View Full Version : Valve,Solid State whats the difference ?
Border Riever
12-04-2011, 09:53
Well here goes my first question so be gentle on me :mental:
What are the differences in valve and solid state amps in all aspects I.E sound and maintenance.
I must admit that iv'e never heard a valve amp before but they do look quite funky.
Cheers Jerry
jantheman
12-04-2011, 10:04
Well here goes my first question so be gentle on me :mental:
What are the differences in valve and solid state amps in all aspects I.E sound and maintenance.
I must admit that iv'e never heard a valve amp before but they do look quite funky.
Cheers Jerry
There you have it....:lol:
Reid Malenfant
12-04-2011, 10:42
Assuming that both valve & solid state amps are properly designed they should sound very similar if not the same at the end of the day ;)
For instance, if a push pull valve amp is biased into full class A & a low amount of feedback is used i'd expect a similarly biased transitorised amplifier also with low feedback to sound just as good.
The problem with solid state amps is they need huge heatsinks to keep the transistors cool, where as with valve amplifiers the output tubes tend to be able to dissipate a fair bit without resorting to bolting on massive bits of metal ;)
What tends to happen is transistorised amps are biased in class B or AB to save money on big lumps of alloy and at this point a fair amount of overall feedback is often needed to reduce the distortion thus created due to insufficient bias current on the output stage & the resulting crossover distortion :rolleyes: This tends to make amplifiers less musical :doh:
Given the same topology though they'll be similar sound wise.
For instance, if a push pull valve amp is biased into full class A & a low amount of feedback is used i'd expect a similarly biased transitorised amplifier also with low feedback to sound just as good.
Problem is with that entirly sensible statement is I have never found in practice it to be true.
In a perfect world, valve and transistor amps should sound the same as each other, but in reality this isn't the case.
At the end of the day, I find one can get into an emotional relationship with a good audio system and glowing valves do help with this enormously I find :) the thing is, to "do" valve power amps properly, consistently and reliably requires expensive transformers, which, because they're no longer made in huge numbers as they were in the 50's and early 60's, won't be cheap. The current valves can be quite good if lacking the charm and colourations? of old ones.
If like me, you don't have thousands of pounds to spend on decent valve gear like TD or Tron (to think of two goodies away from the over-hyped US stuff), yet want the magic, then Glenn Croft's "hybrid" designs should be given VERY serious consideration. Glenn claims his Series 7 amp is better than the all-valve Series 4S and I agree in the context of a neutral amp, usable with a huge variety of speakers that doesn't change the sonics fed it unduly.
I haven't mentioned the cheaper valve products, let alone the kits available, as I just don't know them if truth be told, but some of the WD kits are rated highly as well as the Puresound amps, which are now well over a grand I think.
Trickie_Dickie
12-04-2011, 11:26
Well, now there's the question.:scratch:
Valves are voltage fed devices that like to drive current into speakers.
Transistors are current fed devices that like to drive voltage into speakers.
Got that? Clear now, innit? :cool::mental::lolsign:
Transistors are current fed devices that like to drive voltage into speakers.
Small correction.
Bipolar transistors are current fed devices that like to drive voltage into speakers.
Vinyleyes
12-04-2011, 14:08
Well here goes my first question so be gentle on me :mental:
What are the differences in valve and solid state amps in all aspects I.E sound and maintenance.
I must admit that iv'e never heard a valve amp before but they do look quite funky.
Cheers Jerry
What I am going to say is a VERY generalistic view of the commonly held perceptions of some of the differences between valves and solid state. As such .. I am making certain assumptions and I do not expect to be shot down by other, far more knowledgeable, people on this forum as I am just attempting to give you an idea here as a starting point.... ;)
There are as many if not more different sound characteristics between different types of valve amplifiers as there are between SS amps. Older valve amps were characterised by a smoother sound and less well defined bass production than SS amps .. this gave rise to the still held ( by the uninformed) that valve amps are inferior in some respects to SS amps which revel in bass slam and detail production. To many that SS performance came at the expense of a certain sweetness and correctness of the mid range tones .. particulary delicate vocals and acoustics .. in fact .. many older SS amps to my ears anway sounded too clinical as if the sound was etched in glass .. however some people prefer that so I am not saying it is a fault.
Nowadays however there are valve amps that can rock with the best and pound out perfectly adequate bass reproduction and fine detail.
Really it comes down to what is your preference ... and to a certain extent .,. what speakers you want to run ..
A 20 wpc valve amp typically gives as much pound for pound perfomance as an SS amp of up to 60wpc ... and if you match a low powered valve amp with sensitive speakers from 90 db and upwards then you have a huge sound with all that glorious mid range and treble sweetness that only a very few SS amps can match ... and you have plenty of volume and bass performance.
