An idea for improving the Techie's stock tonearm [Archive]

Epicurus

15-04-2011, 05:16

In a previous post of mine, I mentioned the play of the stock tonearm's base/VTA adjustment ring assembly; remembering how the Jelco SA-750D had received some criticism because of the tolerances in its collar, I've come up with an idea that would perhaps (hopefully) inspire someone who has the engineering/manufacturing capacity to produce improved parts for us who want to stick with the stock arm, but want to take it as far as it can go.

I understand that the VTA adjustment on the stock arm should work much like the focusing ring on a camera's lens. Now, I'm sure a good deal of you guys are familiar with manual focus lenses - the good ones have zero play in their focusing rings (e.g. the ones from Zeiss, Nikon, Leica etc). I think it would be a great idea if someone reproduced "blueprinted" versions of the relevant parts, with much tighter tolerances and even some modifications that would remove the "play" altogether.

Let's face it; the Techie's stock tonearm can be adjusted very easily - its VTA can even be adjusted on-the-fly if one is relatively careful. But the play in the VTA adjustment mechanism grates. If someone made a new, re-engineered system to counter this... I know I'd buy the necessary parts and install them without a thought.

So... Does anyone want to step up to the plate?

DSJR

15-04-2011, 08:35

I don't think it'll be worthwhile, as the drag from a typical non moving-coil cartridge will be minimal and the silicon damping fluid will more than damp out any rattle. The stock arm has other issues with mass and resonance in the pipe and headshell joint which are far more critical in the wider scheme of things. the kind of cartridges which would upset the latter would never be used with this arm anyway and, excellent as the Funk mod to the arm pipe is, it's hellishly expensive sadly.

Nah, best get a Jelco 750 for under £400 inc cable and get an improvement all over :)

colinB

15-04-2011, 15:35

I had a chat with Johnny from Audio Origami on his forum and he thought the stock arm was good. Just needed a bit of foam in it.

DSJR

15-04-2011, 19:28

The stock arm is PERFECT for a good mm type cartridge and the more tolerant MC types, especially when a more solid headshell is used - remember, Marco was quite happy until he "discovered" the Jelco 750, which is far better suited to mc types in terms of mass and rigidity and offers some damping too at the pivots.

By all means, get some foam in the stock arm, fit a Pickering XV15/757S, Stanton 681EEEmk3, or AT120E/440MLa to taste, and you'll have an excellent value turntable "system." The bearings look to be good as long as they've not been got-at or abused and I'm sure the stock cables aren't that bad either and easy to upgrade for not much if you can solder.

chris@panteg

15-04-2011, 20:19

Hi Dave

How about the stock arm , tweeked by J7 and then get either the EPC100 mk3 or the EPC205mk3 , this could be a slice of nirvana maybe ?

The only snag is the EPC100 is going for silly money , but if its as people say .

Darren

15-04-2011, 20:21

I wonder if we could do our own version of the funk Mod. New carbon fibre armtube from a carbon arrow, glued headshell and a decent rewire.
Surely it's not beyond us?

Epicurus

15-04-2011, 21:38

Actually guys, what I had in mind was a re-engineering of the VTA adjustment system. J7's rewire and foam filling will certainly improve things a lot, but if we stabilize the arm by removing the "play", I'm sure it can become a lot better.

synsei

17-04-2011, 13:59

The thing is Konstantinos, by the time the parts have been engineered, manufactured and then put on the market, they will be priced accordingly if they are any good. Factor in the cost of the fettling by J7 and you will be getting perilously close to the cost of a Jelco 750, and I suspect the Jelco will still blow the modded Technics arm into the weeds, sry... :eyebrows:

DSJR

17-04-2011, 15:05

synsei

17-04-2011, 17:02

Wot I wuz trying to say sadly.....

The EPC205mkIII is one I'd love to revisit with the knowledge of today. Maybe not Marco's cuppa (don't read anything into that please), but an utterly neutral, clean tracking and temperature insensitive magnetic that, IMO, came to UK shores at totally the wrong time, when we needed dull-as-ditchwater cartridges to counteract screaming speakers with little real bass - I'm speaking for myself here, as at the time I found the Shure V15III, Nagaoka MP11 and the 205mkIII painfully bright in balance. I don't at all these days, and the 205 in series 3 form was so well loved by those with more traditional systems - even Martin Colloms had to temper his enthusiasm a bit, as the expensive cachet-clad Koetsu's were his reviewing and social standing bread and butter future at the time methinks ;)

That is so true Dave. Last year I ran across an old MP11 as I was rummaging through some boxes in the garage. I think I last used it around 1986 and for reasons now lost to the mists of time, it lasted about 3 days in the TT I was using back then. For curiosities sake I fitted it to the LVX+ on my TD316 and sat back expecting a little bit of magic. What a disaster!!! Even though the stylus was in mint condition the resulting sound was; well, to quote your good self, as 'dull-as-ditchwater'. How times change eh? ;)

DSJR

17-04-2011, 19:03

Hmm, I found the MP11 too bright back then... They may be sensitive to loading and this may be the reason for your dullness. Alex's MP15 certainly isn't dull, but neither is it shrill and "etched" in the treble..

chris@panteg

17-04-2011, 22:07

synsei

17-04-2011, 23:44

Dave

My M8 John used an MP11 boron back in the late 80's to early 90's and he loved it , and i value and trust his judgement , he used it with the Moth arm on his Voyd .

Phono stage was the series 800 pre at the time .

Ah, mine wasn't a Boron, it had a bog standard alu cantilever. That may explain why it sounded a bit dull then, or mebe it just didn't suit the LVX+, who knows?. Whatever, it sounded rubbish compared to the AT95e, which shocked me a bit :eyebrows:

chris@panteg

17-04-2011, 23:55

Yes the Boron was the one to have :) in fact anytime i hear a cart with a Boron cantilever ! I'm usually hooked , my P22/Jico is a Boron .

DSJR

18-04-2011, 10:31

chris@panteg

18-04-2011, 11:34

I'd better look at my scrap-stash up in the loft. I'm sure there's an MP11 in there with unkown stylus condidion..

P.S. I have two yellow-stylus K9 cartridges. Now, I sold loads of these, as did most Linn dealers, and although one has collapsed (common on early ones and all K18mk1's too), the other has a fair "vital" diamond still yet sounds much inferior to the supposedly inferior tipped AT120E IMO - very scrappy and not too distinct.

Dave , i had a K9 with the grey stylus back in 1989 , used it with an Ekos but before that the Ittok , i found it bright and fizzy but the Ekos tamed it somewhat , certainly not a boring cartridge .

Epicurus

21-04-2011, 04:19

chris@panteg

21-04-2011, 09:28

Hi Konstantinos

Sorry for the thread drift , i could ask Richard (Vantage Audio) if you like , i know he reworks and service's Techy arm's , and was lucky enough to see the results as he showed me a restored EPA100 , he restored recently along with an LO7D .

Marco

21-04-2011, 09:38

Do you guys know anyone who's capable of re-engineering (or blueprinting) the stock arm's base and VTA adjustment mechanism in order to remove the unwanted play? I know I'd buy such an upgrade kit.

You could try Johnny from Audio Origami:

http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/

He designs his own tonearms from scratch, as well as rebuilding others. What J7 doesn't know about modifying pick-up arms, isn't worth knowing! ;)

Marco.

YNWaN

21-04-2011, 10:57

The stock arm has other issues with mass and resonance in the pipe and headshell joint which are far more critical in the wider scheme of things.

Nah, best get a Jelco 750 for under £400 inc cable and get an improvement all over :)

Why would such issues not also exist in the Jelco?

chris@panteg

21-04-2011, 11:07

Why would such issues not also exist in the Jelco?

Mark

Would you say all S shaped arms add a bit of zing to the sound then ?

I seem to remember ' Richard Black saying the same about the ARO , in an old review (1990) .

YNWaN

21-04-2011, 11:09

OK, back the idea at hand... Do you guys know anyone who's capable of re-engineering (or blueprinting) the stock arm's base and VTA adjustment mechanism in order to remove the unwanted play? I know I'd buy such an upgrade kit.

To be honest, I think you underestimate the costs incurred in such a task. By the time such an item had been designed and manufactured I strongly suspect it would be more economic to upgrade the entire arm.

YNWaN

21-04-2011, 11:20

Mark

Would you say all S shaped arms add a bit of zing to the sound then ?

No I wouldn't, the shape of the arm is less important than the material it is made of, the diameter of the tube, the wall thickness, the surface finish and way it is bonded to the headshell and bearing (IMHO)

I seem to remember ' Richard Black saying the same about the ARO , in an old review (1990) .

Sorry, I'm not sure what 'same about' you are referring to - I'm afraid you will have to explain further.

EDIT: Oh, do you mean he wrote that, in his opinion, all S shaped arms added a bit of 'zing'? If that is the case, I would say it is rather a gross generalisation and fails to take into account many other aspects of arm design.

Marco

21-04-2011, 11:57

Hi Mark,

Why would such issues not also exist in the Jelco?

From extensive experience of using both tonearms (and the Technics as 'tweaked' as is possible, fully rewired, new headshell, fluid damping, etc), I can say that the Jelco (750) is in a different league - that is with a moving coil cartridge. With MMs, there may not be so much difference.

The Jelco, quite simply, has much better quality bearings, a less resonant armtube, and overall, it is mechanically superior. And of course as a result, performs rather better, sonically.

