Gromit's music centre... [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Gromit

04-02-2008, 09:27

Nice system by the way Gromit, I've always been keen on the NVA equipment - it gets rave reviews from it's followers and is excellent value.

Thanks - I recently took advantage of the NVA 14 day money back trial. I tried the P50sa pre with a pair of A70 mono's which impressed me greatly. Only downer was that the comparison was so close to the Puresound A30 it was almost too close to call - what one amp lost on the swings, the other one gained on the roundabouts as it were. If I'd had the amps for longer than the allowed 14 days I think they may well have overtaken the A30 as they really started to come on song over the last couple of days.

Anyway, a good used A60 came up, so to go with it I ordered a new P50 and some LS1 cable from Richard and now have this rig. The nice thing is it hasn't meant I've had to sell the A30 and can listen to each at will over the next few months without any pressure (except from my far better other half!). :D

The A60 definitely has better control over the Royds; at low volume the A30 sounded fabulous through them, but at more realistic levels (ie when the neighbours are out) there was definitely a slurring, a sense of a slight lessening in the energy/urgency dept as the bass tended to saturate. Another good thing is that my electricity bill should now go back down again - running a hot valve amp for 7-8 hours a day definitely burns quite a bit of juice!

Downsides to the NVA rig? Not many - it isn't quite as tonally rich as the Puresound and has a slightly harder, cooler presentation. Saying that, on solo piano music it really is quite something - its ability to re-create the attack of a piano note is clearer, and the tonal changes brought by different levels of attack (ie soft/hard touch) are more evident.

For both these amps it has to be said that getting this sort of sound quality for such relatively small outlay is something to celebrate.

Oh....and another good thing with the P50 is that I can use my headphones amp without having to fanny around disconnecting/re-connecting interconnects! :)

JonR

05-02-2008, 21:16

I have to tell you Richard, that's the neatest I've ever seen your system look..

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_1838.jpg

I see you've managed to acquire some extra matching Quadraspire stands - I've always admired their clean simple lines. If Hutter didn't exist I'd definitely would have considered Quadraspire for my own system.

How are you getting on with the NVA?

Marco

05-02-2008, 21:29

Hi Jon,

Welcome to the forum!

Nice to see you here :)

Marco.

Gromit

05-02-2008, 21:57

I have to tell you Richard, that's the neatest I've ever seen your system look..

I see you've managed to acquire some extra matching Quadraspire stands - I've always admired their clean simple lines. If Hutter didn't exist I'd definitely would have considered Quadraspire for my own system.

How are you getting on with the NVA?

Hi Jon - as Marco said, welcome to the forum :)

Thanks for the kind comments also. :) I've always had the 5 QS shelves and a selection of posts though.

The NVA kit is working very well - I've had the A60 for 4 days now and haven't switched it off in that time, as a result it's loosened up nicely and is a very articulate and surprisingly 'grippy' amplifier. The power amp's not new, whereas the P50 is only a few days old. One observation is that the amp seems to like to work fairly hard. Maybe this is down to the passive pre offering less resistance to the incoming signal at higher volume setting? I'm only guessing here of course. :)

Was listening to Talk Talk Spirit of Eden (on vinyl) earlier and at higher levels it sounded simply wonderful (neighbours were out thank goodness). Dynamics were more vivid, vocals cleaner and with more body and inflection. I believe Royd did a bit of work with NVA some years ago - perhaps I'm reaping the benefit of that just now. :)

The comforting thing is that the system seems to have settled again - and as a result I'm sleeping better too. :D

JonR

05-02-2008, 22:09

Thanks - I must admit this is quite a nice looking place. So many forums seem to suffer from aesthetics issues. This one seems quite well laid out. I also see Mr C and Mr Dunn are here too - I may have to pop back and have a chat with them from time to time.

The power amp's not new, whereas the P50 is only a few days old. One observation is that the amp seems to like to work fairly hard. Maybe this is down to the passive pre offering less resistance to the incoming signal at higher volume setting? I'm only guessing here of course.

I've still got my P50 that I bought from Richard some time back, and one of the main things I have found with it is that it adds absolutely nothing to the signal at all whatsoever. So yes - the A60 really is having to do all the work and maybe the fact that it is being worked hard is what is bringing the best out of it.

Interestingly, and you may already be aware of this from elsewhere, I brought my P50 to a bake-off about 6 months ago where, to the surprise of all present, it seemed to work exceptionally well with the host's monobloc digital amps.

Gromit

05-02-2008, 22:15

Interestingly, and you may already be aware of this from elsewhere, I brought my P50 to a bake-off about 6 months ago where, to the surprise of all present, it seemed to work exceptionally well with the host's monobloc digital amps.

Aah - hadn't read about that one Jon, most interesting indeed. :)

I have thought about giving my P50 a go into the Puresound A30, using that as a power amp with the volume on max. That way I would gain a tape loop to drive my headphone amp. :)

Saying that though, the A60 sounds so damn good now I'm not sure it would be any better - just different.

JonR

05-02-2008, 22:33

Aah - hadn't read about that one Jon, most interesting indeed. :)

I have thought about giving my P50 a go into the Puresound A30, using that as a power amp with the volume on max. That way I would gain a tape loop to drive my headphone amp. :)

Saying that though, the A60 sounds so damn good now I'm not sure it would be any better - just different.

You've just reminded me that the A30 can run in power-amp mode only so at least you have the opportunity now to do the comparison if you feel like it! I know that from my own experience of trying Richard's power amps at home, in conjunction with the P50, is the extent to which they major on detail - I remember being amazed at some of the low-level information that got picked up during the home dem. If detail and insight is your bag, the A60 will be a no-brainer I should think!

Gromit

05-02-2008, 22:46

I remember being amazed at some of the low-level information that got picked up during the home dem. If detail and insight is your bag, the A60 will be a no-brainer I should think!

This tallies exactly with what I've found - the NVA amp also isn't too kind to some duff recordings but tbh I'm not that bothered. On the other hand, its dynamic shading is better than the valve amp, the ability to differentiate between tenuto/legato and stronger, more accented attack is very clear. Speaking in analogies, it's as if the music has been in for a service and all the nuts and bolts have been torqued up properly, but not to the detriment of freedom of expression.

The valve amp definitely majors on tonal clues - on vocals it is superb for example - but the NVA bites back, being more articulate and nimble with much better bass. Plenty of swings and roundabouts here, but simply loads to enjoy from both camps. I may try the P50/A30 combination tomorrow and report back. :)

Marco

05-02-2008, 23:08

Thanks - I must admit this is quite a nice looking place. So many forums seem to suffer from aesthetics issues.

It didn't happen by accident, Jon, so thanks for your comments.

I presume that you've read the Naim mains lead thread? ;)

Marco.

jandl100

06-02-2008, 09:36

Yup, I have to join in on the "NVA make great amps" theme of this thread.

Thanks to the good services of a certain Richard Dunn I've tried the A30 & A60 stereo power amps and the A80 monoblocks. I am now a very proud A80 owner!

They are simply amazing, and sadly the amps do get noticeably better the further up the range you go.

For those that like internals, here's a pic of the insides of one of my A80 amps that RD sent me during construction .....

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/NVAA80internalslo-rez.jpg

And at a "mere" £1k a pair, with NVA's 14 day trial scheme, these really are a no-brainer if you are looking for power amps up to £3k or so, imho.

Oh, and RD is a really fine chap to buy from.

Stunning work there, Richard D. :)

Gromit

06-02-2008, 09:59

They are simply amazing, and sadly the amps do get noticeably better the further up the range you go.

I wish you'd stop saying things like that.... :(

Although as you well know I'm measuring up the shelves for the addition of some more black boxes ;)

Anyway Jerry - please put up a thread with some pics of your own gear aswell. Would love to see it :)

jandl100

06-02-2008, 10:28

Anyway Jerry - please put up a thread with some pics of your own gear aswell. Would love to see it :)

Have a look in Page 1 of this thread for a nice viewing of some of my systems ... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3

This was from before we started individual threads.

Gromit

06-02-2008, 11:57

Have a look in Page 1 of this thread for a nice viewing of some of my systems ... http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3

This was from before we started individual threads.

Maybe I should look a bit harder... :o

WikiBoy

06-02-2008, 12:25

Thanks - I recently took advantage of the NVA 14 day money back trial. I tried the P50sa pre with a pair of A70 mono's which impressed me greatly. Only downer was that the comparison was so close to the Puresound A30 it was almost too close to call - what one amp lost on the swings, the other one gained on the roundabouts as it were. If I'd had the amps for longer than the allowed 14 days I think they may well have overtaken the A30 as they really started to come on song over the last couple of days.

Just a small point. The 14 days is arbitrary, if you need more you can have more.

Vinyl Grinder

06-02-2008, 23:58

Gromit

14-02-2008, 14:55

Couple more pics...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/System22small.jpg

A60...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/System23small.jpg

Spacedeck...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/NAS1small.jpg

Filterlab

14-02-2008, 14:58

Gromit

14-02-2008, 15:07

What cables are you using with your NVA amps Richard?

I keep looking at NVA equipment on eBay but I'm constantly put off by potential problems of cabling and using a non-passive pre-amp. It says that any cable over 200 picofarads per metre is not advised but I haven't a clue where to find that kind of info about my cables.

My pre now (which is my DAC) has 5v variable output so is very far from a being a passive input in terms of voltage.

Hi Rob - I'm using NVA LS5 speaker cable (bi-wire config) and for the pre-power & CD-pre I've some NVA Super Soundpipes. Normal Soundpipe for the Slee phonesa amp.

I've a 6m set of LS1 speaker cable that may be coming up for sale soon (if you or anyone else might be interested).

Richard'll be able to give you the low-down on cable/passive/active compatability though - it all goes way above my head! :)

Gromit

24-02-2008, 09:20

Update...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/System28small.jpg

Been having a dabble with some of Salisbury's finest (NAC72/NAP180; Hi-Cap's arriving on monday). There are some Avondale 821 boards to try aswell, loaned by a very helpful member of one of the other forums. :)

The NVA rig is sat in the other room keeping warm and cosy on some 240v/ac but will plug it into the system later this week to see how the two set-ups compare. Should be fun! :)

Gromit

08-03-2008, 13:58

Been having a spring clean and move around. I got my old Audiotech table out of the loft and put it under the NAS. It's made a major improvement, tightening things up noticably. Losing the spikes off the top of it and using strips of Dynamat to stop the metal tubes ringing has helped.

I had wondered, from previous fiddling, that the Spacedeck doesn't like spiked supports as it causes resonances to be set up. Seems that may have been right as it's a much more free-flowing but dynamic presenation now. :)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/System38small.jpg

Filterlab

08-03-2008, 14:49

Nice one, I love tweaks like that. I'm going to sort out some kind of isolation for my front channels on the 5.1 system, they're Polks and for some reason have no spikes (?) which makes them a bit 'fat' in the bass.

Simple stuff always seems to work wonders.

Gromit

09-03-2008, 21:57

Simple stuff always seems to work wonders.

Indeed it does Rob. :)

I'm quite pleasantly surprised, mostly regarding the improvement in dynamics. Whereas before the NAS whilst all very sweet and 'pleasant' (yuk) sounding, it now has its teeth back. Most notably, bass is improved and now has much more weight and detachment from the overall sonic picture. For want of a better description there's less 'hash' - less 'noise' going on behind what really matters.

It's a win-win result...just the sort I like. :)

WikiBoy

09-03-2008, 23:31

Indeed it does Rob. :)

I'm quite pleasantly surprised, mostly regarding the improvement in dynamics. Whereas before the NAS whilst all very sweet and 'pleasant' (yuk) sounding, it now has its teeth back. Most notably, bass is improved and now has much more weight and detachment from the overall sonic picture. For want of a better description there's less 'hash' - less 'noise' going on behind what really matters.

It's a win-win result...just the sort I like. :)

If you want a tech-ie explanation it is all down to coupling or uncoupling and the degree to which it is applied. It is fitting mechanical filters or removing them, the physical equivalent of LCR.

If everything is right then in order to maintain that full transmission with a mechanically resonant object (i.e. something that is using motion to derive electrical current, turntable / or something that is using electrical current to derive motion, loudspeaker) you must couple as rigidly as possible. BUT you may not want everything that object is giving you as it will have an inherent timbre, or peaks at resonent frequencies. That is why sometimes mechanical capacitors are necessary, simplest being bluetac or half squash ball etc.

Nothing is ever perfect in the world of audio, everything is a compromise.

With relatively low weight sprung turntables like Linn normally decoupling is important (hence the springs) and then rigid coupling from that point back to mechanical earth. With relatively light unsprung turntables like Rega then more often than not some form of decoupling becomes necessary. With heavy unsprung turntables like your NAS it is using mass to absorb resonance (turn it to lower frequency) but it is still important to have a rigid mechanical earth, even your current stand can be improved on in this respect. The four legs are creating mechanical earth loops. Get a single pillar rigid spiked speaker stand and mount the turntable on that. Spike both floor and turntable. This will be like having a new turntable.

Marco

10-03-2008, 08:37

WikiBoy

10-03-2008, 09:28

Richard,

I understand where you're coming from, but what speaker stands do you know that have a top plate big enough to support a turntable?

Apart from that, excellent post!

I particularly agree with this:

Amen to that! :exactly:

Marco.

If you are spiking to the base of the NAS then size doesn't matter. In fact within reason (stability) the smaller the better to cut down on the length of duplicating mechanical earth paths. Perfect would be single spike but it obviously would be unstable, minimum is three.

Gromit

10-03-2008, 11:57

Filterlab

10-03-2008, 12:10

Good info Richard, lately I've found that 'as rigid as possible' has been the most beneficial support to my ears. It just seems to 'shape' the sound of the system to my tastes. It seems odd to me that it works given that my system has no moving components nowadays, but still it works and that's good enough for me.

I have an old box absolutely full of halved squash balls, sorbothane thingies, spikes and threads and bits of glass and all sorts of paraphenalia that I use for experimentation, I love the playing about bit. :)

WikiBoy

10-03-2008, 12:55

Thanks for the info Richard - I think I just about understood it. :)

I'm on my tod this weekend (no little'un running around to knock things over) so may try one of the speakers stands under the NAS, would be interesting to hear what it does. I've still got my old Kan II stands to use as spares for the Royds.

Will report back. :)

Think of it as the opposite to musical instrument design. In designing a clarinet you want resonance, but you want that resonance to be musically correct, in tune, and you are looking for the typical timbre / sound of a clarinet as opposed to oboe, bassoon etc. Tuned resonant frequency of reed, body, bell, throat, note holes, timber (or not) used in construction, even key and pad all join in to create this *character*. And you have to bend yourself (train) to be in sympathy with that character.

In hi-fi design you have to selectively take out as much character as you can so it doesn't interfere with the character of the musical instrument (playing a musical instrument *through* another musical instrument). But the same as in musical instrument design it is instinct and ear that creates masters not scientific theory and equation and test gear. You cannot design a clarinet with test gear nor can you design hi-fi with test gear, you can get the genus and the application, but then the ear of the maestro :eyebrows: has to be applied.

Try to get rid of all and you end up with a big wet flannel, understand what can be kept, and sometimes enhanced, creates song. And when a system sings your natural test equipment on the back of you neck (little hairs), which are directly linked into your emotional recognition system, tell you it is right.

