View Full Version : The Double-Edged Sword of High Fidelity...
Not really sure if this warrants its own thread, or even if it has been covered before, but here goes...
Since acquiring my Spendor SP1 loudspeakers about a month ago, I feel I finally have a "hi-fi" system, albeit still decidedly low-rent to compared to many others here. We'll keep the arguments for another thread, but finally I have a pair of speakers that can properly communicate what is coming from "upstream".
Mostly the experience has been fantastic, and I am very happy. However, there are two little niggles that keep coming back. Actually, they're quite big niggles!
Quality of the Recording
I am now finding that some albums which sounded fine, now have fundamental errors in the recording process, or in some cases, are just plain awful! Worst offenders seem to be early CDs - I am suspecting that this is where they were originally recorded for vinyl, but were transferred to CD without alteration. Typically, they sound bass-light and "brittle" - not especially nice, and make me keep questioning the system - then I'll play a different CD, which suddenly sounds fabulous, and then makes me realise it was the recording all along... This has also introduced me to "niggle #2" -
Hi-Fi Paranoia
Very much linked to the first niggle, but a quite different issue. Suddenly, out of the blue I'll notice a distorted sound (happened a little while ago on an Alicia Keys track) and I think "uh-oh, there's something wrong with my speakers" - but actually, it is again something on the recording which I had never noticed before! Still, I'm not convinced, until I've put my ear intently to each driver in turn, taken the CD out and given it a good clean, maybe even found the same track on Spotify! And then wiggled cables, listened to the drivers again, before finally accepting that everything is actually ok.
I'm sure I will get used to it eventually - just hoping this isn't the slippery slope to concentrating on the system, not the music... :eek:
Any other similar tales, and advice on how to overcome it? I suspect it is just a matter of time and "trusting" the system again after the changes, and I find I don't worry about it as much in direct proportion to the amount of red wine that has slipped past my lips! :cheers:
just hoping this isn't the slippery slope to concentrating on the system, not the music... :eek:
This is something I think I have been suffering from since joining AoS - I think I have got over it now though. After being away for the weekend and listening to music provided in many differing ways, it's been enlightening to come home and realise just how satisfying listening to music on my system is ...... not sure I'm completely cured yet though :(
Reid Malenfant
29-03-2011, 18:10
:lolsign: Welcome to the real world :ner:
I know where you are coming from precisely, i even got on to a guy that makes music, produces it & has his own record label because i found distortion on a recording - lots of it :eek:
Just to make sure i wasn't imagining it i tried it on other speakers & systems & while it was still there it was much more difficult to pick it up, but still could as i knew where to listen..
In the end i ripped it & sent a copy to a member on here who thoroughly analyzed the CD & i found i was vindicated ;)
Trust your equipment, if it makes nasty noises it'll be the recording :rolleyes:
magiccarpetride
29-03-2011, 18:27
Quality of the Recording
I am now finding that some albums which sounded fine, now have fundamental errors in the recording process, or in some cases, are just plain awful! Worst offenders seem to be early CDs - I am suspecting that this is where they were originally recorded for vinyl, but were transferred to CD without alteration. Typically, they sound bass-light and "brittle" - not especially nice, and make me keep questioning the system - then I'll play a different CD, which suddenly sounds fabulous, and then makes me realise it was the recording all along...
Hi Alex,
That effect might not always be related to inadequate recording. Often times, the tracking (i.e. recording) may be fine, but the mixing/mastering process may mess things up.
And conversely, some of those fabulously sounding CDs may not be the best recorded music, but the sound engineers knew how to mix it/master it, how to apply the syntactic sugar and make it sound palatable.
Good gear will reveal many of these things/flaws. I personally find that, once you encroach into this territory, you can adjust and polish the presentation with the right mix of cables/power conditioning/component isolation. Digital EQ is also a brave new territory that is not necessarily capable of only doing more harm than good (like the much dreaded analog EQ used to do).
