The Michell Engineering Thread

[DSJR]

Amongst all the discussions regarding Techies (especially), NAS, Avids and more, one turntable maker is always there in the background and that's Michell Engineering.

My experience of John Michell's products is scanty, as I mainly worked for a Linn-orientated dealership who only looked below the lofty LP12 ideal (Rega, Heybrook TT2, Manticore Mantra, AR & Rock (actually far better than a mid 80's LP12 but cheaper, so it couldn't be as good....... etc). John was always utterly polite and helpful to non-dealers of his products and the engineering was always superbly done. He was ready to admit in my 1970's "KJ" days that the early Hydraulic Reference deck was around Rega 2 levels of sonics, although some useful upgrades were forthcoming which lifted it further. I compared a Gyro/RB300/K9/Supply with a Spacedeck/RB300/K9 twenty years ago (before the Orbe) and did find the Spacedeck better on the whole, but the Gyro has come a long way since, to be fair.

I occasionally look on HiFi dave's site to see what's new and amongst the list of links, I clicked on the Michell site. I know the classic Gyrodec has evolved hugely over the thirty years it's been around, and I understand that all the upgrades can be done to oldies too. The Techno-arm is well thought of and again, I understand (I hope this is correct) that Rega supply Michell with the raw parts which Michell modify and either build into complete arms themselves, or Rega do it for them ("citation required here"). The accessories from cartridge tags to record clamps are also well priced and liked on here and elsewhere.

I do know the Gyro works a treat with SME arms (the two balance out superbly in my experience) and a Gyro can be "Orbed" with an add-on kit (is it then as good as a stock Orbe?). Dave informs me that an Orbe is a very good turntable indeed and cheaper now than a Hyperspace I think and the one I'm really interested in hearing about is the baby one - the Technodec - prices and performance levels possible.

I hope you all and the Mods here won't mind me opening this thread, as I think Michell could do with a positive shout. They seem to quietly beaver away making beautifully finished products at sensible prices which are upgradeable and fairly widely available.

Comments anyone?

[chris@panteg]

Good one , Dave

The Orbe is still a Turntable i find hard to resist to be honest , and if someone was to steal my Techie away and put in its place an Orbe , i wouldn't be that upset :)

[Rare Bird]

J.A.Michell are easily one of the best loved TT Manufacturers, at least in my eyes, i love the early products, i've spoke to John on the blower a few times, always willing to help you out with ideas..i don't think i'm wrong in saying they are the longest running British TT manufacture still operating, if i'm wrong i appologise.. Manificent company, the products are a wonder to own & service second to none..John is a real loss to the industry, but the company is still as great as ever.

[DSJR]

A fully tricked out Techie is more costly than an Orbe too remember... :)

[chris@panteg]

I haven't spent that much on mine , and don't forget the SME 309 can be plonked onto an Orbe no problem ,and its a good pairing .

[Beobloke]

A fully tricked out Techie is more costly than an Orbe too remember... :)

...and I know which one I'd pick, personally!:lol:

I carried out a five turntable group test for Hi-Fi World this month and, although all decks were very good, I was quite happy to place the Gyrodec SE/Tecnoarm as the winner. I then noticed that Hi-Fi Choice had put it up against four other turntables in their current issue and it won that too!

Now either the HFC listening panel AND I have got it wrong, or the Gyro really is something of a superlative vinyl spinner. I know which explanation I'd go with..;)

[keiths]

I lusted over a Gyrodec from the first time I set eyes on one. Following a project at work that resulted in lots and lots of overtime, I finally got to own one in the late nineties.

Unfortunately I had to sell it, along with most of my record collection, a few years ago when I found myself in a fairly dire financial position (from which I'm still trying to recover). Would own one again in a flash.

[DSJR]

The Gyro used to sound musical but a bit sloppy with it, the last time I heard one going back eleven years or so. I wonder what the current SE is like in comparison with current bearing, supply and all.....

[Rare Bird]

I'm just waiting for Dave Wren to hand over his 'Prisma' vinyl grinder

It's my Birthday soon you know :lolsign:

[Marco]

Hi Adam,


...and I know which one I'd pick, personally!:lol:


Yesh, but how can you say that when you haven't heard a fully tricked-out Techy in your own system?