What should be realised is that Jelco are a rather serious Japanese engineering company who design and produce extremely high quality products (making their OWN bearings, too!), not just under their own name, but for other more 'prestigious' brands. And have been in the industry since 1920! Check them out: http://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/index.htm

I defy anyone to say that this is not a quality piece of engineering:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4886/tonearmsa75001.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/tonearmsa75001.jpg/)

If the Jelco SA-750 were sold with a more 'desirable badge', it would cost more than double what it does now. Basically, in terms of sonic performance, it's a £1000 tonearm, with a £400 price tag - and if one uses it with low-compliance cartridges, such as the Denon DL-103 or Ortofon SPU, it is difficult to beat. As for 'zings', well, that certainly isn't noticable to my ears.

Quite simply, I wouldn't be using one on my T/T if it didn't do the business ;)

But then, no tonearm is perfect - ultimately all we can do, just like anything else in hi-fi, is choose our compromises.......

Marco.

Beobloke

21-04-2011, 11:57

Frankly I'm surprised a the comments regarding the play in the VTA adjustment of the 1210. In the one I owned, plus 2 others I have repaired for people, the VTA adjustment was very solid and needed a firm twist to move. Are you sure yours isn't damaged in some way?

Beobloke

21-04-2011, 11:58

If the Jelco SA-750 were sold with a more 'desirable badge', it would cost more than double what it does now.

It already does......;)

Marco

21-04-2011, 12:09

Indeed, and here it is:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1194/ta100sh1.jpg (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/ta100sh1.jpg/)

Known as the 'Ortofon TA-110'; near identical (in fact, the word 'near' shouldn't really be used) to the Jelco 750 (above), and yours for £1100! :lol: :mental:

Isn't it amazing what one pays for a badge? Now, what's the name of that well-known Scottish T/T manufacturer again.......? ;)

Marco.

YNWaN

21-04-2011, 12:39

My comment was only directed at Dave's mention of "the pipe and headshell joint" and intentionally disregarded other aspects.

Marco

21-04-2011, 12:42

No worries, Mark. I was just answering the question you posed below:

Why would such issues not also exist in the Jelco?

I hope that my answer clarified matters :)

Marco.

YNWaN

21-04-2011, 13:41

The Jelco, quite simply, has much better quality bearings, a less resonant armtube......

Hi Marco, why is the armtube less resonant on the Jelco, is it internally damped in some way?

Marco

21-04-2011, 13:55

Hi Mark,

Nope. It just 'rings' less when you tap it. I suspect also that its main resonance frequency mode is different, which is probably largely why the Jelco sounds less coloured. I'm sure that the differences would show up on an accelerometer.

There's an upper-frequency forwardness ('sheen'/'zing') that's really annoying in the Technics arm, which is completely absent in the Jelco, and IME cannot be cured.

I believe it's an inherent 'signature' of the design (I suspect mainly caused by the effect of the resonant frequency mode of the armtube), although one may not be aware of this effect until comparing the Technics arm with something which 'behaves' better.

The material quality of the armtube is also notably much better on the Jelco. Basically, overall, it's just a much higher quality item :)

Marco.

DSJR

21-04-2011, 14:03

Why would such issues not also exist in the Jelco?

ALL detachable headshell tonearms have a slight weakness at the headshell join, but this can be minimised to ignorable levels with a decent headshell I think.

The Jelco 750 has better and more solid bearings with the addition of a little damping at the bearings to aid stability, the pipe itself is more solid - read, massive - and this inevitably 'should' reduce resonances which can afflict the Techie arm with a more demanding cartridge.

Hope this clarifies my current thoughts on these things a little.

Marco

21-04-2011, 14:05

The Jelco 750 has better and more solid bearings with the addition of a little damping at the bearings to aid stability, the pipe itself is more solid - read, massive - and this inevitably 'should' reduce resonances which can afflict the Techie arm with a more demanding cartridge.

Indeed.

Marco.

YNWaN

21-04-2011, 14:16

Is the Technics arm chrome plated (looks like it is)? I wonder what metal it is. The adjustment of the bearings will impact on the apparent liveliness of the armtube - even if all other variables are similar.

Dave, I'm afraid I do not share your beliefs with regard to removable headshells. In addition, I'm curious how 'a little damping' (presumably of the silicone variety) can aid 'stability' in a design of this type? In what way is stability compromised without such damping? Also, when you write that the armtube is more 'massive' do you mean it has a greater diameter, or the wall thickness is greater, or both - or what exactly?

Marco

21-04-2011, 14:42

Hi Mark,

Is the Technics arm chrome plated (looks like it is)? I wonder what metal it is. The adjustment of the bearings will impact on the apparent liveliness of the armtube - even if all other variables are similar.

Indeed, but how does one (an ordinary user) 'adjust the bearings' - and in exactly what way? That's not really practical. Sorry, I don't know what material the Technics arm is plated with.

Dave, I'm afraid I do not share your beliefs with regard to removable headshells. In addition, I'm curious how 'a little damping' (presumably of the silicone variety) can aid 'stability' in a design of this type? In what way is stability compromised without such damping?

I'll let Dave answer that one.

However, I can say with some considerable experience that I can detect little (if any) sonic degradation when using high-quality tonearms with detachable headshells. Over the years I've done many comparisons between those and fixed headshell designs (using the same cartridge and T/T, in the same system).

If there is any detrimental sonic effect, it's often completely overridden by the fact that many vintage detachable headshell arms (for example, such as those from Fidelity Research) are significantly better engineered overall than their modern fixed headshell counterparts, and so despite the 'limitations' of having detachable headshells, often end up sounding sonically superior (with the right cartridge).

At the end of the day, one must judge the 'whole'; and not just one piece which makes up the whole.... One simply cannot say, 'It's got a detachable headshell, therefore it must must be crap!' Such a statement would show considerable ignorance.

The fact is, there are too many variables to consider when doing the comparison, and of course, there is a danger also of focussing on only one aspect of a tonearm's design, and becoming bogged down with absolutes, when many elements contribute to the final sound obtained.

I would also add that Japanese audiophiles are no fools, and so if there were any major disadvantages of using high-quality detachable headshell arms, then pick-up arms from the likes of Fidelity Research would not have achieved such worldwide acclaim and cult status..... The FR64S is, quite simply, a superb sounding tonearm - one of the best ever made - and hampered little by its detachable headshell:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/784/fr64s.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/fr64s.jpg/)

A fine example of tonearm engineering at its best, n'est-ce-pas?

And, in any case, what's a boy to do if he loves using a (classic) SPU? It ain't ever gonna fit on a 'normal' tonearm ;)

Marco.

DSJR

21-04-2011, 18:15

Detachable headshell arms ALL have a potential difficulty at around 300Hz, right in the vocal region, BUT, modern headshell thinking and the solid, non resonant modern MC cartridges doesn't seem to make this an issue as it was in the ancient Supex/Linn plastic bodied moving coil days. The behaviour of the better examples of this tonearm type further up the frequency range does seem very good though.

Fixed headshell arms obviously avoided the midrange difficulty, but you have to go the whole hog to stop the treble ringing the Ittok and (certainly) early Ekos arms had. One way was the Zeta/Stogi approach - just beef everything up to make it HUGE, the best way for most cartridges for me anyway, was the Alphason approach and if this arm was marketed as agressively as Linn did theirs, and the thing built in Japan to the finish of the Ittok for example, the Ekos wouldn't have stood a chance in my view.

Regarding the optional damping on the Jelco 750, I reckon it's more for "borderline" cartridges which may wobble a bit over warps, rather than well stable pickups like the Denon 103 for example (Marco can expand upon the use of the damping on the Jelco please).

Regarding far-eastern audiophiles, so many of them have a cartridge for each LP they play, so easy replacement is essential for them to enjoy their hobby. I've also had a change of heart, as the R200 copes brilliantly with the Decca Microscanner and having played LP's today that I played yesterday on a different example on a superior tonearm, I'm getting splendid results from my old Rega cheapy-arm and with perfect tracking too ;)

Epicurus

21-04-2011, 23:44

Epicurus

21-04-2011, 23:48

Marco

22-04-2011, 08:11

Hi Konstantinos,

Actually, this is the SA-250 (not the 750) with an Ortofon headshell and it comes with a fancy-looking box.

No, the above (shown in your quote) is the Ortofon 'TA-110', as seen on this site:

http://www.eltim.eu/index.php?item=ortofon-ta-110_-static-9_-tonearm--_piece&action=article&aid=5000&lang=EN Check out the price!! :eek: :mental:

The 'Ortofon TA-110' is made by Jelco, and virtually identical to the Jelco SA-750, shown here on my own T/T:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4471/img4495w.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/img4495w.jpg/)

The Jelco SA-750 can cost as little as $500 new, as shown here (compared to the 1429 Euros required for the re-badged 'TA-110'):

http://affordableaudio.biz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=48_50&products_id=431

Ridiculous, innit, what you pay for a bloody badge! :rolleyes:

Marco.

Marco

22-04-2011, 09:49

Hi Dave,

Detachable headshell arms ALL have a potential difficulty at around 300Hz, right in the vocal region, BUT, modern headshell thinking and the solid, non resonant modern MC cartridges doesn't seem to make this an issue...

Indeed, it's really not an issue. Like you say, some of the high-mass modern headshells available now, made from 'exotic' materials, are very solidly constructed, all adding to inertness and rigidity, and thus miles away from some of the flimsy things of the past.

