View Full Version : Gromit's music centre...
Perhaps results are different through a valve phono stage? Since you're thinking about building a valve amp, why not build one with a valve MM phono stage and revisit the transformer thing to see what happens?
I was using a Puresound P10 (valve) phonostage at the time.
The hum problem did seem to be a 'local' issue as we tried the set-up at a friend's house where the problem wasn't as bad.
Interesting, Richard.
Out of curiosity, what transformers did you try? It's a bit of a lottery sometimes getting one that truly is the right match for a specific cartridge. The difference with the A23 is that its design is the result of years of experimenting by an avid 103 fan (Keith Aschenbrenner) trying to find the optimal transformers for the 103, so you know that his SUT is *right* (in terms of electrical matching) from the off. He's also voices things in a way which I feel really bring out the best in the 'old nail', as you put it. Keith is a 103 fanatic (amongst other things)!
You may find this an interesting read...
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/auditorium23/23_2.html
Here's a taster from page 2:
The Auditorium 23 step-up transformer for the Denon 103 phono cartridge is the product of much research by Keith into the principles that gave the historic audio masterpieces such a high degree of musical realism. Keith became fascinated with the beneficial qualities that transformers brought to those designs. "I came into contact with a lot of historic transformers in my research and was impressed with their benefits. I made it a goal to produce transformers with the abilities and characteristics of their historical forbearers. Transformers are important and very specialized partners for musical realism and because of that, there is no one transformer that is best for all impedances, ratios, cartridges and so on - each transformer has to be optimized for its application."
and:
It's always astonishing to me to hear how important the differences are when using properly implemented transformers in various applications. Because different transformers work best in any given application, I never will say this or that transformer is the best - it completely depends on the context of its application.
What he says is exactly what my experience has told me. It's quite a fascinating article...
When I was round at Dave's the last time he had a P10 and we used it with my A23 SUT and the sound was sublime (though there was some hum) - even Dave remarked that he'd never heard a 103 sound that good :)
Maybe it's one to revisit sometime? If you decide to build that valve amp, give me a shout and I'll lend you the A23 for as long as you need it :smoking:
Marco.
pure sound
12-03-2009, 10:13
Odd, the P10 makes no hum at all used in mm form & not even with most transformers although how arm earthing is done and how (& if) cables are screened will affect things.
Some unscreened 'audiophile' interconnects are hopeless for handling the low level signals going between a transformer and phono stage or indeed between phono stage and main amp.
That's very generous of you Marco - thanks.
The step-ups I tried were Guy's (then prototype) step-up with variable impedance which sounded excellent, and Noteworthy's own variety which they designed to match the 103 - this was then swapped for one which matched the Lyra, which then got sold to Ray.
I also got lent a pair of 'very old' (I think they were Partridge?) transformers in a home-made box by an electronics engineer friend of mine but they hummed like there was no tomorrow. He stated that at his home they were pretty much silent in terms of hum break-through. Jeez, we tried everything to shut them up but even he couldn't cure it, thinking in the end that there was some mains interference in our house, or a local transformer upsetting things.
Odd, the P10 makes no hum at all used in mm form & not even with most transformers although how arm earthing is done and how (& if) cables are screened will affect things.
Some unscreened 'audiophile' interconnects are hopeless for handling the low level signals going between a transformer and phono stage or indeed between phono stage and main amp
Guy, that's most interesting. What about the interconnect between the arm itself and the phono stage or SUT? The tonearm cables Dave supplies with the Jelco sound excellent, but perhaps they're unscreened and that's why they're acting like 'aerials' for hum?
When you move them about (whilst connected to the A23) the hum varies from really loud to medium, to a faint hum, depending on how you 'shiggle' the cables.
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Richard, you're welcome mate - just give me a shout. But have a read at that article from 6 Moons about transformers and their relationship with MC cartridges; it's most enlightening :)
Marco.
Odd, the P10 makes no hum at all used in mm form .
Indeed Guy - I found it quiet as a mouse in that state. We reckoned that transformers were just picking something up from either within the house or something local. Some cables seemed quieter than others, but the hum was always present when played at a decent volume. Shame, as sonically the whole rig was superb.
Listening to Ray's set-up (with the N'worthy step-up and P10) at his house there's no hum whatsoever, certainly none audible unless the wick was set to a crazy level.
Dave Cawley
12-03-2009, 10:34
No hum at all on my P-10 with a AT-630 transformer, AT-0C9ML/II, Jelco arm (both types) and Jelco/Neglex cable.
Dave
Hi Dave,
Perhaps it's the Neglex cables and their 'relationship' with the A23? Or just the A23 SUT itself? But then I never had a hum problem (using the same SUT and cartridge) before you fitted the Jelco... :scratch:
It's one we need to sort out, mate. Can you get hold of an alternative tonearm cable to plug into the 750 for when I come down? If we plug a different cable in and the hum goes then we'll know what the problem was! :)
Other than that, I'm open to suggestions.
Marco.
Dave Cawley
12-03-2009, 10:40
I think its a grounding problem, I have dozens out there, none hum.
Dave
Okay, no worries. But I think it's a good idea to have an alternative tonearm cable to hand, just in case that is the problem. The last thing I'd want is to make a 600-odd mile round trip and still not have the problem cured. We need everything necessary at our disposal to ensure that the problem is sorted :)
Marco.
Yes I think its a Arm grounding problem
I use 5ft of unscreened wire from the cartridge to sut inside the phono amp.
No hum and there are 4 anode 2 grid chokes and a bridging transfomer in the phono.
Connection of the sut output wire has to be about 1 inch any more and there is hum high imp. hum, low imp no hum pickup.
Hi Will,
Thanks for that - interesting. There is no issue with the cable I'm using for the output of the SUT to the preamp. I can 'jiggle' that about the place and nothing happens. It's the input lead on the SUT (from the tonearm) that's the problem when used with my A23 SUT.
Marco.
Check the tonearm grounding by attaching a wire to a gound point and then to the arm.
Its not the cable, if the cable is conducting hum from a ungrounded arm the hum will change with its position to other kit. This was what I found with a Hadcock or Haddock more like.
Cool. Where's the best place to attach the wire to the arm (it needs to be somewhere I can get easy access to without dismantling anything) and what's the best "ground point" for the other end?
Marco.
Marco did you try wrapping the bare end of the A23 earth lead around the end of your Jelco earth lead? This is how I solved my hum problem, having tried everything else in the book. It is now dead silent.
Incidentally, when I used a P10 with a highphonic sut, I had hum problems, which were cured only when I swapped out the 2 pairs of NVA super soundpipes for cheapo 'in box' interconnects, given that Richard (Gromit) now uses those very same cables I would recommend he tries the same if he encounters the same problem in the future, I'm not sure NVA pipes are the best type of cables to use with sut's and MM stages.
Marco did you try wrapping the bare end of the A23 earth lead around the end of your Jelco earth lead?
Hi Nick,
I tried that and unfortunately it didn't cure the hum. I think the grounding idea of Will's is a good one, but doing the wire thingy he suggested needs to mean that I don't have to mess with dismantling the T/T or arm to attach it. If that's not the case then I'll leave it for Dave to sort out.
Marco.
Marco
Just hold the ground wire against the arm tube, no need to dismantle at this stage.
Thanks for that, Will. I'll give it a go later :)
Marco.
Prince of Darkness
12-03-2009, 19:42
The Phono2 doesn't have an MM input as it's MC only.
To be more accurate, it is MC or MM only. For MM, use 47k input load resistors. For MC use step up transformers and select input load resistors according to cartridge.:)
Of course, I am assuming that the Phono2 in question is the WAD design.:lolsign:
Of course, I am assuming that the Phono2 in question is the WAD design.:lolsign:
It isn't ;)
Prince of Darkness
12-03-2009, 21:45
It's a NVA isn't it:doh:
LOL. Ya dafty! :lol:
Marco.
Prince of Darkness
12-03-2009, 22:35
Wot, me?:confused::mental::confused:
The SPU's running in nicely - it's smoothed out quite considerably, and now I've managed to fix the bias adjuster on the PL71 (it could be a bit hit & miss before) the tracking has improved markedly.
The downsides? I'm beginning to thing the SPU's asking just a little too much of the Pioneer's arm. Sure it sounds good from a balance point of view, but there's a sense that certain resonances are creeping through somewhere. I'm not 100% sure it's a keeper to be honest.
When you're ready to give it away, I know of a excellent charity in Wrexham who'll give it a good home :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
I'll give it a week or 2 Marco - playing with the vtf is helping a little, running at 4.4g seems about best although it does go somewhat against the grain. The thing's designed to run at anything up to 5g!!
I'll do it for a very good price ;)
We will discuss it later if necessary, although I may need a home trial first :)
Fancy a swapsy for a minty 103R?
Marco.
I'm sure something can be arranged. :)
Could be an interesting one - the R is a nice upgrade over the standard 103 :)
Anyway, have a play with your SPU for just now and keep me in the loop.
Marco.
Dave Cawley
13-03-2009, 17:53
I'll buy it too, sight unseen, as it is, no returns!
Dave
Hehe... Only if you can barge past me first :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Could be an interesting one - the R is a nice upgrade over the standard 103 :)
Marco.
I actually had an R a few years ago - got it from the States before it was imported officially into the UK. Seemed a bit more lively & open than the cooking one and had lower surface noise, if memory serves me right.
Couple more pics...(my missus thinks I'm crackers)...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3218.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3225.jpg
I actually had an R a few years ago - got it from the States before it was imported officially into the UK. Seemed a bit more lively & open than the cooking one and had lower surface noise, if memory serves me right.
That's the one :)
It also has a damped bodyshell which doesn't suffer from the resonances of the standard model. The extended high frequency response also gives much greater musical insight.
Marco.
That's the one :)
It also has a damped bodyshell which doesn't suffer from the resonances of the standard model.
Marco.
I've also thought the R has a different body material - it somehow seemed harder, more resistant to bolt-tightening (not that I ever do the bolts up very tight anyway) and even looks slightly different to the cooking 103.
Richard,
There's a coating applied to the body shell which aids rigidity and gives a 'gloss' finish. However the main difference, in terms of resonance, is that the internal of the body shell is damped by pads placed on each 'face' of the shell, which is completely absent in the standard model.
I only became aware of this after looking at pictures of the shells when someone had 'nuded' both cartridges.
One thing's for certain: there's a big difference between how both cartridges sound. The standard 103 hints at greatness; the 103R (and Pro) delivers it, and the 103SA puts the final icing on the cake! :)
Marco.
P.S Never over-tighten bolts - apart from risking damaging the body shell, it always sounds worse.
P.S Never over-tighten bolts - apart from risking damaging the body shell, it always sounds worse.
Coz it's rubbish! :ner:
JK ;)
LOL - indeed. What actually happens though with over-tightening bolts is that you cause the body shell to twist slightly and it's this that affects performance.
Marco.
Blimey!... That took over ten minutes!... I thought you'd have a 'response' quicker than that! :lol:
One day when you're as popular and important as me you'll find that you have more than one person to answer :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
Oh, I have no desire to ever be as impotent as you... ;)
HeHe!!!
Marco's right about overtightening the 103 (I had a 103D once and the fixing slots are very soft) and this applies to almost all plastic bodied cartridges. Rega supply a pre-set torque driver for dealers to use with their cartridges and I got told off by them when I re-tightened a Bias a few times using this tool as part of checking demo stock. A few goes with their own tool caused noticeable deformation of the fixing lugs, so be warned.
Hey, Rich, how's the SPU doin' now, baby? :smoking:
Marco.
Hey, Rich, how's the SPU doin' now, baby? :smoking:
Marco.
It's still running in, believe it or not (approx 30 hours on it now I guess). I keep swapping back to the good ol' 103 just check where the base line is, and each day the SPU seems to move a little further ahead. Virtually every other cartridge I've owned (too many to even think about) has taken approx 10 hours to get the bulk of its bedding-in done, after which point further improvements are only very subtle.
Nice one. It'll be interesting to know how it compares to your 103 when it's fully run-in :)
I've been reading your comments on pfm (great thread there, btw) and noticed you considering that the arm on the PL-71 may not be quite good enough for the SPU.
That could of course be the case, but I suspect not. I think some of the negative sonic aspects you're reporting could be to do with loading impedance. If you look at the spec in the link to Cool Gales below, you'll notice that the SPU must see an impedance of 10-50 Ohms (which is uncommonly low):
http://www.coolgales.com/store/cart.php?target=product&product_id=414&category_id=70
Are you absolutely sure that your NVA phono stage can provide this value and indeed it is what you're currently using to assess the performance of the SPU?
