View Full Version : Bass: Weight, Depth, Impact and Scale
This is a subject that fascinates me and I'd appreciate any contributions from others on this topic, particularly but not exclusively the more technically minded members.
For years I have strived, within limited constraints of budget, to put together a replay system that would deliver to my expectations in terms of Bass reproduction. I am nowhere near that at present and I am wondering if it is even possible no matter how much money could be thrown at the problem. Is that true?
To expand on that let me illustrate what I am aiming for. Take any rock recording that has electrified bass guitar on it. Now as the bass notes move up and down the scale each note should be heard and, to a lesser extent and depending on the frequency, felt, just the same as if the bassist was sat in the room with you plugged into an amp and using a 4x12 cab, but with gain turned right down i.e not playing at gig levels
In additon the note shape, definition, decay and reverb should all be handled to the same standard.
Now on some recordings it is possible to approach this effect and on others I wonder that it is simply not present in the mix in the first place - that is, all of the bass depth and scale has been EQ'd out. Or is it still there and my system simply cannot reproduce it?
Does anyone use kit or has heard kit that can achieve this effect with any recording carrying electric bass guitar and that does not rely on digital processing to EQ the sound to the room)?
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 12:16
Martin, were you one of the people that managed to get hold of one of the Stereonow Test CD #1?
Martin, were you one of the people that managed to get hold of one of the Stereonow Test CD #1?
No I must have missed that?
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 12:23
Shame as it was all done on a bass guitar :rolleyes: My system had no problems with any of it, in fact i mentioned to Howard that i genuinely thought it was going to be much more problematic as a test ;)
Basically it's a test CD for bass quality that'll show how good a system does in the bass department, exactly what you are on about!
I thought it was quite tame, but everything you mentioned quality wise is on it ;)
Linky to Howards original thread. (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10382)
Shame as it was all done on a bass guitar :rolleyes: My system had no problems with any of it, in fact i mentioned to Howard that i genuinely thought it was going to be much more problematic as a test ;)
Basically it's a test CD for bass quality that'll show how good a system does in the bass department, exactly what you are on about!
I thought it was quite tame, but everything you mentioned quality wise is on it ;)
Linky to Howards original thread. (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10382)
Ah I see - but this is just a plainly recorded bass guitar - in other words it is a showcase recording whereas I am asking if it is possible to reproduce the bass guitar on say, trying to pick an e.g that is fairly familiar, say Bruce Springsteens - Born in the USA - the same way?
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 12:36
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking Martin :scratch: But if you are asking me could i hear all the little differences in bass notes & the way the strings are played etc etc then the answer would be yes - if that's on the recording ;) I'm not overly familiar with Mr Springsteen so forgive me, i have none of his CDs..
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking Martin :scratch: But if you are asking me could i hear all the little differences in bass notes & the way the strings are played etc etc then the answer would be yes - if that's on the recording ;) I'm not overly familiar with Mr Springsteen so forgive me, i have none of his CDs..
Yeah bad example. My point is that I can here the bass in that recording but it has no depth weight or slam to it whereas in other recordings I own, say Led Zep II, that weight is there - is it that my system is not good enough to reproduce the same effect with the Springsteen record, or is it just not there on the recording in the first place?
john diamond
30-04-2011, 13:03
As a bass player, I have plugged my bass into a variety of inputs, examples are direct injecting into mixing consoles, guitar amps, bass amps, pre-amps into hifi systems, solid state amps, valve amps, digital systems, mic'ed cabinets, samplers, ported cabinets, opened backed cabinets, allsorts.
They all produce a different tone!
A really nice example of recorded bass to my ears is:
Finley Quaye - maverick a strike. This album is full of great recorded basses and instruments in general.
A great example of electric bass into a mic'ed bass cab, is track number 4 even after all. It really conveys the power and slam that I find is missing from alot of recordings.
It can sound boomy if you're system is not setup right, rather than that fantastic bloomy sound like it's actually meant to be! I doesn't go really low but rather hangs in the air!
also, stringed fretted instruments do resonate differently depending where one is playing on the neck.
basses that I have had include
music man
warwick standard corvette
1957 precision bass
At the moment I play my 1957 precision bass through a BASS POD2 into my hifi system.... It's pratical and I can get some very convincing and more important, very nice to the ear sounding tones this way....