Gromit

10-03-2008, 13:40

Nice analogy Richard - and one that funnily enough ties in exactly with what Tom Fletcher at Notts Analogue relayed to me when I visited the NAS factory a couple of years ago. He went on to describe how some TT manufacturers seem to be designing (in his words) 'brass violins'. It's just plaing wrong.

He also took great pains to describe to me (in some wonderfully colourful analogies) how the control of resonances, the safe-keeping of the good ones, and the desire to get rid of the bad ones as much as possible, caused him to end up with the turntables he now has on his product list. Thoroughly nice guy too - shoots from the hip and as result has upmost my respect. :)

Gromit

13-03-2008, 08:22

Latest acquisitions in the black box dept...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/System39small.jpg

NVA Phono2/psu & P90sa pre amp. :)

Filterlab

13-03-2008, 08:42

You like your NVA gear mate. I'd love to try the monoblocks but the garb says they're for passive pre-amps only. Shame.

WikiBoy

13-03-2008, 09:57

You like your NVA gear mate. I'd love to try the monoblocks but the garb says they're for passive pre-amps only. Shame.

If you want to use them with an active pre then you have to buy this as well.

Volume Control and Circuitry for NVA Power Amps.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270209584190&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

It act as a L pad preset and gives enough attenuation and decoupling at about 95% to work well with active pre if you have to use them. The only logical reason for using is in cinema systems or for active speakers with long line level cable runs.

Marco

13-03-2008, 11:05

You like your NVA gear mate. I'd love to try the monoblocks but the garb says they're for passive pre-amps only. Shame.

I've never heard NVA stuff, but it gets a good rep and I like its 'simple but business-like' look :)

It would be interesting comparing them to the ECS monoblocks ;)

Marco.

Mike Reed

13-03-2008, 17:07

If you want to use them with an active pre then you have to buy this as well.

Volume Control and Circuitry for NVA Power Amps.

Excuse my ignorance, but when I went to the E-bay link the blurb stated as a principle that ' the best component is only surpassed by no component at all' ( not verbatim).

Yet to use an active pre. with NVA amps I have to add a volume control?

Unless I've lost the plot, I can only imagine that the sensitivity of the amps is much higher than usual to accept the lower output that I imagine a passive pre. would emit. I have little technical nous so can only used (flawed?) logic.

As my amp. situation is parlous at present (whether to add 2 more 135s to bi-amp, or bugger it and go for a 300/500 or go down a different path), I have been taking heed of Gromit's musings on this and P.F. forums.

NVA is is East Anglia (useful) and Gromit's observations on sound and presentational differences between Naim and NVA (not to mention the cost differences!), especially with classical CDs and LPs, has made me think.

Fascinating thread, this! (each to his own, I s'pose!)

WikiBoy

13-03-2008, 23:07

Excuse my ignorance, but when I went to the E-bay link the blurb stated as a principle that ' the best component is only surpassed by no component at all' ( not verbatim).

Yet to use an active pre. with NVA amps I have to add a volume control?

Unless I've lost the plot, I can only imagine that the sensitivity of the amps is much higher than usual to accept the lower output that I imagine a passive pre. would emit. I have little technical nous so can only used (flawed?) logic.

As my amp. situation is parlous at present (whether to add 2 more 135s to bi-amp, or bugger it and go for a 300/500 or go down a different path), I have been taking heed of Gromit's musings on this and P.F. forums.

NVA is is East Anglia (useful) and Gromit's observations on sound and presentational differences between Naim and NVA (not to mention the cost differences!), especially with classical CDs and LPs, has made me think.

Fascinating thread, this! (each to his own, I s'pose!)

You can try-ee and if no like-ee it costs yer nowt.

Your thinking is basically right, but an L pad is just two resistors, in this case one is variable. Otherwise the input stage would have to be buggered around with. Lower resistance / increase capacitance reset the gain around the first stage - too much agg, and you can't mess some things without altering the balance elsewhere. The amp is designed to look at a passive pot or switched attenuator, so just think of your active pre or processor as a source. I have a couple of customers with both cinema processors as source and another one with a valve pre (Croft I think) he insists on using and they all seem happy. In the case of a home cinema system there is even an advantage as it give another way the balance the channels if the room is squif. In an active system it is another way to balance the drivers instead of messing with the crossovers.

Gromit

14-03-2008, 11:18

I've never heard NVA stuff, but it gets a good rep and I like its 'simple but business-like' look :)

Marco.

At the risk of appearing like a lazy git I've just pasted my thoughts from what I said on another forum...

Having spent a lot of time listening to these amps I'm more convinced that they're a very wide open window on what's fed them. They don't do 'applied' musicality (ie they don't imprint their own sonic signature) rather they allow the music created (or not!) by the source to do its own thing. If the music bounces/rocks so does the amp.

Of course I would say my Naim rig (72/Hi/180) is a faster, more bouncy amp with bags of life and pep but whilst this is fun on the right material, on a lot of stuff it's just not right. It hits harder than the NVA (although with the better P90sa pre amp this gap has narrowed somewhat) but with some music one does get the impression that it's a sledgehammer being used to break an egg. On classical music the NVA's so far ahead of the Naim rig it ain't funny. On rock/funk etc the gap is much narrower.

It's a shame I still haven't got it to compare but the NVA isn't far off the sound or sheer sense of 'rightness' of my hot-rodded WAD KEL84. Trust me that's a compliment. Where the NVA scores is that it has much stronger speaker-driving power, as one would expect of course.

For the time being, the NVA rig is doin' da business quite nicely. :)

Filterlab

14-03-2008, 12:26

Lazy git!

:D

Gromit

14-03-2008, 12:28

Lazy git!

:D

Why thank you. :lol:

Filterlab

14-03-2008, 12:35

WikiBoy

14-03-2008, 13:20

My pleasure. :)

Richard, I'm still a little confused with using an active pre-amp with an NVA power amp. Help me with this:

My DAC has a variable output which I use as a volume control. It goes straight into my Audiolab power amp in the same way as an active pre-amp would. Why would I need to use a passive pre-amp (or the volume pack) between my DAC and an NVA power amp given that the output voltage is variable anyway? Is it just a case of sensitivity and if so would the same result be obtained by reducing the input gain at the computer end?

Not a challenge, just technical questions to which I don't know the answer.

Cheers!

Synergy, partnership, empathy.

All problems we face in putting a system together is external interface. All problems a designer is faced with is internal interface. 100 times more inportant than what devices are used.

Many many years ago in a little village called Hatley St George in Cambridgeshire, sitting in a freezing barn of a workshop having split up with my first wife as she wanted me to get a job :) and I just wanted to build hi-fi and make music. I didn't have the op-amps (TDA1034) I needed for a pre and my test unit was out on loan. Well I needed to test a power amp I had just built so I just put the pot in the box. Well I spent the next day just listening to music and bugger the customers :lol: Convinced we were all barking up the wrong tree and simplicity was where reality was I then spent time ripping things out until it all blew up :lol: then I backed off and put some things back. Basically I have spent the last 20 odd years doing the same thing (apart from 5 years being so pissed off with the industry I couldn't be bothered), so I recon I have some knowledge on the subject.

A power amp designed for use with an active pre is *not* necessarily compatible with a passive pre-amp. It may appear so and may in reality in musical terms actually be so but that is luck. The same is the case visa versa. Having decided passive was the way to go my power amps designs were changed to balance the interface. Things that need changing are 1 some more gain as the pre-gain is no longer there, only attenuation. 2 remove more feedback in the front end. 3 change loading characteristics to cope with a now variable output impedence from the passive.

This last item is the crunch in terms of compatibility as by lowering the input capacitance so as not to get a "tone control" effect as volume is changed you make the input more susceptable to the inherent instability in some active pres. In other words you do not comp it out. Also it lessens the effect of high capacitance interconnects when using a passive (but this is still *very* important). You also increase the input resistance to balance the pot or sa.

So to cut a long story short - a power amp *designed* to work with a passive can be overloaded and driven into instability by *some* active designs. Inversly a normal power amp designed for active pre can be made to sound dull at low volumes by a passive pre. - interface - interface - interface.

So only solution, break that interface or dependence, by putting a pad (electrical) in between. It will diminish certain parameters in a small way, but not as much as not being there would.

As simple as I can make it I am afraid.

Filterlab

14-03-2008, 14:16

Ahhh, thanks for that mate, I understand now. In my mind it was only a question of gain and overload, but I guess that's why I'm a consumer and not an engineer. :)

Filterlab

15-03-2008, 11:04

...We are one of the highest profit industries around, for every £10 spent on components and labour you get another £80 as contribution to manufacturing overheads, then about another £20 for marketing overheads, then if using a distributor another £40 for his pocket, then the retailer another (minimum) £150 :confused: for his pocket. £10 to £300 - ridiculous. All approx figures....

Obviously your ratios are narrower than that. Assuming the A80 monoblocks were marketed by a mainstream high end manufacturer (if there is such a thing) what would be their approximate retail price?

WikiBoy

15-03-2008, 11:34

Obviously your ratios are narrower than that. Assuming the A80 monoblocks were marketed by a mainstream high end manufacturer (if there is such a thing) what would be their approximate retail price?

At least twice the price. Or if Naim three times the price.

Filterlab

15-03-2008, 11:36

At least twice the price.

I see, good value then. :)

Or if Naim three times the price.

:D :lol:

WikiBoy

15-03-2008, 11:46

At least twice the price. Or if Naim three times the price.

Whoops! sorry Gromit, I have hi-jacked your thread :doh:

WikiBoy

15-03-2008, 11:52

I see, good value then. :)

:D :lol:

Value is as value does. I am only talking about price structure and mark up. Value is related to what the item does for its customer. If it is crap for him it doesn't matter how cheap it is.

Once again I want to keep this away from me and my products and more a discussion about principle, otherwise this thread just becomes me finding a new way of slurping the trough.

Filterlab

15-03-2008, 12:15

:)

Fair enough matey.

Whoops! sorry Gromit, I have hi-jacked your thread :doh:

And I think you should send him some flowers for doing so. ;)

Filterlab

15-03-2008, 12:19

Nah, we don't worry about back handers and 'free' promotions on here, everyone is welcome to push their goods until they've no breath left. :)

Gromit

15-03-2008, 12:41

Some more black box pron...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/System40small.jpg

Just been listening to the P75 again, using the Joan Armatrading *Me Myself I album as the music. Hell's fookin' bells!! The 75 (which is still a cracking little phonostage, no excuses needed) sounds pinched, narrow, bright and synthetic compared to the Phono2.

*I'd not listened to this for years - forgotten how bloody good it was. Analogue-recorded drums & bass at its best - dynamics that make your hair curl (if I had any). ;)

Filterlab

15-03-2008, 17:18

...If anyone can come up with proof that I gave discount or gifts to forum members for mention of my products I will *give* them a free amplifier...

By the way, if I forge some proof, do I still qualify for a free amplifier?
:eyebrows:

WikiBoy

15-03-2008, 17:33

By the way, if I forge some proof, do I still qualify for a free amplifier?
:eyebrows:

No! at the minimum you would probably get community service or probation :lolsign:

WikiBoy

16-03-2008, 00:05

No! at the minimum you would probably get community service or probation :lolsign:

You missed transfering these two posts. :confused:

Marco

16-03-2008, 00:10

Shut it old man and just get stuck in to yer new room! :ner:

;)

Gromit, you can now proceed with the rest of your thread uninterrupted by these hooligans...

Marco.

WikiBoy

16-03-2008, 00:13

Shut it old man and just get stuck in to yer new room! :ner:

;)

Gromit, you can now proceed with the rest of your thread uninterrupted by these hooligans...

Marco.

Cheeky young whippersnapper - do yer job properly or no pocket money next week.

Marco

16-03-2008, 00:16

Ok, daddy.

Marco.

Filterlab

16-03-2008, 10:51

Gromit

17-03-2008, 17:23

Gromit, you can now proceed with the rest of your thread uninterrupted by these hooligans...

Marco.

Thanks Marco :)

Meanwhile back at the ranch...

My rig sounds blummin' fab today. Great what a weekend's worth of giving the sytem a proper beasting can do to loosen it all up. :)

Now all I need is a quartet of A80 mono's... ;)

Gromit

23-04-2008, 15:47

Just got myself an A30 power amp to give bi-amping a try...will post some pics up forthwith. In the meantime, the A30 is in the same 'small' NVA box as the phono stage. :)

So much for the 'box count reduction' :doh:

Gromit

25-04-2008, 08:28

Not got round to getting Richard to bi-wire-config the amp end of the LS5 speaker cable yet so just had the A30 running on its own. What a wonderfully sweet sounding little amp this is! :)

Alan

25-04-2008, 11:25

I Think you may well love bi - amping - as I do. Rob's previous thoughts about the synergy of bi - amping being difficult to get right need not apply here with an all NVA setup. What amazed me most was this:
Difference between 40 watts and 70 watts = fantastic!:)
Difference between 70 watts and re-introducing 40 watts in addition up top = Even greater!:lol::scratch:
Maybe the crossover leeches the signal more than I can imagine, but it was still a tremendous suprise to me.

BTW, didn't your A30 come with some LS1? If your royds can biwire then you'll be ok surely?(I'm not calling you shirley...)

Filterlab

25-04-2008, 11:44

Nice one Alan, glad you're pleased with your bi-amped set-up.

You're right, I found that one amp running my MLs was better than bi-amping, however I think it was just in that case as most seem to benefit from bi-amping.

Ooo oo oo, talking of amplifiers, a change for me is afoot - I'm so excited at the moment!

WikiBoy

25-04-2008, 12:02

Mike

25-04-2008, 12:21

Clock test!

Mike

25-04-2008, 12:21

Nope.... Seems to be correct on my pc! :scratch:

WikiBoy

25-04-2008, 12:25

Nope.... Seems to be correct on my pc! :scratch:

This post of yours is labelled 12.21 my computer said 13.21, which is the current time.

AHA someone has just changed it to the correct time - ta!

Filterlab

25-04-2008, 12:28

It's correct on my computer - as are the post times. :confused:

Mike

25-04-2008, 12:34

Weird! :confused:

Filterlab

25-04-2008, 12:35

That's computers for you, well PCs anyway. ;)

Yomanze

26-04-2008, 20:46

I used a Mac for years until around 8 months ago, now I'm all Ubuntu Linux:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/29/ubuntu_left_standing/

Surprised by the Mac's performance TBH!!!

Glad you're liking your amps Richard, lots of perspex boxes around your house then!

Gromit

29-04-2008, 13:55

More black boxes...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2059.jpg

From the bottom up...

PSU for the Phono2 phono amp
CA 840C
A60 & A30 power amps
P90sa Pre
Phono2 phono stage

Bi-amping? I'm getting my LS5 speaker cable (currently only set for bi-wire at the speaker end) converted to bi-wire at the amp end to allow for the bi-amp, but yesterday, just for the hell of it, I connected the A30 up to the tweeters using some old Exposure cable (it's pretty much NACA4/5 - looks identical bar the labelling).