However if you want to run heavy speaker loads then uness you can pay a fortune for your valves .. you are going to be looking at Solid state.
The advice is as always ... go and have a listen to as many systems as you can ... and figure out yourself where your priorities lie..
:cool:
anthonyTD
12-04-2011, 18:45
What I am going to say is a VERY generalistic view of the commonly held perceptions of some of the differences between valves and solid state. As such .. I am making certain assumptions and I do not expect to be shot down by other, far more knowledgeable, people on this forum as I am just attempting to give you an idea here as a starting point.... ;)
There are as many if not more different sound characteristics between different types of valve amplifiers as there are between SS amps. Older valve amps were characterised by a smoother sound and less well defined bass production than SS amps .. this gave rise to the still held ( by the uninformed) that valve amps are inferior in some respects to SS amps which revel in bass slam and detail production. To many that SS performance came at the expense of a certain sweetness and correctness of the mid range tones .. particulary delicate vocals and acoustics .. in fact .. many older SS amps to my ears anway sounded too clinical as if the sound was etched in glass .. however some people prefer that so I am not saying it is a fault.
Nowadays however there are valve amps that can rock with the best and pound out perfectly adequate bass reproduction and fine detail.
Really it comes down to what is your preference ... and to a certain extent .,. what speakers you want to run ..
A 20 wpc valve amp typically gives as much pound for pound perfomance as an SS amp of up to 60wpc ... and if you match a low powered valve amp with sensitive speakers from 90 db and upwards then you have a huge sound with all that glorious mid range and treble sweetness that only a very few SS amps can match ... and you have plenty of volume and bass performance.
However if you want to run heavy speaker loads then uness you can pay a fortune for your valves .. you are going to be looking at Solid state.
The advice is as always ... go and have a listen to as many systems as you can ... and figure out yourself where your priorities lie..
:cool:
Very well put Brian,
there are at least as many bad valve amps out there as there are solid state, when i say bad i mean soul less, having no musicality etc, As others have stated, its just a case of either knowing a paticular designers products and trusting their design philosophy, or going and having a listen to as many amplifiers [valve and solid state ] as you can and making up your own mind which is best suited to your ears.
Anthony,TD...
Going to a number of dealers "for a listen" doesn't keep them in business any more, sadly.
Wait! I know the answer to this one; valves are made out of glass……………
(where’s my prize then?) :lolsign:
anthonyTD
12-04-2011, 19:17
Wait! I know the answer to this one; valves are made out of glass……………
(where’s my prize then?) :lolsign:
:scratch:
Title of thread: "Valve,Solid State whats the difference?"
John says:
Wait! I know the answer to this one; valves are made out of glass……………
Come on, daftee, WAKE UP!! :lol: ;)
Marco.
Trickie_Dickie
13-04-2011, 05:30
Wait! I know the answer to this one; valves are made out of glass……………
(where’s my prize then?) :lolsign:
Errr.......
Glass is made with silicon (dioxide).........:mental:
You could also see if there are any members in traveling distance so you can hear a few systems. Most of us tend to have valve amps, but some of the guys have very nice solid state based systems, so should be possible to hear a few valve based systems without any commitment
greenhomeelectronics
13-04-2011, 08:08
I have, until recently been a transistor man, the acquisition of a Chinese valve amp changed all that. I had picked up a low end Yaqin that I intended to sell on but was so impressed with the sound per pound that I started experimenting and now my life is in ruins:lol: There is a certain quality about valves that I find difficult to put in to words but I know I have rarely heard anything close in solid state. It's kind of an open sound that surrounds you and makes it feel like you are in the sound rather that the sound being in front of you. I don't suppose that makes much sense unless you have experienced it. As previous posters have stated, there are many different ways in which valve amps can be configured, each design has it's own characteristics. Our valve amp, for example is switchable between ultra linear and triode modes. I much prefer UL on rock when the sound is crisper and more punchy, triode works best for me on classical and vocal, the sound is more relaxed and refined. We made ours switchable to appeal to a wider audience, at the end of the day any design is a compromise to get the best all round performance, different people like different characteristics, there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" solution.
If you have never heard a decent valve amp it is well worth making the effort to do so, careful though it can be incredibly addictive:)
Dave.
This is the difference I think between ruthless "monitoring" of the source recording, or the pure emotional enjoyment of the music coming from a DOMESTIC playback system.
My Croft preamp DOES sound accurate and neutral enough with the valves I've fitted (including the supply valves), but as you say Dave, there is an indefineable "something" about the reproduction which makes me reluctant to remove it from my main setup. The AVI preamp upstairs can sound as good and of course it measures impeccably, but the phono stage needs 3/4hr or so to even begin to let the sound "flow" and it's just too quietly efficient for the heart. It's line-buffer is a highly biased Class A stage though and the metal can output transistors run quite hot.
