View Full Version : Upstream of the Caiman (Beresford)
Jilles69
10-04-2011, 08:52
Hi all,
I would like to set up a nice cost-effective way of using my headphones to listen to the FLAC files on my PC. After reading a lot of reviews I have decided I will go for the Beresford Caiman with Gator board. (still have to order it)
As I'll be using the Caiman as a headphone amp for my Grados I don't need to worry about any other components down the line. I do have to make sure that I get my flacs to the Caiman in the most effective way and I'm hoping that someone can give me some advice on that.
If I understand it correctly the USB in of the DAC is limited in frequency so I would never be able to get the full potential out of the Caiman using USB. Is that correct?
This leaves Optical and SPDIF. From what I have read they are very similar in quality as long as you use decent cables.
I also have an Apple Airport Express that I could hook up but I think that using that with I-tunes through a PC (not Mac) limits the bitstream even going to the Airport Express. Aam I right in thinking I would be better off not using an Airport Express in this set up?
I can't imagine that the pc itself would make much of a difference but somehow I doubt that the standard on-board sound card will be the best thing to use. Will this be the limiting factor in my system? If so, What card should I get?:scratch:
I was hoping to get everything (DAC, cable and whatever else I need) for around £300. Would I get set up for this kind of money?
Lots of questions I know but I’m sure there are people out there with the answers!
Thanks,
Joris
Stratmangler
10-04-2011, 09:46
I feed my Caiman with the output from a Squeezebox Touch.
Squeezebox Touch can be used as stand alone (it can run it's own Linux OS) running off USB devices (HDD or memory stick), and it will also take SD cards.
It's also possible to control the Touch from a remote machine running a Open Source Server Client built for a number of different operating systems.
I run mine on a Windows XP running machine.
The remote machine setup is more capable in the processing stakes.
Cheapest Touch I can find at the moment is at Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-930-000089-Squeezebox-Touch/dp/B002N203SW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302428754&sr=8-1
I can't imagine that the pc itself would make much of a difference but somehow I doubt that the standard on-board sound card will be the best thing to use.
Joris, the PC, it's software and how you configure it, can make a significant difference to the sound you get out the other end. Take a look at the below thread for some pointers;
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10018
And someone may correct me it I am wrong, but I believe Stan Beresford recommends using USB from a PC to his DAC if you are streaming file based audio. You don't need a fancy sound card at all and IMO it would be wasted money for what you want to do, just get a good quality USB cable (Belkin Gold series) and plug it straight into the Caiman.
If you do go down the Caiman route, prepare to be very pleased with the results :)
(there is a website I am trying to find for you from another AoS member, which details just about everything a newcomer to this method a playback should need. I can't find it right now, but will post again when I do find it ;))
Werner Berghofer
10-04-2011, 10:53
Joris,
I think that using that with I-tunes through a PC (not Mac) limits the bitstream even going to the Airport Express.
the Airport Express is limited to a sampling rate of 44.100 kHz and a resolution of 16 bit, which matches exactly the standard CD audio specifications (“red book”). If required, the wireless stream will be converted by iTunes on the fly to Apple Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC in short) 44.100 kHz/16 bit. This is also the standard file format which I use for my audio library, so in my case no conversion/downsampling is involved.
In my home I use three Airport Express, two Beresford Caiman and one Beresford TC-7520 (all DACs include the highly recommended Gator PCB upgrade) to wirelessly stream to differenct listening locations. There is no quality reduction caused by this process; the audio sounds exactly the same if compared to a DAC plugged-in directly to one of my Macs, regardless if via USB or Toslink (personally I consider a Toslink connection a little bit more comfortable, since no USB port is “wasted”).
Only if you use audio files with a higher sampling rate and/or a higher resolution automatic downsampling will be performed by iTunes before streaming to an Airport Express.
Here you go Joris, this is very good indeed - there's a wealth of information here, but it's worth spending some time reading through before making any further purchases or decisions :)
The Well tempered Computer (http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/index.html)
I would say buy the caiman and gator and use a USB lead to your pc to start off with.
I think you will be very pleased with the USB input - I use USB from my macbook pro into my 7520 and it sounds great, no different to my cd player via to coaxial or optical.
You'll get a bigger improvement in sound quality by upgrading your power supply to the caiman than you ever will by endlessly fiddling with the difference between USB / optical / coaxial in my humble opinion.
If you then want to fiddle around with upgraded sound cards or squeezeboxes you can to your hearts content as you always have the USB input to your caiman as a benchmark to use for further testing/fiddling.
Butuz
I would say buy the caiman and gator and use a USB lead to your pc to start off with.
I think you will be very pleased with the USB input - I use USB from my macbook pro into my 7520 and it sounds great, no different to my cd player via to coaxial or optical.
You'll get a bigger improvement in sound quality by upgrading your power supply to the caiman than you ever will by endlessly fiddling with the difference between USB / optical / coaxial in my humble opinion.
If you then want to fiddle around with upgraded sound cards or squeezeboxes you can to your hearts content as you always have the USB input to your caiman as a benchmark to use for further testing/fiddling.
Butuz
.... what he said ;)
Jilles69
10-04-2011, 17:07
Thanks for all that info Chris, Tim, Werner and Butuz!
I'll start reading up on the links you sent!
I'm using a Windows XP PC and saw something about making sure it outputs a bit-perfect bit stream.
Does anyone know how to do that? Is it a matter of choosing the right software or setting it up in a certain way? Until now I've used ALAC files on Itunes but if it is better to use a different software that uses FLAC then i would just re-rip my cds. Any thoughts on what software to use?
Thanks!
Joris
For Windows XP the cheapest and easiest option you have for the best sound quality is to use Foobar2000 to play FLAC, but it will also play ALAC (but try them both out and make your own mind up, I'm just an Apple hater!) The most important thing is to use ASIO4ALL to achieve the best bit-stream of data to your DAC. You need a Foobar plugin for this, which can be downloaded from their website.
Pretty much all you need to know is on that website I sent you earlier, but here's some extra quick links;
http://www.asio4all.com/
http://www.ayre.com/usb-asio4all_setup.htm (this is a step by step walk through for ASIO and Foobar)
http://www.foobar2000.org/
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/221237/asio4all-explanation
That lot will get you set-up with everything you need for XP and it's all open source software, i.e., free!
That should keep you busy for awhile! It takes time the first time, but it's well worth the effort to learn about it and understand what's happening. If you do it right and feed the Caiman with the best bitstream you can via USB and have accurate FLAC rips, then you will be able to outperform CDP's in excess of £1,000. So that's your incentive ;)
Jilles69
10-04-2011, 19:13
Great stuff Tim!
I'll get stuck in then....
Joris
Great stuff Tim!
I'll get stuck in then....
Joris
Asio4all can be tricky, but those guides walk you through pretty well and it's what I used first time. The results can be startling..... see this thread;
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10113
Like everyone else before they got into file based audio, I was sceptical..... but let your ears decide, as no amount of what people say can be a substitute for what works for you.
Have fun ;)
Werner Berghofer
10-04-2011, 19:59
Tim,
I'm just an Apple hater!
care to elaborate a little bit on this? What makes you hate products of this brand?
Why do I dislike Apple?
Gosh Werner, we could be a long time - I just don't like the company, it's ethos and I personally really dislike iPhones, because of what it seems to do to their owners, it's like crack cocaine. I was on the subway a few nights ago and a young couple were sat opposite me from Sloane Square to Kew Gardens (that's 12 stops) and they said about a dozen words to each other, totally addicted to whatever they were doing on their iPhones. It's drained peoples ability to think for themselves and communicate. And why can't folk put them in their damn pockets at concerts? Is there really a need to constantly Twitter or update Facebook during a gig, WTF - and those damn screens, they can be dimmed, but do they do it!!!!!!
As a PC user I really dislike what iTunes does to a PC too. But I cannot deny they make very well engineered products (for a price), but at the end of the day my view is they are supposed to be a gadget company, not a private members club.
But hey, each to their own, I don't like the company and don't get me started on DRM and iTunes either. :steam:
This article quote pretty much sums it up;
I'm offended by the self-important manner in which Apple has created a technological apartheid, mainly just by charging a lot more, but also by distancing itself from ordinary PCs - that's personal computers to the uninitiated.
PCs, Apple wants you to know, are for lowly, poor and unimaginative people with boring jobs. Apples, on the other hand, are for clever, freewheeling, creative types who like modern music and wear cargo shorts to work. The whole thing makes me feel rather sick.
I don't want any part of a company that encourages the fetishising of its products and makes my kids feel inadequate because they don't own them.
I don't like the way that Apple appears to have a creepy, quasi-religious hold on its consumers - one which fills them with a nagging sense of dissatisfaction if they don't have the very latest, upgraded version of the must-have gadget.
Source (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1282082/Why-I-hate-Apple-infuriating-cult-making-people-smug-bores.html)
It doesn't make me a bad person though, I just don't like Apple ;)
(and this will be my one and only comment on the matter.......)
Werner Berghofer
10-04-2011, 22:02
Tim,
a young couple were sat opposite me from Sloane Square to Kew Gardens (that's 12 stops) and they said about a dozen words to each other, totally addicted to whatever they were doing on their iPhones. It's drained peoples ability to think for themselves and communicate.
believe me, I can fully relate to your observation. Everytime I watch a similar scene in the subway or on a train I think about a certain moment in François Truffaut’s movie “Fahrenheit 451” (starring Oskar Werner and Julie Christie). Like you I don’t appreciate the social changes in our society, caused by being “plugged-in” all the time – remember William Gibson’s “Neuromancer”?
But I doubt that Apple is the company to blame for this. Is it really Apple’s fault that most young people in urban areas nowadays seem to favour their Facebook “friends” instead of watching the real faces of people surrounding them? Back in the early 1980’s, when Sony introduced the Walkman, there was not much verbal communication on subways going on. The world is still turning, people still exist ;-)
At any time in man’s history we had to learn the proper way to use our tools and our opportunities. In the personal history of each human being comes a time when one has to seriously think about self-determination and how to achieve it.
My business background is typesetting, graphic design, photography, publishing, software development and education. In my business, since the late 1980’s “Apple” has been a synonym for “computer”. Of course the price we had to pay for “our” equipment always was higher than the price for standard MS-DOS and later Windows PCs, but our equipment looked better, was built much more rugged and always used advanced software and hardware: A combination which made it possible to reliably produce our publications, no matter if our product was newspapers, magazines, books, movies or music. Using a Mac, one could accomplish complex tasks with ease, efficiency and elegance which were not possible on any other platform.
Macs just work, they don’t crash. The different acquisition costs – if any – when compared to hardware operating under Microsoft Windows don’t matter in such a scenario. In my opinion many “Mac haters” don’t have personal experience in operating and using Apple equipment.
