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JohnM
12-05-2011, 12:17
Hi folks!

First post here in the proper section of the site - go easy on me :lol:

I've purchased a Jelco SA-750D arm to partner my Garrard 401, and Russ Collinson plinth (which should be arriving tomorrow).

After quickly dropping it into my old Rega P3 to check it out, to my eyes the headshell mounting guide slots when viewed at the front of the arm wand seem VERY slightly skewed to the left by about 0.5mm rather than 100% dead vertical. Placing a set-square by the headshell mounting slots confirms this. Making sure the headshell is straight, and then fitting that to the tonearm shows quite an obvious list to the left (pics attached below - hard to show the front of the tonearm as the macro on our camera is pretty naff!).

Duo-phonic have replied to me and said they've never had a problem, or any returns with this arm before. Not only that but I've been told I'll have to wait until they receive more shipments of the arm from Japan, despite the fact they appear to still be selling the 750D and have several available on their Ebay page(s).

Am I being paranoid, or should I just adjust the azimuth on the headshell itself and forget about it? I'm just concerned incase the arm-wand itself is slightly off centre; if I ever upgrade the headshell to one that doesn't offer adjustable azimuth I'm worried the azimuth will be wrong if the arm-wand isn't 100% accurately positioned.

Cheers,

- John

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8058/armtubeslightlyoffcentr.th.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/armtubeslightlyoffcentr.jpg/)

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9633/tilted1.th.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/tilted1.jpg/)

keiths
12-05-2011, 19:35
Hi John,

I think this is a 'known issue' with the SA-750D and it is this that prompted Shuggie to make his mounting collar - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7359

JohnM
12-05-2011, 20:37
Thanks for your reply Keith. That's not the issue in this instance, as the arm was sitting at its lowest point, in effect resting on the arm bias 'level', so it was all perfectly flat/true.

I've decided to send it back as had a second pair of eyes look at it now and they agree it's not quite accurate.

If the replacement is the same then I'll just have to accept that they're not 100% accurately put together. Fingers crossed I just had a Friday afternoon job :cool:

- John

JohnM
13-05-2011, 09:21
It appears Marco's SA-750D is also very slightly off by about 0.5mm also, so perhaps this is normal for this arm and can be compensated for by the adjustable azimuth on the headshell. (I guess this just means a fixed azimuth headshell would be a no-go area?)

If anyone else could possibly check theirs if/when they're able it would put my mind at ease ;)

Cheers,

- John

Beobloke
13-05-2011, 11:05
I'll try and check mine at the weekend for you if I get five minutes.

You don't get this sort of trouble with an SME.....;)

JohnM
13-05-2011, 11:11
Ah thanks - much appreciated!

I should hope not for the price they cost (something I'll never be able to afford short of winning the lotto!) lol!

This is as high-end as I'll ever be able to go.

My plinth arrived from Russ Collinson at Layers of Beauty - 'tis a beaut! £150 (inc. postage) for a 50mm thick marine ply plinth with cherry veneer - I'll be dropping that onto the top of a Sound Organisation wall mounted shelf, with four rubber decouplers between shelf & plinth in each corner. Worked extremely well before when I did the same thing using a 25mm thick IKEA chopping board and is a very cost effective alternative to the heavy weight plinths. I'll try and get some pics up over the weekend.

- John

Alex_UK
13-05-2011, 17:59
I'll try and get some pics up over the weekend.

Yes please! :)

worrasf
13-05-2011, 18:17
If anyone else could possibly check theirs if/when they're able it would put my mind at ease ;)

Cheers,

- John

Hi John
Just checked mine and it's spot on vertical. I have one of Shuggies collars fitted but I agree with you this is not going to affect the wand. Clearly, this is not how it should be and like you I wouldn't accept compensating for azimuth on the headshell collar. It needs to be right.
Steve

hifi_dave
13-05-2011, 20:01
It's really not acceptable to be even a gnat's cock out, unless there is some adjustment.

On some arms the collar can be rotated in the arm tube. It might be a friction fit or could be a small grub screw under the collar which you slacken to allow movement. If that isn't possible, the arm should be replaced. IMO. I certainly wouldn't accept it.

MCRU
13-05-2011, 20:24
There are 2 issues with the Jelco, the headshell is crap IMO and the headshell leads, and the arm collar issue, apart from that it is one of the finest tone-arms ever made (IMO).