As for the "Crofted" Quad II's. I brought them down yesterday and conform that they're as gloriously coloured sounding as ever, but sooooooo wonderful nonetheless :lol:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Croft4PPrecap1.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/AVIPre1.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/QuadIIcropped.jpg
Hi Dave,
Every single audio component ever made, bar none, exhibits a 'sonic signature' of some description, and thus imparts said 'signature' or 'character' onto the music signal, both valve-based and solid-state equipment.
That is an undisputable fact. Therefore, don't be fooled into thinking that the AVI is somehow more 'accurate', just because it may measure better! ;)
It too will have its own brand of coloration, inherent in its design.
There is a tendency for people to assume that solid-state amps are somehow more 'accurate' than valve amps (largely because they've been brainwashed, through marketing, into believing this), which may be true in some cases (in an electrical sense, although perhaps not in a musical one), but nevertheless, it's an absolute largely borne out of ignorance and/or overly simplistic thinking.
The question is, which 'brand of coloration', between that of the Croft or AVI, when reproducing recorded music, is likely better to faithfully replicate the natural colorations and distortions present in real instruments and voices (tonal colour, timbre, phrasing, etc - all essential in order to create a notion of realism)?
*That*, Dave, me ol' mucker, is what matters..... And for me, so far to date, properly designed valve amps do this better.
After all, all we're doing at the end of the day with our audio hobby is choosing our favoured brand of coloration - nothing more. True accuracy is but a pipedream!
Marco.
This is the difference I think between ruthless "monitoring" of the source recording, or the pure emotional enjoyment of the music coming from a DOMESTIC playback system.
My Croft preamp DOES sound accurate and neutral enough with the valves I've fitted (including the supply valves), but as you say Dave, there is an indefineable "something" about the reproduction which makes me reluctant to remove it from my main setup. The AVI preamp upstairs can sound as good and of course it measures impeccably, but the phono stage needs 3/4hr or so to even begin to let the sound "flow" and it's just too quietly efficient for the heart. It's line-buffer is a highly biased Class A stage though and the metal can output transistors run quite hot.
As for the "Crofted" Quad II's. I brought them down yesterday and conform that they're as gloriously coloured sounding as ever, but sooooooo wonderful nonetheless :lol:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Croft4PPrecap1.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/AVIPre1.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/QuadIIcropped.jpg
What are the extra valves for in the 'Crofted' Quad, Dave? Power supply regulation? Oh, and what is the extra fuse doing, is it on the speaker output?
Regards
It has been said (and not by Ash either ;)) that below a certain level, equipment becomes all but transparent to the signal and I do feel that this is true to an extent, as the fine details we hear are not that low in level (less than 40db down I believe). Having said that, you're quite right and it's amazing how subtle intermodulation effects can ruin the perceived sonics. Regarding amps, I really do feel that the amp should be matched to the type of speaker being driven, as high damping-factor crowns like mine won't sound "musical" with a tightly damped sealed box model I fear, yet the extra control on lightly damped ported models such as mine is very beneficial.
I think we do share the same basic views here Marco, but it's a lot to type and best shared over a pint or three methinks ;)
I remember a notable dem once where a Crown amp was compared with a cap-coupled Radford integrated (integrated version of the mid 70's ZD22 preamp). Into one speaker the Crown had more bass, but into another, the bass disappeared and the Radford had far more, albeit a bit boomy.
Enjoy what you feel is right for you. I wish I could afford to look at a TD power amp, but I can't, so a Croft Series 7R will be my amp of choice one day :)
What are the extra valves for in the 'Crofted' Quad, Dave? Power supply regulation? Oh, and what is the extra fuse doing, is it on the speaker output?
Regards
The fuse inside replaces the old large fuse-holder Quad fitted, which is bypassed. Glenn fitted a regulated supply inside (the two valves) which drops the power output slightly to 12W or so. I don't know the rationale behind this, but they sure do sound better than the originals, without destroying the fundamental Quad II character. I ran them for a few hours yesterday at low volume and they seem quiet and discreet, but the choke-cans don't arf get hot (both the same).
anthonyTD
13-04-2011, 09:48
Errr.......
Glass is made with silicon (dioxide).........:mental:
My point exactly! ;)
marco, YOU WAKE UP!
:lolsign:
Anthony,TD...
It's all just GLASS to me! :lol:
Marco.
I think we do share the same basic views here Marco, but it's a lot to type and best shared over a pint or three methinks ;)
Sounds great to me, but will you ever move yo' ass from the environs of bloody Suffolk??? :doh: :lol:
And yes, the 'relationship' between an amplifier (both SS and valve), and the speakers it's driving, is a very important one!