There is also an argument which says that the headshell joint breaks up and eliminates some resonances, and so actually improves performance. However, there are so many variables to consider here that it's difficult to arrive at any genuinely definitive conclusions.

Fixed headshell arms obviously avoided the midrange difficulty, but you have to go the whole hog to stop the treble ringing the Ittok and (certainly) early Ekos arms had. One way was the Zeta/Stogi approach - just beef everything up to make it HUGE, the best way for most cartridges for me anyway, was the Alphason approach and if this arm was marketed as agressively as Linn did theirs, and the thing built in Japan to the finish of the Ittok for example, the Ekos wouldn't have stood a chance in my view.

Completely agree! The Alphason HR-100s, for example, remains as one of finest tonearms ever produced - and WAY better, IMO, than anything Linn have made - or had made for them, lol ;)

Regarding the optional damping on the Jelco 750, I reckon it's more for "borderline" cartridges which may wobble a bit over warps, rather than well stable pickups like the Denon 103 for example (Marco can expand upon the use of the damping on the Jelco please).

Well, I added the damping fluid when I bought the Jelco, simply because up until then I'd been using a fully KAB-modified Technics arm, which had the damping trough fixed at its pivot point. That proved to be beneficial with the Techy arm, when using a DL-103, so I simply replicated that policy with the Jelco.

Therefore, I haven't compared the 'before & after' effects of adding the silicone damping fluid. However, it certainly didn't seem to do any harm, and is probably one of the reasons why Barry's Decca London Gold worked so superbly well on it.

Regarding far-eastern audiophiles, so many of them have a cartridge for each LP they play, so easy replacement is essential for them to enjoy their hobby.

Yep, convenience is definitely a factor, but the fact is if high-quality detachable headshell tonearms seriously, or in any way noticably degraded performance, they wouldn't entertain using them. In my experience, knowledgeable Japanese audiophiles have some of the most demanding and discerning ears in the business. They constantly strive for the best, and usually acheive it!

I've also had a change of heart, as the R200 copes brilliantly with the Decca Microscanner and having played LP's today that I played yesterday on a different example on a superior tonearm, I'm getting splendid results from my old Rega cheapy-arm and with perfect tracking too

The R-200, Dave, is a bloody good tonearm, and designed by Acos, who like Jelco, knew a thing or two about making top-notch pick-up arms that didn't cost the earth....

The fact is, if you're not a blinkered badge snob, or a 'disciple' of a particular manufacturer's design methodology, and willing to think outside of the box and look beyond the end of your nose, you'll have more potential to build a better system, which delivers high in musical satisfaction, than those trapped in a quagmire of absolutes or brand 'fanboism'.

Marco.

DSJR

22-04-2011, 10:20

+1 :cool:

synsei

22-04-2011, 12:18

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ACOS-LUSTRE-GST-1-SOUND-TRACER-PRECISION-TONE-ARM-/230609785694?_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D2%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8633972364684051681#ht_963 wt_1139 :rave:

YNWaN

22-04-2011, 16:55

That Acos has some interesting design features - I suspect quite a lot could be done with that.

Marco

22-04-2011, 16:58

It's a very nice arm, and would wipe the floor, musically, with a 'blandsville' stock Rega RB250 or 300! ;)

Marco.

synsei

22-04-2011, 18:56

I second that Marco, it is also a thing of beauty... :barrel:

YNWaN

22-04-2011, 19:40

Hmm..perhaps. I don't feel as negatively about the Rega arms as some do.

chris@panteg

22-04-2011, 19:58

Hmm..perhaps. I don't feel as negatively about the Rega arms as some do.

What's wrong with Rega arm's , i don't feel negative about them .

Marco

22-04-2011, 20:06

They can sound rather bland on the wrong T/T, Chris - certainly that's what my ears tell me whenever I've heard the effect.

The other thing too is I get bored to death with folk sticking to the same old 'safe' choices, and not expanding their horizons more. There's a distinct lack of imagination!

Like I've said before, I'd have a Roksan Nima, Hadcock, Jelco, SME Series M2, Audio Note, or even a modded Technics arm, before I'd have a stock Rega, (not to mention a lovely vintage arm like an Acos). For me, all are much more musically interesting performers.

YMMV :)

Marco.

synsei

22-04-2011, 21:59

They can sound rather bland on the wrong T/T, Chris - certainly that's what my ears tell me whenever I've heard the effect.

The other thing too is I get bored to death with folk sticking to the same old 'safe' choices, and not expanding their horizons more. There's a distinct lack of imagination!

Like I've said before, I'd have a Roksan Nima, Hadcock, Jelco, Audio Note, or even a modded Technics arm, before I'd have a stock Rega, (not to mention a lovely vintage arm like an Acos). For me, all are much more musically interesting performers.

YMMV :)

Marco.

I guess that would put me pretty much in a fantasy realm with my choice of an SME SeriesIII then... :lolsign:

WOStantonCS100

23-04-2011, 00:48

...the pot's already been stirred up; so, one more time around with the ladle shouldn't make a difference... ;)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/daiwok/IMG_5229.jpg

Marco

23-04-2011, 08:01

Yo, Biff - respect! :eek:

How does it sound? I would've thought that the 'arm'/wand wouldn't have had enough mass for the SPU.....

Dave, there's nothing wrong with an SME Series III, with the right cartridge! ;)

Marco.

chris@panteg

23-04-2011, 10:51

...the pot's already been stirred up; so, one more time around with the ladle shouldn't make a difference... ;)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/daiwok/IMG_5229.jpg

I reckon that will sound bloody great :)

DSJR

23-04-2011, 13:10

MartinT

23-04-2011, 13:34

The other thing too is I get bored to death with folk sticking to the same old 'safe' choices, and not expanding their horizons more. There's a distinct lack of imagination!

Now I really don't think you could accuse me of that with my arm choice, Marco :)

Regarding damping as discussed in this thread, I am certainly an advocate of some damping to keep control over the stylus/groove behaviour. My arm does it differently, but I think damping overall is a good thing.

Marco

24-04-2011, 07:09

I feel about Hadcocks the way Marco does about Rega RB arms - I set too many of the former things up and had all of em practically fall to bits each time. I'm sure modern ones are better, but the garden-shed build of the originals weigh heavy with me..

You're right to feel that way about older Hadcocks, Dave, but trust me, the new ones are a different ball game altogether. The GH242 Integra I had was a thing of beauty, and finished with jewel-like precision :)

They also have a lovely open, detailed and musical presentation - the polar opposite of the rather 'dense' and opaque sound of a stock RB250 or 300, unless one fits a typical 'toppy' sounding cartridge to ameliorate the effect.

Martin, you epitomise the 'out of the box' thinking I'd like to see more of. Folk should shun 'the usual suspects', apply some lateral thinking, and try to be a bit different! Biff strapping an SPU to a Terminator definitely deserves some respect!! :clap:

Marco.

DSJR

24-04-2011, 10:27

A good Hadcock always sounded good and was a great match to a Decca. My only complaint was the old style build and finish, making it difficult or impossible for a non-enthusiast to use in case the countweight assembly fell out (or similar)..

Marco

24-04-2011, 11:11

Sure, but that's simply not an issue any more with the new ones.

I'd like to see more folks buy Hadcocks than Regas (not because I've got anything against the company, but I think that their arms have become too much of a 'safe' choice), as IMO, the sonic rewards of doing so, with the right cartridge, could be substantial :)

SME M2s should also be more widely used, as they're fantastic arms, and represents real 'SPPV' in the SME range. And Shuggie has had excellent results (which I've heard) with the Audio Note Arm 1.

Along with the superb Roksan Nima, let's give some of these arms more recognition, and wider use, instead of the same old boring choices again and again!

Marco.

DSJR

24-04-2011, 11:59

Pssst - Rega don't just turn their back on comments like these, but rather than try to "cure" a supposed problem by adding more to cover up, as many of the Rega bodgers do for shedloads of money, they look at the fundamentals and eventually work on them to make the product better.

I shall say no more (and really don't know more at present), but the next few months may be very interesting for "budget" tonearm design ;)

Welder

24-04-2011, 12:23

Nothing wrong with Hadcocks Dave, even the old ones ;)
The best sound I got with vinyl was using a Decca London Gold in a Hadcock, albeit slightly tweaked.
As Marco points out the more recent varieties are very well engineered.
Perhaps they are not the easiest arms to set up but then again in my experience only enthusiasts buy them and are prepared to take the trouble to get them sounding right :)

Marco

24-04-2011, 13:06

Hi Dave,

Pssst - Rega don't just turn their back on comments like these, but rather than try to "cure" a supposed problem by adding more to cover up, as many of the Rega bodgers do for shedloads of money, they look at the fundamentals and eventually work on them to make the product better.

I shall say no more (and really don't know more at present), but the next few months may be very interesting for "budget" tonearm design

Well if Rega read what's written about their products on the 'Net, then that's good, especially if it makes them up their game in terms of the performance their RB250 and 300 is capable of.

Like I said, IMO, they've become too much of a 'safe choice' for people, and as a result encourage lazy thinking. So if Rega are going to introduce a new budget toneam design to counteract this, then I applaud that, but let's have some radical thinking and a departure from the 'same old, same old', which at best gave mediocre results.

I'l like to see a new armtube, one made from different materials, with perhaps carbon fibre featuring somewhere. Take a leaf out of Pro-Ject's book, in that respect, as I believe that carbon fibre is an excellent material from which to construct a tonearm (or at least parts of it).