If you’re working under tough schedule pressure, you simply have no time for hardware and driver experiments and you are not interested in constantly crashing operating systems or annoying software errors. If you spend many hours per day working with a computer to earn your money, the experience is quite different if the haptic touch and the visual apperance of the tools you use are aesthetically pleasing or not.
To get bit-perfect output from a Mac, just plug-in a digital cable and send the output to an Airport Express or a DAC. There’s no need for hacking around with Asio4all, kernel system audio output drivers or similar hassle ;-)
Personally I compare the iSheeps to the members of a new religion.
My dislike have been building up over the years. Back in 1990 Apple's advertisement stated how much faster their PCs were. However since they were using a non x86 based platform then it was hard to compare.
Any way I think this also annoyed a danish PC mag which did a comparing article. They compared the Mac to a PC costing the same price, which meant that the PC had pumped (RAID, etc...) running cirles around the MAC.
Apple DK was not pleased:eyebrows: well that was fun and games
FYI some years later Jobs had left them and they were close to go out of business. Microsoft supported them getting a pile of shares in return; this was seen as a counter to a possible antitrust case.
Later Jobs came back and the products became "magical"
6 years ago I was looking for a portable player but Ipods wasn't an option: no radio, iTunes and lack of supported formats.
I have since learned that there are alternatives to iTunes when it comes to moving tracks to iSomething. Isn't iTunes still needed for activation of their gadgets?
Supported formats are still an issue for both audio and video; people were happy when VLC came iPad and cried when it was pulled days later.
Actually back then Sony was just as bad; besides their Memory Stick they had their iTunes equivalent that you had to use... and I think that they had some compressed format of thier own.
Back when the iPhone was presented I looked at the specs and it looked like it was a year late for the party. Still it was selling like hotcakes. Granted the software gave a better user experience and people liked it. Since then they present a new model every year adding some of the features that where missing
And now they do the same with iPad; hardware wise it is lacking. Not that i can see why should buy a tablet for anyway; but where is my USB port?!
The rule must be never buy their first generation.
A colleague of mine is under the spell; some years ago he had 7 iPods and since then Mac Mini, iPhone, MacBooks, iMac, Apple TV, and an IPad have been added... and I guess more iPods...
The only thing that I find "magical" is how much free advertisment Apple gets everywhere.
wee tee cee
11-04-2011, 00:40
I recently switched over to a computer based hifi having ditched my cd player when the the computer/dac combo surpassed it.I bought a dell lap top and burnt my cd collection onto it with itunes.No sleeve notes or anything fancy,just the music at lossless.It sounds terrific using a usb lead to my listening position.I dont own an i pod, my wife and son do.I dont have high bit rate files.I dare say people with computer knowledge could improve on things but from my perspective,having your music library at your finger tips that sounds excellent....well.If you just want to enjoy your music,its a great introduction.
Cheapest Touch I can find at the moment is at Amazon
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-930-000089-Squeezebox-Touch/dp/B002N203SW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302428754&sr=8-1
Better price has been here for some weeks now;
http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=457344
This thread was my question also, the difference between the Caiman outputs, and what source would beat my CD player for audio quality, the QLS SD card player, the Touch, or a laptop set-up. I remember Stan saying the SPDIFs were superior in sound to the USB but who knows? One answer I got was the laptop may be the better of my three options which seems to be reflected in this thread.
So, for £300 what are the not-to-do's when you purchase a netbook/laptop for this purpose? I cannot find a single specific recommendation on notebooks/laptops as music servers, except an EEEPC with SSD from a Hong Kong audio company. The Macmini can work well but that is not a notebook. The posted thread is typically vague on the hardware side.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/Choosing.htm
StanleyB
11-04-2011, 08:43
So, for £300 what are the not-to-do's when you purchase a netbook/laptop for this purpose? I cannot find a single specific recommendation on notebooks/laptops as music servers, except an EEEPC with SSD from a Hong Kong audio company.
If your laptop has an Express card slot (NOt PCMCIA!!!), get one of THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Creative-X-Fi-Xtreme-Audio-Notebook-Laptop-Sound-Card-/310222798807?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_So undCards&hash=item483ab83fd7). It has an optical output that goes up to 24/96. I now use a Sony laptop with one of those cards as my music server going into a DAC. I have tried all sorts of media players, but none of them come close to screen size, CODEC upgrades, ease of use, etc. I upgraded the laptop hard disk to a 500GB one, but have the option to connect to external drives as well. Until something better comes along, I shall stick to this setup.
So, for £300 what are the not-to-do's when you purchase a netbook/laptop for this purpose? I cannot find a single specific recommendation on notebooks/laptops as music servers, except an EEEPC with SSD from a Hong Kong audio company.
Well in my limited experience everything I have tried works well, as long as you get the software right, be it XP or Vista/Win7. I have run dedicated music servers from a small Samsung N210 Netbook, a Dell D600 Laptop (very old) a very powerful desktop machine and now I have a dedicated purpose built Win7 music server. They all worked well, but some had limitations, most notably peripheral devices that were noisy, i.e. the screens on laptops had an influence when on and the Dell made a static crackle when the screensaver kicked in. It all depends on how serious you are, John (Welder) is building a dedicated system with the aim of getting the very best possible from a PC. So it may well be worth checking out his posts?
As to your original question, well a Netbook and a 1TB USB drive would be achievable for around £300 and any Netbook would suffice as the specs are almost identical at that price point.
Stratmangler
11-04-2011, 09:04
Better price has been here for some weeks now;
http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=457344
They look to be unable to deliver at the moment.;)
They look to be unable to deliver at the moment.;)
Looks like that Misco deal is over £299 :eek:
Misco nearly doubled the price. Went from the cheapest to the most expensive in one morning!
Sounds like another vote for PC audio Stan, and you are recommending the SPDIF over the USB on the Caiman? I do not have a laptop yet, just a desktop, so if optical is clearly better I should try to find one with that option? Mind you I have used my only optical input with my CATV box (next Caiman should have two coaxials, two opticals, and a USB).
Most attractive is I could use the notebook to EQ my speakers and room with ARTA or REQ Wizard or whatever. I DIY built my four way active open baffles so the measuring ability is even more attractive for fine tuning. Any of you guys doing that?
If your laptop has an Express card slot (NOt PCMCIA!!!)
Stan, PCMCIA is inferior to Express card slot in some way? I noticed a 24/192 PCMCIA card and recalled you were looking to compare the higher resolution to 24/96 for experimentation.
I have a mixture of SqueezeBox and PC based playback, all using the same FLAC library, there's plenty already been stated about SBs, so I'll stick to computer playback...:)
For me there are 3 main parts to computer audio playback (I'm not in a position to comment about apple, well not in a positive way anyway ;));
1. The file server; serving up FLAC files from an HD or NAS, all computers built this century (and some before) should be able to do this quite happily.
2. The player; I use winamp (foobar or mediamonkey are other options) on XP, the most important part of this is configuring the settings. Priority, buffer size, input plugins (eg FFSoX), output plugins (directsound or ASIO), turning off windows sound schemes etc. I.E. Making sure you're not compromising performance, and are outputting directly to the soundcard and avoiding the Kmixer. If you don't get the buffer sizes correct you'll get drop outs, if you don't set the priority high enough you'll get drop out etc, duo-core is desirable but not essential...it all depends what else you want to use the computer for.
3. The soundcard; If you're using a tower, as I am, this is a doddle, I've got an M-Audio 2496 PCI, and everything goes directly to the SPDIF out at 24/96, and straight into the Beresford, and very nice it is too :). With a laptop you're limited to options such as the X-Fi Stan mentioned. There are also other USB external soundcards, M-Audio make quite a few and they will have proper asynchronous driver support. Finally you can use the DAC as an external souncard too if it has USB support, but as with most DACs the bulk of the development costs are for the DAC itself, not the 'soundcard' portion, which is usually a bit of an afterthought/bolt on.
So most PC's/Laptops over 1.5 Ghz can be perfectly capable music players, given the right configuration, software, and periferals...;)
Stan, PCMCIA is inferior to Express card slot in some way? I noticed a 24/192 PCMCIA card and recalled you were looking to compare the higher resolution to 24/96 for experimentation.
No it's that PCI is for towers not laptops and stan uses a laptop...
You've got a desktop so I'd thoroughly recommend the M-Audio 2496, I picked up one for £35 on ebay, as it's been superseded by the 192, and as the beresford only goes to 96, it's perfect :)
Oh and it's a doddle to install :cool:
Wad62
Thanks for the summary, very useful. I can make some informed choices if I purchase a notebook now.
My desktop is the first imac G5, which I will not be using as the server. A new laptop will be a standalone server, hardwired to the Caiman. I actually sit next to my source and preamp, speakers and amps at the other end of the room, no remote controls necessary:)
So is the carefully configured PC server obviously superior in audio quality to your nice CD players, or is it just the equal and chosen for its convenience. I am amazed, since I plugged it in the other day after years in storage, that my old Pioneer DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player has a completely silent CD mechanism. I wonder if the laptop will beat it on audio quality?
Wad62
Thanks for the summary, very useful. I can make some informed choices if I purchase a notebook now.
My desktop is the first imac G5, which I will not be using as the server. A new laptop will be a standalone server, hardwired to the Caiman. I actually sit next to my source and preamp, speakers and amps at the other end of the room, no remote controls necessary:)
So is the carefully configured PC server obviously superior in audio quality to your nice CD players, or is it just the equal and chosen for its convenience. I am amazed, since I plugged it in the other day after years in storage, that my old Pioneer DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio player has a completely silent CD mechanism. I wonder if the laptop will beat it on audio quality?
Hi Sean...I didn't realise that your desktop was an apple...non intended, as they say ;) A lot of my suggestions are therefore of no use...Oh well perhaps some more experienced apple boys can help. :)
R.E. Computer V CD player, if we leave the DAC out of the equation, it all depends on your configuration, and the quality of the soundcard.
But things like the SoX resampler can also give a well configured computer an edge. :)
There are other coniderations, like 'Galvanic Isolation', i.e. the 'electrical noise' produced by a computer...but I'm way out of my depth at this point ;)
I have not even tried connecting my imac to my Caiman yet. I'll try that tonight and try to ignore the fan noise while testing. It has optical out so I could compare the optical and USB outputs for what its worth. I have some high resolution downloads actually, which should make good sources. I'll bet iplayer will not play them so maybe I'll download Foobar.
I hear the Apple range requires less fiddling to get decent audio output.
As for resampling (SoX) as a Caiman user, I think the Caiman does that already with its "64x oversampling technology", where it is most likely done well already.
Foobar is for Windows only.
Try Songbird for OSX.
or this http://code.google.com/p/audirvana/
They are both free and sound very good.