JohnM
13-05-2011, 22:44
Hi-Fi Dave: Yeah but not everyone has £200+ to spend on a just a headshell... - that takes it well out of the realm of a budget tonearm. Not everyone has that kind of money to throw around quite so freely ;)

Steve: MANY thanks for checking your arm - by the sounds of it even 0.5mm out is not good enough so I shall send it back next week. Unfortunately the seller (Duo-phonic on Ebay) was a victim of a hit and run on his moterbike yesterday so I'll probably have to leave this a few weeks before getting it resolved. Hope he's doing OK - sounded very nasty :(

- J

Alex_UK
13-05-2011, 22:54
Hi-Fi Dave: Yeah but not everyone has £200+ to spend on a just a headshell... - that takes it well out of the realm of a budget tonearm. Not everyone has that kind of money to throw around quite so freely ;)


Wrong "Dave" there I think, John (too many of the buggers!) - I think it was David Brook (Mains Cables R Us) who is suggesting the Jelco headshell is "crap" not hifi_dave.

Not sure everyone else would agree with that though - the Jelco headshell is basically the same as the Sumiko which many of us have been perfectly happy with, and Marco has been recommending for years - but then as you've observed, it doesn't cost the £200+ odd of the Oyaide one that David Brook sells, and which at about 7 times the price ought to be a hell of a lot better!

JohnM
13-05-2011, 23:05
Whoops! Yes my mistake (stern mental note not to post on forums after a night down the local ;) )

Apologies.

I have no doubt that the Oyaide probably does sound very good indeed - I just have to nail my colours to the mast here though and say the notion - to me - of spending £200+ on a headshell just seems a little... well.. OTT?!! I actually find that sort of pricing a little sick too, to be honest. What is REALLY in a headshell to warrant such a high price? CNC machining of a piece of CRFP and a socket. That's it! £200.... I just don't get it - sorry. It's Hi-Fi gone nuts...

But perhaps I'm just an old stick in the mud :lolsign:

However, each to his/her own :)

Time for bed.... hic! :doh:

- J

Marco
13-05-2011, 23:12
Hi Dave,


On some arms the collar can be rotated in the arm tube. It might be a friction fit or could be a small grub screw under the collar which you slacken to allow movement.


There is a tiny grub screw under the collar on the Jelco (I was discussing this earlier with John) - do you think that this is likely to allow the movement of which you speak?

Problem is, to get it at, I'd have to take the bloody arm right off...

Marco.

DSJR
14-05-2011, 08:42
If the headshell has an azimuth adjustment which bypasses any skew in the pipe, I'd leave well alone, as the socket would be loc-tited to the pipe and I suspect the pipe to bearing joint as well. Disturbing these may cause a problem.

The Sumiko headshell isn't crap at all - it's one of the better ones, just mass-produced not multi-layered in small-scale production/construction as the Oyaide is.

hifi_dave
14-05-2011, 12:44
Hi Dave,



There is a tiny grub screw under the collar on the Jelco (I was discussing this earlier with John) - do you think that this is likely to allow the movement of which you speak?

Problem is, to get it at, I'd have to take the bloody arm right off...

Marco.

Yes, that would do the job. Don't undo it completely, just un-nip it and see if the collar/headshell can be moved. Certainly this was the case with many such arms in the distant past.

However, as DSJR has commented, it might also be Loctite'd in place. If that is the case, it won't move and the arm should be replaced or make do with the headshell adjustment.

It's such an easy thing for the factory to get right during assembly and so these arms should be set perfectly. If they are not, then they are faulty IMO.

MCRU
14-05-2011, 13:19
Hi guys,
Sorry but it was my opinion as I stated about the Jelco headshell, I think it is crap and stand by that, the tone-arm wires are not much good either. The Oyaide headshell is much like the rest of Oyaide's items, pro-rata price to performance. It may turn out that a Jelco headshell with Oyaide tone-arm wires might actually sound fantastic in which case I will have to eat my words, not tried that combo.

There will be other headshells available that work very well, they may even cost less, pay your money and take your choice, as to not everyone can or would want to spend £200 on a headshell, that is a fair point but it's like saying who would spend £10,000 on a mains lead, plenty of people.

