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MCRU
16-04-2011, 18:10
Its powered up, it has an arm fitted, it has a cartridge on and its spinning nicely, slight ammount of noise which I can live with, sounds majestic, pictures to follow.

Ammonite Acoustics
16-04-2011, 18:29
Did you get the SME spacer from Sound Supports, then?

John
16-04-2011, 18:38
Yes the 401 sounds nice It might be worth looking at the idlier
What plinth are you using

MCRU
16-04-2011, 18:45
Did you get the SME spacer from Sound Supports, then?

Yes thanks Hugo, much appreciated good advice from a top bloke, thx again.

MCRU
16-04-2011, 18:47
Yes the 401 sounds nice It might be worth looking at the idlier
What plinth are you using

I needed a quick solution (when I bought it I though I would get it up and running in days, it took 3 months in the end) so I bought an MDF 2 tier plinth which does the job.

The slate audio new design is £1300 BTW, if I was keeping the 401 and did not have my Techie I would be tempted but no.

Pete The Cat
16-04-2011, 19:05
There's a lifetime of modification fun to be had with the 401. For starters if you had a lilac plinth like mine you'd find yourself redecorating your house...

4246

Pete

MCRU
16-04-2011, 19:14
There's a lifetime of modification fun to be had with the 401. For starters if you had a lilac plinth like mine you'd find yourself redecorating your house...

4246

Pete

No shit mate. I have the exact same plinth myself...:lolsign:

Pete The Cat
16-04-2011, 19:22
In-between the Mike Greenwood design and the full remortgage slate plinth are a number of attractive wooden options eg www.layers-of-beauty.co.uk It occurs to me that the thing to watch out for is the ones that, while looking a million dollars, are hollow boxes like 401's used to suffer from in the 70's.

Pete

MCRU
16-04-2011, 19:44
In-between the Mike Greenwood design and the full remortgage slate plinth are a number of attractive wooden options eg www.layers-of-beauty.co.uk (http://www.layers-of-beauty.co.uk) It occurs to me that the thing to watch out for is the ones that, while looking a million dollars, are hollow boxes like 401's used to suffer from in the 70's.

Pete

Russ has made me plinths in the past and is a master of his art, don't know what to do yet with the Garrard, may sell it.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/IMAG0100.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/IMAG0099.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/IMAG0097.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/IMAG0096.jpg

Alex_UK
16-04-2011, 20:06
The funny thing is, I passed on the lilac plinths on ebay several times... then we ended up decorating the living room lilac anyway! :lol:

So, David - I'm guessing you're not enjoying the 401 as much as the Techie? Try it with the Nagaoka before you decide to part with it...

MCRU
16-04-2011, 20:13
The Garrard is nice, the Nagoaka and 309 are not happy with each other I think? I have some work to do on the Garrard first to bring it up to scratch. I will paint the plinth black, secure the oak cone feet on properly and maybe read up on how to oil the bearing as it sounds squeeky.

Pete The Cat
16-04-2011, 20:26
For what it's worth I found that rubber rings in the two grooves around the platter made an immediate difference, then I added chunky sorbothane feet (not sure I noticed too much from those but by then they were stuck on).

I'm now experimenting with headshell weights because I went for a Rega 300. There are at least three of the Russ Collinson plinths that I'm aesthetically in love with (well, all of them actually) but will probably respray the MG MDF first. Oh yes, and get a new mains lead for it...

Pete

Marco
16-04-2011, 20:37
The Garrard is nice, the Nagoaka and 309 are not happy with each other I think?

You're right dude - not a good match by any means. When I recommended you the Nagaoka (at the time you were using a Rega), I didn't know you were gonna get a 309...

The Jelco, however, should love the Naga!

The 401 is a lovely deck, but the problem is you've poured more love into your Techy (maxed it out more), so that's having a significant influence on proceedings.

The Garrard has enormous potential, but will need a not inconsiderable amount of dosh spending on it before the quality of its music making will better what you're getting currently from the Techy.

If you want my advice, dude, I'd sell the 309, keep the Garrard (it's too good to sell), put it into a bigger, better plinth (like those from Loricraft) and fit a 12" arm like an SME M2-12R (it's far better than a 309 will ever be):

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/4/m212rsc.jpg (http://img864.imageshack.us/i/m212rsc.jpg/)

...pop the Oyaide headshell on it, with a DL103, and you'll be laughin' - now *that* would defo worry the Techy! ;)

Marco.

P.S Have you tried the Oyaide mat and weight on the Garrard?

MCRU
16-04-2011, 20:38
For what it's worth I found that rubber rings in the two grooves around the platter made an immediate difference, then I added chunky sorbothane feet (not sure I noticed too much from those but by then they were stuck on).

I'm now experimenting with headshell weights because I went for a Rega 300. There are at least three of the Russ Collinson plinths that I'm aesthetically in love with (well, all of them actually) but will probably respray the MG MDF first. Oh yes, and get a new mains lead for it...

Pete

A nice length of belden cable does the job matey for the mains lead.

MCRU
16-04-2011, 20:45
You're right dude - not a good match by any means. When I recommended you the Nagaoka (at the time you were using a Rega), I didn't know you were gonna get a 309...

The Jelco, however, should love the Naga!

The 401 is a lovely deck, but the problem is you've poured more love into your Techy (maxed it out more), so that's having a significant influence on proceedings.

The Garrard has enormous potential, but will need a not inconsiderable amount of dosh spending on it before the quality of its music making will better what you're getting currently from the Techy.

If you want my advice, dude, I'd sell the 309, keep the Garrard (it's too good to sell), put it into a bigger, better plinth (like those from Loricraft) and fit a 12" arm like an SME M2-12R (it's far better than a 309 will ever be):

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/4/m212rsc.jpg (http://img864.imageshack.us/i/m212rsc.jpg/)

...pop the Oyaide on it, with a DL103, and you'll be laughin' - now *that* would defo worry the Techy! ;)

Marco.