And incidentally, that's my version of a fully tricked-out Techy (with MN bearing and platter and Paul Hynes SR5 PSU), not yours ;)


I carried out a five turntable group test for Hi-Fi World this month and, although all decks were very good, I was quite happy to place the Gyrodec SE/Tecnoarm as the winner.


Indeed, and may I say that it was an excellent read. However, I'll ask a slightly contentious question, why wasn't a modified SL-1200 (up to the price of the other T/Ts being reviewed) included in the shoot-out?

You missed a trick there I think, given how popular modifying Techies is at the moment amongst enthusiasts (and I suspect that a significant proportion of the membership of HFW are also members of the main UK forums, such as AoS, pfm, etc, or at least read them), and also because many folks would love to know how a modded Techy would stack up against respected 'proper hi-fi turntables', such as those you reviewed....

Or, and I'm being serious here, is there a reluctance to risk upsetting the applecart, so to speak, by pitching a modded Techy in with T/Ts that the industry likes to promote from established, largely UK, manufacturers?

What I'd like to see is when a modded Techy is being reviewed in HFW, such as the Origin Live one was recently, and the Timestep one will be (hopefully!) next month, is it not reviewed in isolation, but as part of a combined shoot-out with other T/Ts at a similar price point.

Do you think that's ever likely to happen?

Marco.

P.S Agreed on everything written about Michell - superb company and a credit to British businesses! :cool:

[Beobloke]

However, I'll ask a slightly contentious question, why wasn't a modified SL-1200 (up to the price of the other T/Ts being reviewed) included in the shoot-out?

Precisely because the focus of the review was on what you can buy as standard in the £1000-£2000 price range.

In order to equip a Technics to fit into this band, it would have to be purchased and then modified, taking the pick of a whole raft of different modifications from different people and listening to a whole load of different opinions from people who have tried the different methods.

Frankly, it is indeed a bit of a faff unless you like doing that sort of thing - you do, I do and so do many others but a good number of people don't and this would only frighten them off, rather than encourage them to embrace vinyl, which is what we're trying to achieve!

[Spectral Morn]

J.A.Michell are easily one of the best loved TT Manufacturers, at least in my eyes, i love the early products, i've spoke to John on the blower a few times, always willing to help you out with ideas..i don't think i'm wrong in saying they are the longest running British TT manufacture still operating, if i'm wrong i appologise.. Manificent company, the products are a wonder to own & service second to none..John is a real loss to the industry, but the company is still as great as ever.

I agree 100 % with the above.


Regards D S D L

[Marco]

Hi Adam,

Thanks, I get that.

But what's the difference between writing articles on modded Techies, as David, etc, has done frequently in the mag, in separate articles, and including them in a group shoot-out with other T/Ts?

The "faff" of modifying them remains the same for a potential buyer, whether they decide to obtain one as a result of reading a review on its own, or after the results of a group shoot-out.........

No? :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

The best way round this is of course to have a permanent point of reference, such as the Gyro SE and then use this "real world" product to compare various Techie mods and other turntables. It would give a benchmark I think - and probably a darned good one.

The Orbe could also be used as similar for decks costing over £2K as well as the best from yesteryear (a typical LP12 is too much setup faff, can go out of tune easily and although involving to listen to, probably isn't neutral enough still unless one goes the whole hog, which is ridiculous for most of us).

[hifi_dave]

There is as much set-up faff with a Gyro or Orbe as there is a LP12. Difference is you can see it, touch it, turn it, tweak it, adjust it without taking the whole thing apart.

Another thing is you don't need a Magic Guru to set it up every other year when the Moon is full and pay £90/hour + VAT, minimum 3 hours as you do with an LP12....:ner:

[darucla]

On a general point re Michell, I have a Hydraulic Reference which I bought in the mid 70s, passed on to my brother-in-law a few years later, and which returned to me last year after his passing. Not only does it still look superb, it perfoms as well as it ever did. He kept it oiled and replaced belts etc, but nothing else has been done to it.

Dealing with Michell when I wanted a new arm board was a breath of fresh air. I dealt with real people who knew about the product and were courteous, warm and helpful. After becoming hardened to the levels of "service" that are the norm today, it almost restored my faith in humanity.

