Is this man more naïve than irrelevant – or vice versa?

[Neil McCauley]

Or perhaps more accurately, is what this man says (and presumably believes) this man more naïve than irrelevant – or vice versa?

http://bit.ly/jzTZUt

[jantheman]

vice versa I think.....:eyebrows:

[Barry]

As a Christian he will be guided by, and try to follow, the Lord's Prayer:

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
In earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.

Amen.

(My emphasis)

Justice may have been done, but it has not, as yet, been seen to have been done.

[Neil McCauley]

As a Christian he will be guided by, and try to follow, the Lord's Prayer:

Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
In earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory,
For ever and ever.

Amen.

(My emphasis)

Justice may have been done, but it has not, as yet, been seen to have been done.

An interesting point and I thank you for it. There is I suggest though an intriguing flaw in the ethos.

It assumes that those that do the forgiving are still alive to do so. It is irrational - to say nothing of downright insulting - to suppose that the survivors should offer forgiveness on behalf of the dead.

My guess is that every deceased woman stoned to death in the cause of misguided / corrupted religion might (and that’s just the start), if it were possible to ask, might be less inclined to be so generous.

And anyway, I can’t trust the utterances of a man that wears a purple frock as part of his uniform. Hardly breaking down barriers I feel.

[Barry]

I'm not trying to make any point here - my reply was prompted by reading today that a French Cardinal is recommending that all Catholics ought to pray for the soul of bin-Laden as they should, following the teachings of Jesus.

I'm agnostic in all this.

Regards

[John]

Forgiveness is part of the Christain values and I actually like to think it what makes us stand apart from those capable of such evil. Whilst I think the world is better off without Bin Larden I am part of the minority here that does not rejoice in any killing

[Reid Malenfant]

There appears to be a rather large bunch of people regretting that Bin Laden was killed when he wasn't armed :scratch: I can't say i'm overjoyed at it but fairs fair imo:-

I think they ought to think of those that were in the same situation in the World Trade Centre when a couple of aircraft hit them... Didn't the same person i mentioned organise & condone it, or have i got an extraordinarily bad memory?

[Neil McCauley]

Forgiveness is part of the Christain values and I actually like to think it what makes us stand apart from those capable of such evil. Whilst I think the world is better off without Bin Larden I am part of the minority here that does not rejoice in any killing

As I've said previously John, you are truly one of the most humane men I've ever met. And I reiterate that my time with you affected me positively. I'm grateful and yes like you - I don't rejoice in the killing and yet ..... and yet I feel the World is better off without him. Two conflicting emotions which I find hard to reconcile in my increasingly feeble mind.

Warm regards

Howard

[John]

I agree the world better off without him and I have no doubt that it was the right thing to do but thats where I draw the line
Marc seems the latest is he was not armed
I am not arguing that it was wrong for the Amercians to kill him but thats it for me

[Reid Malenfant]

I think killing is wrong to, i hope a lot of people do & i wish everyone did! However, after killing a few thousand people & knowing he'll keep trying to kill more i think i'd come down on the side of humanity & say the greater good has been done :) E2A:- Or from the other side:- The lesser evil ;)

[John]

Marc I actually think we saying the same thing in the end

[Reid Malenfant]

Probably John, you do lose a good bit of meaning to words when not face to face :eyebrows:

[Tim]

Whilst I think the world is better off without Bin Larden I am part of the minority here that does not rejoice in any killing
You are not in a minority John and in our so called civilised society, is an assassination squad that executes an unarmed man by head shot, what we are now calling justice? - to me that's revenge. I'm not condoning anything he may or may not have done, but one has to think 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes'?

[Barry]

Forgiveness is part of the Christain values and I actually like to think it what makes us stand apart from those capable of such evil. Whilst I think the world is better off without Bin Larden I am part of the minority here that does not rejoice in any killing

No John, your not in a minority. Like the vast majority, I think the world is better off without bin-Laden; just as I wasn't overly distraught on hearing of the death of the Ayatollha Khomeini.

