Using Caiman as Preamp with monoblocks?

[Gazjam]

Looking ahead at the amp side of things...

Thinking from a budget side of things Im thinking can get most bang for my buck using what I have: the Camian (with Gator) as a preamp with monoblock amps.

After some sniffing around I want to pick up a couple of the Temple Audio Bantam monoblock amps and hook them up to the Caiman.
All in all I think this should make for a great amp in my system for not silly money.

Any problems with impendance etc using the Caiman this way you think?

Also, my speakers are biwireable and eventually I'd like to bi-amp.
Would running two monoblocks achieve this or would I need to go for four.
If so, would the Caiman manage with 4 monoblock amps, and how the hell would I wire it all up!? :)

If I keep my speakers single wired, could I biamp with just two mono's?

thanks. :scratch:

[The Grand Wazoo]

Gaz,
To answer some of your questions:


Also, my speakers are biwireable and eventually I'd like to bi-amp.
Would running two monoblocks achieve this or would I need to go for four.

You need four monos if your speakers are split two ways.


If so, would the Caiman manage with 4 monoblock amps, and how the hell would I wire it all up!? :)
If the Caiman can manage with a single stereo amp, then I don't see any reason why using 4 monos would be any different.
Wiring up is pretty straightforward (actually less confusing with mono's I reckon - esp. if they're identical amps). You need to split the outputs from the Caiman - get some Y-connectors, or Mark Grant sells bi-amping cables, I think, with one phono plug at one end & split out to 2 cables. I always find it best to label the cables at each end so it's hard to make a mistake if you change things around later. Do things methodically & just deal with one channel at a time.



If I keep my speakers single wired, could I biamp with just two mono's?

Yes!

[John]

It should work quite well, just get rid of those links on the speakers and you should find a lot more control in those speakers you have when you go via this route

[Gazjam]

good stuff, thanks. :)

Only thing left is whether theres any impedance mismatch or excessive power draws with the Caiman.
Or am I worrying too much? :mental:

Good upgrade path methinks..
Get two mono's then later on get another two and run the speakers "proper".

Yeah, that'll work.

[Reid Malenfant]

As far as i'm aware there is a single ended class A output stage on the Caiman output? This should easily drive a load of 1Kohm at a guess to a couple of volts RMS (5mA quiescent will allow a 5 volt swing into 1Kohm class A) so a couple of 47Kohm power amps in parallel making 23.5Kohm should be a walk in the park ;)

However, i think the variable output might use the headphone amp section? This is still an op amp that should have no trouble supplying up to +/- 20mA so again not a problem ;)

[Ali Tait]

So you liked the Bantams then Gary? Must admit they did sound good at yours that day through the OB's.

You'd only need four monos if you want to biamp each speaker. If you leave the links in, you can use two monos, one for each speaker. Maybe try this first with two, and buy another two later if you like how they sound.

[Ali Tait]

P.S. they should work just fine with the Caiman.

[Gazjam]

Reassuring to know Mark, thanks.

I never thought about the variable output on the Caiman being tied into the headphone section?
I've the Gator board, would running the variable output (using the Caiman as a pre in other words) use the headphone opamp section for output then?

Better get an opamp in there then!

[Gazjam]

So you liked the Bantams then Gary? Must admit they did sound good at yours that day through the OB's.

You'd only need four monos if you want to biamp each speaker. If you leave the links in, you can use two monos, one for each speaker. Maybe try this first with two, and buy another two later if you like how they sound.

Cheers Ali, thats the plan.

Yeah, I thought the Bantams sounded great when you brought them over to mine.
I guess the only niggle was having to put them on the high gain setting to get them to play nice with my speakers.
Not that that was a bad thing, still sounded great, better than the Mini-T I was using at the time.
Im thinking this wont be an issue though with the mono's though, with their higher output.

[Reid Malenfant]

I wish i knew more about the thing tbh. I know that both sections are opposite each other on the Gator board & i'm assuming that the class A output section feeds the fixed line level output & the op amp section the headphones when plugged in which will bypass the variable outputs :scratch:

[Gazjam]

maybe Stan could pitch in if he see's this?

[Ali Tait]

Cheers Ali, thats the plan.

Yeah, I thought the Bantams sounded great when you brought them over to mine.
I guess the only niggle was having to put them on the high gain setting to get them to play nice with my speakers.
Not that that was a bad thing, still sounded great, better than the Mini-T I was using at the time.
Im thinking this wont be an issue though with the mono's though, with their higher output.

Yes agreed, the monos should drive your speakers no problem, though then you'll prolly be hankering after some new speakers...

[Gazjam]

I know :)
maybe a diy set of OB's?

one step at a time though...

[Ali Tait]

Well they did sound very good! But yes, as you say, one thing at a time.

[Gazjam]

Still curious about whether the variable out would use the headphone opamp for output...
Stans not about as much as he used to be, so I'll pop him an email on homehifi.co.uk.

[Alex_UK]

Still curious about whether the variable out would use the headphone opamp for output...
Stans not about as much as he used to be, so I'll pop him an email on homehifi.co.uk.

Nope - (the variable output still works with the passive mod which removes the headphone opamp entirely.) :)

[DSJR]

That's good if the Gator driver stage feeds the variable output too (we used the fixed output the other day :))

Like I said at the time, what we need is a proper low-cost (well under £500) DAC/preamp with lots of digital AND line-level inputs but with a Gator style line driver for longer interconnects.....