In my experience, correct loading is absolutely essential in order for any MC cartridge to achieve its full potential, or even to be heard properly. This is one of the reasons why I've found that specifically matched transformers work best. Even if your active MC phono stage is loading your SPU properly, I still suspect that it won't realise its full potential unless used with its original matching transformer into a MM input.
Thoughts?
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-03-2009, 12:22
Hi Gromit/Richard
How about putting your experiences with the SPU and Denon into the form of a review, when you have reached the end of the running in process, and as you say reach that base line, on which to make a comparison and form your concluding thoughts. I am very sure you would do a great job writing this review.
Many would enjoy reading this review which would go into the Strokes of Genius
section of the forum.
Regards D S D L---Neil :)
Hi Neil - it'd be no problem (and would be better than going on about it in the Gallery).
Marco - I've had a lot of success with step-ups of various persuasions with a fair few cartridges over the years, and fully appreciate (from my own good and bad experience!) that where a SuT is concerned, it is absolutely imperative that it is matched to the cartridge in question. Having had a play with Guy's (superb) prototype Puresound SuT with variable loading it was great fun to hear what each setting achieved 'on the fly'. The difference between each setting was not subtle. The 103R was fussy, the Dorian less so.
However...(and this is where it gets interesting)...
Active stages work in a very different way. Of course there are active stages, and there are active stages. I've been through a fair few (some good, some awful) and laying my cards on the table I've never heard a 103 sound as good as it does through the phonostage I'm using now - if it didn't I'd have got rid a long time ago. Folk will probably be quite familiar with the Dynavector P75 - I've owned 2 of these in both Mk1 & 2 variants and it's a really good-sounding little box and very adjustable. Thing is, most of those adjustments (when not in Dr T mode) make next to bugger-all difference and really jsut seem to act as subtle tone controls - greater sonic changes can be wrought by altering VTA tbh.
Richard did explain to me some time ago what's going on in the circuit of the Phono2 (I even understood some of it) but he simply stated that yes, where a SuT is concerned the loading is not just extremely important, but in fact vital. Basically, the Phono2 has a load-rejecting circuit which means the cartridge's performance isn't altered by any change in the stage's input impedance. All I know is that my ears are telling me it sounds bloody marvellous.
No worries, Rich - some interesting info there :)
Like I said, I'm completely unfamiliar with NVA designs so can't comment on how they operate. Obviously the results you're getting are excellent, which is all that matters. Out of curiosity though at some point it would be interesting to see what you made of the A23 with your 103 (and an MM stage), so I'll definitely lend it to you to evaluate when you feel like playing :smoking:
Do NVA make an MM only phono stage?
Marco.
Out of curiosity though at some point it would be interesting to see what you made of the A23 with your 103 (and an MM stage), so I'll definitely lend it to you to evaluate when you feel like playing :smoking:
Do NVA make an MM only phono stage?
Marco.
That'd be cool Marco - always up for trying stuff out, thanks. I'm thinking of getting the MM version of the Phono2 to go with my MC one, simply because I've a couple of nice MM cartridges I'd like to use every so often. Would be a simple case of swapping the psu's cables over.
No worries - when you decide to get one, I'll wing the A23 over to you :cool:
Remember to give me first refusal if you decide to let that SPU escape ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-03-2009, 23:00
Hi Neil - it'd be no problem (and would be better than going on about it in the Gallery).
Thanks Richard .
Its good that you are using the Gallery section but a review in one place with lots of nice photos makes it easier for those who might not see the gallery as a place to look for such info. We all know you do and its been very interesting. However a gathered info review would be more accessible in SOG, IMHO of course.
Thanks for agreeing to do a review, when you can. And if you want to review anything else for SOG please do feel free to submit such, when you want.
Regards D S D L----Neil :)
Here's an interesting site for nostalgia-loving SPU owners (and other classic cartridges):
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ortodeccatan.html
:)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
18-03-2009, 23:02
Nice Link Marco
Regards D S D L----Neil :)
Just got Mike's rather lovely WD88VA XL - it sounds pretty damn good, although as you can probably see, one of the 88's hasn't survived the journey dahn sahf so am waiting on a pair of new 'uns.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3256.jpg
I've been assured (by 2 chaps who are recognised experts in these matters) that it's a dicky valve - if I swap the pairs round (or just swap the duff one with its partner) the glow stays with the same valve, not the socket.
Let's return briefly to SPUs... This is what you need, dude:
http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=3936
That and your shooperb SPU - lurvely! :)
Marco.
One nice, spangly-new and matched (to the rest of 'em) Cryo'd Winged C arrived from Anthony today (quick plug - Anthony's a particularly top chap) and the amp's up & running perfectly :)
It's got plenty of poke, driving the Royds with no problem at all. They're not the most efficient speeks around (about 87db/1w) but are an extremely easy load. Bass is taut and quick with no transient slowing even when cranked up louder than I'm comfy with.
Expect another load of drivel, courtesy of yours truly, in the SofG bit over the next few days.
Spectral Morn
31-03-2009, 22:19
Expect another load of drivel, courtesy of yours truly, in the SofG bit over the next few days.
Excellent, thats what I like to hear. Your words are hardly drivel though.
Regards D S D L
A few more piccies...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3268.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3276.jpg
Note to self - I really ought to get the duster out before, not after, the camera.... :doh:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3279.jpg
Nice, Rich, and with the Svets in situ too I see! :)
Are those ECC83/12AX7s on the front, and if so, which ones are you using? I can let you borrow some NOS Telefunken 'smooth plates' (one of the best ECC83 types you can buy) to try if you're not already using them.
And good God man, when are you binning that 'rubbish' old SPU? :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
P.S Anthony is indeed a top man - you will not find a better person to give you advice of a valve-related nature.
Hi Marco - the amp runs a single 12AX7 which is a Mullard I believe (I think that's what Mike said!). The ones either side are 5687 JAN Philips.
As to the SPU - it's staying for now. I've been away for a few days so not had much chance to listen to it until today - now it's finally running-in I've had a fiddle with set-up which has paid dividends. It really seems to like running slightly tail-down, helps to cure its slight propensity to 'spit'. I've often found the 103 does this if run too 'hot' (ie tail up/bright) as it were.
Nice, Rich, and with the Svets in situ too I see! :)
Are those ECC83/12AX7s on the front, and if so, which ones are you using? I can let you borrow some NOS Telefunken 'smooth plates' (one of the best ECC83 types you can buy) to try if you're not already using them.
It's my old amp you clown, you should know what's in it seeing as you've heard it in your own system! :lol:
Front middle is a NOS Mullard CV4004 - Tele's made it sound a bit flabby. The other two are JAN Philips 5687's, I mucked about with various other brands of those and always went back to the originals... they're the best of the breed IMHO. There are a few that are alleged to be better but they cost silly money! :mental:
Possibly that could be the case, Richard. I've never owned an SPU so wouldn't know how one is best set-up. I'm glad it's doing the biz for you, though :smoking:
As for the 103, I completely agree. 'Tail-up' it can spit like hell, particularly when there is insufficient mass on the arm and/or headshell. The 103 definitely likes to be completely parallel to the record playing surface - in fact, bang on in that respect.
The Mullard you've got is probably one of the ones I sold Mike before I upgraded to the Telefunkens ;)
Good though the NOS Mullards are, the Teles, IMO, are considerably better (more open, detailed and dynamic sounding, but not bright - less of a 'signature', if you will). If you'd like to try one pop me a PM :)
Marco.
The Mullard you've got is probably one of the ones I sold Mike before I upgraded to the Telefunkens ;)
Nope... scroll up a bit!
Good though the NOS Mullards are, the Teles, IMO, are considerably better (more open, detailed and dynamic sounding, but not bright - less of a 'signature', if you will). If you'd like to try one pop me a PM
Bollock! :ner:
They make the WD88 sound like a bloaty old thing... might be worth a try in a bright system though.
Oops, I missed your last post on the previous page :eyebrows:
Hey, I wouldn't know one WAD KT88 amp from the other or what's used in them!
Still, I'm very surprised that the Teles sounded "bloated"; that's precisely the opposite effect they had in my Croft - the Mullards were bloated in comparison... :scratch:
Maybe you had duff Teles!! ;)
Shows you though how significant the effect of different circuits are and how there is no such thing as the 'perfect' valve for every similar application!
Marco.
I'm exaggerating a bit... :eyebrows:
The Telefunken was good valve, it just didn't suit the amp/system/me as well as the Mullard did, seemed a bit too 'full' in the bass dept. Might be different for Richard. ;)
It might be... But then perhaps the effect will be different in his system? Sounds like it might be one for him to try out :smoking:
"Bloated" is not how the Teles sound chez-moi!! It was probably your Castles ;)
You've heard my system and know my tastes, matey - I would never use valves which sounded bloated :)
Marco.
I will get round to writing up something about the amp but have been a bit too busy the last few days (and I haven't been at home) but here's another pic anyway...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_3300.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2009, 22:44
It might be... But then perhaps the effect will be different in his system? Sounds like it might be one for him to try out :smoking:
"Bloated" is not how the Teles sound chez-moi!! It was probably your Castles ;)
Marco.
I'd agree fully with you Marco, my experience with the Telefunks is quite the opposite to bloated! I'd describe the difference between them & the Mullards as comparing a sharp Italian city suit to a 'well lived in' tweed deerstalkers jacket.
Crisp, sharp, initially impressive (a trait often confused with detailed)..... but ultimately without soul.
My SP8 loves the flavour of venison!!
Of course, that's not to say that in a different situation and a different set of ears the Telefunks mightn't suit.
(No reflection on your roots Marco, my man!)
Beechwoods
08-04-2009, 06:07
I will get round to writing up something about the amp but have been a bit too busy the last few days (and I haven't been at home) but here's another pic anyway...
Great picture... you've got a nice glow going there. It's looks like the northern lights!
Hi Chris,
Hehe... No worries :eyebrows:
Crisp, sharp, initially impressive (a trait often confused with detailed)..... but ultimately without soul.
I completely agree with you regarding the Teles - that's exactly what I found in my system: they were uber-detailed and 'neutral' sounding, but ultimately rather 'cold', and yes, lacking in 'soul', which is why I changed them for the NOS military spec Tesla E83CC 'frame grids' as these had the neutrality of the Teles but gave music more of its natural colour and timbre.
So far, the Teslas are the best ECC83/12AX7-type valve I've heard, but I'm shortly going to be road-testing some EAT 803S from Pistol Music, which are supposed to be the ultimate (at a price!), so we'll see how they compare to the Teslas :)
How Mikey found the Teles "bloated" sounding is anyone's guess!!
Rich, seriously cool shot of the famous 'KT88 glow' :cool:
I hope you're enjoying 'life in bottles' :smoking:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
08-04-2009, 07:24
Marco,
So far, the Teslas are the best ECC83/12AX7-type valve I've heard, but I'm shortly going to be road-testing some EAT 803S from Pistol Music, which are supposed to be the ultimate (at a price!), so we'll see how they compare to the Teslas
Have you tried the Mullard M8137's or even better, the CV4004's? The CV's are the ones for me - All the good traits of the Telefunko's, none of the head scalping incisiveness & with proper bass.
getting pricey now, though!
Cheers
Chris
Chris, I've tried CV4004s which I found good but nowhere near as special as their reputation suggests. I would rate them in my 'top 5', though. I've not heard M8137s - how do they compare to CV4004s in your experience?
The thing with valves (NOS ones in particular) is that there are so many anomalies to consider, notwithstanding variations in performance between examples of the same valve type due to differing degrees of output from sample to sample and them all measuring differently, which makes it nigh-on impossible to make blanket recommendations for every system and/or stating which one is the 'best'.
The 'best' valve will always be that which works best in the particular circuit in which it is applied and also that which the listener deems to suit his or her ears! :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
08-04-2009, 19:29
Chris, I've tried CV4004s which I found good but nowhere near as special as their reputation suggests. I would rate them in my 'top 5', though. I've not heard M8137s - how do they compare to CV4004s in your experience?
Actually Marco, I stuffed up a bit with my last post & mislead you rather badly!
Where I wrote M8137, I should have put CV4004, and vice versa, sorry!
I found the CV's to be very good indeed, but the M8137's seem to be superior in every way, except perhaps microphony, though certainly not in the noise department. I only use them in the phono stage & prefer JAN 5751's in the line stage. I tried the 5751's in an attempt to take advantage of the extra gain available, but could detect no real difference there. However the mixture of the two types seemed to gel particularly well.
As we've both concluded several times on different subjects: It all depends, doesn't it?
Cheers
Where I wrote M8137, I should have put CV4004, and vice versa, sorry!
They are the same valve!
I've gone over this with Marco before. He has the memory of a Goldfish!