Some purist would call this a waste of an instrument, but I sold all my other basses because this is the one I prefer to play.....
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 13:05
As i don't have any Led Zep or Springsteen i honestly can't answer your question. I listen to different music than yourself & a good deal of it has bass right down & even below 20Hz. The consequence of that is i like to be able to reproduce as accurately as possible right the way down to 15Hz (-6Db) & my system can do that. If there is bass on a recording then i'll definately hear/feel it or both :eyebrows:
I don't know your speakers so can't comment there either. The only thing i can say is i'm generally not keen on bass reflex enclosures unless they are well designed. In other words they need to use low Q drivers or there will be lots of overhang & the power amp will lose control. Far better to have an overdamped system which may result in slightly weaker but much cleaner bass than normally associated with that class of enclosure.
Sealed boxes are also good & in most instances better as long as the closed box Q is 0.7 or less - preferably 0.5. These roll off below resonance at 12Db/octave which means there is still usuable bass below that resonance, in the case of 0.5 Q it's slower to roll off still. Reflexs' unless the driver is stuffed into a tiny cabinet will roll off at 24Db/octave which results in a huge phase shift at the port resonance & this can be noticeable as mistimed notes compared to bass a little higher in the range.
The problem is that sealed boxes just can't move a lot of air & the bass resonance is usually at about 50 - 60Hz with an 8" driver, asking it to go deeper will result in it running out of excursion :rolleyes:
My choice is 4th order bandpass which not only moves more air than a sealed box, but also can lower the resonance frequency of the driver depending on it's type. There is also the same rolloff as a sealed box below resonance just the same as a sealed box. The only negative is you now have a low pass 12Db/octave filter at some point above this so effectively it can only do bass ;)
A really nice example of recorded bass to my ears is:
Finley Quaye - maverick a strike. This album is full of great recorded basses and instruments in general.
A great example of electric bass into a mic'ed bass cab, is track number 4 even after all. It really conveys the power and slam that I find is missing from alot of recordings.
....
Not listened to that in years but that is a good example of what I'm taking about - play that album through some little bookshelf speakers you will still get some good bass power and response. Perhaps it is all down to the recording and I am just tilting at windmills...
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 13:16
It's sounding that way Martin ;)
Unfortunately there isn’t a simple answer. As Mark points out, a lot will depend on the roll off of your particular speakers. A great many speakers will do bass down to 80 to 90 Hz; after that its down to driver/crossover/enclosure design not to mention the room.
The probability is if you’re getting satisfactory bass from some tracks and not from others then the bass isn’t there.
I get bass down to about 20Hz, but because of the roll off notes played below around 40Hz aren’t as prominent as those above this frequency. Whether these low bass notes are reproduced in a controlled and accurate manner will have a lot to do with the quality of the drivers and your amps ability to control their movement.
hifi_dave
30-04-2011, 13:30
If you can get the weight, extension and slam on some recordings but not others, it is the recording at fault.
I have a few CD's and LP's I put on for when people say ' there's not a lot of bass there'. Finlay Quaye is one, Nitin Sawhney 'Beyond skin' is another good example and I have a whole heap of others which I can drag out to demonstrate the bass potential.
On the other hand, I have many CD's and LP's with little bass and/or indistinct, muddled bass. These might have other attributes but good bass isn't one of them.
The probability is if you’re getting satisfactory bass from some tracks and not from others then the bass isn’t there.
.
That's sort of what I am thinking - the recording is the issue, not the replay.
Many hifi systems are simply incapable of revealing the full bandwidth and detail of modern recordings.
I was once fortunate enough to hear what was then the Krell reference system at CES some years ago.
It comprised a pair of Apogee ribbons- the original, full range items that came before the Scintilla, tri amped by huge reference line Krell monoblocks. Sources were Krell CD and a huge Basis turntable.
I had a couple of CD's with me that I knew very well but that system redefined my idea of what those CD's contained.... My God it was like listening to live music. Bass? Like nothing on earth and a soundstage that you could walk around in. The dynamic range was almost scary, it was impossible to remain unmoved by music reproduced on this scale. But, the cost!!! I think, at the time, it was over a quarter of a million dollars.
The other issue, I think, is often room size. Someone help me out here: am I right in saying that a 20hz signal will have a wavelength of over 35 feet? Is your listening room that big?