Anyway, I'll leave that to Rega - I ain't giving them anymore ideas! ;)

Marco.

synsei

24-04-2011, 13:59

Just to balance things out a little, I don't think we should be too hard on Rega. The design of the 251 and 301 is way ahead of anyone else at the price, so there is very little choice for those who prefer to buy new. I'd hate to see Rega go under because a few of us crusty old audiophiles keep banging on about how much better things were in the 'Good 'Ole Days'... :lol:

DSJR

24-04-2011, 17:39

Rega don't really sell to us bods on forums and to be fair, the RB arms just don't give their best on metal-plate Technics arm boards. Livelier cartridges can be readily used on Rega arms too without the splatter and splash that these carts can give on lesser arms. It's just a matter of matching.

Anyway, this conversation will be obsolete in a few months time I understand :lol:

Marco

25-04-2011, 08:51

Hi Dave,

Just to balance things out a little, I don't think we should be too hard on Rega. The design of the 251 and 301 is way ahead of anyone else at the price, so there is very little choice for those who prefer to buy new.

What about the basic Pro-Ject arm - how much is that? I quite like the sound of those, and would probably use one before any of the above.

I'd hate to see Rega go under because a few of us crusty old audiophiles keep banging on about how much better things were in the 'Good 'Ole Days'... :lol:

Lol - it's not a case of that, though. I don't want to see Rega go under either (and I doubt it would happen). All the alternatives I posted earlier from Hadcock, SME, Audio Note, Jelco, etc, are available new.

What 'annoys' me about Rega is that they don't seem to have developed or evolved the design of the RB250/300 much since its inception, almost as if they've only got the one 'mould' from which to make a tonearm......

Most other pick-up arm manufacturers have different designs in their range, but with Rega, it's basically just the same arm tarted up more, as you go further up the range. I mean, an RB1000 is essentially just a rewired, stripped and polished RB300 with slightly better bearings.

I don't see any genuine innovation/ambition or an attempt to produce something new. All I see, tonearm wise, is a company who appears to have rested on their laurels and 'milked' the success of having produced the most widely used tonearm in the world. Well done, like, but let's see something FRESH AND NEW for a change!

One wonders if Rega are actually capable of doing that.....

Marco.

synsei

25-04-2011, 11:02

What about the basic Pro-Ject arm - how much is that?

Ah, I wasn't aware Project sold their arms separately. They've certainly kept that very quiet. :eyebrows:

All the alternatives I posted earlier from Hadcock, SME, Audio Note, Jelco, etc, are available new.

Yes they are, but if you are on a budget and looking for a new arm most of the above would be out of reach, although personally I'd probably save the extra pennies and buy a Jelco. The Project arm would be worthy of an audition though, depending on cartridge choice of course.

What 'annoys' me about Rega is that they don't seem to have developed or evolved the design of the RB250/300 much since its inception, almost as if they've only got the one 'mould' from which to make a tonearm......

That's because the original design was quite revolutionary, especially at Rega's proposed price point, and I'm guessing they stuck with it because it works and is a rigid design (most of the budget arms that were available when Rega first released these arms weren't all that great, the Linn Basik LVV being a prime example). I agree that it has been more a case of 'evolution' rather than 'revolution' since inception, but that calls up the old adage, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. SME have been following the same philosophy for years.

I don't see any genuine innovation/ambition or an attempt to produce something new. All I see, tonearm wise, is a company who appears to have rested on their laurels and 'milked' the success of having produced the most widely used tonearm in the world. Well done, like, but let's see something FRESH AND NEW for a change!
I shall say no more (and really don't know more at present), but the next few months may be very interesting for "budget" tonearm design

Despite Daves denials he's obviously heard some news on the industry grapevine... :lol: Now all we have to do is await the ripening crop to see if the result has the potential to produce an excellent vintage. Bottoms up!!! :cool:

Marco

25-04-2011, 11:19

Ah, I wasn't aware Project sold their arms separately. They've certainly kept that very quiet. :eyebrows:

Well I'm presuming so, given that I've noticed their arms on other manufacturer's T/Ts, so they must be available separately....

Yes they are, but if you are on a budget and looking for a new arm most of the above would be out of reach, although personally I'd probably save the extra pennies and buy a Jelco. The Project arm would be worthy of an audition though, depending on cartridge choice of course.

Indeed. I'd also save up for the Jelco, especially as the 250ST can be had pretty cheaply, bought straight from Japan, if one shops around.

That's because the original design was quite revolutionary, especially at Rega's proposed price point, and I'm guessing they stuck with it because it works and is a rigid design (most of the budget arms that were available when Rega first released these arms weren't all that great, the Linn Basik LVV being a prime example). I agree that it has been more a case of 'evolution' rather than 'revolution' since inception, but that calls up the old adage, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'. SME have been following the same philosophy for years.

Yup, I get all that. However, what's wrong with retaining the original design AND creating something new? Do Rega have the ability (here I'm talking about tooling/engineering facilities) to design a different tonearm?

At least SME make the M2-9R and M2-12R, which are very different designs from the Series 309, IV, and V.

Despite Daves denials he's obviously heard some news on the industry grapevine... :lol: Now all we have to do is await the ripening crop to see if the result has the potential to produce an excellent vintage. Bottoms up!!! :cool:

Lol, indeed. I await being suitably gobsmacked! ;)

Good companies should always strive to improve and add to their product range. I don't feel that Rega have done this enough with their range of tonearms. In fact using the word 'range' is being somewhat generous.

Marco.

YNWaN

25-04-2011, 13:02

If you look on-line enough you can find hints about the new Rega arm (and turntable). However, don't expect anything revolutionary - looks far more evolutionary; this has always been Rega's ethos and has worked well for them.

Rega fabricate their arms - they do not actually manufacture the armtube itself (though they did design it). Rega has the ability to design whatever they want (in terms of arm design) - but that doesn't mean they are going to completely change track and pursue a quite different design path.

The Project arms are not available as individual items to the retail customer (at present), but if you are another manufacturer they will sell to you.

Marco

25-04-2011, 13:13

Hi Mark,

It's good that Rega are doing something new at long last, although how 'new' it is, remains to be seen.

Rega fabricate their arms - they do not actually manufacture the armtube itself (though they did design it). Rega has the ability to design whatever they want (in terms of arm design) - but that doesn't mean they are going to completely change track and pursue a quite different design path.

And rightly so. I'm not asking them to do that, though. What I'd like to see is an addition to their existing 'RB Series' - something that shows some radical/innovative thinking, which takes us away from the same old boring choices (which I don't think particularly work that well).

Like I said, other pick-up arm manufacturers manage to have more than one design in their range, so I don't see why Rega can't also.

The Project arms are not available as individual items to the retail customer (at present), but if you are another manufacturer they will sell to you.

Ah, that's a shame. I wonder why not? :scratch:

IMO, if they were sold separately, they'd sell in their 100s, as I reckon they'd be very good value in the SPPV stakes. I like the sonic signature of carbon-fibre armtubes/headshells :)

Perhaps they've got an 'arrangement' with Rega, so as not to step on their toes? ;)

If so, that's a shame, as it's depriving folk of choice!

Marco.

DSJR

25-04-2011, 14:46

Pro-ject seem to be doing a Thorens and marketing turntables for every taste and occasion right now. Selling an arm on its own may not be profitable for them in all honesty.

I don't know much, but Rega do look to be doing something very soon and as most of their arms use the same basic casting, I suspect it could be in the tube design and shape that the main changes will be. With any luck, they'll have analysed exactly what the current unit is doing and researched what might be needed to develop it further.

Rega told me that as long as the tool which reams out the bearing housing on the arm casting stays intact, the pipes are literally pennies over a large batch, as this tool could do hundreds of arm castings before wearing out. If it failed though, then it cost thousands to replace it. For years, the arm was the most profitable thing in a Planar turntable I understand, although things may have changed now.

New product for small UK manufacturers is always a lengthy process to start up, so comments made in January for example, may not bear fruit until the following Autumn. We shall see :)

YNWaN

25-04-2011, 16:53

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_os3NNzmoDAo/S0mo_voixTI/AAAAAAAAAbQ/9q-UWI4qkFg/s320/regaarm.jpg

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 17:33

Hi Konstantinos,

No, the above (shown in your quote) is the Ortofon 'TA-110', as seen on this site:

http://www.eltim.eu/index.php?item=ortofon-ta-110_-static-9_-tonearm--_piece&action=article&aid=5000&lang=EN Check out the price!! :eek: :mental:

The 'Ortofon TA-110' is made by Jelco, and virtually identical to the Jelco SA-750, shown here on my own T/T:

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4471/img4495w.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/img4495w.jpg/)

The Jelco SA-750 can cost as little as $500 new, as shown here (compared to the 1429 Euros required for the re-badged 'TA-110'):

http://affordableaudio.biz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=48_50&products_id=431

Ridiculous, innit, what you pay for a bloody badge! :rolleyes:

Marco.