The Grand Wazoo
09-04-2009, 16:44
They are the same valve!
I've gone over this with Marco before. He has the memory of a Goldfish!
Yes, I remembered the previous thread. The difference I hear must be batch related I guess.
Ali Tait
09-04-2009, 16:46
Yep that was my impression too Mike.Whatever,yes,a nice valve! A few a have posting very favourable impressions of the new TJ ecc82/3's.May be even better than Mullards!
Yep... quite likely Chris.
Be aware though, that CV simply means 'Common Valve' (there is no such thing as "military spec" :P). In many cases a CV valve may have been supplied by any number of manufacturers. There is usually an acid etched code on the glass which needs to be translated to establish the exact manufacturer and other details. The CV4004 in Gromit's amp is definitely a Mullard M1837, I know coz I put it there! :)
There's a useful CV lookup tool HERE. (http://www.tubecollector.org/cv-valves.htm)
Cheers...
Yep that was my impression too Mike.Whatever,yes,a nice valve! A few a have posting very favourable impressions of the new TJ ecc82/3's.May be even better than Mullards!
Yeah, I've heard good things about the TJ Fullmusic valves too Ali, I fancy giving them a go sometime. :)
Ali Tait
09-04-2009, 17:02
Yeah might get some for the Audioromy.Not cheap,but cheaper than Mullard!
They are the same valve!
I've gone over this with Marco before. He has the memory of a Goldfish!
LOL! Do you want to try running the forum and dealing with as many things as I have to do and see how much you remember about every aspect of every discussion you take part in? ;)
FYI, I did remember our conversation regarding both those valves but that doesn't automatically mean that your experience and that of Chris will be one and the same. I was simply asking him to relate his experiences, which were of interest to me.
I trust that this meets with your approval, shweety! :ner:
Marco.
I was talking about the M8137 and CV4004 being the same valve... didn't mention anything about 'experiences'! ;)
Ok, dahling :eyebrows:
Marco.
A lot has been happening in the last 18 months...most notably we've moved from London (hurrah!) and at last have a decent listening room. After being without a turntable for a while, I picked up this gorgeous little TD150 off a certain auction site...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/CRW_4513.jpg
The arm, whilst 'ok' isn't really up to much (and it had very sloppy bearings) so, in keeping with its era I got an early 3009 (non-improved) for it...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/CRW_4725.jpg
Amps at the time were Exposure XXI/Super XVIII mono's - lovely things (as most folk know, I'm a die-hard Farlowe-Expo fan) but I moved this on to concentrate on the front end, in the meantime replacing them with a nigh-on mint condition Inca Tech Claymore...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_1453.jpg
A really punchy, musically dynamic little amp with what seems like a seriously good phonostage lurking within.
I did have a brief flirtation with a Rega P7 although it didn't really work out - it's presently winging its way to Finland to its new owner so I'm keeping everything crossed hoping it gets there safely!
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_1447.jpg
Lastest acquisition is another PL71 which has been a little like coming home. No massive plans for this - I may remove the arm and transfer it to a 1210 or possibly even a Garrard, or I may just keep it looking smart and leaving as-is. The arm's going away for a re-wire soon so we'll make a decision on that when it returns...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5045.jpg
The Thorens may be receiving a re-plinth (been in touch with Russ Collinson about this) and a possible re-arm too. It's such a lovely sounding turntable - seems to have slight similarities with the LP12 (no surprise, they're nearly identical!) but it somehow doesn't frustrate me like the Linn, and doesn't really mind what music I play on it.
chris@panteg
31-01-2011, 00:17
Hi Richard
Looks in nice condition :) and a fine piccie i must say .
The fact that your TD 150 is "Made in Germany (by by EMT) under Swiss licence (Thorens)", will add greatly to the value of your acquisition! :)
My new baby...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5133.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5141.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5143.jpg
The 401's a 'work in progress' at the moment, but will still make an appearance at Scalford next weekend. It does have some slight speed stability issues but a strip-down and motor service will sort that. Very little if any rumble from it though which bodes well, and sound-wise I'm absolutely loving it - the 3009 was also subject to a full Cardas re-wire and re-build by Johnnie7 very recently and has taken a big leap in sonics. :)
Hi Richard,
Oooh...that looks purdy - certainly a lovely clean 401! :)
Did it come in the plinth, or is that something you've had made specially? I'll defo pop by your room at Scalford for a listen. Are you taking your full system?
Do swing by the AoS room, where we'll be demo-ing a fair bit of vintage kit, including some Celestion Ditton 66 Studio Monitors, which I recently 'purloined' from Ebay - oh and you can sneak a squint-ette at your old SPU spinning some tunes on the Techy! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco - thanks for the kind comments. :)
I bought the 401 as a motor unit only, and got Russ Collinson to make the plinth up, which arrived on saturday. It's a hollow box, fairly light weight but the wood's extremely dense (drilling some holes in the back of it for cables was fun!) and quite inert. The finish on the plinth is flawless, and was certainly great value. The 2 boards underneath are simply a cannibalised Ikea Corras with 4-halved squash balls to separate them.
Will certainly try to pop into the AoS room at the show - I'm determined to take an hour off in the middle of the day this year unlike last time when I didn't leave the room.
Rare Bird
28-02-2011, 06:10
The 401's a 'work in progress' at the moment, but will still make an appearance at Scalford next weekend. It does have some slight speed stability issues but a strip-down and motor service will sort that.
Don't '401's look great eh! I'd be tempted to veneer that plinth if it were me..
Well my '401' use to drift out when i first use but settled down after a bit..i used to start it running half hour before.
Spectral Morn
28-02-2011, 12:07
Beautiful turntable :)
Regards D S D L
Rare Bird
28-02-2011, 14:17
Nice to see the SME bed plate uniform to the motor unit, why people always have this compulsion to mount them at an angle is beyond me..looks very neat Rich. nice Audiotech frame aswell..be nice with a loverly slab of granite..Why have i got this urge to buy another '401' even though i have no intension's on going back to vinyl!
Nice to see the SME bed plate uniform to the motor unit, why people always have this compulsion to mount them at an angle is beyond me..looks very neat Rich. nice Audiotech frame aswell..be nice with a loverly slab of granite..Why have i got this urge to buy another '401' even though i have no intension's on going back to vinyl!
To achieve the maximum range of stylus overhang (and hence minimum tracking error), the bedplate of the SME arm needs to be aligned along a radius from the centre of the turntable (i.e. the spindle).
Mounting the bedplate parallel to one side of the turntable will reduce the range of adjustment. For some turntables this is the only possible option: on the Thorens 124, for example, the arm board is not wide enough to allow full radial alignement. Usually, on my TD124s, I use an armboard where the bedplate is aligned parallel to the right-hand edge of the turntable and this is sufficient for the great majority of cartridge/headshell combinations. Recently however, I have been using a Decca/EMT headshell + adapter and this required me to change the armboard to one with a near-radial bedplate alignement, otherwise there would not have been correct stylus overhang.
Sometimes aesthetics has to give way to essentials - though I agree parallel alignment has a certain elegance about it.
Regards
Rare Bird
28-02-2011, 21:27
Ger out with thi, theres plenty room for adjustment how he has it...i'd agree if it was just a sloppy stick it there it will doo fitting!
Ger out with thi, there's plenty room for adjustment how he has it...i'd agree if it was just a sloppy stick it there it will doo fitting!
The arm is already as far back as it can go in the bedplate. Fortunately there is some adjustment available in the Sumiko headshell. If an SME headshell was being used, there would be no further room for adjustment.
Hi Richard,
Hope you're continuing to enjoy your superb 401 :)
Just a thought regarding mats... You may want to try using a Rubato copper mat on your Garrard.
The reason I'm suggesting this is because there's a school of thought which says that because there exists that huge lump of metal underneath the platter (called the motor ;)), that it generates a magnetic field and also causes eddy currents which adversely interfere with the response of the cartridge, consequently affecting its accurate retrieval of high frequency information.
I'm not necessarily referring to the 'veiled top-end' many people mention of Garrards (I don't really agree with that), but simply a subtly deliterious effect which may exist that you're not currently aware of. I've heard enough of this effect with T/Ts to believe that it's a very real issue for any turntable which has its motor unit and/or PSU underneath the platter.
Therefore at some point I'd advise you to try the Rubato copper mat, which due to the copper used in its construction, acts as an effective shield against stray magnetic fields and eddy current interference. Guy Sergeant of Puresound stocks them, and I'm sure if you ask him nicely he'll send you a sample to try. It also performs as a very good T/T mat in its own right.
Either that or obtain a thin plate made from MuMetal, drilled out in the centre for the spindle, which fits the circumference of your platter, pop it on, and then place the mat of your choice on top.
I'm confident that if you were to try either of the above that it would result in an even better sound than you're getting now :cool:
ATB,
Marco.
Hi Marco - I'd certainly be up for giving the copper mat a try, would be an interesting excercise. I too am slightly confused by this notion of a 'veiled' treble which certain journos have accused the Garrards of posessing; I spend every day of my working life in fairly close proximity to a drum kit and the 401 has a quite uncanny ability to render cymbal colour (one thing these chaps seem to knock the Garrard for not portraying 'correctly') in a convincing manner without any sort of 'hifi' embellishment. It's not a bright turntable - but on the other hand if there's treble energy there it'll certainly let you know.
I'll drop a line to Guy at any rate. My first priority is to get my 401 running sweetly though, it could do with a good service after which it'll be time to start building it up.
I agree about the Garrard, as the good ones I've heard are not veiled sounding in the slightest.
It's like any other properly designed piece of equipment - you hear the frequency extremes with music when they're meant to be there, and not artificially superimposed onto everything in order to create a false 'excitement factor', like most equipment today ;)
Regarding the Rubato copper mat, yes, I'd put that pretty high up on your tweaking 'things to do' list, once you've got a proper handle on the sonic and musical signature of your 401.
In the meantime, enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
Couple more piccies...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5246_2.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5249.jpg
We've been furnishing our new place, and to tidy things up where the hifi is concerned we went for this solid oak shelving unit. It weighs a ton (not literally of course!) but certainly takes 2 people to lift it safely. I was initally slightly concerned that it wouldn't help in terms of the Garrard's sonics, seeing that it used to be sat on a dedicated turntable table (Audiotech). I needn't have worried though - it works really well, and rumble/background noise it still pretty much non-existent. :)
And the increase in WAF has been worth the hassle. :)
Rare Bird
12-03-2011, 01:01
Awesome i love sparce but comfy rooms..love berber type carpets ..
Awesome i love sparce but comfy rooms..love berber type carpets ..
Thanks Andre - you're very kind. :)
A few more pics...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5293.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5299.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_5300.jpg
I'm loving my Garrard now - the speed issues it had when I first got it have now pretty much disappeared, which makes me think the thing just really needed some use (it does anything between 4-6 hours playing a day at the moment). It now sounds fabulous, and Johnnie's re-working of the 3009 has been little short of miraculous...it truly sounds like a different arm since it was re-wired/serviced and adjusted.
Mind you, it still doesn't stop me hankering after something like the 12" Jelco. :)
Spectral Morn
17-03-2011, 16:08
Beautiful system, room and photos.
Thanks for sharing Gromit
Regards D S D L
Yo, daftee, his name's Richard ;)
And yes, I agree!
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-03-2011, 17:59
Yo, daftee, his name's Richard ;)
And yes, I agree!
Marco.
:ner: :lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Looks great Richard, I still think those stands go so well with your Royds, you'd think they were made for them.
Oi, where's yer P1 spacer then?
There's a 401/SME mounting template on fleabay right now and your arm looks to be a tad too far out. Obviously open to interpretation as your arm could be a touch further forward than the template suggests.
Regarding the Thorens tone arm. It was designed in the days when the Shure M75-EJ was almost "top end" foir many users. I found it possible to tweak the vertical bearings and oil-damp the horizontal ones with little difficulty. It finally seems though, that the hugely mis-understood Lenco L75 arm is now coming into its own once the V blocks are done and a suitable cartridge is fitted.....
Oi, where's yer P1 spacer then?
I believe from my conversation with Richard at Scalford that an eBay seller had let him down, hence why no spacer: :( (Still sounded a mighty fine system, though, and the Russ Collinson plinth looks even better in the flesh. Me likey!)
Oi, where's yer P1 spacer then?
I took it off, Dave...
1. Coz the (genuine) SME screws aren't long enough to allow the spacer to be attached firmly - there's not enough thread left on them to really grip into the plinth properly. Keeping the rubber grommets in place on the bedplate, the spacer was loose no matter how tightly I did the screws up - didn't want to force them for fear of stripping the self-tapped threads in the plinth. Removing the grommets from the bedplate and mounting the arm solidly just made it sound 'odd' for some reason.