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 13:51
A full wavelength of 20Hz is 54ft ;) 16.5M
Sound travels about 330M per second so divide that by the frequency & you'll get the wavelength..
.
I had a couple of CD's with me that I knew very well but that system redefined my idea of what those CD's contained.... My God it was like listening to live music. Bass? Like nothing on earth and a soundstage that you could walk around in. The dynamic range was almost scary, it was impossible to remain unmoved by music reproduced on this scale.
So that's a vote the other way, perhaps? What were the CDs, do you remember?
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 14:00
Martin, one thing you can be absolutely sure about is this :eyebrows: If the speakers can't reproduce it you'll never hear it!
A bit hard to get my head around ribbon speakers doing fantastic bass at low frequencies, but sure Martin nip out with your £250,000 and give it a shot :)
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 14:06
They probably had a Krell MRS (Master Reference Subwoofer) to hand John ;) It's a monster with twin 15" in a sealed enclosure, each 15" has a 3" pk-pk linear excursion :eek:
Got that wrong, it's 3" (http://www.krellonline.com/sub.html)
A bit hard to get my head around ribbon speakers doing fantastic bass at low frequencies, but sure Martin nip out with your £250,000 and give it a shot :)
mmm, it will mean emptying one of my Swiss accounts....:eyebrows:
Makes you wonder how they brace the cones with that sort of excursion :eek:
But yeah, 2 x 15” with plenty of damping should do the trick ;)
No worries Martin, I’ll empty out my pennies jar and send it on :lolsign:
No worries Martin, I’ll empty out my pennies jar and send it on :lolsign:
:lolsign:
Mark is right when he says that if your system can't reproduce it, you will never hear it.
There are two constraints to the reproduction of good bass: one is the room/system response and the other is the recording. In order to hear what a good recording can do in the bass, you need a system with wide open power bandwidth (not just frequency response) down to below 20Hz PLUS a room that allows it to bloom without loading up and producing standing waves. None of us have a perfect room so there are always going to be frequencies that load up the room and sound much louder than other frequencies. In the main, though, provided you have big speakers with sufficient surface area of bass drivers and an amp that can drive the excursions required, you most probably will be able to reproduce all that is on the recording.
Recordings themselves vary enormously. Some have lovely low frequency excursion and others have been severely bass limited. Worse than that are where engineers have manipulated things to create a hump in the upper bass to make small speakers sound impressive; these recordings usually lack any real bass but sound horrible nonetheless because of nasty, lumpy bass that loads the room all too easily.
It's a minefield. I can name a few recordings with exceptional bass if anyone is interested.
I think they are several ways to get this
I have gone down the root of open baffles and I use dipole bass Once you hear bass without a box there is nothing quite like it I could never go back to box speakers
I guess what they give me in the bass is really muiscal bass If you ever come down to London your more than welcome to hear what they can do
I usually put on this track if I really want to impress someone
Really huge bass horns are the other way but who has the bloody space Its bad enough having 15" drivers .
I guess if you want scale and I am talking really huge scale you cannnot really get far away from what big drivers do There might be others closer to you who can demo also
I am sure Marc sysrtem does amazing bass he has some really good drivers and amps
I've been on the same track, trying to get realistic levels of bass, i dont think i could live with anything but open baffle bass and low q drivers,
but using them is no easy route ,
i have/ had a few large large corner refex cabs and have taken the time to listen to quite alot of systems, so i know what sound to chase, but to do it with the level of detail that i hear with open baffles and without the initially impressive sounding.. issues of many reflex cabs
its been difficult to do, but i feel i'm something like close to where i want to be... in my mind at least
my test music has been the likes of led zep, prodigy, massive attack etc and more recently, later leonard cohen, which has some very detailed bass power in the music.
but now i know my system does very detailed, deep bass, i find many tracks seem to have rather a shortage of it in the recording.. its as though its been eq'd out
but i've also heard tracks that i know well, where a deep bass rift has appeared that i've never heard before..
so i would say its down to the recordings,
and then getting the system to manage to play whats in them...
”It's a minefield. I can name a few recordings with exceptional bass if anyone is interested.”
Yeah go on Martin, let’s read your suggestions.
Something for bass tone, probably Harp if you have such a recommendation and something electronic would be cool.
And something from an piped organ might be good.
