"Perception trumps reality nearly all the time"

[Neil McCauley]

Is this an accurate summation of equipment evaluation – or is it a bit too cynical? Frankly, I'm not sure. But I'm open to being enlightened. Thank you. H.

[Tim]

I was watching that myself Howard and was sorely tempted, but timing was all wrong cash wise. Someone got an excellent buy there for sure.

[The Grand Wazoo]

"Perception trumps reality nearly all the time"

I'd say you were possibly fairly close to the mark there Howard, but then I'm a bit cynical too. Maybe it would be more true if you had said "Perception and preconception trumps reality nearly all the time"

[Neil McCauley]

I'd say you were possibly fairly close to the mark there Howard, but then I'm a bit cynical too. Maybe it would be more true if you had said "Perception and preconception trumps reality nearly all the time"

You've made a fine point there IMHO and I thank you for it. In fact your modification substantially improves the quality of the assertion. Let's see how this thread progresses. Fun here isn't it? No irony intended.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'd also be interested to hear what others might think.

[John]

I tend to see perception as how we percieve and make sense of information,this will be unique to each person.
When I used to do counselling I often thought thata person starts to change when they percieve whatever happening in a different light (sorry a bit of track here)

[RochaCullen]

I'd say you were possibly fairly close to the mark there Howard, but then I'm a bit cynical too. Maybe it would be more true if you had said "Perception and preconception trumps reality nearly all the time"

This could easily drift into an existentialist conversation. "I think therefore I am..."

The fact is that what happens around us is processed via a set of relatively effective senses (when I say relatively, I mean most of our senses decay over time and so their effectiveness shifts). Context, condition, perspective and therefore perception do define what we know and understand of the world.

Our perception of the world is entirely formed by the organ between our two ears. And any predisposition, be that psychological or physical, that organ has affects how we percieve things.

[greenhomeelectronics]

I have always said that customer perception is the reality of a brand. You might have the best offering in the world but if the customer does not perceive it to be so then the offering has no value.
Psychologists talk of giraffes and jackals - giraffes are open minded and listen to suggestions, jackals are so busy looking for the negative that nothing positive sinks in or gets considered. I think it sums up a lot of people very well. I like to think I am a giraffe but in reality I have a lot of jackal in me. Hope that makes sense:scratch:
PS quality without the perception of such has as much significance as the dot above the "i" in the word "shit".
my 2p worth.

[magiccarpetride]

Is this an accurate summation of equipment evaluation – or is it a bit too cynical? Frankly, I'm not sure. But I'm open to being enlightened. Thank you. H.

Depends on how you define 'reality'. Who is the final arbiter who unambiguously confirms that something is 'reality', while something else isn't?

[Beobloke]

Depends on how you define 'reality'.

The best definition I ever heard of reality is that it is a "hallucination caused by lack of alcohol".

And on that thought, I'm going back to my second bottle of Suthwyk Ales' 'Liberation'. :cool:

[Neil McCauley]

This could easily drift into an existentialist conversation. "I think therefore I am..."

Ah right. That explains it 'cos I thought it was "I'm pink therefore I'm Spam" That's a relief.

[Reid Malenfant]

:D Well said :eyebrows:

[magiccarpetride]

The best definition I ever heard of reality is that it is a "hallucination caused by lack of alcohol".

And on that thought, I'm going back to my second bottle of Suthwyk Ales' 'Liberation'. :cool:

You can't be serious? Come on! Lack of alcohol?

[Reid Malenfant]

You can't be serious? Come on! Lack of alcohol?
I thought that was rather good actually :eyebrows:

Perception is an odd thing & frankly i don't think anyone will ever prove (or could ever come to that :eyebrows:) that what they see, hear or smell is the same as anyone else! In that respect we are all on our own unfortunately..

I suggest you think about the following ;) When we were children we were all taught about colours. We were no doubt shown a few, take the colour red for instance. Now we can all point out anything that is red (unless we are colour blind) but there is no way we can prove we are seeing the same thing! We are told that colour "X" is red so we all know it as red, but what you see may be totally different from me even if we call it the same thing :doh:

You just can't get in another persons head & see through their eyes to see if they see the same thing :rolleyes: No matter how you go about it you'll never be on the same page as we are all individuals.

[Neil McCauley]

I thought that was rather good actually :eyebrows: I suggest you think about the following ;) When we were children we were all taught about colours. We were no doubt shown a few, take the colour red for instance. Now we can all point out anything that is red (unless we are colour blind) but there is no way we can prove we are seeing the same thing! We are told that colour "X" is red so we all know it as red, but what you see may be totally different from me even if we call it the same thing :doh:

I've been thinking along similar lines for some years now – but was unable to express this as cogently as you have here. Thank you - and respect!