Marco.
Border Riever
13-04-2011, 10:00
Wow some great and well written answers even if some of the more technical reply's are a bit out of my grasp atm.
The problem for me would be getting to have a listen to some of these valves as we only really have two shops that really specialize in Hi-Fi and visiting both I can remember never seeing any and if they did I wouldn't imagine that there would be a not lot of choice.Saying that though in no way am I unhappy with the sound I already have it just seems to be curiosity thinking have I done the right thing or could have gone down a different path.
Anyway I wont babble on to much but thanks once again for all of your answers greatly acknowledged and appreciated.
Jerry
They're not cheap now, but try a vintage Rogers Cadet III amp to get a taste of old fashioned valves... An Audio Innovations 300? integrated may be worth a punt as well for a softer sounding amp and if you don't like it, can be sold on without loss. For higher money and better, a Croft Micro/Super Micro preamp and Series 5 power amp would be a wondefrful bridge between old and new thinking.
Or try one of Dave (greenhome electronics) new valve amps..... ;)
Are we forgetting that the good man has just invested a not inconsiderable sum in launching a new business?
His amps are well-priced, well specified, well built, and very likely to sound 'well good'!!
Marco.
but try a vintage Rogers Cadet III amp to get a taste of old fashioned valves
Problem with the Cadet, is what you are actually hearing is the preamp part of it. if you bipass the pre and just take the input directly to the vol pot, you discover its capable of a taste of modern valves as well.
But as Marco says, the greenhome electronics looks to be as good a way in as any, and much more flexible I would expect with choice of speakers than something like the Cadet.
anthonyTD
13-04-2011, 12:27
Problem with the Cadet, is what you are actually hearing is the preamp part of it.
if you bipass the pre and just take the input directly to the vol pot, you discover its capable of a taste of modern valves as well.
totaly agree!
But as Marco says, the greenhome electronics looks to be as good a way in as any, and much more flexible I would expect with choice of speakers than something like the Cadet.
+1:)
Apologies to Dave, I had all but forgotten about these :doh:
greenhomeelectronics
13-04-2011, 13:05
Don't worry, Dave I will keep reminding you:lol:
S'ok, he's at that funny age! ;)
Marco.
Border Riever
14-04-2011, 07:32
Hows the price on maintaining these valves I.E cost of the valves themselves and also got me wondering are they hard to find lets say for the earlier models?
Hi Jerry,
Are you talking about the valves used in Dave's amp or just the cost of valves in general?
It varies a lot, depending on which type they are. If by "earlier models" you mean 'NOS': New Old Stock (vintage) ones, then they can get very expensive indeed.
I wouldn't go for NOS when you're just starting out with valves, as it's somewhat of a minefield, and you can quite easily get stung. Stick to the better quality current production stuff, to start off with, and take things from there.
Two good sites to browse to get an idea of the costs of valves, and what's available, are those of Watford Valves and Langrex. Just Google them, and have a mooch around their listing, checking out stuff like EL34s, ECC83s, ECC82s, 6SN7s, and such like :cool:
Marco.
It also depends on the design and implementation of the circuit. Good old Quads and Radfords will run their output valves quite gently and my Quads have three original GEC KT66's from 1962 which measured up fine around fifty hours' use ago. I do still feel stung though regarding a pair of Tube Technology Genesis mono amps I owned, which thrashed their quartet of EL34's to 100W each, the amps sounding shot to pieces after a year of daily "evening" use. Had the power been halved, these valves would have lasted several times longer I reckon. The replacement groove tubes wouldn't bias up properly on one amp either, yet the other one sounded lovely. I changed to a Croft OTL and opened another can of worms. Had I gone with instinct and bought some similarly priced (to the TT's) EAR 509's, I'd probably still have them, and on the original valves too ;)
Border Riever
15-04-2011, 08:46
Yes I was just wondering about the price of valves in general.
I guess I'm going to have to get out and find out for myself wether or not it would be worth going down the valve route before I spend money elsewhere.
If you get a sensible and under-rated design, the valves will last for many years. I suspect the more sensible WD kits would be ok, as would the Croft Series 5 (EL84's are still cheap from memory).
Don't worry, Dave I will keep reminding you:lol:
Any more info guv'nor?