P.S Have you tried the Oyaide mat and weight on the Garrard?

Oh yeah let's do that mister, £1324 for the arm, £1300 for a slate audio plinth, nice one, maybe you do 0% loans????????????? Grrrrhhhhh

Its your fault for having this exceptional forum that I have spent far too much time and money on TT's when I should be doing other things like adding 395 products to my new website that Hamish and the boys have done me which launches on 01.05.11 but pobably won't cos I cannot get the work done cos I am on here.....:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam :

The oyaide mat made the Garrard almost stop rotating!

chris@panteg
16-04-2011, 20:48
A nice length of belden cable does the job matey for the mains lead.

David , I'm currently using that Belden cable on my CA740A , fitted it with a Wattgate and silver MK plug from yourself , job done:)

MCRU
16-04-2011, 20:55
Oh yeah let's do that mister, £1324 for the arm, £1300 for a slate audio plinth, nice one, maybe you do 0% loans????????????? Grrrrhhhhh

Its your fault for having this exceptional forum that I have spent far too much time and money on TT's when I should be doing other things like adding 395 products to my new website that Hamish and the boys have done me which launches on 01.05.11 but pobably won't cos I cannot get the work done cos I am on here.....:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam :

The oyaide mat made the Garrard almost stop rotating!

Marco
You won't believe this but I just googled the arm you suggested and there is one for sale on PFM at a good price which I have responded to, another member is getting me a slate plinth for it. ooooooooo eeeerrrrrrrr

I LOVE THIS FORUM.....:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :)

WHO WANTS TO BUY MY 309 THEN???????:):):):):):):):):):):):):)

Marco
16-04-2011, 20:56
Oh yeah let's do that mister, £1324 for the arm, £1300 for a slate audio plinth, nice one, maybe you do 0% loans????????????? Grrrrhhhhh

Its your fault for having this exceptional forum that I have spent far too much time and money on TT's when I should be doing other things like adding 395 products to my new website that Hamish and the boys have done me which launches on 01.05.11 but pobably won't cos I cannot get the work done cos I am on here.....:steam :


Hehehehe... :lol:

How much is an SME 309 new, or how much did it cost you? The point I'm making is that unfortunately, IMO, you've wasted a lot of money on some bad choices.

If you hadn't spent all that money on the 309 (and bought the Jelco I recommended in the first place, which you've now ended up with anyway ;)), you'd have been able to spend more dosh on yer Garrard......

Not to worry, it's all part of the journey!

Marco.

P.S The Oyaide mat and weight should not stop the Garrard from rotating - there should be plenty of torque! Summat's up there.

Marco
16-04-2011, 20:59
Marco
You won't believe this but I just googled the arm you suggested and there is one for sale on PFM at a good price which I have responded to, another member is getting me a slate plinth for it. ooooooooo eeeerrrrrrrr

I LOVE THIS FORUM.....:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :)

WHO WANTS TO BUY MY 309 THEN???????:):):):):):):):):):):):):)

OMG - what are you like?? :doh: :lol:

Seriously though, if you can pull it off, that'll be a nice move!

Marco.

MCRU
16-04-2011, 21:00
Titter yee not Marco,
I am sure Graham at South West Analogue won't mind if I send the 309 to another owner, another SME will take it's place and it will be fine. Just need to find out how to oil the bearing as it's rather noisy at the moment.

MCRU
16-04-2011, 21:03
Marco,
You could always take the 309 off my hands yourself...

:laugh::rofl::king::bum:

Barry
16-04-2011, 21:08
You're right dude - not a good match by any means. When I recommended you the Nagaoka (at the time you were using a Rega), I didn't know you were gonna get a 309...

The Jelco, however, should love the Naga!

The 401 is a lovely deck, but the problem is you've poured more love into your Techy (maxed it out more), so that's having a significant influence on proceedings.

The Garrard has enormous potential, but will need a not inconsiderable amount of dosh spending on it before the quality of its music making will better what you're getting currently from the Techy.

If you want my advice, dude, I'd sell the 309, keep the Garrard (it's too good to sell), put it into a bigger, better plinth (like those from Loricraft) and fit a 12" arm like an SME M2-12R (it's far better than a 309 will ever be):

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/4/m212rsc.jpg (http://img864.imageshack.us/i/m212rsc.jpg/)

...pop the Oyaide headshell on it, with a DL103, and you'll be laughin' - now *that* would defo worry the Techy! ;)

Marco.

P.S Have you tried the Oyaide mat and weight on the Garrard?

Mmmm! Now that's my next arm or maybe the SME V, or maybe one of the Ortofon's 309?

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/tonearms/tonearm_d230pix.jpg

:scratch:

Marco
16-04-2011, 21:09
Marco,
You could always take the 309 off my hands yourself...


AYE (not)! :eek:

It's a perfectly good arm, really - it's just not a good match for the cartridge you've got (and I suspect not really for your taste in music), or perhaps more importantly, how you like it presented :)

Marco.

Marco
16-04-2011, 21:15
Hi Barry,


Mmmm! Now that's my next arm or maybe the SME V, or maybe one of the Ortofon's 309?

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/tonearms/tonearm_d230pix.jpg


You can join the Ortofon club with me! Personally, I'd avoid the SME V - stick to the M2-12R, dude. It'll be a much better match for the type of cartridges you like :)

Marco.

Beobloke
17-04-2011, 15:07
Just need to find out how to oil the bearing as it's rather noisy at the moment.

Oh dear - noisy bearing and not enough torque to turn an Oytherematey mat - me thinks your 401 is unwell, sir!

By the way, I'm glad I'm not the only one who bought one of Mike Greenwood's 401 plinths in lilac. I'm thinking of commissioning a matching lilac Audio Origami PU7 one day...:)

DSJR
17-04-2011, 15:18
I'd just like to know what happened to "my" 401 - it was a mint one as well :steam: :(

Ammonite Acoustics
17-04-2011, 17:06
At the Bracknell Audio Jumble today, John Caswell had a nice looking 401 in a large, solid and tidy looking plinth, unsold at £580, which I thought was a good price for something already fettled. If I didn't already have too many record players, I would have had it myself. Very helpful chap, too - he gave me some useful tips on restoring my TD124.

