View Full Version : Why a lack of empathy is the root of all evil
Neil McCauley
05-04-2011, 17:36
"From casual violence to genocide, acts of cruelty can be traced back to how the perpetrator identifies with other people, argues psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen. Is he right?"
http://ind.pn/eaINM6
I am not sure if the lack of empathy is the root of all evil; to much a sweeping statement. But I like Rogers view on Empathy as a way of helping us to have a sense of understanding to walk in someones elses shoes
Neil McCauley
05-04-2011, 18:24
I hoped you'd reply John. I really did 'cos in my experience you're more on the 'case' re this than many I've met. Incidentally you are the only AoS member I've met in the flesh. And no, I'm not convinced either. I guess he made the opening statement as a catalyst for debate. Stay sane my friend.
Like Rogers I do believe empathy can usually be developed but a bit like playing a instrument, some will find this more easy than others (some will even find this like learning a alien langauge)
If you ever get the chance read A Way of Being by Carl Rogers
Reid Malenfant
05-04-2011, 18:38
I think some of the comments left by other people are very interesting indeed :) I tend to agree that "nice" or if you like people that empathise don't tend to make it to the top of industry management or politics. It's people that are willing to trample on others that will get to the top, as nice people don't tend to crap on others so they get left behind.
I really think this shows that anyone who desires a career in politics should automatically be disqualified from the job :cool:
I would argue that apathy is a more likely root.
Once you demonize a person or group you've done 90% of the job,after that you can do anything you like with them an no one will do a thing about it.
Because people in large numbers are nothing more than sheep,and lacking any real sense of there own.
Vinyleyes
06-04-2011, 06:06
"From casual violence to genocide, acts of cruelty can be traced back to how the perpetrator identifies with other people, argues psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen. Is he right?"
http://ind.pn/eaINM6
Not having read the book it is not clear if the above comment in quotes is actually attributable to SBC .. or the writer of the article. At any rate, for me anyway, the question posed appears to be how much does a lack of empathy contribute to a given individuals propensity to enact violence on others.
The crux of this point for me would be whether or not an individual who commits atrocities to others can actually have empathy .. thus being able to imagine how much pain he is causing .. but still do them as a means to his own ends ... or ... would the fact that he did have empathy deter him from such actions. That question does not seem to be satisfactorily adressed from what I read in the link.
Personally I feel that an individuals upbringing, environment and educational and religious conditioning with perhaps some genealogy thrown in are the contributing factors here. Sure the person growing up in these conditions may well display a profound lack of empathy but if anyone is really interested in stopping children growing up with such a lack of feeling .. or even hate ... Then our governments and religious institutions should be preaching tolerance and acceptance of all colours and creeds on our planet rather than conditioning them to hate.
This conditioning from birth is where the suicide bombers come from ... they simply know no other truth ...
What is more .. Our governments and religions know this .. but they continue to allow nations to grow up divided ... ... but as Goraman suggests .. apathy plays a part here .. not many people can be bothered to do basic research .. and observe this simple fact in action all over the world.
A psyschologist discussing if lack of empathy contributes to genocide .. of course it does, an idiot can see that ... but he would be doing far better service if he wrote a book on the pyschology of the people who create the conditions for such non empathic people to emerge from.
If you are interested in further reading on this .. Recent scientific studies would seem to support my views ... and also suggest that breaking down people's ability to develop empathy is a major contributor to the ongoing instabilty and conflict in the world today ..
"According to recent scientific research, human brains are wired for empathy. When humans, chimpanzees, and some other mammalian life watch another animal’s express emotion, the brains of both creatures exhibit the same neurological activity. This is called “neuron mirroring,” and it indicates that humans evolved to feel empathy for other creatures. It is for this reason that author Jeremy Rifkin states we are actually “softwired” not for aggression, violence, self-interest, utilitarianism, but for sociability, attachment, affection, companionship, and belonging – the empathic drive. He suggests that this drive “when repressed by our parents, education, business, and government” leads to the narcissism, materialism, violence, and aggression that we all know too well. [Entry continued below.]
http://progressivebuddhism.blogspot.com/2010/07/empathic-society.html
and
http://thinman.com/john_bessa/empathy/
There is much more out there on Google about empathy .. and how central it is to a human's abilty to function with love and compassion in the world today. No wonder it is not encouraged .. ;)
:cool:
I really think this shows that anyone who desires a career in politics should automatically be disqualified from the job :cool:
I've said the same on many occasions and really do believe it. MPs show little empathy for their constituents for the very reason that they have trampled over others to attain that position.
After giving it careful thought,the root of all evil is in fact (EVIL)
Evil is the complete absents of Holy Spirit, just as the absents of light brings complete darkness.