[Covenant]

But the OP referred to equipment evaluation. I think as you get older you learn to not expect too much of anything because you know you are going to be disappointed.
I remember years ago getting a Garrard Zero100 SB deck. It looked lovely and was my pride and joy until the painful reality hit home and I realised it was, in fact, a clanky old pile of crap.

[Neil McCauley]

But the OP referred to equipment evaluation. I think as you get older you learn to not expect too much of anything because you know you are going to be disappointed.
I remember years ago getting a Garrard Zero100 SB deck. It looked lovely and was my pride and joy until the painful reality hit home and I realised it was, in fact, a clanky old pile of crap.

I suppose a bit like getting Kylie Minogue and/or Wayne Rooney on the teams in University Challenge or Master-Mind

[Ergoline]

I almost have a bachelor's in marketing (graduating in May), so I can provide a very cynical view on this.

Perception is nearly everything. Placebo effect as a manifestation of suggestion, expectation bias, surroundings, etc. can override even our most powerful primary senses. You can give a room full of people a sugar pill, tell them what it is, but then tell them it will make them see vivid colors, and many people will start seeing vivid colors. It doesn't make them dumb, it makes them human and subject to the same distortions we all are.

There's a reason why liquor and perfume manufacturers opt for an expensive bottle, and there's a reason why small premium goods come in heavy-weight glossy laminated boxes. Perception of quality = quality, as long as the good in question doesn't behave in an easily observable way that shatters that perception.

The same thing applies in audio. You don't need an ultra thick glossy veneer on your loudspeakers, you don't need a half inch thick milled faceplate on your amplifier, and salesman are taught key phrases and techniques from manufacturers for a reason. In a controlled double blind test could you reliably distinguish components? Maybe, maybe not. Are audio manufacturers cheats? No more than any other firms in any other industry. It's how sales are made, brand identities are created, and consumer loyalty is won. Are there some guys out there who wish they didn't have to? Probably, but when everyone else is doing it you have to play the game.

Please note, I don't think our hobby is a fraud and don't intend to come off that way. :)

[Alex_UK]

Great post Jason. I'm sure we all like to think we're not affected in this way, but it is inevitable to some degree.

[Effem]

I almost have a bachelor's in marketing (graduating in May), so I can provide a very cynical view on this.

Perception is nearly everything. Placebo effect as a manifestation of suggestion, expectation bias, surroundings, etc. can override even our most powerful primary senses. You can give a room full of people a sugar pill, tell them what it is, but then tell them it will make them see vivid colors, and many people will start seeing vivid colors. It doesn't make them dumb, it makes them human and subject to the same distortions we all are.

Valid statement Jason, but, placebo has an incredibly short shelf life and is not reusable ad infinitum. As far as I am aware, there is only ONE known case study where placebo was proven effective more than once and certainly not more than twice.



There's a reason why liquor and perfume manufacturers opt for an expensive bottle, and there's a reason why small premium goods come in heavy-weight glossy laminated boxes. Perception of quality = quality, as long as the good in question doesn't behave in an easily observable way that shatters that perception.

It is that PERCEPTION and therefore the resultant desire that the marketers are tasked to achieve, whereas the engineers are tasked to provide the ACTUAL quality, then for the accounts to screw up completely :lol: A good example of that is toilet roll; It has a specific purpose that we need not go into right now, but if it was solely marketed as such then we would probably revert to using newspaper and not buy the fluffy scented gaudily coloured and expensive ones.



The same thing applies in audio. You don't need an ultra thick glossy veneer on your loudspeakers, you don't need a half inch thick milled faceplate on your amplifier, and salesman are taught key phrases and techniques from manufacturers for a reason.

I beg to differ here. A glossy veneer or a half inch thick milled plate may not be an essential for me when it comes to sound quality, but it becomes essential when the missus points to the recycled banana box speaker cabinets and says "You aint bringing that hideous looking crap into our home!", plus it also may matter in residual values come resale time to other individuals.



In a controlled double blind test could you reliably distinguish components? Maybe, maybe not. Are audio manufacturers cheats? No more than any other firms in any other industry. It's how sales are made, brand identities are created, and consumer loyalty is won. Are there some guys out there who wish they didn't have to? Probably, but when everyone else is doing it you have to play the game.

Please note, I don't think our hobby is a fraud and don't intend to come off that way. :)

I think the whole concept of blind listening tests is badly flawed. The minute a "test" begins, the human in most cases will go into stress and therefore probably affect the outcome. Too little is known either about the way the senses INTERACT with each other and a good example of that is film music soundtracks. Watch a good film and really enjoy the soundtrack during the performance, then listen to the soundtrack on it's own and it sounds pants. I made that mistake many years ago when I first saw Jaws, then bought the LP and never ever again have I bought a film soundtrack :lol:

[magiccarpetride]

Too little is known either about the way the senses INTERACT with each other and a good example of that is film music soundtracks. Watch a good film and really enjoy the soundtrack during the performance, then listen to the soundtrack on it's own and it sounds pants.