JazzBones
15-04-2011, 11:24
It also depends on the design and implementation of the circuit. Good old Quads and Radfords will run their output valves quite gently and my Quads have three original GEC KT66's from 1962 which measured up fine around fifty hours' use ago. I do still feel stung though regarding a pair of Tube Technology Genesis mono amps I owned, which thrashed their quartet of EL34's to 100W each, the amps sounding shot to pieces after a year of daily "evening" use. Had the power been halved, these valves would have lasted several times longer I reckon. The replacement groove tubes wouldn't bias up properly on one amp either, yet the other one sounded lovely. I changed to a Croft OTL and opened another can of worms. Had I gone with instinct and bought some similarly priced (to the TT's) EAR 509's, I'd probably still have them, and on the original valves too ;)
DaveO, I remember those amps, if you where Roman Catholic just looking at those babes put mortal sin on your soul and damned you forever :)
Off to the confessional box now :eyebrows:
:o
The Black Adder
15-04-2011, 12:18
Nutshell = "Valve just sounds different..."
Without gettin hung up on both do what I did... try it.. you will either like it or not really.
Yes I was just wondering about the price of valves in general.
I guess I'm going to have to get out and find out for myself wether or not it would be worth going down the valve route before I spend money elsewhere.
Indeed, Jerry, always the best way... If you fancy a trip down to North Wales sometime (it ain't that far away), you'd be very welcome, and I'll let you hear just what valves can do ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
15-04-2011, 13:09
:lolsign:
Once he's had a listen you can then sit him down gently before letting him know how much the copper amp & valves cost :eyebrows: Just so he doesn't get the wrong idea like :ner:
Nothing like a baptism of fire, mate, is there! :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
greenhomeelectronics
16-04-2011, 09:25
Most common valves are still being produced by various companies in China and Russia, they are generally good quality and can be very cheap. Be carefull though as some are advertised as equivalents but with different pin outs to the originals. We will be offering sets of replacement valves for our amp, I expect the price to come in at about the £90.00 mark, it's not finalised yet. That would be for 4 ECC83's / 12AU7's and 4 EL34's. New old stock Mullards can cost an arm and a leg, the difference in performance between them and a decent new valve is marginal in my experience.
If you do a web search on any popular valve model (ecc83, el34, kt88, kt66 etc) you will find lots of info and prices.
Dave.
Yep, the standard valves you will find in instrument amps (ECC83/82/81, ECC88, 6SN7, 6SL7, EL84, EL34, KT88, GZ34) are in full scale production in old TV tube plants. Once you stray away from those it starts getting harder to find and more expensive.
As far as ECC83s go, the best sounding current production ones I've found by a country mile are the JJ ECC803 S, which Guy Sergeant sells:
http://www.puresound.info/catalog/i3.html
They're the only current production ECC83 types I could live with, as all others I've heard have that thin-toned, 'peaky', 'tinselly', signature I can't get on with at all.
Ignore the "rich & full sounding" description, as I feel that's somewhat misleading. They're only rich and full sounding in the sense that they're devoid of the thin, 'in yer face' presentation of other new production ECC83s.
To my ears, they simply sound very natural, 'unforced' and just, well, 'right' :)
Marco.
Border Riever
22-04-2011, 07:31
Indeed, Jerry, always the best way... If you fancy a trip down to North Wales sometime (it ain't that far away), you'd be very welcome, and I'll let you hear just what valves can do ;)
Marco.
Thats a very kind offer and may take you up on that Marco and will be travelling south August time.
I'm still in two minds which direction to go and wont really decide until iv'e heard a few rigs however it looks I'm in the right company for help and guidance.
Thanks Again Fellas
Jerry :cool:
No worries, Jerry. The offer is there, so if you find yourself coming down this way, pop me a PM, and we'll arrange a sesh :cool:
You're right. You need to hear a few valve-based systems, and get a handle on what they do, perhaps by also taking a 'benchmark' with you, in terms of a solid-state amp you know well, and use that in other people's systems to judge the results.
There will be all sorts of other variables, of course, but it would give you an idea in general of what glowing bottles bring to the party :)
Marco.
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but in defence of solid state in general, may I suggest that if anyone wants the Croft "air" but with a touch more control and bags more "grunt," despite the so-called power output not being much different, then save up for some of the Albarry Mono's. Absolutely lovely, with no temperament whatsoever and a credit to the designer (an electronics lecturer in his working hours I understand). They fit in beautifully between Glenn's masterpieces (they are) and the likes of Tube Distinctions, which are again bespoke items costing many thousands I understand.
Next visit to essex, I really must pay some attention to Puresound (apologies Guy, not at all personal), as they look superbly presented and well "sorted."
Yep, seconded on Guy's designs - TBH, they aren't recommended enough here. I'm sure that the new Albarrys are lovely. I've heard the old ones, and liked them, and I also imagine them working beautifully with Harbeth speakers.
and the likes of Tube Distinctions, which are again bespoke items costing many thousands I understand.
Anthony produces many valve amp designs, at different prices. However, if you commission him to build a Copper amp from scratch, budget for around £5k.