[Spectral Morn]

The best way round this is of course to have a permanent point of reference, such as the Gyro SE and then use this "real world" product to compare various Techie mods and other turntables. It would give a benchmark I think - and probably a darned good one.

The Orbe could also be used as similar for decks costing over £2K as well as the best from yesteryear (a typical LP12 is too much setup faff, can go out of tune easily and although involving to listen to, probably isn't neutral enough still unless one goes the whole hog, which is ridiculous for most of us).

I have been doing this very thing for quite a few months now but I am not yet prepared to publish my findings yet, as I still have a few stones to look under before I am satisfied I have covered most of the bases.


Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

Michell turntables are fairly easy to set up (ime) and get right. Main trick/slight difficulty is in getting the suspension to bounce right other than that the rest is easy compared to some.

Deck I least liked working on was the Roksan Xerxes :( any version including the most recent. Done Linn's too, what's the great mystery ?....it was wee buns and I was complemented afterwards, being told it was the best sounding Linn this person had ever heard.


Regards D S D L

[lurcher]

Well, if the setup is that much faff, and I assume its not a one time only thing, then isn't the "just the once" hassle of getting and modifying a 1200 actually less hassle and less variable in terms of a comparison review?

Isn't there dealers out there that can supply a 1200 with a set of mods already installed. Could that not form the basis of its inclusion in a group review?

[Marco]

I have been doing this very thing for quite a few months now but I am not yet prepared to publish my findings yet, as I still have a few stones to look under before I am satisfied I have covered most of the bases.


It'll be interesting finding out your thoughts, Neil, once you've looked under a few more pebble-ettes... :eyebrows:

Going back to what I was discussing before with Adam, what I'd like to see HFW do is utilise the facilities on their nice new website, by asking people which products they'd like to see reviewed, rather than trying to second-guess what folks are looking for, or worrying about 'putting them off vinyl' by simply lobbing a 'faff-filled' modded Techy into the mix during T/T shoot-outs! ;)

Requests could simply be emailed in, as is the case with info submitted to the reader's letters pages, and then popular requests fulfilled, if possible. Or is that too simple and there's something I'm missing??

I'd feel quite certain that if the question were asked: 'Dear readers, would you like to see a modded SL-1200 pitched into a £2k T/T shoot-out?', there would be more than a little interest! Especially as HFW receive queries all the time about the Technics (I read the letters sent in every month) and because modifying them is currently rather popular amongst genuine enthusiasts, both on forums and in general.

Therefore, it's high time that this was done by one of the magazines, and I'd like to think that HFW had the balls............?

I say "balls" because, call me cynical, but it's my firm belief that one of the main reasons that this hasn't happened so far, is because it would be frowned upon by certain UK T/T manufacturers, or other 'hi-end' T/T manufacturers, keen to protect their own commercial interests, as let's face it, if such a comparison were to happen, those of us who know what a judiciously modded Techy is capable of, sonically, would also know that it most certainly wouldn't disgrace itself ;)

So let's see which one of the mags has got the required 'cohonas'!! Or have we simply to put up with the 'same old, same old', play it safe, let's keep the main players happy, malarkey, forevermore? :rolleyes:

Marco.

[Marco]

Well, if the setup is that much faff, and I assume its not a one time only thing, then isn't the "just the once" hassle of getting and modifying a 1200 actually less hassle and less variable in terms of a comparison review?

Isn't there dealers out there that can supply a 1200 with a set of mods already installed. Could that not form the basis of its inclusion in a group review?

Very good point, Nick!

Adam? :)

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Once set up most of my experience would suggest that a Michell Gyrodeck or Orbe will stay set up at least those I have set up. I sold them, I built them and never saw them again except to change carts or arms.

One of the last Michell Gyro SE's I sold and set up (SME 309 arm on it, before I was made redundant) I recently fitted a new cart to it for the owner. Well the deck was still 100% right (set up three years ago) and all I had to do was fit cart, balance arm and adjust arm height....simples :)


Regards D S D L

[blake]

I've owned my Gyrodec since the mid 80's, acquiring it at an auction for next to nothing. It was a very early Gyro, actually had soft feet on it when I got it, which were replaced with the aluminum conical version at that time.