You broach a very interesting subject, something that almost deserves its own thread. However, since the topic of this thread is perception vs assumed, hypothesized 'objective' state of affairs, this subject fits nicely in.

This has been happening to me all the time. I would watch a movie, and suddenly notice how the background music in the movie sounds fantastic. I would then immediately (for some reason), make a quick mental comparison with the quality of the music presentation in the movie vs. the quality I'm getting when listening to music only. I would often get to a conclusion that, for some reason, the music in the movie has better presentation than my regular audiophile setup.

Why is that surprising to me? Well, what's puzzling is that when I'm watching a DVD on my Playstation 3, I think I'm getting really good sound quality. However, when I'm listening to a CD on the same player, I find the presentation seriously lacking when compared to the same CD played through my Logitech Squeezebox Touch.

So, according to the above math, there is no way that a soundtrack on a DVD played on PS3 can beat the sound from the Touch.

What is the above telling me? There seems to be an additional emotional component at play. While watching a movie, my visual sense gets engaged, and tends to lend some acuity to my hearing sense, thus tricking me into thinking that I hear deeper, wider soundstage and overall, more present, more convincing soundscape.

But, as you said, if I obtain just the soundtrack CD and listen to it, suddenly the magic is gone.

[nat8808]

I was watching that myself Howard and was sorely tempted, but timing was all wrong cash wise. Someone got an excellent buy there for sure.

Out of interest, what were you watching and sorely tempted by?

"Perception trumps reality nearly all the time" - the statement isn't really clear enough for me to fully understand what it's saying, too broad.

Our only interaction with the outside world is purely perception. Reality is filtered by our senses and then our brain's perception is the only reality we know of. None of us perceive ultra-violet light as any kind of reality like a bee does for example - it's completely ignored and without a science lesson we wouldn't even know it existed.

Perhaps it would be clearer to say "Perception IS our reality".

It is a combination of necessity and every creature's ego that make us presume our individual perceptions are reality in the first place. Reading some heated threads on various forums seems to show that some are less aware of this than others!

Who said it with regard to hifi anyway?

[Tim]

Out of interest, what were you watching and sorely tempted by?
Yeah, ignore me - I didn't really read the post and clicked on Howards link to his blog to see he had just sold an MF P270 power amp on eBay, which was the top item on his blog! It's back on eBay now too and a sweet deal........... got my wires crossed a bit :(

[Neil McCauley]

Hi there. Thank you to you all for the responses. As I hoped, it’s all food for thought. Now then, if there is any interest then I’ll be happy to put finger to keyboard and expand on the subject.

I should I guess explain where I’m coming from. Few people other than my development team (7 currently) know that my primary day to day work is as an inventor or if you prefer (and some do) software architect. I specialise in specific types of commercial challenges that focus on the differences between memory – and understanding. This is carried out online. I have a Patent on this but truth be told, these days I cannot understand my own Patent! At least one of my inventions has probably had an influence on your day to day life albeit through the finance industry and possibly health and safety.

Anyway, these days I work on programmes that help people make better quality decisions, when I’m not selling hifi that is. It is for me a fascinating arena. As a consequence I have studied a lot of the more comprehensible academic works on how people make decisions. Or if you invert it, how – given the evidence – they so often make (or perhaps take; I never know the correct word in this context) decisions which work against them. I never applied my work to cock-ups in personal relationships though. I just couldn't get a handle on it because it defied mathematical analysis – and personally I hope it stays that way!

HiFi is of marginal interest to me in this respect but it might be of interest to some of you. If so, then I’ll see what I can do.

Nearly in conclusion, thank you once again for these interesting responses. Finally, I revisited the recipe I posted on the site recent. You can see it here > http://bit.ly/g82eap Sunday’s dinner for me and the ex Mrs. P went very well inasmuch as it all went to plan and no one was sick – which after all must be the litmus test by which these things should be judged.

[nat8808]

Yeah, go on - put fingers (both of the pointing ones) to keyboard.

I find that kind of thing interesting too although more recently am of the notion that people always make decisions that work for them at any given moment given the information available to them at that moment even if a bit later it turns out to work against them. That includes perhaps a moment of ego defense or a rush of adrenelin..

From the decisions you make, good and bad, you can work out what your subconcious needs are and then take steps to reframe or change those needs when they're proving a problem in the longer term.

In terms of buying something it starts to get complicated, all the different reasons/emotions playing behind each decision.