Amplifier(power?) for B&W CM1

[Trumpetman]

Hey.

I managed to get some CM1`s cheap but now need an budget priced amplifier to run them. As Im a trumpet student with not to much money :S
Im most likely going to buy a Beresford Caiman dac and maybe i should use it as a pre amp and buy a power amp or is a integrated amp a better choice?

I know the CM1`s have a 84db sensitivity, which I understand is fairly low, and therefore hard to drive or am i wrong?
I have been thinking of a Rotel 1070/2 which i can get fairly cheap 2 hand. would this manage to power the speakers?
I dont really like the denon amplifiers as i think the combination sound to bright for my taste.
Are there any other good combos that will work well?

Tnx in advance
Espen

[Trumpetman]

noone that can help me?

[Ali Tait]

Hi Espen,
Can you DIY a little? If so, you could try some of the more powerful Tripath kits on ebay. These seem in general to have a smooth sound with a valve like mid and top end, which seems to be what you are looking for. Some of these are cheap and sound very good, so they are great value for money, perfect for a cash conscious student.

[Ali Tait]

If you are not sure about DIY, you could try a Hlly T amp 90. I have had one of these and they are very good for the money. Plenty power for your needs too at 90 w/ch.

[Alex_UK]

Hi Espen, sorry no one has come to your assistance. [EDIT:] Ali did whilst I was typing this!

I have no experience of either your speakers or the proposed amp, but B&W are unlikely to produce a mass-market speaker that is too hard to drive I feel, although 84db is a little on the low side. I believe B&W recommend 30-100 watts, so at 130 watts the Rotel will have no problem driving them I suspect, and blowing them up if you really want to crank it up! ;) (In reality unless you really go mad, the extra power over the recommended maximum shouldn't be a problem.) If the price is good on the Rotel then it might be worth giving it a go - you can probably sell it on for minimal loss if you don't like it long term - one of the joys of second-hand equipment.

If you can live without a remote and don't need any analogue inputs, then using the Caiman as a pre-amp would be ideal, and likely sound better than putting a pre-amp between it and amp.

There's an interesting review here (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/bw_cm1.htm) - which suggests they are a very nice set of speakers - enjoy! :)

[greenhomeelectronics]

Cm1's do take a bit of driving, the Rotel has more than enough to do the job. If you are a student I assume you do not live in a large detached house so do you need massive power anyway? The combination you suggest should be enough to at least irritate the neighbours:lol:
Dave.

[Ali Tait]

Having had a look around, it seems the CM 1's minimum impedance is 5.1 ohms, so assuming they are not too reactive a load, they may be easier to drive than the sensitivity figure would suggest.

[Ali Tait]

Found this-

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/bw_cm1/

If you scroll down the page you can see the impedance plot. It would seem they are quite a reactive load after all, but probably no worse than a lot of other commercial speaker designs.

[Macca]

A Linn Lk280 or LK100 will drive them no problem and sound better than the Rotel - (IMHO) - get one on ebay for around £250-£300.

[DSJR]

Power isn't always necessary for high volumes, but for more accurate reproduction of dynamic range.

Trumpets can cut you dead at ten paces (:)) and although the CM1's won't physically go loud enough to do this, a good few Watts of driving won't do them any harm IMO - their only weakness is a "small-box" bass, whereas the midrange is very good from memory. Depending on what's available in Norway and at what cost, that Rotel should be great and will keep its value. A Gatorised Caiman should also have a good line-buffer/volume control to drive it.

Apologies all, I don't know the little "T" type amps personally, but if the power is clean at all levels, then fine. I'm told that they may have audible distortion problems when pushed into inefficient loads though, but this is second hand "advice" to me...

[Ali Tait]

Yes, hence why I recommended the more powerful ones- the Hlly does 90 w/ch. For it's price I think it's a great sounding bit of kit.

[Alex_UK]

Apologies all, I don't know the little "T" type amps personally, but if the power is clean at all levels, then fine. I'm told that they may have audible distortion problems when pushed into inefficient loads though, but this is second hand "advice" to me...

Won't be long before you'll be able to evaluate a Mini-T (and Gatorized Caiman) Dave. :)

Certainly if Espen is looking for a bargain (£60 - meaning more money to spend in the student bar!) then I don't think he would go far wrong, but not if he wants to go really loud. I'd still go for the Rotel if it was me.

[Ali Tait]

Not sure a mini T would be up to driving them Alex.

[Alex_UK]

Where's the :I'LL GET MY COAT: smiley when I need one!

[Ali Tait]

:lol: I might be wrong!

[DSJR]

All part of the fun :lolsign:

[Ali Tait]

Actually, he could buy two and biamp with a Caiman. That might work ok.

[Reid Malenfant]

Where's the :I'LL GET MY COAT: smiley when I need one!
4138

:lolsign:

[Stratmangler]

NAD stuff has plenty of grunt too. :)

[Ali Tait]

Aye, another good choice.

[Trumpetman]

Hei. Thanx for all the answers.

I had actually forgot about this thread, so sorry for the late answer... :)

My room that I use for listening is about 15-16m2 so its not big :) I never play too loud since i dont like the music too loud and have just a 20cm wall to a neighbor`s kids room :S. But I was told to get a powerful amp so that the speakers would open up at even low volumes :)

Have found out that the cd player i run them with now(phillips MC m570 i think) is a class D 100wpc at 6 ohm. And it fails to open unless i play at -28db which most of the time is TOOOOO much for me and my neighbors...