When I became "re-interested" in vinyl a number of years ago, I upgraded the main bearing, platter, springs and suspension posts. The AC motor still works flawlessly and I am plugged into a decent line conditioner and have not felt the need to change to the DC motor. Michell should be commended for their committment to their products as well as their reasonable (by most standards anyway) prices with respect to ongoing improvements/upgrades. My dust cover was a bit hacked up and actually split a number of years ago so I had a new black version (to give it that Stealth Bomber look) fabricated by a local plastics company.

With the new two piece suspension posts the table is a breeze to set up. I can't think of anything being any more simple actually, unless you are looking at a non-suspended table with adjustable feet for levelling (just one setup issue instead of two). It's been an excellent table, offering great performance and pride of ownership as a result of its interesting looks and I have no desire to switch to anything else.

[Spectral Morn]

It'll be interesting finding out your thoughts, Neil, once you've looked under a few more pebble-ettes... :eyebrows:

No problem.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

To be fair to Linn, the main problem was in using a wooden plinth with variable mounting blocks. Some earlier ones were soft and crushed easily, others were hard and didn't compress overmuch. yes, in the early days until 1991, I tightened up everything very firmly and this, with the P clip and arm cable correctly dressed, tended to make these early decks stable after a year or so. LP12's made since the early nineties were far better again, falling together in setup and only needing hand-tightness on the mounting block bolts (I could discuss the finer points with Neil for hours, but not tonight please :)).

I agree about getting the Gyro and Orbe to work right (the Thorens decks were similar in this respect), but the advantage of these decks staying set up and "in tune" once done is so important to a non-fanatic music lover.

Marco, I do see your points above, but HFW is catering for a tiny enough audience as it is and although I don't know the figures, the number of interested Techie parties wanting to severely upgrade a now obsolete deck must be counted in the very low hundreds tops. No offense meant at all, but wild tweaks to the techie is small taties in the big wide world and I understand that the deck will not be made again once stocks have gone unless I'm very much mistaken.....

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

I take your point, but it doesn't discount what Nick (lurcher) wrote earlier - or the fact that there are likely more SL-1200s/1210s in existence WORLDWIDE, for possible sale on the second-hand market to those who *may* decide to go down the Techy modification route, after reading a favourable review in a leading hi-fi magazine (if a modded Techy had been pitched against 'the usual suspects' in a shoot-out, and perhaps come out on top), as there will be total sales of any 'hi-end' turntables produced now for many years to come!!

That, for me, makes the subject VERY relevant, and far from being "small taties". Also, vinyl and T/Ts are in a state of resurgence, and I don't see that situation changing anytime soon - in fact, it's more likely to gain even more momentum, as people slowly but surely ditch CD and go the streaming route.

I believe that vinyl will eventually replace CD (oh the irony!) as the choice of discerning audio enthusiasts who want an alternative to digital computer audio (i.e. folks like me who need more than one quality music source), and the longer the vinyl resurgence continues, and more new products are released onto the market, the less T/T ownership will be the preserve of the middle-aged (and older), and thus its future more likely secured.

Returning to the modded Techy, I believe that it could still provide a vital role in helping the above become a reality (it matters not that it's now discontinued, as there are so bloody many of them in circulation!) so personally, I want to do whatever it takes for those in the market to buy, say, a Roksan or a Gyrodec, to at least consider a modded SL-1200 ALSO as a VIABLE OPTION, and the magazines should be playing a role in promoting this.....

I'll certainly be continuing championing the modded Techy on AoS, indefinitely, and I know that what I write here has *some* influence ;)

Marco.

[DSJR]

No probs at all with that. I still don't think that vinyl will oust CD, but streaming audio probably will. Todays youngsters/music buyers don't really appreciate the joys of "handling" the medium, but maybe that will change. I hope so anyway :)

[Marco]

Todays youngsters/music buyers don't really appreciate the joys of "handling" the medium...


