clearaudio clamp has been used on all of them.
IMO, in every case using a clamp seemed to remove the sense of life and air from recordings but may have tightened up the bass a little. Certainly worse at the middle and top end and not enough of an improvement at the bottom to make it worth using. I wouyldn't recommend using one to anyone who wants a sense of a performance from their system rather than a hifi sound.
- Again IMO, of the clamps I tried the best of them was the lightest, the Clearaudio.
If in doubt, go to or speak to Kevin at Definitive Audio (lovely guy) and ask him how many clamps he has knocking about for sale, and ask him why.
Hi Wayne
I'm inclined to agree with you , I've stopped using my Alchemist weight , though still useful as it has bubble spirit level built in.
Kevin knows his stuff doesn't he :) , i find whenever i get to hear one of his systems they usually sound amazing , though hardly affordable in most cases alas .
Hi Wayne,
Interesting - I can understand where you're coming from, as I've had similar experiences with certain turntables. Clamps are by no means a universal upgrade.
However, have you ever tried using a clamp on a (quality) direct-drive turntable? :)
Marco.
Well, I spent quite a bit of time comparing with clamp and without clamp on my own deck yesterday. On balance I think I like it better with the clamp - not on all records though. Even then, this is only specific to my own situation as the bearing design on my deck is differnt to others, as is the mat and the clamp (a light weight design).
In general, I have often found that Frog's (Wayne's) description is pretty accurate. Even with my own system, I still find that the mid sounds more open on some records (at the expense of a bit of focus) if the clamp is not used.
Edit: Hey Marco, just read your post - looking forward to your findings.
Interesting, Mark - not what I expected!
I've only listened to the first two tracks, and bearing in mind, I only heard them through my crappy laptop speakers, and so it's difficult to accurately judge, but my guess would be that the 'un-clamped' versions were:
Dissidents F.
Happiness is Easy E.
I'll tell you why if I'm right! If I'm not, then there might also be a valid explanation, based on what you've just reported.....
Btw, what clamp are you using for the test? :)
Marco.
freefallrob
23-05-2011, 09:41
Well it's a no clamp here, it just sounds 'more up for it' in my experience.
The tracks aren't mixed up Marco - all the E tracks are with it one way (with or without clamp) and all the F tracks the other way. The clamp I use hasn't been made in many years (I think it is Italian). Basicaly, it is a 12mm thick piece of Delrin that is split and grips the centre shaft - it doesn't work by weight. You have to stop the platter to fit it; as a result, I've designed a light weight clamp that can be fited with the platter spinning - still got to have a sample made though (that's another story).
Well, in that case, I'd say that the un-clamped versions were 'F'. But that's based on what I'd expect a clamp to do on most belt-drive turntables....
If the un-clamped versions were 'E', then that may explain what you reported earlier.
Marco.
Hmm.. I can't remember myself now - I will have to look at the files on my Netbook (which is at home) to confirm which is which.
To be honest, I'm not convinced the type of drive system has much (if any) impact on the effect of clamping - the record mat yes and, to an extent, the platter/chassis etc.
I'll tell which is which this evening :).
RobbieGong
23-05-2011, 10:49
In IMHO and experience clamped had the effect that most have expressed, surpression of detail and loss of sparkle to the presentation. I even thought I'd give it a go last week and purchased the Michell Clamp to address warp issues, took it off in no time, much more enjoyable listen without. I find in the audiophile world that any hint of 'brightnes' seems to be a problem. I'm one of those who would rather hear a little of that and a bit of sparkle to the presentation rather than this overly neutral even dull presentation that some like. When I clamped thats what happened, the clarity, detail and sweetness to the presentaion became surpressed and the presentation became dullened. I've found this with other so called upgrades too ie: mats and even those rubbery sorbothene feet were awful on the stock technie and exposed or emphasised that so called 'dark' sound. Isonoe feet are the best, look great and the improvement to sound is suttle and does not reveal any darkness to the sound. KAB fluid damper is also an improvement in the right direction, better sound without issues of 'darkness' so to speak. I also prefer the stock mat (3.7mm rubber)to any other I've tried and I've tried loads. Maybe these things are because my arm and platter are stock. Maybe the results would be different if those parts were not stock, who knows.
I'll tell which is which this evening :).
Tease! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hi Robert,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
Maybe these things are because my arm and platter are stock. Maybe the results would be different if those parts were not stock, who knows
Experience would certainly suggest so; therefore perhaps try it again if or when you begin modifying your Techy? Interestingly, what you've described is exactly what I found when my SL-1210 was unmodified, so I think what you're hearing is bang on!
One of the reasons for this is that the stock thick rubber mat provides a very high level of damping, and therefore applying further damping with a clamp (which is one of its effects), tips things over the edge, giving the effects you describe.
I suspect results would be different if you tried the clamp, with say, an Achromat.
However, things do change quite drastically when you begin altering (and improving) the sonic signature of the Techy, in stock form, by upgrading its constituent parts. It will therefore come as no surprise to you that the Michell clamp on my highly modified SL-1210 has the complete opposite effect from what you describe.
Otherwise, it'd be in bin! ;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
23-05-2011, 12:03
I hear ya Marco and It's exactly that, different things suit different things if you know what I mean, system AND component matching etc - Making the most of what you've got and that equates to not taking everything (no matter how expensive, 'snazzy' or lorded about) as a must have or a 'will work for me' - Which in itself equates to a whole lot of suck it and see :eyebrows:!! - As I know, like me you know Marco :)
Hi Wayne,
Interesting - I can understand where you're coming from, as I've had similar experiences with certain turntables. Clamps are by no means a universal upgrade.
However, have you ever tried using a clamp on a (quality) direct-drive turntable? :)
Marco.
No, only on the (idler drive) Garrard 301.
The F files are with no record clamp and the E files are with the record clamp.
From earlier:
Well, in that case, I'd say that the un-clamped versions were 'F'.
:)
In that case then, Mark, are you absolutely sure that you prefer clamping on your T/T?
Because I chose 'F' as the un-clamped recordings as, to my ears, the music seemed to sound clearer, 'snappier', and had more rhythmic conviction.
Of the two recordings I listened to, 'E' had a 'thicker' more ponderous presentation, the likes of which I normally associate when clamps are used on low to medium-mass belt-drive turntables.
Marco.
To be honest, it varies on the music I am listening to. A few days ago I felt it was better without the clamp - very much for the reasons you describe. I listened on Sunday though and liked the greater apparent detail and more focus of the clamp.
Indeed. It will do, as that's the nature of the beast :)
Can't wait until Chris visits again and we nail this needle-drop malarkey with my T/T - then they'll be comparisons galore!
Marco.
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