Dismissing something purely on cost is daft until you have actually heard it, the Oyaide headshell can be supplied to any member of the AOS on sale or return, just be careful when fitting your cartridge not to scratch the headshell.

Next someone will be saying why would anyone spend £225 on a turntable mat and another £225 on the matching weight, to hear it is to want it!:)

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0086.jpg

JohnM
14-05-2011, 13:47
Dismissing something purely on cost is daft until you have actually heard it, the Oyaide headshell can be supplied to any member of the AOS on sale or return

I was waiting for a salesman-type comment along those lines, and lo..... :eyebrows:

Anyways thanks to those who have checked the arm - I think I will send it back rather than mucking about with adjustment screws and - possibly - making it worse and then not being able to get a replacement. Knowing me I'd have a Laurel & Hardy moment, take that grub screw out and watch the whole arm fall apart in my hands haha!

Now I've almost got my Garrard 401 up and running (motor serviced this morning and running smoothly) in its new plinth, the temptation is very strong to ignore the fault & just put the arm on and spin some vinyl.

Must..... ressiisssttttttt........ :eek:

MCRU
14-05-2011, 15:33
I was waiting for a salesman-type comment along those lines, and lo..... :eyebrows:

Anyways thanks to those who have checked the arm - I think I will send it back rather than mucking about with adjustment screws and - possibly - making it worse and then not being able to get a replacement. Knowing me I'd have a Laurel & Hardy moment, take that grub screw out and watch the whole arm fall apart in my hands haha!

Now I've almost got my Garrard 401 up and running (motor serviced this morning and running smoothly) in its new plinth, the temptation is very strong to ignore the fault & just put the arm on and spin some vinyl.

Must..... ressiisssttttttt........ :eek:

Hello again matey,
Did not realize you had a 401, so have I, and guess what......................

THE OYAIDE MAT AND WEIGHT ON THE 401 IS A MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN.........

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):)

LET'S SEE SOME PICS OF YER PLINTH THEN???????????????

Marco
14-05-2011, 18:05
Hi Dave,


Yes, that would do the job. Don't undo it completely, just un-nip it and see if the collar/headshell can be moved. Certainly this was the case with many such arms in the distant past.


Cheers - I'll give that a go one day when I can be arsed... ;)

For the time being, the 0.5mm that azimuth is out can be fixed at the headshell.

John,

When it comes to justifying spending £200 on the Oyaide headshell, think of it in terms of upgrading to a better tonearm, as by fitting a superior headshell to the Jelco, you're effectively altering (improving) the resonance characteristics of the tonearm at its most critical point (the headshell), and the sonic effect, as Alex M recently discovered, can indeed be quite dramatic :)

In terms of sound-per-pound-value, the Oyaide headshell will often offer more than buying a better cartridge!

I guess that they cost so much because of the specialist nature of their design and that they're made in tiny quantities, compared to something like the Sumiko.

Marco.

JohnM
14-05-2011, 19:07
Dave / Marco,

I have no doubt that the headshell does make a worthwhile difference (it bloody should for that price), but it depends on one's budget threshold also. Not everyone - and I am one of those - can afford/justify spending £200 on a headshell, no matter how much better it makes the arm.

I purchased the 750D as it was at the very limit of what I could afford, but I COULD afford it. The headshell would turn this into a £550 arm; still 'budget' judging by some people's systems here, but most certainly not to me I'm afraid.

I've only had this arm for a couple days and was somewhat excited about finally getting together a vinyl playing system I'd be pleased with, without breaking the bank. Firstly I've had this azimuth alignment issue. Then within a day on here I've already been told the headshell is crap anyway, and I need to change it to really hear it sounding decent. Just so happens the person telling me has an online Hi-Fi shop... I have nothing against mods/improvements, but sometimes it can come across as pissing on someone's parade, or trying to make a quick buck...

Hope that hasn't sounded too snarky folks, and I do appreciate helpful comments/suggestions :). I just want to get a nice sounding system together, and get spinning. I don't want to keep having to throw money at it, or be told it's OK but could be better... I've seen this hobby go through many phases over the years, and I have to say I'm not particularly a fan of the 'cost no object' upgrade EVERYthing because what you have is never good enough philosophy.

...and I'm certainly not going to throw £225 on a turntable mat either :rolleyes: :ner:

Cheers peeps!