Expensive, yes, but then consider that when you own one, you will also own an entirely original and bespoke hand-built amplifier, point-to-point wired throughout (with no horrid, sonically degrading PCBs, in sight) which will compete with or outperform almost any commercially produced valve amplifier on the market - at ANY price!
Kondo, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, and other similar over-hyped and overpriced thermionic 'audiophile jewellery', need not apply ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
22-04-2011, 12:26
But don't forget with valve amp's , speaker matching can be critical ! A good example being my old Shell type JII , they work quite well with a decent solid state amp , in fact some use them with Naim 72/140 , Nait 3 etc ,etc.
But they only ever really sang with my 2nd audio's , but also many speaker's just simply don't work with valve's , so my advice when considering a big change like going from silicon to thermionic is to look at the whole playback loop including speaker cable ,as my 2nd audio/Snell's were fairly fussy about that too , Audioquest crystal :spew: or Linn cable :eyebrows: trust me not a good match , Hitachi 102ssx yes :) or of course Audionote.
If i were to get back into valves , the amp i fancy is Guy's 2A3 , and i suspect i would have to chuck out my AE's , but its a different ball game as what i have now is perfectly suited to the CA740A .
But don't forget with valve amp's , speaker matching can be critical !
Indeed, Chris, but not quite as critical with a valve amp that's been designed properly in the first place to cope with the demands of most speakers.
What you mention is an important consideration, but somewhat overplayed, I feel. Speakers would have to be a stupidly difficult load (with very complicated crossovers), and totally inefficient, before they would bother my Copper amp.
Therefore good valve amps (and here I'm talking about those with quality output transformers) work well with about 90% of speakers :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
22-04-2011, 13:01
Indeed, Chris, but not quite as critical with a valve amp that's been designed properly in the first place to cope with the demands of most speakers.
What you mention is an important consideration, but somewhat overplayed, I feel. Speakers would have to be a stupidly difficult load, and totally inefficient, before they would bother my Copper amp. Therefore good valve amps work well with about 90% of speakers :)
Marco.
Yes but Marco , your copper amp is around 5K ? and it uses KT88's , my favorite all time valve is still the 2A3 , and any amp using this valve is going to be low powered ,7 to 18 watt's at a guess ? so you are going to be limited in speaker choice , i don't think its overplayed at all , i know my AE's are not a happy match with the Puresound A30 for example .
Hi Chris,
Well yes, I agree, therefore it should be defined whether you're talking about push-pull or single-ended amps. You just said, I quote: "But don't forget with valve amp's , speaker matching can be critical!"
You made no distinction, mate, between P/P and SE......
As you'll appreciate, the last thing I'd want is a 'valve virgin', thinking about dipping his toes into thermionic water for the first time, to feel that it's a total nightmare trying to get the speaker matching right, or that it involves a big complication, when the truth is rather different ;)
Ya gets me? :)
Marco.
chris@panteg
22-04-2011, 17:35
Hi Chris,
Well yes, I agree, therefore then it should be defined whether you're talking about push-pull or single-ended amps. You just said, I quote: "But don't forget with valve amp's , speaker matching can be critical!"
You made no distinction, mate, between P/P and SE......
As you'll appreciate, the last thing I'd want is a 'valve virgin', thinking about dipping his toes into thermionic water for the first time, to feel that it's a total nightmare trying to get the speaker matching right, or that it involves a big complication, when the truth is rather different ;)
Ya gets me? :)
Marco.
The 2A3 2nd audio's i used to own were in fact P/P and the Puresound 2A3 is also P/P , Triode amps don't have to be single ended , in fact i much prefer P/P over single ended , and if i were to spend serious money on a valve amp again , its got to be Triode's for me baby ;)
Marco , have you tried a good triode amp with the lockwood's , i'll take a triode amp over any pentode or tetrode amp any day , 2A3 or 211/845 .
I heard Guy's 2A3 at one of the Whittlebury Hall shows, driving some lovely big horns (I forget their name now - it'll come back to me later!) and I was very impressed. I do rate his designs highly :)
With the Lockwoods, I've heard some quality SE amps with them, and they were ok, but most of my listening has of course been done with my own amp.
The reason I like good KT88 designs is because they have BALLS. With the levels I play music at sometimes, I need an amp that can kick ass and not fall apart when the going gets tough, which the Copper amp is certainly most capable of delivering! :eek:
But it also does sweetness and finesse with equal aplomb, depending on the demands of whatever music is being played.
Valve amps using smaller output tubes, like those you mention, sound sweet, musical and mellifluous, but lack real BALLS (and bass), compared to good KT88 designs, and that just doesn't suit me.
