FLAC/ALAC - Hissing & Volume

[Yoga]

Hi guys,

I'm hearing some noise/hissing on CD rips (same on both FLAC/ALAC). Using 44.1Khz - 2ch 24-bit in MIDI options (Mac OS X), with Fidelia set to the same with 24-bit dithering enabled.

It's identical via both TOSlink and USB through the Caiman, and also when output to either HD595s and M-Audio AV-40's (have a look here (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_au/StudiophileAV40.html), click the specs link on the left).

I appreciate some tracks have more noise due to recording quality. On high quality recordings, such as Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms, Pink Floyd (DSOTM, WYWH, Division Bell) and Steely Dan (Aja).

The volume has to be reasonably loud to hear the hiss/noise, so I was wondering whether my expectations are too high with this equipment. I was hoping to be able to whack the sound up loud without any hissing during silent moments :¬)

Will this go with a decent amp and speakers? Or is noise, no matter how minimal, part of the experience?

Current listening/office setup:

Mac running Fidelia (http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/fidelia/) -> TOSLink (Van den Hull OPTOCOUPLER Mk II) -> Gatored Caiman -> AV-40 (Belkin Silver Pure AV RCA) or HD595.

Audio MIDI: 44.1KHz, 2ch-24bit
Fidelia: 44.1KHz

As always, I value your experience and opinions!

Ross

[Alex_UK]

I'm not a Mac expert - but I think there is something wrong there, as you shouldn't be getting any hissing with file based audio unless it is on the recording.

I'm guessing you don't have any other source you could try into the Caiman such as a CD player to eliminate any possible malfunction with it and assuming all is well, that the problem lies with the computer and not the DAC/Speakers?

[WAD62]

Like Alex I can't help you R.E. the Mac...

Again you should have no such problem with lossless file playback on any platform, configured correctly that is ;)

[Tim]

When you say 'high quality recordings' what exactly do you mean? I'm not sure but did I read that you have some MFSL discs? I have DSOTM on MFSL and there is hiss, that's from the original master tapes, as the MFSL recording is a direct lift and hasn't been altered in anyway. The simple test will be do a bunch of rips from very modern good recordings and if there is no hiss, then it's the recording not the equipment. At high volumes on headphones you will get hiss from older master tape recordings. That inky blackness only comes from well recorded modern digital i.e. DDD recordings. A lot of what you have would have been recorded in analogue.

But I'm no expert here, just my best guess:scratch:

[Stratmangler]

I do not have any issues with hiss using a Squeezebox Touch into the Caiman playing the mentioned recordings, nor do I have an issue playing them from my laptop into the Caiman, using Foobar2000 over USB.

[Yoga]

I'm not a Mac expert - but I think there is something wrong there, as you shouldn't be getting any hissing with file based audio unless it is on the recording.

I'm guessing you don't have any other source you could try into the Caiman such as a CD player to eliminate any possible malfunction with it and assuming all is well, that the problem lies with the computer and not the DAC/Speakers?

I'll try with the AV equipment downstairs. The best I can do is:

Pioneer BDP320 (TOSlink) -> Caiman (TOSlink) -> Denon 2310 -> Kef IQ5SE


Like Alex I can't help you R.E. the Mac...

Again you should have no such problem with lossless file playback on any platform, configured correctly that is ;)

Thanks, at least I know there is noise-free music waiting out there!


When you say 'high quality recordings' what exactly do you mean?

I ripped DOSM and others using ALAC. I also downloaded FLAC versions to compare (temporarily) which sounded identical, which now leads me to believe it's my set-up. Disappointing...


I do not have any issues with hiss using a Squeezebox Touch into the Caiman playing the mentioned recordings, nor do I have an issue playing them from my laptop into the Caiman, using Foobar2000 over USB.

Time to investigate.

What could other potential causes be? Wires near PSU's and whatnot?

[Rare Bird]

Only extra noise i hear is what the CD player wasnt good enough to pick up.

