why no mc from croft?

[kininigin]

This has been on my mind a little lately,from what i can gather most people seem to think mc's are better than mm's sonically(i may have this assumption wrong) and i see alot more people using them than mm's.

So why does glen croft not have this option in his designs?

And if he thinks that mm's are better which makes does he rate?

Does he test with a particular make? Is there a mm which is a perfect match for his phono stages?

[worrasf]

Hi Darren,

I have had this conversation with Glenn as I own a couple of his excellent creations. The following is his response to my question - not marked confidential etc so I'm sure (hope) :( he won't mind.

"I can't recommend any MC stages as I don't like the principle, results or pricing of MC's.
The best operating principle for a cartridge is Moving Iron - this results in the lowest possible mass attached to the cantilever and places the heavy coils and magnets in the body where they cause no problems. The best exponent of this is the Decca which uses the cantilever itself as the moving iron part - all they need is to be assembled properly with a decent tip and to be used in a suitable arm.
I would get a genuine Decca Blue and send it off to the "Garrott brothers" in Australia.
Best regards,
Glenn."

Well, I took him at his word and obtained a fine Decca Blue which was subsequently overhauled by Presence Audio and is delivering stunning results.

I have used various Croft preamps over the last few years all with MM inputs and so have not used a MC since I got rid of my LP12/Ittok/Troika

I don't think there are any MM's that are specific matches for the Croft MM phono stage I have used Astatic MF-100, Reson Reca, AT 150 mlx, Nagaoka MP11 Boron, Music Maker III and latterly the Decca Blue.

IMHO there is much to be gained by swapping valves in the Croft. Glenn builds his amps around readily available current production valves and I am in no doubt that replacing these with NOS versions will bring about definite sonic improvements. You can "tune" your amp to the sound you want to a large extent by your choice of valves. In my 25R preamp I finally settled on a NOS Brimar 6060 for the phono stage (even better than my NOS Telefunken ECC801s) and a quad of NOS Philips Miniwatt 12AX7's. The Series 4s power amp allows huge choice of valves. Sorry, I digress but hope this is of some help.

Steve

[kininigin]

Hi Darren,

I have had this conversation with Glenn as I own a couple of his excellent creations. The following is his response to my question - not marked confidential etc so I'm sure (hope) :( he won't mind.

"I can't recommend any MC stages as I don't like the principle, results or pricing of MC's.
The best operating principle for a cartridge is Moving Iron - this results in the lowest possible mass attached to the cantilever and places the heavy coils and magnets in the body where they cause no problems. The best exponent of this is the Decca which uses the cantilever itself as the moving iron part - all they need is to be assembled properly with a decent tip and to be used in a suitable arm.
I would get a genuine Decca Blue and send it off to the "Garrott brothers" in Australia.
Best regards,
Glenn."

Well, I took him at his word and obtained a fine Decca Blue which was subsequently overhauled by Presence Audio and is delivering stunning results.

I have used various Croft preamps over the last few years all with MM inputs and so have not used a MC since I got rid of my LP12/Ittok/Troika

I don't think there are any MM's that are specific matches for the Croft MM phono stage I have used Astatic MF-100, Reson Reca, AT 150 mlx, Nagaoka MP11 Boron, Music Maker III and latterly the Decca Blue.

IMHO there is much to be gained by swapping valves in the Croft. Glenn builds his amps around readily available current production valves and I am in no doubt that replacing these with NOS versions will bring about definite sonic improvements. You can "tune" your amp to the sound you want to a large extent by your choice of valves. In my 25R preamp I finally settled on a NOS Brimar 6060 for the phono stage (even better than my NOS Telefunken ECC801s) and a quad of NOS Philips Miniwatt 12AX7's. The Series 4s power amp allows huge choice of valves. Sorry, I digress but hope this is of some help.

Steve

hi steve,

That perfectly explains to me why he doesn't like mc's and who am i to argue with the man.

I've never heard of moving iron carts before so will look into them and see what's out there.