The assasination of bin Laden will, in the long term, make the world a safer place for everyone (remember that Al Queda have been responsible for the death of more innocent Muslims than non-Muslims). It is right and proper that his demise was brought about by the Americans. But it is with the, possibly understandable but not excusable, rejoicing and triumphalism that I'm having difficulty coping.

Regards

[Welder]

What Tim said and a lot more I just cant be arsed to go over yet again.

This Christian is good and Muslim is bad stuff is so, well, ill informed and bigoted.
Christianity hasn’t got the greatest record with regard to human rights and equal treatment of women now has it.
How the f**k are we all going to get along in this world if colour, gender and religion are what we base our opinions of people on?

If we could just describe Bin Laden as a terrorist and forget about which religious faction he claimed to represent and then deal with the issues of law and justice rather than war and retribution we might just come out looking at least a bit more intelligent and humane than those who commit these atrocities from whichever faction they may spring from.

Yep, you can call me naive if you like, call whatever you like in fact. But, I’m not a religious person. I don’t have a faith. If I did I would wish it to be some faith in my fellow man/women and on the current showing here it aint looking promising.

[Beechwoods]

What's behind the link Howard? I'm somewhat cautious about clicking on obscured links that might get me into trouble. That's the thing about these 'shortened' URLs, there's no hint as to what they're about when you hover over them :scratch:

[Tim]

What's behind the link Howard? I'm somewhat cautious about clicking on obscured links that might get me into trouble. That's the thing about these 'shortened' URLs, there's no hint as to what they're about when you hover over them :scratch:
Here you go;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/05/bin-laden-uncomfortable-feeling-rowan-williams
Nothing bad there Nick ;)

[Neil McCauley]

What's behind the link Howard? I'm somewhat cautious about clicking on obscured links that might get me into trouble. That's the thing about these 'shortened' URLs, there's no hint as to what they're about when you hover over them :scratch:

Nothing sinister I assure you. Some links, especially those to Amazon recommendations run to 3 lines. This doesn't appeal to my sense of neatness.

Tonight on other posts in other sections you'll see that the links haven't been compacted. That's 'cos they were short to start with. No conspiracy here. If in doubt, then avoid. Works for me.

[Beechwoods]

:lol: These days it seems like there's conspiracy everywhere!

Thanks for lifting the lid on what's behind the little URL ;)

[John]

What Tim said and a lot more I just cant be arsed to go over yet again.

This Christian is good and Muslim is bad stuff is so, well, ill informed and bigoted.
Christianity hasn’t got the greatest record with regard to human rights and equal treatment of women now has it.
How the f**k are we all going to get along in this world if colour, gender and religion are what we base our opinions of people on?

If we could just describe Bin Laden as a terrorist and forget about which religious faction he claimed to represent and then deal with the issues of law and justice rather than war and retribution we might just come out looking at least a bit more intelligent and humane than those who commit these atrocities from whichever faction they may spring from.

Yep, you can call me naive if you like, call whatever you like in fact. But, I’m not a religious person. I don’t have a faith. If I did I would wish it to be some faith in my fellow man/women and on the current showing here it aint looking promising.

Humanity can be a double edged sword

[Barry]

You are not in a minority John and in our so called civilised society, is an assassination squad that executes an unarmed man by head shot, what we are now calling justice? - to me that's revenge. I'm not condoning anything he may or may not have done, but one has to think 'quis custodiet ipsos custodes'?

Nemo!

[Neil McCauley]

Humanity can be a double edged sword

And so can humility.

Turn the other cheek - and get that one slashed too!

[Neil McCauley]

Maybe the US SEALS should have relied on harsh language, or sarcasm? Or possibly invited the nutter to appear on Desert Island Discs? Personally though if it were me, in hostile territory, I'd put my trust in the JMH method which relied (and presumably still does) on "A Blue steel '44"

Mr Hendrix, where are you when we need you?