Genuinely surprised by the difference this has made, even though it's compromised by the cable mis-match. More presence, clearer midrange projection - ie there's much better pitch coherence and intensity. Clearly better dynamics but best of all, there's a much better sense of urgency. Music feels like it's going somewhere. :)

Marco

30-04-2008, 09:36

Gromit

30-04-2008, 16:41

Nice stuff, Richard, and it's an obviously well thought out system :)

Have you ever thought of getting rid of that crappy 'B&Q'-type mains block, though? ;)

Or is it something you've built yourself?

Marco.

Now come on Marco - we all know that mains'n'cables'n'stuff don't make any difference ;)

Never thought about the mains block tbh - although this is a very nice 10 quid Maplin one. :)

scoobs

30-04-2008, 16:53

Dont get him started Rich! He talked me through his hifi power 'arrangement' and I was left cowering...I bet the street lights in Chester dip when Mad Marco powers up!

Marco

30-04-2008, 19:47

Haha...yes it is rather 'OTT', but I wouldn't have it any other way because I know how influential it's been to the results I've obtained from my system :smoking:

Seriously though, Richard, you should look into this area of your system and ascertain what improvements could be made. Simply doing away with the Maplin block (they really are horrible things, sonically, especially in a quality hi-fi system like yours) and installing a series of wall sockets attached to a separate spur, would give a noticeable improvement in the sound quality of your system.

Are you using bog standard 'kettle leads', too?

I'm not suggesting you go 'daft' about this stuff, like me (LOL!) but a little attention to detail will pay dividends, I can promise you that, especially as you have all the right 'building blocks' already in place :)

Marco.

Gromit

30-04-2008, 20:08

Hi Marco - unfortunately we presently live in a rented house in London (our own gaff is up in Cheshire) so putting a separate spur in is a no-no. :(

We're thinking of building our own place shortly so I'll most definitely be thinking 'hifi' when the wiring's being done. :)

I am using a Chord Powercord on the CD player though. :)

Marco

30-04-2008, 20:59

Nice one, Richard. I like the idea of building your own gaff. I hope it goes well for you. If you would like any advice regarding installing the mains set-up for your system when the time comes let me know :smoking:

Marco.

Gromit

08-05-2008, 09:39

It had to happen - went for broke and bought Jerry's mint condition A80 mono's.

Need to sell the little A30 power now and get onto saving for a pair of A40's to bi-amp. :)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2076.jpg

Oh, and while we're here...

Just re-positioned the Spacedeck and sat down to some more tunes.

Verdict? Same obsvervations apply re the sound of the 1210 vs the NAS - the NAS is clearer, better organised - the music in this instance is Eddie Daniels 'Blackwood' with ED's Clarinet having quicker, more 'bubbly' articulation. Phrases and breaks are easier to follow, there's a greater sense of progress and brio and where the Technics would lose grip slightly on musical dynamics (ie if a phrase is pushed harder) the NAS definitely has greater headroom.

However...and this is where things get interesting...

The 1210's bass is stunning - the particular lp mentioned above has lots of really deep bass synth which is nearly always playing just before or after the main beat, giving a sense of 'swing' to use a vague description - it's 'funkier' in other words. Addictive in fact.

For a 'cheap' (and it is cheap - in terms of £££) Japanese DD turntable to get this close, totally bog-standard (bar using the NAS Spacemat with Ringmat on top) to easily the best, most musical turntable I've owned in 30 years, is starting to go down as possibly the biggest wake-up call this year. :)

pure sound

08-05-2008, 10:24

The bass is the clue Richard. The TT drive system is up to the job. The shortcomings are likely to be elsewhere ie mat/arm/cartridge etc

DSJR

08-05-2008, 10:25

I love the Spacemat and deeply respect the Ringmat but NEVER thought to use them together.....

So the Technics thus equipped really is almost a match for a NAS turntable...? Bloomin' 'ell!

Gromit

08-05-2008, 10:29

Guy - if this is what the OEM arm is capable of, as it came out of the box, then I'll be quite stunned at what a better one is able to do. :)

I've just put the Teccy back in place and set up the Lyra very carefully (the arm's vtf markings are spot-on with my digital stylus gauge which is comforting!) and it's now sounding a mite clearer than before.

DSJR - I only did this to try out, don't know if it really is ideal but I've just double-sided sticky-taped the Spacemat to the platter which has tightened things up a tad.

If my mate who let me borrow the 1210 can hang on a couple of weeks I should be popping over to Ray's to have listen to his full-KAB Technics soon - will have to take this std one with me...would be churlish not to ;)

Marco

08-05-2008, 11:05

Hi Richard,

It had to happen - went for broke and bought Jerry's mint condition A80 mono's.

Need to sell the little A30 power now and get onto saving for a pair of A40's to bi-amp.

Nice one. I must somehow get to listen to NVA amps. Mr Dunn was somewhat 'inflexible' in this regard unless I bought them first! I heard the Albarrys, which I loved and which Richard said were good but not as good as NVA amps, so if they're better than the Albarrys then I'm sure I would love them. Of course, I'm firmly in the 'valve camp' now, but I'm still curious to know what the NVAs sound like. I just like increasing my hi-fi listening experience :)

Oh, and while we're here...

Just re-positioned the Spacedeck and sat down to some more tunes.

Verdict? Same obsvervations apply re the sound of the 1210 vs the NAS - the NAS is clearer, better organised - the music in this instance is Eddie Daniels 'Blackwood' with ED's Clarinet having quicker, more 'bubbly' articulation. Phrases and breaks are easier to follow, there's a greater sense of progress and brio and where the Technics would lose grip slightly on musical dynamics (ie if a phrase is pushed harder) the NAS definitely has greater headroom.

I don't doubt it. The NAS *is* a bloody good T/T, however I'm pretty confident modifying the 1210 as I've described to you before would eradicate those weaknesses. Basically, a better tonearm (or modifying the existing one) and the addition of the off-board PSU would sort it out - the remainder of the modifications to ancillaries being merely 'icing on the cake'.

However...and this is where things get interesting...

The 1210's bass is stunning - the particular lp mentioned above has lots of really deep bass synth which is nearly always playing just before or after the main beat, giving a sense of 'swing' to use a vague description - it's 'funkier' in other words. Addictive in fact.

This is one of the areas where the SL-1210 (and other quality direct-drives) excel, and again it's because of highly accurate speed stability, and most importantly, the massively superior torque of a direct-drive motor compared to what's used in most belt-drives.

Think of a diesel engine versus a petrol one; the way the diesel engine 'pulls' much better going uphill, particularly when driving into the wind, or when towing a load. The SL-1210 does a similar trick with bass-lines in music and just doesn't allow 'difficult conditions' (i.e. the reproduction of more demanding bass notes) to slow down the momentum of the music - it just grabs hold of such bass notes, exerting phenomenal control, and 'pulls them into line' so that they are reproduced tightly, deeply, and accurately, without 'flab' or the ponderous quality one often hears with poorer quality belt-drive T/Ts. You also get increased 'weight' and extension. This is all down to the torque of the D/D mechanism.

The fact is the coloration which some people like (say for example in LP12s) is largely bass notes not being properly controlled and the resulting 'softness' colouring the midrange and creating a euphonic effect which is pleasing to some people's ears. This is somewhat lovingly referred to as 'tunefulness'. The fact however is that there is nothing 'tuneful' about it - it is merely a form of distortion present due to inaccuracies in the reproduction process. Like I've said before, what you get with a good D/D deck is a neutral platform from which to hear music reproduced accurately with as little coloration of the signal as possible - any coloration that exists comes mainly from the partnering arm and cartridge!

For a 'cheap' (and it is cheap - in terms of £££) Japanese DD turntable to get this close, totally bog-standard (bar using the NAS Spacemat with Ringmat on top) to easily the best, most musical turntable I've owned in 30 years, is starting to go down as possibly the biggest wake-up call this year.

Yes, I had a similar 'wake up call' when I heard a quality direct-drive turntable for the first time, and I would now use nothing else. Once your ears become attuned to the coloration low to medium mass belt-drive T/Ts impose on the sound there is no going back. I've addressed the "cheap" issue of the 1210 on my thread about T/T mechanisms and the Grand Prix Monaco direct-drive T/T reviewed by Roy Gregory in Hi-Fi+. "Cheap Japanese DD turntable" is simply a misnomer.

If I were you, Richard, I would seriously think about selling the NAS and using the money to buy a fully modified KAB SL-1210. Trust me, you won't regret it. Because now that you've had a small taste of what the 1210 can do you won't satisfied until you experience the full effect everytime you play records!

Perhaps we should do an NVA amp/1210 listening session when you move to your new house? I'm sure that would be interesting for both of us :smoking:

Marco.

Gromit

08-05-2008, 21:45

What's the general consensus re the arm on the 1210? From what I'm hearing with my own ears, the OEM one is pretty good - it's doing a decent enough job of keeping my Lyra in check, and the tracking is clean enough; highly modulated piano strikes cause a tiny amount of break-up but saying that I've not heard the particular example I have in mind sound clean on any turntable.

Couple (OK 3) of reasons for keeping the standard arm, should I go for a new 1210...

1. I can easily keep a spare headshell with a cheap cartridge in so my daughter will be able to play records.
2. It feels like a quality item, despite the journos being slightly dismissive of it.
3. It looks cool, like all S-shaped arms.

Marco

08-05-2008, 21:54

LOL. Let's cut to the nitty gritty, Richard. Are you seriously thinking of getting as SL-1210? Then we can deal with the issue of arms :)

Btw, the journos know jack shit about the stock arm.

Marco.

scoobs

08-05-2008, 21:58

Rich
I would imagine that the re-wire is the killer upgrade for the stock arm, J7 may be able to perform the necessary surgery there, the fluid damper can be bought off the shelf from Kevin (KAB) and easily installed, add a custom counterweight, a nice headshell/leads and your away! As good as, if not better than a tecnoarm....and cooler looking of course!

Marco

08-05-2008, 22:02

As good as, if not better than a tecnoarm....and cooler looking of course!

I think it's WAY better than that, Nick! Thus modified, I'd put it more into RB1000/SME IV territory, myself, but with a different style of sound.

Marco.

Gromit

09-05-2008, 06:45

ray70

09-05-2008, 07:10

If my mate who let me borrow the 1210 can hang on a couple of weeks I should be popping over to Ray's to have listen to his full-KAB Technics soon - will have to take this std one with me...would be churlish not to ;)

That would certainly be interesting Richard! Still on for our get together - will be in touch nearer the time.

Marco

09-05-2008, 08:19

Hi Marco - yes, I am serious about getting a 1210 and just trying to weigh-up the various permutations of what to get. Sure I could just order up a new fully-modded KAB from the States which would cost around the same as I'd get for my NAS. However I really like the idea of getting one here (I see a nearly new one went on eBay for 180 quid the other day) then doing the mods to it as time goes on - always nice to tweak in stages I think, simply because it's fun. :)

I would also be happy to run a standard one for quite a while - the one I'm using isn't in its first flush of youth yet still works perfectly.

Ok, Richard, I'm with you on the "it's nice to tweak in stages" bit, and mostly that won't be a problem. Like Scoobs says, J7 could sort out the arm rewire for you, and the fluid damper can be bought from KAB and fitted yourself, etc, but sorting out the off-board PSU could be more tricky, and IMO it's what makes the biggest difference of all the mods by a country mile. I don't think it's the easiest thing in the world to fit and that's pretty much why I decided just to get the whole lot from KAB.

You could email Kevin from KAB and have a word with him about it and see what's involved: info@kabusa.com

But whatever you do make sure fitting the off-board PSU is one of your priority upgrades - I cannot stress this enough - because its effect is very significant and one of major reasons why my 1210 sounds so good.

I think your question before about the arm has been pretty much answered, so have no fears about using the stock one and having it rewired and modified as discussed. As you can hear yourself at the moment, even without modifications, the stock arm is pretty good, but it's night and day differences once the arm has been modified as discussed. At the moment you're probably only hearing about 70% of its true potential.

The other thing to note is when buying a 1210 I would go for a new one, simply because they're cheap enough anyway and at least then you know 100% for sure it's not been 'DJ'd to death'. I would advise you to go for the MK5G (the top model) as it has a higher quality tonearm than the rest and looks nicer too, IMO.

Ok, I think that covers it but if you have any other questions then fire away! :smoking:

Marco.

Gromit

09-05-2008, 23:24

Thanks for the tips Marco - really appreciate it. :)

Been looking at the Mk5G which seems to be available for just over 400 quid on the www (in the UK) if I shop around. Does look rather cool with the gloss top plate and silver/Ti arm.

What's also helped is the NVA A80 mono's really cleaning up the bottom end - these, with their grip and control, in combination with the 1210's bass performance, has made for some quite exciting listening. Had some 180g Depeche Mode lp's on this afternoon and the bass is just so faaaaaaaast.

Gromit

09-05-2008, 23:30

That would certainly be interesting Richard! Still on for our get together - will be in touch nearer the time.

Looking forward to it Ray - and having heard your rig before I thing it's going to be a hoot. Your speakers with the 1210's bottom end - oooh yes. :)

Marco

10-05-2008, 14:23

Thanks for the tips Marco - really appreciate it. :)

You're very welcome, mate. If there's anything else I can help with just let me know :smoking:

The MK5G is total class. When you lift it nice and shiny out of its box for the first time you'll marvel at the sheer quality of the engineering and no doubt manage a quiet chuckle to yourself at getting hold of something so phenomenally well made for around £485... ;)

Marco.

Gromit

12-05-2008, 08:26

Hi Marco - just been checking out the Mk5G on the Technics website. Only differences between that and the Mk2 seem to be the greater range of VTF and bias adjustment and the OFC arm wiring? I think I actually prefer the more understated look of the Mk2 tbh, unless of course there's more to the 5G's differences than I've realised?

Marco

12-05-2008, 09:02

Hi Richard,

Have a look at the KAB website:

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm

Click on 'Parts' where it says 'Special Edition Technics', and scroll down to where it shows the various arm wands.

You'll notice that the price of the MK5G wand is double that of the others. If you also look very closely you'll see that it's a different colour and finish (sort of a 'yellowy' matt finish as opposed to shiny silver). That's because it's titanium constructed as opposed to the machined aluminium of the other wands. The result is that the MK5G armtube is more rigid, which of course impacts on performance.

The other thing, as you mentioned, is it has OFC wiring and high quality phono plugs fitted, as opposed to the dire quality wiring and plugs used in the standard arm and T/T, which you might find a sufficient upgrade without going to the expense of having the arm rewired with Cardas cable. At least you'll be able to compare the effect first against the arm in your friend's 1210 and then decide yourself if you think Cardas rewiring is warranted. The difference between standard and OFC wiring together with the plugs used should be significant - just a thought :)

But if you prefer the cleaner looks of the MK2 then go for it :smoking:

Marco.

scoobs

12-05-2008, 18:27

Rich I spotted this technics 120 on ebay, looks very nice and SME ready, in nice minimalist MK2 guise too.

Technics SL-120 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TECHNICS-SL-120-MK2-DIRECT-DRIVE-TURNTABLE-SME-111-ARM_W0QQitemZ290227716077QQihZ019QQcategoryZ3283QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

This arm would mate nicely, I very nearly bought it myself.
SME 3009 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SME-3009-II-DCT-SILVER-SILK-CABLE-RCAs-CARDAS-IKEDA_W0QQitemZ270214498172QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3283 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp16 38Q2em118Q2el1247)

Marco

12-05-2008, 20:01

Two nice items there, Scoobs.