Im using a nag mp 110 atm and it's ok and im enjoying it but i think it's holding the croft back somewhat.

I don't want to go the sut route and would like to keep to glen's 'philosophy' as much as possible.

As for valves i know next to nothing about them and what to look for could you point me in the right direction?

[worrasf]

As for valves i know next to nothing about them and what to look for could you point me in the right direction?

Pleasure,

Looking at the 25micro specs your amp uses 3 ECC83 valves (my 25R has 4 ECC83 and 1 ECC81 by comparison). I expect if you still have the original valves supplied by Glenn they will be JJ ECC83 or JJ ECC803s or Sovtek ECC83 which are new production valves.

There is a wealth of info on the web but a good place to start is http://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83.htm
http://www.watfordvalves.com/

ECC83 is the european terminology - in the US exactly the same valve is known as 12AX7. You will see from the above links that there are also many subtle variations on the above which are also compatible.

As a general rule valves produced in the 1950's - 70's will sound much "better" than modern valves. Ideally you want to get new and never used valves known as New Old Stock (NOS) but even previously used valves from a reputable dealer and fully tested can be fine. I have read some wouldn't touch none new valves because of risk of failure etc - I have never had a duff old valve.

They all sound different and it depends on what "sound" you prefer as to which ones you go for although be prepared to experiment.

Mullard and Brimar sound full and warm
Telefunkens TESLA (original not new production) very dynamic detailed highs lighter bass
Amperex/Phillips superb midband and IMHO in my croft the best of all worlds.

If you buy 3 then try and get a matched set.

IMHO avoid JJ Tesla, Electro Harmonix and new release of anything such as Tesla and TungSol (in contrast original TESLA and TungSol from the 60's are brilliant).

I have deliberately been opinionated here (not the usual line on AoS) as I have spent hours and much dollar getting to where I am confident in recommendations but as always it depends on musical taste/preference.

Ebay is a great place for valves - I have bought dozens and never had a duff purchase. I did buy a valve tester to be sure but all valves I bought from Ebay tested good.

Watford Valves are a good reliable source of new valves including NOS items.

One of the variants to the 12ax7/ecc83 is the 5751 - this has a lower gain than the stock 12ax7/ecc83 which can "tame" a slightly bright high end. The JAN GE 5751 is superb in this respect. JAN (Joint Army Navy) is a military spec tube so very robust. Having a lower gain it is quiet with low microphonics and is becoming very popular for audio use.

I just happen to have 4 NOS of these and you are very welcome to try them out if you want to.

Hope this helps, happy to look at any potential purchases if you send me the link.

Be aware, once you start tube rolling you are on the road to madness:eek:

Steve

[MartinT]

I have a rare Croft SIP preamp with a fixed MC stage. He must have forgotten that one ;)

[kininigin]

Pleasure,

Looking at the 25micro specs your amp uses 3 ECC83 valves (my 25R has 4 ECC83 and 1 ECC81 by comparison). I expect if you still have the original valves supplied by Glenn they will be JJ ECC83 or JJ ECC803s or Sovtek ECC83 which are new production valves.

There is a wealth of info on the web but a good place to start is http://www.audiotubes.com/12ax7.htm
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83.htm
http://www.watfordvalves.com/

ECC83 is the european terminology - in the US exactly the same valve is known as 12AX7. You will see from the above links that there are also many subtle variations on the above which are also compatible.

As a general rule valves produced in the 1950's - 70's will sound much "better" than modern valves. Ideally you want to get new and never used valves known as New Old Stock (NOS) but even previously used valves from a reputable dealer and fully tested can be fine. I have read some wouldn't touch none new valves because of risk of failure etc - I have never had a duff old valve.

They all sound different and it depends on what "sound" you prefer as to which ones you go for although be prepared to experiment.

Mullard and Brimar sound full and warm
Telefunkens TESLA (original not new production) very dynamic detailed highs lighter bass
Amperex/Phillips superb midband and IMHO in my croft the best of all worlds.