You have to remember that I'm not a traditional valve user. I came to valves from being a diehard 'Naimee', and so was used to amps having real grip and drive - traits I value highly in musical presentation, and indeed demand in the equipment I use.
So it's different strokes for different folks, mate. Your choices are equally as valid as mine :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-04-2011, 18:04
Just down to taste re the SE versus PP thing. I much prefer SE myself, though a good PP amp can sound very good, it can't match the air, space and 3d imaging you get from a good SE design IMHO. You do have to consider the speaker used more with SE, but that is more down to the limited power available. Yer average 300b SE amp will give you about 7 or 8 watts, plenty for an efficient speaker such as one using a full-range driver. You should try to hear some full-range designs if you've never heard any, and of course there are some very good designs on the net to diy which will give great performance for little money.
Hi Ali,
I much prefer SE myself, though a good PP amp can sound very good, it can't match the air, space and 3d imaging you get from a good SE design IMHO.
With some, perhaps not, but then neither in my experience can an SE design deliver the sheer balls, headroom, drive, grip, and dynamic attack of the best P/P amps.... It's all horses for courses, dude, as you know full well yourself :)
However, the last time I went to a gig, I can't remember saying to my mates: "Gosh, chaps, isn't the air, space and 3D imaging wonderful?" ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
22-04-2011, 18:25
The problem with any single ended amp, be it solid state or thermionic valve is that as soon as it hits peak power that's it. If you were going to compare a single ended valve amp to Marcos push pull copper amp you'd need to at least double the dissipation doing nothing which means a lot of valves & a truly huge output transformer to avoid core saturation from DC current.
Besides which Marcos amp may well produce even more power by going into class B at even higher drives & thus produce yet more power (but not quite as cleanly).
As has already been realised single ended means pure class A & generally this will be at a lower power as you need to dissipate at least twice as much power than a PP amp at quiescent for the same class A output power :rolleyes:
So not a lot of big SE valve amps out there :rolleyes:
chris@panteg
22-04-2011, 19:52
Hi Ali,
With some, perhaps not, but then neither in my experience can an SE design deliver the sheer balls, headroom, drive, grip, and dynamic attack of the best P/P amps.... It's all horses for courses, dude, as you know full well yourself :)
However, the last time I went to a gig, I can't remember saying to my mates: "Gosh, chaps, isn't the air, space and 3D imaging wonderful?" ;)
Marco.
I'm with you on that one Marco , SE amps sound sumptuous and spacious with loads of details floating around , doesn't sound much like the real thing does it ;)
The 2nd audio monos i had , had plenty of balls but had a tendency to fall apart when the going got tough :eyebrows: :eyebrows: , yes very true but with the BP psu's ,they had grunt and control with the Snell's , i still get the chance to hear these same amp's as my mate John has a set :)
It's just different flavours, dudes.
I know what lights my fire with valve amps (not literally, though :eyebrows:), and know how to get it. Others may have a different approach in order to reach their 'audio nirvana' - it's all good! :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-04-2011, 20:21
Hi Ali,
With some, perhaps not, but then neither in my experience can an SE design deliver the sheer balls, headroom, drive, grip, and dynamic attack of the best P/P amps.... It's all horses for courses, dude, as you know full well yourself :)
However, the last time I went to a gig, I can't remember saying to my mates: "Gosh, chaps, isn't the air, space and 3D imaging wonderful?" ;)
Marco.
Depends on the gig!
Aye, it might be different at the kind of shirt-lifter's 'gigs' you go to! :lol: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-04-2011, 20:47
As opposed to those S&M ones you go to! :lol:
You're just jealous you haven't had an invite! :lolsign:
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-04-2011, 20:56
It's all that sweaty leather..
Are we on thread drift mode again? Just so I know whether to unleash the 'special' smilies! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ali Tait
22-04-2011, 21:01
As per usual then!
The 2A3 2nd audio's i used to own were in fact P/P and the Puresound 2A3 is also P/P
i've had both here and can recommend either, 2A3's i find more musical than 300b's, going onto SE amps i have still got my 845's, i love what they do but still prefer push pull being a bit of a bass head
:fingers: :fingers: :hairmetal: :hairmetal:
Ya gots da idea, Johnny boy!
Marco.
Ali Tait
23-04-2011, 11:12
SE can do bass too, you just need the right amp and speakers. Marco, remember my 813 on Steve's OB's?
Oh I know, dude... I remember it well! ;)
It's just I feel that the best KT88 amps (note I'm not saying just any P/P designs) have more balls, headroom and grip than ANY single-ended amps I've heard - and that sort of stuff is CRUCIALLY important to me! :gig:
Marco.
Ali Tait
23-04-2011, 12:13
Aye, if they float your boat mate that's all that matters.