That's certainly not my experience, Dave. My experience is that, for obvious reasons, today's youngsters don't very often get the chance to 'handle' the medium, but when they do, love every minute of it and think that vinyl is 'way cool'! ;)

What I'd love to do is expose more youngsters to it, and hopefully that'll happen when today's dads, in their 20s and 30s, who are into hi-fi and music, buy some of the many (superb) new turntables which are currently for sale, and thus the bug is transfered to their siblings, creating a new (albeit small), but still significant, new generation of vinyl lovers, for many years to come.......

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I still don't think that vinyl will oust CD, but streaming audio probably will.
Agreed, not a chance ;) They'll still need the CDs to get an image as otherwise they'll be dealing with MP3 or being illegal by file sharing :eyebrows:

After all it's got to come from somewhere...

[Marco]

Yup - what I meant, Mark, was vinyl eventually 'ousting' CD, in the eyes of discerning enthusiasts, such as the folks who post here and on other specialist audio forums, as well as *some* of those who buy hi-fi mags.

Those guys will all slowly but surely ditch CD in favour of streaming, and so vinyl will replace CD as their other quality source of recorded music :)

It's what I think will happen, anyway. YMMV.

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

I'm getting to the stage now that i can no longer bare to use a CD player, it's taking a back seat in a simular way that vinyl did for me a few years ago.I just feel that i'm getting the sound now that i've been trying to get for donkies years without them.I have to still buy CD's tho.Of course i miss the whole hands on experience but thats no good if i'm not happy with the sound.

[Reid Malenfant]

Ah, gotcha Marco ;) Yes, that wouldn't surprise me...

I'm even considering trying it out myself, streaming that is :eyebrows:

[Tim]

Those guys will all slowly but surely ditch CD in favour of streaming, and so vinyl will replace CD as their other quality source of recorded music :)
I totally agree with that, CD sales keep plummeting whereas vinyl sales are on the up. I can see CD prices rising as sales drop and from my point of view, if there are quality audio files available to download, I will probably go with that or switch to vinyl. I don't think vinyl will ever disappear as a medium, whereas the future of CD looks bleak IMO.

[Marco]

Nice one, Mark.

Totally agree, Tim - spot on and well said. You've summed it nicely! :)

Marco.

[MCRU]

Streaming is ace! Must admit the expert streamer is on another forum, Mat he is called and he wrote a fantastic piece all about the subject. So I got myself a squeezbox touch and connected it to my dacmagic then to my pre-amp, had a few cd's stored on my pc anyway in another room, the squeezbox accesses them and I can even control it with my HTC Desire, saved me a few quid as I was gonna buy a new cd player then thought what's the point in fiddling about, I am buying a NAS drive next and will burn roughly 300 cd's onto it with a programme called EAC then the squeezbox streams them wirelessly to my gear or vai ethernet, it's so bloody simple and to top it all you get 100's of free internet radio stations inlcuding my favourite dance.fm

It really is a no brainer, £165 for squeezbox touch, dacmagic £150 ish, NAS £200 and you are playing hi-res files stored in another room on a pc and it sounds, well we all know how they sound when played back properly!

[Marco]

That's defo the future, David! :)

However, how do you find it sounds compared to your Techy, when playing your fav 12" dance singles?

Marco.

[MCRU]

There is a small part of the brain that deals with emotion, when you are sat listening to sister sledge that part of the brain is being fed information from your eyes and ears together, the ears hear the song but more importantly the eyes see the record spinning round on that magnificent chunk of analogue history that is the Technics SL1210, there is no comparison with ANY other device for playing music. All other modes of music playback pale into insignificance, hell now I have the Oyaide headshell I want to eat it it looks so damn good.

[Tim]

It really is a no brainer, £165 for squeezbox touch, dacmagic £150 ish, NAS £200 and you are playing hi-res files stored in another room on a pc and it sounds, well we all know how they sound when played back properly!
It's quite a revelation the first time you put it all together - I must say I was baffled how a relatively cheap laptop and a good DAC could outperform some very high value CDP's. I've built my own music server now and have something that performs the same as the new generation 'high-end' streamers, which quite frankly are ridiculously priced, as they are just very basic computers in fancy boxes :scratch: I do still like to have the CD though, for the artwork etc and don't really like downloads, but it is as Marco says 'the future'.