But more fundamentally...
2. The arm sounds better, even though it's at its height limit, without it.
I'm looking into getting Russ to make up a separate armboard to raise the arm by 5mm or so - that way I can enlarge the present SME-cut slot into a larger hole which will allow other arms to be fitted over it, on their own armboards. I've already had to move bedplate position out another 5-6mm, enlarging the SME slot, to get proper alignment as it was too close to spindle before.
I believe from my conversation with Richard at Scalford that an eBay seller had let him down, hence why no spacer: :( (Still sounded a mighty fine system, though, and the Russ Collinson plinth looks even better in the flesh. Me likey!)
Hi Alex - the spacer turned up in a little over 24 hours (well before the Show) it was the SME screws which I was waiting for. They arrived on the tuesday after Scalford, 10 days after I bought them. :rolleyes:
Hi Alex - the spacer turned up in a little over 24 hours (well before the Show) it was the SME screws which I was waiting for. They arrived on the tuesday after Scalford, 10 days after I bought them. :rolleyes:
Apologies - thanks for clarifying.
Interesting about the sonics. Shows what would happen in the days when the obvious would have been to add a spacer, despite decoupling the arm further from the board. With V15, I doubt you'd have noticed much difference ;)
Awesome I love sparce but comfy rooms..love Berber type carpets ..
Agreed. I wish my room was as free from clutter, though I do have a Kashmiri silk rug and a Persian wool rug.
Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose...innit...
A few weeks ago I finally got the PL71 arm all sorted (it was humming badly) so got it fitted to the Garrard...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7000.jpg
I sounds good - better than the (AO-fettled) 3009 II - but it wasn't the sonic bullseye I was hoping for. So, feeling sorry for my poor little PL71 sat on top of the wardrobe in our spare bedroom, I finally got round to bring the old wooden wonder downstairs this morning and re-acquainted it with its own tonearm.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7018.jpg
It doesn't have quite the sonic fireworks of the 401/PL71 combo but it's just so darn listenable and effortless in its music-making. Sure, some turntables have more resulotion, more impact, tighter bass blah blah but this is just so much fun. Johnnie's re-working of the Pioneer arm has been a small revelation - it's now Cardas'd up to its base where he's modified a Cardas plug/socket to fit under the turntable. He re-adjusted the bearings and generally gave the arm a good once-over.
Not sure the SAS Jico'd M75 is a great match for the heavy Pioneer arm but it's not doing too bad a job all things considered. :)
In this case, you could try a rigid but lighter weight headshell which may shave a few grammes off the overall effective mass. Some posh headshell wires would also make you feel better about supposedly "downgrading" the shell :)
In this case, you could try a rigid but lighter weight headshell which may shave a few grammes off the overall effective mass. Some posh headshell wires would also make you feel better about supposedly "downgrading" the shell :)
I've still got a Tecchy headshell Dave - might try that. Strange thing is that on the 401, the Pioneer/Shure combo doesnt cause any cone-flap (in the SME it was pretty bad at times). The same arm/cart combo on the PL71 flaps a fair bit - not as bad as the SME/401 though.
Think it may be a siting issue - at present the Pioneer TT's sat on an Audiotech table top board with Michell spike 'cones' underneath, the whole thing sat on a heavy oak media unit thingy. I'm going to try 'squash-balling' the board (ie half a ball in each corner as I did with the Garrard) to see if adding a tiny bit of isolation to the proceedings helps vs the present state where it's coupled to the shelf via the spikes. The Pioneer has lightly sprung feet though so I'm not sure how successful this would be.
My ex-Spacey M3D...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7082.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7083.jpg
Presently using the PL71's mat on the Tecchy which has made a fairly worthwhile difference. :)
See, how come i couldn't take such nice pics of it! I notice the blue light isn't on :)
macvisual
03-12-2011, 15:00
Hey Gromit;
What do you think of your NVA pre & power? Love to hear your views please.
Are they British made?
I notice the blue light isn't on :)
Good reason for that Raj - my perfect pitch has been tested at A442 which means I always run a pitch adjustable turntable at approx +0.5% which is a lot more comfortable on my ear.
Peter - sadly I don't have my NVA pre-powers any more, I sold the lot when we were raising every last £ for our house purchase 18 months ago. As to how they sounded, I'd say that they were quite possibly the finest amps I've used in my home system - wonderfully neutral, extremely detailed, they just didn't appear ot get in the way of the music. No added sonic signature (ie they didn't sound fast nor slow - they let the music do that) and seemed to make sense of really sophisticated rhythms/musical patterns which had other amps falling over themselves. Good kit. :)
Presently using the PL71's mat on the Tecchy which has made a fairly worthwhile difference.
So how's it sounding 'as is', Richard, and what are your plans for it? :)
Marco.
Peter - sadly I don't have my NVA pre-powers any more, I sold the lot when we were raising every last £ for our house purchase 18 months ago. As to how they sounded, I'd say that they were quite possibly the finest amps I've used in my home system - wonderfully neutral, extremely detailed, they just didn't appear ot get in the way of the music. No added sonic signature (ie they didn't sound fast nor slow - they let the music do that) and seemed to make sense of really sophisticated rhythms/musical patterns which had other amps falling over themselves. Good kit. :)
No agenda, and please don't take it the wrong way, but I do have a hunch that you could do a lot better than an Incatech these days ;)
So how's it sounding 'as is', Richard, and what are your plans for it? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco - no massive plans at the moment, although I'm going for the psu first as I know from previous experience that gets one of the major building blocks in place. Then it'll be the bearing before the arm gets changed - in fact wil probably do a few other things before doing the arm. Saying that, I've a brand new PL71 arm which I got a couple of weeks ago (couldn't believe my luck on that one!) which might be put into use on the 1210.
How does it sound? At first it was awful - really. Splashy, coarse, muddled and just rather uninspiring. So, on went the Pioneer mat - a bit better - then I found some Sorbothane-like 'blobs' which I cannibalised out of a pair of old Royd speakers I had years ago. In the Royds, these act as dampers which are wedged between the magnet of the bass driver and the rear panel of the cabinet. Sliced them up into 1.5" discs and have put them under each corner of the Audiotech shelf I've got the Tecchy sat on. Tried them under the TT's feet but it's a bit wobbly for comfort.
Result?
Hard to understimate what this has done - it's tidied the sound up no end. It's gained focus, bass is no longer slow and overblown, and music has gained some direction. Not too dissimilar to doing the psu thing. If this, for now, saves me forking out for Isonoes (or something of their ilk) then it'll be a major bonus.
Am investigating the Vantage Audio bearing next - knowing that Richard's a wizard with DD's (and citing the fabulous job he did on Theo's L07D he clearly knows his stuff) I think it'd be interesting to get his slant on things.
Hey Richard - I thought you were cutting down on turntables? :D
Richard at Vantage does indeed has some interesting thoughts regarding the Technics: it's worth having a chat with him (if you haven't alrteady done so).
No agenda, and please don't take it the wrong way, but I do have a hunch that you could do a lot better than an Incatech these days ;)
That's intersting Dave - I've heard Richard's system and it sounds wonderful and lacks for nothing: it cetainly has synergy. What would you be recommending that would be substantially better?
No agenda, and please don't take it the wrong way, but I do have a hunch that you could do a lot better than an Incatech these days ;)
At what cost though? I'd be very surprised if there was an integrated ampplifer for less than £1.5k which would significantly better the Claymore, especially bearing in mind its superb phonostage, which itself gave a Dyna P75 a good enough run for its money to make it not worth me keeping.
The only real criticism I can level at the Claymore is that it does have quite a ripe bottom end (ooer), otherwise it's an unerringly musical, and muscular little amp. The 'downgrade' I had from my old Exposure XXI/Super XVIII's to the Claymore was nowhere near as large as I feared it would be.
Couple more, better quality pics...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7097_2.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7109.jpg
Rare Bird
04-12-2011, 21:47
I like your living room Rich very cosey looking
Thanks for your considered reply Richard. I stand corrected.. :)
I like your living room Rich very cosey looking
Thank you Andre - it's not a bad little place to listen to music in, and now that we have a separate 'family' room (where the tv/Wii/Blu-Ray etc lives) this room is now pretty much used exclusively for music. Another bonus is that the nearest neighbours are about 50 yds away means I can play it as loud as I like. :)
Just been having a play with Mrs Gromit's new camera (she'll get to use it eventually) ;)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00006_2.jpg
Nice pic, Richard, as usual... So how are you getting on now with the Techy - got a new mat sorted out yet? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco - the Tecchy's sounding very sweet. :)
Sadly the Isonoes didn't really work out, something really odd going on there but clearly in my rig they really weren't the silver bullet. Still, we move on and Richard at Vantage is sending me a modded bearing and his own 'Tecchy feet' to try out. Fun times! And let's face it, that's what matters. :)
Mat-wise, the PL71's mat is still in place but it's going soon as Jerry's having the Pioneer off me. Will be back to the Achro and out with the grease again....ooh eeer.... :D
jandl100
14-12-2011, 09:04
Sorry, I've not really been keeping up with this thread ... today I just dropped straight in at the last page! :)
OMG :wowzer: - a Shure M75ED2 .... I burst out laughing when I saw that in the photo. Not in a nasty way, I hasten to add, but that was my first ever cartridge - on a Pioneer PL12D. Ah, the memories. I was young then. :wheniwasaboy:
...I see from your siggie the Shure has got a fancy JICO stylus on it.
I've scanned back a few pages and I can't see any mention of it. It's a good'un, is it?
yeah, some of these cartridges take on a whole new decent lease of life in a well fettled turntable and with a modern diamond to replace the barely polished bit of coal originally fitted... My V15 II (which sort of devolved into the 75-ED I think) seems to sound better than the stock III, although the II deserves and sounds much better with a proper tip to replace the marginal elliptical it was originally fitted with..
yeah, some of these cartridges take on a whole new decent lease of life in a well fettled turntable and with a modern diamond to replace the barely polished bit of coal originally fitted...
Yup, it's a principle in audio called 'combining the best of old and new technologies, in order to obtain the best of both worlds' - and one which sensible and discerning people apply to their systems to maximum (beneficial) effect! ;)
Here's how it is.....
The quality of the generators, magnets (alnico is a case in point), etc, used on some vintage cartridges are often much better than what is used in some cartridges nowadays, even if the vintage ones have inferior styli. However, it is precisely because of the former that vintage designs often sound much more musically enjoyable and less artificially 'hi-fi' than their modern counterparts.
Therefore, once one fits a superior modern stylus to such cartridges, one releases their full sonic potential, which in the case of the G800, M3D, (proper Shure) SC35C, and apparently now the M75, is quite considerable. Thus one gets the best of both worlds, by marrying the best of old and new technologies - simples! :)
It ably demonstrates that those who perpetuate the myth that 'legacy' gear is 'obsolete', don't know their arse from their elbow, and shouldn't be allowed to wander the streets alone without supervision! :eyebrows:
Marco.
It ably demonstrates that those who perpetuate the myth that 'legacy' gear is 'obsolete', don't know their arse from their elbow.
Marco.
Eggzackly. :)
I remember someone on PFM doing a whole list of different needledrops of various cartridges - they inluded stuff like the M75ED, 10X5, Ortofon 2M Black, 1042 and a few others. Now, I'm never a big fan of doing this kind of stuff (it's very little like listening to a turntable/cart 'live') but it was a very interesting exercise nonetheless, and listening to a couple of the older cartridges in the list, it just reinforced my thoughts that some of these 'old nails' ain't that bad.
The Jico SAS tip is certainly a major upgrade - gone is that slightly soft, cuddly and laid back 75ED and in its place is a cartridge with real drive and clarity. Sounds awesome on solo piano in particular - loads of colour and body, and extremely clean on crescendi. I like it....a lot. :)
Has anyone here tried the Ed Saunders Shure stylii? I know there are a couple of satisfied users of the M75 stylus on Lenco Heaven.
http://www.edsaunders.com/shurestylus.htm
Couple more piccies...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00051_2.jpg
The tiny-thin cantilever on the Jico SAS stylus'd Shure...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00053_2.jpg
I'm really settling into the sound of this deck now - had a good couple of days with no distractions to sort out the feet/siting/mat/clamp/no clamp thing and have found a set-up I'm comfortable with.
The VA bearing's effect is quite subtle, and what works with one set of feet it doesn't with others, which was quite an eye-opener tbh and unexpected - ditto the clamp which worked great with the std bearing, and not with the VA one.
The deck now sounds best with the bearing in place with the VA feet, sat on my old Audiotech board (poached from the old AT table stored in the garage) which is sat upon 3 Michell spikes. As the deck is now playing music at last I'm going to leave it be for a while.