Songbird
http://www.getsongbird.com/
Will play the vast majority of file types including hires flac
Audirvana has some very nice features such as memory play and hog mode, automatic sample rate detection, its a bit buggy but there are regular updates
electric beach
11-04-2011, 11:00
They look to be unable to deliver at the moment.;)
:ner: For once I'm actually up and ahead of the game (he says, jumping around in an amazed John Cleese style). Ordered mine Friday at £166 including postage, been delivered this morning! :smoking:
Now showing discounted from £299.99 to £249.99. I guess it has to be available for a day at the higher price in order to claim the reduction.
Stratmangler
11-04-2011, 11:06
:ner: For once I'm actually up and ahead of the game (he says, jumping around in an amazed John Cleese style). Ordered mine Friday at £166 including postage, been delivered this morning! :smoking:
Now showing discounted from £299.99 to £249.99. I guess it has to be available for a day at the higher price in order to claim the reduction.
Nice one :)
As for resampling (SoX) as a Caiman user, I think the Caiman does that already with its "64x oversampling technology", where it is most likely done well already.
Resampling is not the same as oversampling...Simplistically put oversampling is to do with re-reading of data.
The SoX resampling algorithm is a method of converting one sample depth/frequency to another, FFSoX is the input plugin for winamp, so no good to you apple chaps...
http://in-ffsox.sourceforge.net/
so I take my 16/44.1 red book FLAC files and upsample them to 24/96 prior to them hitting winamp (then on to the SPDIF on my soundcard and into the beresford), is it as good as listening to native 24/96? No...but it does sound nicer than the native 16/44.1, well to my ears anyway. :)
Still as you're going the apple path this is all immaterial :eyebrows:
I did not know what the oversampling was. So the Caiman does not touch the bit depth or frequency. I remember some people prefer DACs that do not mess with those rates.
I just happened to have changed the resampling settings on my imac last week, in the audio midi box. I saw comments that upping to 24/96 improved the sound. I believe that effects recordings made on the imac, but does it do on-the-fly changes to the audio played over the optical output?
I found this to be an interesting argument regarding off-time and real-time resampling;
"I can think of only one reason to change the sampling rate of finished (i.e. ready to listen to) files to a higher one. That is, a good DAC is going to use gentler filtering at the higher rates and this may offer sonic benefits.
That said, depending on the DAC, there may also be a sonic price to pay in the form of less stable clocking at the higher rates. Some DACs in my experience, perform better at lower rates than they do at the highest rates. (This includes some "pro" converters.)
Also, when I speak of converting the sample rate, I'm referring to using an off-line (i.e. NOT real-time, while the music plays) algorithm of high quality, like iZotope's "64-bit SRC". With many other algorithms I've heard, even at integer rates, the brightening and hardening engendered by the lesser algorithms can easily offset any benefits of gentler filtering, regardless of the DAC.
So, for a few specific combinations of SRC algorithm and DAC, I think there may be sonic benefits. For most others, my view is the net result will be a sonic loss."
I would keep the settings at 16/44.1 in audio-midi if you are playing back ripped cds.
There was a practice of using 24/44.1 in order to get bit perfect output with iTunes but this no longer applies with the latest versions.
I found this to be an interesting argument regarding off-time and real-time resampling;
"I can think of only one reason to change the sampling rate of finished (i.e. ready to listen to) files to a higher one. That is, a good DAC is going to use gentler filtering at the higher rates and this may offer sonic benefits.
That said, depending on the DAC, there may also be a sonic price to pay in the form of less stable clocking at the higher rates. Some DACs in my experience, perform better at lower rates than they do at the highest rates. (This includes some "pro" converters.)
Also, when I speak of converting the sample rate, I'm referring to using an off-line (i.e. NOT real-time, while the music plays) algorithm of high quality, like iZotope's "64-bit SRC". With many other algorithms I've heard, even at integer rates, the brightening and hardening engendered by the lesser algorithms can easily offset any benefits of gentler filtering, regardless of the DAC.
So, for a few specific combinations of SRC algorithm and DAC, I think there may be sonic benefits. For most others, my view is the net result will be a sonic loss."
This all depends upon the capabilities of the resampler itself, I certainly wouldn't advocate changing the source file itself, you'd need a server farm to store the data, and you'd end up clogging up your home network.
Add to that you'd be stuck with the quality of the resampler you used at the time, and they will only get better.
My main SB network is only playing standard 16/44.1 (SoX is available for it too but only at the server end, not the player, and that's not the right place IMHO), but I have been messing around with it an my PC in the form of FFSoX.
There's an interesting thread on the subject of resampling and SoX in particular on the SB forum...
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462
...whether it makes things easier for the DAC, or the soundcard I don't know, but there is an audible improvement in sound quality, enough for me to keep it switched on anyway ;)
I most certainly would not let Itunes do any form of resampling, it would probably trash the file, it can't even handle ReplayGain properly, if at all :eek:
Werner Berghofer
11-04-2011, 12:39
Sean,
does it do on-the-fly changes to the audio played over the optical output?
yes, it does. Any audio signal through the selected output in Audio MIDI Setup will use the data format which has been specified there. The moment iTunes is being launched, the data format from Audio MIDI Setup is read and – if necessary – iTunes output is changed accordingly, no matter what data format has been used in the audio file which currently is played through iTunes.
If Audio MIDI Setup is changed while iTunes is running, the new values will be used the next time iTunes is started, but not on the fly.
StanleyB
11-04-2011, 13:09
Stan, PCMCIA is inferior to Express card slot in some way? I noticed a 24/192 PCMCIA card and recalled you were looking to compare the higher resolution to 24/96 for experimentation.
That particular card I mentioned will not fit in a PCMCIA slot. Which PCMCIA card did you see? Can you post a link?
Twas this one Stan.
http://www.kikatek.com/product_info.php?products_id=1261&source=froogle
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,1746178,00.asp
StanleyB
11-04-2011, 13:32
Thanks for the link. I might test drive one if nobody posts a review before then. The price seems acceptable.
Cheap express card
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Creative-X-Fi-Xtreme-Audio-Notebook-Laptop-Sound-Card_W0QQitemZ310222798807QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=22 4248193348&rvr_id=224248193348&cguid=04363fad1280a0e204d5ab65ffcd6e28#ht_1579wt_9 07
Cheap express card
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Creative-X-Fi-Xtreme-Audio-Notebook-Laptop-Sound-Card_W0QQitemZ310222798807QQcmdZViewItem?rvr_id=22 4248193348&rvr_id=224248193348&cguid=04363fad1280a0e204d5ab65ffcd6e28#ht_1579wt_9 07
Stan already linked to that one back in post#18. It is 24/96, not the 24/192 he is interested in.
Thanks for the link. I might test drive one if nobody posts a review before then. The price seems acceptable.
Hi Stan, I noticed on your earlier post that you're using an optical connection from your soundcard, is this in preference to the coax?
Or does it only have an optical output? :)
Coaxial from a laptop soundcard? Rare to non-existent isn't it? The linked soundcard Stan uses has no coaxial.
Coaxial from a laptop soundcard? Rare to non-existent isn't it? The linked soundcard Stan uses has no coaxial.
Cheers Sean, I've seen a few posts on other forums about optical providing better electronic isolation from a computer...I think your explanation makes much more sense :)
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 10:27
Record with: dBpoweramp
Playback with: Winamp
Transfer: via USB from my Lenovo Docking Station.
DAC and Headphone Amp: Caiman + Gator
I am sitting in my office hooked up as we speak.
Very simple to set up. I expected to be fiddling with all sorts of control panel watsits, but I just pluged in the USB cable and everything was routed perfectly. Thoroughly recommend it.
Simples
Nathan
Record with: dBpoweramp
Playback with: Winamp
Transfer: via USB from my Lenovo Docking Station.
DAC and Headphone Amp: Caiman + Gator
I am sitting in my office hooked up as we speak.
Very simple to set up. I expected to be fiddling with all sorts of control panel watsits, but I just pluged in the USB cable and everything was routed perfectly. Thoroughly recommend it.
Simples
Nathan
Glad you're enjoying it Nathan, you might be able to improve things even more
What OS are you you using? XP or Win 7
You might find that the default settings are taking you via the windows Kmixer which resamples everything to 48K, as you'll be using the windows default composite USB driver...
There's some useful info about using ASIO for winamp and USB DACs here, and also a working ASIO plugin for winamp, there is no official ASIO support from winamp themselves...
http://www.aqvox.de/Asio-USB-Audio-installation-e.htm
:cool:
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 10:49
Glad you're enjoying it Nathan, you might be able to improve things even more
What OS are you you using? XP or Win 7
You might find that the default settings are taking you via the windows Kmixer which resamples everything to 48K, as you'll be using the windows default composite USB driver...
There's some useful info about using ASIO for winamp and USB DACs here, and also a working ASIO plugin for winamp, there is no official ASIO support from winamp themselves...
http://www.aqvox.de/Asio-USB-Audio-installation-e.htm
:cool:
Never even thought of looking into this given the current performance I am getting.
You're a star, Will.
Let me have a look at this link, and I will get back to you with results.
Oh yea, I am running XP.
I took a photo a moment ago, just for fun, but photobucket has bombed for the moment, so I will post that later.
Nathan
Never even thought of looking into this given the current performance I am getting.
You're a star, Will.
Let me have a look at this link, and I will get back to you with results.
Oh yea, I am running XP.
I took a photo a moment ago, just for fun, but photobucket has bombed for the moment, so I will post that later.
Nathan
I must admit that I haven't played around with ASIO4ALL myself as my SC is a PCI one and has it's own ASIO drivers, but the japanese ASIO plugin for winamp that is available on that page does work, unlike the official Winamp one which is no longer supported. :)
Oh and make sure you check the 'allow 24bit' in the winamp playback preferences...there's loads of configuration stuff in winamp, and the default settings aren't ideal ;)
Just want to make you aware that while asio4all is an excellent piece of software it isn’t a true driver and it has its limitations.
Asio4all will only cope with 24/48 max.
For any higher res music you want to play with XP you’ll either need to purchase a true driver such as the one Will linked to or use this http://reclock.free.fr/
and Media Player Classic.
Win7 on the other hand will play natively 24/96 max and bypass what substitutes for the XP kmixer without an asio driver or wrap but, Win7 requires a lot of “adjustment” to minimize the OS impact and improve latency.
Win7 on the other hand will play natively 24/96 max and bypass what substitutes for the XP kmixer without an asio driver or wrap but, Win7 requires a lot of “adjustment” to minimize the OS impact and improve latency.
Ah now I see why you need to be a bit more meticulous with your configuration settings John, particularly as you need to go via USB to your HRT. :doh:
With an on-board soundcard I can bypass everything and point Direct Sound output straight to the M-Audio 2496 SPDIF explicitly, which also isolates the signal path from other resource conflicts ;)
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 12:41
I must admit that I haven't played around with ASIO4ALL myself as my SC is a PCI one and has it's own ASIO drivers, but the japanese ASIO plugin for winamp that is available on that page does work, unlike the official Winamp one which is no longer supported. :)
Oh and make sure you check the 'allow 24bit' in the winamp playback preferences...there's loads of configuration stuff in winamp, and the default settings aren't ideal ;)
I've spent the last while trying to configure ASIO without much success. Winamp seems unable/unwilling to pick up the extra plugins you drop into its plugins directory.