No, it's the 250. And all Ortofon arms are based on the 250. None of them offers fluid damping. Also, check out the chassis where the antiskating control is placed; on the 750, it's got sharp corners, whereas on the 250 (which has also been the basis for some of Linn's tonearms) it's rounded. You pay a LOT for Jelco's base product with an Ortofon box and headshell.

synsei

25-04-2011, 17:49

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_os3NNzmoDAo/S0mo_voixTI/AAAAAAAAAbQ/9q-UWI4qkFg/s320/regaarm.jpg

I admire the simplicity of this design and the benefits it brings to the table due to its rigidity... ;)

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 17:58

And here you are:

Jelco SA-250 (the S-shaped version):

http://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/img/tonearm.jpg

Ortofon TA-110 (formerly TA-100) - detailed view of the chassis:

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/tonearms/TA%20100d%20web.jpg

Note the counterweight, which is identical in both the Jelco 250 and the Ortofon arm. Also, note the rounded edges of the base under the antiskating dial. And the cover of the arm's articulation is identical in the Jelco 250 and the Ortofon; the only difference is that the top of this cover is different on the Ortofon.

What does this leave us with?

1. We reach the conclusion that the Jelco 250 is a perfectly sound tonearm (hey, if Ortofon has Jelco ghostbuilt arms for it, then Jelco must know what it's doing - also TW-Acustic use this particular arm).
2. We find out that Ortofon thinks it can add substitute Jelco/Sumiko's headshell for one of its own and, with the addition of a more luxurious (but certainly no more expensive than a few quid) box, sell it for well over 1000 GBP above its original retail price. If you want to translate this in somewhat harsher terms, Ortofon must think buyers are completely off their rocker.
3. Also, this confirms the existence of an awful lot of hype in the world of audio.

Marco

25-04-2011, 19:14

Hi Konstantinos,

Point taken. What I meant, though, is that the 'Ortofon TA-110' is really no such thing, and simply a Jelco with a 'fancy badge' - a fact we both agree on. I had missed the, erm, 'strong resemblance' between it and the Jelco SA-250....

The fact that, as you correctly say, the 'Ortofon' resembles the Jelco SA-250, more than the (superior) SA-750, makes it even worse! :rolleyes:

Incidentally, as an aside, Jelco have made arms for many manufacturers in the past. Their Japanese engineering is second to none. They made the famous Sumiko MMT, remember that?

These are some of the companies which have marketed Jelco arms under their own names: Koetsu, Sumiko, Audioquest, Linn, Oracle, Ariston, Roksan, Revolver, Mission and Graham.

Somewhat shocking, isn't it? Jelco make their own jewelled bearings, and are in complete control of quality. In terms of engineering prowess, they are the Japanese equivalent of SME.

Therefore people who have a low opinion of Jelco arms, due in no small part to snob value, need to wake up and smell the coffee!! ;)

Marco.

Spectral Morn

25-04-2011, 19:28

The Graham arm in question was the Robin and as I recall at the time it came out..well...it didn't do very well in the reviews it got. I can't recall why though. I would need to dig about in my old Stereophiles to see. Though if I recall right Stereophile were not the only mag to be less than delighted with the Robin.

Regards D S D L

Marco

25-04-2011, 19:35

I don't know why either, Neil. I guess that a lot would depend on what the brief was, and as such, what spec of tonearm Graham 'commissioned' them to supply.

I get the impression that Jelco will produce mediocre designs, much better than that, or the most serious muthafukka arm in world, depending on exactly what is required! ;)

Marco.

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 19:38

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 19:43

BTW, here's a Stereophile review of the Graham Robin/Jelco SA-250ST:

http://www.stereophile.com/tonearms/821/index.html

Marco

25-04-2011, 19:44

Marco, I'm very well aware of the fact that the Sumiko MMT, the Koetsu tonearms and the Sumiko headshells are all Jelco products. Knowing this, combined with the fact that the audiophile snobs I know here don't know where the big-name tonearms they love come from, is a great source of lulz for me everytime I confront them. Of course, they get extremely butthurt when I point out that they've paid more than three times the true value of the initial product just for a "prestigious" badge - and then they go BAWWWWW.

:lolsign:

My heart bleeds! It's this sort of thing that makes 'hi-end audio' a very bad joke. Don't even think that this is an isolated incident either.... :rolleyes:

So when are you going to upgrade to a Jelco from the Techy arm? ;)

Marco.

keiths

25-04-2011, 19:45

The Graham arm in question was the Robin

One on eBay at the moment. Looks a bit like the basic 250ST but with a Rega mount...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/graham-robin-tonearm-made-jelco-rega-mount-version-/300484602292?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f64729b4

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 19:48

Once upon a time, I used to take such people somewhat seriously. Then, when I saw how messed up their views were, with their horrendously mismatched systems (for instance, a Dared valve amp with ridiculously low power trying to drive a pair of Tannoy Sensys DC2's, with a Philips 963 perched precariously on an old leather suitcase as the source) and their Unwarranted Self-Importance, I got on the offensive and decided to troll them IRL (In Real Life) to death.

Marco

25-04-2011, 19:54

BTW, here's a Stereophile review of the Graham Robin/Jelco SA-250ST:

http://www.stereophile.com/tonearms/821/index.html

Nice one. Hardly a disastrous review, and shows that with tonearms, context and synergy are everything.

Is the Robin still available to buy new?

Marco.

Spectral Morn

25-04-2011, 20:14

BTW, here's a Stereophile review of the Graham Robin/Jelco SA-250ST:

http://www.stereophile.com/tonearms/821/index.html

Thanks for posting...

I think that was the second review, the first was not as complementary. With the caveat that I recall this all correctly.

Regards D S D L

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 20:16

The Robin has been out of production for quite some time. Graham now offers only the Phantom II.

Marco

25-04-2011, 20:18

Did they design that themselves, or did they get 'daddy' to do it for them? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Epicurus

25-04-2011, 20:31

No idea.

Marco

25-04-2011, 21:33

Neil, do you know (or anyone else)?

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

25-04-2011, 21:45

I think it was pretty much a Jelco design with some minor requirements attended to.
I believe they wanted a Rega diam. hole. I think there was also a Lemo/Camac connector taking the internal wiring to an external socket board - but that may have been an optional extra - not sure.

Marco

25-04-2011, 21:51

So Neil's rather expensive 'baby' is essentially a souped-up Jelco?

Marco.

YNWaN

25-04-2011, 22:08

Graham introduced the Robin so that they could offer an arm priced below the Phantom. No, they didn't design it as such - other than picking the various build aspects from the available shopping list. Ultimately, the Robin failed to live up to the markets expectation of the quality a Graham arm should be.

As for Jelco being the eastern equivalent of SME, I can't see it myself.

Marco

25-04-2011, 22:16

Why exactly? I'm curious. Is it just because they're Japanese, and so obviously their products can't be as good as anything British? What facts are you basing your opinion on, Mark?

Oh, and let's clear this up properly, is the Phantom also made by Jelco? I'd like to know the score on this.

Ultimately, the Robin failed to live up to the markets expectation of the quality a Graham arm should be.

I'd love an opportunity to test that one myself, as I sense that 'commercial interests' may have had something to do with its downfall ;)

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

25-04-2011, 22:37

Just to be clear, I was talking about the Robin.

Marco

25-04-2011, 22:42

Ammonite Audio

26-04-2011, 07:40

................ Point taken. What I meant, though, is that the 'Ortofon TA-110' is really no such thing, and simply a Jelco with a 'fancy badge' - a fact we both agree on. I had missed the, erm, 'strong resemblance' between it and the Jelco SA-250...........

A casual glance at Ortofon's website (http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=309&Itemid=346) shows that the TA-110 has some significant modifications over the base Jelco arm and that Ortofon have the decency to publish their measurement data. In particular, the arm tube has a slit on the underside, with a rubber insert to damp resonances above the fundamental:

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/tonearms/Tube%20with%20rubber%20insert%20CAD%2001.jpg

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/newsletters/hifi/2010-09/Vibration%20measurement%20web.jpg

So, it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that it's just a tarted up Jelco - I believe that Ortofon have done rather more work on it than they have been given credit for. Of course, what this says is that Jelco's designs are basically sound, and that they are good enough for Ortofon's entry level arm; and having owned an SA-750 I would agree with that, but I certainly would not agree that Jelco's quality is in SME's territory, nor that their performance is anything but consistent with their modest pricing.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 07:53

Ammonite Audio

26-04-2011, 08:20

They don't tell us, though, what they based their arm on. Remember Marantz's TT-15S deck? Everyone pointed out that it's a modded Clearaudio Emotion. No corporate spokesperson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill) started going around in forums telling us that it's an "all original" design, that was not based on anything else (http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Bullshit). And this is what makes Ortofon's attitude suck. When the similarities between the TA-100 (an arm that remained in production for a while until the TA-110 was introduced - and that one was even more similar to the Jelco design) were pointed out, they sent out representatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill) on various forums and blogs to tell us that we're basically blind. They were laughed off. It seems the 110 is a response to the criticism and ridicule they justly received for repackaging a Jelco 250 along with their basic headshell and slapping a ridiculous price tag on it.

Why should they have to tell us? They are in business and it's clear that they have a business relationship with Jelco for one article in their catalogue. In any case, the arms are clearly different, whatever you and others keep telling the world. Ortofon have the decency to explain the design and to publish measurement data - are those the actions of some sort of secret organisation threatening the audio world? I think not. Hyperlinks to Wikipedia do not enhance your argument at all, by the way.

Am I the only person here who is happy to let people and organisations do business without them being accused of subterfuge? :steam:

Spectral Morn

26-04-2011, 09:30

Ah, thanks, Chris. That wasn't clear (as I thought your previous post was in reference to the Phantom), but it is now.