What CAN get frustrating is that, once you reach the peak, or near-peak of what your system is capable of, you'll realize that pretty much each and every track has a completely different sonic character. That experience can be quite unnerving, but all it really means is that your system became so revealing, that it refuses to lie to you. That's the much sought after truth in sound reproduction (but the question then becomes, can you handle the truth?)
Soon you may come to notice, and hate, compressed recordings that seem to be the default standard of todays' offerings. Avoiding them will limit your musical choice in the future if you're not careful.
Reid Malenfant
29-03-2011, 18:46
Soon you may come to notice, and hate, compressed recordings that seem to be the default standard of todays' offerings. Avoiding them will limit your musical choice in the future if you're not careful.
I'm lucky in that respect, i don't really tend to listen to modern stuff & no pop, only more obscure stuff that tends to be treated a bit more how the music was intended to be.
I can imagine how awful a lot of recordings must sound having seen what they look like on Audacity :eek:
Dingdong
29-03-2011, 19:04
I've got the same feeling, Alex after getting a pair of DM2a's at Scalford. There are a lot of cd's I only tend to listen to in the car.
They have also shown up a few deficiencies upstream in my system. I've got some more turntable fettling to do.
Oh dear Alex, you’re in trouble now mate. You have caught a bad case of audiophilia :lol:
A good stereo system will allow you to listen to any recording, yep even the crap ones.
Not much point in having a system that you can only tolerate perfect recordings on coz they are very few. It may not be the art of sound or audiophilia mate but it is the art of listening to music.
An obvious comment (?)………..hmm, I don’t think so reading a great many of the posts here.
Oh Alex I sympathise. I have been through this. You get to a point where your kit reveals flaws in the recordings and then you're listening for flaws not the music. I first encountered this when I upgraded to pmc fb1+s and some albums that had been tolerable become utterly unlistenable (step forward Rolling Stones Exile...) and, if you're anything like me, you start flicking through familiar tracks to satisfy yourself they sound good.
This effect is significantly diminished since I changed to SA1s and a sub, though they make a decent recording shine. Dare I say I suspect your hifi journey isn't over (as neither, I suspect, is mine)...
Best
Thanks for the replies guys - looks like I'm doomed, then! :lol:
Reid Malenfant
29-03-2011, 20:04
<snip> Oh Alex I sympathise. I have been through this. You get to a point where your kit reveals flaws in the recordings and then you're listening for flaws not the music.
Actually i tend to disagree with this ;) I listen to the music as a good 99%+ of what i have appears to have no faults what so ever, i do agree though that when you play something that does have faults in the recording that you do tend to notice the fault & it does get kind of grating as you do get drawn to the sod...
However, the 99% of great stuff sounds vastly superior to what it would on a system that would gloss over faults so you didn't hear them :eyebrows:
Me, i like to hear it all be it warts or beauty.. In all honesty it'll only be certain parts of maybe a couple of tracks on a CD that'll offend. Like i say i don't listen to pop or very much of anything recorded after 1999/2000 so i'm not subject to the vile loudness wars, clipping etc that appears to be applied to modern recordings which would probably make me change my system :lolsign:
Thanks for the replies guys - looks like I'm doomed, then! :lol:
you certainly are, i thought it was my ears for a while when this started happening to me :scratch:, my wife still thinks it's in my head :mental:
Slightly more empatheitc :)
I think a lot of Hi Fi buffs go through this Alex. I think the answer probably lies in balance. A very revealing system is often not at all pleasant to listen to. Revealing, flat response speakers such as you now have may unfortunately exaggerate any shortcomings elsewhere. This is how they sell a lot of high end kit mate; they know you’ll be back coz they know when they sell you the stuff its going to do exactly the above. I think deciding early on what you want from your Hi Fi is half the art. Discovering what type of sound suits you and your listening habit and your musical tastes is half the art ;)
The other half of the art is not to pay the slightest bit of attention to what people on Hi Fi forums tell you :doh:
I abandoned the revealing/transparent/accurate route years ago. Nope, I don’t have Hi Fi by the standard of many here but I do have a musical system that will cope with most genres and recording quality; different strokes and all that.