David (Brook, that is) - for the price of that SME M2, there are loads of lovely arms that will work with a good range of cartridges and which sound lovely (an Audio Note Arm1 like mine, for instance, or the 10" Audio Origami PU7 also up on PFM). Also, looking at your 401/309 picture, are you sure that you are able to move the arm out far enough to accommodate and correctly align a 12" arm? It does not look like you have, to me.

Marco
17-04-2011, 17:12
Hi Hugo,


Also, looking at your 401/309 picture, are you sure that you are able to move the arm out far enough to accommodate and correctly align a 12" arm? It does not look like you have, to me.

Yep - I totally agree; hence why I mentioned to David about a bigger (better) plinth, such as the Loricraft (or Slate Audio), at the same time I was recommending him the M2-12 :)

Good call on the PU7 and AudioNote Arm1 - both are superb and should also be considered. Once a suitable plinth is fitted, however, the M2-12 should come into its own, portraying the sonic advantages a good 12" arm brings to the party.

Let's face it though, all of them are leagues ahead of an SME 309! ;)

Marco.

johnains
17-04-2011, 17:19
Oh dear - noisy bearing and not enough torque to turn an Oytherematey mat - me thinks your 401 is unwell, sir!

By the way, I'm glad I'm not the only one who bought one of Mike Greenwood's 401 plinths in lilac. I'm thinking of commissioning a matching lilac Audio Origami PU7 one day...:)

This thread reminds me of a 301 I owned many years ago. Not sure if the 401 has the same motor but in order to reduce the torque, which was designed to cope with heavy cartridge/arm combinations, at that time, owners, myself included, connected a 40 watt bulb in series with the motor and this significantly reduced motor noise. John

shane
17-04-2011, 17:33
It may reduce noise, but you're introducing a fault to cover up another one. A Garrard 401 in a solid plinth shouldn't be noisy. If it is, there's something wrong with it.

The light-bulb trick got rid of the noise made by 401s in boom-box plinths like the SME 2000 or Howland-West, but it also got rid of the power and drive that make the 401 sound so addictive, because the torque of the motor is drastically reduced.

MCRU
17-04-2011, 18:01
Thanks guys, I left the 401 running for a few hours (when I first turned it on it was running fast no matter what I did) and now it's on song. The Oyaide mat fits well and I am actually suprised how good it sounds with the relatively cheap Ortofon cartridge, I did not have it sited properly I think that caused it to slow down when the mat and weight was on, it's fine now, the plinth I have was beer money so it got me going, and is actually not that bad, a kind chap on the AOS is sorting me out a slate plinth for it, I don't know if I will get the 12" arm because I refuse to pay the silly money that SME's command, the guy on PFM has sold the arm so back to the drawing board.

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0067.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0076.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0077.jpg

Marco
18-04-2011, 09:10
The other tonearm I fancy for the Techy, perhaps instead of one of the Ortofons (shown earlier), if I go for something new, rather than vintage, is the Ikeda IT-345 CR1 (copper wired version):


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2425/28641858.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/28641858.jpg/)


http://www.2juki.com/index.php?categoryid=2&p164_item=28&p164_action=item

Not bad for $2800, and pretty sexy, TBH! :)

Marco.

DSJR
18-04-2011, 09:38
Can I suggest leaving the 401 mat in place, otherwise the new mat possibly has a potential to "just" sit on the lip at platter-edge?

One supposed tweak to these solid SME's is to either slacken off or remove the bearing-bridge. Perhaps this may be worth a look?

Beobloke
18-04-2011, 12:00
It may reduce noise, but you're introducing a fault to cover up another one. A Garrard 401 in a solid plinth shouldn't be noisy. If it is, there's something wrong with it.

The light-bulb trick got rid of the noise made by 401s in boom-box plinths like the SME 2000 or Howland-West, but it also got rid of the power and drive that make the 401 sound so addictive, because the torque of the motor is drastically reduced.

I couldn't have put it better myself. It's a bit like buying a Ferrari and then fitting a 3000rpm rev limiter!



One supposed tweak to these solid SME's is to either slacken off or remove the bearing-bridge. Perhaps this may be worth a look?

:doh: No, really - don't bother. Trust that a company with SME's level of mechanical engineering expertise know whether the bridge should be there or not!

johnains
18-04-2011, 13:12
I couldn't have put it better myself. It's a bit like buying a Ferrari and then fitting a 3000rpm rev limiter!



The torque required in a record deck is the minimum that can get the platter rotating up to the required speed, maintain that speed accurately and then overcome the pressure of the pickup and drag of the stylus when this is lowered. Any more is likely to cause noise and to cause the idler wheel to slip thereby creating flats on its rim. As I stated before the Garrards were designed to cope with the much heavier pickups and more sluggish arm bearings, available at the time, than to-days ultra lightweight and almost frictionless bearings. It is true that the box plinths of those days tended to amplify the inherent noise but better to have less noise than to rely on a sturdy plinth to suppress it. A deck should add nothing to and take nothing away from the music. Perhaps the addictive sound referred to is the low frequency rumble that is common on this type of deck! The analogy to a Ferrari is completely false as a Ferrari is designed to accelerate rapidly, perhaps with wheelspin, and to achieve very high speeds with the excitement and awareness of its capabilities whereas the ideal deck should disappear into the background with the listener totally unaware of its presence. All I know is that when I added the 40 watt bulb to mine I achieved greater clarity and delicacy in the resulting sound. John

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 13:27
If the motor is noisy then i'd take a good long look at the mains supply :eyebrows: I mean not only does it vary from below 49Hz to over 51Hz which will screw up any syncronous motor in the speed stability department, but it's as distorted as all hell with a load of noise & crap on top just to add insult to injury :rolleyes:

If i was ever going to use any form of turntable with a syncronous motor the first thing i'd do is make sure it's fed from clean mains! I don't mean filtered mains either, i mean regenerated accurate 50Hz mains ;)

Beobloke
18-04-2011, 14:27
i mean regenerated accurate 50Hz mains ;)

I agree, which is why this is precisely what powers my own 301.