I am hoping to hear this soon One of my friends have these set up and is totally blown away by them
http://www.aespeakers.com/news.php?start=0&news_id=24
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 20:24
I am hoping to hear this soon One of my friends have these set up and is totally blown away by them
http://www.aespeakers.com/news.php?start=0&news_id=24
Yuk, only good for OBs, the QTS is through the roof @ 0.8 :eek: They could be used with a Linkwitz/Riley network though in a sealed box :)
14mm linear excursion each way should be interesting though ;)
With a total Q of 0.8 the amplifier that's feeding it will have far less control over the driver as the magnetic field isn't strong enough to allow it. I like low Q speakers, less than a total Q of 0.3 so the amplifier can control the cone ;)
Yep these are for Open Baffle but I trust my friend on this as I said OB bass will give you something box bass cannot IMHO ;)
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 20:34
One day i'll have to hear this John, i just don't see how the hell you can get a load of deep clean bass with no box though due to cancellation :scratch:
Come down and listen or go up and visit SPU (Steve) or Clive I like rocking kick bass I get that in spades I also get great acoustic bass but where it really hits home and never heard any other speaker do this is in the mid bass I just hear stuff I never knew was there
Good cabinet design even in open baffles make a huge difference and for rock well this is what does it for me
Sorry not really understand the techinical answers but trust me I get deep clean bass
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 20:45
Ok, but can you hear & feel a 20Hz signal? How about 15Hz? I understand that upper bass might well be quite good as there is far less cancellation there due to the shorter wavelength & distance between the front & back of the cone so it'll be happier reproducing it...
What do you call "upper bass"? To me that is 80 - 150Hz, mid bass would be 30 - 80Hz & deep bass is everything below 30Hz ;) I have lots of recordings with bass that is sub 30Hz, my guess is i would hear no bass at all with an OB at those frequencies :scratch:
Email Clive he is more techinical than me I know when he heard the drivers I use his measurement showed they were clean all the way down to 20hz and below
I am not sure of meaurements I just report what I am hearing Marc ref mid bass
A little true story when a friend set his Berhinger up he did not have to make any alterations on the eq setting on a partial open baffles he has to use a lot of eq and on normal speakers lets not even go there
He also uses the same CD without distoration and is amble to keep up with the timing and the subtles harmonics
The linked I put up are even better drivers than the ones Clive measured only real issue is perhaps getting hold of them
Reid Malenfant
30-04-2011, 21:04
John, i have to hear these things :) I Know Celestion might have done interesting things with the SL6000 sub (might be wrong on that one name wise) but i just can't see how an OB can reproduce a 20Hz signal accurately with the cancellation from the front to the rear of the speaker without the baffle being at least a quarter wavelength accross. That'd be at least 4M each way from side to side & up & down :scratch:
That's forgetting the fact that the driver would need to have a resonance frequency of 20Hz or lower in the first place..
I'll reserve judgement though until i actually hear a pair ;)
ATB m8 ;)
Yes trust your ears Marc you know you more than welcome here and there are others too who have systems worth checking out
I am not really into deep electronic bass I more into rock bass and bass on fusion records etc and this works well for that it might not work for deep electronic bass In the past with the old baffle mine had some issues with very deep electronic bass but think thats cured with the new baffle I was only using 1/4" birch ply now I use 40mm MDF and everything really tightened but bec I do not listen to this music cannot comment I know my friend loves deep electronic bass and he has no issues with the drivers I linked too
Yeah go on Martin, let’s read your suggestions.
In no particular order, but all featuring excellent deep and textured bass:
Van Morrison: Common One
Sarah McLachlan: Afterglow
Kraftwerk: Minimum Maximum
Saint-Saens: Symphony No.3, Batiz, LPO, ASV
Michael Murray, The Rufatti Organ in Davies Symphony Hall, Telarc
Respighi: Pines of Rome etc., Lane, Atlanta SO, Telarc
Kodo: Heartbeat Drummers of Japan, Sheffield Lab
Interesting subject, chaps. I'll get to this later....
Hi John,
As a bass player, I have plugged my bass into a variety of inputs, examples are direct injecting into mixing consoles, guitar amps, bass amps, pre-amps into hifi systems, solid state amps, valve amps, digital systems, mic'ed cabinets, samplers, ported cabinets, opened backed cabinets, allsorts.
They all produce a different tone!