Reid Malenfant
21-12-2011, 22:49
Oooohhh, an M75 :) I think I sent Hamish one of those FOC earlier this year, nice to know they can be modified ;)
PS, excellent pictures!
Do you consider yourself to be a 'box-swapper' Gromit?
Do you consider yourself to be a 'box-swapper' Gromit?
Now and then I guess; I'm an amateur compared to Jerry though. :D
I'm often guilty of getting the set-up to sound just how I want it and then totally f*cking it up by swapping a component, and then the whole cycle starts again.
Hmm..that is what I wondered.
Oooohhh, an M75 :) I think I sent Hamish one of those FOC earlier this year, nice to know they can be modified ;)
PS, excellent pictures!
Thank you. :)
Yes, the M75 is turned into a somewhat different animal by the SAS tip - it easily pushed aside a DL110 (itself none-too-shabby performer for the money) and just works really nicely in my system.
No new boxes, just a new rack to plonk the existing ones on...the *Minister for Home Affairs hath decreed that the maple QS shelves don't match the rest of our stuff (which is true) so ended up with this Twattycarma thingy...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00132.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00141.jpg
Look neat enough - and sounds ok.
*She's not all bad - she let me buy a spangly new plasma telly last weekend. ;)
As you say Richard, very neat and tidy looking system, still loving the VA feet l see:)
As you say Richard, very neat and tidy looking system, still loving the VA feet l see:)
Thanks Andy - yup, the VA feet is certainly doing da business. Every couple of days I'll put the Iso's back on and each time it's 'yup...the VA feet are definitely better'. Good to find a happy balance in the system - and they clearly work well in conjunction with the VA bearing. :)
Only problem I've got now is to get rid of the excessive bass output in my room - it's become more noticeable since moving the room around to accommodate the new tv. It's not 'one note' boomy, just too much bass full stop. Even plugging the Royd's ports doesn't really cure the issue much (they're only tiny anyway). I'm fairly convinced the amp is a culprit here - the Claymore's a serious bass monster (it has loads of clout here) and this has perhaps just tipped the balance over the edge.
On orchestral/simple acoustic it's still fabulous, just anything with a lot of bass ie rock/funk/electronic/double bass etc it's a bit over-powering. Would like to try a different amp perhaps (Brio R?) but where to get hold of one to borrow isn't going to be easy as we're a bit out in the hifi sticks here (apart from Theo who's just up the road).
you are welcome Richard, l do like simple systems and monitor speakers as you can probably tell:)
Got this little rig at home on trial for a few days...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00185.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00186.jpg
Had the day off work today (got a throat infection so taking lungfuls of air and blowing down a Clarinet wasn't my idea of fun!) so had plenty of chance to have a good first listen to this M2Tech set up. I do try - honest(!) - not to gush about bits of kit but from the first couple of minutes' listening I felt it was going to be a bit special, and as a result I've sat for nigh on 5 hours today just listening to music. Something I've not done for a long, long time.
I'll pop a review into another part of the forum when I get time. :)
Richard, are those Something Solid speaker stands? They look so like the ones we used to sell at Listen Inn way back when..
Richard, are those Something Solid speaker stands? They look so like the ones we used to sell at Listen Inn way back when..
Well spotted Dave. :)
Got these from Peter at Deco (was Noteworthy) Audio after he'd recommended I try them. They provide a slightly different 'sound' from the Royds when compared to having them on the Kan II stands I was using before and that 'different' is most definitely 'better'.
Such a simple, but undeniably effective bit of kit - and no way heavy in the £ dept too. :)
Give my very best to the Deco boys should you speak to them again. We used to have regular weekly deliveries from Mark Orr back then and I sold a lot of these stands. Mark used to do a bagged sand-ballast for them too - can't remember if they were extra.. The "string-driven" balsa-shelved racks he does aren't the prettiest, but my Gawd they perform well, and this to a stand-sceptic like me as well..
Hey, that DVD player/transport looks familiar too. Mine's the 444 version... :D
jandl100
26-01-2012, 20:07
Ooo - the noo Young gear. I had the older Young DAC and much enjoyed my time with it. :)
Hey - I've just seen this ....
Do you consider yourself to be a 'box-swapper' Gromit?
Now and then I guess; I'm an amateur compared to Jerry though. :D
I'm often guilty of getting the set-up to sound just how I want it and then totally f*cking it up by swapping a component, and then the whole cycle starts again.
That's not box-swapping - that's fekkin' it up good and proper! :doh: :lol:
Box swapping is about trying different things cos you're curious as to what they sound like in your system, and generally havin' a bloody good time doing it! :thumbsup:
Will do Dave - don't pop into Aylesbury so much these days as we're now up in Lincs but am gigging in London in a couple of weeks so will pop in and see Peter on the way home hopefully.
Most definitely one of the good guys. :)
Yup - the Pioneer makes a pretty damn good transport, only kept it because when it was retired from DVD duties (and it was going to get given away) someone 'in the know' told me to keep it. Glad I did. :)
macvisual
26-01-2012, 20:46
Need advice from you'se vinyl guru's about a basic moving magnet cartridge for my newly acquired Dual 504 turntable please?
I've an elderly Linn K5 cart which plays ok it seems, but the needle/cantilever seems not straight, strange....
Anyone have a spare cheap'ish mm cartridge lying about collecting dust they might want to part with maybe? Say under £50.
Haven't I been here on another thread?
AT120E or 440MLa. Shure M97XE - any ED or V15 Shure - SAS tipped too ;), Stanton 681EEE, ADC XLM mk2 onwards, Sonus Gold Blue (on ebay for £85 or so, but watch the loading as it may need less than 47K to tame an ultra-sonic peak) in fact any medium to highish compliance cartridge apart from the wild ones like the Empire 1000ZE/X, ADC25/XLM mk1 and relatives)
Peter - I'm (shameless plug sorry!) selling my SAS-tipped Shure M75 which might suit the Dual quite nicely, especially as the 504 wears a fairly low mass arm. :)
A new addition...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00198.jpg
Bought James' (Jagdesign) 103 Pro which arrived today. :)
Jury's out at the moment - the balance is good, all the usual 103 stuff is present and correct (ballsy, full-fat presentation with lots of colour) but I think I've been spoilt hearing a 103 in a more suitable arm than the Technics' standard one. On really heavy going you can 'hear' the arm breaking up - this is something I experienced when swapping a previous 103 between my older 1210 and the PL71. Thing is, I can't afford to change the arm on the 1210 - much as it would be nice to - so the Pro may not last all that long.
Still, we'll give it a few days and re-consider the situation. :)
A new addition...well a pair of them...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00229.jpg
:)
I've just noticed something, which may or may not have a bearing on the bass issues.. The rack is almost in a corner.
If you stick your head on the general vicinity of the deck when it's playing, is there an increase in bass there?
I've just noticed something, which may or may not have a bearing on the bass issues.. The rack is almost in a corner.
If you stick your head on the general vicinity of the deck when it's playing, is there an increase in bass there?
Could do, Dave although with the Tecchy on top of its previous shelf it was even further into the corner. Saying that, the older shelf was a lower (<24" high) long and heavy oak unit which filled the corner of the room much better.
Saying that, there's a lot of bass/boom from digital sources too - no less than with the TT. The Altos are quite funky though and they don't half go loud on not a lot of juice! :)
My (big) new baby...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7333.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7334.jpg
Took a gamble with this - a good mate of mine was thinking of selling his TA-F3ES (he owns a TA-F777ES and the 3 was used as in a system in his study) and had been harping on about how good the ES amps were - and amongst them there were some real gems. He wanted less than 100 quid for his '3ES but the fact that it runs a mosfet stage put me off - if it went pop then I could be up le creeque de poo.
So, did a bit of trawling the www, and asking some long time ES fans for info I got this 670ES at the weekend, plus a 570ES Tuner as part of the deal.
I've not been going too ga-ga over the amp to start with, and have just let it settle in for a few days whilst I get used to its sound. Will put a more lengthy report into the review section as and when. It'll be providing my Royds (and Dean Altos) with some good clean Japanese watts at the Scalford show. :)
The Grand Wazoo
28-02-2012, 23:36
It looks to be in good nick Richard.
Wassunderdaflap?
............and there'll be none of that, thank you Marco & all you other Three Words Daily schoolboys!
It looks to be in good nick Richard.
Wassunderdaflap?
............and there'll be none of that, thank you Marco & all you other Three Words Daily schoolboys!
It's pretty much mint Chris - just the tiniest scratch about 1" long on the front which I could only see once Mark (the guy selling) pointed it out to me.
The tuner looks like new - really ought to sort myself a decent FM aerial for that as have nothing at the moment.
Under the flap are tone controls (yes they work well too!) although I just use source direct, and switching for MM/MC etc, also a mono button which is all too rare these days. :)
The Grand Wazoo
29-02-2012, 07:59
Fab!
Any chance of a wee squint at a piccie or two of the tuner?
Fab!
Any chance of a wee squint at a piccie or two of the tuner?
Ok doke - will get le camera out this avo. :)
The Grand Wazoo
29-02-2012, 08:01
Excellent, thanks.
istari_knight
02-03-2012, 17:39
Nice to see the old ES amps getting some exposure, fantastic engineering & attention to detail. You would be forgiven for thinking they were German if you removed the Sony badge.
How are you getting along with it after a few days settling it ?
PS. I did reply in the ES thread over on pfm but I guess you haven't been on there. I have a PDF service manual for the 670ES if you want it just pm me your email - Hopefully you shouldn't ever need it but its nice to have!
Hi James - sorry missed your post on PFM, will pop over and have a lookt at it. :)
Don't worry re the pdf - it's one of the first thing I did when scouring the www for info on the amp. As to how I'm getting on with it? I've been very pleasantly surprised at how good it is - it just doesn't add anything, it's just so transparent. I did seem to have a channel balance problem - slight bias to the left so did all the usual checks.
Ended up running the whole system L to R ie every connection from the inputs to speaker outlets is running opposite way round - it ends up correct at the speakers which is the main thing. Result is the sound has centred. Lord knows why - doesn't make sense at all - but the amp's left and right sides are doing the job of their opposite channel. May be psychological...may be an acoustic/phase anomoly in my room.
The amp really is a cracker though - a fair bit faster than the Claymore and in one swoop my bass issues have gone. I knew it was the amp...I should trust my ears a bit more often. :D The Claymore does seem to like a less lively room, and taking it to a mate's house it worked beautifully. Will still miss it, but more out of a sense of nostalgia from my Flat-Earth 80's days. :)
The Sony has a cooler, more simple presentation than the Claymore too but once let off the leash it really hits hard and latches onto rhythms as though its very existence depended on it - it's very funky! Seems to like being driven too - doesn't sound as inspiring at lower volumes, a bit flat even. I'm certainly very happy with it, and for what it cost I have no complaints - it may even surprise one or 2 people at Scalford on Sunday. Will hopefully have my PS-6750 turntable up and running as well.
istari_knight
07-03-2012, 17:38
That pretty much sums up my experience with it aswell... Although I've never compared it to or even owned a Claymore it has seen off a few respected amps which often command triple the price of the Sony.
Not sure what to say about those channel issues, very odd! :scratch:
Just upgraded my CDP-970 to a CDP-X33ES & they make a superb pair. Problem is I need a new rack as my flimsy Ikea "corras" isnt made for 15kg amps & 10kg cd players!
Rich - you change your system almost as quickly as i do!! :D
I've just changed everything again right down to every cable, stand and plug!
A sad day today at Gromit Towers - the flag is flying at half mast and I'm wearing my black arm band. My Royds are moving on to pastures new - I've had nearly 7 very happy years with these little beauties but I need the cash. This is because I'm giving up my playing job (well the full time bit - I'll still be doing some freelance stuff hopefully) at the end of the year and going into teaching Clarinet and Piano and we need a new piano to do so. They don't come cheap so some stuff has had to go.
Still, a real piano will always sound better than one played through any speaker.
julesd68
22-03-2012, 14:16
Wow - a sad day indeed - I thought you would rather chop off your hands than lose the Merlins! :eek:
Hope you find something nice to replace them with. I have only found one small speaker that I preferred to the Merlins - my old Chario Syntars. The Merlins had a more realistic quality with vocals, but the Syntars had the edge on them with a bigger soundstage and bass.
Well it ain't hifi but it's still a music centre...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00559.jpg
Nice to know that selling the Royds (amongst other bits) helped pay for this. :)
A real Black Beauty :) Congratulations - wish you well to play it.
Are you returning to vinyl at some future point? Or has the lure of computer audio taken over?
realysm42
03-04-2012, 16:38
That Piano is beautiful.