Still, one wonders that since Jelco made the Robin, then did they have any influence in designing the Phantom?

Mmmm....

Marco.

Hi Marco, simple answer is nope.

The Graham Robin was introduced to address the absence of an entry level Graham arm. All of Bob's unipivot arms are hand built and in small quantities (other than the Robin which is an oem Jelco unit). Bob Graham introduced the Phantom after taking his first arm design as far as he could (I have a Graham 2.2 arm as well) so all the influences are taken from his own earlier designs. The Phantom is now a mk2 version as well. My Phantom was late in the mk1 production line and incorporates a few .2 updates.

Regards D S D L

Marco

26-04-2011, 09:35

Thanks for that, Neil. I suspected as much, but you just never know! ;)

Hugo, LOL, what are you like?? :eyebrows:

I'm just having my breakfast (had a bit of a lie-in after staying up until 3am this morning listening to music).

I'll address your comments after I've finished my croissant and cappuccino! :)

Marco.

Spectral Morn

26-04-2011, 09:37

A casual glance at Ortofon's website (http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=309&Itemid=346) shows that the TA-110 has some significant modifications over the base Jelco arm and that Ortofon have the decency to publish their measurement data. In particular, the arm tube has a slit on the underside, with a rubber insert to damp resonances above the fundamental:

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/tonearms/Tube%20with%20rubber%20insert%20CAD%2001.jpg

http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/newsletters/hifi/2010-09/Vibration%20measurement%20web.jpg

So, it is a bit disingenuous to suggest that it's just a tarted up Jelco - I believe that Ortofon have done rather more work on it than they have been given credit for. Of course, what this says is that Jelco's designs are basically sound, and that they are good enough for Ortofon's entry level arm; and having owned an SA-750 I would agree with that, but I certainly would not agree that Jelco's quality is in SME's territory, nor that their performance is anything but consistent with their modest pricing.

I have to agree owning both myself. The SME arms are beautifully built, finished and come with the best instructions in the business. The Jelco 750d I have can't compare re fit and finish and set up instruction are non existent.

However in regards to Technics 1200/1210 synergy with arms and the right cart, a Jelco may well be a better arm in that particular environment rather than an SME. However in saying that I think the same applies to the Jelco on other turntables where the SME arms could well be better. The arm cable people seem to use with the Jelco too the neglix is imho/e a poor cable. Dump it and upgrade to something better or just buy better to start with. Never mind headshells holding things back (I still have to explore that aspect of things yet) this arm cable is a major bottle neck if you are using one.

Regards D S D L

synsei

26-04-2011, 09:39

Why should they have to tell us? They are in business and it's clear that they have a business relationship with Jelco for one article in their catalogue. In any case, the arms are clearly different, whatever you and others keep telling the world. Ortofon have the decency to explain the design and to publish measurement data - are those the actions of some sort of secret organisation threatening the audio world? I think not. Hyperlinks to Wikipedia do not enhance your argument at all, by the way.

Am I the only person here who is happy to let people and organisations do business without them being accused of subterfuge? :steam:

There really isn't any need for this discussion to get heated because in the end it all comes down to simple economics. Buy the Jelco product and save yourself a fortune.

The blame for this situation can be set squarely at Ortofon's door. Clearly Jelco have a multi-tier business model in regards to their provision of tonearms for other companies. Jelco offer a premium service which includes the development of a unique design, or at the very least, a highly modified version of one of their existing designs. We know this to be the case because the information and products are out in the public domain. Lower down the scale it is also obvious that Jelco offer their bread and butter tonearms with little or no modifications to whomever stumps up the cash. Ortofon have obviously taken the latter option and have either performed some minor mods, or more likely, had Jelco do them, and are now trying to pass it off as a better product than it actually is. Time and sales will be the ultimate arbiter here methinks... :rolleyes:

Marco

26-04-2011, 09:42

I have to agree owning both myself. The SME arms are beautifully built, finished and come with the best instructions in the business. The Jelco 750d I have can't compare re fit and finish and set up instruction are non existent.

Yes, but the SA-750 isn't a 'statement' design from Jelco, so how can you compare? You can't judge their (ultimate) enginering prowess on a couple of fairly basic products, Neil!

I'd bet that if you asked them to copy an SME V (if that were legal), it would be near identical and every bit as good! They have the skill and tooling to do it.

Clearly Jelco have a multi-tier business model in regards to their provision of tonearms for other companies. I would hazard a guess that their premium service includes the development of a unique design, or at the very least, a highly modified version of one of their existing designs.

Indeed! :clap:

An example of this, I believe, is the tonearm I intend to buy later this year: the 'Ortofon' RS-212D.... http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-RS-212D-Tonearm

;)

I have it on very good authority that these arms are made by Jelco, and there is evidence of 'Jelco DNA', if you look closely (on the left is the one I intend to buy):

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8646/rs212d309db.jpg (http://img839.imageshack.us/i/rs212d309db.jpg/)

Now look at the quality of the engineering there, and tell me that it's not as good as what SME make!!

Marco.

Ammonite Audio

26-04-2011, 09:53

I'm sorry, but what 'situation' are you talking about? Using terms like 'blame' implies that Ortofon have committed some sort of crime here, which they patently have not. What is wrong with Ortofon selling their own version of a Jelco arm, at whatever price they see fit? It's not as though any of the AoS community actually feel coerced to buy the thing, is it?

If we were talking about cars, would anyone get really hot under the collar because Jaguar sold a car closely based on the Mondeo, or any number of Korean cars are minor variations of the same models, both mechanically and visually? Probably not, particularly since to many minds Jaguar made a better Mondeo in the process!

Yes, the Jelco is cheaper and for many that is all that matters, but maybe the Ortofon version fully justifies its price? Maybe someone has bought one and can write about what it actually sounds like?

Spectral Morn

26-04-2011, 09:54

Thanks for that, Neil. I suspected as much, but you just never know! ;)

Hugo, LOL, what are you like?? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Graham was put under pressure to have a cheaper arm and the Robin was the answer. How much actual Graham changes to the standard unit were incorporated I am not sure. Knowing Bob though I suspect a few but they would have been taken from the 2.2 to it.

Having exploited the 2.2 as far as he could take it Bob had to rethink the arm size and functionality to move on from the bottlenecks the earlier arm had.

The Phantom is bigger and heavier for a start, it uses a magnet instead of outrigger weights for balancing the arm, the unipivot bearing is bigger, arm cable mounting block is much bigger (not such a good thing as it can cause issues when mounting the arm on some turntables.) The VTA adjuster tower is bigger. In all the Phantom is a beefier arm with much better bass the the earlier arm but the openness and magic has not been lost of the earlier design.

Ammonite Audio

26-04-2011, 10:00

Hi Marco

But the TA-110 is clearly not a 'statement' product either, unlike the other Ortofon arms that you have pictured. I know nothing about them but I'd hazard a guess that the engineering is rather more exotic than in the TA-110 and probably more than a match for SME's. If it's made by Jelco, then fine. If you look at the social costs of employing people in Denmark, outsourcing does make sense.

Yes, but the SA-750 isn't a 'statement' design from Jelco, so how can you compare? You can't judge their (ultimate) enginering prowess on a couple of fairly basic products!

I'd bet that if you asked them to copy an SME V (if that were legal), it would be near identical and every bit as good! They have the skill and tooling to do it.

Indeed! :clap:

An example of this, I believe, is the tonearm I intend to buy later this year: the 'Ortofon' RS212D.... http://www.needledoctor.com/Ortofon-RS-212D-Tonearm

;)

I have it on very good authority that these arms are made by Jelco (on the left is the one I intend to buy):

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8646/rs212d309db.jpg (http://img839.imageshack.us/i/rs212d309db.jpg/)

Now look at the quality of the engineering there, and tell me that it's not as good as what SME make!!

Marco.

synsei

26-04-2011, 10:01

The Grand Wazoo

26-04-2011, 10:10

Marco

26-04-2011, 10:15

Hi Hugo,

You make some valid points, mate.

However, for me, no way does more than double the cost between a Jelco SA-750 (let alone the even cheaper SA-250) and an 'Ortofon' TA-110, justify the simple inclusion of some rubber filling of the armtube, in the latter (to increase damping) and perhaps some other superficial tweaks.

Perhaps if it only cost a couple of hundred pounds more, then fair enough - especially when damping, via silicone injection, is a already a feature of the much less expensive Jelco SA-750D.

The fact is both are basically the same design. No way would I be happy paying £1200/1300 for a 'TA-110', knowing that it's basically a re-badged Jelco, when I could have an SA-750D for less than half that amount, and spend the change on records!!

However you cut it, the 'TA-110' looks grossly overpriced. You are paying more for it than a Jelco mostly because it has an Ortofon badge - what value the market will stand for ownership of products carrying that badge - and their overheads as company. I don't care if they're based in Denmark or Timbuktu!

Unless I have no option, I'm not interested in paying for a company's overheads, partly as a result of their geographical location, or the 'prestige value' of a badge. All I want is out-and-out sonic performance, which delivers high in the SPPV stakes, so therefore it makes sense to cut out the middle man (in this case Ortofon) and smile happily as you save yourself a fortune! ;)

That, my friend, are the facts of the matter.

Marco.

synsei

26-04-2011, 10:22

All of this disparaging talk of companies who price their rebadged Jelco's - has it occurred to you that possibly the terms that Jelco supply under may include a clause to ensure that rebadged products are priced outside of Jelco's own chosen marketplace?