If you buy 3 then try and get a matched set.

IMHO avoid JJ Tesla, Electro Harmonix and new release of anything such as Tesla and TungSol (in contrast original TESLA and TungSol from the 60's are brilliant).

I have deliberately been opinionated here (not the usual line on AoS) as I have spent hours and much dollar getting to where I am confident in recommendations but as always it depends on musical taste/preference.

Ebay is a great place for valves - I have bought dozens and never had a duff purchase. I did buy a valve tester to be sure but all valves I bought from Ebay tested good.

Watford Valves are a good reliable source of new valves including NOS items.

One of the variants to the 12ax7/ecc83 is the 5751 - this has a lower gain than the stock 12ax7/ecc83 which can "tame" a slightly bright high end. The JAN GE 5751 is superb in this respect. JAN (Joint Army Navy) is a military spec tube so very robust. Having a lower gain it is quiet with low microphonics and is becoming very popular for audio use.

I just happen to have 4 NOS of these and you are very welcome to try them out if you want to.

Hope this helps, happy to look at any potential purchases if you send me the link.

Be aware, once you start tube rolling you are on the road to madness:eek:

Steve

wow,cheers for the info steve,looks like i've got some reading to do.

I would love to try the JAN GE 5751 to see if this is a route i want to go down.

As you've said my pre uses 3 valves 2 for the phone and 1 for the line.I take it the phono are for left and right channel and the line uses one valve for both channels? If that's the case,what type would i need for the line stage?

Just been looking at a few decca's there a bit out my current price range (why do i have to have more than 1 expensive hobby :rolleyes:) atm but look interesting maybe some poker wins will get me in the right direction :eyebrows:

How about these valves http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260760347346&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT would they be worth considering and how much should you pay for them?

[worrasf]

I would use the same valve type for line and phono.

If you PM me your address etc I'll send you 3 JAN GE 5751's on appro

Steve

[worrasf]

Sorry, didn't read to the bottom of your post - the TFK's look OK - I'd suggest £60 pair max.

Give the 5751's a listen before punting for the TFK's - I think you'll be very pleased with the difference over the stock valves in your Pre.

Steve

[kininigin]

pm sent :)

[hifi_dave]

I have a rare Croft SIP preamp with a fixed MC stage. He must have forgotten that one ;)

It's a long and involved story which I don't feel qualified to tell but basically, for the ten years previous to early last year when the new amps appeared, Glenn didn't produce all of the products under his name. A lot of the gear was produced without his say so or even knowledge and that includes MC phono stages.

Glenn's MM phono stages are legendary and when you hear a well set up London/Decca through one, you have to agree that MC's are, perhaps, not the best way of playing your vinyl.

[DSJR]

I don't mean to attract the "Wrexham Police" :D but my recent experiences with both the Decca Gold Microscanner I had repaired in recent years and also a good original Shure V15IV in the Lab 80mk2 (yes, it works well) shows me that GOOD magnetic types can "do" 3-D and bass *if it's there in the original recording and vinyl cut.* The turntable is all, followed by the arm - but you guys know that already don't you? ;)

DECENT moving coil types cost money (the DL110 isn't really much better than a good MM, just different if truth be told) and you then have the added expense of a decent step up which can again add hundreds of pounds of a good one is to be got. Forget lavish confections like the more expensive Koetsu's, as you're buying into the name and the cachet produced, rather than a better sound per se..... Also, there is the tendency, expressed by Glenn, to take a basic design at x price, select a few and charge 2x, select a few more and charge 4x etc. etc. All good business practice of fleecing well off audiophools. Also, Roy Gandy of Rega once suggested that the maximum a moving coil cartridge should sell for is a very few hundred quid, unless it has a fancy gemstone body as some did and do, yet I notice the Apheta costs nigh-on a grand - hmmmmmmm!