I’ve deliberately tried to keep Dac and computer separate Will, finding that a separate Dac (no onboard sound card) sounds noticeably better to my ears. It also makes asynchronous transfer somewhat easier. I’ve never got on with SPDIF and I have tried :)
So yes, I’m data throughout the computer process with galvanic isolation right up to the Dac (HRT onboard isolator and the ADUM chip with its own power supply so no USB power problems)
It is quite complicated but the results are worth it ;)
This might help Nathan
http://www.ayre.com/usb-xp_setup.htm
and you need to get the correct asio as Will mentioned for Winamp and as he wrote, It’s the Japanese version; at least the site is in Japanese.
Better still, dump Winamp coz its rubbish and get foobar ;)
This might help Nathan
http://www.ayre.com/usb-xp_setup.htm
and you need to get the correct asio as Will mentioned for Winamp and as he wrote, It’s the Japanese version; at least the site is in Japanese.
Better still, dump Winamp coz its rubbish and get foobar ;)
Winamp's fine once you sort out the configuration settings, but that does take some time I'll admit ;)
The japanese ASIO plugin worked fine for me, you can download it from the first page I linked to;
"C:\Programme\winamp\plugins" Alternatively the file ASIO out DLL is here available.4. configure WINAMP for ASIO
...just drop the .dll into the plugin folder...and re-start winamp for it to pick it up, it will then appear as an output option ;)
Edit; I've just added a zip of it as an attachment, you should be able to download it :)
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 13:20
Winamp's fine once you sort out the configuration settings, but that does take some time I'll admit ;)
The japanese ASIO plugin worked fine for me, you can download it from the first page I linked to;
"C:\Programme\winamp\plugins" Alternatively the file ASIO out DLL is here available.4. configure WINAMP for ASIO
...just drop the .dll into the plugin folder...and re-start winamp for it to pick it up, it will then appear as an output option ;)
Hi Will,
I tried a number of times to do this, but to no effect. If it matters any, I am running the bog standard winamp.
Welder, I've installed foobar and I have followed the XP settings as listed in the link you posted, and I've also implemented the following:
http://extra.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Foobar2000_for_Windows_-_Setup_Guide
Do I need to do any more than this to make sure my caiman is receiving the bitstream it should be?
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 13:27
I notice Welder that you are using ASIO4all with foobar.
To do this did you have to drop it into the components directory with a name augmentation (add foo_ to the start of the file name)?
Nathan
You should be good to go on the audio front Nathan.
Foobar like Winamp takes a bit of messing around with if you want album art etc.
There are lots of threads on the net about how to get the best from foobar and lots of plugins to support various codecs.
(so much for computer audio being simple :doh:)
I don’t know what kit you’re using (USB/SPDIF etc) but if you run into a specific problem drop me a pm or something.
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 13:36
You should be good to go on the audio front Nathan.
Foobar like Winamp takes a bit of messing around with if you want album art etc.
There are lots of threads on the net about how to get the best from foobar and lots of plugins to support various codecs.
(so much for computer audio being simple :doh:)
I don’t know what kit you’re using (USB/SPDIF etc) but if you run into a specific problem drop me a pm or something.
Hi Welder,
I managed to find the ASIO download for foobar here:
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio
I downloaded this and dropped it into the components folder for foobar.
I am using USB.
Hi Will,
I tried a number of times to do this, but to no effect. If it matters any, I am running the bog standard winamp.
Shouldn't be a problem...mine is the Pro version, but there's not much extra functionality :eyebrows:
Drop the file into C:\Program Files\Winamp\Plugins
Re-start winamp...
Then select Options/Preferences/Plugins/Output you should see ASIO as an option
John, just for the sake of ballance I'm going to give Foobar a go too ;)
Hi Nathan.
Have you got asio4all installed?
The thing is with foobar Will is if you’re prepared to go the distance you can get a very low latency replay and the CPU usage is less. (wrote a bit about it in my server thread and elsewhere)
The other thing is to my ears at least, foobar sounds better. I’m told its because of the volume control and data retrieval process but you would need to know more about how music players are coded to make a proper assessment than I know.
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 13:46
Hi Nathan.
Have you got asio4all installed?
Hi Welder,
Yes, I have asio4all installed, and after checking around in foobar, it looks like it has been picked up automatically.
I see it persent in File > Preferences > Playback > Output > ASIO Virtual Devices
Should be sorted so?!
I have mentioned this elsewhere…….
If you’re serious about computer audio there is a lot of stuff that helps to keep the tunes flowing and a smile on your face.
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
Get the above and run it. If you see spikes then you will have problems at some point.
What gives the peaks are normally service interrupts and you need to disable these services. Of course, this means you cant use the computer for anything else but you wouldn’t try to cook chips on your valve amp would you or use a record deck as a potting wheel.
My XP based server has a max latency of 5us, no peaks. It’s taken hours of messing about and numerous crashes to achieve this so make sure you have a boot disc ready.
Read everything here
http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/
even if you don’t use Cplay most of the recommendations here apply to getting decent audio from file. Be warned, not all their recommendations work and some will or at least did for me give an instant crash.
Nathan, as long as you can see a green square with a white arrow on your taskbar when the tunes are playing asio4all is working. Next, try to get the asio buffer size to minimum.
You’ll know when you’ve gone to far because the sound will play up.
The above is also relevant to you Nathan
The thing is with foobar Will is if you’re prepared to go the distance you can get a very low latency replay and the CPU usage is less. (wrote a bit about it in my server thread and elsewhere)
The other thing is to my ears at least, foobar sounds better. I’m told its because of the volume control and data retrieval process but you would need to know more about how music players are coded to make a proper assessment than I know.
I'm not that fussed about latency (at least I don't think I am, it's more of an issue for musicians isn't it?), and I turn off volume control in winamp anyway, I also apply ReplayGain & RG pre-amp in the FFSoX input plugin, so winamp is doing as little DSP as possible.
Can you turn off volume control in Foobar ?
Will
I’m told you can turn it off but I haven’t managed it yet :doh:
Latency does matter, its like dick size mate, those with small ones say it doesn’t matter ;)
I’ve been seriously shocked by how much difference low latency makes in playback :eek:
Will, I dont use replay gain, i think its a bit of a no no mate.
Will
I’m told you can turn it off but I haven’t managed it yet :doh:
Latency does matter, its like dick size mate, those with small ones say it doesn’t matter ;)
I’ve been seriously shocked by how much difference low latency makes in playback :eek:
Let me try and get my head around this...
The larger my buffer settings in Winamp, the greater the latency, but no dropouts.
I was under the impression that a low latency figure was important if you were using the computer as an instrument, I.E as close to real time as possible, not for simply playing back music :scratch:
Well, I was under the same impression Will but my ears tell me different and so do a number of people way ahead of me in computer audio.
Maybe time to forget about conventional wisdom and bits are bits and start tinkering and listening.
Seriously mate, I’ve spent weeks at this file audio optimization and all the rules are out the window atm :scratch:
I try something and see if it works, given up on the scientific approach.
I’m getting seriously good sound from the server lash up (its not even boxed up) and most of the problems I was having with using the laptop have gone.
Nathan.
In Windows XP try umapping the Kmixer.
These instructions use an Empirical device as an example.
Go to Control Panel - System Hardware - Device Manager - Sound Video and Game Controllers – Empirical 1.1 - Right-Click and select Properties - Audio Devices – Empirical 1.1 - Properties - Set "Do not use audio features" and set "Do not map through this Device"
Asio can be a bit of a pain to configure sometimes.
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 15:19
Nathan.
In Windows XP try umapping the Kmixer.
These instructions use an Empirical device as an example.
Go to Control Panel - System Hardware - Device Manager - Sound Video and Game Controllers – Empirical 1.1 - Right-Click and select Properties - Audio Devices – Empirical 1.1 - Properties - Set "Do not use audio features" and set "Do not map through this Device"
Asio can be a bit of a pain to configure sometimes.
Found this on line, doesn't say that the instructions unmap Kmixer, but it as good as says it:
http://www.usbdacs.com/Windows/Windows.html
Well, I was under the same impression Will but my ears tell me different and so do a number of people way ahead of me in computer audio.
Maybe time to forget about conventional wisdom and bits are bits and start tinkering and listening.
Seriously mate, I’ve spent weeks at this file audio optimization and all the rules are out the window atm :scratch:
I try something and see if it works, given up on the scientific approach.
I’m getting seriously good sound from the server lash up (its not even boxed up) and most of the problems I was having with using the laptop have gone.
John I don't doubt your knowledge and experience in this area at all...hence me trying out Foobar & a few latency experiments...
My M-Audio 2496 allows me to define a DMA Buffer latency from 64 through to 2048 samples...I've tried foobar on both ends of the scale, if there is a difference I can not detect it ;)
I've also compared winamp (without FFSoX) directly with foobar (both set to 24bit out), again I can not tell the difference.
I will say however that Foobar's out of the box settings are better than winamp's, it takes a while to lick winamp into shape.
However winamp with FFSoX set to 24/96 & with it also applying replaygain, rather than winamp, and my M-Audio buffer set to 2046 wins the contest, on my setup anyway. ;)
If I have to listen to the intro of 'yours is no disgrace' one more time :doh:
Perhaps your setup benefits from your configuration :)
Found this on line, doesn't say that the instructions unmap Kmixer, but it as good as says it:
http://www.usbdacs.com/Windows/Windows.html
Some useful info there, part way down it tells how to unmap.
Give it a whirl and let use know
RochaCullen
13-04-2011, 15:59
Some useful info there, part way down it tells how to unmap.
Give it a whirl and let use know
Yes, I followed these instructions:
We have had better and easier results with J River when used with Vista and Direct Sound. But if you are using XP (SP2 or SP3 best) then you will have to bypass the KMIXER by use of an ASIO driver:
ASIO4ALL this free driver is easy to use and configure.
ASIO2KS this free driver is also very easy to use
ASIO USB Audio is 49 Euro’s and is suppose to be very good, but setup is a little weak.
Some people think that better than ASIO is to un-map the USB DAC device from the KMIXER. This is done as follows:
Go Control Panel => Sounds and Audio Device => Select Hardware Tab => Select USB Audio Device.
Click Properties Button => Select Properties Tab => Click the “+” to the left of [+] Audio Devices that will pop down USB Audio Devices.
Select USB Audio Devices and click Properties.
Check both Use audio features of this device and Do not map through this device.
==> [ Apply ] <==
That will map through the KMIXER without using ASIO.
And when I got to the bottom, the language he used managed to confuse me.
That will map through the KMIXER without using ASIO.