So mate, get in yer can and go and visit Marco and Mark and John for example and listen in their surroundings to their kit which I think are probably excellent examples of different types of musical presentation to give you an idea of what is possible (at a price and at a modding skill level) and you’ll have a better idea of what direction you need to take to get a sound that suits you.
I agree with John a good system will allow you to cope with any style of music
In the end its about enjoying the music and not the system. On Sunday I had a five hour music session Lol
I generally refuse to buy most audiophile albums because I rarely enjoy the music (genreally some version of lame dinner jazz or obscure classical piece I would never listen too)
It’s a bit like the women thing. Warts and all sound cool but in time you’ll prolly get her a veil if you’re a gent and a paper bag if your not :eek:
Reid Malenfant
29-03-2011, 20:37
It’s a bit like the women thing. Warts and all sound cool but in time you’ll prolly get her a veil if you’re a gent and a paper bag if your not :eek:
Only after a good slapping with the ugly stick :eyebrows:
As i say, most of the time there is no problem at all & things sound wonderful...
If the recording is crap then why are people so afraid of hearing the crappiness? Do you want everything glossed over to make it pretty :scratch:
Spectral Morn
29-03-2011, 20:42
I had a very interesting chat at the Audio World Show with a young lady who works in the trade. She said that the problem with HiFi and audiophiles is that there comes a point when "it stops being about the music and it becomes all about the sound".
Oh how right she is. This is the danger we face in this hobby. Once you enter that realm of seeking the best sound you are doomed. Once it becomes about sound and not music it could be too late. I manage to skirt that reality and so far I can retain my love of music and dip my toes into the sound thing......i think ;)
Regards D S D L
Without wishing to get drawn into a major debate, most recordings are crap so if a bit of make up and pretty making helps sort them out well why not? Rose tinted glasses and all that; Its either that or thousands of pounds worth of cosmetic surgery :eek:
Course, you can swap for a better looking one but that’s all bound to go downhill eventually :doh:
Thanks again, guys. John (Welder) - as always, I appreciate your honesty. I do however find that for most of what I listen to, the current "revealing" system is absolutely fine - and actually, for my main favourites (female vocals and downtempo electronica) it is absolutely perfect - I'm surprised how well it copes with rock and pop too, and I hope I haven't "over egged the pudding" in my protestations - it is a minority of recordings that fall down, and I suspect that whatever "hi-fi" system they were played on, their shortcomings would be apparent.
But your absolutely right - although I have always thought "revealing/transparent/accurate" was my chosen path, it might not actually be what I am after, in the final analysis, and so some experience of the people's systems you suggest would be invaluable. (I have heard Mark's system, albeit only briefly - and whilst I was mightily impressed, in my "real world" it just wouldn't work - the vast majority of my listening has to fit in around a family, usually asleep, and so it has to work at low levels - not saying that Mark's doesn't - but with a system like that I would just want to turn up the wick all the time, I think!) I am hoping to get to Marco Towers at some point this year, (and not only just to listen to Marco's system in it's own environment) but I suspect to a degree, the lack of real-life limiting factors such as a sleeping wife and kids will be apparent when he fires up the Lockwoods!
I don't think I have a "problem" as such, more just a step along the evolutionary path that I have to take note of, and as you elude to - make a decision as to where I want to go, and if I am going to throw any more mulah at it! To be honest, the latter is unlikely - whilst I could "afford" to spend silly amounts on hi-fi, I'd much rather put the money into my Daughter's schooling fund, paying off the mortgage, or my pension fund where I hope it will do much more good than just satisfying my curiosity and rapidly ageing ears! :lol:
magiccarpetride
29-03-2011, 20:58
I had a very interesting chat at the Audio World Show with a young lady who works in the trade. She said that the problem with HiFi and audiophiles is that there comes a point when "it stops being about the music and it becomes all about the sound".
Oh how right she is. This is the danger we face in this hobby. Once you enter that realm of seeking the best sound you are doomed. Once it becomes about sound and not music it could be too late. I manage to skirt that reality and so far I can retain my love of music and dip my toes into the sound thing......i think ;)
Regards D S D L
I find the above argument to be a bit bogus. I don't think there is a need to antagonize music and sound, nor should we fall into the stupid trap of taking sides. After all, music and sound are one and the same thing.