You may not agree with Glenn's point of view, but one must agree that his opinion works in a huge number of cases ;)

[MartinT]

The SIP (Stereo Integrated Preamp) is a complete preamp, not just phono stage, and dates back to about 1986 or so. I bought it from Audio T when they were having problems with Glenn and I'm fairly sure it came from him and not anyone else. It's full width, in brown casework, discretely built and sounds superb. I know it's rare because I've never heard of another one! It's sitting unloved in my garage and I need to find a home for it. I bought it with a Series 4S which has a fault in one channel.

[worrasf]

Glenn's MM phono stages are legendary and when you hear a well set up London/Decca through one, you have to agree that MC's are, perhaps, not the best way of playing your vinyl.

My system is living proof of the truth of this statement :trust:

Steve

[hifi_dave]

The SIP (Stereo Integrated Preamp) is a complete preamp, not just phono stage, and dates back to about 1986 or so. I bought it from Audio T when they were having problems with Glenn and I'm fairly sure it came from him and not anyone else. It's full width, in brown casework, discretely built and sounds superb. I know it's rare because I've never heard of another one! It's sitting unloved in my garage and I need to find a home for it. I bought it with a Series 4S which has a fault in one channel.

Very early Croft pre-amps were in cream or cream/brown cases. Pretty soon they came in black from, say, 1983 onwards. The model names were Micro, Super Micro, Super Micro A etc but I never saw a SIP.

I have only ever dealt with Glenn and still do. Sometime in the mid 80's his products (more accurately his name) were touted by someone else and it is these products which were numerous and varied. Glenn had little to do with these products but will service and support them if required.

[DSJR]

Dave, do you mean from the early nineties onwards? Both the SMA4PP's I've owned date from 1990 or so, but I remember a customer bringing in a cream/brown pair (pre plus Series 4) a few years earlier that had been bought from your good self. The little Micro pre that Mark I owned/owns still was given an excellent review (technical as well as sonic) in a 'Choice amp book and this one had a stereo volume control from memory and just three inputs in a cream and blue "RS" project case. When I first met you in 1988 or so, the black cases had only recently been introduced from memory.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I was going to mention the blue RS cases, but I thought I must have been imagining it.

[DSJR]

Oh no, they existed alright and were made the same way inside as the current ones. I remember from another thread somewhere that Glenn did one up for a poster, mainly the phono stage ouput impedance mod and an uprated valve power supply similar to mine, and the work was beautifully done and looked as good as new :)

[Marco]

I don't mean to attract the "Wrexham Police" but my recent experiences with both the Decca Gold Microscanner I had repaired in recent years and also a good original Shure V15IV in the Lab 80mk2 (yes, it works well) shows me that GOOD magnetic types can "do" 3-D and bass *if it's there in the original recording and vinyl cut.*

Lol - I don't have any problem with that statement, as in some ways it reflects my own experiences, especially with the M3D and G800 - both MMs :)

However, as usual, let's not get bogged down with absolutes....

I too own a (very good) Croft preamp, with in-built valve MM phono stage, and I've heard MMs, MCs (via SUTs and head amps), and yes, moving-irons (Deccas), through it, and as undoubtedly superb as Deccas are, I still prefer my SPU, through its matching A23 SUT.

It just has a magical and effortless way with music, that so far no other cartridge I've heard can emulate, so yes Deccas are great, but they're not the only way to analogue audio nirvana, with or without a Croft preamp or phono stage ;)

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Oh no, they existed alright and were made the same way inside as the current ones.
With an overhanging top cover?

[kininigin]

just been reading up on these decca's and they sound like they could be what im looking for after being suitably worked on.Not going to happen this year,but would love to hear one some time.Do dealers demo carts nowadays?

[worrasf]

Do dealers demo carts nowadays?
Suggest you have a chat to Brian at Presence Audio (http://www.presenceaudio.com/) - very helpful and professional.
Steve

[kininigin]

Suggest you have a chat to Brian at Presence Audio (http://www.presenceaudio.com/) - very helpful and professional.
Steve

cheers steve,just the ticket.