[MartinT]

Deck I least liked working on was the Roksan Xerxes

Yep, I grew to hate mine as the rubber bushes and top deck sagged and that bl**dy motor mounting with its bearing angle and spring was maddening.

Back to Michell: I had a Syncro and, for the money, it was a superbly engineered bit of kit. I wish I hadn't sold it. Fantastic looker, too.

http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/g/michell_syncro.jpg

[Alex_UK]

I've lusted after a Michell for decades - purely based on the looks and engineering I have to say, as I've never heard one.

[Spectral Morn]

Yep, I grew to hate mine as the rubber bushes and top deck sagged and that bl**dy motor mounting with its bearing angle and spring was maddening.

Back to Michell: I had a Syncro and, for the money, it was a superbly engineered bit of kit. I wish I hadn't sold it. Fantastic looker, too.

http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/g/michell_syncro.jpg

The Syncro was a nice TT too :) sold and built a few of those in my day as well...the memories come flooding back of setting up and building interesting turntables back in the late 80's to mid 90's :)


Regards D S D L

[Rare Bird]

Yep, I grew to hate mine as the rubber bushes and top deck sagged and that bl**dy motor mounting with its bearing angle and spring was maddening.

Back to Michell: I had a Syncro and, for the money, it was a superbly engineered bit of kit. I wish I hadn't sold it. Fantastic looker, too.



Aye i loved both my old 'Syncro' & 'Mycro', more so the 'Syncro' Thats a Mk.II you have pictured

[The Grand Wazoo]

Ha - it didn't take long for The Michell Engineering Thread to turn into another discussion of 'that' turntable - Get back Satan!

I've owned a Gyro since about 1991 when they were still mainly considered to be not much more than something that was interesting to look at. I bought it because it just sounded better to me than all the others - I loved it then & I love it still but it took quite some time to become respected for what they could do. It does the recreation of a soundstage better than any other turntable I've heard. As for setting them up, I never had a problem with it, & that's mainly because you can do it from above with it sitting in the exact same place as it will be used. It never drifts out of true & because of this, it's totally reliable.

The company are great, treating customers as real people rather than something to exploit. John was a true gent - I remember the several times he spent giving me his undivided attention & patience.

[Marco]

Indeed, Chris, and that's what you get when hi-fi companies are run first and foremost by audio enthusiasts and music lovers, as well as businessmen: folk who see their customers as rather more than simply 'punters' or 'pound signs', which is sadly a minority occurrence these days!!

Marco.

[DSJR]

I still like NAS because there's no faffing involved. The Michell products seem to nestle neatly in between them.

Dave tells me the little Tecnodec is £608, I assume plus arm. Looks to be a bargain if it sounds ok for the money.

[Rare Bird]

J.A.Michell was my first propar turntable & actually the last turntable i used. If i were to get back into Vinyl (Chances are the same as hell freezing over) it would again be a Michell

[MartinT]

Aye i loved both my old 'Syncro' & 'Mycro', more so the 'Syncro' Thats a Mk.II you have pictured

That's the one I had, from memory. Unfortunately I bought a Helius Aureus arm for it. Big mistake.

[Rare Bird]

That's the one I had, from memory. Unfortunately I bought a Helius Aureus arm for it. Big mistake.

Well the Mk.I has rounded corners on both the deck & Lid, My 'Syncro' came with a Rega 'RB250' fitted, i did buy a Black Acrylic Armboard to fit Mayware 'F4' arm but never got around to it.

[MartinT]

Well the Mk.I has rounded corners on both the deck & Lid

Thanks for reminding me, mine was a Mk. I then.

[DSJR]

I'm wondering if the Rega was the best choice of arm for these. A Jelco of whatever persuasion may have been better suited possibly...

[hifi_dave]

Early Michell turntables were supplied with Linn Basik or LVX arms for cheapness and because Rega wouldn't supply. As a Rega dealer I bought Michell turntables and fitted my own arms until Rega had upped production and supplied direct.

[Neil McCauley]

To be fair to Linn.......

Why?

[Neil McCauley]

Meanwhile FYI > http://bit.ly/etLg78

[Marco]

To be fair to Linn.......


Why?

:lolsign:

Marco.