And here is me thinking the point was to
un-map the USB DAC device from the KMIXER.
Hmm.
Bit confusing that last line, slightly different from my first post which says "set do not use audio features"
Stratmangler
13-04-2011, 16:11
Eight pages of posts, and you've still not got there:doh:
I refer everyone to post 2 of the thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=203781&postcount=2 - you can forget all of this Asio this, Wasapi that and latency bollards in one go;)
I’m far from knowledgably about this stuff Will and as you say, the type of setup one has must make a considerable difference :)
I am very interested in file audio though and I’ve probably caught a bout of audio nervosa in the process :doh:
I thought I could hear a difference between Winamp and foobar for example but it wasn’t anything obvious, just over time I preferred the sound of foobar. In a blind short term listening test I very much doubt I could pick one from the other but over time….who knows.
My current view is not to have any additional processing in the signal path, no bit upsampling, no replay gain, no sound card in the computer, no streaming etc etc, as basic as I can get without going the NOS route.
For me, with my setup I’ve had excellent results but not night and day stuff by any means.
There are quite a few people coming to this forum interested in file audio and in general, here at least, its primarily seen as a convenient but inferior method of music replay and gets promoted as such.
A few hours spent reading the Cplay site for example show that there is a lot more to file based audio than plugging in a Dac to the home computer and streaming a few tunes.
The aggravation and time needed to make the fine tweaks may put many off and some may not even hear a difference, but the same can be said for all the other replay methods.
If I could achieve anything with these types of posts it would be to get people to go away and experiment with differing setups and players and avoid the dogmatic "bits are bits" and "nothing makes any difference until the Dac" approach because I believe this approach is misguided and will lead to poorer results than are availible using file.
All I can say is the optimizations I’ve done do make a difference and I’m talking the kind of difference you may get between a decent basic Dac and something more “high end” so we’re talking small percentages here but noticeable.
Your setup, if I’ve got it right, is NAS based and streaming which is somewhat different from a dedicated wired asynchronous transfer setup.
Anyway, I can only comment on what I’ve found using the kit I have availible but there are a lot of computer audio based people out there who have found similar improvements going this route. Perhaps we are all deaf and afflicted with audio nervosa but it seems that even some of the dedicated vinyl people come away from listening o properly setup file based system with a smile on their faces and that mate at the end of the day is what matters :)
John as you say one config/setup may work better for a given set of hardware, latency may be more important in your environment.
I suppose one other major difference is that this is my 'work' computer so it's probably more important for me to use bigger buffers, as it prevents contention from other programs etc. :)
Chris, you know fine well I'm a big SB convert (4 in the house if you include that bag of merde called the Boom), but they are absolutely useless when it comes to writing documents and designing databases :lolsign:...and I do like to listen to stuff when I'm working.
Any more trouble from you young man and I'll mention the 'L' word ;)
Stratmangler
13-04-2011, 16:40
No more trouble from me boss !
Just thought I'd point out the obvious;)
We've got two Squeezeboxes here, the SB3 has been given over to my son's listening pleasure, and the Touch is downstairs in the rig.
Never had any worries, other than what to play, and I've managed to get over any audiophilia nervosa that I may have picked up along the way. :)
Nathan.
If you’ve carried out the instruction for XP on the Ayre site and the green box on the task bar has a white arrow in it while playing music you have bypassed kmixer.
If not then you haven’t set it up properly.
You can dispense with a fair bit of the Win audio stack (prolly realtek drivers) by;
Control panel > Sound and Audio Devices > Harware> double click on realtek high def audio and select disable this device from the bottom window.
However, if you do this nothing else will have access to the audio drivers.
You will be able to see in the asio4all window (click the taskbar icon) that no other audio drivers are availible.
You can go halfway by going to Sounds and Audio Devices (audio) and setting default audio to realtek and ticking the bottom box that says use only this device.
This way system sounds will go through realtek but foobar and asio will bypass.
No more trouble from me boss !
Just thought I'd point out the obvious;)
We've got two Squeezeboxes here, the SB3 has been given over to my son's listening pleasure, and the Touch is downstairs in the rig.
Never had any worries, other than what to play, and I've managed to get over any audiophilia nervosa that I may have picked up along the way. :)
:lol: I think I've just had a bout this afternoon !
Chris wrote:
Eight pages of posts, and you've still not got there
I refer everyone to post 2 of the thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...81&postcount=2 - you can forget all of this Asio this, Wasapi that and latency bollards in one go
If only it wasn’t yet another computer in the chain
If only it didn’t cost money
If only it wasn’t going to be obsolete in a few months
If only it didn’t add latency to the audio chain
If only you could read the bloody screen
If only it wasn’t primarily a wireless streaming solution
If only you could use another music player like xxhighend
If only it didn’t start farting and coughing when the music library gets large
If only it did USB in and out
If only it sounded as good as a decent music server.
Apart from the above it’s a neat little gadget. :lolsign:
Werner Berghofer
13-04-2011, 17:02
you can forget all of this Asio this, Wasapi that and latency bollards in one go
Just get a Mac :)
Just get a Mac
It's the simple solution :lolsign:
Just get a Mac
That is actually a very good option if you’re prepared to stick with Apple stuff.
Kicks the crap out of the touch imo ;)
Just get a Mac
That is actually a very good option if you’re prepared to stick with Apple stuff.
Kicks the crap out of the touch imo ;)
If only it was cheap enough to have one in each room
If only you could synchronise a huge ReplayGain processed playlist across several rooms at once
If only you could distribute the music wirelessly throughout the house without having to put ethernet cable everywhere
If only you could control everything from an android app
If only you didn't have to sell your soul to Steve Jobs
If only it could integrate properly with a Linux server
If only it received FLAC via an asynchronous FTP, without the need for a 'noisy' HD
If only someone made something like a Squeezebox receiver...hurrah they have! :lolsign: :ner:
Just get a Mac :)
Even though I don't like MAC's, I have to fully agree with that statement - simple and effective.
If only Will’s points had anything to do with sound quality :lolsign:
Oh well, it takes all sorts I guess ;)
I’ve never been a convenience, stream in lots of rooms, wireless, no mess and fiddle type.
Sure Will, the Touch has a lot of great features and I would have had one like a shot if it matched my setup better instead of all the hassle of building a server.
I don’t like Apple either, but in this instance; a single source and replay chain they are hard to beat much as I hate having to say so :(
Stratmangler
13-04-2011, 19:21
Chris wrote:
Eight pages of posts, and you've still not got there
I refer everyone to post 2 of the thread http://theartofsound.net/forum/showp...81&postcount=2 - you can forget all of this Asio this, Wasapi that and latency bollards in one go
If only it wasn’t yet another computer in the chain
If only it didn’t cost money
If only it wasn’t going to be obsolete in a few months
If only it didn’t add latency to the audio chain
If only you could read the bloody screen
If only it wasn’t primarily a wireless streaming solution
If only you could use another music player like xxhighend
If only it didn’t start farting and coughing when the music library gets large
If only it did USB in and out
If only it sounded as good as a decent music server.
Apart from the above it’s a neat little gadget. :lolsign:
I've highlight all of the incorrect statements, now I'll address them one by one
Obsolete ? Says who ? The SB3 on the home network is 4 or 5 years old and still giving stirling sevice, and I expect the same from the Touch.
How does it add latency to the chain ?
It may well be a simple computer, but there are no audio drivers screwing up audio delivery.
The screen on the Touch is not easy to read from across the room - I'll give you that.
However, as I run the server client on a PC I can access and control Squeezeboxes on the network from a browser page.
I can and do control them from my Android mobile too.
I have one wired Squeezebox and one wireless Squeezebox on my network.
Where do you get the idea that it's primarily a wireless device ?
It's primarily a network streaming device, and it works best in that configuration - whether it's wired or wireless is immaterial.
I've never had a problem with either Squeezebox coughing and farting - you don't have issues like that if you run the server client on a capable device.
The last highlighted comment is the best.
If it didn't deliver the digits to my DAC and create a good sound then I would have ditched the Squeezebox years ago.
Fact is it ain't me f**king about with this and that setting trying to get around the effects of sound drivers on Windows, so stick that it yer pipe and smoke it ;)
FYI I also have an EMU0202 USB DAC, which works asynchronously via USB, and I never use it for playback, other than stuff I've recorded and am in the process of editing.
The EMU can also deliver 24/192 files.
I actually find it difficult to comprehend why someone would want to play music directly off a computer when there are devices like the Squeezebox, Airport Express, Sonos etc. around - they seem like much more sensible options to me, keep the files stored remotely and just deliver them where they're required with no faffing about.
But that's me;)
You tell 'im Chris :lol:
At the end of the day, whatever works for the individual should be the only concern. There is no 'right' way in my book and I'm very happy with what I have and it's different to a Touch or John's 'Uber' build. I don't have the time to spend weeks and weeks tinkering, I just want to listen to music and relax when I get home from work. I spent a day building it and another day fine tuning - job done and I'm happy :)
(and I saved a bunch doing it too)
Okay Chris, you’re a fan :)
No problem with that.
I’m not.
Werner Berghofer
13-04-2011, 21:31
I just want to listen to music and relax when I get home from work. I spent a day building it and another day fine tuning - job done and I'm happy :)
Hear, hear! I wholeheartedly agree.
If only Will’s points had anything to do with sound quality :lolsign:
Oh well, it takes all sorts I guess ;)
I’ve never been a convenience, stream in lots of rooms, wireless, no mess and fiddle type.
Sure Will, the Touch has a lot of great features and I would have had one like a shot if it matched my setup better instead of all the hassle of building a server.
Just to be Mr Picky...I actually have 2 Receivers and one SB3, I don't have a touch, and I've taken some time to implement and configure the silent linux server that operates these clients, including full RAID synchronisation. :)
Keeping to standard redbook FLAC the SB receiver (with a linear PSU) is a very good coax source for my main DAC, easily as good if not better than my Audiolab CDM transport. The wi-fi TCP/IP asynchronous file transfer is totally reliable, and with no local HD there's plenty of 'galvanic isolation' from the server. The fact I can also have them in other rooms using the same data source simultaneously is a superb benefit.
They're £99 each, work out of the box, and can be controlled by my phone or any browser enabled device. That leaves a lot more money for the DAC ;)
Oh and you should try 'fiddling' with a Linux server...none of your soft lad GUI interfaces, unravelling Perl tarballs and the like :lolsign: :ner:
Absolutely I do like the convenience, extra functionality, and neatness, particularly given that there are limited down sides to it :cool:
kininigin
13-04-2011, 23:20
Just want to make you aware that while asio4all is an excellent piece of software it isn’t a true driver and it has its limitations.
Asio4all will only cope with 24/48 max.
For any higher res music you want to play with XP you’ll either need to purchase a true driver such as the one Will linked to or use this http://reclock.free.fr/
and Media Player Classic.