Any idea when you'll need the A23 yet, and what have you decided to do about your tonearm cable? :)

Marco.

scoobs

12-05-2008, 20:21

Erm, I'm hoping to get my amp this week, maybe as early as wednesday (fingers crossed, but I wont hold my breath). My man reckons I can use my 103 straight in, which is a little odd for a mm stage, but he should know. He also has a headamp I can use for comparison, so if everything goes to plan I would like to borrow it next week if that's OK.

Yesterday I bagged some Townshend Isolda 300dct cables at a good price from Dave (he's around here somewhere), one tonearm cable with a cardas din and a second 'regular' pair, which is a bonus! I'm looking forward to getting these.

Marco

12-05-2008, 20:37

Erm, I'm hoping to get my amp this week, maybe as early as wednesday (fingers crossed, but I wont hold my breath). My man reckons I can use my 103 straight in, which is a little odd for a mm stage, but he should know. He also has a headamp I can use for comparison, so if everything goes to plan I would like to borrow it next week if that's OK.

Nay probs - just let me know. I'm not sure about the MM thing, though... But I'm sure you'll keep us suitably informed!

Marco.

ray70

13-05-2008, 07:10

Marco

13-05-2008, 07:35

Hi Ray,

I can relate exactly to what you're describing :)

Which Denon cartridge and step-up transformer are you using?

Marco.

ray70

13-05-2008, 08:01

Hi Marco. I'm using the Noteworthy Audio step up (purchased from Gromit) and a Denon DL304. This is my first taste of a MC / step up, so I decided to take the "budget" approach. The Noteworthy retails for £200 I think, but Gromit sold it to me for £100, and the Denon was £170.

However, I really like what I hear, and I will invest more in a MC / set up in the future - just want to get some mileage from my current equipment first though. I've read with interest your thoughts on the Auditorium and that's certainly on my list, as is the 103pro. I have to admit the Denon cart and step up that Scoobs posted a link to is very tempting, but too early and way too expensive for me at this stage. I'm in Tokyo on business later this year and may use the trip as an opportunity to invest in a new MC and step up.

For the time being though, I am just enjoying my tunes :)

Gromit

14-05-2008, 16:36

Richard - I have a MK5G so you can see one in the flesh in a couple of weeks. I chose the Mk5G purely on looks :) - after the functional looks of the NAS and Heavy Kit, I was ready for some bling in my hi-fi life!

It looks so good, my wife has not commented on how ugly it is - an absolute first for any hi-fi component I have ever owned. Of course, it sounds even better.

By the way, the step up and Denon cart combination are really beginning to sing now. I was listening to Joni Mitchell Blue over the weekend. Both the LP12 and NAS struggled on the "California" track where Joni's voice goes from low to high in an instant. With the LP12 and NAS, I got distortion as she went up the range. The bling bling Technics took it all in it's stride, and Joni's voice sounded like I've never heard it before.

Nice one Ray - can't wait to hear your 1210. :)

Glad also that the Stepnote etc is working out well - that with the P10 really is quite a superb phonostage and IME almost unbeatable at the price.

I've been spending a couple of days doing some swapping around here - NAS with Heavy Kit/without and with the Ringmat (in various combinations) vs the 1210. A lot of fun has been had, and some fairly conclusive opinions formed.... I think ;)

Gromit

17-05-2008, 13:00

A lot of fun has been had, and some fairly conclusive opinions formed.... I think ;)

Current state of play having done some quick back-back listening vs the NAS this morning....good job neighbours are out as we've been hitting the Royds hard with some Rush 'Moving Pictures'. Track used was YYZ (well you would wouldn't you??)

Award ceremony as follows...

1. NAS with Heavy Kit - bass is almost 1210-like, more colour to cymbals, better note shape, more punch to side/snare drum. Bass guitar has excellent tonal clues (ie it sound more like a bloke playing a bass guitar!). 'Angrier' lead guitar, more impact etc.

2. Teccy - better bass than above, a bit colourless in the hi-hat/ride cymbal dept and doesn't smack one in the face with the drumkit quite as hard. Bags of drive and get-up-an-go though. Perhaps a little too samey in the snare drum back beat - the HD NAS tells more about what the drummer's doing as each drum-hit offers a very slightly different volume/tone.

3. Std NAS. Warmer, more euphonic, 'nicer' (barf) perhaps. Don't do nice in this house; I want it sounding like it has blood coursing through its veins. Still sounds pretty damn good mind.

Now this was a weird one - put the 1210 on top of my QS rack (5 shelves populated by amps/CD player etc) and it sounds farctionally better than on the small Audiotech table. The first turntable I've ever owned which has demonstrated this - on the LP12/Gyro and NAS it was a sonic disaster.

BajaGringo

25-05-2008, 20:09

Nice and clean look...

Congratulations!!!

Gromit

04-06-2008, 10:17

I now have my very own 1210 - a low mileage, nigh-on mint Mk2 which is now ready to be fettled/wrecked by yours truly...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2097.jpg

Listening to some old Rave lp's at the moment...ye gods what's happening to me!!! Combination of some solid state amplification with loads of grip, a pair of little Royds and a 1210 fitted with a Lyra....

:gig:

Gromit

14-06-2008, 10:08

The full rig - I really don't want to sell the NAS but as we've just bought a new house (with a brick-walled 24'x14' living room yeeha!) things are a little 'tight' around here at the moment...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2139.jpg

scoobs

14-06-2008, 14:26

Blimey that's a pretty formidable stack you have now. Good luck with the house move Rich. I would image in a room that size you're NVA's will really be able to let their hair down a bit.

Mike Reed

14-06-2008, 17:23

Gromit

03-07-2008, 16:53

Brilliant room dimensions, there. Unusual too! Is it a Victorian house or one specifically made? It's that 14 feet width, you see, that I find interesting.

You need some seriously large speakers to reproduce the scale those dimensions can give you, i.m.o.

Hi Mike - the room's dimensions are at its widest point. The chimney breast is approx 14" out into the room and approx 6' wide. The house was built 20 years ago by a small local builder which may also explain why all internal walls are brick, even upstairs which is refreshing.

My present stack...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2151.jpg

Gromit

15-09-2008, 12:35

Had a bit of a move-around and installed the Squeezebox (which sounds so good I'm giving serious thought to selling the CD player)...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2196.jpg

This afternoon I'm popping down to Harrow Audio to pick up a new DL103 - really fancy trying one in the Pioneer as I've always been a fan of the old nail. It worked very well in the old Spacearm so will be interested to see how it goes in this one. :)

The PL71's arm has a 16g effective mass which can be raised by moving the small weight just forward of the bearing housing.

Will get it set up and report back. :)

Peter Stockwell

15-09-2008, 13:56

So all that wifi is not having an effect on thos nva boxes. I was thinking that maybe they would be less resistant to rfi because of the high non ferrous content ?

Gromit

15-09-2008, 14:50

So all that wifi is not having an effect on thos nva boxes. I was thinking that maybe they would be less resistant to rfi because of the high non ferrous content ?

Hi Peter - when I first placed the Squeezebox near the phonostage (it was sat on the top shelf next to the SB) there was a faint ticking/whistling when using the turntable whlst the SB was switched on. Now, with the phonostage sat under the turntable, there's no noise at all; in fact getting it as far away from transformers as possible has brought about an increase in clarity. :)

Gromit

15-09-2008, 15:55

All set up and playing away...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2211.jpg

All the 103 characteristics are there - ballsy, rich and fruity presentation. Not overly accurate perhaps but definitely fun. It does cause more hum than the Lyra - I've had to run a separate earth cable from the back of the PL71 (it has its own earthing post next to the RCA outs) to the phonostage which has quietened it down significantly.

Time to spin some more tunes to let it run in. :)

Marco

15-09-2008, 18:38

It’s looking great, Richard - your system pics and the close-up of the 103. The Pioneer arm will suit the 103 down to a tee. Try adding a little more mass (around 6g) to the Sumiko with a brass plate, or whatever. Trust me it will sound even better :)

The 103 is what I'd call 'musically accurate', not 'hi-fi accurate'. I think you probably know what I mean. I know why you like the Lyra. I used to own an Argo(i), which is quite a bit better than the Dorian, and in my opinion the 103 plays music much more accurately without the 'toppy' balance of the Lyra, when loaded correctly preferably through a quality valve preamp (step-up transformer) and phono stage, albeit losing some of the Lyra's high frequency definition and 'clarity'.

Your Pioneer looks very sexy, and as you've described, sounds excellent. I would love to compare it to my KAB-modified 1210. I don't doubt the PL-71 is better than a stock 1210, but I think we're in a different football match with the KAB 1210 ;)

Perhaps we could have some fun and set-up the two 'teams' in a match sometime? Any excuse to listen to music and drink a ridiculous amount of beer :cool:

Marco.

Gromit

15-09-2008, 19:39

Hi Marco - just spent an hour or so tweaking the 103, setting VTA and lining it up more accurately. I always found with the previous 103's I've owned (I had a std one in my Gyro several years ago then the R in the Spacedeck) that they need a couple of hours to warm up at which point it's best to 'tune' them whilst warm rather than setting it up from cold.

Now - this is where things get interesting...

I bought one of those funny Cartridge Man Isolators a year or so ago for using with my 103R (stop heckling at the back!). I fitted it, sat back and though it didn't really do an awful lot - any differences were subtle at best, and hardly worth getting steamed-up over so I removed it carefully and put it back in the drawer. Fast forward to 30 mins ago...

Just fitted it to the Pioneer and sat back down for a listen - I wasn't quite prepared for what I was about to hear. Threw a couple of difficult tracks at the turntable: Steve Winwood 'Back in the High Life' is a bit nasty at times - harsh, but nonetheless dynamic and with some hard hitting bass synth lines. With the Isolator in place the top end has become cleaner, the bass is more nimble and SW's voice is more intelligible. Trying a couple of other tracks (on other lp's) it displays the same improvements. Surface noise is lower (the PL71's eerily quiet to start with) and there's less 'dirt' in the presentation.

In the short space of time it's been fitted I cannot yet detect any downsides.

Marco

15-09-2008, 19:58

Interesting, Richard. Could it just be that the Isolator is adding a bit more mass to the headshell which the 103 likes? How much does the Isolator weigh?

Marco.

Gromit

16-09-2008, 06:28

Interesting, Richard. Could it just be that the Isolator is adding a bit more mass to the headshell which the 103 likes? How much does the Isolator weigh?

Marco.

This could have something to do with it, although one should remember here that the Isolator decouples the cartridge from the headshell so any mass is 'sprung' as it were. With the PL71's arm it's possible to alter its effective mass by adjusting the position of the side weight. Standard setting the arm's 16.4g - this can be altered up to 19g or if the weight's removed completely it goes down to 15g. The Isolator is exactly 2.5g.

When I tried the Isolator with the Spacearm the effect wasn't as pronounced - I'm wondering if this may have been down to the fact that the S'arm already has some de-coupling of its own, being a mechanically damped unipivot.

All being well Scoobs' SDS should be arriving today or tomorrow so we'll have a play around with that aswell.

Marco

16-09-2008, 08:02

Yep, I get what you're saying about the Isolator. The bottom line is that you're hearing an improvement with it so it doesn't really matter why it's happening.

I'd still be tempted though to increase the effective mass on your arm to 19g, and to add another 6g mass to the headshell (get John, Thrunobulaxx, to make you up a threaded 6g brass plate that will fit to the top of your Sumiko), removing the Isolator first, and see what happens. If it doesn't work out you can always revert back to the Isolator. Thruno's plates aren't expensive.

What you should remember is that the 103 is from an era when high-mass tonearms were the norm, and was often used on arms like the Fidelity Research FR-64S which had an effective mass of 35g! I know it goes against current thinking where the approach is to reduce mass wherever possible, but the 103 is a dinosaur; it likes mass - and lots of it!

The SDS works really well on the 1210. I'm not sure if it'll have the same effect on your PL-71 unless the platter, un-weighted, is equally as resonant. Let us know how you get on.

Marco.

Gromit

16-09-2008, 08:13

Hi Marco - I'm going to up the arm's mass, only problem being that the counterweight is going to be a looooong way back so obviously wont be ideal. Think I may contact John and get him to make me one of his beautiful counterweights too. It'll look gorgeous next to that wood. :)

The Denon's starting to sing away nicely now - it's sounding best at around 2.6g which is about the same as it did in the Spacearm. It hasn't got the clout of the Lyra but its bass is probably fuller and 'meatier'. Not as musically effervescent though - the Dorian still has this wonderfully un-constrained feel, musical phrases ebb and flow more naturally. Still, for under 90 quid the 103's a joke....a very good one :)

As a footnote: When I first got the NAS back in 2005 Les at Walrus set it up in the shop with my old 103 - his first reaction, when I told him I was using the Denon, was 'I think you need to put a better cartridge in some time' (he didn't really know the Denon to be fair to him). Anyway he had a listen to the rig once set up and was 'very pleasantly surprised' at how damn good it sounded.

It ain't pretty - but it certainly seems to work...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2224.jpg

Marco

16-09-2008, 08:37

Hey, Richard, if it works it works! :)

Yeah, ideally you want the c/w butting up as close to the arm's pivot point as possible. You'll achieve that if you're going to get one of John's brass jobs, providing you settle on the correct weight. You'll need to experiment to get that right, though.

You're about right with your VTF. I track my 103R at 2.7g, which I feel gives the best balance of bass weight and clarity, although of course this is very much personal taste and system dependant; certainly though the 103 sounds best set towards the upper limit of its range.

I know exactly what you mean with the Dorian. Like I said to Tim (Sid and Coke) in another thread, it's a matter of choosing your compromises. However, on second thoughts, you can spoil yourself and use both in different headshells! The joys of having a detachable headshell arm, eh? :eyebrows:

Dealers and the uninitiated always say things like that about the 103 and probably even the 1210 or your P-71. Often in the eyes of these people if something is not a recognised and 'respected' hi-fi name (and expensive) it's automatically crap. As they say, how blissfully ignorant are the deluded!

Marco.

Gromit

16-09-2008, 09:24

The SDS has just arrived - many thanks for the speedy delivery Nick! :)

Marco

16-09-2008, 16:32

Initial impressions, Rich? :)

Marco.

Gromit

16-09-2008, 16:45

Initial impressions, Rich? :)

Marco.

Marco - don't think it really works that well with the Pioneer. Shame as I know it does da business on the Teccy.

It seems to suck out the bass, making it sound slow and indistinct, robbing it of impact - it's slightly 'mushy' even which was a surprise. I think the PL71's std mat musn't be too bad as putting it back on its own (after doing the VTA adjust etc) snaps things back into focus. Still, it was worth a try. :)

Btw - I tried the SDS on its own, with the Pioneer's mat and with a Ringmat. Best result was with the Pioneer mat - with the Ringmat it was awful, removed all the get up & go out of the system.

Marco

16-09-2008, 17:06

Thanks for your thoughts, Rich.