So erm, would putting it on spikes make it sound any better? It is it's own speaker after all :eek:
Thanks chaps - it's a Yamaha U3 which is quite a beast, in fact the largest upright Yamaha make. Generates some amazing volume in our living room (good job our neighbours are all >30yds away!). We're having a music room built at the back of the house later this summer so it'll have its own dedicated space before long.
Theo - turntable-wise I recently got hold of a Sony PS-6750 but it's suffering a hum issue. I took it to Scalford but didn't play more than a few tracks on it. Sonically though it beat the modded 1210 into next week - seriously - and the 2 other guys in the room at the time felt exactly the same about it. I'd say there's every chance it's better than the PL-71. By all accounts Sony lost money on every one of these they made (along with its bigger brother the PS-8750) and they're extremely rare in the UK. Here's hoping it can be fixed.
RobbieGong
04-04-2012, 21:58
Feck me !! It beat the modded Techie into next week ? Couldn't have been Marco or Martins thats for sure :lol: I've always had a soft spot for it's bigger brother the 8750, which as you know is meant to be a very very decent deck indeed (and looks it too). Gorgeous piano by the way. If I was financially flush and could have a very big house I would have one just for looks alone as well as a harp - maybe one day eh ! :)
Theo - turntable-wise I recently got hold of a Sony PS-6750 but it's suffering a hum issue. I took it to Scalford but didn't play more than a few tracks on it. Sonically though it beat the modded 1210 into next week - seriously - and the 2 other guys in the room at the time felt exactly the same about it. I'd say there's every chance it's better than the PL-71. By all accounts Sony lost money on every one of these they made (along with its bigger brother the PS-8750) and they're extremely rare in the UK. Here's hoping it can be fixed.
It might be worth giving Richard at Vantage a call - he's planning on coming up our way in the next couple of weeks. I've got a call out for him. it might be something he can fix in-situ?
Feck me !! It beat the modded Techie into next week ? Couldn't have been Marco or Martins thats for sure :lol: I've always had a soft spot for it's bigger brother the 8750, which as you know is meant to be a very very decent deck indeed (and looks it too). Gorgeous piano by the way. If I was financially flush and could have a very big house I would have one just for looks alone as well as a harp - maybe one day eh ! :)
Lol! Far too many variables to even begin to properly analyse that observation....
I don't doubt that the Sony was superior, as I trust Richard's ears, however I suspect that the reason may have been down to (IMO) the superior tonearm on the Sony, which is lightweight and designed to optimise high-compliance cartridges, such as Richard's Shure :)
The stock Techy arm prefers lower compliance cartridges. However, it could be down to many other things too, such as the platter. The one on the Sony does look rather more 'substantial'!
Nice piano indeed, Richard - great for an evening of 'Chas and Dave'! :D ;)
Marco.
You're right Marco - way too many 'differences' in each set-up. Still, it sounds bloody good (this was using the 2M Black btw) and once I've got to the bottom of this hum issue - which does seem to be arm-related - it'll be a seriously nice record player.
Oh...just seen your avatar. :lol:
Chas'n'Dave? Wash yer malf aht ;)
Theo - ooh that's very handy to know Richard'll be heading your way soon. Will give him a bell. :)
Couple of rushed pics...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00566.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00564.jpg
The first, and foremost observation that we found with the Sony vs the 1210 was how much 'bounce' it gave to the sound. Bass (which ain't exactly lacking on the Tecchy) just rips along on the Sony, lacking any inertia, giving music masses of energy and rhythmic snap - the push/pull of syncopations, the relationship between melody and counterpoint just sounds so full of life. Very addictive, and very realistic. Just got the supplied M95ED in place at the moment which isn't brilliant but I need to get hold of a better headshell before fitting the 2M Black.
Bottom line is this is yet another turntable which should've buried the LP12 back in the 70's but was never allowed to.
Very nice looking piano and Turntable Richard!:)
A different angle on things...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00582.jpg
RobbieGong
05-04-2012, 17:00
Hi Richard - Not surprised the 6750 sounds good, the 6750 / 8750 do look like they were built to be proper 'audiophile' decks. I've promised myself a 8750 one day as a second deck with my 1210 which is an absolute keeper. Wait til you here your 6750 with the 2M Black on board. By the way, how easily is vta adjusted on the Sony's ? as vta/sra is vital with the Black. :)
Hi Robert - we had the Black playing in the Sony at Scalford but because of the hum issue with the deck only managed to play 3 or 4 tracks. Even with the thing only roughly set up (ie only vtf/vta were set) it was clearly obvious the Sony is a wee bit special.
One thing which made me smile is the platter as it slows - it's not particularly heavy (not that much more than the 1210's) but as it has no electronic brake, it just spins down under its own momentum. Takes ages to stop, and a good sign as to the lack of friction and quality of the main bearing - the housing in which it sits is engineered on a large scale and no doubt a sign of the good things within.
The deck itself is in pretty good condition - as is often the case with these old things the lid's not in its first flush of youth with cracks at the front and back. Still, its solid enough and has the 'anti-static grid' in the top. Basically what looks like a heated rear window over the path where the tonearm would travel across the record. Don't expect it does much but it's a nice touch.
All I need for it now is a decent headshell - probably not the Sumiko as I'd try to keep mass relatively low but would need adjustable azimuth as I found the 2M Black is extremely sensitive to getting it bang-on. The arm's not earthing quite right either, touch the bearing housing and there's a rise in the faint buzzing but I'll hopefully be able to get Richard to have a quick look at it when he's in the area soon. As to adjusting vta you'll see in the above picture a bit of sticky tape on the side of the plinth - under this is a small 'key' (basically a tiny Allen key) which is inserted into the arm pillar, which then can be released for height adjustment. The key sits in its own small hole in the plinth but was taped down for transportation.
All in all another previously (for me) undiscovered gem. :)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00568.jpg
RobbieGong
05-04-2012, 20:08
Nice one Richard - You'll absolutely love the black when it's bang on, trust me. I've said loads of times how sensitive this superb cart is to vta/sra which you've also found along with a few of the other guys - It's all worth it though, hence I love the on da fly vta adjust of the Techie because you can literally do it whilst spinning a tune, turning ever ever so slowly whilst listening and eventually, wow !, you here that she's there - beautiful. :)
Nice piano indeed, Richard - great for an evening of 'Chas and Dave'! :D ;)
Marco.
Wiv your incessant talkin' your becomin' a pest.... Rabbit, rabbit, rabbitrabbitrabbit....... :)
:)Richard, on a slightly different note, l see the SONY has a detachable IEC, have you experimented with different power cords?
:)Richard, on a slightly different note, l see the SONY has a detachable IEC, have you experimented with different power cords?
Hi Andy - not realy experimented as such, but am using a MCRU cable (the 30 quid one) at the moment. Not sure it's ideal though as the cable's quite stiff, maybe something more flexible would be better for using with a turntable, less likely to affect any flexibility in the turntable's feet for example.
Audioman
06-04-2012, 12:01
Richard. Didn't get a good look at the Sony at the show but remember you saying how much better than the Technics it is. From the photos I am not surprised. It is far more substantial. The platter looks massive and the arm appears to be a quality job. I'm sure if you could get the power supply off board this could be a winner. The hum sounds like just a bad earth connection between arm and deck.
Paul.
Richard. Didn't get a good look at the Sony at the show but remember you saying how much better than the Technics it is. From the photos I am not surprised. It is far more substantial. The platter looks massive and the arm appears to be a quality job. I'm sure if you could get the power supply off board this could be a winner. The hum sounds like just a bad earth connection between arm and deck.
Paul.
Hi Paul - yup, I too amm 99.9% sure the buzz is down to a failure (or intermittent of) the arm's earthing paths. Without a cartridge/headshell fitted there is no hum at all - just the faint 'wooosh' from the phonostage noise when the wick's turned up.
Insert the headshell and it buzzes - quite faintly most of the time - but touch the bearing housing on the arm and the buzz gets a lot louder. Touch the pair of bearing screws on either side and it's louder still. Take a short piece of wire, touch one end to the bearing housing, the other one touching the outside of one of the RCA leads' plugs (for an earth) and the buzz virtually disappears, even when touching the bearing housing again with my hand.
Fortunately the arm's fitting is identical to that on a PL71 ie 5 wires (2 pairs for signal, one single wire for arm earth) coming from the arm base, going to a tag board then onto the RCA outs via a pair of screened signal cables. Will get J7 to re-wire the arm and make sure it's earthed properly; I'm thinking the arm's earth from the headshell end is duffed. Whatever it is, Johnnie will be able to fix it. :)
Got the 2M Black fitted now and Jeez this thing's good!! :)
RobbieGong
06-04-2012, 13:55
Hi Paul - yup, I too amm 99.9% sure the buzz is down to a failure (or intermittent of) the arm's earthing paths. Without a cartridge/headshell fitted there is no hum at all - just the faint 'wooosh' from the phonostage noise when the wick's turned up.
Insert the headshell and it buzzes - quite faintly most of the time - but touch the bearing housing on the arm and the buzz gets a lot louder. Touch the pair of bearing screws on either side and it's louder still. Take a short piece of wire, touch one end to the bearing housing, the other one touching the outside of one of the RCA leads' plugs (for an earth) and the buzz virtually disappears, even when touching the bearing housing again with my hand.
Fortunately the arm's fitting is identical to that on a PL71 ie 5 wires (2 pairs for signal, one single wire for arm earth) coming from the arm base, going to a tag board then onto the RCA outs via a pair of screened signal cables. Will get J7 to re-wire the arm and make sure it's earthed properly; I'm thinking the arm's earth from the headshell end is duffed. Whatever it is, Johnnie will be able to fix it. :)
Got the 2M Black fitted now and Jeez this thing's good!! :)
:) Aint it just !! :D
:) Aint it just !! :D
Absolutely - even though it sounded very good at Scalford, despite being set in the headshell for the 1210, I've spent 15 mins or so lining it up spot-on this afternoon and it's now singing its little heart out. Soundstage (which is usually way down my list of priorities tbh) is just massive, slightly leaner in the bass perhaps than the 1210 but oh so fast...it grooves like a b*stard this one. :)
Absolutely - even though it sounded very good at Scalford, despite being set in the headshell for the 1210, I've spent 15 mins or so lining it up spot-on this afternoon and it's now singing its little heart out. Soundstage (which is usually way down my list of priorities tbh) is just massive, slightly leaner in the bass perhaps than the 1210 but oh so fast...it grooves like a b*stard this one. :)
Hi Richard,
the PS-6750 T/T is a real beauty, don't you think ;). I hope that you'll sort out the problems with yours quickly, so that you can enjoy it, just like I enjoy mine :D.
What do you think of the 2M Black cartridge in combination with the PS-6750? I have the Denon DL-103R at the moment, and I love it (with some extra weight on the original Sony SH-150H headshell, and additional counter-weight).
I'm waiting right now for the aluminium body for the DL-103R and for the Nagaoka magnesium headshell which is heavier than Sony's HS, so I'll try that combination really soon.
If you are interested, you can find pictures of my T/T and my system(s) in this thread:http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18333
Enjoy and best regards,
Danijel
Some more 'Jap Crap' has just arrived courtesy of an X303ES CD player...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01238.jpg
I just love this Sony ES stuff - to think that I'd poo-poo'd anything that was designed and built east of Lowestoft for years and years (especially amplifiers) and only really had respect for Aiwa & Nakamichi cassette decks...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01232.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01230.jpg
hoopsontoast
07-11-2012, 07:44
Looking good! Was tempted by another 770ES or 808ES but decided to go down another route!
The Sony ES stuff really is still a bargain in the UK, not so much over in Germany.
The Sony ES stuff really is still a bargain in the UK, not so much over in Germany.
Certainly seems that way Rob - a few ES items have gone for good money on eBay recently, notably 'our' 670ES, but there are still some absolute crackers available for very little money. For the sonics on offer, they do represent serious bargains. Can't believe I got my amp, the matching 570ES tuner, and now the 303ES CD player for about 200 quid.
Now, if I could only find a PS-8750 turntable I'd be one very happy chap. :)
hoopsontoast
07-11-2012, 14:43
Bargain!
I doubt many PS 8750's were sold in the UK, sadly. T'was one heck of a nice turntable, compared favourably with an Lp12/Grace 707 back then and I'd love to hear one today with modern cartridges and supports....
I doubt many PS 8750's were sold in the UK, sadly. T'was one heck of a nice turntable, compared favourably with an Lp12/Grace 707 back then and I'd love to hear one today with modern cartridges and supports....