A really nice example of recorded bass to my ears is:
Finley Quaye - maverick a strike. This album is full of great recorded basses and instruments in general.
A great example of electric bass into a mic'ed bass cab, is track number 4 even after all. It really conveys the power and slam that I find is missing from alot of recordings.
It can sound boomy if you're system is not setup right, rather than that fantastic bloomy sound like it's actually meant to be! I doesn't go really low but rather hangs in the air!
also, stringed fretted instruments do resonate differently depending where one is playing on the neck.
basses that I have had include
music man
warwick standard corvette
1957 precision bass
At the moment I play my 1957 precision bass through a BASS POD2 into my hifi system.... It's pratical and I can get some very convincing and more important, very nice to the ear sounding tones this way....
Some purist would call this a waste of an instrument, but I sold all my other basses because this is the one I prefer to play.....
Could you do me a favour please and add your basic location to your profile? This is now required from all members - cheers! :cool:
Marco.
john diamond
30-04-2011, 22:06
I am not arguing that one needs a full range system, or there abouts
If we take a standard tuned 4 string bass guitar E,A,D,G
G 97.999 Hz
D 73.416 Hz
A 55 Hz
E 41.204 Hz
These are open strings not fretted, so the lowest frequency the instrument can produce is 41.204Hz. One doesn't just pluck a open E string to creat a bassline
I would say most basslines are between 40hz - 120hz including reggae basslines. Extra bass is just added to the sound to beef it up. I would say a typically bassline is around 60hz leaving room to go up and down the neck frequency spectrum.
I have had horns, panels, sealed, isobaric loaded bass speakers and ported speakers.
All produce different tones and pressure when it comes to bass frequencies.
Find the type of speaker that produces bass you like.
Personnally I change my speakers as I get board of the sound and like the challange of setting a new pair in my room every 3 or so years. My electronics don't change as they are my reference!
I would say that ported speakers are the trickest to setup, close to panels then horns. Also ported cabinets tend to sound the worst or react the worst with the room if they are not set up properly, but the benefit is that one dosen't need a big box, and can get large open bass with modest sized speakers.
You really are only missing 2 octaves of being fullrange and most likely a world of pain as this is were most rooms will react! and those 2 octave don't carry that much detail as we all agree that detail is in the treble and bass below a certain frequency becomes omnidirectional dosen't it?
when mastering isn't bass summed to mono below a certain frequency as it cause less problems on LP records????
john diamond
30-04-2011, 22:08
Interesting subject, chaps. I'll get to this later....
Hi John,
Could you do me a favour please and add your basic location to your profile? This is now required from all members - cheers! :cool:
Marco.
DONE!
John, i have to hear these things :) I Know Celestion might have done interesting things with the SL6000 sub (might be wrong on that one name wise) but i just can't see how an OB can reproduce a 20Hz signal accurately with the cancellation from the front to the rear of the speaker without the baffle being at least a quarter wavelength accross. That'd be at least 4M each way from side to side & up & down :scratch:
That's forgetting the fact that the driver would need to have a resonance frequency of 20Hz or lower in the first place..
I'll reserve judgement though until i actually hear a pair ;)
ATB m8 ;)
you have a point there mark, 20 hz in a pure sine wave is too low for me to hear, never mind my speakers produce it, mine are making quite a reasonable output from around 35 htz, i have them close into the corners so that helps focus the bass.
my baffles have the 2 x 18" drivers per side very close and coupled to the floor and one wall so the baffle losses are not what i used to imagine they would be,
i thought my speakers low bass levels are close to ian walkers tannoys i heard a few weeks ago, but more efficient and with the open baffle sound.
now in my opinion 35 htz it very low as far as most music is concerned,
my speakers are no bigger than if i used a box to produce the levels i get, at the efficiency i'm getting using, say a single 15 or 18" driver,
really good bass in my mind is not produced by long throw drivers so i'm in total agreement about low q drivers, my route with speakers has gone totally against the normal way of thinking regarding bass, as most seem to prefer the higher q route for achieving bass and by adding more power.
which works by the way... that is until what hears what can be achieved with multipal low q units
Hello Mr Diamond from a near neighbour, most of the above has gone woosh over my head i'm afraid, i've heard really good bass from Ribbons ECL's as well as my DCM's all of which have no cabinet so to speak so i agree it doesn't always mean big drivers giving big bass,
one track i have used for bass testing is "BlackStreet No Digigity" , i will now look up the other suggestions if i don't fall asleep soon, i love Famous Grouse
So that's a vote the other way, perhaps? What were the CDs, do you remember?