MCRU
18-04-2011, 14:59
If the motor is noisy then i'd take a good long look at the mains supply :eyebrows: I mean not only does it vary from below 49Hz to over 51Hz which will screw up any syncronous motor in the speed stability department, but it's as distorted as all hell with a load of noise & crap on top just to add insult to injury :rolleyes:

If i was ever going to use any form of turntable with a syncronous motor the first thing i'd do is make sure it's fed from clean mains! I don't mean filtered mains either, i mean regenerated accurate 50Hz mains ;)

Well I should have the mains supply sorted one would have thought...:lolsign:

shane
18-04-2011, 15:39
The main reason why Garrard and Lenco owners love their turnables and eschew the offerings of the belt drive fraternity is nothing to do with enjoyment of low-frequency rumble. When placed in suitable plinths, these turntables do not rumble unless there is something wrong with them. The sound that they give is typified by rock-steady rhythmic drive, pace and solidity. These are the characteristics that are given to these turntables by their powerful motors being closely coupled to their platters, and which are destroyed by placing light-bulbs in series. Many people who found the light bulb mod gave an improvement also found that the improvement was even more marked if they removed it once their turntables had been installed in decent plinths.

DSJR
18-04-2011, 15:48
Adam, i have never tried removing the bridge on the 309 upwards because I never felt there was anything wrong to start with. however, my recent and ongoing experiences with a Shure V15 IV have shown that "people" don't always want the unvarnished truth in their home stereos, hence bodged Rega arms with a huge hyped-up resonance right in the middle of the midrange being preferred to the standard article, the main resonance of which is in the very upper mid or very low treble and largely innocuous as "people" find the arm inclined to "deadness" rather than "life."


The 401 motor should be totally free to rotate and as long as the bearings are properly oiled and the eddy-current brake ain't rubbing on its controlling magnet, it should run silently. Check the wires around the motor to make sure they're not binding on the springs. The motor is floating freely in it's "cage" isn't it?

As for the 401 main bearing. My first thoughts are to keep it original as the controlled "drag" imposed by the original thrust assembly is just what's required, rather than a super-low friction thrust ball which will wear the spindle tip, especially if silly weights and heavy mats are fitted. The original bearing musn't be over-oiled either, as the thrust assembly then starts to rotate occasionally and this messes the speed up every couple of revolutions or so.

If you want a super-engineered and totally silent record player, there are many other alternatives out there, from the Thorens 125's (mine is utterly silent with no mechanical noise coming through to the Decca at all), to any of the better direct drives out there. So many enthusiasts ditched their lenco's and Garrard's for techie direct drives in the mid 70's it's not true :) Having said that - +1 to Shane's post above :lol:

Marco
18-04-2011, 16:06
Hi Shane,


The sound that they give is typified by rock-steady rhythmic drive, pace and solidity. These are the characteristics that are given to these turntables by their powerful motors being closely coupled to their platters...

Totally agree, although there are downsides to the above, namely how that big lump of ferrous metal (the motor), by being so close to the platter, adversely interferes with the high-frequency response of moving-coil cartridges ;)

That's also one of the reasons why removing the (lump of metal) stock PSU from underneath the platter of the Techy, and fitting a quality off-board one, reaps significant sonic rewards.

Marco (a Garrard lover - but D/Ds, done well, are his preference).

shane
18-04-2011, 16:36
Very true, although I do also wonder about the effect that the considerable LF rotating magnetic fields generated by the drive coils of a powerful DD motor can have on a low output MC cartridge.

Which reminds me...

Dave, what cartridge do you use on your 701? As you know, I'm using a 701 motor and platter mounted on a lump of slate, with a Mayware Formula 4 and Denon 304, and I've noticed an occasional tendency for the 304 to bottom out at the end of an LP if I'm running it towards the heavy end of it's tracking weight range. The only reason I can think of is that the cart is being attracted towards the motor. Have you ever noticed anything similar?

Marco
18-04-2011, 16:46
Very true, although I do also wonder about the effect that the considerable LF rotating magnetic fields generated by the drive coils of a powerful DD motor can have on a low output MC cartridge.


Yup, so do I, hence why I had a copper plate annealed to the surface of my MN platter (which Mike now refers to as his 'Copper Composite platter'), to act as a form of 'Mu-metal shield', in order to nullify any adverse effect of stray eddy currents and/or magnetic fields, as far as possible...

However, with these things, it's simply a case of the overall benefits outweighing the (minimal) negatives.

I'd still rather have a Garrard or a Techy, that supposedly 'suffer' from the above issues, than a T/T driven by a rubber band and 'Fisher Price' motor, which is fatally flawed from the beginning, no matter how much 'lipstick' one applies! ;)

Marco.

Barry
18-04-2011, 17:12
If the motor is noisy then i'd take a good long look at the mains supply :eyebrows: I mean not only does it vary from below 49Hz to over 51Hz which will screw up any syncronous motor in the speed stability department, but it's as distorted as all hell with a load of noise & crap on top just to add insult to injury :rolleyes:

If i was ever going to use any form of turntable with a syncronous motor the first thing i'd do is make sure it's fed from clean mains! I don't mean filtered mains either, i mean regenerated accurate 50Hz mains ;)

I think we need to get things in perspective here. By law the UK mains frequency has to be within 0.4Hz of 50Hz. Normally it is within 0.2Hz. The statutory limit is thus a variation of +/- 0.8%.

A 1% change corresponds to 1/6 of a semitone. A constant pitch error of 1/6 semitone cannot be heard. An instantaneous change can be heard. The jnd (just noticable difference) depends on the pitch itself. Within the octave 1000 - 2000Hz, the jnd is 1/20 semitone (or 3.6Hz). Over the octave 62 -125Hz, the jnd is 0.4 semitone (or 2Hz).