Yep, strictly speaking its the addition of feedback to lower the output impedance thats giving the bass response that Marco likes, not so much a SE/PP thing. Due to the additional restrictions that SE place on output transformers, its normally not practical to use that level of global feedback with single ended designs.
There's no doubt in my mind that extremely well designed valve amps and extremely well designed tranny amps start to converge in terms of sound, as they inevitably must if both technologies are trying to achieve total fidelity to the signal.
I could easily live with valves or transistors (in my case MOSFETs) and have owned both technologies in the past. I choose solid state now mostly for the long term reliability, higher power output and lower power consumption.
Yep, strictly speaking its the addition of feedback to lower the output impedance thats giving the bass response that Marco likes, not so much a SE/PP thing. Due to the additional restrictions that SE place on output transformers, its normally not practical to use that level of global feedback with single ended designs.
Sounds like a feasible explanation, Nick :)
Don't get me wrong, I don't listen to music played at head-banging levels all the time, but it's rather like driving a car with a big engine, it's nice to have the power and 'acceleration' there when you need it, or fancy a bit of a buzz!
I'll be trying a matched (and cryo'd) quad of the new Tung Sol KT120s soon. Anthony's going to use them to modify the copper amp to deliver 60W of PURE CLASS A (well, you know what I mean!), so that should be fun.... :eek: :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco, you're sounding more like our friend Ash with every sentence above :) The difference is that you're using highly efficient LARGE speakers as a starting point and he's using very, very much smaller ones which really do need that KW of power on peaks.
Tradidional valve amp circuits do seem to place HUGE emphasis on the quality of transformers they use, the better ones being huge and expensive I believe..
....which is of course exactly what the Copper amp uses, and the transformers are hand-wound by the designer, too - an ex-employee of GEC!
Interesting parallel you've drawn there between my approach and that of Mr James - I can see where you're coming from... The difference is though, my methodology results in achieving a huge realistic sound, with massive scale and slam, not a 'wimpy' noise from two tiny glorified computer speakers! ;)
60W of quality Class A valve power, through the 95db efficient Lockwoods, in my (small but beautifully formed) room, should be a f*cking riot, so I can't wait!! Anyone got an SPL meter I can borrow? :lol: :lol:
Marco.
Lodgesound
23-04-2011, 14:43
Only one type of speaker I can think of more efficient than that Marco.....BBC LS 5/8's at 115 dB.......
Wow, Stewart, that's scary! I think some of the bigger open-baffles, and some Klipsch designs, also reach 100db and above :)
It's all very well revelling in 'air and space' and 3D imaging (TBH, that's not really what I get off on), although there's no shortage of those traits in my system, but if you're going to create anything resembling the effect of live music, then you need plenty of CLEAN POWER and headroom to achieve the necessary dynamic impact.
Even when the Lockwoods are currently being driven by the Copper amp's current 'mere' 38W Class A, the effect with rock music, played at serious levels, is ribcage-threateningly frightening - never mind 60W.... I like to shift plenty of air, and do it cleanly, sho I need shome deshent wattage, baby!! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Ali Tait
23-04-2011, 15:09
Sounds interesting about trying the new valves Marco, let us know how it goes.
Will do, Ali - it's just an experiment, so we've no idea what will happen, sonically... I'm just hoping that I can live without the 'vintage valve' sound of the GEC KT88s! :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
23-04-2011, 15:20
Aye, won't sound the same, apart from the extra power. Should give you even more balls to the wall sound though!
Only one type of speaker I can think of more efficient than that Marco.....BBC LS 5/8's at 115 dB.......
go on.... thats flat out with the active amp..
if i could find 12" cone speakers that did that at 1 watt i'd be using them.. if they where any good of course...
the very best amps are of course.... the best of the single ended triode amps, they can do it all..... although not many will believe that statement
.. getting speaker to 'do it all' on just a few watts is another thing...
thats very hard work... but possible/ expensive/ and almost always diy..
The Black Adder
26-04-2011, 08:18
I once had a musical fidelity set-up and I placed the MF X-10D valve buffer in to the tape loop. By switching it back and forth as music was playing the differences were very apparent. Much wider sound, slightly softer, much improved bass too.
I then upgraded the X-10D with the Rock Grotto mods and it was better again.
anthonyTD
26-04-2011, 09:02
You can get single ended to do decent bass [as marco is fully aware from listening to my system] however, not' i fear in the conventional methods usualy used.
single ended is much simpler in signal path design, but all the more difficult to get to work properly so that it will play all types of music without falling apart.
Anthony,TD...
Ali Tait
26-04-2011, 12:58
Yes, speaker matching is the key IMHO, get it right and SE will do all that PP can do.
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