Yes, of course. They were Steve McQueen by Prefab Sprout and The Flat Earth by Thomas Dolby. It was some years ago and I only got to hear bits of both but they are both recordings with good dynamic range. I've certainly never heard them sound as good since.
On both recordings is was possible to follow each musician's contribution in fine detail. A degree of separation I have never encountered again.
I have my subs plates cut off at 25hz and never feel the need to go lower I know many people do I guess for the deep electronic stuff I would have to add a sub but as musical taste is more rock and I am more interested in things like kick drums and double bass i have no real need to go any lower
So i guess what I am saying like most things it depends what you want
Dipole bass is certainly not for everyone they reqiure big drivers and agree with Steve multiple units really do create something special
Some interesting comments made, thanks all. Like Mark I have also wondered about open baffles and the theoretical bass cancellation - I think the Celestion sl6000 used two drivers in push pull and active EQ to make it work, could be wrong about that.
John- I'll be in London in June maybe I could come round and bug you for half an hour?
Cheers for those Martin. I have 4 out of the 7 so I dug them up and had a listen. Not on my favorite listening list I must confess. I’m going to have to go through my tapes to find anything classical.
Yep, I would agree with you, in general decently recorded bass guitar, not quite so sure about the kick drums on the Van Morrison and Sarah McLachlan but not many engineers get drum kit recording quite right imo.
I had in mind something a bit more challenging.
Mediski Martin & Wood, Uninvisible (Got everything in here somewhere, tone depth, impact)
Biosphere and HIA Polar Sequences, Meltwater (a speaker destroyer)
The Who, Eminence Front
Japan, Tin Drum (Tone for this rather than depth)
Yello, Touch
Seventh Wave, Psi Fi, Only The Beginning (pleasant Reggae riff with good tone that bubbles along underneath the electronics easily differentiated from keyboard and drum work)
Puscifier, Indigo Children (Well it’s Tool basically and that says it all)
New Cool Collective, Trippin Feet, Tony Allen.
Unfortunately no Cathedral style Organ music or Harp in the above which can be very difficult for a stereo system to make convincing. This is something I feel gets overlooked often in these discussions; we listen to stereo and mistakenly call it High Fidelity but listen to some deep Harp chords live and you soon come to realize that there isn’t much Hi Fi about it.
Some interesting comments made, thanks all. Like Mark I have also wondered about open baffles and the theoretical bass cancellation - I think the Celestion sl6000 used two drivers in push pull and active EQ to make it work, could be wrong about that.
John- I'll be in London in June maybe I could come round and bug you for half an hour?
That be cool
I am not saying open baffles are for everyone but with the music I listen too they work for me.
I think like everything hear them for yourself
That be cool
I am not saying open baffles are for everyone but with the music I listen too they work for me.
I think like everything hear them for yourself
Sound - will get in touch nearer the time:)
Yello, Touch
I've got that and will give it an enthusiastic play later.
There's also the question of reproducing the ambience of an event. Richard Lord of REL used to talk about this a lot, the reproduction of frequencies way below the lowest notes of instruments giving an appreciation of the size of the venue and - almost - the air movements. Think of an underground train coming in to a station and the huge wafting low frequencies generated.
Sometimes it is not always welcome, of course. I have a prized recording of the Durufle/Faure Requiems recorded at Kings College where the traffic noise outside produces deep vibes around my listening room; or the magnificent Grieg's Piano Concerto by Radu Lupu where the Kingsway Hall underground trains are notable, especially during the second movement.
For me anything on the Gordian Knot Emergant album some really deep bass going on and a really great bass player so lots of other things going on too
Yes, it can be amusing what gets into live recordings.