I thought as much. Like you say, it does the business on the 1210, but that's only because the platter, un-weighted, is as resonant as a bell. I suspect that the platter on the Pioneer is better damped and more 'solid' to start with. Unfortunately, there are no universal 'one fix for all' solutions in hi-fi.

I detest what the Ringmat does on any T/T. It's vastly overpriced bollocks, as far as I'm concerned. The 'Statmat' comes into the same category.

Keep us posted on how your 103 is performing as it beds in, and how you get on with adding more mass to your arm and headshell. I suspect that might prove to be more successful ;)

Marco.

Gromit

16-09-2008, 18:23

Hi Marco - the Pioneer's platter is quite resonant, but where the 1210's platter goes 'ding' the 71's is more of a 'dong' (it's a slightly bright concert A flat actually) :)

Shame really - I had high hopes for it working well. I'll keep it for a little while anyway and have a fiddle with some other mat combinations. I know someone who'll lend me an Achromat - I've heard this do great things on an LP12 - and have some more mat-swapping fun. :)

As to the 103...

It's going very well - the thing which hit me with my first 103 (bought nearly-new as a stop-gap for a busted OC9 and ended up staying because it was so damn good) was it bass. This one's just the same...no susprise. In some ways I think I prefer it to the 103R (not tried nor heard a Pro) as it's ballsier and less...well..'clinical' would be the wrong word but somehow the R seems a little more civilised, losing some heart'n'soul in the process. I can't deny it's a bit more detailed though - possibly swings and roundabouts here.

I weighed the Isolator vs the mounting bolts - the Iso is 2.5g and the bolts (with the Sumiko finger lift) come to 2.7g so the Isolator was actually less massy. The Iso has its own mounting hardware built-in as it were.

Another thing to get done would be for my good friends at Noteworthy Audio to 'nude' the 103 for me - I've heard their nuded 103R in a NAS Dais and it sounded simply fabulous.

Time to get John to make me a fancy counterweight/shell-weight methinks. ;)

scoobs

16-09-2008, 18:51

Rich, sorry the isomat hasn't worked out for you mate?
I am trying alternatve resonance damping at the moment, I've lined the inner rim of the platter with the black compond that comes with a Michell Orbe, I had it going spare, on top I just have a thin neoprene layer from my herbies to make the platter flush and to adhere to the achromat on top with the rdc puck, no tings here!

re the nude 103, have you considered having a bash at it yourself, Yomanze did it and fixed a thrunobulax weight on top, not to difficult by all accounts, just a scalpel and a steady hand. I should get my nude 103 sapphire back from Expert stylus in the next few weeks, but next time, I'll do the nuding myself.

Gromit

17-09-2008, 07:22

Hi Nick - no apology needed mate, it was always going to be worth trying the SDS. :)

I'm wondering if it's 'over-damping' the 71's platter - it's almost as though it robs the sound of life, making it laboured and slightly lazy even. I have heard of similar sonic traits from folk who've used very heavy rubber mats. I think for now I'm going to concentrate on the arm & cartridge match. The TT's good enough to leave well alone.

John - where are you? Me needeth one of your laaavely bits of brass. :)

Marco

17-09-2008, 09:17

Rich,

Hi Marco - the Pioneer's platter is quite resonant, but where the 1210's platter goes 'ding' the 71's is more of a 'dong' (it's a slightly bright concert A flat actually)

You sound like a bit of a 'ding-dong' expert so I won't argue! :lolsign:

Shame really - I had high hopes for it working well. I'll keep it for a little while anyway and have a fiddle with some other mat combinations. I know someone who'll lend me an Achromat - I've heard this do great things on an LP12 - and have some more mat-swapping fun.

Here's a thought... Have you tried using the SDS both ways round. I seem to remember reading on the instructions or on the website that there is a 'correct' way round for it to be used. I think there's a difference in the way the surface is finished on both sides, or something like that. Anyway, give it a go, if you haven't already done so. Also if you need a loan of an Achromat and the other guy doesn't deliver let me know. Mine is lying unused at the moment.

As to the 103...

It's going very well - the thing which hit me with my first 103 (bought nearly-new as a stop-gap for a busted OC9 and ended up staying because it was so damn good) was it bass. This one's just the same...no susprise. In some ways I think I prefer it to the 103R (not tried nor heard a Pro) as it's ballsier and less...well..'clinical' would be the wrong word but somehow the R seems a little more civilised, losing some heart'n'soul in the process. I can't deny it's a bit more detailed though - possibly swings and roundabouts here.

The quality of the bass is the best thing about the 103. Modern cartridges just don't do bass like it. I've tried Koetsus, Lyras, Transfigurations - all sorts of stuff and they all sound anaemic and lacklustre in comparison, although they were better at the top end. The only cartridge I've heard that's comparable in this area is the Audionote Io, which also uses Alnico magnets like the DL-103, and the Ortofon SPU also has similar 'heft'. I've found that whenever Alnico magnets come into the equation either in cartridges or speakers there is a certain magic in the presentation, why I don't know...

The only difference between the standard 103 and 103R is the 6N copper coils precision wound to the cantilever shaft. This brings out extra detail, better imaging and lower-frequency precision, but I don't feel that any of the standard 103s "balls" or "soul" has been lost in the process. After listening to the 'R', switching back to the standard 103 results in a slightly opaque, unconvincing sound. For me the 103R is just a 103, but better, and the Pro version takes this further to another level. You really must listen to the Pro sometime!

I weighed the Isolator vs the mounting bolts - the Iso is 2.5g and the bolts (with the Sumiko finger lift) come to 2.7g so the Isolator was actually less massy. The Iso has its own mounting hardware built-in as it were.

Interesting. The bottom line is that the Isolator is doing something positive in your system so I'd leave it there for the time being. It's a scandal what Len Gregory charges for that thing, though, considering what it's made of! :mental:

Another thing to get done would be for my good friends at Noteworthy Audio to 'nude' the 103 for me - I've heard their nuded 103R in a NAS Dais and it sounded simply fabulous.

Time to get John to make me a fancy counterweight/shell-weight methinks. ;)

Scoobs will tell you the benefits of 'nuding' the 103, as he's had it done to his Pro. Did you watch the video on the 'Nuding a 103' thread?

The brass c/w and headshell weight are no-brainers, dude :smoking:

Have you sent John a PM or email? He does get busy from time to time, but he will get back to you A.S.A.P.

Marco.

Gromit

17-09-2008, 21:07

Hi Marco - John's been PM'd so I shall dutifully sit by the Mac awaiting his reply. :)

I'd be interested to hear the 103R in the Pioneer - of course one should remember the R has a different internal impedence (14 as opposed to the cooking 103's 40 ohms) which can throw up slightly different repsonse curves into the same phono stage/step-up. For the time being this standard one's sounding so very good I'm not overly worried. I'll be more tempted by the Pro when I fancy a change...or perhaps that SPU I always promised myself :)

I put the Lyra back in for a while this afternoon which was a worthwhile exercise - it is a better cartridge than the 103, but as a fellow 103R owning mate of mine said (who came from a £400 AN IQ3 after me going ga-ga over the Denons) 'who gives a stuff if the Denon's a little bit uncouth at times - it makes music so much fun I really don't give a toss'. Couldn't have put it better myself. :)

Marco

17-09-2008, 21:58

John's on-line now, Rich, so you should get a reply from him soon :)

Good point about the internal impedance. I can't say that I've noticed any issues in my system using either the Denon HA-500 head amp or the A23 step-up transformer, but I guess it could be different in other systems.

The Lyra is technically a better cartridge, but that doesn't necessarily make it musically superior, which as you've observed is all that matters. The fun factor you refer to is part of the magic of the 103 and IMO is completely missing from any modern cartridges I've heard.

An SPU would be a good move now you've got an arm with a detachable headshell. You'll need an extra-heavy c/w to balance it out, though, and a step-up transformer with sufficient gain to amplify the miniscule output. Fortunately help is at hand here:

http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=60_73&products_id=2714&osCsid=c16ea17ada9527d776767853ff5091f0

pricey, but I reckon it would be ideal with one of these babies into a quality valve MM stage:

http://www.coolgales.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=173&substring=ortofon+spu

If you're gonna do it, do it right! :eyebrows:

Like you, I will definitely treat myself to an SPU in due course. I have other audio priorities though at the moment.

Marco.

Gromit

18-09-2008, 10:07

John's on-line now, Rich, so you should get a reply from him soon :)

John's on the case :)

Nice thing about the PL71's counterweight is that it's already a 2-piece affair: There's about 16mm of spare room on the threaded section of the c/w which could be taken up with a pair of (or just a single) weights. Using these in various combinations would allow for lots of different cartridge options. :)

Marco

18-09-2008, 16:46

Sounds like a plan, Rich! :smoking:

I love the arm on your deck. I'm considering buying one of the new Ortofon tonearms (shown below) to see whether this offers any increase in performance over my modified stock arm. There is always the question of "Does the Technics arm hold back the deck's performance?" But I would only use a tonearm with a detachable headshell so that I can fit an SPU or EMT XSD-15 at some point.

http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=2382

It's an itch that I have to scratch sooner or later...

Btw, next time you buy a headshell to fit one of your many cartridges (hehe!) I thoroughly recommend that you invest in an LH-18:

http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Audio-Technica_AT-LH18,OCC_Head_Shell.html

Good though the Sumiko is, this is the finest detachable headshell money can buy. It not only looks superb but its construction guarantees improved sound quality. I know because I have both!

Marco.

Gromit

22-09-2008, 13:11

John sent me a couple of pics of the new counterweights yesterday - they look totally bloody gorgeous...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/grommitscw002.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/grommitscw003.jpg

Also having the weight/spacer for the headshell - shame is I won't be able to use the Isolator if I use the h/s weight although I might just glue the weight to the top of the h/s for the time being, see how it goes.

All being well we should be up and at it by tomorrow. :gig:

Marco

22-09-2008, 13:14

Mmmm... Yum yum!

Nice one, Richard. We of course expect to see pics of the beauties in situ once they arrive and a description of their effect :smoking:

Marco.

Gromit

23-09-2008, 15:07

thrunobulaxx

24-09-2008, 18:37

It's all up and running...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2234.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2233.jpg

I've just stuck the h/s weight in place for the moment but will have a go without the Isolator in a couple of days when things have settled in place. I first ran the c/w with one extra weight and no h/s weight - straight away bass hits harder and goes deeper. Better instrumental separation and clearer vocals. 'Funkier' too if that's the right word.

Thanks again John - from another seriously chuffed customer!! :)

Nice to hear it panned out ok richard, i stuck a new plate without thread in the post tonight, sorry about the crossed wires.
Thats one of the nicest pioneer decks i have seen, there is a nice one here but i think it needs some pitch control repairs, nice if it can be sorted tho, if i were a in a position to sort out the speed control i would go for it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220284537242&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

Gromit

24-09-2008, 20:28

Nice to hear it panned out ok richard, i stuck a new plate without thread in the post tonight, sorry about the crossed wires.
Thats one of the nicest pioneer decks i have seen, there is a nice one here but i think it needs some pitch control repairs, nice if it can be sorted tho, if i were a in a position to sort out the speed control i would go for it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220284537242&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

Hi John - no apology needed. :)

I've reached a (tentative!) result with the h/s weight and the c/w: I've removed the Isolator as I can't use it with the headshell weight - the Iso's captive screws aren't long enough to accommodate the h/s weight and reach through the headshell itself. So...I'm using the h/s weight with the heavier of the 2 extra counterweights on t'other end.

I'm considering getting the Iso which has the longer reach screws fitted - they now do one in this configuration.

I've had my eye on the PLC-590 funnily enough - if someone could fix it it'd be a truly magnificent turntable. I just love the mechanical 'strobe meter'. Gorgeous. :)

In the meantime my trusty 71's going to keep me happy. :)

Still - a bit of big league Japanese direct drive porn never did anyone any harm...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/20c9_3.jpg

Marco

25-09-2008, 09:52

Who stuck a poxy felt mat on it, though? :eyebrows:

Those things might be ok for certain Scottish wobbly 'elastic band' decks, but not on a quality piece of engineering like that! I like the Pioneer, but for me it pales into mediocrity compared to the big EMT or Denon professional broadcast turntables. I prefer the wood on yours, too :)

I'm glad you're getting good results with Thruno's brass c/w, Rich. I told you it was a no-brainer, particularly with a 103 on the end. You should be getting bass to die for now!

John,

I think it's about time you put these weights into production as a commercial product and introduced them to the many on-line hi-fi accessories companies as a tested and approved (by enthusiasts) add-on for the SL-1200/1210. Perhaps hook up with J7 and use his site to advertise it? There's definitely a potential business opportunity here and the chance to make some reasonable cash, if you could keep up with the demand.

If you do it, though, don't forget who gave you the idea... I'll settle for a very reasonable 10% cut of all sales. People always say I'm a generous f*cker! :lol:

;)

Marco.

thrunobulaxx

25-09-2008, 14:06

Marco, nothing would please me better, but its too late for me, i`m not able to spend enough time on my feet, and if i did go into production i`m shure someone would come along and mass produce them on CNC lathes just like they did my record clamps (copied my designs and undercut me)
Each C/W is more or less unique and "hand finished" so those of you with one can rest assured you have a hand made bespoke C/W, not bits of brass with holes in formed by a robot.
I will be passing on my lathe to my son and maybe he will carry on when i`m hovis.;)

Gromit

09-10-2008, 12:18

Marco

09-10-2008, 12:33

Nice amp, Richard. I've heard one myself and rate it :)

So is the Spacedeck well and truly 'retired' now the PL-71 is on the scene, and if so, have you thus concluded now that D/D when done properly is superior to belt-drive?

No sitting on the fence now! ;)

I would like to know how you feel about this.

Marco.

thrunobulaxx

09-10-2008, 12:35

Spot the difference?

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2281.jpg

Just borrowed a KaT34 off a mate who's borrowed my CA 840C. Sounds pretty damn good, and works beautifully with the NVA passive pre. :)

Drives the Royds happily aswell showing no sign of bottling (sorry) it at higher levels.

I keep seeing valve amps everywhere, its getting on my nerves, i want one;)

If i had a clue how to build one i would but a simple DC motor control had me close to the edge.:scratch:

I could build a lovely case and knobs but thats about it, how easy are those world designs DIY instructions to follow for someone that can do a bit of soldering but with no understanding of a circuit.?

shane

09-10-2008, 13:02

how easy are those world designs DIY instructions to follow for someone that can do a bit of soldering but with no understanding of a circuit.?

OK I haven't built one myself so I can't speak from personal experience, but your level of capability is exactly their target market. What I've seen on the WD forum ( http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/index.php ) indicates that the kits are very will documented and that the instructions are clear and comprehensive. What I do know is that Peter Comeau and Andy Grove will happily take you by the hand and talk you through any problems you may come across, and will bend over backwards to make sure you end up with a brilliant amplifier. It really isn't very difficult.

Go for it!

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 13:03

The kits are pretty easy to build,as long as you take the appropriate safety precautions when powering it up.Bear in mind there are potentially lethal voltages in these amps! You will find WD very helpful with any problems,and I'm sure any here with experience would be happy to help if you run into any problems,or you would find plenty of willing helpers over on the WD forum.Alternatively,look out for a secondhand already built one.They come up now and again,either on the forum or ebay.