It's like accusing gourmet connoisseurs that they're not into food. Only regular people munching at the trough are capable of enjoying their Big Macs, while gourmet aficionados are forever lost for food.
Bollocks! It's all about food, gourmet or otherwise. Everyone gets their fill.
Personally I am really happy at the moment. The last 6 months of upgrades speakers, dac and amp too has transformed my listening experience and I think I have got the balance right between hifi and enjoying the music. The good CDs sound great, the crap ones are still eminently listenable.
I listen for 6 hours per night with no fatigue. Even diabolically recorded shit like the coldplay cd I have on now my system doesn't make me want to turn it down or off.
I think if some stuff is fatiguing you or making you cringe then you ain't got the system quite right yet. More work to be done??
Butuz
. After all, music and sound are one and the same thing..
Nah not at all. My farts are defiantly sounds, they sure as he'll AIN'T music though ;)
Butuz
Reid Malenfant
29-03-2011, 21:03
Nah not at all. My farts are defiantly sounds, they sure as he'll AIN'T music though ;)
Butuz
:D
Great Butuz, just great! :lolsign:
magiccarpetride
29-03-2011, 21:20
Nah not at all. My farts are defiantly sounds, they sure as he'll AIN'T music though ;)
Butuz
You're being too literal here (always a sign of superior intelligence;) I've used the food and digestion analogy only as an analogy, not as a literal comparison to the sound.
anthonyTD
29-03-2011, 21:24
hi Alex,
SP1's are great speakers, [i still own a pair] but as you have found they are quite revealing, and as you have also, and quite rightly realised when you feed them with properly recorded and equalised music, they are very rewarding!
the draw back is, you will not be able to listen to a lot of albums that were originaly thought to be of decent quality, hopefully, you have enough well recorded music to make up for their failings.
Enjoy.:)
Anthony,TD...
Nah not at all. My farts are defiantly sounds, they sure as he'll AIN'T music though ;)
Butuz
That's a shame, I guess some of us have a more musical wind section than others. Me, after years of dedicated practice I've moved on to the brass section, natural horns of course. I'm not know as "trumpet trousers" for nothing.
Alex, Anthony said it all above really, but may I add my tuppence worth?
Without spending thousands, you can get your CD's at any rate to behave better. Try a Gator mk2, or get your mk1 modified if Stan can do it for you. This will give a standard output that won't upset the Creek. In two or three weeks, we'll get to compare your caiman with a real CD player and see just how good or bad it is with your recordings :lol: Methinks a Rega Saturn may be worth trying...
You know what to do with the vinyl - get the 401 properly fettled and plinthed and experiment further with the Techie mounting and isolation in general.
The 8000S may be too "HiFi" for todays listening and heaven knows about the Creek tbh. I bet a Croft integrated on the one hand, or Rega Elicit and new LFD at a higher price (oh yes, apparently there's a Sugden that doesn't sound all warm-n-wooly too) would comfortably open up the sound further and not major on reproducing compression.
As for the SP1's themselves, the LAST thing I'd ever say about them is that they're over-analytical or in the slightest bit "sterile." In fact, they're quite charming and sweet toned in a clean-n-clear way and really don't annihilate bad recordings like some "HiFi" monitors (ahem) do. I just think you need to tune your system around better speakers than you've ever had before in careful stages and I can promise you that the only major money you'll need to spend will be on the record playing aspect of it, as decent plinths, arms and phono stages aren't cheap I'm afraid (except Glenn's phono equipped preamps of course...;))
I think what Alex needs now is to bring some thermionic loveliness into his life, courtesy of Crofty (if Anthony's designs are out of reach), and then all will be well in his world..... ;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
29-03-2011, 22:15
I think you need two states of mind - one where you sit and play good recordings and enjoy the quality of the system, as well as the music and the second where you play good music, cr*ppily recorded and just enjoy the music. Forget about the hi-fi, listen to the music. You can even get on with another task while you listen.