[Yoga]

Only extra noise i hear is what the CD player wasnt good enough to pick up.

That's exactly what I thought it may have been. Then again, with digital music, you wouldn't expect any noise whatsoever.

[slate]

Much to learn you still have my young apprentice

[Yoga]

Much to learn you still have my young apprentice

:lolsign:

Indeed!

Edit: anything constructive to help on that path? :¬)

[Bonky]

Hi, I too have a Mac and don't suffer any hiss.

Thanks for the Fidelia link. I've downloaded the demo; seems good, but what are the advantages over other similar players?

Back to the topic. Is the hiss still apparent when all the amp etc is turned on but with the Mac off/ Or with the Mac on but not playing anything? Does the same thing happen when you use iTunes?

BW

Richard

[technobear]

That's exactly what I thought it may have been. Then again, with digital music, you wouldn't expect any noise whatsoever.

A common misconception. None of that old Pink Floyd or Dire Straits was recorded digitally. It was all analogue reel-to-reel tape. Dire Straits Love Over Gold has apalling tape hiss.

[Rare Bird]

A common misconception. None of that old Pink Floyd or Dire Straits was recorded digitally. It was all analogue reel-to-reel tape. Dire Straits Love Over Gold has apalling tape hiss.

He's mentioned Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms which is a DDD (Fully digital).

[Yoga]

Hi, I too have a Mac and don't suffer any hiss.

Thanks for the Fidelia link. I've downloaded the demo; seems good, but what are the advantages over other similar players?

Back to the topic. Is the hiss still apparent when all the amp etc is turned on but with the Mac off/ Or with the Mac on but not playing anything? Does the same thing happen when you use iTunes?

BW

Richard

Do you guys not get *any* hiss/noise even with the volume up loud?

Fidelia - I grabbed it upon reading some very positive reviews in which it was compared to other 'high def' software.

By digital, I also meant electronica, such as Trentmoller. Brothers in Arms is considered an accessible reference CD due to its digital recording also :¬)

[technobear]

He's mentioned Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms which is a DDD (Fully digital).

Who knew? :scratch:

Well I'm playing it now and there is no detectable hiss whatsoever. If the Zu's can't pick it up then it isn't there.

[Yoga]

Who knew? :scratch:

Well I'm playing it now and there is no detectable hiss whatsoever. If the Zu's can't pick it up then it isn't there.

Even with volume up very loud?

I also have a MacBook Pro, which I tried via Caiman USB. It had the exact same noise as the Mac on Brothers in Arms (I was able to do an instant A/B switch to compare).

Perhaps it's the HD595's, or is it possible I have a duff Caiman?

[Werner Berghofer]

Ross,


I'm hearing some noise/hissing on CD rips

I just checked ”Brothers in arms“, ”Dark side of the moon“ and ”Wish you were here“, all ripped to ALAC, played via iTunes (latest version), Audio MIDI Setup is 44.1 kHz, 2ch-16 bit. Toslink connection to a gatorized Caiman+, AKG K701 headphones connected to the Caiman+, volume knob in the maximum position. I didn’t notice any hiss, neither with a Mac mini nor a Macbook Pro.

I tried the same tracks on a gatorized TC-7520, connected via USB to a Macbook Pro: same results, no audible hiss – except Mark Knopfler’s vocal style :-)

[Yoga]

Ross,

I just checked ”Brothers in arms“, ”Dark side of the moon“ and ”Wish you were here“, all ripped to ALAC, played via iTunes (latest version), Audio MIDI Setup is 44.1 kHz, 2ch-16 bit. Toslink connection to a gatorized Caiman+, AKG K701 headphones connected to the Caiman+, volume knob in the maximum position. I didn’t notice any hiss, neither with a Mac mini nor a Macbook Pro.

I tried the same tracks on a gatorized TC-7520, connected via USB to a Macbook Pro: same results, no audible hiss – except Mark Knopfler’s vocal style :-)

Thanks for checking Werner, appreciated.