Marco

09-10-2008, 13:11

Or you could simply buy one fully-assembled (there are both kit prices and assembled prices available for WD gear) and let someone else worry about such things, although granted it wouldn't be as much fun!

Even the fully-assembled prices of WD kits still represent excellent value for money compared to commercial items, which in many cases will not offer anything like the same sound-per-pound value or overall performance.

Either way, like Shane says, go for it!

Marco.

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 16:39

Jerry has my WAD 300b PP at the moment.Not a current kit,but if he would care to post his impressions it may give you an idea of what to expect from WD,given it's the first kit he's heard.

scoobs

09-10-2008, 17:01

I cant take my eyes off that PL71, it really is eye candy.
Denon 103, vintage DD and valves...you gotta love it! :)

Gromit

09-10-2008, 19:01

Well it's been a most pleasant afternoon/evening spinning some lp's on my old wooden record player with its old nail-sized-stylus 103. How far have we come in the last 30 years? Not very far on this evidence.

The KaT doesn't have the oomph or grip of the A80's (no surprise) but it's arguably slightly better on vocals - hard to split to be honest. I'd say that the NVA powers are better overall - they're actually slightly sweeter (that was a surprise) and the KaT is leaner, perhaps slightly cooler in its presentation, despite how much it warms the room. ;) I've a couple of spare sets of EL34's to play with and have settled on the Golden Dragons which whilst not as tight as the JJ's they're definitely more articulate and less shrill.

One thing which has made me smile is how damn good the passive pre is with the WAD - I've a P90sa arriving soon so will look forward to how that works with the valve amp.

As to the WAD/WD amps overall - I did have a little KEL84 about a year ago and still maintain it's one of the most wonderfully musical devices I've owned. Not over-burdened with power (15w/ch doesn't go that far!) but within its comfort zone a fabulous little amp. This one had been filled with a few Black Gates and had some rare Philips NOS EL84's and Telefunken ECF80's and was quite a special piece of kit. Wished I'd kept it tbh.

All in all though it just proved that there really are some truly great value products out there from some very small companies. :)

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 19:27

Agree about the KEL.I have one myself.I find it a real giant-slayer.I've heard commercial stuff costing in the thousands that didn't equal this amp.Pretty much impossible to beat for the money IMHO!

muffinman

09-10-2008, 19:37

On the WD front:
i didn't have A CLUE about building electronics. everything you have heard about WD is true. They help you every step of the way and the forum will always help you out. check,check,check and check again. then wait for the smoke and bang!
on my first project - a kit6550, i had a dry joint and wired up all the valve bases wrong:confused:. but when i sorted it out and that rich valve sound came out of my speakers - it was a fantastic feeling of achievement.
hence the phono3 and the WD25ts
DO IT !!

Mike

09-10-2008, 19:57

More WD...

I'll second all that's been said. I've never built a WAD kit but the newer WD ones are a pleasure to do.

In fact, if anyone want one but doesn't want to do the building, I'll do it for free!... I enjoy that sort of stuff so much I wouldn't want a penny! :)

Cheers....

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 20:16

One caveat I've heard regarding the KEL.Apparently the WAD ones are superior to the newer WD ones.I'm told they changed the supplier of the output trannies for a cheaper inferior version.

Gromit

09-10-2008, 22:12

In fact, if anyone want one but doesn't want to do the building, I'll do it for free!... I enjoy that sort of stuff so much I wouldn't want a penny! :)

Cheers....

Oooh....if I ever decide to give valves another whirl I'll give you a shout! The thought of me getting my fingers anywhere near several hundred volts of DC is a little too scary a prospect.

Interesting point re the TX's in the WD amps vs the earlier WAD ones. I wonder if anyone can clarify this?

Edit: Just found a pic of a little trio of amps I had a year or 2 ago...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/Amps1small1.jpg

The A21's another amp I shoudn't have got rid of... :(

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 22:24

What a coincidence! I have two of those amps still.

Marco

09-10-2008, 22:44

Oi, Richard, I asked you a question earlier about belt-drives vs. direct-drives! When you've got a moment, like ;)

Marco.

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 22:51

Regarding the KEL,I can't substantiate my comment except by saying more than one person has told me this.Whether the output trannies were actually changed or not I don't know for sure.The people who told me have heard for themselves though!

Cotlake

09-10-2008, 23:07

Hi Ali,

Certainly WD changed suppliers for all Tx's on all their kits after they bought out WD. The emphasis on the change was to go for better quality! I can't comment on what you've said because that is the first I've heard of it unless this is some confusion around the early WAD KeL84's that I think used torroidal O/P Tx's. They got better when they introduced the EI Tx's, but that was long before WD were on the scene.

We used the latest version at the Heathrow Show for a while. I was gobsmacked at it's capability. We were in a 90m sq room and through the WD25TXL's it coped very adequately! Not bad for 15 watts.

Anyone pondering getting into DIY could not go wrong with this little kit. It punches way above it's weight and is just £500 which for high end sound......yes, that's what you get, is an absolute bargain. As a learning kit it is ideal because the circuit is on PCB so it's soldering by numbers. Easy to do and as said above, there is a shed load of willing help if problems are encountered both here, on the WD website and of cause from WD themselves. It doesn't stop once it's built. You then have the option of revisiting, upgrading and even selecting replacement components so you get the exact balance you need for your system. If anyone is thinking of going in this direction and has not explored DIY before, this kit is a no brainer. I challenge anyone to buy one and then claim not to be satisfied!

Best wishes,

Greg

Ali Tait

09-10-2008, 23:15

Hi Greg,

Well I can't really comment as I've not heard it for myself,but a couple of people who have heard WAD and WD KEL's both told me the same thing.I can say I'm dead happy with mine(WAD) it's pretty much unbeatable for the money IMHO.

Prince of Darkness

10-10-2008, 07:36

I can't comment on what you've said because that is the first I've heard of it unless this is some confusion around the early WAD KeL84's that I think used torroidal O/P Tx's.

Definitely not the KEL84's, these were EI from the start. WAD did use torroidal PSU and O/P transformers for one of their earlier budget amps, not sure which one (may have been KEL34), but as you say they later changed to EI's for the O/P's. Interestingly, WAD continued to use torroids for PSU transformers on several other power amps.
Certainly all the views I have read seem to rate the WD transformers as better than WAD.:)

Gromit

10-10-2008, 10:04

Oi, Richard, I asked you a question earlier about belt-drives vs. direct-drives! When you've got a moment, like ;)

Marco.

Difficult one this - the DD decks do get so much of the fundamental aspects of music (ie pitch/rhythm) very right, and for the money the sound quality available is a genuine shock. Of course with the upgrade-ability of the 1210 in particular it can make a for a formidable front end, at what is a bargain price.

Am I enjoying my records more than I ever have? Is the music speaking to me as well as it ever has? This is where things aren't necessarily so clear-cut...

The one thing I look out for with a hifi system is its ability to communicate - can I catch the phrashing/intentions of the performer for example? The almost miniscule dynamic separations which comprise the musical phrase - the build and release of tension (I could go on for hours but will spare folk the boredom!) etc etc. This is where the NAS always scored for me - and to some extent it's still the best turntable I've had at home, or heard for any real length of time over an hour or 2. Where it tended to fall down vs the DD decks is in portrayal of transient dynamics - of course one could blame the arm/cartridge/mounting set-up etc but I feel that, fundamentally, a turntable's character is a major influence on the final result and doesn't tend to change drastically. It just gets diluted or concentrated depending on its ancillaries.

The bottom line is, and I believe quite firmly in this, that a good turntable is a good turntable, and a bad one a bad etc.

Marco

10-10-2008, 10:20

Interesting, Richard, and I agree with much of what you say.

However, if the Spacedeck is as good as you say then why has the P-71 been your turntable of choice for quite some time now? If you missed the Spacedeck enough you'd be using it - it's as simple as that, mate :)

I would contend that the 'best' turntable (when one has a selection to use) is that which one chooses to listen to music on the most - that's the acid test... You're hardly going to (long term) deprive yourself of that pleasure, are you?

The fact that the Spacedeck remains unplugged and the PL-71 is spinning tunes I suspect tells us all we need to know. You're enjoying music more on it, pure and simple.

If I see future pictures of 'Gromit's music centre' with the Spacedeck regularly taking pride of place instead of the P-71 then I'll hold my hands up and say I was wrong! ;)

Marco.

Gromit

10-10-2008, 10:33

The NAS isn't being used because it's been sold - needed to free up the cash otherwise I'd still have it. I'll have to blame spending money on the new house for that. :(

Marco

10-10-2008, 10:41

Gromit

11-10-2008, 10:48

Ah, it's a goner. I didn't know that. That's even more conclusive then, mate.

Money spent on houses is always worthwhile though in my experience. I hope things are moving along nicely for you :)

Marco.

Thanks Marco - here's hoping. :)

We can't move in for quite some time but this is going to be our family home up near Cambridge once I finish working in London.

I'm thinking of doing a deal on my mate's WAD, just to have something to swap around every so often. The NVA pre works so well with it that I'm inclined to go for it. :)

jandl100

12-10-2008, 08:31

Jerry has my WAD 300b PP at the moment.Not a current kit,but if he would care to post his impressions it may give you an idea of what to expect from WD,given it's the first kit he's heard.

Hi Ali

Sorry, not been following this thread for a while. Big mistake! - some interesting stuff here.:)

To be perfectly honest, the hum and buzz that were coming from your WAD 300B amp were just too much to hear the music through - the S/N wasn't at all alarge number, so I really can't make any fair and sensible comment about sound quality. Shame the new 300Bs didn't turn up before I returned the amp, that might have sorted it.

Ali Tait

13-10-2008, 17:51

Still trying to get them :( Have mailed seller to see if he can sort it out.

Gromit

19-10-2008, 15:32

The P90sa pre has now arrived...so of course there's the obligatory pic. I call this one 'Black Magic'.... ;)

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2292.jpg

Looks better without the CD player mucking up the rack aswell. :)

The P90's s/a pots need running in (I found the 50sa took a week or 2 to really come on song) but already the increase in clarity and information is acutely apparent. :)

Marco

19-10-2008, 16:19

Gromit

19-10-2008, 17:47

Yeah, Richard, who needs that digital crap getting in the way... :eyebrows:
Looking good, mate. Your thoughts on the new preamp in detail would be appreciated when you get a proper handle on what it's doing.
Btw, are you going to RD's D/D bake-off? It's a shame that a fully fettled KAB 1210 won't be there to represent the Techy at its best.
Marco.

The 90's opening up almost by the hour - it was a little flat and 'grey' to start with but it's getting looser, more free with musical nuance and expression now.

Can't make RD's bake-off unfortunately - and like you say it's a shame there'll be no KAB there. Still, I'm sure the guys'll have fun. :)

Marco

20-10-2008, 18:09

Nice one, Richard. I do like the 'business-like' look of NVA gear and RD's approach (in most ways) to audio. Someday I must get a listen to his designs.

Marco.

Gromit

10-12-2008, 14:58

As of today...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2716.jpg

That'll start a few chins wagging :scratch:

Marco

10-12-2008, 15:00

Haha, it must be an optical illusion, mate! :lol:

Marco.

Peter Stockwell

10-12-2008, 15:00

Do you feel wobbly all over ? ;)

Gromit

10-12-2008, 15:04

I made sure I put up a few crucifixes (or whatever you do when you invite the devil round) up before I brought it home. :D

It's a comparison I've been itching to do for ages.

Marco

10-12-2008, 15:08

And? Stop being such a teasing biatch... :lolsign:

Marco.

Gromit

10-12-2008, 15:17

And? Stop being such a teasing biatch... :lolsign:

Marco.

All in good time young Skywalker. :smoking:

As to the Sondek's spec (so folk get an idea of the playing field here)...

1994 vintage LP12
Lingo 1
Trampolin
Cirkus
Akito B

I've popped my MC15 Super into the arm as I know the Akito doesn't really like the 103, and the MC15's a cracking cartridge (it's the Mk1 with boron cantilever etc).

Marco

10-12-2008, 15:25

I'm expecting something along the lines of: "good in its own way, but a different flavour from the 1210".

I know what I think. I did the comparison about 8 months ago, just to make sure I could write with authority on the subject ;)

However that was with a fully KAB-modifed 1210 and a slightly higher specified LP12.

Marco.

Gromit

10-12-2008, 15:36

I did the comparison about 8 months ago, just to make sure I could write with authority on the subject ;)

Marco.

Absolutely, and the very reason I too want to do this aswell, to lay to rest some of my own suspicions/thoughts on the whole subject.

The LP12's actually from work - borrowed it for a few weeks as it hardly ever gets used. It'll be fun. :)

Marco

10-12-2008, 16:17

I'll look forward to reading your thoughts, Richard :)

Marco.

Marco

14-12-2008, 11:54

Hey Richard, how are you getting on with the old 'fruit box'? Are you selling your 1210, then? ;)

Marco.

Gromit

14-12-2008, 18:40

Hey Richard, how are you getting on with the old 'fruit box'? Are you selling your 1210, then? ;)

Marco.

Ye Olde Fruite Boxe is sounding very good indeed - I tried to fit the 103 into the Akito yesterday but it's too wide for the headhsell. :scratch: Trouble is I don't like the MC15 in the PL71 - it's a bit too bright & breezy (although admittedly a very fast and entertaining old thing) to be honest. Not had much chance to do a proper lengthy comparison yet but hopefully will get a chance this week some time.

The Beresford's working well though and doing the business very nicely...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2735.jpg

Marco

14-12-2008, 23:26

I tried to fit the 103 into the Akito yesterday but it's too wide for the headhsell :scratch:

It'll go in with some 'gentle persuasion' - I've done it before, but we're talking a less than ideal installation with the cartridge wires all squashed up to buggery! :eyebrows:

I wouldn't bother though because the DL-103 will not work properly on an Akito - a) it doesn't have enough mass either in the armtube or the headshell (and adding weight to the headshell with coins, Blu-Tac, or whatever, only works to an extent but is by no means a panacea) and b) there is an upper-mid resonance peak on Linn arms (the Akito is no exception) which exacerbates the 103's already prominent midrange emphasis and slight graininess, making for a rather 'brightly-lit', in-your-face, presentation which is fatiguing in the extreme.

Of course the extent of this effect will vary from system to system but rest assured you're not missing much! The 103 is a far better match for the arm and headshell on your Pioneer, where it should perform extremely well.

I noticed that you mentioned over on pfm about the speed stability issues and 'wavering' on the likes of solo piano I hear all too easily with the LP12 and other similar low-mass belt-drive T/Ts, and which now my ears are attuned to the effect, I find extremely irritating. From my point of view, this alone would be sufficient reason never again to go down the low-mass BD route, regardless of any other 'charm' LP12s and such like may possess.

Marco.

DSJR

15-12-2008, 13:11

Akito? YUCH!!!!!!!

Sincere apologies folks...

Hey Gromit, when you have spare funds, why not try the Jelco like the one Marco is using. I reckon it would fit a Linn arm hole unless it's Rega length of course.. I still think the 103 bass weight would upset the LP12 though. An At33PTG would be much better as long as you have a decent external play-weight gauge...

Gromit

15-12-2008, 13:39

Hi Dave - the LP12's not mine so I can't really go around fitting new arms to it unfortunately.