I think you are worrying unecessarily.

Regards

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 17:27
Barry, i understand what you are saying :) But there is a man on here that can hear the pitch wavering of a belt drive (so he says) & this isn't really so much different.

What i was attempting to get accross though was the clean mains feeding the motor more that the stability.

I think if you were to put the same arguement & say it was all hunky dory that a quartz lock DD tt did the same you'd hear a lot of swearing :eyebrows:

E2A:- have fun (http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm) :)

Marco
18-04-2011, 17:39
Hi Mark,


But there is a man on here that can hear the pitch wavering of a belt drive (so he says) & this isn't really so much different.


If you're referring to me, then I most certainly can - and I'm not alone! ;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 17:40
Ooooh, just the man i was refering to :lolsign:

Marco
18-04-2011, 17:48
Lol! TBH, anyone with half decent hearing, and an appreciation of music, would hear the effect.

All you'd have to do is play a recording of solo piano on, say, a Rega Planar 3, and on an SP10, and then with the Rega, listen to how the pitch of notes wavers as they decay and fade, compared to the rock-solid stability of the presentation on the SP10.

'Golden ears' aren't exactly required!

I understand where Barry’s coming from, but as usual in audio, measurements don’t always tell the full story... ;)

Marco.

shane
18-04-2011, 18:09
I think we need to get things in perspective here. By law the UK mains frequency has to be within 0.4Hz of 50Hz. Normally it is within 0.2Hz. The statutory limit is thus a variation of +/- 0.8%.

A 1% change corresponds to 1/6 of a semitone. A constant pitch error of 1/6 semitone cannot be heard. An instantaneous change can be heard. The jnd (just noticable difference) depends on the pitch itself. Within the octave 1000 - 2000Hz, the jnd is 1/20 semitone (or 3.6Hz). Over the octave 62 -125Hz, the jnd is 0.4 semitone (or 2Hz).

I think you are worrying unecessarily.

Regards

The exact frequency of the mains isn't the issue. As you say, unless you have a really bad case of perfect pitch, 1% isn't going to be detectable.

What's more to the point is the waveform. Put a 'scope across the mains in my house and you're not going to see a sine wave. More likely you'll see a pretty good example of a triangle waveform, often with a bit of clipping on the top and some hefty spikes around the zero point. Look closer and there's vast amounts of hash from dimmers, cheap crap SMPSs and God knows what else. Feed that little lot into a motor and it'll vibrate like a hive of bees. That's what your Valhallas, TPSs, Armageddons and so on get rid of. It afflicts all types of AC motor, but of course the closer coupling of an idler motor to it's platter means that more of that vibration gets through to the record and stylus. The trick is to clean up the rubbish without losing the power. Easy enough with a piddly little 2W Premotec synchronous jobbie. Not so easy with a couple of pounds of Garrard 20W field coils.

Marco
18-04-2011, 18:22
Good post, Shane.


Look closer and there's vast amounts of hash from dimmers, cheap crap SMPSs and God knows what else.

Which is precisely why I have nothing creating such interference in my listening room, and certainly not connected in-line with the dedicated mains spur suppling my system.

Marco.

Barry
18-04-2011, 18:26
The exact frequency of the mains isn't the issue. As you say, unless you have a really bad case of perfect pitch, 1% isn't going to be detectable.

What's more to the point is the waveform. Put a 'scope across the mains in my house and you're not going to see a sine wave. More likely you'll see a pretty good example of a triangle waveform, often with a bit of clipping on the top and some hefty spikes around the zero point. Look closer and there's vast amounts of hash from dimmers, cheap crap SMPSs and God knows what else. Feed that little lot into a motor and it'll vibrate like a hive of bees. That's what your Valhallas, TPSs, Armageddons and so on get rid of. It afflicts all types of AC motor, but of course the closer coupling of an idler motor to it's platter means that more of that vibration gets through to the record and stylus. The trick is to clean up the rubbish without losing the power. Easy enough with a piddly little 2W Premotec synchronous jobbie. Not so easy with a couple of pounds of Garrard 20W field coils.

Nor the Thorens 124 or Goldring G99, which draw a similar power.

Point taken concerning the waveform shape, but I would have thought that if the platter is massive enough, the sheer inertia would absorb all that vibration.

Regards

MCRU
18-04-2011, 18:34
oooo errrr not another technical thread developing...yawn

shane
18-04-2011, 18:35
I would have thought that if the platter is massive enough, the sheer inertia would absorb all that vibration.

Regards

You'd have thought so, but don't forget that the prime merchants of these waveform cleaning circuits are Linn, who have the aforementioned piddly little motor coupled to a platter a good deal heavier than the Garrard's through a couple of feet of elastic band, and they still find it makes a big difference.



Sorry David, but I guess you can't escape the fact that hifi can be a bit technical.

I'll shut up now.

Maybe...

MCRU
18-04-2011, 19:12
Carry on mate, the 401 is far from perfect at the moment, it is quite loud although I just realised I have not put the bolts onto the nuts that fasten it to the plinth...dohhhhh wot a plonker:steam:

DSJR
18-04-2011, 19:15
Very true, although I do also wonder about the effect that the considerable LF rotating magnetic fields generated by the drive coils of a powerful DD motor can have on a low output MC cartridge.

Which reminds me...

Dave, what cartridge do you use on your 701? As you know, I'm using a 701 motor and platter mounted on a lump of slate, with a Mayware Formula 4 and Denon 304, and I've noticed an occasional tendency for the 304 to bottom out at the end of an LP if I'm running it towards the heavy end of it's tracking weight range. The only reason I can think of is that the cart is being attracted towards the motor. Have you ever noticed anything similar?

Can't say I have guv'nor. I've ran a Stilton OC9, an Ortofon MC30 Super and a Supex 900E with no issues, although the steel top plate of the stock 701 would dominate I think. Currently have an Ortofon M25FL Super installed, which suits the deck much better to be honest.