Win7 on the other hand will play natively 24/96 max and bypass what substitutes for the XP kmixer without an asio driver or wrap but, Win7 requires a lot of “adjustment” to minimize the OS impact and improve latency.
Im using Asio4all into foobar on windows xp and i can listen to 24/96 files :scratch:
That’s handy then Darren. I can’t with my foobar and asio and HRT set up, it skips and freezes.
That’s handy then Darren. I can’t with my foobar and asio and HRT set up, it skips and freezes.
Even using higher latency/buffer settings John? :scratch: (which I know is not your preferred method)
I know I'm using Winamp, but I'm guessing that they work in a similar way, as soon as I started resampling to 24/96 I had to actvate the software buffers in winamp, along with largest hardware buffer available on my Soundcard. The data volumes are about 3 times that of redbook ;)
I probably need to make mine larger as I'm using the computer for other tasks during playback, and it's not duo core ;)
Without doing this I was getting dropouts/underruns and had problems with gapless playback too, there's a nice little 'status' screen in winamp's directsound output plugin for this, I've not had an underrun for about a week :)
Output format: 96000 Hz, 24 bits per sample, 2 channels
Active buffer size: 2000 ms (1152000 bytes)
Device: "02: M-Audio Delta AP S/PDIF"
Mixing: software, primary buffer: active (software)
Buffer playback cursor: 654336 bytes
[============================#=====================]
Buffer write cursor: 622080 bytes
[===========================#======================]
Data buffered:
Total: 1980 ms (1140480 bytes)
Async buffer: 36 ms (20736 bytes)
Buffer locks done: 44132
Underruns: 0
Time played: 26:41.136 (923394816 bytes)
Time written: 26:43.116 (922254336 bytes)
Total time played: 2d 10:14:42.770
Volume: 0.000000 dB / 0.000000 dB
kininigin
14-04-2011, 10:26
That’s handy then Darren. I can’t with my foobar and asio and HRT set up, it skips and freezes.
Could it be a hdd issue john?
The reason i ask is,yesterday i transfered all my files to my secondary internal hdd and when i play them in foobar there were glitches and skips as you described.I tried different settings but to no avail.As soon as i copied them back to the master drive and played from there everthing was fine.
I've no idea why that would be,but maybe your having a similar issue.
Could it be a hdd issue john?
The reason i ask is,yesterday i transfered all my files to my secondary internal hdd and when i play them in foobar there were glitches and skips as you described.I tried different settings but to no avail.As soon as i copied them back to the master drive and played from there everthing was fine.
I've no idea why that would be,but maybe your having a similar issue.
I think John's using a laptop...
That's odd Darren, normal logic would suggest that reading the data from a secondary internal drive should give better throughput, as there's less contention with the OS/swapfile drive...are all your drives SATAII (if they're IDE then I could understand it, as they're single threaded master/slave), disk cache size, fragmentation, the same spin speed, perhaps your system drive is 7.2k, and the secondary 5.6k :scratch: But it does sound like you're I/O bound when using the secondary drive...
kininigin
14-04-2011, 13:28
I think John's using a laptop...
That's odd Darren, normal logic would suggest that reading the data from a secondary internal drive should give better throughput, as there's less contention with the OS/swapfile drive...are all your drives SATAII (if they're IDE then I could understand it, as they're single threaded master/slave), disk cache size, fragmentation, the same spin speed, perhaps your system drive is 7.2k, and the secondary 5.6k :scratch: But it does sound like you're I/O bound when using the secondary drive...
Both drives are sata (seagate barracuda and maxtor)and 7200 spin rate so should be no issues.It's baffling me to be honest but im not to concerned,i just use the main drive and use the other for back up.although im down to about 150gb left on the main drive so maybe should think about a 1TB as my main.
I have tried just about every combination of drives, latency settings, hardware and software buffers with asio4all+foobar+HRT+XP with no success. It seems from what I’ve read I’m not the only one with this problem.
Anyway I’m very pleased to say……no, let me rephrase that, I’m f*****g delighted, nay ecstatic, delirious in fact that I finally got linux voyager/debian + ALSA to work (with a bit of help from a friend) on both laptop and server so as far as I’m concerned that’s me and microshite finished :):ner::ner:
……..I will eventually understand what I did that made sound come out the blunt end :scratch:
In fact, if anyone wanted to do the audiophile community possibly the greatest service ever offered, then a step by step (and I mean total idiots) guide to setting up Linux and ALSA to produce bit perfect audio would probably be it.
It might also help to prevent people buying Macs and that can only be a good thing…..cant it?
(gorn orf to find some very serious drugs and a nursing home) :lolsign:
Both drives are sata (seagate barracuda and maxtor)and 7200 spin rate so should be no issues.It's baffling me to be honest but im not to concerned,i just use the main drive and use the other for back up.although im down to about 150gb left on the main drive so maybe should think about a 1TB as my main.
Baffling indeed, perhaps it's a motherboard issue...straw clutching I'm afraid :scratch::scratch:
You could try some performance benchmarking software just to check, I think these guys do a trial version http://www.hdtune.com/
Worth a punt just to check ;)
I'd be wary of keeping my data on the same drive as my windows OS, given the number of times I've had to perform a format/rebuild over the years
I have tried just about every combination of drives, latency settings, hardware and software buffers with asio4all+foobar+HRT+XP with no success. It seems from what I’ve read I’m not the only one with this problem.
Anyway I’m very pleased to say……no, let me rephrase that, I’m f*****g delighted, nay ecstatic, delirious in fact that I finally got linux voyager/debian + ALSA to work (with a bit of help from a friend) on both laptop and server so as far as I’m concerned that’s me and microshite finished :):ner::ner:
……..I will eventually understand what I did that made sound come out the blunt end :scratch:
In fact, if anyone wanted to do the audiophile community possibly the greatest service ever offered, then a step by step (and I mean total idiots) guide to setting up Linux and ALSA to produce bit perfect audio would probably be it.
It might also help to prevent people buying Macs and that can only be a good thing…..cant it?
(gorn orf to find some very serious drugs and a nursing home) :lolsign:
You'll be writing shell scripts next ;)
The next time I have to rebuild my PC I'm going to try ubuntu (I have a 10.10 desktop installation disk given to me on an IBM partner day), which seems like a nice compromise for ease of use. I also think that ALSA has built in support for M-Audio devices, so it should suit my hardware.
Make sure you keep some notes John :lolsign:
You'll be writing shell scripts next ;)
The next time I have to rebuild my PC I'm going to try ubuntu (I have a 10.10 desktop installation disk given to me on an IBM partner day), which seems like a nice compromise for ease of use. I also think that ALSA has built in support for M-Audio devices, so it should suit my hardware.
Make sure you keep some notes John :lolsign:
No need to wait for a re-build, just use one of the plethora of Linux LiveCD's - PCLinuxOS would be a good choice.
To my ears, Linux/ALSA has always had the edge over M$ on my kit.
The ALSA module martix is online and Envy24 based s/cards are very well supported. There are a few quirks viz the need for format conversion on them. They required S32_le but ALSA handles the bit padding in the backgorund as long as you address then as a "plughw" device and not directly as a "hw" device when using the CLI , most GUI sound players will allow you to pick the correct device name for a drop down list.
John has made a good choice with a debian based distro, it's nice to have another Linux convert.
Take for example my Envy24HT based s/card. It's a sort of cheap ESI JULI@ which I only use for optical out. It has rubbish drivers in M$, but in Linux you get full access to all freqs up to 192KHz at 24bit simply by giving ALSA the option to treat the s/card as if it was an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1. Impossible under M$ without flashing the card's BIOS and even then you loss some of the cards functions.
On big plus about Envy24 s/cards ( M-audio and other makes) is they have two dedicated xtal oscillators, one each for the 44KHz and 48KHz frequency families.
There's nothing that special to do to get bit-perfect playback and the best SQ . Avoid sound mixers, set any/all software volume controls to max, do without Pulse Audio ( Ubuntu installs it by default) use audio file formats that avoid sample rate conversion.
For the paranoid you can always kill your desktop with an "init 3" at the CLi and have the minimum of processes running before using your favourite (ncurses) CLI based player. That's not something you can do on M$. And as to the future, Linux is already USB audio class 2.0 ready.
What was all that in English :eek::lolsign:
The above imo is exactly what the problem is for the average computer user when it comes to Linux.
I’m not being rude and any advice I can get is more than appreciated because I’m pretty clueless :scratch:
But, I need to understand the advice and this was exactly the problem I’ve had in the past, the Linux guys speak geekish and us simple folks haven’t got a clue what they’re on about :doh:
You crack me up John, and always have the knack of posting what I suspect everyone else thinks, but are too pussy to post! :D (no offence intended, of course to any party!)
Werner Berghofer
14-04-2011, 16:09
It might also help to prevent people buying Macs and that can only be a good thing
This sounds like a serious religious order.
This sounds like a serious religious order.
More like an irreligious one ;)
I think we're all file based music converts on this thread...the rest is mostly with my tongue firmly in my cheek :cool:
No need to wait for a re-build, just use one of the plethora of Linux LiveCD's - PCLinuxOS would be a good choice.
To my ears, Linux/ALSA has always had the edge over M$ on my kit.
The ALSA module martix is online and Envy24 based s/cards are very well supported. There are a few quirks viz the need for format conversion on them. They required S32_le but ALSA handles the bit padding in the backgorund as long as you address then as a "plughw" device and not directly as a "hw" device when using the CLI , most GUI sound players will allow you to pick the correct device name for a drop down list.
John has made a good choice with a debian based distro, it's nice to have another Linux convert.
Take for example my Envy24HT based s/card. It's a sort of cheap ESI JULI@ which I only use for optical out. It has rubbish drivers in M$, but in Linux you get full access to all freqs up to 192KHz at 24bit simply by giving ALSA the option to treat the s/card as if it was an Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1. Impossible under M$ without flashing the card's BIOS and even then you loss some of the cards functions.
On big plus about Envy24 s/cards ( M-audio and other makes) is they have two dedicated xtal oscillators, one each for the 44KHz and 48KHz frequency families.
There's nothing that special to do to get bit-perfect playback and the best SQ . Avoid sound mixers, set any/all software volume controls to max, do without Pulse Audio ( Ubuntu installs it by default) use audio file formats that avoid sample rate conversion.
For the paranoid you can always kill your desktop with an "init 3" at the CLi and have the minimum of processes running before using your favourite (ncurses) CLI based player. That's not something you can do on M$. And as to the future, Linux is already USB audio class 2.0 ready.
Chris, you're hired!!! ;)
You're now the official AOS linux guru
Good skills mate :cool:
What was all that in English :eek::lolsign:
The above imo is exactly what the problem is for the average computer user when it comes to Linux.