Still, as it stands it does give me a good idea about where it stands sonically vs the PL71 - the fundamental character of the turntable still comes through. In fact I've spent a couple of hours this morning flitting between the two of them. I should (try to!) qualify my findings a bit first...

The LP12 was serviced approx 18 months ago by a Linn dealer (who gave it a 100% clean bill of health) and has had light use throughout its life. That's to ward off the 'well it didn't sound as good as it should because it needs a service' crew ;)

The Akito, love it or hate it (I don't mind it but appreciate there's better) is an arm designed to be used on the Sondek so should work. Both TT's are used on my Audiotech table.

So far...I've been putting the MC15 into the PL71 to keep the playing field as level as possible. I don't like it in the Pioneer but felt it only fair to do so for reasons of comparison-making...

The Linn vs the Pioneer: The PL71 is slightly softer but actually hits a good deal harder than the LP12, it's also more extended with less glare at the top end. It sounds hugely wider in soundstage terms aswell and drags more detail out of the grooves at the extremes of left & right. The PL71's bass is in another league - it's faster, gutsier, more focussed, with more fundamental pitch coherence and less bloom.

Downsides to the Pioneer are that it's possibly less clear through the midrange, slightly mushy perhaps, where the Linn has more cut to its sound. To counter this the PL71 has much better decay and resonance behaviour, especially on sustained piano chords which ring on for longer and with more definite feeling of space.

The biggest surprise (and this is where I thought the Linn would win out) is that the Pioneer simply has more groove, being funkier and more 'on it'. Listening to some Bob Florence Big Band lp's this morning the Linn didn't seem to want to play ball, comparatively, where the Pioneer just lets rip with the full force of a great big band in full flow. Put the 103 back in to the Pioneer and the gap just widens further. The Linn also didn't encourage me to turn the wick up as it tends to 'shout' when the going gets heavy - the Pioneer seems to deal with musical climaxes (and heavily scored music) without getting flustered and just seems to have more headroom.

So there you have it....in my opinion of course. :)

Peter Stockwell

15-12-2008, 14:17

The biggest surprise (and this is where I thought the Linn would win out) is that the Pioneer simply has more groove, being funkier and more 'on it'. .... The Linn also didn't encourage me to turn the wick up as it tends to 'shout' when the going gets heavy - the Pioneer seems to deal with musical climaxes (and heavily scored music) without getting flustered and just seems to have more headroom.

I think you have the Direct Drive/ Rubber Drive thing in a nutshell.

i_should_coco

15-12-2008, 21:45

Yup, ironic that the DD beats the Linn at it's own game...despite what the marketing would have you believe.

Gromit

16-12-2008, 00:11

Yup, ironic that the DD beats the Linn at it's own game...despite what the marketing would have you believe.

Absolutely Pete - if only we could have conducted some blind test between the LP12 and something akin to the PL71 back in the early 80's.:confused:

Forgot to mention the music I used during this little bake-off...

Al Jarreau - High Crime. Hefty bass synth which can easily catch out a poor turntable. Some superb vocal scat by AJ balanced by a couple of great ballads - 'After All' is particularly gorgeous. On the LP12 it was all very much in place but on the Pioneer it was a real event and something to savour.

Ravel/Perlemuter - Record One (of 3) of the Nimbus recordings. 'Le Gibet' is the killer here with much piano sustain recorded in a distant-mic'd natural acoustic. Such a shame they don't make records like this any more.

Eurhythmics - 'Conditioned Soul' from the Be Yourself Tonight album.

Grace Jones - 'Walking in the Rain' and 'Pull up to the bumper' from Nightclubbing.

Marco

16-12-2008, 08:33

The biggest surprise (and this is where I thought the Linn would win out) is that the Pioneer simply has more groove, being funkier and more 'on it'. Listening to some Bob Florence Big Band lp's this morning the Linn didn't seem to want to play ball, comparatively, where the Pioneer just lets rip with the full force of a great big band in full flow. Put the 103 back in to the Pioneer and the gap just widens further. The Linn also didn't encourage me to turn the wick up as it tends to 'shout' when the going gets heavy - the Pioneer seems to deal with musical climaxes (and heavily scored music) without getting flustered and just seems to have more headroom.

Hi Richard,

I concur fully with your observations; they match mine anytime I compare a low-mass BD deck like the LP12 to my modified 1210.

Hey, at least you *know* for sure now that your decision to abandon BDs and go direct-drive with the PL-71 was the right one. I salute your thoroughness, sir! :cool:

Marco.

pure sound

16-12-2008, 09:02

Absolutely Pete - if only we could have conducted some blind test between the LP12 and something akin to the PL71 back in the early 80's.:confused:

Sadly, that did happen although the DD contender back then was the UK made (Japanese mech) JBE III Slate.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/JBESlate.jpg

It was preferred by a group of listeners used in one of the magazines, there was uproar among the Linn selling advertisers and the conclusions were somehow re-written or subsequently dismissed. Presumably JBE had trouble finding stockists and closed not long afterwards. Someone like Howard or DSJR would probably remember this better. ( I only read the magazines about this 2 or 3 years after the event)

Interesting design though. Slate plinth, direct drive mech. Not much new under the sun even 25 years later!

It's stories like that, and the problems that companies with better designs like Pink Triangle, Dais & Townshend (amongst others) had gaining a foothold that irk people. More because progress was hindered while people swallowed the 'tune playing' nonsense for too long.

Marco

16-12-2008, 09:03

Akito? YUCH!!!!!!!

Hey Gromit, when you have spare funds, why not try the Jelco like the one Marco is using. I reckon it would fit a Linn arm hole unless it's Rega length of course..

Dave, the Jelco does indeed use a Linn-type fitting. As good an arm as it is though, I'm not sure that I'd want to 'vandalise' a lovely classic deck like the PL-71 by replacing the (pretty respectable) stock arm with a Jelco or anything else...

Classic T/Ts should really be enjoyed and used as they are :)

Marco.

Marco

16-12-2008, 09:16

It was preferred by a group of listeners used in one of the magazines, there was uproar among the Linn selling advertisers and the conclusions were somehow re-written or subsequently dismissed...

I'm glad that I was too young then and missed most of that shit when getting into hi-fi. I doubt though that my thoughts and decision making would have been so easily influenced and manipulated.

I just wish the Internet (and forums like this) had been around in those days. The less-brainwashed then could have exposed these charlatans for the w*nkers they were and (perhaps) then the outcome would have been different.

It's stories like that, and the problems that companies with better designs like Pink Triangle, Dais & Townshend (amongst others) had gaining a foothold that irk people. More because progress was hindered while people swallowed the 'tune playing' nonsense for too long.

Never truer words were said!

Marco.

Gromit

16-12-2008, 10:53

Sadly, that did happen although the DD contender back then was the UK made (Japanese mech) JBE III Slate.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/JBESlate.jpg

It was preferred by a group of listeners used in one of the magazines, there was uproar among the Linn selling advertisers and the conclusions were somehow re-written or subsequently dismissed.

Very nice, Guy. :)

One thing I do remember was back in Sept 79 (as a spotty 14 yr old who'd just got his first ever hifi system) University Audio in Cambridge organised a hifi show where one room was given over to a Linn-fronted system. Also present in that room alongside the LP12 (fitted with Mission 774 arm/773 cartridge) was a JBE with SME III like the one in your pic. They'd promised a 'Linn/JBE shoot-out' during the show. I'd just started to be slightly aware of the fact that Linn were obviously feeling slightly threatened here - how could someone have the audacity to actually put their product up against their baby?

Strangely enough, that Linn vs JBE shoot-out never happened - AFAIR the JBE sat there and didn't turn even one revolution all weekend.

pure sound

16-12-2008, 13:18

to be fair, by the early to mid 80's the fabulous but expensive Goldmund Studio had appeared and was also accepted by many (elsewhere in the world) as being a serious step up from the LP12 and its ilk.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/gstudio.jpg

Marco

16-12-2008, 13:40

to be fair, by the early to mid 80's the fabulous but expensive Goldmund Studio had appeared and was also accepted by many (elsewhere in the world) as being a serious step up from the LP12 and its ilk.

Hahahaha... Guy wins this month's 'Snappy' award for gross underestimation! :lol:

More like replacing "a serious step up" with "in a different league"!!

Marco.

DSJR

16-12-2008, 13:55

Marco, I was suggesting that Gromit replaced that awful arm on his LP12! Heaven forbid that the PL71 gets vandalised ;)

The JBE was a very good deck at the time. We sold a good few with Mayware arms and Sonus Blue cartridges, the combination sounding very effective as I remember. The LP12/Grace 707/Supex sounded a bit "sexier" but ultimately wasn't as faithful to the source (when was ever any different where the Lp12 is concerned?).

Marco

16-12-2008, 14:43

Ah, my mistake, Dave - apologies :)

I did like some of those early Grace/Supex LP12s, though. IMO, if you're going to have a coloured sound you may as well make it a 'sexy' one. How much of the 'sexiness' though do you think was due to the Supex cartridge?

Today's Cirkus/Lingo/Keel modified LP12s, whilst still coloured in the extreme, are about as 'sexy' an experience as having a red-hot 9" nail shoved up your bell-end! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Spectral Morn

16-12-2008, 17:14

The Goldmund was a Pierre Lurne design and in time an almost identical TT was released as Pierre's first TT. Nice deck and much better than the later Romance TT ( Romeo uni-pivot arm)which was very fragile as a design. It looked a bit like an oil rig and had pontoons for feet. However these were to heavy for the support struts. If lifted wrongly they cracked or broke. Still it was a nice TT sound wise at least.

My previous employer was the distributor for this brand and his CDP's were very good but sadly came with rubbish packaging, breakages due to transport damage were common. Pierre's gone back to analogue in the last year or so, but I have not heard ( his new arm and motor unit) it, so can offer no comment.

I once heard a shoot out at a Dublin show between a Linn Lp 12 and A Naim Lp 12. I much preferred the sound of the Naim Lp 12 but if I had a choice neither would be my first choice. However in saying that I re-built an Lp 12 a few months before loosing my job and after re-setting it up it was by far the best Lp12 I had heard and my boss agreed. So that issue with the soggy bass can be sorted.
Talking of old TT's I just loved the Voyd sound. Valdi or Voyd ref etc. these worked amazingly well with Audio Innovations amps,Rata Toryelite stand, Snell Speakers, Pirate stands and Audio Note cabling. Those were the days. " Wheres the ----- bass " PQ.

I still own an AI s 500 amp and a set of AI mk3 s 1000 mono amps, very nice indeed.

Regards D S D L---- Neil :)

pure sound

16-12-2008, 23:19

I met PL a few times. Lovely chap & very clever. I was amused when he told me that the Goldmund Ref was more an engineering showpiece & that the Studio was still the one to have!

aquapiranha

18-12-2008, 21:05

My old boss said he heard a JBE slate deck years ago, but the dealer refused to put it up against the LP12, I have no idea why.

Gromit

27-12-2008, 16:46

Picked this little beastie up from Bourney last sunday. It's just gorgeous in the flesh, and built like the proverbial stone latrine. Sounds damn good too going into the Beresford.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2793.jpg

scoobs

27-12-2008, 18:39

Lovely Rich. A timeless design. I lusted after one of those for ages.

Marco

28-12-2008, 00:42

Quality stuff, Rich - nice one! Lovely addition to 'the family' :)

Andy 831 has got one of those Sonys, too. I rate them highly - typical high quality Sony engineering when they decide to do it properly. I don't doubt it sounds superb with the Beresford. Enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

Beechwoods

28-12-2008, 06:15

Verry nice indeed :)

pjdowns

29-12-2008, 23:26

Hey Gromit,

Hope you are well.

A quick question if I may, my Naim CDI has got a fault and therefore I am relying on the Squeezebox, which is excellent but not quite up there in comparison to the CDI.

My question is, I have been advised that to have the CDI repaired will cost a minimum of £150, I have been thinking, should I get it repaired, being that it is 16 years old or do I trump for a Beresford DAC, similar to yours to use with the Squeezebox. I import all of the music as Apple Lossless in Auto mode through iTunes.

You're input would be gladly received.

Happy New Year,

Paul.

Gromit

30-12-2008, 08:34

Hi Paul - I'm well chuffed with the Beresford with the SB3 going through it. The DAC took a couple of days to warm itself up but now its extra clarity and sheer drive over the one in the SB is quite startling. For the money it's a no-brainer. :)

I used to have a CDI, so know it well. It was a fabulous machine but I was always mindful of the fact that it might go pop one day.

As to the Sony - I'm considering selling it as it's just sitting un-used. I bought it because it's a. gorgeous and b. it sounds bloody marvellous. Trouble is I just use the Squeezebox all the time and money for the Sony can go on my turntable project.

pjdowns

30-12-2008, 14:57

Gromit,

Thanks for the response. I agree totally that one of my biggest concerns about the CDI is that, if I was to get it repaired, what's to stop it from breaking a couple of weeks/months later ....

So how much would you be selling the Sony for ?

Sounds to me though as if a Beresford is becoming a no brainer ...

P.

Gromit

30-12-2008, 16:40

Hi Paul - I'd be after 200 quid for the Sony which is what I paid Bourney for it. It really is immaculate and such a gorgeous piece of kit right down to the magnetic puck which is such a beautiful piece of turned alloy. If you wanted it I'd deliver it for you seeing as you're in Berkshire. :)

I often miss my CDI but totally agree with your feelings of fear for its longevity. A truly great CD player - such a shame the transports are now obsolete.

The Beresford's fantastic - I really cannot fault it and for what one costs it's vfm rating is sky-high. OK one could say it ain't exactly pretty but for the money who's arguing? And you get a nice little headphone amp to listen to your digital sources on too. I'm going to get Stan to do the Mod21 for me in the New Year all being well. :)

DSJR

30-12-2008, 17:22

StanleyB

31-12-2008, 09:54

The thing is that once you start using a PC and DAC, a CDP is easily sidelined. I haven' used mine for ages.

pjdowns

31-12-2008, 13:12

Paul,

If you've had the mech replaced not too long ago and the puck has been sorted (we had this discussion elsewhere some months back), I'd almost be inclined to recommend having the thing repaired, whether you get the Sony in addition or not. I mean, £350 total is going to get you two CD players of which either would be better than a new Rotel or Cambridge at that price, surely?

I also thought the CD-I was a great sounding player and I personally thought it better than the CD2 and CDX which replaced it, much to the disgust of other posters on a different forum, who don't like my views of some of this brand's products (I should love everything they've ever made I suppose........;) )

Hi DSJR,

Long time no speak, hope you are well....

You are right that I had the mech replaced relativly recently, well 5 years ago and the Nextel ring is in perfect working order so I doubt it would just fail. Also I got a new puck so it is unlikely to be anything to do with that which is why my local Naim dealer has suggested that the fault is likely to be with the DAC. When playing a CD after the CDI has warmed up, it sounds as though you are traveling over train tracks LOL .... Not good

Reference the Sony, I am tempted, but I think I'm more likely to stump up the cash for the Beresford DAC as my entire CD collection is on the my Apple Mac now and able to be used with the Squeezebox.

Still tempeted to get the Naim repaired though, as you say, it is an excellent machine, and I'd agree that, certainly to my ears it was better than either the CD2 or CDX, although I think the CDX2 just stumps it but not my a lot....