I've been doing that all afternoon whilst sorting through a pile of CD's, all bought on impulse. Some are well recorded and I appreciated that. Others sounded rough but I enjoyed the music. Some sounded cr*p and the music didn't do anything for me and they are on the 'charity shop' pile...:doh:
Alex wrote:
“whilst I could "afford" to spend silly amounts on hi-fi,”
Oh dear mate, you were doing so well and now look what’s happened :D
Alex, Anthony said it all above really, but may I add my tuppence worth?
Without spending thousands, you can get your CD's at any rate to behave better. Try a Gator mk2, or get your mk1 modified if Stan can do it for you. This will give a standard output that won't upset the Creek. In two or three weeks, we'll get to compare your caiman with a real CD player and see just how good or bad it is with your recordings :lol: Methinks a Rega Saturn may be worth trying...
You know what to do with the vinyl - get the 401 properly fettled and plinthed and experiment further with the Techie mounting and isolation in general.
The 8000S may be too "HiFi" for todays listening and heaven knows about the Creek tbh. I bet a Croft integrated on the one hand, or Rega Elicit and new LFD at a higher price (oh yes, apparently there's a Sugden that doesn't sound all warm-n-wooly too) would comfortably open up the sound further and not major on reproducing compression.
As for the SP1's themselves, the LAST thing I'd ever say about them is that they're over-analytical or in the slightest bit "sterile." In fact, they're quite charming and sweet toned in a clean-n-clear way and really don't annihilate bad recordings like some "HiFi" monitors (ahem) do. I just think you need to tune your system around better speakers than you've ever had before in careful stages and I can promise you that the only major money you'll need to spend will be on the record playing aspect of it, as decent plinths, arms and phono stages aren't cheap I'm afraid (except Glenn's phono equipped preamps of course...;))
Thanks for the reply Dave, much appreciated. Perhaps I should clarify that I am in no way "complaining" about what I'm getting, quite the opposite, in fact. I think my Gator is now "Mk2" - certainly Stan took it back and gave it the "lower gain mod" which I think is what was the pre-cursor for "Gaitor Mk2" - it has certainly solved the problem I had with the original, and Stan's service was second to none, as usual (wouldn't even let me pay for return postage, let alone the mods!) I'm not closed to trying a new amp, but having tried both the 8000S direct from the Caiman in "power amp" mode as well as with the Creek as a pre, and just the 8000S on its own, I still prefer the Creek in isolation. I would still be interested in trying something else, along the lines you have suggested, but I am far from unhappy with the sound I am getting at the moment, and perhaps my original post didn't make that clear.
I guess for 80% of what I listen to the improvement has been monumental, but there are some recordings where their deficiencies are now glaringly obvious, to my limited experience, at least. I don't think for one minute that the SP1s are over analytical or sterile, but what they do do, as Anthony has suggested, is they are quite revealing, and I think that is what I am having to get used to - no more "boom and tizz" which to a degree flattered or masked a crap recording until I got the Spendors.
I think hifi_dave has summed it up quite well, with the "two states of mind" approach, although of course I won't know what albums go into each approach until I've had a good listen! :)
In summing up, I've definitely improved my system immeasurably with the SP1s, and I wasn't in any way inferring the contrary, just that I am now able to hear differences in an album that were glossed over with anything that had gone before. Your'e right with the 401 - definitely needs to get an elevated priority this year! :)
Alex wrote:
“whilst I could "afford" to spend silly amounts on hi-fi,”
Oh dear mate, you were doing so well and now look what’s happened :D
Indeed. Avatar doesn't really need new shoes, does she? Neither does the wife - after all, her feet aren't getting any bigger, are they? And I know the central heating is on the way out, but we can all wear a couple of extra jumpers next winter, can't we? Our cars will perform much better on "slicks" anyway, I'm sure the chances of getting pulled over these days by a real policeman are very remote... :lol:
Thing Fish
29-03-2011, 23:01
Or you could just go back to enjoying the music?