The T amps looked cool, but think that will be something i can try later, as im not to sure about my skills in making that stuff from kits and attaching all that needs to be done :S I have a steady hand and have built for example a rc boat from kit. But dont wanna blow my speaker because of a bad soldered connection or something :S
If I was gonna biamp the T`s should i have one for each speaker or one for tweeter and one for mid/bass? Or maybe just quad amp when we are starting :D:D what other part would i need for the kit to work?

Will most likely try to find a used rotel 1070/72 to run them with and upgrade later, and of course the gatorized Caiman as pre-amp.

[Trumpetman]

I have just read about the XTZ A100 D3 amplifier. At 50wpc class A(8ohm) and 110wpc class AB(8ohm) its fairly good spec`ed for its price tag at sub £1100 new from shop.

Does anyone have any experience with this amp?? How is its sound quality??

Tnx

[Reid Malenfant]

Try searching the forum using XTZ as the search ;)

Results, a good few appear to love it (http://theartofsound.net/forum/search.php?searchid=944383) :)

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Espen welcome to AOS.

Can you pop into the welcome section of the forum and say hello to the community, tell us a bit about yourself, taste in music and system.

Regards D S D L

[audio39]

Regarding your B&W's and an amp that will drive them well, may I suggest a Classe Audio Ten.

There is a very nice synergy between Classe gear and B&W, always has been, the Ten should be fairly close to the price point of the Rotel you mentioned earlier, but will provide a more stable foundation to the music.

Rick.

[Trumpetman]

Sorry. I see now that I wrote wrong price. The XTZ goes for £675 new

[audiosanctum]

£625.00 actually ;) , the price of the amp just keeps getting lower and lower!

[Trumpetman]

Yeah £625 in UK:), but in norway it costs a little less than 6000 norwegian kroner, which converts to about £675 :(

BTW: will do Dalek :)

[audiosanctum]

Sorry about that i didn't notice you were in Norway ;)

[HighFidelityGuy]

In my experience an amps ability to drive speakers is less about it's power rating and more about other aspects of the design. As an example my speakers are 91dB but drop down to around 3 Ohm somewhere in the bass department. So they're fairly efficient but present a fairly difficult load to the amp. They also have multiple drivers and fairly complex crossovers. They are currently run off a pair of 550W monoblocks which do an excellent job of keeping control of the speakers and providing a very dynamic sound. However I recently tried out a 15W per channel valve amp with my speakers and I can honestly say that it provided almost the same level of dynamic impact as my monoblocks. The valve amp actually sounded more punchy. I think the reason is that valve amps drive speakers with higher current, or something like that. :scratch: So perhaps the answer is to look for an amp that is a high current design. I've seen some marketed as such.

Damping factor plays a role in this too. A higher damping factor allows the amp the have a tighter control over the movement of the bass drivers. However I have read that amps with very high damping factor sound less refined. So as with most things I think you need a balance. I noticed Rotel mentioned a couple of times and I think their amps are worth trying as they seem to be very robust but nice sounding. :)

[Reid Malenfant]

The valve amp actually sounded more punchy. I think the reason is that valve amps drive speakers with higher current, or something like that. :scratch:
That'll be the valve amp (which has lower feedback & a lower damping factor) reacting with the upper resonance of the drivers, not the port resonance ;) It'll find it much easier to drive due to a much higher impedance & thus the upper bass output will increase & you get your "punchy bass".


Damping factor plays a role in this too. A higher damping factor allows the amp the have a tighter control over the movement of the bass drivers. However I have read that amps with very high damping factor sound less refined. So as with most things I think you need a balance. I noticed Rotel mentioned a couple of times and I think their amps are worth trying as they seem to be very robust but nice sounding. :)
See above, they often do sound more restricted or less defined due to the collosal amount of feedback employed to lower the inherent distortion in a class B output stage. However if you use a class A amp then far less feedback is needed to get rid of distortion & you still get a high damping factor due to the inherent nature of the output stage & they sound great :eyebrows:

[Butuz]

You can't go wrong with an XTZ amp I have the power amp version and it's bloody excellent. :)

Butuz

[HighFidelityGuy]

That'll be the valve amp (which has lower feedback & a lower damping factor) reacting with the upper resonance of the drivers, not the port resonance ;) It'll find it much easier to drive due to a much higher impedance & thus the upper bass output will increase & you get your "punchy bass".


See above, they often do sound more restricted or less defined due to the collosal amount of feedback employed to lower the inherent distortion in a class B output stage. However if you use a class A amp then far less feedback is needed to get rid of distortion & you still get a high damping factor due to the inherent nature of the output stage & they sound great :eyebrows:

Thanks Mark. It's always interesting to have what you can hear explained using technical facts. :cool:It's also nice to know I was thinking along the right lines. I can't wait to get my valve amp up and running again. It's on the operating table at the moment getting some upgrades done which I'm hoping will take it up a few notches and maybe surpass my mono-blocks. :eyebrows:

[Trumpetman]

Butuz:

How does it sound? Warm? Much or little bass?

I have seen that the power amp is exactly the same one as the one that sits in the integrated, so nice if u could explain the above, and tell us of its signature sound

[Butuz]

I'll be honest I find things like that difficult to describe as I am not very experienced and have not had the vast array of kit that many people on here have had.

The amp is very detailed and seems to have a nice wide soundstage. It is also very balanced nice low tight bass and good mids and treble too. I don't really find it warm or cold or harsh or anything else - just right. Class a mode tighten up the bass even more compared to ab and is well worth the extra heat and electricity.

I think the amp outclasses the rest of my kit and would love to hear it plugged into much mod expensive source and speakers.

I am very happy and for the money it is unbelievable quality.

Why not get one on home demo?? What I think doesn't matter a jot compared to wha you think of it plugged into your own kit in your own room.....

Butuz

Butuz