Ever meet someone so dark inside that just one look in there eyes made the hair stand up on your neck? I have had the displeasure, This person later stabbed some one to death.
When you meet some one completely evil, you really don't need to look for any reason (they just are who and what they are.)
And they just do Evil things.
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 09:47
When you meet some one completely evil, you really don't need to look for any reason (they just are who and what they are.)
Indeed. But not always. The child murderer shown in the link below was a customer of mine at Subjective Audio. He was convicted of 4 murders. Another customer of mine in the Police force at that time told me that it was likely that an additional 19, yes nineteen other unsolved child murders were quite possibly because of him but that RB was not (at that time) interested in cooperating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Black_%28serial_killer%29
The point is this. He was murdering during a period that I was supplying him hi-fi. There was nothing and I do mean nothing via his external appearance, body language, verbal mannerisms that would have caused me any concern. So disturbed by this was I that I discussed this with an expert in that field. He told me that RB's category of evil (too long to go into here) was such that even specialists would find it hard to spot. For 'civilians' like you and me, probably impossible!
I formed many conclusions about this. One, and it is still a belief I hold today, is that the most evil of evil hides behind an almost impenetrable and certainly passive mask. And before anyone asks, he purchased among other items, a Michaelson/Austin TVA-1 export. He liked classical music too.
That's deeply unnerving, Howard. We must all have come across paedophiles/potential murderers in our dealings with people over time and never been aware of it.
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 11:08
Well yes indeed. Seeing as you brought this up, I’ll offer you a further revelation if I may. I mentioned earlier a senior police officer (who was I should add unconnected with the RB case). There were other Police officers I knew as customers too. So perplexed was I by my inability to see, even in retrospect anything odd about RB, and even if I did then what would I have done, that I discussed this with them too.
One of the outcomes was, certainly back in the late 1980s, that those involved in the Vice squad were convinced that one in 20 of the entire UK population were practicing or at least latent pedophiles. The statement was qualified – to a degree – by opining that this disturbing percentage spanned every degree from outright murder i.e. RB – through to those interested kiddy porn but fortunately not acting on any impulse.
At that point Subjective Audio had in excess of 4,200 customers and prospects. My social circle was large, and although pruned of late by untimely deaths …… well I guess you can do the arithmetic. Add in close friends and family. AoS members. Linn users. Rolex owners. Aston Martin drivers. The list is endless.
Its a frightening thought Howard
I often wonder what working in this field of prevention would do to your world view.
I also wonder what is truly meant by humanity
I tend to take an exisential stance myself(but I know a behaviourist would say its our condictioning) in that we are capable of good and evil
Reid Malenfant
07-04-2011, 12:37
One of the outcomes was, certainly back in the late 1980s, that those involved in the Vice squad were convinced that one in 20 of the entire UK population were practicing or at least latent pedophiles.
They were also convinced that the Yorkshire Ripper was a Geordie :rolleyes:
Really Howard, you’ve got to do better :lolsign:
Do you really expect anyone to take this sort of emotive unsubstantiated reporting of conversations with persons unknown seriously?
Let’s take this for a start.
“I’ll offer you a further revelation if I may. I mentioned earlier a senior police officer (who was I should add unconnected with the RB case).”
And this;
“that those involved in the Vice squad were convinced that one in 20 of the entire UK population were practicing or at least latent pedophiles”
Without knowing who these police officer are and their connection with the case, the vice squad and their sources for such statistics your reporting of such a conversation is about as much as a revelation as a quick browse of the Daily Star.
To then suggest from such conversations that 1 in 20 of us are involved in the abuse of children is at best completely inaccurate and at worst gutter press rabble rousing.
I think Marco should open a special column for you and title it “Tales from the nursing home”.
Get your medication sorted out Howard, please :rolleyes:
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 13:05
Get your medication sorted out Howard, please :rolleyes:
I have. Or rather the NHS have. The chemotherapy is keeping me alive just long enough to, err .... I forget. Oh yes, I remember. To be an audience for people like you! It is highly unlikely I'll ever get to a nursing home! Perhaps one day you'll be fortunate to share a similar experience? You might find it enlightening - if you are capable of that. I certainly have. Happy now?
PS: Funnily enough, once again to note that some of the truly ignorant on AoS hide behind a pseudonym Mr. Welder.
Sorry to hear about the chemo, Howard. I have first-hand experience and know how unpleasant it can be. However, some of us have come through the other side to live fairly normal lives again. This is an area that has improved dramatically in just the last ten years.
"Happy Now"
Not really Howard, not big on empathy or emotive appeals, probably one the “evil” social components.