I reckon the Mazak (or similar) 701 platter should shield well - and Marco, the 401 motor is VERY well shielded in terms of EMI I believe.

Marco
18-04-2011, 19:39
and Marco, the 401 motor is VERY well shielded in terms of EMI I believe.


How exactly? :)

And anyway, it's not the motor that needs shielding - it's the cartridge above it! ;)

Marco.

MCRU
18-04-2011, 19:51
I don't think anyone had heard of EMI in the 1950's had they, apart from the record label of course...

shane
18-04-2011, 20:15
How exactly? :)

And anyway, it's not the motor that needs shielding - it's the cartridge above it! ;)

Marco.

By encasing it in a hefty great lump of cast iron!

If the motor is the source o the interference, it's better to screen the source rather than the cartridge. That way, it won't be picked up by the wiring either.

See here: http://homepage.mac.com/beechwoods/AOS/library/Garrard%20401%20article%20(hi%20res).pdf .

Barry
18-04-2011, 20:18
How exactly? :)

And anyway, it's not the motor that needs shielding - it's the cartridge above it! ;)

Marco.

The motor housing is made of cast iron.

The motor in any deck should be positioned so that the cartridge, regardless of variety, can never be above it.

Regards

Marco
18-04-2011, 20:38
By encasing it in a hefty great lump of cast iron!

If the motor is the source o the interference, it's better to screen the source rather than the cartridge. That way, it won't be picked up by the wiring either.


Agreed. But cast iron is ferrous, is it not, and therefore magnetic? Not ideal. What you want is no ferrous metals whatsoever anywhere near the operating area of the cartridge - and that means underneath it, as well as anywhere else.

I've no doubt that encasing the motor in cast iron shields the cartridge from interference in some ways, but in doing so, the "great lump of cast iron" itself becomes a problem.....! ;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 20:45
Marco, the only way you can cut down on magnetic interference is surround whatever is generating the magnetic field with a ferrous metal ;) Non ferrous metals will allow the magnetic field straight through like the shield isn't even there :eyebrows:

I'm sure if you go looking you'll find a certain article on wikipedia where 5 layers of mu metal were used to cut down on the earths magnetic field to test various stuff.

:cool:

DSJR
18-04-2011, 20:50
I give up...

Tell you what, why not sell the 401 to someone who'll appreciate it as it was designed and replace it with a Japanese direct drive as I remember many Garrard owners did in the 70's. A Techie 12**mk2 will work straight from the box, will probably sound better than what you have already (SME be damned, it's "only" a 2M red you're using right now) and can be tuned to your hearts content in easy steps.

There! Sorted :lolsign:

Pete The Cat
18-04-2011, 20:50
Carry on mate, the 401 is far from perfect at the moment, it is quite loud although I just realised I have not put the bolts onto the nuts that fasten it to the plinth...dohhhhh wot a plonker:steam:

While we're at it, although one might think that super-tight is good, I've had better results from just keeping them hand tight.

I'll go before anyone mentions rubber washers.

Pete

Marco
18-04-2011, 20:50
Marco, the only way you can cut down on magnetic interference is surround whatever is generating the magnetic field with a ferrous metal Non ferrous metals will allow the magnetic field straight through like the shield isn't even there...


Yes, I know that, Mark, but in solving one problem, you're simply creating another (albeit arguably a lesser one). That's my point. Therefore, the cast iron lump is only partly solving the original problem.

Cast iron is not a hi-fi friendly material because it is ferrous. How much equipment these days do you see surrounded in casings made from ferrous metals?

There's a reason for that, which is the same as why having a lump of cast iron underneath a T/T platter, even if it is doing more good than harm, isn't ideal ;)

Marco.

DSJR
18-04-2011, 20:52
Yes, I know that, Mark, but in solving one problem, you're simply creating another (albeit arguably a lesser one). That's my argument. Therefore, the cast iron lump is only partly solving the original problem.

Cast iron is not a hi-fi friendly material because it is ferrous. How much equipment these days do you see surrouded in casing made from ferrous metals?

There's a reason for that, which is the same as why having a lump of cast iron underneath a T/T platter, even if it is doing more good than harm, isn't ideal ;)

Marco.

Me lips is sealed :eek:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0561-1.jpg

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 20:55
I think you are getting 'Magnetic screening" mixed up with "RF (radio frequency) screening" Marco. Even i sometimes have to think about it quite a bit chap.

Marco
18-04-2011, 20:57
It doesn't matter the label you give it, dude - it's all unwanted interference of one sort or the other :)

I've been through all this with my Mana supports, going from (ferrous) angle-iron to (non-ferrous) non-magnetic stainless steel. The sonic benefits of removing magnetic interation in equipment aren't subtle!

Therefore, however you cut it, having a big lump of cast iron under the platter of your T/T isn't sonically ideal. If it didn't matter, then there wouldn't be any sonic benefit in removing the (ferrous) stock PSU from underneath the platter of the Techy, would there? ;)

I've tried it, and heard the sonic benefits, so clearly it does matter. It's the same with that big lump of cast iron in the Garrard, even though it is there for a reason.

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 21:12
The ferrous metal lump around the 401 motor keeps the magnetic field given off by the motor contained inside the ferrous metal lump :eyebrows:

It's not perfect, but it certainly helps...

I'm not a scientist so i can't explain it as it should be (& perhaps you wouldn't understand it just as much as myself :lol:), but there is a huge difference between EMI & RFI & a magnetic field.

RFI can be screened with any metal (i think), EMI can be regarded as just about the same, but a magnetic field needs a ferrous metal in between it & whatever to break the magnetic field as it'll go straight through any non ferrous metal ;)

Why do you think that top quality MC transformers are screened with mumetal? To cut out everything including magnetic interference :)

Marco
18-04-2011, 21:20
Jeez, we're going round in bloody circles here.... :doh:

I'm not arguing this point at all:


The ferrous metal lump around the 401 motor keeps the magnetic field given off by the motor contained inside the ferrous metal lump...