I have some reel to reel recordings from some bands we put on at Watford Town Hall years ago. Not bad recordings direct to tape but the emergency service sirens wafting in and out don’t really add atmosphere. :lolsign:
Reid Malenfant
05-05-2011, 18:19
If it's on the recording i want to hear/feel it :lol:
Just thought i'd bring this thread back to life no i'm back (hopefully for a good while :rolleyes:) myself :cool:
Neil McCauley
05-05-2011, 19:33
If it's on the recording i want to hear/feel it :lol:
Just thought i'd bring this thread back to life no i'm back (hopefully for a good while :rolleyes:) myself :cool:
Okay. This will do it > http://amzn.to/kgF0Ll
Be very careful with high-power amps into Harbeth speakers if you want to play at 'realistic' SPLs - other than the 40.1 The SHL5 (with an LFD, but not essentially so) truly conveys the wonders of the fretless bass playing. Then if you get the chance just play the same track through the 40.1 and then laugh at how it screws it up. Talk about 'undamped' Ho Hum. Meanwhile - that SHL5 is a true classic, up there with the very best the UK has ever produced.
This is the one you need:
Michael Murray - Organ Recital
It has the deepest organ pedals I've ever heard in a recording, from the huge Ruffatti organ in Davies Symphony Hall. The slow movement from Widor's Symphony No. 6 is extraordinary.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jtlx7NYlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
"Be very careful with high-power amps into Harbeth speakers if you want to play at 'realistic' SPLs - other than the 40.1 The SHL5 (with an LFD, but not essentially so) truly conveys the wonders of the fretless bass playing. Then if you get the chance just play the same track through the 40.1 and then laugh at how it screws it up. Talk about 'undamped' Ho Hum. Meanwhile - that SHL5 is a true classic, up there with the very best the UK has ever produced"
Howard
I remember reading once, sorry can't remember where, that you felt it was possible to get exceptional bass from integrating an Eclipse subwoofer with the smaller Harbeths. Have I recalled this correctly ?
If it's on the recording i want to hear/feel it :lol:
I know what you mean, one needs to feel the 'kick' of a bass drum as well as hear it...but I doubt one could ever recreate the intensity of a good live performance, with a well sorted PA.
I saw mogwai about 2 months ago, and as always they brought their own PA, every kick of the bass drum felt like someone hitting my chest with a pillow, quite hard! :)
Probably my highlight as far as live performances go (from a sound quality perspective) was seeing Leftfield on the rhythm & stealth tour @ Brixton academy. They used their own PA, for bass and depth 'Fat Planet' was something to behold, I remember the top of my baldy head tingling, I then realised it was covered in plaster from the ceiling. There were some reports of it being over 130dB at the mixing desk, true or not it was quite special ;)
anthonyTD
06-05-2011, 10:56
hi all,
interesting thread, i think dynamic range has a big influence on percieved levels of intensity where individual instruments [and voices]are concerned.
original early stereo recordings seem to have much greater diffrential between low and high passages and impact, ie; musical intensity [especialy orchestral] can go from very subtle [almost undetectable] to knocking you into the back of your chair within micro seconds! today, a lot [not all] of the recordings we hear on digital have passed the level war with flying colours, eg, their recording levels pushed so high that there is very little diffrential between low and high, its almost like listening to a jukebox where this phenomenon was created deliberately with compressor and limiter circuits to ensure all records played at the same level and intensity.
Anthony,TD...
Neil McCauley
06-05-2011, 11:21
Howard
I remember reading once, sorry can't remember where, that you felt it was possible to get exceptional bass from integrating an Eclipse subwoofer with the smaller Harbeths. Have I recalled this correctly ?[/QUOTE]
Yes indeed. Although I never wrote this up, this was certainly my experience.
Haselsh1
07-05-2011, 13:23
May I suggest that for some notable bass you take a listen to 'Tropic Affair' by Jim Brock on Reference Recordings.
Reid Malenfant
07-05-2011, 18:24
Want bass? You must try CD2 of this album (http://www.discogs.com/Syn-Syn/release/16613) :eyebrows:
4473
On most systems i doubt you'd hear half of what's going on as it appears that it only occasionally puts out a bassline at 40Hz or over, most of the time it's rumbling away down near 20Hz if not lower :eek: When i say most of the time i mean all the time it's not doing 40Hz or above :lol:
This would literally kill bass drivers in small reflex enclosures as it'd unload them just about the whole way through the CD 4474
Just about anything by Lustmord as well now i think about it ;)
I’ve just been listening to one of your recommendation, Van Morrison - Common One again Martin.
When I initially commented I had given it a fairly halfhearted listen on the laptop, not being a great Van Morrison fan……
However, I’m interested in what people consider decent recordings if only because it may help me to discover any system deficiencies. So, I re- ripped it to my music server and earlier today gave what I suppose could be described as a critical listen.