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 13:15
Sorry to hear about the chemo, Howard. I have first-hand experience and know how unpleasant it can be. However, some of us have come through the other side to live fairly normal lives again. This is an area that has improved dramatically in just the last ten years.
True. Very true. No cure for dealing with Mr. Welder-type people though. Ho hum. Do you think he ever steps out from behind anonymity?
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 13:19
"Happy Now"
Not really Howard, not big on empathy or emotive appeals, probably one the “evil” social components.
Clearly not. Maybe as you mature a bit eh? There's always time left to embrace the 'Big C' you know? Or perhaps you don't?
There's an honesty to Cancer Mr. Welder. It doesn't hide behind a pseudonym - unlike your good self.
I won’t be responding to your bile or anything else by you on the forum. I've better things to do. You though clearly haven’t. Such a pity.
Call me John, Howard, if it helps to make you feel like you know anything about me.
Get your medication sorted out Howard, please :rolleyes:
Come on, John, I have no problem with taking a different point of view and we encourage active discussion here but keep the personal digs out of it, please.
I had no idea that Howard was taking any form of medication Martin, so if under the circumstances what was meant to be a lighthearted comment had caused personal offence then Howard has my sincere apologies.
However, this is the internet and perhaps personal tribulations that we all go through at one time or another are best kept that way, personal.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2011, 17:02
I actually find it very hard to understand the concept of 'pure evil' in the sense that someone can be intrinsically and incontrovertibly evil.
Ill, or influenced, or consumed by greed, passion or a desire for power, or without knowledge or understanding of consequences, yes.
But 'pure evil'?
Beechwoods
07-04-2011, 17:12
I think if you take the moral constraints - responsibility and accountability - we all take for granted and remove them, plenty of people would do things we would term evil. It has happened often in history when normal people have done evil things (ie. cruel, inhumane) things in an environment where that was allowed.
Conformity to social norms is a check on people's tendency to be evil, but it's also an enabler when those social norms break down.
Not everyone will take the opportunity to 'do evil' but some will, and given those responsible for war crimes and the way many were able to assimilate back into 'normal society' afterwards, it's not as simple as being born that way.
One of the outcomes was, certainly back in the late 1980s, that those involved in the Vice squad were convinced that one in 20 of the entire UK population were practicing or at least latent pedophiles
I don't want to get too embroiled in this one, as I like all the people in this thread (even though I have never met any of you!), but I am struggling to be convinced of the validity of this statement Howard. Is this something someone said to you directly or from a published article - just interested as to where it came from? :scratch:
Must open a say it with music thread.
Anyway, my comment.
BvXhaMYvRME
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 17:36
I don't want to get too embroiled in this one, as I like all the people in this thread (even though I have never met any of you!), but I am struggling to be convinced of the validity of this statement Howard. Is this something someone said to you directly or from a published article - just interested as to where it came from? :scratch:
Told to me face to face in 1987 by a retired UK Vice Squad officer. My guess is that if anyone had a better than chance ability to estimate the percentage then it would be him. Seems logical doesn't it?
Look at the chattering classes' scepticism about institutional child abuse by the Irish Catholic church and then compare that with the eventually exposed extent of it. Nuff said I guess.
Meanwhile as this has taken an unexpected turn, and one that doesn't interest me, this is my final post on this thread.
The Grand Wazoo
07-04-2011, 17:39
Did you miss posts 24 & 25 Howard?
Some of us are interested in discussing the subject.
Neil McCauley
07-04-2011, 17:52
Did you miss posts 24 & 25 Howard?
Some of us are interested in discussing the subject.
Nope. Didn't miss them. But currently I don't feel I've got anything worthwhile to contribute on that subject. If so, I might start another thread - but don't hold your breath! In the interim though, interested people might find the following books instructive:
http://amzn.to/hGgRnK
http://amzn.to/gjoCMx
http://amzn.to/fRRkJ1
Told to me face to face in 1987 by a retired UK Vice Squad officer. My guess is that if anyone had a better than chance ability to estimate the percentage then it would be him. Seems logical doesn't it?
Thanks for the reply Howard and yes as you say it seems logical to assume he was qualified to hold such a belief or make such comments, but I personally disagree with what he told you.
EDIT: An interesting and thought provoking thread however Howard (as always :)), shame it went a little off course.
Vinyleyes
08-04-2011, 04:03
Nope. Didn't miss them. But currently I don't feel I've got anything worthwhile to contribute on that subject. If so, I might start another thread - but don't hold your breath! In the interim though, interested people might find the following books instructive:
http://amzn.to/hGgRnK
http://amzn.to/gjoCMx
http://amzn.to/fRRkJ1
The first book Howard points us to ...