- J


EDIT: OK the mat DOES look nice :lol:

Reid Malenfant
14-05-2011, 19:20
<snip> I have no doubt that the headshell does make a worthwhile difference (it bloody should for that price), but it depends on one's budget threshold also. Not everyone - and I am one of those - can afford/justify spending £200 on a headshell, no matter how much better it makes the arm.

I purchased the 750D as it was at the very limit of what I could afford, but I COULD afford it. The headshell would turn this into a £550 arm; still 'budget' judging by some people's systems here, but most certainly not to me I'm afraid.

I've only had this arm for a couple days and was somewhat excited about finally getting together a vinyl playing system I'd be pleased with, without breaking the bank. Firstly I've had this azimuth alignment issue. Then within a day on here I've already been told the headshell is crap anyway, and I need to change it to really hear it sounding decent. Just so happens the person telling me has an online Hi-Fi shop... I have nothing against mods/improvements, but sometimes it can come across as pissing on someone's parade, or trying to make a quick buck...

Hope that hasn't sounded too snarky folks, and I do appreciate helpful comments/suggestions :). I just want to get a nice sounding system together, and get spinning. I don't want to keep having to throw money at it, or be told it's OK but could be better... I've seen this hobby go through many phases over the years, and I have to say I'm not particularly a fan of the 'cost no object' upgrade EVERYthing because what you have is never good enough philosophy.

Well said :) If i wanted to i could go & blow five figures on hifi tomorrow & not bat an eyelid, but i'm stuffed if i'm going to as i'm always looking for a way to do things cheaper but still get the same quality.

From what i gather you have a headshell that is looking kind of twisted on the arm. A Sumiko should solve that problem, check out fleabay auctions rather than buy it nows. I picked one up for less than £20 delivered in as new condition.

Good luck, be patient :eyebrows:

Gerry
14-05-2011, 19:41
I've had Oyaide headshells for 4 years now. They are good but back then they only cost £80!
I would not discount the Jelco/Sumiko HS-12, it is a very good headshell. I have an awful lot of headshells which I have tried over the years, these include Phase-Tech's, Audicrafts, Sony & JVC 1000s series, and most of the AT range which are very good too.
I've learn't thaty it is piontless to get too at hung up on it.
In a recent poll on the L-07D forum the Jelco/Sumiko was voted second best after the original Kenwood which was Boron.


Then within a day on here I've already been told the headshell is crap anyway, and I need to change it to really hear it sounding decent.

They are not crap...trust me! Keep with it and just adjust the azmuth. Setting up the cartridge and aligment properly will make greater impovements that any headshell at any price.

Marco
14-05-2011, 19:48
Hey, John, that's cool - I getcha! I do agree with your sentiments :)

I was simply outlining what the Oyaide headshell offers in terms of sound-per-pound value, for the benefit of everyone reading, not just you. In many circumstances I'd recommend its use instead of spending more money on a new cartridge.

Trust me, I'm not a fan of 'audiophile jewellery', and if I thought that's what the Oyaide was, it would get short shrift on here, regardless of who was selling it.


Setting up the cartridge and aligment properly will make greater impovements that any headshell at any price.


That is very true!

Marco.

JohnM
17-05-2011, 19:54
Well tonearm sent back to Duo-phonic who - according to the royal mail tracking thang - received it today.

I know the guy who was handling my order (Benjamin - the owner too?) had a nasty motorbike accident last week, so I imagine it'll be a while before I see a replacement arm.

Still - the 401 is at least looking nice in its new plinth, and running to speed (with the adjuster dead-on centre! Result - after 2 other 401s I owned in the past this is the first time that's happened!) after I took the motor apart at the weekend.

Fingers crossed for a quick recovery for Benjamin, and they nail the hit-and-run swine who put him in hospital (no broken bones from what I hear, but the shock must be pretty intense and kick in a day or so later).

- J

JohnM
24-05-2011, 11:52
My second Jelco SA-750D tonearm arrived today - thanks Duo-phonic! - and thankfully this one didn't exhibit the same problem as my first one. Whew! :cool:

Unfortunately - there had to be something didn't there! - the 25mm long mounting bolts are too short for my plinth, so I've had to order some longer ones from Ebay. Not a major problem but it just means an extra few days before I can get her up and running, plus I'm waiting on a tonearm lead too (I won't say which one as it's relatively cheap and I'd probably get laughed out of here ;) ).