Indeed Dave - I've only ever seen one for sale in the UK, and it sold for something itro £450 if I remember correctly. If I hadn't needed the cash I'd still have my PS-6750 (along with the Royds) which was a gorgeous thing. I'd got my 1210 singing quite nicely, just where I wanted it in fact - to have really given it a leap in performance would've meant serious outlay - but the Sony was demonstrably superior. An outcome attested to by the 3 chaps in my room at Scalford.
Come the spring - when I'll be a lot more flush - I'm hoping to go TT shopping and will be seeking out something similar, possibly even going to the lengths of importing a big Pioneer from Japan if it comes to it.
Talking of Sonys though - any views/experience of the PS-X7? It certainly borrows quite heavily from the 6/8750 in terms of motor unit but is a full auto. I was <this> close to going for a very nice one on eBay a couple of weeks ago but couldn't quite press the BiN button. TVK certainly sings its praises.
hoopsontoast
22-11-2012, 08:12
Richard, how you getting on with the Kolts, managed to plug them in yet? :)
Hi Richard,
I'd got my 1210 singing quite nicely, just where I wanted it in fact - to have really given it a leap in performance would've meant serious outlay - but the Sony was demonstrably superior. An outcome attested to by the 3 chaps in my room at Scalford.
I think we've been here before, and I don't doubt what you heard: I'd have probably heard the same thing myself! :)
However, in the interests of balance, and also for the benefit of those reading, who are not so experienced in these matters, and who may jump to the wrong conclusions after reading what you've written, I think it's important that we put your observations into a proper (and indeed, fair) context.
The PS-8750 would've been built at the time as a 'no compromise' audiophile design, and in its day, correct me if I'm wrong, was also rather more expensive than an SL-1200/1210. Therefore, much like the Pioneer PL-71, it already had the foundation ('DNA'), call it what you will, to be a better turntable than the Technics. There is only one part of an SL-1200/1210 which could be considered as a 'no compromise' design, or at least extremely high quality, given the engineering prowess of the turntable overall, and that's the motor unit. Everything else supplied as standard on an SL-1200/1210 was 'built to a price', although I'd argue that the plinth is also of high quality and very well thought out.
Therefore, I'm not surprised that even your (partially) modified Technics was still outclassed by the Sony. I can't remember also if the same cartridge was used on both T/Ts, or whether there were any other variables, liable to have given the Sony a slight advantage, when the comparison took place? I seem to remember that there was something... Anyway, as the Sony was fundamentally better engineered than the Techy that you had, the only way the playing field would've been levelled (or more likely the Technics gaining a possible advantage) would've been if your Techy had been fitted with a higher quality bearing (Mike New) and a better platter (either Mike New or Funk Firm).
It's been said time and time again, and quite correctly, that both those items are fundamental in allowing the Technics to 'grow up' and become a genuine high-end turntable. If you look at the Sony, it's quite obvious that it has a better platter than the stock Technics one, and I'd bet if you looked under the hood, the bearing (and also that used on the Pioneer PL-71) would have been engineered to a higher standard than that found on a stock SL-1200 or 1210. Therefore, in my opinion, it was for those two reasons, mainly, why the Sony outperformed your Technics.
I stand by my view, however, and it's backed up by considerable experience, that when you take the Techy 'all the way' (as Martin and I, and others have done), albeit granted at some cost, then it leaves behind most other direct-drive T/Ts (certainly the ones I've heard), and I include the SP10 (in stock form) in that, and certainly a Pioneer PL-71. The only direct-drive turntable I've heard which rivals my modded Techy, and that arguably outperforms it, is the Kenwood L-07D.
On that score, I need to visit my friend again, who owns one of the latter, and do the comparison, now that my Techy has been taken to the highest level of modification possible (save re-capping the PCB, the sonic benefits of which are yet unknown). It's all about gaining the necessary knowledge through the practical experience of listening; one cannot be qualified to judge such matters otherwise, and I love testing my T/T against the best! :exactly:
As I've said before too, but it's worth reiterating, the ONLY reason that the Techy is chosen for modification ahead of other very well engineered direct-drive T/Ts of the day, is because much more of them were made. Therefore, it was a case of availability, and also the fact that up until recently you could obtain new ones, rather than taking the chance of buying a 30+ year old Jap D/D T/T, where any manner of things could go wrong, or perhaps were already wrong. Remember that not everyone is comfortable messing about with electronics or doing DIY....
Factor in the above and also that there is now a significant infrastructure in place for modifying an SL-1200 or 1210, to the hilt, and it becomes a no-brainer why it's Techies people are mostly buying, and not PL-71s or any other quality Japanese D/D turntable from the 70s. Therefore, contrary to what some may think (and you know who you are), there is no 'fanboyism' here, merely inevitable practicality!
Returning to the Sony and your intention of importing an 'uber' Jap T/T (possibly a Pioneer Exclusive P3a, if that's what you're hinting at?) I would urge you to do so, as I think that it would be a phenomenal turntable, most certainly one that I'd love to hear for myself, and above all, give us all something interesting and new to talk about, instead of 'chuntering on' about our beloved Techies!! My advice, just DO IT, brovva :cool: :respect:
Marco.
Ignore the shite music, and simply admire the audiophile porn:
nbtkr82c0xM
:wowzer: :wowzer:
Marco.
Hi Rob - yes, the tiny little Kolts (they're no bigger than the Control Ones!) were hooked up late yesterday evening sound really fine. They certainly need a fair bit more juice than my other speakers, but on most material sound excellent - acoustic piano especially. Smooth, with surprisingly accomplished bass for such a tiny enclosure, and what is also surprising (given that litte box) is that they like a bit of room around them. Putting them near to the back wall makes them a tad muddy in my room. Thanks again for the lend of them. :)
Hi Marco - all fair points. :)
Actually my Sony was a 6750 - the 8750 is the one I'd really like to own which is by all accounts (and those in the know) the one to have. It's a stunning bit of kit. That platter is actually quite deceiving on the 6750 - although it's large, it doesn't weigh much (the Technics platter is probably slightly heavier believe it or not!) but I think where the Sony scores is its motor which I'm sure would start a car, so much torque does it have. Good thing about the Sony (having chatted to Richard at Vantage about them a while back) is that they're totally serviceable - good to know, and whilst a repair may not be 'cheap' in real terms, if it means keeping a deck like this working correctly it's money well spent.
By all accounts the PS-4750 is a goodie too - same motor/control system/plinth material as the 6750 but with a simpler tonearm.
At Scalford both my decks had the same cartridge (2M Black) and used on the same shelf.
As to a big Pioneer - I'm very slightly cold on this at the moment. The deck I'd be after is a PL50LII (pretty much a scaled-down P3a) but I have it on good authority that these do contain a lot of completely unobtainable parts which makes them a risky purchase.
Must dash...work to do!
hoopsontoast
22-11-2012, 13:03
Hi Rob - yes, the tiny little Kolts (they're no bigger than the Control Ones!) were hooked up late yesterday evening sound really fine. They certainly need a fair bit more juice than my other speakers, but on most material sound excellent - acoustic piano especially. Smooth, with surprisingly accomplished bass for such a tiny enclosure, and what is also surprising (given that litte box) is that they like a bit of room around them. Putting them near to the back wall makes them a tad muddy in my room. Thanks again for the lend of them. :)
Richard, glad they will be getting some use :)
They seem to respond to decent heavy stands as well, although never tried them with lightweight/open frame stands.
dantheman91
22-11-2012, 13:26
Richard, glad they will be getting some use :)
They seem to respond to decent heavy stands as well, although never tried them with lightweight/open frame stands.
You have sold the kolts then :(
You have sold the kolts then :(
Rob's just very kindly lending them to me - I did try to get him to sell them though. ;)
dantheman91
22-11-2012, 13:37
Hey
Oh fair enough i have a pair of keesonic Kubs. Their very good.
I did'nt get on with the control 1's for some reason :scratch:
Actually my Sony was a 6750 - the 8750 is the one I'd really like to own which is by all accounts (and those in the know) the one to have.
Ah, thanks for the clarification - still a 'proper' audiophile T/T then, by all accounts :)
That platter is actually quite deceiving on the 6750 - although it's large, it doesn't weigh much (the Technics platter is probably slightly heavier believe it or not!)
It's not the weight of the platter that's necessary important, but rather how resonant it is, and crucially, how sonically synergistic its partnership is with the T/T's drive system and motor. EMT have for years been making some of the best direct-drive turntables in the world, using rather 'flimsy' platters, in conjunction with brutal motors (torque wise), and it's a combination that works rather well!
A similar thing could be happening with the Sony (either of those under discussion), in that the effectiveness of the platter/motor relationship is superior to that of the Technics, in its stock form; indeed I suspect that this is the case.
It's also worth noting that 'silly' amounts of torque is not necessarily, sonically, a good thing. Much depends on how it is used (and indeed addressed) in the overall design of the T/T, and on that issue there are various schools of thought. For example, the Brinkmann Oasis (details here: http://www.brinkmann-audio.de/main.php?prod=oasis&lang=en), a rather nice looking D/D turntable, which I heard and compared directly with my Techy, in the same system (and where the Brinkmann lost :eek:), eschews the principle of having a high-torque motor and a light(ish) platter, and goes the opposite way with a very heavy platter and a low-torque motor.
Furthermore, the SP10 has rather more torque than my SL-1210, but when the latter has been judiciously modified, to the level I've taken it to, the extra torque of the former did not result in it outperforming my own turntable. Therefore, it's risky to think that more torque automatically equates to a better sound. What matters most is how well the respective design principles of the T/Ts in question have been implemented by their manufacturers. Ultimately, it's all about synergy!
At Scalford both my decks had the same cartridge (2M Black) and used on the same shelf.
That's fine, and again thanks for the clarification.
As to a big Pioneer - I'm very slightly cold on this at the moment. The deck I'd be after is a PL50LII (pretty much a scaled-down P3a) but I have it on good authority that these do contain a lot of completely unobtainable parts which makes them a risky purchase.
Think very carefully about it then, as the last thing you'd want to be left with is an expensive ornament... That's primarily the reason why I've never done a similar thing myself. I'd die for one of these (a Denon DN-308 broadcast T/T, as used by the NHK in Japan):
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2417/p1060900.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/p1060900.jpg/)
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4158/p1060927.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/p1060927.jpg/)
VU meters on a turntable, whoop, whoop!! :eek:
However, even if I could find one at a price I'd be willing to pay, the risk would be too great, should anything irreplaceable go pop.
*That* is precisely why I've gone down the route I have with the Techy. Not only does it sound stunning, but every bit on it was bought from new and can be repaired or replaced by qualified personnel.
What price can you put on having not only continuous peace of mind, in terms of reliability, but in owning a unique and superb sounding turntable, which delivers total musical satisfaction, daily? It's ultimately what makes modifying the Techy a safe (and musically rewarding choice) for many vinyl music lovers :cool
Marco.
Beobloke
22-11-2012, 14:24
Indeed Dave - I've only ever seen one for sale in the UK, and it sold for something itro £450 if I remember correctly.
There was a PS-8750 under a table at one of the Tonbridge Audiojumbles last year for £130. I know because I didn't buy it.....
:doh:
There was a PS-8750 under a table at one of the Tonbridge Audiojumbles last year for £130. I know because I didn't buy it.....
:doh:
:doh: indeed. :(
hoopsontoast
22-11-2012, 14:44
Rob's just very kindly lending them to me - I did try to get him to sell them though. ;)
Yeah, certainly wont be selling the Kolts (again :doh:) but have offered them to Richard on long term loan as they were sitting un-used in my spare room :)
I'd have to have one of these...
http://omiyadenka.co.jp/blog/hardoff/WindowsLiveWriter/SONYPSX9_B252/DSC00027.jpg
By all accounts Sony lost money on every one built.
The Black Adder
22-11-2012, 14:56
lol... just like the PS3... I love it when the designers get their own way over the suits.
lol... just like the PS3... I love it when the designers get their own way over the suits.
Indeed - the complete function-over-form of the X9 appeals hugely to my life-long fascination with engineering (not that I'm an engineer - my job is the polar opposite). The beauty is in in the engineering itself. :)
Indeed, 'cos aesthetically, it ain't that pretty! ;)
Marco.
Beobloke
22-11-2012, 16:39
I don't think it's all that bad, personally. Certainly I'd happily take one off the hands of some poor soul who finds it too ugly for them...
Lol, I think it comes under the banner of 'functional elegance' :)
Actually, it looks somewhat EMT-like, but lacks the former's old-school 'industrial chic'...
Marco.