The thing is that once you start using a PC and DAC, a CDP is easily sidelined. I haven' used mine for ages.

Thanks for that info Stensimila, I think you are totally right. Are you Mr Beresford by any chance ? ... I am getting a little confused LOL ....

Paul.

Ali Tait

31-12-2008, 13:33

Yes,Stan's the Beresford man! :)

DSJR

31-12-2008, 13:38

Hi DSJR,

Still tempeted to get the Naim repaired though, as you say, it is an excellent machine, and I'd agree that, certainly to my ears it was better than either the CD2 or CDX, although I think the CDX2 just stumps it but not my a lot....

Paul.

I know where you are on this one, having once had to spend £450 on a car repair to get £1100 when I sold it to a mate. The same thing would happen if you spent £150 to get a £300 - £400 return.

Who are you getting to look at it? Darren at "Class A" is an(the?) authorised naim service agent outside of the factory in the UK and he's cheaper than Naim themselves, once their dealers have added their margin to the service charge. You may know about Darren already, but I thought I'd mention him anyway (not sure if Avondale's Les can help with this machine, but you never know).

What this discourse has to do with Gromit's music centre I have no idea :mental:

You know, all this direct drive turntable rubbish needs to be replaced with a nice vintage Thorens springy belt drive with "organic" pitch accuracy. You all know how much sense it makes. I'll do a swap, a TD125 for that clapped out old rubbish PL71. You know it makes sense :ner: :cool:

Gromit

31-12-2008, 14:07

You know, all this direct drive turntable rubbish needs to be replaced with a nice vintage Thorens springy belt drive with "organic" pitch accuracy. You all know how much sense it makes. I'll do a swap, a TD125 for that clapped out old rubbish PL71. You know it makes sense :ner: :cool:

'Organic pitch accuracy' - I like that!! :lolsign:

As to my clapped out old Japanese fruit box...it's staying right were 'tis. :ner:

And based on the first couple of hours with the Technics this is going to be a very long journey to get it sounding as good as the Pioneer. No joke. In fact I'm wondering if the money might be better spent elsewhere to be honest - stuff like getting J7 to service and re-wire the arm etc etc.

Gromit

08-01-2009, 15:02

A Tecchy pic with the Orotofon MC15 - the Isolator is one of those really annoying things which shouldn't work...but does, extraordinarily well in this set-up:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2939.jpg

The OA RB251 should be here in the next week or so. :)

Arlequen

08-01-2009, 15:06

Hello Gromit ,

I'm curious about the Isolator .. where does it improve the sound?

Gromit

08-01-2009, 16:38

Hello Gromit ,

I'm curious about the Isolator .. where does it improve the sound?

Hi - where to start?

I bought this Isolator a couple of years ago from Walrus in London. Les was very much of the 'give it a try - I'm not going to say what I think of it, but let us know how you get on' sort of opinion. At that time I had my Spacedeck/Spacearm and a DL103R. The Isolator is very easy to fit but obviously needs a lot of vta adjustment in the arm to work. In the Spacearm its effect was subtle - I didn't detect any downsides really - and seemed to add a little more tonal colour to the sound. I didn't leave it fitted for long as I changed to a Lyra Dorian which didn't allow the Iso to be fitted due to its closed threads.

Fast forward to a couple of months ago and the PL71. This time the Isolator made a much larger difference (DL103 this time). Sibilance was much less, a couple of recordings which were 'shouty' became more playable yet the sound didn't lose any snap, punch or dynamism. I'd say it actually gained in those areas to be honest. Small things like lyrics are easier to follow, instruments gain in timbre and colour, bass is firmed up and hits harder. I cannot for the life of me think of a downside, but also cannot think why this thing works so well because in so many ways it shouldn't!

Putting it into the 1210 with the Ortofon MC15 Super has brought an even more marked improvement than it did in the Pioneer's arm. Again the dynamics have improved, bass is less laggy (it wasn't bad to start with!) and the colour has improved. Top end is clearer and more detailed.

The only way I can think that the Isolator works is by damping the cartridge very slightly, yet still allowing the stylus/cantilever to do its job and pass less unwanted energy into the arm. The soft/spongey material that the Isolator is made of is perhaps acting as an unwanted energy 'sink' yet still able to let the stylus do its job with less interference.

Only downside is that the sticky material to which the cartridge is bonded will only withstand a couple of mountings before it loses strength. The MC15 is a difference size & shape to the 103 so sticks to a different (still fully sticky) area of the Isolator than the 103.

If you Google it there are a couple of good reviews of the Isolator - they come to similar conclusions as I have.

Gromit

03-02-2009, 18:47

To add to the growing Royd collection I got myself a pair of these little babies the other day...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_2985.jpg

Typical Royds - not overly subtle, but they are just so addictive and hurl great big lumps of music at the listener. They get more right, imho, than many speakers do at many times their price.

I love 'em. :)

Gromit

11-02-2009, 22:35

I really should have dusted it first...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3086.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3089.jpg

This made me smile...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3099.jpg

...apart from my shitty old tripod isn't keen on keeping things still for 30sec exposures... :(

Sgt.Pepper

11-02-2009, 23:08

Love the cueing light,great for late night sessions :smoking:

Gromit

09-03-2009, 19:10

Happy Birthday to my PL71 - it's 35 years old this month....

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3103.jpg

Been having a play with my friend's KaT34 again...(and the camera)...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3154.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3150.jpg

It sounds very good, although the other afternoon Mrs Gromit and I had an hour of swapping between the WAD amp and just the little NVA A40 mono's (this gave us 32w/ch vs 40w/ch). We both came to the conclusion, fairly quickly actually, that the A40 is a clearly more musical amplifier showing a much greater degree of dynamic inflection and structure.

Marco

09-03-2009, 19:23

Gromit

09-03-2009, 19:35

Looking good as usual, Richard. Are you back to using your 103 again? I've not heard any NVA gear but it must be good to outperform the WAD amp in question, although the EL34 valve-based designs are a different ball game to the KT88 ones, IME.

Good to meet you at the bake-off, btw, in ya shexy leathers! :eyebrows: ;)

Marco.

Yup - the 103's nestling in the Pioneer's arm and seems very happy to be doing so. There's simply loads that this cartridge gets wrong but its musical bricks'n'mortar are so entertaining I can forgive the old nail. :)

I'm still sorely tempted by the SPU though - for me (along with a Decca) it's a piece of kit one should own at least once.

Talking of 88's I've got something in the pipeline there ;)

pure sound

09-03-2009, 20:04

Yup - the 103's nestling in the Pioneer's arm and seems very happy to be doing so. There's simply loads that this cartridge gets wrong but its musical bricks'n'mortar are so entertaining I can forgive the old nail. :)

It's funny what is tolerable and that doesn't corrupt the musical message and what isn't. Pete's Tannoys were another case in point. More flawed & less 'HiFi' in the accepted sense than pretty much any speaker at Scalfold, but despite that, hugely entertaining when simply playing music.

Marco

09-03-2009, 20:07

Nice one, Richard. You'll find that KT88-based amps have a totally different musical presentation, probably more like what you're used to with your NVA amps but with the magic of valves :)

I'm surprised you haven't commented and offered your thoughts on the bake-off thread, btw. Let's have some feedback, dude, good or bad! ;)

Did you enjoy the show - what did you think of the overall standard?

Marco.

P.S You may want to reply on the other thread to keep this one on-topic.

Beechwoods

09-03-2009, 20:09

Blimey, your turntable looks amazing. Great pictures too :)

Spectral Morn

09-03-2009, 20:15

I second that...very nice photos..well done.

Regards D S D L----Neil :)

Gromit

09-03-2009, 20:20

It's funny what is tolerable and that doesn't corrupt the musical message and what isn't. Pete's Tannoys were another case in point. More flawed & less 'HiFi' in the accepted sense than pretty much any speaker at Scalfold, but despite that, hugely entertaining when simply playing music.

Guy - couldn't have said it better myself. Robert and I went away from the show and talked about what we'd heard and pretty much came to the same conclusions. Pete's rig had such a sense of occasion and involvement which I've rarely heard from a hifi system. The fact that it was one of the least 'hifi' set-ups I'd heard on the day has such a wonderful sense of irony about it.

If Robert hadn't got to get away I'd have happily whiled away the last hour just sat listening to Pete's set-up. :)

Mike

09-03-2009, 21:02

Talking of 88's I've got something in the pipeline there ;)

Oooh... I wonder what that might be! :)

Gromit

10-03-2009, 16:58

Well it had to be done...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3221.jpg

Just running in at the moment, but already it's showing itself to be something a wee bit special. And I just adore the look of these things. :)

pure sound

10-03-2009, 17:04

looks the biz Richard, where from? Noteworthy?

I do like the SPU. Another example of an older design showing more modern, clinical, 'Hifi' sounding cartridges how to do it!

Gromit

10-03-2009, 17:36

looks the biz Richard, where from? Noteworthy?

I do like the SPU. Another example of an older design showing more modern, clinical, 'Hifi' sounding cartridges how to do it!

Hi Guy - indeed, from N'worthy. Popped in to see Peter this afternoon, just for a natter of course, came home with this.

It's the GM (spherical tip) version which they had in to try but never got round to mounting it. In fact this is the last one they had at the old price before they went bananas.

i_should_coco

10-03-2009, 19:43

Mike

10-03-2009, 19:48

Oooh... You'll have Marco getting all jealous now. :eyebrows:

Gromit

10-03-2009, 20:10

It's loosening up now having been played for the last 4 hours pretty much non-stop. It's quite remarkable (or perhaps it shouldn't be?) how similar it sounds to my beloved 103; big, ballsy, a tad prone to missing out on the odd bit of detail here and there (let's face it, no matter what anyone says, a spherical tip won't dig that last nth degree of stuff out of the groove) but it just sounds so 'right'. Coloured? Yeah, a bit. Fun? I reckon. :)

Knowing it tracks at 4g makes me chuckle as well...it will go up to 5g.

Marco

10-03-2009, 22:56

Mucho respecto, Ree-chard :smoking:

I bet it sounds shweeeeeeeeeeet as honey pie...

How did you manage to balance out the heavy fecker? :)

Marco.

Gromit

10-03-2009, 23:17

Mucho respecto, Ree-chard :smoking:

I bet it sounds shweeeeeeeeeeet as honey pie...

How did you manage to balance out the heavy fecker? :)

Marco.

Hi Marco - balancing was no problem, fortunately (tbh I was a bit concerned to start with) in fact it weighs less than the 103/HS12/ballast I'd been using.

On the scales....

103 rig (8.5+12+12) = 32.5g
SPU = 28g

As it tracks at approx 1.5g more than the 103 it obviously also means the c/w is further forward.

Marco

10-03-2009, 23:51

Nice one! I'll bear that in mind when I get my SPU. How much was it, if you don't mind me asking? Also, how did you handle its miniscule low output?

Oh, and I think it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the tonearm on the PL-71 is of a pretty high standard. I reckon that it's similar in terms of sonic signature to my Jelco SA-750D :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

11-03-2009, 09:18

Hi Richard,
Looking at the earlier pic of the WAD amp,it's sound could be vastly improved with some NOS valves.Those Edicron 5u4's in particular are pants IMHO.

Gromit

12-03-2009, 08:08

Hi Richard,
Looking at the earlier pic of the WAD amp,it's sound could be vastly improved with some NOS valves.Those Edicron 5u4's in particular are pants IMHO.

Hi AT - I've been having a play with some ECF80's which were very kindly loaned me be someone on the 'Wam. I had a pair of Telefunkens in my old KEL84 which worked very well - the same can be said here, and more interestingly there's a pair of old Brimars which are also excellent. A very noticable improvement on the std Edicrons and the CVC's I've got lying around.

The problem though I feel is that the KaT doesn't really like the Royds - they really need a good dose of solid state power to wake them up, and sound somewhat sluggish and diffuse when the KaT's asked to deliver at higher volumes. That's not the amp's fault of course (my friend uses this 34 to drive ESL63's into which it sounds truly wonderful) but more a speaker-amp mismatch. I'm looking forward to trying Mike's 88VA soon so we'll see how that goes. If that floats my boat I'm going to have a go at building my own one. :)

Ali Tait

12-03-2009, 08:34

Interesting,are the Royds a particularly difficult load?

Gromit

12-03-2009, 09:08

Interesting,are the Royds a particularly difficult load?

I'm pretty sure that they aren't, but they're only something like 86db/1w. When I had my Puresound A30 it also tended to display the same behaviour into them which is why I sold it on - had I been using more efficient speakers I'd have kept it as it sounded superb into my previous Audio Note AX2's, but being rear-ported they tended to react badly with the room.

Marco

12-03-2009, 09:19

Richard,

How did you cope with the SPU's very low output - are you using a matching transformer? :)

Marco.

Gromit

12-03-2009, 09:28

Richard,

How did you cope with the SPU's very low output - are you using a matching transformer? :)

Marco.

It seems fine - the Phono2's got loads of gain for it and is certainly quiet enough in terms of noise. It needs approx one more 'hour' on the volume control for the same level as the 103.

Marco

12-03-2009, 09:36

Ali Tait

12-03-2009, 09:37

Do the amps have 4-ohm tappings? Might be worth trying the speakers on these,they may be happier.

Gromit

12-03-2009, 09:44

That's good then because it is very low output. What about loading and impedance - can you adjust that on your Phono2? The SPU has a very low impedance rating.

When you feel like experimenting again sometime you should try it with a dedicated SPU transformer (such as the SPU version of my A23 or those from Ortofon specifically designed to match the SPU) through the MM input on your Phono2. I guarantee you'll like the results, which will be very different to what you're hearing now :smoking:

Marco.

The Phono2 doesn't have an MM input as it's MC only. I tried several transformers when I had my old 103R (which had a dedicated/matched tranny) and the Dorian - they all sounded great but I could never get rid of the problem of hum. Tried absolutely every trick in the book but to no avail. Ended up getting pissed off with it all and went to the Phono2 which sounds just as good, if not better, than all of them.

Gromit

12-03-2009, 09:45

Do the amps have 4-ohm tappings? Might be worth trying the speakers on these,they may be happier.

Just one set of speaker terminals unfortunately (presumably 8 ohm).

Marco

12-03-2009, 09:55

Interesting. Hum can be a problem with transformers - I have that very challenge myself at the moment since fitting the Jelco arm, as the interconnects Dave supplies, whilst sounding excellent, do seem to be hum magnets, but that'll be fixed when I visit him shortly. Hum wasn't a problem before when I had the Techy arm and the same cartridge and transformer.

Correct positioning, and eliminating earth loops seems to be the key with transformers. Get that right and generally there's no problem.

I've not heard the Phono2 so can't comment but I've tried loads of other active MC phono stages, some pretty expensive ones, with the 103 and none of them come close to emulating the performance I get with the A23 through the Croft's valve MM stage. Perhaps results are different through a valve phono stage? Since you're thinking about building a valve amp, why not build one with an all-valve MM phono stage and revisit the transformer thing to see what happens?

I'd be curious to know your thoughts and would willingly lend you my A23 for trial purposes :)

There's so much to learn with this hi-fi malarkey!

Marco.