Until I have a bit more cash to splash (and that's going to be a long while), I am using an AT95e with the Hyper Elliptical stylus from LP Gear, after having been impressed with Chris's LP captures in the other thread. One thing I've noticed is that the Jelco cartridge tags seem to be an incredibly tight fit - is this normal? I've pushed them on as far as I dare so that they're not at risk of popping off the cartridge tags, but should they slide on completely? Those wires look so delicate I don't want to risk screwing anything up. Wish the tags were a bit shorter I can see the 'forward' and 'rear' tags touching if the cartridge has to be mounted halfway or less :doh:

- John

Audioman
24-05-2011, 13:32
Tight tags are often a problem. If the tags have a split in them you can prize them open gently by inserting a small screwdriver to make them the right size. Anyway glad to hear the second arm does not have QC problems.

Ammonite Audio
24-05-2011, 15:06
I have found that the pins on the AT33PTG are a tad larger than on my other cartridges, so your comments about apparent tightness make sense. Not a problem at all until you use another cartridge, when you have to carefully squeeze the tags closed again! As long as you use a pair of good long nose pliers and are not ham-fisted, the tightness should not be an issue at all.

For mounting bolts, if you are anywhere near AHC in Farnham, then you can buy, over the counter, just three M4 bolts of whatever length you need. AHC is a fantastic place for fixings - see their website at http://www.ahc-camberley.co.uk/catalog/index.php . Their main shop is in Camberley.

DSJR
24-05-2011, 17:18
Hugo,

Not being a Jelco owner, I've not kept up with the revised bases you've made. Am I correct in assuming that you've stopped these now, or could you be persuaded to make some on a batch by batch basis? I'd love a 750, but it ain't gonna happen this year and by the time I'm ready, I suspect this arm will have been "discovered" and the price will shoot up accordingly as a third party will want their pound or three of flesh :(

JohnM
24-05-2011, 18:08
Thanks for the help/advice folks :thumbsup:

Shuggie, wish I'd read your post a bit sooner - ordered a set of 10 bolts on Ebay but would have used that supplier if I'd known. Still a very useful contact to have for the future - ta!

You're right about the tags on the AT95e - slightly wider than usual. I discovered it's actually the heatshrink on the Jelco headshell tags which makes it hard to slide the tags onto the cart. I did consider slitting the heatshrink but they seem to be on snugly now, even though they're not 100% all the way on.

Performed a rough alignment of the cartridge to see if those tags would cause any trouble, and they would foul, but luckily the tags on the cartridge end protrude into the gap between the tags at the back (so they're staggered looking from the side). If the cartridge tags were positioned further towards the top I would have had problems.

Think at some point in the future I'll make my own headshell leads with smaller tags (if available!). Have some hair-thin pure silk-covered silver wire here so that's on the list of things to do.... along with all the other Hi-Fi mods ;)

- John

JohnM
24-05-2011, 18:12
Hugo,

Not being a Jelco owner, I've not kept up with the revised bases you've made. Am I correct in assuming that you've stopped these now, or could you be persuaded to make some on a batch by batch basis? I'd love a 750, but it ain't gonna happen this year and by the time I'm ready, I suspect this arm will have been "discovered" and the price will shoot up accordingly as a third party will want their pound or three of flesh :(

The price of the 750D has already gone up in price twice since I first ordered the arm from Duo-phonic 3 weeks back :stalks:

Ammonite Audio
24-05-2011, 19:39
Hugo,

Not being a Jelco owner, I've not kept up with the revised bases you've made. Am I correct in assuming that you've stopped these now, or could you be persuaded to make some on a batch by batch basis? I'd love a 750, but it ain't gonna happen this year and by the time I'm ready, I suspect this arm will have been "discovered" and the price will shoot up accordingly as a third party will want their pound or three of flesh :(

I am quietly looking at the feasibility of running another, much larger batch, with a view to selling via eBay. eBay, for its faults, takes quite a lot of the administration of a sale out of my hands, but their fees are not to be sneezed at. I am hoping that by having a larger batch made, the unit cost will reduce by roughly what eBay would charge me for selling them, thereby keeping the ticket price more or less the same. It's early days and the upfront investment is not insignificant, but I'm quite tempted. I definitely need a wider marketplace than the forums provide, though.