[hifi_dave]

just been reading up on these decca's and they sound like they could be what im looking for after being suitably worked on.Not going to happen this year,but would love to hear one some time.Do dealers demo carts nowadays?

I doubt any dealer would have a Decca on demonstration as they ceased manufacture 30 or more years ago but I do know of a dealer with London cartridges on dem...:rolleyes:

[kininigin]

I doubt any dealer would have a Decca on demonstration as they ceased manufacture 30 or more years ago but I do know of a dealer with London cartridges on dem...:rolleyes:

i'll bear this mystery dealer in mind when the time comes to have a listen ;)

[DSJR]

Stop it you two :lolsign:

To me, they're DECCA'S first and London Decca's second. They need careful treatment and setup, but with a suitable phono stage, they are superb and should be reliable these days - at least old ones can still be fully rebuilt, and not for stupid money either ;)

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
i also have to admit that i have never understood the atraction for moving coil carts over the best of moving magnet or moving iron.
A...

[Marco]

With good (low-output) ones, matey, you get an 'airier', sweeter sound with better resolution and superior high-frequency extension. However, so much depends on having a phono stage and system with the required transparency to showcase the differences effectively :)

You've not heard my SPU yet, but when you do, you should 'get' where I'm coming from ;)

Having said that, cartridge choice, as with anything else, is down to personal taste and a simply a matter of choosing your compromises. Ultimately, it's all a trade-off. There's no such thing as a universally 'best' cartridge, or a 'best' anything, for every application.

Marco.

[Reid Malenfant]

I know very little about valves, but from what i gather it's incredibly difficult to design a valve MC pre amp simply because the noise floor is too high. It's not so hard with a MM stage as the output is significantly higher, no doubt Glen feels that if you want to go the MC route that you'd be better off using a SUT into his MM gain stage :)

Other than that i have little to offer. Maybe what i have typed above has been disproved, if so i guess i'm all ears :eyebrows:

[Marco]

no doubt Glen feels that if you want to go the MC route that you'd be better off using a SUT into his MM gain stage...


Spot on, Mark! Which is exacty what I do. In my experience (and also that of a few others here), it's the best way to amplify the signal from a low-output MC cartridge.

I'm not a big fan of active MC stages, as most (short of the very expensive ones) tend to do more harm to the signal than good.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

With good (low-output) ones, matey,
you get an 'airier', sweeter sound with better resolution and superior high-frequency extension. However, so much depends on having a phono stage and system with the required transparency to showcase the differences effectively :)

You've not heard my SPU yet, but when you do, you should 'get' where I'm coming from ;)

Having said that, cartridge choice, as with anything else, is down to personal taste and a simply a matter of choosing your compromises. Ultimately, it's all a trade-off. There's no such thing as a universally 'best' cartridge, or a 'best' anything, for every application.

Marco.
hi marco,
i understand what your getting at and i have heard moving coil carts costing well into the thousands, What i was trying to get my head around is the ultimate acceptance of Superiority by many of one technology over the other from the two main types ie; Moving coil, Moving magnet without first considering the engineering behind both [bear with me] A moving coil cart consists of a fixed cantiliver with the coils wound onto it, This in itself adds mass to the part of the cart that needs to be as light as posible to track all frequencies acurately, especialy high frequencies, On the other hand, a modern moving magnet cart can take advantage of modern magnets and materials and can utilise these technologies to make the cantilever and assembly as light, rigid and agile as posible therefore in theory optimising maximum performance at all frequencies due to superior tracking ability.
Which takes me back to my original point, it has been shown that it is posible and has been for a long time now to produce extreemley high performing moving magnet carts that not only have superior tracking ability due to their very nature, but also have healthy signal voltages that ensure signal to noise ratio's are kept within acceptable limits.
that was the point i was trying to make, it will undoubtably be down to personal choice at the end of the day and quite rightly so, but we must not get blinkered into thinking that one technology has ultimate superiority over the other, especialy without first looking at the facts of both designs.:)
Anthony,TD.