[jantheman]

Religion of all types has been responsible for the taking of more lives in the name of their god any other cause. Ban it.....and lets all live together

[goraman]

An interesting point and I thank you for it. There is I suggest though an intriguing flaw in the ethos.

It assumes that those that do the forgiving are still alive to do so. It is irrational - to say nothing of downright insulting - to suppose that the survivors should offer forgiveness on behalf of the dead.

My guess is that every deceased woman stoned to death in the cause of misguided / corrupted religion might (and that’s just the start), if it were possible to ask, might be less inclined to be so generous.

And anyway, I can’t trust the utterances of a man that wears a purple frock as part of his uniform. Hardly breaking down barriers I feel.

Forgiveness is given to those who repent and as for absolution.
Has Osama said I am very sorry,Forgive me?
I think not.

The Arch Bishops comments only serve to give future terrorists fuel for hatred.
If he thinks Muslims will say,Oh the Catholics are our friends now,let's make nice then he should be called the Stupid-crazy Arch Bishop of Canterbury.
Trying to appease them, only serves in making the Church look cowardly.
I hope the Pope slaps that silly hat off his head and tells him to shut up,I don.t like our church saying anything just to look PC.
The church has a responsibility to to be one the side of good not evil.

[Neil McCauley]

As was stated on Radio 4 today, along the lines of ........ 'Obama must be pissed off. No sooner has he got one misguided bearded cleric out of the way then another one turns up'. Quite so.

[Tim]

Can anyone really take someone who dresses up like this seriously?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/06/archbishopPA190606_228x340.jpg

[Neil McCauley]

Can anyone really take someone who dresses up like this seriously?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/06/archbishopPA190606_228x340.jpg

Such a WASTE of terrific advertising space on the headgear. Such a pity!

[goraman]

What Tim said and a lot more I just cant be arsed to go over yet again.

This Christian is good and Muslim is bad stuff is so, well, ill informed and bigoted.
Christianity hasn’t got the greatest record with regard to human rights and equal treatment of women now has it.
How the f**k are we all going to get along in this world if colour, gender and religion are what we base our opinions of people on?

If we could just describe Bin Laden as a terrorist and forget about which religious faction he claimed to represent and then deal with the issues of law and justice rather than war and retribution we might just come out looking at least a bit more intelligent and humane than those who commit these atrocities from whichever faction they may spring from.

Yep, you can call me naive if you like, call whatever you like in fact. But, I’m not a religious person. I don’t have a faith. If I did I would wish it to be some faith in my fellow man/women and on the current showing here it aint looking promising.

Dude,there stated goal is convert us or kill us, and in the last 100 years how meany Christian women have been buried up to the shoulders and stoned to death? For God's sake man put things in prospective.Christians are not going around the world plotting attacks on non Christians paid for through the church.We don't go around beheading people in the name of God either.And ware in the Bible dose it say we MUST kill,Tax or enslave non Christians?
Where dose it say never make a Muslim or Jew your friend?
If your going to compare religions know something about both of them.
There is no forgiveness in Islam!
They chant ALAH HO AKBAR = God is Merciful while showing no mercy themselves,beheading anyone they wish (even other Muslims).
I haven't seen that happening where I go to church.

[Reid Malenfant]

Who's the muppet? :eyebrows:

4472

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
to be honest, i have read this thread with sadness and anger as it echo's of the two main reasons that divide us or unite us, religion and politics.
my honest opinion [for what its worth] on religion is, the world would be a much better place without it, if we just lived by the god given values that are in us from the time we are born ie; the sense of whats right and whats wrong, then we can truly be judged by our own individual actions.
yes, i believe there is an inteligent designer that created us, and to be honest i imagine he/she/it must be looking at us with total disgust judging by the way we behave towards our fellow human beings at times.
may i remind you all that this is a forum where we are all united by a common interest, a love for music and everything accociated with it. sadly religion and politics rarely acheive such a feat!
Anthony,TD...

[The Grand Wazoo]

I think this thread has gone as far as it should be allowed and I must say that one or two members have recently gone down in my estimation in the last few days.
I declare this thread shut.