I'm sure that is the case Chris, but either way it really doesn't change anything regarding the relative merits of the product at the price.

I'm not knocking either company, they are in it to make money after all. Maybe my use of the word 'blame' was a little emotive, perhaps it would have been more accurate to describe Ortofon's pricing of that particular arm as being a little optimistic. ;)

Either way, there are better arms out there at the price Ortofon are charging and that's the point really... :cool:

Marco

26-04-2011, 10:43

Indeed, Dave. And what you wrote earlier I think is spot on:

Jelco offer a premium service which includes the development of a unique design, or at the very least, a highly modified version of one of their existing designs. We know this to be the case because the information and products are out in the public domain. Lower down the scale it is also obvious that Jelco offer their bread and butter tonearms with little or no modifications to whomever stumps up the cash. Ortofon have obviously taken the latter option and have either performed some minor mods, or more likely, had Jelco do them, and are now trying to pass it off as a better product than it actually is.

Clearly, given the obvious elements of 'Jelco DNA' in the design of the 'Ortofon RS-212D', and the fact that I have it on very good authority that Jelco make this tonearm, the 'RS-212D' is an example of what is emboldened above.

And the point then of course is that one can only judge the engineering prowess of Jelco in the context of their 'premium designs', such as the RS-212D, which I think we can all agree appears to be of SME quality, and if not, I'm sure they could do even better, given the requisite budget.

Therefore, I stand by what I said earlier in reference to SME and Jelco.

You see, I don't mind paying £1300, or whatever it takes when the time comes, for an RS-212D, because quite clearly (unlike the 'TA-110') it is a different ball game from a Jelco SA-750, and so I'm sure that when I strap it onto my Techy, and listen, the difference will be obvious - and so my financial investment will have been amply rewarded.

Therefore, I won't have paid simply for a badge, but for significantly improved sonic performance. That's what achieving SPPV is all about!

Now examine the 'Ortofon TA-110', and compare it with the 'RS-212D', both are 'Ortofon' products, and virtually the same price (yes, think about that one for a minute), and tell me that buying a 'TA-110' is likely to give me the same result....... ;)

Marco.

MartinT

26-04-2011, 12:25

The analogy with Ford/Jaguar is valid but in no way should be criticised from either perspective. From one viewpoint, the Jaguar X-Type is just a Ford Mondeo with relatively small differences and no-one should buy one because clearly the Mondeo offers better value. From another completely different perspective, the Jaguar has a slightly nicer body shape and many different small cues that give it its 'Jaguar-ness' and offers the buyer some of the feel of a proper Jaguar higher up the range, despite its being basically a Mondeo underneath.

Can the difference in price between the Mondeo and Jaguar be justified in material terms? Clearly not, but that's to miss the point entirely. They are positioned in different market sectors and attract completely different buyers. As long as there is a market for it, Jaguar cannot be criticised for using an OEM vehicle to enhance its product range.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 12:28

Why should they have to tell us? They are in business and it's clear that they have a business relationship with Jelco for one article in their catalogue. In any case, the arms are clearly different, whatever you and others keep telling the world. Ortofon have the decency to explain the design and to publish measurement data - are those the actions of some sort of secret organisation threatening the audio world? I think not. Hyperlinks to Wikipedia do not enhance your argument at all, by the way.

Am I the only person here who is happy to let people and organisations do business without them being accused of subterfuge? :steam:

The thing is painfully simple, yet sadly elusive:

When the blatant similarities between Jelco's arm and Ortofon's TA-100 (http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=273&Itemid=289) (the 110's forerunner) were pointed out, Ortofon's spokespersons went on and on in a few forums claiming (falsely) that it was an all-Ortofon design, developed without assistance from anyone else etc. He even went on to claim it was a dynamically-balanced arm. A few days later, Ortofon came up with the page I've linked to, which states it's a static-balanced arm.

In my eyes, this (absolutely insincere) attitude is EPIC FAIL that goes beyond inducing mass occurences of facepalm, double facepalm and facedesk; it induces something far worse, which is called "implied facepalm", a reaction that occurs when someone's chosen course of action is so ludicrously stupid that a full and proper facepalm is not even necessary - to put it politely.

They could very well have said "we cooperated with Jelco, which we consider to be a very good designer and manufacturer of turntable components and performed this upgrade, that modification etc and so we took the basic design a few steps forward".

This is what they did with the 110, although I'm still not convinced that the 110 is worth 1000GBP over the Jelco 250, as far as engineering is concerned. With the 100, they chose to send someone down a few forums and have him say "Jelco? What Jelco? Nooooo, it's all Ortofon" - and this, for those with a reasonably sensitive FAIL detector, causes the "EPIC FAIL" alert to go off.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 12:31

synsei

26-04-2011, 12:49

I hear you Martin, but ask yourself this question: Could or would Ford attempt to build a car to compete with the new Jag XJ? Frankly no they wouldn't, simply because they know their badge doesn't possess the kudos of Jaguar therefore potential buyers are likely choose a Jag over Ford in the same market sector. Ford are patently aware of this issue, as are Vauxhall, hence why both companies stopped building cars for the executive market (Scorpio & Omega).

Now the same can't be applied to Ortofon and Jelco, as both manufacturers have a similar pedigree and consequently both deservedly enjoy the respect of the punters. The problem Ortofon have is that unlike the Jaguar X-Type, their TA110 looks identical to the Jelco SA-250, albeit with a couple of little tweaks.

As I've already mentioned, I am now rather keen to hear both these arms in a fair side by side test as I am curious to hear the results... :eyebrows:

Barry

26-04-2011, 13:06

I am quite convinced the current Ortofon arms are made for them by Jelco. Whether they are an Ortofon design or not I don't know, but I suspect they were designed by Jelco to a specification provided by Ortofon.

The last arm that I believe was designed wholly by Ortofon, was the AS212 of the 1970s.

Ortofon's reticence in not wanting certain details of manufacture to be known, as it goes against their corporate image, has been displayed before. For example, there are many people who believe that owing to recently introduced EU Health and Safety legislations, some of the manufacturing processes involved in the manufacture of the Ortofon SPU cartridge were outlawed. Whilst Ortofon looked for alternatives to these processes, manufacture of the SPU was out-sourced to Nagaoka in Japan and supplied to Ortofon on an OEM basis. Ortofon flatly deny this, claiming that the SPU design is so important to the company's name and image, that Ortofon would never allow anyone else to make it for them. Maybe - but it is entirely plausable. Clearly Nagaoka will not say, as such an agreement would be a matter of 'commercial in confidence'.

There is/was a similar parallel with the manufacture and assembly of Leica lenses. Most were made in Leitz's home factory in Wetzlar, Germany. But some were manufactured in Canada and in Portugal. Both of these facilities were established by Leica, the personnel trained by Leica and the QA and testing carried out to Leica's strict approval. Yet lenses baring the mark 'Made in Canada' or 'Made in Portugal' were sometimes (and erroneously IMO) viewed with suspicion by stalwart Leica enthusiasts.

No doubt there are those who regard the Finnish manufactured Porches as not being as good as those manufactured in Stuttgart.

Regards

Marco

26-04-2011, 13:13

Hi Martin,

The analogy with Ford/Jaguar is valid but in no way should be criticised from either perspective. From one viewpoint, the Jaguar X-Type is just a Ford Mondeo with relatively small differences and no-one should buy one because clearly the Mondeo offers better value. From another completely different perspective, the Jaguar has a slightly nicer body shape and many different small cues that give it its 'Jaguar-ness' and offers the buyer some of the feel of a proper Jaguar higher up the range, despite its being basically a Mondeo underneath.

Can the difference in price between the Mondeo and Jaguar be justified in material terms? Clearly not, but that's to miss the point entirely. They are positioned in different market sectors and attract completely different buyers. As long as there is a market for it, Jaguar cannot be criticised for using an OEM vehicle to enhance its product range.

Indeed, but then it wouldn't mean that someone on a car forum wasn't entitled to highlight how much more one is paying for a very similar product with a more 'prestigious badge', and how the Mondeo offered much higher 'DPPV' ('Drivability'-Per-Pound-Value), and then in the process gave fair and constructive criticism of the Jaguar... After all, it's all about opinions and free speech :)

And the very same scenario applies here on AoS, in terms of the Jelco and 'Ortofon' tonearms under discussion.

I should point out again that a key factor in the raison d'être of AoS is to champion the best interests of the enthusiast, and not necessarily to protect those of the industry. What's best for the majority of the 'punters' will always come first. I don't care if what is written here is frowed upon by certain people - the truth will always out, regardless!

As an aside, I just don't get the whole badge snobbery thing at all, and the desire to pay through the nose for tiny differences in products, simply to have the kudos of owning a particular marque. This applies to the ownership of any products, not just hi-fi equipment. The mentality is completely alien to me. Thank God I'm not afflicted by it!

Marco.

Marco

26-04-2011, 13:25

Hi Konstantinos,

Remember the repackaged Pioneer DVD that was being sold at a ridiculous price by Goldmund?

Oh yes, I remember that all too well - another shocking and disgraceful example of how the 'hi-end' in audio can be a massive rip-off!

I know of plenty more too, and all deserve to be similarly exposed.

I am quite convinced the current Ortofon arms are made for them by Jelco. Whether they are an Ortofon design or not I don't know, but I suspect they were designed by Jelco to a specification provided by Ortofon.