"The 20th century saw the largest number of systematic slaughters of human beings in any century in history. Chronicling the horrific events of last century, this work goes beyond historic details to examine the psychological means that leaders use to convince individuals to commit horrific actions in the name of a political or military cause. Massacres in Nanking, Rwanda, EI Salvador, Vietnam and other countries are reviewed in chilling detail. But the core issue is what psychological forces are behind large scale killing, and how psychology can be used to indoctrinate normal people with a 'Groupthink' that moves individuals to commit mass murder brutally and without regret, even when the victims are innocent children. The author shows us how individuals are convinced to commit such sadistic acts, often preceded by torture, after being indoctrinated with beliefs that the target victims are unjust, inhuman, or like a virus that must be destroyed or it will destroy society."
It is all well and good discussing if people are evil .. or just sick .. or from deprived and unloved childhoods .. Psychologists can write a million books on this subject .. The fact we should be adressing .. and coming to terms with .. Is that many governments in this world right now actively pursue indoctrination programs designed to create this very lack of empathy in people that makes it easier for them to commit such crimes...
Our governments and religious institutions should be preaching tolerance and acceptance of all colours and creeds on our planet rather than conditioning them to hate.
A quote I attached in an earlier post ...
"According to recent scientific research, human brains are wired for empathy. When humans, chimpanzees, and some other mammalian life watch another animal’s express emotion, the brains of both creatures exhibit the same neurological activity. This is called “neuron mirroring,” and it indicates that humans evolved to feel empathy for other creatures. It is for this reason that author Jeremy Rifkin states we are actually “softwired” not for aggression, violence, self-interest, utilitarianism, but for sociability, attachment, affection, companionship, and belonging – the empathic drive. He suggests that this drive “when repressed by our parents, education, business, and government” leads to the narcissism, materialism, violence, and aggression that we all know too well. [Entry continued below.]
It is a fact that this is happening .. and THIS is the main reason we have so many crazies out there .. there is no point just simply labelling them "Evil" .. that is a cop out used by religion and government .. as if it were something they are completely powerless to prevent ... when in fact they create environments where it can flourish .. and even be encouraged !
:cool:
religious institutions should be preaching tolerance and acceptance of all colours and creeds on our planet
Since when did any religion practice that?
I think one of the things that has changed is how easy it is to get hold of weapons and this allows for far greater numbers to be killed. I was just reading what happened in Rio yesterday, absolutely horrific. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-13003419
Certainlty a lack of empathy and anything positive around humanity
I think one of the things that has changed is how easy it is to get hold of weapons
Agreed, John, and I wish HM Customs and Excise would work harder on the illegal arms importers and less on whether someone has exceeded their £40 allowance.
I really don't think it has anything to do with arms whatsoever,More over drugs both legal and illegal psychotropic drugs, The rise in these kinds of crimes are very closely linked to anti depressants.There can be manic spikes and complete psychosis side affects in a substantial number of people.
But anti depressants are bigger than big tobacco and FDA approved.
Indeed. But not always. The child murderer shown in the link below was a customer of mine at Subjective Audio. He was convicted of 4 murders. Another customer of mine in the Police force at that time told me that it was likely that an additional 19, yes nineteen other unsolved child murders were quite possibly because of him but that RB was not (at that time) interested in cooperating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Black_%28serial_killer%29
The point is this. He was murdering during a period that I was supplying him hi-fi. There was nothing and I do mean nothing via his external appearance, body language, verbal mannerisms that would have caused me any concern. So disturbed by this was I that I discussed this with an expert in that field. He told me that RB's category of evil (too long to go into here) was such that even specialists would find it hard to spot. For 'civilians' like you and me, probably impossible!
I formed many conclusions about this. One, and it is still a belief I hold today, is that the most evil of evil hides behind an almost impenetrable and certainly passive mask. And before anyone asks, he purchased among other items, a Michaelson/Austin TVA-1 export. He liked classical music too.
I'm not real keen on retelling this childhood experience as it has haunted me my whole life.I will post it but may do it through more than one posting as it is not something I like thinking about.
My parents split up when I was around 10 and my father who adopted me began a relationship with woman bringing her two daughters into my life.
One was just a year younger than me,the other was 4.The older sister and I where often brats for at least a year after they split I had little to no supervision at all.My father worked nights and stayed with girlfriends.
The older daughter and I Ran together and excluded the younger one,even being mean to her and picking on her a lot.
If I could go back and change one thing in my life it would be how I treated that poor little kid.
She often would sing Jesus loves me this I know,and loved going to Sunday school. She was always telling us "I forgive you" when we would be mean to her.