I get it both on MacBook Pro (USB) and Mac Pro (both USB and TOSlink).

Would 595's hiss at max volume with lossless, or is my Caiman most likely at fault?

[Stratmangler]

Do your headphones hiss with the volume full up when you have nothing connected to the Caiman ?
Have you not got a disc spinner you can connect to the Caiman via S/PDIF ?
How loud are you talking about here ? I get some hiss on Brothers In Arms with the volume full up, but I would never listen to music on headphones with the volume so high.

[Yoga]

Sent Ross the possible problem via PM save your breaths

Not the solution Andre, exact same issue with MBP and another PC using a top quality PSU. Thanks though.


Do your headphones hiss with the volume full up when you have nothing connected to the Caiman ?
Have you not got a disc spinner you can connect to the Caiman via S/PDIF ?
How loud are you talking about here ? I get some hiss on Brothers In Arms with the volume full up, but I would never listen to music on headphones with the volume so high.

Talking very loud yes.

I do have a DVD player I can test with Caiman, I'll do that tomorrow.

No hiss when there is no source to Caiman, but I get the hiss when switched to Mac when there is nothing playing, but only when the Caiman dial is at 3 o'clock onwards. Thats a very good test actually.

Werner - any hiss with connected source (but nothing playing) with Caiman at near full volume?

[StanleyB]

No hiss when there is no source to Caiman, but I get the hiss when switched to Mac when there is nothing playing, but only when the Caiman dial is at 3 o'clock onwards. Thats a very good test actually.
The HD595 impedance is 50Hz. If you have a look at the Caiman instructions HERE (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/Downloads/Caiman_USB_Manual_Rev_3.pdf) the 0dB point of a 50 Ohms headphone would be around 2PM on the volume control range. Once you pas 2PM on a 50 Ohms headphone the simple headphone circuit of the Caiman will be operating outside its comfort zone.

Of course, if you are accustomed to listening to the HD595 at higher levels than the Caiman headamp can produce you'll need a stand alone headamp. There are quite a few of them about for less than the cost of the Caiman. So you can send the DAC back next week and get a stand alone headamp instead :).

[Werner Berghofer]

Ross,


any hiss with connected source (but nothing playing) with Caiman at near full volume?

no, nothing, just absolute deep, black silence, regardless if Mac mini or Macbook Pro, Toslink or USB, Caiman+ or TC-7520. I use the Caiman PSUs for all DACs.

[Yoga]

The HD595 impedance is 50Hz. If you have a look at the Caiman instructions HERE (http://www.homehifi.co.uk/Downloads/Caiman_USB_Manual_Rev_3.pdf) the 0dB point of a 50 Ohms headphone would be around 2PM on the volume control range. Once you pas 2PM on a 50 Ohms headphone the simple headphone circuit of the Caiman will be operating outside its comfort zone.

Of course, if you are accustomed to listening to the HD595 at higher levels than the Caiman headamp can produce you'll need a stand alone headamp. There are quite a few of them about for less than the cost of the Caiman. So you can send the DAC back next week and get a stand alone headamp instead :).

Thank you Stan, very helpful. I am trying to identify the cause of the hiss. I would rather not return the Caiman, as I plan to upgrade my speakers (currently to Dynaudio MC 15's). My concern is that I spend the extra money and still get hiss.

I'm also looking at HD650's, which are listed at 300. Am I correct in assuming it's a much better match for the Caiman?

Was also looking at AKG 701's, as they can be had for £167 (bargain?). They are rated at 62, which would make me think that Werner would hear noise at a similar level. Is this due to better handling over the 595's?


Ross,

no, nothing, just absolute deep, black silence, regardless if Mac mini or Macbook Pro, Toslink or USB, Caiman+ or TC-7520. I use the Caiman PSUs for all DACs.

Thank you, makes me wonder if the 650's are worth the extra £100.

Again, I really appreciate everyones willingness to help. Thank you.

Update: It's totally silent at maximum volume now, it appears the MBIT+ dithering option in Fidelia caused the hissing at stand still.