Indeed! Totally agree.


It's not perfect, but it certainly helps...


Double indeed!! Perfect it most certainly is not. It's a compromise.

Personally, I'd want the lump of cast iron there to shield the cartridge from interference from the motor, and also a copper (or Mu-metal) mat on the platter to shield the cartridge from magnetic interference caused by the lump of cast iron! ;)

Do we agree on that now, so I can go back to listening to music? :lol:

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 21:24
Double indeed!! Perfect it most certainly is not. It's a compromise.

Do we agree on that now? :lol:

Marco.
Of course it is a compromise, but so is everything else at the end of the day ;)

Doesn't matter which way you do it with whatever, unless you have a few £billion it'll all be a compromise :eyebrows:

Marco
18-04-2011, 21:29
Indeed, but the whole point I've been making since the beginning of this debate (it seems so long ago now - lol!) is that there are sonic benefits to be had by fitting some form of Mu-metal or copper mat to the platter of a Garrard 301 or 401, precisely because of the existence of the many ferrous metals living underneath, in the motor and elsewhere.

There - at last.... Breathe in, and out, and relax....

And on that note, I'm off to spin some tunes on the Copper Composite Platter of my Techy! :lol: ;)

Marco.

Barry
18-04-2011, 21:40
Agreed. But cast iron is ferrous, is it not, and therefore magnetic? Not ideal. What you want is no ferrous metals whatsoever anywhere near the operating area of the cartridge - and that means underneath it, as well as anywhere else.

I've no doubt that encasing the motor in cast iron shields the cartridge from interference in some ways, but in doing so, the "great lump of cast iron" itself becomes a problem.....! ;)

Marco.

Iron is not magnetic in itself. It is what is known as permeable: acts as 'conductor' of magnetic flux, and thus is used to shield magnetic fields.

Iron, or any other ferrous material is no more magnetic, than copper, say, is electric.

You don't want any ferrous material under the path of the pickup arm and cartridge, otherwise the attraction of the magnets in the cartridge will affect the tracking force.

Reid Malenfant
18-04-2011, 21:42
:lolsign: No contest, i fully agree :)

I'm not sure i can remember any mat being mentioned though previously as i'd have thought i'd have been thinking about it :scratch: No-one's perfect, least of all me :doh:

If you did then ignore me, but not what i said about magnetic interference ;)

Time to chill :lolsign:

Barry
18-04-2011, 21:47
You'd have thought so, but don't forget that the prime merchants of these waveform cleaning circuits are Linn, who have the aforementioned piddly little motor coupled to a platter a good deal heavier than the Garrard's through a couple of feet of elastic band, and they still find it makes a big difference.



Sorry David, but I guess you can't escape the fact that hifi can be a bit technical.

I'll shut up now.

Maybe...

So that we can all play the game "my platter's heavier than yours :ner:", here are the platter weights for some idler drive turntables:

Garrard 401 : 2.7Kg
Goldring G99: 3.2Kg
EMT 930 : 3.2Kg
Linn LP12: 3.7Kg
Thorens 124/II: 3.6Kg

I too will shut up now.

Marco
18-04-2011, 21:52
Agreed, Mark :)

Hi Barry,


Iron is not magnetic in itself. It is what is known as permeable: acts as 'conductor' of magnetic flux, and thus is used to shield magnetic fields.

Iron, or any other ferrous material is no more magnetic, than copper, say, is electric.


Regardless, ferrous metals adversely affect the performance of ANY equipment, cartridges or otherwise. I've heard the effect, mate, and the sonic benefits of its removal.

Think of why companies, such as DNM, go to great lengths and expense to use acrylic for their equipment cases, and why others, such as Naim (and many others), use non-magnetic stainless steel....

This article makes interesting reading: http://www.dnm.co.uk/materials.html

I particularly liked the innovative thinking expressed here:


To reduce the influence of magnetic interaction caused by such a large expanse of metal, we space the output transistors and regulators away from the heatsink, using aluminium oxide blocks. This material has no magnetic properties but good thermal conductivity.


Similarly, the "cast iron lump" we were discussing, is a large expanse of metal.... Think about it ;)

Marco.

P.S I suspect that my Mike New platter is considerably heavier than all of those listed above, although I haven't weighed it. I can't remember how heavy Mike said it was... :scratch:

Clive
18-04-2011, 22:19
So that we can all play the game "my platter's heavier than yours :ner:", here are the platter weights for some idler drive turntables:

Garrard 401 : 2.7Kg
Goldring G99: 3.2Kg
EMT 930 : 3.2Kg
Linn LP12: 3.7Kg
Thorens 124/II: 3.6Kg

I too will shut up now.
Salvation: 9kg (about the same as Mike New's).

Salvation is not an idler, it's a rim drive.

Marco
18-04-2011, 22:23
Yes, if memory serves me right, the MN platter is around that weight, Clive :)

Marco.

Barry
18-04-2011, 22:27
Salvation: 9kg (about the same as Mike New's).

Salvation is not an idler, it's a rim drive.

9Kg! :eek: Looks like you win! :)

Marco
18-04-2011, 22:28
Lol, and me! :eyebrows:

Did you read the link I posted to that article by DNM?

Marco.

Stratmangler
18-04-2011, 22:33
Poofs platters, the lot of 'em ;)
The platter on the Blue Pearl Audio Jem TT was a two man lift :eyebrows:

Marco
18-04-2011, 22:37
Aye, just like your 'middle leg' is, eh? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Stratmangler
18-04-2011, 22:39
Aye, just like your 'middle leg' is, eh? :eyebrows:

Marco.

I wish :rolleyes:
Still, it's big enough to fill a pram :eyebrows:

DSJR
19-04-2011, 09:59
And the great sounding Voyd and PT decks used featherweight acrylic of some sort [edit - see below],because it better matches the vinyl in resonance characteristics..