[Marco]

Hi Anthony,

Yup - sorry for misunderstanding you before.

However, my earlier observation still stands for what I hear with the best MCs, which I don't hear as much with the best MMs or moving irons, namely that with the former:


you get an 'airier', sweeter sound with better resolution and superior high-frequency extension.


...which I definitely don't hear to the same extent with the best MMs or moving irons. And such things are crucially important to my enjoyment and appreciation of music on vinyl.

Therefore, the theory is great as to why the best MMs or moving irons should be superior to MCs (if in fact we all agreed on what 'superior' was), but sadly to my ears, in practice, they aren't - certainly in the areas that matter most to me, otherwise I wouldn't be using an MC as my main cartridge of choice.... ;)

Don't get me wrong though, I still love some MMs (I currently own four of them. I'm due to add another vintage one soon to my collection, so watch this space!) and Deccas are amongst my favourite cartridges of all time, but none, to my ears, reproduce the realism and musical addictiveness of my SPU :)

One thing I've found which helps MCs immensely in reproducing the speed and 'attack' of the best MMs or moving irons, is having a very short cantilever, which is a key feature of the SPU. The (virtual) lack of one is a significant reason why Deccas, for example, sound they way they do.

But of course, ultimately, all cartridge designs are a trade-off or compromise in some way or another.

Marco.

[kininigin]

The impression you seem to get,if like me you are fairly new to turntables (in a hi fi sense at least) is that mm's are the way to go if your on a budget but mc's is where it's really at.Obviously it's not as black and white as that though.

Im of to listen to some music after recieving some valves (JAN GE 5751) from worrasf (steve).

Initial impressions are,wow i've been missing out :)

[anthonyTD]

hi marco,
yep fine,:) my brief description of both technologies does not take into acount other key elements that will undoubtably add up to reasons one sounds more enjoyable than the other ie; Damping abilities and control of what mass there is in both technologies, Which will ultimately be key in controling overshoot etc that can lead to listening fatigue, therefore mass is not always a bad thing etc, etc.
Ultimately i think it safe to say [and i hope you agree] that within individual circumstances it is posible to get either technology to work almost on equal terms as far as sonics are concerned.
Anthony,TD...

[Marco]

Yup, totally agree! :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

On the other hand, a modern moving magnet cart can take advantage of modern magnets and materials and can utilise these technologies to make the cantilever and assembly as light, rigid and agile as posible therefore in theory optimising maximum performance at all frequencies due to superior tracking ability.

The problem with this statement, Anthony, is that it's a case of where technology doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sure you've heard hundreds of times how solid state amplifiers 'must' be better because the technology allows greater integrity of the original signal with lower distortion so valves can never sound as good. Right? Well, we all know better and valves are as relevant today as any technology and capable of making superb sounds.

It's the same with moving coil cartridges. The technology shouldn't be as good so they shouldn't sound as good, yet the ears tell us something different. There is a sense of structure and dimensionality that I've never heard even from the best moving magnet/moving iron designs and a portrayal of detail across the spectrum that makes the music come out of the speakers and into the space between and around them. It's a sense of reality and vividness that is infectious. I would not readily go back to MM designs now, at any price level.

[anthonyTD]

The problem with this statement, Anthony, is that it's a case of where technology doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sure you've heard hundreds of times how solid state amplifiers 'must' be better because the technology allows greater integrity of the original signal with lower distortion so valves can never sound as good. Right? Well, we all know better and valves are as relevant today as any technology and capable of making superb sounds.

It's the same with moving coil cartridges. The technology shouldn't be as good so they shouldn't sound as good, yet the ears tell us something different. There is a sense of structure and dimensionality that I've never heard even from the best moving magnet/moving iron designs and a portrayal of detail across the spectrum that makes the music come out of the speakers and into the space between and around them. It's a sense of reality and vividness that is infectious. I would not readily go back to MM designs now, at any price level.

:)