That is what I also believe, Barry.

What matters most here is that Jelco are credited with the recognition they deserve - and that means with more than being merely manufacturers of 'affordable' tonearms. As a company, they are rather more 'serious' than that, as indeed their 'higher end' products show.

Marco.

MartinT

26-04-2011, 13:44

As an aside, I just don't get the whole badge snobbery thing at all, and the desire to pay through the nose for tiny differences in products, simply to have the kudos of owning a particular marque. This applies to the ownership of any products, not just hi-fi equipment. The mentality is completely alien to me. Thank God I'm not afflicted by it!

Unfortunately, in small ways we're all afflicted by it as it's almost impossible to eradicate brand alliance. Do you buy Heinz baked beans or supermarket brand? Kellog's Corn Flakes or supermarket? Nurofen or generic ibuprofen? If I go on, almost all of us will be caught out sooner or later.

Spectral Morn

26-04-2011, 14:50

The thing is painfully simple, yet sadly elusive:

When the blatant similarities between Jelco's arm and Ortofon's TA-100 (http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=273&Itemid=289) (the 110's forerunner) were pointed out, Ortofon's spokespersons went on and on in a few forums claiming (falsely) that it was an all-Ortofon design, developed without assistance from anyone else etc. He even went on to claim it was a dynamically-balanced arm. A few days later, Ortofon came up with the page I've linked to, which states it's a static-balanced arm.

In my eyes, this (absolutely insincere) attitude is EPIC FAIL that goes beyond inducing mass occurences of facepalm, double facepalm and facedesk; it induces something far worse, which is called "implied facepalm", a reaction that occurs when someone's chosen course of action is so ludicrously stupid that a full and proper facepalm is not even necessary - to put it politely.

They could very well have said "we cooperated with Jelco, which we consider to be a very good designer and manufacturer of turntable components and performed this upgrade, that modification etc and so we took the basic design a few steps forward".

This is what they did with the 110, although I'm still not convinced that the 110 is worth 1000GBP over the Jelco 250, as far as engineering is concerned. With the 100, they chose to send someone down a few forums and have him say "Jelco? What Jelco? Nooooo, it's all Ortofon" - and this, for those with a reasonably sensitive FAIL detector, causes the "EPIC FAIL" alert to go off.

Hi Konstantinos

Can you link to this material on these forums please. We need to be very careful when we use very strong language such as *Falsely* as without a point of reference to examine, it could lead to problems for the forum.

Thank you D S D L

Marco

26-04-2011, 14:51

Unfortunately, in small ways we're all afflicted by it as it's almost impossible to eradicate brand alliance. Do you buy Heinz baked beans or supermarket brand? Kellog's Corn Flakes or supermarket? Nurofen or generic ibuprofen? If I go on, almost all of us will be caught out sooner or later.

I take your point, Martin, but let's just say that I'm afflicted by it rather less than most. Using your examples above, we buy our baked beans (on the few occasions we eat them) from Aldi, which are every bit as good as those from Heinz, and half the price!

In fact, as an aside, many of Aldi (and Lidl's) own brands are of very high quality, as indeed is their fresh produce, and much cheaper too than that from the main supermarkets.

We don't eat cornflakes, or thankfully have the need very often for Ibuprofen, but if we did, we'd examine the packaging and contents carefully first before buying the 'premium branded' goods to ascertain if there would be any advantage in paying the extra for them. I do the very same thing with audio equipment.

Like you, we're fortunate that we can afford nice things, but that doesn't mean it doesn't pay to be frugal or use some common sense, where appropriate, and reduce the chances of being taken for a fool!

I've got multi-millionaire customers in Chester who are even more frugal than I am (the old saying: 'every penny is a prisoner' couldn't be more apt), and one has to work hard to get their business, simply because they didn't achieve their wealthy status by spending their money foolishly ;)

Only the likes of footballer's wifes are vulgar enough to buy things, no matter what they cost, simply because they can afford to do so!

Marco.

Reid Malenfant

26-04-2011, 14:57

Remember the repackaged Pioneer DVD that was being sold at a ridiculous price by Goldmund?
I certainly remember a £500 Oppo blu ray player being given a new case by a well known manufacturer (that i just can't remember the name of right now :doh:) & them asking £2000 for it :eek:

Someone help me out, these are an American firm & known to make high quality processors & other hifi & AV kit :scratch: Expensive stuff to & quite stylish..

DSJR

26-04-2011, 15:01

Theta used a Pioneer as the donor for the DaViD player I seem to remember, HOWEVER, there was much circuitry added around the basic motherboard/mech and they were quite ok with internal pics being published. Bloody good machine in its day I remember and rather better than cheaper players at the time..

Stratmangler

26-04-2011, 15:03

I certainly remember a £500 Oppo blu ray player being given a new case by a well known manufacturer (that i just can't remember the name of right now :doh:) & them asking £2000 for it :eek:

Someone help me out, these are an American firm & known to make high quality processors & other hifi & AV kit :scratch: Expensive stuff to & quite stylish..

Lexicon.

Reid Malenfant

26-04-2011, 15:07

Lexicon.
Thanks Chris, that's the one! ;)

Marco

26-04-2011, 15:09

Aye, rip-off b*stards! I utterly abhor such practice. But then, blame the badge snobs who are daft enough to buy this stuff in the first place :mental:

If the market wasn't there to fleece these fools, then such products wouldn't have been born!!

Marco.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 15:53

Hi Konstantinos

Can you link to this material on these forums please. We need to be very careful when we use very strong language such as *Falsely* as without a point of reference to examine, it could lead to problems for the forum.

Thank you D S D L

Here you go:

http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=23197

I wasn't too keen on the "but it's NOT a Jelco" spin.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 15:55

Lexicon.

Yup, Lexicon. As far as I remember, they didn't tell us what improvements they brought to the original design (if any). And that's too bad, because they're known for making some of the finest studio effects (their PCM80 reverb unit is legendary) and, along with TC Electronic and Eventide, they are among the very finest in this field.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 15:56

BTW, now that Dave C is discontinuing Jelcos, because "SMEs outsell them 10 to 1", where should we look for getting ours?

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 16:06

Mind you, when I had called Ortofon's dealer in Greece when I confronted that guy in the Wired State forums... He told me that Jelco is Ortofon's tonearm ghostbuilder. And here's what controversial guitar salesman/custom builder Ed Roman has to say on ghostbuilding:

http://www.edroman.com/rants/ghost.htm

Some info is outdated, because the article is a bit old: nowadays, Washburn has moved production from no-name Korean factories to no-name Chinese factories and their quality sucks even more than before, D'Angelico has moved production to the Terada factory in Japan (Gretsch makes its guitars there too, Fuji Gen Gakki, which has given us some of Fender Japan's and Ibanez's finest stuff (along with interesting guitars sold under the "Greco" brand - those have also been sold with the Roland moniker, equipped with MIDI controllers for Roland's analogue guitar synths - and Gibson Les Paul copies sold under the "Greco" and "Burny" brands; Steve Hackett plays a Burny) now has its own range that it markets under the Fujigen brand.

Marco

26-04-2011, 16:15

BTW, now that Dave C is discontinuing Jelcos, because "SMEs outsell them 10 to 1", where should we look for getting ours?

In the interests of accuracy, "Because SMEs outsell them 10 to 1", should be translated as:

"Because Dave C makes more money from selling SMEs (the margins are higher), with less hassle from not having to deal direct with Jelco in Japan, therefore SMEs 'outsell' Jelcos, simply because he promotes them more" ;)

As an ex-customer, I know how he works, so it certainly isn't the case that SMEs are outselling Jelcos, as a result of customers having visited him and having done the comparison....!

As for where else to buy Jelcos, I'd say wherever one can obtain genuine examples (there are some inferior copies around) the cheapest! Google is your friend :)

Marco.

P.S Interesting stuff on the 'ghostbuilding', etc!

Ammonite Audio

26-04-2011, 17:33

Best value for Jelcos is Duophonic on eBay. Their shop is at http://stores.ebay.co.uk/duo-phonic?_trksid=p4340.l2563

Spectral Morn

26-04-2011, 18:23

Here you go:

http://www.wiredstate.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=23197

I wasn't too keen on the "but it's NOT a Jelco" spin.

Thank you for the link.

Regards D S D L

MCRU

26-04-2011, 18:31

BTW, now that Dave C is discontinuing Jelcos, because "SMEs outsell them 10 to 1", where should we look for getting ours?

Ours meaning you? If you want a Jelco arm I can sell you one? Good price too. Cartridge? Turntable mat? Weight? Feet? PSU? Platter? Bearing?

I am a 1 stop shop, place your orders now.........:lol:

Seriously though, Jelco sell via many routes, it takes about 3 seconds to find a stockist.

Epicurus

26-04-2011, 18:36

MCRU

26-04-2011, 18:54

Well, here's the deal: as good as the standard "black chrome" SA-750D looks, it looks good only on the 1200; not on my 1210. I need a hybrid: a black SA-750DB with a chrome armwand and counterweight. If that can be done when I'm back on my feet from a fiscal point of view (company's going six feet under these days and I haven't been paid two months now and I'm certainly not going to get this money EVER), I'm all ears.

I have a 1210 with the standard Jelco arm, I think it looks stunning! I have even broken off doing my new website to take some special pictures just for you....:)
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0086.jpg
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0087.jpg

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/DSCF0088.jpg