You chaps are so funny :lol:

chris@panteg
19-04-2011, 11:08
And the great sounding Voyd and PT decks used featherweight acrylic of some sort,because it better matches the vinyl in resonance characteristics..

You chaps are so funny :lol:

Dave , on my .5 Voyd , the platter was made from Lexan , an advanced polycarbonate material , in fact if you have a car built from around 1997-8 onwards the headlight lenses are most likely made from Lexan .

Its energy dissipation is extraordinary , i used to work for Hella , and we once tried to destroy a Jaguar S type lens with a big lump hammer , we failed miserably :eek: , it took about 4 diamond tipped blades to cut through it .

Incredible material and its just fancy plastic , i think it made a crucial difference to the Voyd TT sound , giving more air and a lovely tonal balance .

chris@panteg
19-04-2011, 11:13
Just a thought , now if someone could come up with a Lexan mat for the Techy , i would certainly give it a try , could it work ?

MCRU
19-04-2011, 12:03
Just a thought , now if someone could come up with a Lexan mat for the Techy , i would certainly give it a try , could it work ?

OMG we are all obsessed to the point of lunacy. How many mats do we need, how many platters and bearings and arms and carts. I need to get a grip on reality and start listening to some records instead of messing about constantly, anyone else feel in the same boat? :)

IMHO there are only 2 options for the Techie in this particular area:-

MN Platter with Blue Horizon Mat
Stock Platter with Oyaide Mat and Weight (any weight 300g+ will do)

I don't have any Oyaide mats to loan out for obvious reasons but I do have some BH ones if anyone wants to trial one?

chris@panteg
19-04-2011, 21:21
OMG we are all obsessed to the point of lunacy. How many mats do we need, how many platters and bearings and arms and carts. I need to get a grip on reality and start listening to some records instead of messing about constantly, anyone else feel in the same boat? :)

IMHO there are only 2 options for the Techie in this particular area:-

MN Platter with Blue Horizon Mat
Stock Platter with Oyaide Mat and Weight (any weight 300g+ will do)

I don't have any Oyaide mats to loan out for obvious reasons but I do have some BH ones if anyone wants to trial one?

:sofa:

Well pardon me all over the place :rolleyes:

Actually David there is a 3rd way :)

MCRU
19-04-2011, 21:27
I tried the achromat, did not work for me.

Stratmangler
19-04-2011, 21:38
:sofa:

Well pardon me all over the place :rolleyes:

Actually David there is a 3rd way :)

Stock mat, VA bearing ?

chris@panteg
19-04-2011, 22:04
Stock mat, VA bearing ?

Hi Chris

It is the Vantage Audio solution i was thinking of , but its tied in with the platter modification that Steve is getting done at the moment , but this is about 401/309 , so no more thread drift or David will throw a wobbly :)

Stratmangler
19-04-2011, 22:05
Hi Chris

It is the Vantage Audio solution i was thinking of , but its tied in with the platter modification that Steve is getting done at the moment , but this is about 401/309 , so no more thread drift or David will throw a wobbly :)

I'm muddling things up with Techie mods - my error :doh:

Pete The Cat
21-04-2011, 20:53
A nice length of belden cable does the job matey for the mains lead.

Just waiting for the end of the month at a website near you. Glad to see Belden is dark, Black Rhodium Fusion just wouldn't go with the grey 401 and a lilac plinth :)

Pete

MCRU
21-04-2011, 20:59
The black rhodium is ok if you put a lilac sleeve over it, what a good idea methinks?

Vantage audio bearing, my techie ia bearingless at the moment, guess who has it?

DSJR
21-04-2011, 21:16
You are aware of the BR dealer margins? Humungous from memory. A mark grant would do you nicely sir :)

MCRU
21-04-2011, 22:09
You are aware of the BR dealer margins? Humungous from memory. A mark grant would do you nicely sir :)

Black Rhodium Fusion sells for £25 per metre, what would you class as a humungous margin then?

Have you heard said cable against Marks? If not then you are in no position to comment are you? :)

I am actually quite surprised at your post. :ner:

MartinT
21-04-2011, 22:31
If i was ever going to use any form of turntable with a syncronous motor the first thing i'd do is make sure it's fed from clean mains! I don't mean filtered mains either, i mean regenerated accurate 50Hz mains ;)

Spot on. In fact, why not power the whole system this way? I do!

MartinT
21-04-2011, 22:44
IMHO there are only 2 options for the Techie in this particular area:-

MN Platter with Blue Horizon Mat
Stock Platter with Oyaide Mat and Weight (any weight 300g+ will do)

Nope - MN Platter with Achromat here.

MCRU
22-04-2011, 13:52
Nope - MN Platter with Achromat here.

Have you tried the BH mat young man? :)

MartinT
22-04-2011, 15:29
Have you tried the BH mat young man? :)

Indirectly, David. I heard it on Marco's deck (my Achromat is goo'd to the platter with Vaseline). Not a lot in it, I would say.

Marco
22-04-2011, 16:56
Have you tried the BH mat young man? :)

Young man? Martin will love that - you've just guaranteed his business for life! :lol: ;)

Marco.

MartinT
22-04-2011, 18:22
Young man? Martin will love that

Heh, heh, I'm as young as the woman I feel ;)

DSJR
22-04-2011, 18:36
Black Rhodium Fusion sells for £25 per metre, what would you class as a humungous margin then?

Have you heard said cable against Marks? If not then you are in no position to comment are you? :)

I am actually quite surprised at your post. :ner:

£25 per metre means a true cost of around a fiver.. Do catch up dear boy :)

MCRU
28-04-2011, 20:30
£25 per metre means a true cost of around a fiver.. Do catch up dear boy :)

You are way out kind sir, extruded by the mile more like 50p....:lolsign:

DSJR
29-04-2011, 12:32
Oh alright then :lol:

I'm just coming to terms with a £200+ headshell, which is well out of my league at present :( A bit much for an OM Pro methinks, although the Decca might like it one day ;)