Hold fast Brother Alex!
As you have discovered, the greater the resolution of one’s equipment - the greater the perception and realisation of the recording problem; and hence a dissatisfaction.
And as you have found, early CD’s were simply transcriptions of master tapes used to cut vinyl, including all the necessary ‘limitations’. This gives the lie to those who say that digital is ‘artificial’. What you hear in those early CDs is the 'limitation' of vinyl.
I know you have an enormous amount of CD discs, and so will know that remastered CDs have a freshness and excitement of the vinyl on its first release. Unfortunately, you will also have become aware that a lot of modern CDs are appallingly compressed: a pandering to the MP3 generation, who seem to eschew any sense of dynamic range.
I have spent hundreds, if not thousands “chasing a dream”. It was fun at the time, but at the end of the day you have to remember it’s all only a means to an end. And that 'end' is the music and its message.
So enjoy your new speakers, but don’t get too hung up about the medium: “it's the message that matters”.
Enjoy
Hi Alex
I know what you mean and I think that hi-fi systems have a kind of bell-curve life span:
They start off being comprised of low end components that cannot resolve much detail so you hear the main thrust of the music and are not bothered by recording balance or errors; then they become 'hi-fi' and you start hearing problems with different recordings so you go through all sorts of hoops trying to achieve a balance that suits all music and recordings and fail (this is when you start listening to the system and not the music); finally, they come through when you get it all synergistic and singing and you find yourself just listening to the music again.
You should try classical music! The difference in balance, venue and quality of orchestra is vast. I can't tell you how many over-reverberant recordings I have which mask all the detail in the playing; all the chairs squeaking and music stands being hit; all the conductors and pianists who hum along with their playing; the few with very evident traffic noise from outside, or underground trains (try any Kingsway Hall recording). And yet, despite all that, listening to a good performance is simply magical.
I remember one time hearing a system at some dealer and playing a bunch of music I played some Dream Theater Images and Words and it sounded a bit harsh in the treble, (if anything the music can be slightly compressed on this album) anyway I remember the guy saying to me, well if you get a high end system your music taste will change. Needless to say he lost the deal Lol. I then went my own way based on systems I liked and trusting my own ears I have never regretted that decision.
A good few times I heard so called high end systems that have serious issues in sound, they made music lose its passion and soul
hifi_dave
30-03-2011, 09:51
I think you need to realise that many recordings, CD and LP, are just plain naff. Your higher resolution system will enable you to hear exactly what and why it is wrong and you can choose to just enjoy the music or listen to the faults.
It's when you have a mediocre system that the iffy recordings are more of a problem because you are never sure whether it's the recording or the system making a meal of it.
If your favourite music is not recorded well, then so be it but don't let it ruin your day. Just enjoy the music for what it is, secure in the knowledge that it isn't your system.:band:
technobear
30-03-2011, 17:41
When I hear something from the speakers that doesn't sound right, I reach for the headphones and 999 times out of 1000 it's on the recording.
Some CDs are just plain bad. I find them more tolerable if played at a lower level. Other times I turn them up anyway and just live with their faults.
Sometimes we experience harshness or fatigue simply because we are playing something louder than is natural. There's often a 'right' volume for each recording.
magiccarpetride
30-03-2011, 18:40
A good few times I heard so called high end systems that have serious issues in sound, they made music lose its passion and soul
Some people call this sentiment 'sour grapes'.
Thanks again Barry, Martin, John, Dave & Chris for the further responses. I shall try to just get back to enjoying the music, not that I'd stopped anyway!
Reid Malenfant
30-03-2011, 19:12
I shall try to just get back to enjoying the music, not that I'd stopped anyway!
Don't try, do :eyebrows: I enjoy it incredibly & i don't let a few piss poor recordings put me off.
In certain respects i'm pleased i can hear the dross as it means that when things are good you just know they are very good :cool:
Thanks again Barry, Martin, John, Dave & Chris for the further responses. I shall try to just get back to enjoying the music, not that I'd stopped anyway!
It's only ever about the music :cool:
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