By the way, having compared the Caiman Gator to a couple of good CD players, I'd suggest that it's well up to the £900 one (Rega Saturn) :), if not quite as subtle and seductive as the £6000 one (Rega Isis Valve), this latter being absolutely lovely IMO...

[Reid Malenfant]

Nope - (the variable output still works with the passive mod which removes the headphone opamp entirely.) :)
Well i'm absolutely fascinated to know what the heck is driving the variable output Alex :scratch: If it's straight off the potentiometer then it's going to have a bit of trouble driving a low impedance load such as a load of power amps in parallel :rolleyes:

Either that or the potentiomer law is going to change quite drastically..

[Alex_UK]

Quite possible I've got it entirely wrong Mark! :D

(The variable output certainly works with the Gator, though.)

[Gazjam]

If your right Alex about the headphone opamp not affecting variable out (coz you've done it!) then that answers my question.

Love to have pitched in here with a definitive response from Stan B, but in his own inimitable cryptic fashion :) he answers...

"What has the headphone amp got to do with the variable output?"

Translating, I'm guessing Nothing, which is backed up by what your saying Alex that the opamp is not connected to variable out.

That answers that one methinks, good to know when I use the Caiman as a preamp it will use the Gator goodness to feed the poweramps.

Full steam ahead then!

[Reid Malenfant]

"What has the headphone amp got to do with the variable output?"
No, it's not as easy as that :eyebrows: Have you noticed that the variable output & headphone amp share the same volume control ;)

Headphones are generally low impedance, less than 600 ohms or so which means they'd definately need some kind of active circuit to drive them & using the caiman to drive a long lead to a power amp (worse still with two per channel) will also require something that can drive some capacitance & thus an active circuit once again.

:scratch:

[Gazjam]

That's good if the Gator driver stage feeds the variable output too (we used the fixed output the other day :))

Like I said at the time, what we need is a proper low-cost (well under £500) DAC/preamp with lots of digital AND line-level inputs but with a Gator style line driver for longer interconnects.....

By the way, having compared the Caiman Gator to a couple of good CD players, I'd suggest that it's well up to the £900 one (Rega Saturn) :), if not quite as subtle and seductive as the £6000 one (Rega Isis Valve), this latter being absolutely lovely IMO...

Seriously Dave?
Good to know. :)

[Gazjam]

No, it's not as easy as that :eyebrows: Have you noticed that the variable output & headphone amp share the same volume control ;)

I know Mark...sometimes you have to guess the answers though. ;)

[Alex_UK]

Seriously Dave?
Good to know. :)

Dave's not wrong - (I was there) - the Isis is a seriously good player, no question (as is the Saturn) but the Caiman with Gator was in no way embarrassed to be in such company (nor the company of the Albarry amps & Harbeth Speakers) - I'm not claiming it betters (or equals) a £5k CD player, but for most of us mere mortals with limited funds, you'd be hard pushed to justify the vast difference in cost. The Caiman certainly punches above it's weight.

[Gazjam]

Works for me, Alex,
a canny scotsman and all that

Good to know I don't need to worry about the source, the Gator/Caiman running two 40w Class D monoblock amps should be a cracking dac/amp system.

Just the speakers to take care of :rolleyes: :)

But thats further down the line.

[Ali Tait]

Yep, should be good mate. You'd have to spend a lot to better it.

[Alex_UK]

Gaz - I mean this with no disrespect to your AE 109's - but you will be BLOWN AWAY by the difference if you make the right choice when replacing them - I had AE Aegis Evo 3's which I thought were great - until I got hold of my vintage Spendors. Trust me, you're only hearing half of what the Caiman/Gator is capable of at the moment. ;)

[DSJR]

It would have been great to have heard the Rega DAC, but maybe next time... :)

[Ali Tait]

Gaz - I mean this with no disrespect to your AE 109's - but you will be BLOWN AWAY by the difference if you make the right choice when replacing them - I had AE Aegis Evo 3's which I thought were great - until I got hold of my vintage Spendors. Trust me, you're only hearing half of what the Caiman/Gator is capable of at the moment. ;)

Well he's heard my Bantam Golds with my OB's in his living room. I think he was impressed..

[Gazjam]

Gaz - I mean this with no disrespect to your AE 109's - but you will be BLOWN AWAY by the difference if you make the right choice when replacing them - I had AE Aegis Evo 3's which I thought were great - until I got hold of my vintage Spendors. Trust me, you're only hearing half of what the Caiman/Gator is capable of at the moment. ;)

I know Alex :), its something I'm looking forward to.
I'm planning on spending a fair old bit on the speakers, so building the system up in affordable steps.

#1
Sb Touch/Caiman/Gator : Impressive digital Source, massive vfm.

#2
Caiman/Gator+Bantam Mono's: Using Gator as Pre, hooked up with great power amps = very good amp: massve vfm?

#3
Finally, replace the AE's with speakers capable of showing what the rest of the kit can do. Ali's diy OBs sounded absolutely awesome, showed me what Im missing.

Cable wise Im sorted and happy to say all that is behind me. Sterling Black Mamba and Mark grant.

As I said..one step at a time. Getting there :)

[Gazjam]

Well he's heard my Bantam Golds with my OB's in his living room. I think he was impressed..

Certainly was Ali :)

The monoblocks are supposed to be a bit special and I've read the Caiman is very good pre-amp, even in comparison to some pricey competition.
The combination should put me in good shape for the future speaker upgrade (or build!)

[Ali Tait]

Like to hear the monos when you get them mate. Yes, the OB's seemed to work well in your room, and really showed the advantages of a full range driver over more conventional speakers I thought.

[Gazjam]

Sure thing Ali. :)