Rob's little Kolts in situ, sounding rather sweet too. :)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01294.jpg
They remind me very much of my old ProAc Super Tablettes in many ways - not a huge amount of heft but quite lovely on stuff like acoustic piano and vocals. Doing a bit of trawling the www it now appears they share the same SEAS driver as the ProAcs. No surprise then really. :)
hoopsontoast
23-11-2012, 10:23
Yup, same Seas 11F-GX mid bass as the Mk1 Tablette :)
Rob's little Kolts in situ, sounding rather sweet too. :)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01294.jpg
They remind me very much of my old ProAc Super Tablettes in many ways - not a huge amount of heft but quite lovely on stuff like acoustic piano and vocals. Doing a bit of trawling the www it now appears they share the same SEAS driver as the ProAcs. No surprise then really. :)
Very cosy looking room there Richard, perfect for losing a few hours!:)
Very cosy looking room there Richard, perfect for losing a few hours!:)
Thanks Andy. :)
It's worked out quite well really, as we have a large family room adjoining the kitchen/dining room which is where we spend 90% of our time. The living room above is more of a music room where the the 'big' tv also lives. Downside with the room though is that it's 22' by 11' so acoustically poor - could do with being 2' or so wider. We've just had a dedicated music room built though (it's behind where I'm standing taking the photo) which is where the piano will go eventually. :)
Only problem at the moment is that the screed/plaster is taking an age to dry due to the cold & damp weather. :(
The Black Adder
23-11-2012, 16:00
Love the piano, Richard.. What make is it? Some pics would be cool!
RochaCullen
23-11-2012, 16:08
Love the club chair. I've been wanting one of those for years!
Love the piano, Richard.. What make is it? Some pics would be cool!
Joe - it's a Reid Sohn RS126. Up until recently we had a 1985 Yamaha U3 which whilst a great piano, I never really gelled with it. Undeniably well built, but I've never been 100% convinced by the Yamaha sound - that goes for the uprights and grands. I wasn't really prepared to go to the faff of getting it re-voiced so our dealer swapped the U3 for a brand new RS.
The RS is based on a German Seiler strung back/frame and has a German action and hammers but is assembled in the Far East (S Korea or Indonesia - they have 2 factories). A bit of a 'Skoda' in many ways - folk have been poo-poo'ing them for a while but have been shocked at how good they are once tried. Up until very recently they were just a fairly average/mediocre Far Eastern piano but since the Seiler/RS tie-in (RS also have a large share in Bechstein now) they have gone through the roof in terms of quality.
I absolutely love it - although it's a slightly smaller frame (126cm vs 131cm for the U3) it has a much bigger, warmer (ie German!) sound than the Yamaha. It's beautifully made too - as it happens the Royal Academy of Music have just bought a large number of Reid Sohns for the college so word is certainly getting round.
Couple of piccies...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00637_2.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC00633_2.jpg
Fookin' nora, that is unbelievably gorgeous! :eek: :stalks:
Who needs a hi-fi when you've got the real thing, eh dude? ;)
Marco.
Fookin' nora, that is unbelievably gorgeous! :eek: :stalks:
Who needs a hi-fi when you've got the real thing, eh dude? ;)
Marco.
'tis indeed a definite pride & joy in this house. :)
I'm not the world's greatest pianist (far from it!) but there's a lot of truth in what you say about having the 'real thing' at home. No matter what the system, it's never going to fully re-create the sort of dynamic energy, the sheer presence of a live acoustic piano. Even though this is only a large upright (still almost one of the largest you can buy new these days) its sound is fabulous - so full of resonance and complicated harmonic structure. Playing a piano - especially on stuff like Rachmaninov Preludes for example - is a truly physical experience. The main reason why we're having the music room built, it'll mean I can play late into the evening without disturbing the children. Also will mean I can teach later too - the piano mostly gets used for accompanying my Clarinet pupils at the moment.
Just wish I could play it better though; I started aged 9 which is really too late to be honest.
Sovereign
23-11-2012, 21:03
If you work for the Royal Academy you must know a friend of mine, Ade Steel? He tunes all their Pianos.
If you work for the Royal Academy you must know a friend of mine, Ade Steel? He tunes all their Pianos.
I don't work for them James, although I did have lessons as a young'un at the Junior Academy before doing my first performance diploma. I'm presently in the throes of going onto the board of examiners for Trinity College of Music.
I'll ask around at work as there's bound to be one or two who know Ade Steel.
The Black Adder
23-11-2012, 22:40
Thanks for the pictures, Richard. That is one lovely Joanna!
Yeah, been thinking of getting the wife a new piano. We have a Piano workshop near us who have some fantastic stuff.
It's a beauty... a real beauty!
Yeah, been thinking of getting the wife a new piano. We have a Piano workshop near us who have some fantastic stuff.
Every home should have one. :)
Latest addition, for the sake of completeness...although it is obviously incomplete at the moment:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01313.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01324.jpg
What wand are you puttin' on her, then Richard? :)
Marco.
Latest addition, for the sake of completeness...although it is obviously incomplete at the moment:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01313.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01324.jpg
Welcome home Richard:) Blog required for upgrades etc.
What wand are you puttin' on her, then Richard? :)
Marco.
Sadly, the OEM arm on the deck had pooped bearings (Lee, who I bought the deck from, very kindly chipped in to get things fixed) so it's off to J7 this week to be restored to good-as-new. Then it'll be loaded up with Jamie's modded/heat-shrinked Technics arm for now. I'll be keeping the original, unmodded arm to re-fit in case I decide to move the deck on.
Just had a constructive afternoon stripping the deck down, removing the arm and cleaning/re-lubing the main bearing, giving the whole deck a good spring clean whilst doing so. Gave the platter rim a good going over with AutoGlym Resin Polish; works a treat on bringing up the dots/shiny bits without being abrasive. Nice thing is that the lid is in very clean condition - very few marks on it - so the turntable's looking very smart.
Will do Andy. :)
Just some very simple (cheap!) bits for the moment - certainly the VA feet and I've got an Achromat to go on it (one which was made SL1210-friendly by an RAF aircraft engineer mate of mine) but that'll be enough for the time being. Doing those 2 things I've found lift the Technics to an perfectly listenable level.
Any mods which the deck receives beyond that will be secondhand - power supply included, if the desire to do that materialises. Big choice these days too, although I've no plans to spend megabucks. Although I didn't exactly break even on my last 1210, I didn't lose an awful lot and learnt a hell of a lot in the process, especially with regards to the mechanical parts of the turntable.
The 1210 brings out the tinkerer in me - always has. :D
Yes it certainly looks clean Richard! Looking forward to your thoughts( and pictures) as we have enjoyed them in the past:)
Lorks! Can't believe I actually bought something brand new for a change. Brought these little puppies home yesterday...
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/DSC01354.jpg
julesd68
10-12-2012, 18:45
Nice - clean, crisp design.
"Highly reviewed" as they say, so how do you rate them?
Nice - clean, crisp design.
"Highly reviewed" as they say, so how do you rate them?
Still running them in at the moment Jules, although they've had a good few hours' beasting this afternoon with a varied assortment of music from the likes of Depeche Mode to Vaughan Williams.
Somewhat musically dim-witted and with a very sluggish bottom end at the moment. Not especially crisp nor articulate rhythmically Very impressive sense of scale though for such a tiny speaker. Their build quality is superb - notably the finish on them which is flawless.
julesd68
10-12-2012, 18:55
Dim-witted speakers! I like it ... :lol:
Had you demo'd them?
Dim-witted speakers! I like it ... :lol:
Had you demo'd them?
No. :scratch:
Actually my dad may end up having them - bit of a long story this:
I sold him my old ProAc Super Tablettes several years ago (for a daft knock-down price, seeing as he's my old man) but regretted doing so ever since. He hardly uses his rig now and bless him his hearing's not so good these days, so he's offered to give me the ProAcs back. I really can't accept them off him for nothing (they're in beautiful condition and have the proper Target heavy stands to match) as they're worth quite a lot of money now.
I said I'd get him a pair of good, small speakers in exchange and he's more than happy with that. He's popping up here this Weds with them so will have a good listen and decide whether they work well in our room. I'm hoping they do - they kept me happy for something like 12 years.
julesd68
10-12-2012, 19:05
hmm ... yes I think I know which I'd prefer!
Good luck with it - hope you both end up happy campers ...
hmm ... yes I think I know which I'd prefer!
Good luck with it - hope you both end up happy campers ...
Thank you - and here's hoping the ickle ProAcs work well in our place. :)
Idlewithnodrive
10-12-2012, 23:07
The 2020i's are amazing vfm. Had a pair in the office for the last 12 months. A little too clinical for me for home listening but very neutral and open.
Just had a couple of hours' listening to some music through these little speakers (they really are little - hardly taller/wider than the Control Ones) and a fair bit of the bass bloat has started to disappear. They certainly do like a few watts up them, and really come alive when driven quite hard, where their somewhat lazy attitude to rhythm vanishes. Don't think they'd work too well with a valve amp, or certainly not one which doen't keep a good grip on proceedings.
I'm still not really convinced by their rear-ported bass. There's a bloom (fundamental, not from ambience/reflection) to bass which isn't natural and it does bother me. Saying that, I've yet to hear a rear-ported speaker which doesn't do this to some degree or other. Still, it's a form of speaker colouration and the human ear doesn't do a bad job at adpating to such things over time.
Still, on the upside they really do offer an impressive sense of scale, sounding way larger than one would expect from such a tiny box and in the same way my Royd Merlins did, disappear quite magically when positioned very carefully. They don't put much of a lid on orchestral cresendos either, showing little strain.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7383.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/Gromit011/IMG_7379.jpg
The stands aren't ideal (they're Something Solid SL24's which work brilliantly in themselves - Royds sing on these!) and as the bases of the Q's aren't flat - they house a wide channel for incoming cables - they're a wee bit perched, and held on with some Blu-Tak. Q do some rather nice dedicated stands and they're not badly priced either. If the ProAcs don't work out I'll invest in a pair.
freefallrob
11-12-2012, 16:15
Great pictures, they are very cute!
Great pictures, they are very cute!
Thanks Rob. :)
They are indeed cute little things, and I'm starting to warm to them too. Been ages since I bought a brand new pair of speakers, JBL's excepted, and it's quite fun, and interesting, hearing the character of these change over time.
They're not frightened to go loud too and judging by the amount of air being shifted through the rear port, that little driver really works for its living. If the ProAcs don't work out (no reason why they shouldn't, mind) then I'll be happy to hang on to the Q's. Our nearest neighbours are 40yds away so it's no problem playing music at realistic levels here, and I really don't want to give the ProAcs a hard life. They're too precious.
Hi Richard,
What made you go for the Q Acoustics? They just seem to have appeared on the scene without any 'previous', if you get me? :)
Marco.
Hi Richard,
What made you go for the Q Acoustics? They just seem to have appeared on the scene without any 'previous', if you get me? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco - yup, good question. :)
They came about several months, probably about a year in fact, ago when wandering around Lincoln. I'd popped into Superfi (a place I usually avoid to be honest but I needed some banana plugs) and saw these tiny little speakers sat there and wondered what the hell they were. I'd never even heard of Q Acoustics but did some reading up on them when I got home, and it appears they'd been causing a bit of a stir in the cheapo speaker market.
Peter Empson (of Deco Audio) really rates them and having previously trusted his judgement on a few items, and mulling over the idea of trying a pair, I tought well 'why not'. Tying this in with having the little ProAcs off my dad I thought if the SuperTabs don't work out, it's still the perfect excuse to try something new and who knows, they may end up as keepers. :)
Idlewithnodrive
11-12-2012, 20:42
Peter put me onto the 2020i's. Do you reckon he moonlights for Q Acoustics in his spare time ? ;)
Peter put me onto the 2020i's. Do you reckon he moonlights for Q Acoustics in his spare time ? ;)
I've never spoken to Peter about the Q's to be honest, just found them on Deco's website once I'd done some reading around - they come up on a Google search. I bought my pair from Superfi in Lincoln.
Hi Marco - yup, good question.
They came about several months, probably about a year in fact, ago when wandering around Lincoln. I'd popped into Superfi (a place I usually avoid to be honest but I needed some banana plugs) and saw these tiny little speakers sat there and wondered what the hell they were. I'd never even heard of Q Acoustics but did some reading up on them when I got home, and it appears they'd been causing a bit of a stir in the cheapo speaker market.
Peter Empson (of Deco Audio) really rates them and having previously trusted his judgement on a few items, and mulling over the idea of trying a pair, I tought well 'why not'. Tying this in with having the little ProAcs off my dad I thought if the SuperTabs don't work out, it's still the perfect excuse to try something new and who knows, they may end up as keepers.
Interesting, Richard... They certainly look nice, especially on their stands, which compliment them very well. My experience of Peter is that he has very good ears, so if you and he like them, they must be pretty decent. Could be an interesting new find for folks! :)
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.