I’m not being rude and any advice I can get is more than appreciated because I’m pretty clueless :scratch:
But, I need to understand the advice and this was exactly the problem I’ve had in the past, the Linux guys speak geekish and us simple folks haven’t got a clue what they’re on about :doh:
Believe me John, I am one of the simple folks. Although I will admit to having earnt my living in IT development in the distant past. What I know about Linux is self-taught and born out of necessity ( no cash for M$ software) and curiosity. I'm certainly no guru, but I have used Linux on home machines for a number of years.
If I'm guilty of geek speak, then I'm sorry and I'll try harder to stick to plain English.
Certainly there is a learning curve for anyone who makes the transition from Windows to Linux, but I don't believe it's as steep as it once was. I'd say that Linux has progressed to the point where it's as virtually "plug and play" as M$. But it does offer the user who wants to dig a little deeper far greater control and some extremely powerful software tools. Partly, the trick is to pick a variety of Linux which has good support, documentation, wiki and perhaps most importantly an open and friendly forum where there is no such thing as a stupid question. Ubuntu. Mint, and PCLinuxOS fit the bill. Whereas others like Slackware and Gentoo and even Arch I'd say are ones to tackle when you are more comfortable with Linux.
As mentioned already, you can always dip your toe in the water by trying out on of the many LiveCD versions. That is you run Linux from a special CD you can burn in Nero in Windows (or any other Windows app that will burn a CD from an iso file) . Any existing Windows install will not be touched. Just stick the CD in your drive, wait for Linux to load and away you go. I haven't looked, but there's got to be some youtube videos to show peps how it's done.
Perhaps I'm biased, but I really do think at the moment Linux is ahead of the audio game cf. M$. As to the Apple Mac world, I've never used them and don't feel I need to when I can tinker with Linux for free.
Well thanks for not taking offence Chris (seems to happen very easily here) and thank you for coming back with a reply in English :)
And yes I agree with you about Linux, for music certainly.
I came to computers pretty late in life so I’ve found most of it a bit of a headache. However, I’ve got Linux up and running now……..still not quite sure how……and I will learn albeit slowly.
The newest issue of Ubuntu is definitely more user friendly and as soon as I’m a bit more confident in what I’m doing I’ll get XP off my main rig and have another go with Wine and the games I couldn’t run in the past.
It is, I must say a relief not to have to mess about with drivers and asio and different players for audio and I agree with you, I think it does sound better but I really couldn’t say why.
There are probably a great many people who want to abandon MS. There are so many different Linux Operating systems and tbh trying to discover if one was better than another for audio was the hardest part. It was only when I discovered you could “graft” voyager onto a Linux OS that things started to make a bit more sense.
It’s these simple questions that imo are hardest to find the answer to on the various forums, very helpful though many of them are.
John,
No problem, particularly as on reflection I could see I was guilty as charged. :)
It's not always easy communicating on forums rather than face to face, where you can pick up all the signals. I like it here, and will contribute if I think I have something useful to add or need questions answered, but if I've talked out my rear end I expect someone to tell me. Some of the forums I've visited horrify me, but not AOS.
I've never been a game player, and so have no experience of Wine, apart from slurping copious amounts of the red stuff. Having both Windows and Linux installed on your PC is the obvious answer to enable you to use your games. This will mean setting up the correct mechanism to boot into either Windows or Linux as a menu choice when your PC is booted, often referred to as a "dual boot" or "multi-boot" set up.
If you don't want to dual boot with both Windows and Linux on the same hard drive, then using a "Virtual Machine" might be the other option to try. This is a bit like Russian Dolls. A Virtual Machine allows Windows XP to run inside Linux. Have a look at "VirtualBox", and there a ways and means of dealing with activation / genuine issues. Although Windows XP runs well as a virtual machine, using games that need good 3D graphics performance could be a stumbling block, you'll have to read around on that. There's a long running thread about working games under Virtualbox (Linux Host - Windows guest) on the Vbox forum at:
http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2525
I think one of the obvious barriers to people making the transition form MS to Linux is they may never have installed an operating system before. They will also rightly want not want to wipe out an existing Windows install and could well know nothing, or little, about hard drive formatting and partitions. This is why the Linux LiveCD is such a brilliant idea and allows anyone to try Linux without fear of messing up their Windows set up.
Anyway, you are already making good progress with Linux and if you think I could help with any of those "simple questions" I'd be happy to try to answer them.
PS Somethijng for all technopobes : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAG39jKi0lI&feature=player_embedded
John,
One thing I wasn't clear about was when you said " when I discovered you could “graft” voyager onto a Linux OS" ...
I though perhaps this meant you had chosen to use the "Voyage MPD" Linux version. If so, then I can see that you'd be faced with a comand line interface system and no easy point and click stuff. Virutally all configuration has to be done by hand in "Voyage MPD". That's a steep learning curve for a Linux novice.
Anyway, I thought I'd give it a whirl so installed it as a Virtual Machine in VirtualBox. My first impression of "Voyage MPD" are:
1. It install fine with a very small footprint for both memory and CPU usage. So it's ideal for it's proposed hardware targets, but appears to work equally on a generic PC.
2. The actual install process is a bit cryptic, with a less than clear menu system and you could easy wipe a hard drive if not careful.
3. Setting up network connections, card/WIFI is going to be a bit tedious wiht some pretty archane commands to use. (When using it as a virtual machine this is handled automatically )
4. Being Debian based, there's a huge repository of software you can draw on if/when needed.
5. After installation you are left with having to sort out getting your keyboard layout correct. This means downloading an installing two bits of software console-data and console-common and configuring language and layout. This means straight away you would need to know how to download and install these packages (the Debian name for software), and how to configure them. But before you download anything for the first time you'd have to know how to effectively update the list of sofware available from the debian repositories. The place "Voyage MPD" linux gets it's updates and downlaods is kept in a file. This defaults to a server in the TW domain, so it's very very slow. Better to edit this file to pint to a UK location.
This kind of stuff is handled for you in the other Linux version I've mentioned.
6. In Liunx, just as in Windows, its bad practice to do everything as the super user, what windows calls "Administrator" Linux calls "root" . So you would need to add a user give and give them a password etc. Again, all this has to be done at the CLI (Command Line Interface). One thing you would normally have to think about is what "groups" a user should belong to, but "Voyage MPD" Linux seems to have few it any set up by default. Groups are the Linux way of compartmentalising access to different sets of software. It's quite typical to find an "audio" group in Linux which a user would also need to belong to, but this seems not the case with "Voyage MPD".
7. So with your software sources updated, a few extra packages installed, the keyboard/language configured and a normal user added you are ready to get to grips with MPD, the music player server/client.
8. I should have said VirutalBox allows a virtual machine to connect to any USB devices your real system is using. "Voyage MPD" Linux auto detects my TC-7250 DAC when the USB input is used. As show by the "aplay -l" command.
9. The version of "Voyage MPD" Linux I installed, voayge-mpd-current.iso has a real time kernel - 2.6.33.7-rt29-voyage. Oohh, that's nice, built for low latecny etc.
NowI need to get my head around uisng MPD.
Hey Chris.
First just please don’t drop dead on me for a bit or go on a major piss up :eek::lol:
Yes, I have, or at least had before the most recent crash, Voyager MPD up and running on the server but I had a lot of help.
Having been click fed by Windows for a while the idea of using a Command Line type interface threw me a bit and then as you mention just finding the files and updates was a mission. However, I started all this computer stuff with DOS (yep, I really am that old) and once I had got a slightly better grip on the syntax and recognized where stuff had to go things improved.
Anyway, at the moment I’ve just crashed Ubuntu on the laptop (got 3 machines, laptop, sever, PC) trying to get rid of Pulse Audio and replace it with ALSA so I’m trying to get that sorted.
Once I’ve done that I’ll have another look at Voyager MPD and hopefully have some more intelligent comments and questions, hopefully tomorrow sometime.
I was hoping perhaps Marco could cut the computer stuff out of the thread and make a separate topic for it somewhere. That way we and anyone else who may be interested can do the geek bit without boring the pants off the others. Marco?
John,
I've only got one word to say about DOS, well two actually: PUNCH CARDS! My first exposure to anything to do with computers was having to write some trivial programs in FORTRAN. That was 40 years ago, so I'm a genuine Old Fart and fully paid up member of the grumpy club.
I've avoided using Ubuntu, or any other version of Linux, that uses PulseAudio. I believe it's a bit of a pain trying to get rid of it from Ubuntu. If you get bogged down with this there are quite a lot of web refs on the topic "ubuntu remove pulse audio" e.g.
http://www.jeffsplace.net/node/12
http://jechem.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-to-remove-pulseaudio-on-ubuntu-1010.html
I made an error in post #113 above, in point 6 - "Voayge MPD" does have an "audio group", in fact it has many of teh usaul groups you;d find on any version of Linux.
Yes, this conversation should probably be moved.
Cheers for the links Chris :)
I’m glad to hear you’re a paid up member of the grumpy club ;)
Anyway, that’s the first step sorted. I now have Ubuntu working with ALSA on a partition on my laptop, the other partition has my super stripped XP.
I haven’t had much time to mess around with it because I got Grandchilded late morning.
After I’ve had a play with Ubuntu/ALSA I’ll move on to the Server and Voyage MPD and see if I can get it installed on a separate hard drive without going round my mates looking stressed and pissy. While I’ve got a working version of Voyage MPD I wont be happy until I’m able to do it myself so I expect that’s when the heavy medication will be needed :doh:
John ,
Funny you should mention medication 'coz I've been doing all this through a drug fuelled haze, hence all the typos and it took me two goes to get MPD/NCMPC going in my virtual machine.
It's OK I'm not a user, I'm just stuffed full of pain killers after undergoing yet more knee surgery.
Anyway, stick with the penguin mate, you'll do fine.
Hey Chris.
Lots of empathy here for the knee. Good luck at the techno butchers ;)
I’m due a hospital revisit next month to check out my last leg break (fibia and tibia plus a bone chip caught behind the Achilles tendon :lol:) I’ve bust a few over the years.
Well so far I’ve managed to avoid reaching for the heavy medication when trying to sort out Ubuntu. In fact, I’m rather pleased with it :)
Interesting to note that it does actually delete an application rather than just hide it as in Window. This means you can do some serious app stripping and be confident it’s gone.
I’ve got some rather impressive latency figures for what has amounted to not an awful lot of tinkering.
No problems getting Ubuntu to recognize any of my external drives or the two USB Dacs I’ve tried.
Also cool to see Ubuntu has USB3 support.
Anyway, where I’m a bit stumped is finding a media player that supports album art, cue sheets and will play Monkey Audio formats, ALAC, Flac, WAV and WAVPACK etc.
I’ve tried VLC and don’t like it. I’ve tried Songbird and I’m not sure yet. I’ve tried Tangerine which looks promising. Any suggestions?
John,
Well this is number six knee op in this last decade. The last one on my left knee was a disaster and I was basically left disabled, and right now I won't have a good leg to stand on if the right knee doesn't recover.