I look back on her short little life and I feel the deepest sorrow a man could feel.And total shame for how I taunted her. Her name was Sabrina.
Her sister and I where playing and arguing or something that upset my Dad and he said "When ever they come to visit you guys become brats,I'm taking them home.
So my Dad took his girlfriend and two daughters home,I was now 10, Athena was 9 and Sabrina only 2 weeks from turning 6 and really looking forward to school.
It seems my Dad and his girl friend locked the girls outside to fool around.
They went to a playground with monkey bars located in the parking lot of the apartments where they lived.
The older sister went off with her friends leaving Sabrina there with other smaller kids.A man pulled up in a white station wagon with an Ice chest full of soda,candy ect.. and asked the kids if they wanted to go for a pick nick.
A lady saw him and yelled from her window to leave those kids alone and he sped off,what she didn't know was Sabrina had already gotten into the car with him.
That night Sabrina never came home,police looked for her 3 days,knocked on every door,They began to notice a weird guy who had been watching them search. The woman who had seen him in the car came home after being gone for a couple of days and told the police what she had seen.
They followed him out to a field and found him sitting naked on a rock pile masturbating.
Under the pile of rocks and dirt they found little Sabrina beaten,cut,stabbed,strangled and sexually assaulted,the coroner said he even raped her after he had killed her.
My father said it was our fault,if we had been good she would still be alive.
As a man with a 2 year old I want to kick my Dad's ass for locking them out and placing the blame on a 9 and 10 year old.
Even if we where the worst kids that ever lived,he was never home enough to notice.
Sadly Sabrina was not his only victim,I was told there was 14 others he admitted too.
There isn't a day that go's by I don't think about her, or wish I could change that day. For years I had horrible nightmares and wake up seeing her laying in that little pink coffin.
Her lay out and funeral was open casket,and seeing her so still and lifeless
where so much life had been.
There is no words to describe what I feel still some 35 years later.
I have a burning hatred for child molesters and child killers they are for me pure Evil.
The sorrow I feel every time I hear of another victim of these soulless devils on the news.
What a terrible experience and story Jeff. Sh!tty world.
Beechwoods
09-04-2011, 06:43
An experience like that, Jeff, could have easily destroyed you, especially at that age, and the way your dad treated you and your sister too. Knowing you from your posts you sound like everything your dad wasn't. Conner is lucky having a dad like you.
Its horriable experience to carry and totally understand that sense of regret. The real person to blame is the person who did such a horrible crime
Totally agree with Nick above post
Vinyleyes
09-04-2011, 09:59
Jeff, that is the most courageous post I have ever seen, anywhere, on any internet forum. I am sure you have had much help and advice on how to deal with what happened .... and not blaming yourself comes top of the list ..... and not letting the hate burn you up is a close second.
Anyway ... If you are ever in Yorkshire you guys are welcome at mine to stay, drink some warm beer :) .... and chill out to good sounds ..
I don't know what to say, Jeff. You've stopped me in my tracks and I shall give a thought for Sabrina this afternoon. There is no justice in this world.
There is no justice in this world.
A sad story indeed and you got that right Martin. I do my bit to try and keep these b******s off the street, so your story is close to my heart.
A very difficult thing to share Jeff and very courageous indeed, but thankyou.
Thanks guys,I don't like to go there,and no in 75 when it happened there was no counciling for kids so dealing with it through the world of a 10 year old living mostly alone was not so easy.The biggest help was at 13 I moved to my Mom and stepfathers home and he made me go to school every day took me to church and helped me with homework ect.. Thats why my son Conner is named after him.He was the one who took time to really raise me.
I had a hard time finding her,seems not everyone made it into the computers data base,
They had to search through old card files but I did get to visit her.
I don't think anyone's been there for awhile looking at her head stone so I cleaned it up and left some flowers.
I got to talk with her for a while,I hope she was able to hear me in some way.
This is a huge cemetery,but now that I know where she is I'll come see her more often.
So sad. I have visited several of the WW1 and WW2 cemetaries in Normandie where many 17 & 18 year olds lost their lives. I am feeling the same now, looking at your photos.
I hope you are at peace with her, Jeff.
Thanks Martin ,I really just needed to see her as an adult and let her know what a great kid she is and let her know I miss her. And that I am sorry for teasing her all the time and excluding her from everything.She shouldn't be forgotten so easily.
She missed her 6th Birthday buy just 2 1/2 months.
Her 5 years of life seems nearly forgotten.
Beautiful flowers Jeff. Well done for tracking down her resting place and thanks for sharing.
Jeff I am really moved by this I think its good to reflect and honour like this
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