It is as you say, an interesting recording. The engineer does seem to have gone to some trouble to keep a sense of dynamics throughout the mix. There isn’t, from listening, much going on below the 50Hz ish frequency; to be expected given a great many studio mikes don’t record much below that. I’ll probably measure later.
But, throughout the range up to say 13 kHz the dynamics are excellent, above this, on my system at least it gets a bit spit and splash, possibly my kit but also possibly the recording mikes limitation.
Now I’ve given it a proper listen, I may decide I like it so thanks.
Not overly impressed with the Japanese drumming which imo (DVD rip I think) isn’t particularly well recorded; I gave that a re-rip and re-listen as well.
Anyway, I’ll seek out your classical recommendations now.
It is as you say, an interesting recording. The engineer does seem to have gone to some trouble to keep a sense of dynamics throughout the mix. There isn’t, from listening, much going on below the 50Hz ish frequency; to be expected given a great many studio mikes don’t record much below that. I’ll probably measure later.
But, throughout the range up to say 13 kHz the dynamics are excellent, above this, on my system at least it gets a bit spit and splash, possibly my kit but also possibly the recording mikes limitation.
It's a recording that I thought was good as a CD, but in vinyl form it's in an altogether different league. The bass guitar is incredibly visceral and the overall dynamics, as you say, continuously impressive. To me, the drum kit and cymbals are tight and not splashy. One of those musical moments into which you can immerse yourself. A real favourite of mine and one of the best Morrisons I have.
Anyway, I’ll seek out your classical recommendations now.
They're all good, but if you want to jump straight to the money shot, try the Michael Murray. You need serious woofer and amplifier power, be warned :)
“It's a recording that I thought was good as a CD, but in vinyl form it's in an altogether different league”
I’ve never understood this :scratch:
I was under the impression that Super Bear Studios was one of the early all digital studios used by Floyd and Elton John (?) so I assume Van Morrison’s album was in digital format at the outset. It’s interesting that you find a noticeable difference to the better between the CD, which is a direct transfer and the analogue pressing of a digital recording.
I’ve got the June/July re-mastered CD version so maybe they messed about with the higher frequencies :scratch:
I’ll have a scout around for the Michael Murray :)
I was under the impression that Super Bear Studios was one of the early all digital studios used by Floyd and Elton John (?) so I assume Van Morrison’s album was in digital format at the outset.
Both LP and CD notes don't say and there is no AAD or DDD notation on the CD. Note that the mastering was by Bernie Grundman and I have the utmost respect for anything that he masters. His involvement practically guarantees great sound.
I think this is rather interesting.
We have here a recording that both of us say is of very good quality, recorded in what was then I believe, a state of the art studio, mastered by an extremely competent engineer and by listening at least, neither of us it seems are able to say if it’s a digital or analogue master.
What’s more, and this seems to be reported regularly, you write that what may or may not be a digital master pressed to vinyl sounds better to your ears than the original.
What’s even weirder is deep bass I would have thought is more likely to be reproduced from a digital medium, given the groove width in cut or pressed vinyl gets impossible at very intense low frequencies and of course, the needle shape, no matter how carefully cut, only reaches so far down into the cut and only so far across the width.
I must confess at this point I have trouble differentiating between a good 320 mp3 and redbook, let alone whether it’s a digital recording or not, but, lots here claim they can hear the difference.
Makes you wonder really ;)
It's not the only digital recording that sounds brilliant on vinyl, either. Take the very first digital rock recording: Ry Cooder's Bop 'til You Drop. That, too, sounds superb on vinyl. Something about vinyl reproduction of a good recording creates a sense of vividness and dynamic realism that CD just misses. I have this on both formats to compare, too, and my Ayre player is no sluggard!
tubehunter
10-05-2011, 07:16
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/van/Front.jpg
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/van/CD.jpg
http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t350/halx00/van/Back.jpg
Aha! AAD. Interestingly, my CD packaging doesn't say that. I don't think it fully explains the good sound quality, as there are many terrific digital recordings out there, but I know that Grundman favours analogue recordings. It's a great album, regardless, and the vinyl is truly superb.
Thanks for that, Duncan.
P.S. just noticed: who is Gert van Hoeyen? If it has been remastered to compete in the loudness wars, this may explain John's findings if he has the same version?
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