If you are suffering multiple breaks, that's a bugger. I had my tib and fib busted by a car when I was knocked off my bicycle years ago at a set of traffic lights. The silly sod turned right and straight into me as I was going straight ahead, and it's true - everything goes into slow slow motion as you fly through the air and descend to earth with a bang. It took me 9 months to get back on the bike and that was when I was young and fit.
Being back on two crutches again is so bloody depressing.
Anyway, back to Linux. To be honest, I've never bothered that much about latency for audio playback. The linux versions I use have well crafted kernels. By the way, how are you actually measuring this?
Support for Monkey Audio format (ape) can be a bit of a stumbling block. As my desktop runs KDE I've either used Amarok which does everything you want except handle ape files or Qmmp which is more basic and does handle ape files. When I feel picky I use aplay or mplayer at the CLI. But you don't want to install Amarok in Ubuntu as it will pull in too many dependencies.
You could have a look at "Clementine", or perhaps this new player "DeadBeef"
which looks interesting as it has no Gnome or KDE dependencies and does all you askekd for. Otherwise the usual suspects for Gnome are: rythmbox, banshee and audacious. I haven't looked, but does MPD and MPDclients have plugins for cover art etc? That's another possible to try. The MPD client Sonata which is a GTK+ app ( i.e built for gnome) says is does art , lyrics etc.
A couple of refs for you:
http://www.enfew.com/top-10-media-players-for-ubuntu-linux/
http://www.ubuntugeek.com/ubuntu-media-players-overview.html
If you try deadbeef, let me know how it goes. In the worst case scenario Linux has a CLI program called "mac" which will allow you to decompress any ape files and change their format.
Hmmm, seem to have run out of hammers. I tried the toffee hammers and ended up working my way up to the 14lb sledge. Looks like me and Ubuntu aren’t going to be mates.
The OS itself is in fact rather neat, small footprint, reasonably easy to get around once you’re come to grips with the Command Line Editor. But, it’s audio we’re interested in and with regard to this, it’s certainly no better than XP and certainly not as easy as Win7 imo.
The problems are best described here
http://www.techradar.com/news/audio/linux-audio-explained-685419
If Logitech Touch like audio is what you’re after then don’t bother with Ubuntu and head straight for Voyage MPD……oh arr, you’ll need the sedatives for that as well.
(Btw, bring in any spare narcotics to the forum please. I’ll be behind the sofa. You’ll know when I’m awake no problem because the language will be pretty ripe and loud)
To answer a couple of your questions Chris.
I was using dplatency checker inside Wine. While the latency figures may not be accurate it does show up any peaks.
It seems Voyage MPD will do album art, remote access and a lot of other stuff I haven’t worked out yet.
I’m going to try Voyage MPD with Sonata inside Virtualbox on the PC next.
The laptop is in need of some post multiple crash attention :doh: :mental:
Well, Ubuntu wouldn't be my first choice for Linux, not least because PulseAudio is too embedded. There is a specialist audio version called “Ubuntu Studio”, but I don't know much about it.
The techradar article gives a good summary but starts from the point that it's all too complex, so it is rather negative. Man one''s complexity is another's flexibility. ALSA for example has at least as good if not better support for many sound cards than Windows except for some notable gaps like Lynx and the advanced Cmedia chips as data was not released for Open Source development. ALSA offers excellent and fine control over stuff like mixing, format and sample rate conversion.
I would agree that the introduction of PulseAudio seemed an unnecessary complication, and avoided it like the plague. But as a KDE user I could not avoid the introduction on Phonon when KDE moved from version 3 to version 4. My a/b comparison of sound apps under KDE3 and KDE4 didn't show anything detrimental and I stuck with using a Xine back end for KDE4 sound apps.
But my PC is a for general purpose as well as multimedia use and I haven't been overly paranoid about audio optimization other than the obvious things like avoiding mixers, sample rate conversion, format conversion and software volume controls. The SQ of audio playback over may DAC is very good to my ears. Perhaps it's possible to squeeze a little more out the audio performance. Right now I don't have a spare partition to install “Voyage MPD” properly and haven't tried running it from a LiveCD yet, it's only installed as Virtual Machine (VM). I must do this to cf with my other Linux installs and see if I can hear any real improvement, my guess is that with my ears and kit I won't detect a difference.
If you are interested in latency have a look at this:
http://www.alsa-project.org/~tiwai/suselabs2003-audio-latency.pdf
There's also an application called “latencytop” available for Debian based Linux.
You can mess around with kernel versions with different pre-emptive schedulers and real time features and different Linux files systems (ext3, ext4, ReiserFS etc.) to your heart's content, that's not something that is available to any Windows user.
If you want to build a sort of DIY Logitech Touch (which is an embedded Linux device) for audio on hardware like the ALIX m/boards then something like “Voyage MPD” or Vortexbox fits the bill.
Have a look at these:
http://cheap-silent-usb-linux-music-server.blogspot.com/
http://plug.noloop.net/sheevaplug-hacks/wireless-audio-and-mail-text-to-speech/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Linux-Plug-Computers-Music-Servers
But on a standard PC you could simply chose to install a server or base version of your favourite Linux which has no desktop environment (ie. no Gnome or KDE) and install the audio stuff you need. There also lightweight desktops like OpenBox, FluxBox and Xfce to try.
I don't have the experience to analyse the logitech Touch's performance critically, I've never heard one but it would be interesting to cf it with my current kit. People say it struggles when loaded with USB drives and both squeezecentre server and client reside on the Touch itself.
If you going to test “Voyage MPD” as a virtual machine in Vbox, then to get network connectivity between your real machine and the VM you'll need to use either “bridged” or “host-only” in the Vbox network setting. This allows you to install sonata or another MPD client on your real machine (host) and to control MPD which is running on the VM (voyage guest). Otherwise the default NAT network mode in the Vbox settings will only allow you to run MPD and a client on the virtual machine.
"Host-only" is more straightforward to use as you don't need to mess with the network config inside "Voyage MPD", unless for some reason you need your real machine to be network reachable from inside the The VM.
This is about as far as I got the other day, I've not had a chance to load any of the MPD web clients into the VM. this would let you point your real machine's web browers at the VM and control MPD.
I've just read this thread from beginning to end and I'm quite exhausted.
I have a stock Squeezebox Classic connected to the Caiman by phono lead because I need the Toslink for the telly. If I'm watching video the audio is carried by HDMI to the TV and looped through to the Caiman by Toslink - it's plenty good enough. If I want to play FLACs directly from the laptop (not often) I connect by USB and run Foobar. With or without WASAPI mode it seems to make no difference.
I can hear no difference between phono S/PDIF, Toslink and USB through headphones or Quad 405-2 and speakers.
If I was starting today I would not bother with the Squeezebox and do as Stan suggested: use a Caiman with cheap Netbook for everything.
Why all the fuss? Just plug it in and listen to the MUSIC!
Thanks for the links Chris.
Back in the day when I had record players I was tweak mad. What helped a lot was having access to a machine shop and knowing how to use the machines and knowledge of what I was trying to achieve and why.
Now it’s a computer for a source. I was introduced to computer based audio by a friend and having heard his system and not heard anything as good to this day I suppose I’m trying to head towards that but without the same level of funds or knowledge. This is the guy who sorted out Voyage MPD on my server when my patience ran out.
I like to know a bit about how stuff works in general and Hi Fi tweaking keeps me amused and probably slightly deluded in believing I’m making considerable improvements to the sound.
So, the objective is to build a file based source that is an improvement over the Touch in power, connectivity, flexibility and hopefully audio quality and teach myself a bit more about computers as I go along. I’m fairly confident with the Windows stuff but as my friend warned me, there will come a point when Windows just won’t let you do what you want without coding knowledge and then it’s over to Linux (his system is Linux based) and it looks like I’ve reached that point.
Oh well, it keeps the brain cells moving around.
I’ll bear in mind the advantages of Host Only configuration. I’m only setting this up on the PC as a learning exercise really. It’s all a lot quicker and easier on a more powerful machine than my laptop.
I’m a bit annoyed with myself for not going for a virtual machine with Ubuntu. I chose dual boot and once Ubuntu is on, grub makes it more than usually difficult to remove. Lesson learnt methinks.
I did consider the Alix board style setup at one point but I was advised that I may find it short of processing power and connectivity options when it comes to trying out DSP applications and hi res formats. It is a good option for the money though when one considers the OS is pre installed and all that’s needed is a power supply and case to get up and running.
Chris Connaker runs an interesting site over there and seems to be a genuine and knowledgeable enthusiast and not overly prone to much of the audiophile hype. I visit the site from time to time but it doesn’t have quite the same atmosphere as AOS.
@Brian
“Why all the fuss? Just plug it in and listen to the MUSIC!”
Sure, a netbook and a Caiman may indeed do the job but where’s the fun that! ;)
Also, I believe it can be bettered and I don’t want a netbook or a Caimen. :eek:
Why all the fuss? Just plug it in and listen to the MUSIC!
That is indeed a valid point, but at John's own admission he's a tweaker and modder and is learning (and saving money) along the way. As I think I have stated elsewhere, there's no right or wrong way, it's what works for the individual - just plugging in is not enough for some people (me included). I sit somewhere in the middle, having started with a netbook and a Caiman, but soon realising I could better it by building a dedicated server. I'm not inclined to go much further at the moment, but I have a 2TB Win7 server that gives me just what I want, much better performance than my CDP and instant access to my entire music library - best thing I ever did and I haven't spent a fortune getting there either :)
Why all the fuss? Just plug it in and listen to the MUSIC!
Well this is basically what I did, connected my Linux PC to a Stan DAC and enjoyed the results.
But for those, like John, who want to pursue alternatives, Linux certainly offers the possibility of something different to a standard PC as a computer transport for file audio. And with many web refs, the ALIX board + embedded Linux with MPD is a very doable project at a reasonable cost.
You could, of course, elect to pay circa £2300 for a Bryston BDP-1 digital player. Take the lid and what have you got? See Below.
A OEM modified ALIX 1.d m/board running Linux and MPD, the bottom half of a ESI JULI@ sound card (Envy24 chipset), modified to give a standard BNC coax connect or AES/EBU (XLR) for digital out, a power supply that has a £10 Mean Well PM05 at its heart with added electronics to give a clean 12v DC to power the board, a display (only readable up close) , standard consumer electronic control buttons linked to the m/board's comm header, and a fancy box. No doubt the embedded Linux has been tweaked but you'll never now how unless you can use the player's rear comm port to connect to it.
£2300 is a lot of money compared to something you could put together for around £200 plus the time to get your head around the Linux configuration and is going to sound just as good.
No doubt the embedded Linux has been tweaked but you'll never now how unless you can use the player's rear comm port to connect to it.
That wasn't one of my more lucid comments, the BDP-1 has a single lan port so depending how the embedded Linux is setup you could simply connect to it using ssh.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.