It's still there however with both AV40 speakers and 595's at the start of Money for Nothing (Brothers in Arms album) at high levels. Time to test with Denon 2310 and Key IQ5SE's...

[lurcher]

I would use something like Audacity to create a source file of digital black, play that and see if you get hiss. If you do its coming from the system, if not, its the source recording. It may be worth also recording a 0dB (full scale) 1kHz tone, and a -90dB 1kHz tone (lower limit of CD). Those two will give us some idea of just what gain you have in your system.

All analog equipment will generate noise, and that includes the analog out and headphone out of the DAC, but without knowing what volume you are playing it at to hear the noise (with reference to 0dB) we (and you) are just guessing.

If the noise is on a similar level to the -90dB tone, then you have a problem thats worth fixing. If its 20dB or so below that, then you are near the noise floor of 24bit recordings, so you have no problem worth worrying about.

[Werner Berghofer]

Stanley,


you can send the DAC back next week and get a stand alone headamp instead

that’s a generous offer, but I think DACs and headphone amplifiers are used for very different tasks in an audio playback chain. You know I’m a big fan of your DACs, but in my opinion the headphone output they provide will probably not match the performance provided by true stand-alone headphone amplifiers.

In my audio setup both the TC-7520 and Caiman (both gatorized) do sound really exceptional when listening with loudspeakers, but at least for me the headphone output still does not fully satisfy my expectations. I just purchased a Schiit Valhalla (http://schiit.com/products/valhalla/) directly from the manufacturer, since it appears that in its price category this dedicated headphone amp might be a perfect match for my AKG K701 cans.

I hope the unit arrives at the end of this week, and in case someone’s interested and it’s allowed to review gear from the USA in this forum I shall post my impressions.

[snapper]

and in case someone’s interested and it’s allowed to review gear from the USA in this forum I shall post my impressions.


:thumbsup:

Of course you can,and I'm sure there will be a few people interested in your review.

[Yoga]

I would use something like Audacity to create a source file of digital black, play that and see if you get hiss. If you do its coming from the system, if not, its the source recording. It may be worth also recording a 0dB (full scale) 1kHz tone, and a -90dB 1kHz tone (lower limit of CD). Those two will give us some idea of just what gain you have in your system.

All analog equipment will generate noise, and that includes the analog out and headphone out of the DAC, but without knowing what volume you are playing it at to hear the noise (with reference to 0dB) we (and you) are just guessing.

If the noise is on a similar level to the -90dB tone, then you have a problem thats worth fixing. If its 20dB or so below that, then you are near the noise floor of 24bit recordings, so you have no problem worth worrying about.

Good idea, thanks.

I take it I can do that by just adding X mins of silence? Not sure how to do the 0 to -90dB bit.

[lurcher]

I will have to check, You could use the tools to reduce the level of the full scale generated tone.

But this might get you part way there.

http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_dynamic.php

[Yoga]

I will have to check, You could use the tools to reduce the level of the full scale generated tone.

But this might get you part way there.

http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_dynamic.php

Thank you, I'll give this a pop :¬)

[StanleyB]

In my audio setup both the TC-7520 and Caiman (both gatorized) do sound really exceptional when listening with loudspeakers, but at least for me the headphone output still does not fully satisfy my expectations.
The headphone amp on the DAC is not designed to compete against dedicated headamps, even though it is not a bad performer. But you can drop by and listen to the solution on my K701 ;).

[Werner Berghofer]

Stanley,


But you can drop by and listen to the solution on my K701

really would like doing this, but your home isn’t exactly just around the corner from where I live. :-) But at least I use the same equipment as you: two TC-7520, one Caiman and one Caiman+, all with the Gator upgrades and Caiman PSUs, plus a pair of AKG K701 and K271 headphones.

Don’t get me wrong: the performance of your DAC’s built-in headphone amp is pretty good, but I think (and hope) a dedicated headphone amp will offer more punch, dynamics, power and volume without distortion or clipping.